What's Next To Increase Transgender Exposure To The Mainstream Cultural Lexicon

[RallyCola]

so...what's next?

we have had shock value stuff like springer, maury and howard stern. we have had gia darling, vaniity and others do "crossovers" to traditional mags. We have had negative press and such for legal cases. next year, the ts winner will be on stage at the AVN awards. we have had The Crying Game, Boys Don't Cry, Transamerica, Soldier's Girl, the Hangover 2 and a whole bunch of comedies on the big and small screen. We had the story of the transgendered olympic wannabe, the iron ladies, Chaz Bono, Kim Petras and also Andrej Pejic.

Still...with momentum building, there still is very little "mainstream" awareness of the tg community...whether it is purposeful or blind ignorance.

The question is...what will come first.

1) a high profile person in a serious relationship with an M2F transgendered person (because I think F2M is somehow more tolerable)

2) a high profile role going to an M2F transgendered actor that is NOT a transgendered role..i.e. not having to show cock like in the Hangover.

3) a solid music album/billboard style popularity for an M2F transgendered recording artist

4) something else?

[Stavros]

Transgendered people in films, on tv, on the stage, in books, in sport and popular culture have been around for several centuries albeit at different levels of intensity; there is no 'momentum' forward or otherwise. Just as the string quartet occupies a niche in classical music, which makes it a minority interest in classical music and an even smaller niche in music as a whole, so I don't see transgendered people, who by volume in human society are a minority, occupying anything other than a niche in popular culture as transgendered people, whether or not they can, in films or tv play roles not specific to being transgendered will remain occasional rather than normal.

The main thing is to hope that when transgendered people are in the public eye, it is not as figures of ridicule, but as people like everyone else, with something to offer that is as valid as everyone else.

[RallyCola]

see, i believe, or at least want to believe, that the niche is being broken and opened up. no?

[Merkurie]

Middle class suburban kids coming out to their parents.

It Gets Better - Parents of Transgender Children - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD8J5K5F-tY)

[GreyAshes]

well, in my opinion ,the united states public seems to be way too homophobic for an mtf to actually get accepted in a nontrans role. i doubt it will ever happen. film producers want an actor/actress that people can relate to and most americans wont be able to get over the "she used to be a guy " thing. A majority of amercans are too dumbed down for this to ever happen. Sure, some people and certain generations are getting more used to it , but its more about transpeople are getting more tolerated rather than actually being accepted. A big thing for me is that most mtf's and in some cases ftm's dont pass or are anything coming close to being attractive. This is always going to make people more judgmental cuz they are scared or whatever.

[sunairco]

I would think that the "next" advancement would be the opposite of #2. A transgendered individual appearing in a recurring role as a transgendered character that's treated just as a normal individual without calling attention to the fact. Just the inclusion of a transgendered person functioning normally as any other character would do wonders for acceptance. No dwelling on transgendered issues, concentrating on the character with a heavy handed plot component or making a poster child of them. Just simple inclusion presented as normal everyday character as a starter. If several shows and movies would do this with real transgendered individuals playing transparent characters that you know are transgendered, but otherwise just function as regular characters I think would be the next step. Not a paradigm shift, just inclusion. Look at Ellen or some other out characters like Portia. For the most part, outside of some religious wingnuts, most folks don't even give it a second thought anymore that they're gay. If several transgendered celebrities could achieve that transparency, that would be the "next" advancement.

[GroobySteven]

Transgendered people in films, on tv, on the stage, in books, in sport and popular culture have been around for several centuries albeit at different levels of intensity; there is no 'momentum' forward or otherwise. Just as the string quartet occupies a niche in classical music, which makes it a minority interest in classical music and an even smaller niche in music as a whole, so I don't see transgendered people, who by volume in human society are a minority, occupying anything other than a niche in popular culture as transgendered people, whether or not they can, in films or tv play roles not specific to being transgendered will remain occasional rather than normal.

The main thing is to hope that when transgendered people are in the public eye, it is not as figures of ridicule, but as people like everyone else, with something to offer that is as valid as everyone else.

Cool post.

[Stavros]

I would think that the "next" advancement would be the opposite of #2. A transgendered individual appearing in a recurring role as a transgendered character that's treated just as a normal individual without calling attention to the fact. Just the inclusion of a transgendered person functioning normally as any other character would do wonders for acceptance. No dwelling on transgendered issues, concentrating on the character with a heavy handed plot component or making a poster child of them. Just simple inclusion presented as normal everyday character as a starter. If several shows and movies would do this with real transgendered individuals playing transparent characters that you know are transgendered, but otherwise just function as regular characters I think would be the next step. Not a paradigm shift, just inclusion. Look at Ellen or some other out characters like Portia. For the most part, outside of some religious wingnuts, most folks don't even give it a second thought anymore that they're gay. If several transgendered celebrities could achieve that transparency, that would be the "next" advancement.

I am not saying you are wrong, but in an early episode of LA Law it emerged at the funeral of one of the senior lawyers who died, that he was in a relationship with a young transexual who delivered a eulogy to the shock of all concerned; and one of the detectives in Twin Peaks was a post-op transexual in episodes in the later phases of the tv series. One of the characters in the longest-running soap opera in the UK, Coronation street, Hayley Cropper, is a post-op transexual and has been there since 1988 although she is played by a woman. Does any of this mark a breakthough? Perhaps; is it part of a trend where transgendered people appear on a regular basis in programmes as police detectives, cooks, taxi drivers, mothers and fathers, teachers, night-club bouncers in Sydney...not sure.

[GreyAshes]

I am not saying you are wrong, but in an early episode of LA Law it emerged at the funeral of one of the senior lawyers who died, that he was in a relationship with a young transexual who delivered a eulogy to the shock of all concerned; and one of the detectives in Twin Peaks was a post-op transexual in episodes in the later phases of the tv series. One of the characters in the longest-running soap opera in the UK, Coronation street, Hayley Cropper, is a post-op transexual and has been there since 1988 although she is played by a woman. Does any of this mark a breakthough? Perhaps; is it part of a trend where transgendered people appear on a regular basis in programmes as police detectives, cooks, taxi drivers, mothers and fathers, teachers, night-club bouncers in Sydney...not sure.

I think this more has to do with the simple fact that trans people do exist and they do have normal lives and jobs and tv shows tend to express that by including them in the storylines, much like gay characters. i. e. Rebecca Romjin played a ts on "ugly betty".
however, there is a big difference between a female playing a tranny and a tranny playing a female. Its bullshit and not right, but it is what it is. Sure maybe this is helping transwomen by exposing them and showing that they are just like everyone else, but its a far cry from people accepting a transwoman as just a woman and a majority of the world will never see it that way, which is why youll prolly never see a famous ts actress playing female roles.

[JenniferParisHusband]

I don't know, I look overseas at places like Japan where TV hosts are Transsexual, or Korea where (admittedly for a very short period of activity) a group like Lady were popular and Harisu is still famous... I think there is a way to accept them as celebrities and entertainers that aren't in a niche way, but just as something different. I think you can have a society that appreciates TS ladies without the sexual roles, it just hasn't happened that anyone in the USA has created a role like that for someone.

I can't remember her name, but there was a show on ABC featuring a transsexual in a reoccuring role. I remember her being accepted to the extent of her appearances on the show. So yeah, it can be done. Even when you look at a Caroline Cossey, who does more "serious" types of interviews on Oprah rather than Maury, it's not as a "freak or the week" but as someone who has actually been through a bunch of stuff and came out the other end better off.

Having said all that, I have to agree with Ashley here. The problem isn't so much about the roles in music or entertainment or who they marry though, until the entire concept of someone being transsexual isn't seen as taboo by American society, the entire concept of acceptance as a celebrity is kind of moot. Because it would be fleeting, and never really accepted. Most Americans know Eddie Murphy gave a "car ride" to a TG, most people don't know of Tula these days. People will always dwell on the differences, whether they don't look feminine as a M2F, or are flamboyant in the way they act, or how they dress, or are just bigots who can't get past their own religious intollerance for anything different. Until you can change the impression of taboo, it's not going to happen. And it takes more than one breakthrough to do it.

It can happen, the 1950's and 1960's good luck having people accept inter-racial marriage, tattoos were really never accepted until the mid-80's, and only now are Gays and Lesbians starting to be seen in a better light. It might take generations, but it can be done. Best way I've found to build awareness was just to introduce my family and friends to the girl I was dating at the time. She was a sweetheart, once people got to know her, they loved her too. She even got most of the friends after the breakup.

[RallyCola]

+1 to everything JenniferParisHusband said

[sunairco]

My thinking here is classic Bernays logic. If you present something in a positive way, reinforce that presentation with the message comming from many different sources perhaps with slight variation, the collective reasoning integrates the sources and accepts it. In other words, if everyone says it's so, it must be. You may not be able to sway an older and less tolerant percentage, but you sure can sway a younger, more accepting and impressionable majority that are already predisposed to accepting things by their own reasoning and experience as opposed to the older generation's irrational, bipolar logic. The younger generation has grown up among gay and lesbian individuals, people of multicultural heriatage and people of color and personally know they are of no threat to them as opposed to the bogeyman cultural stereotypes of their elders that dare not associated with individuals culturally designated as pariahs.

[SammiValentine]

Transgendered people in films, on tv, on the stage, in books, in sport and popular culture have been around for several centuries albeit at different levels of intensity; there is no 'momentum' forward or otherwise. Just as the string quartet occupies a niche in classical music, which makes it a minority interest in classical music and an even smaller niche in music as a whole, so I don't see transgendered people, who by volume in human society are a minority, occupying anything other than a niche in popular culture as transgendered people, whether or not they can, in films or tv play roles not specific to being transgendered will remain occasional rather than normal.

The main thing is to hope that when transgendered people are in the public eye, it is not as figures of ridicule, but as people like everyone else, with something to offer that is as valid as everyone else.

Yea think thats nail on head. Has been a lot of positive work done by activits trying to educate the UK media, televisionh producers, comedians etc. Maybe Britain can break the mould, and others generally follow on.

[Stavros]

My thinking here is classic Bernays logic. If you present something in a positive way, reinforce that presentation with the message comming from many different sources perhaps with slight variation, the collective reasoning integrates the sources and accepts it. In other words, if everyone says it's so, it must be. You may not be able to sway an older and less tolerant percentage, but you sure can sway a younger, more accepting and impressionable majority that are already predisposed to accepting things by their own reasoning and experience as opposed to the older generation's irrational, bipolar logic. The younger generation has grown up among gay and lesbian individuals, people of multicultural heriatage and people of color and personally know they are of no threat to them as opposed to the bogeyman cultural stereotypes of their elders that dare not associated with individuals culturally designated as pariahs.

I think that is a good point, and you may be right over the next 10-20 years if tv for example does not retain its dominant status as far as what it is your generation does with its time; however, to take another related issue, how many Black or Asian or Hispanic actors take on roles which are not specific to them being one of those groups? Cop shows probably started it, but for example outside Shakespeare, if an Actor born in Hong Kong or Nigeria were to play King George VI in The King's Speech; or a play about Roosevelt or Richard Nixon, what would people say?

The one transexual whose film career lasted more than anyone else's and which wasn't based on her gender status in every film is Eva Robins in Italy.

It can be done, but I still don't see it becoming widespread in the way you suggest, but I would welcome it; and it may be that a more diverse and diffuse world of entertainment can sustain it in ways that once-dominant networks would not allow.

Interesting times.

[maxpower]

I can't remember her name, but there was a show on ABC featuring a transsexual in a reoccuring role. I remember her being accepted to the extent of her appearances on the show.


I believe you are thinking of Candis Cayne, who had a recurring role as the transgender mistress of a politician in ABC's short-lived series, Dirty, Sexy Money.

[buttslinger]

They did a "psychological" test of Washington DC Police Officers to see how much racism was going on within the ranks. They didn't ask "are you racist?" they asked tricky indirect questions. They found out from the results that race relations were pretty good...but they were surprised at how much all cops hate gays.

[buttslinger]

Here's a quick read, I hope it's not to painful or too serious a subject for this forum, but it helps shed some light on how hard life can be for the transgender population in DC. It's not as fun and carefree as you might be led to believe, or maybe as much as you'd like to believe.

http://thedccenter.org/facts_transgender.html

This is going to sound corny, but I think Good Times, and Sanford and Son did alot to further race relations in the US. You can't get more real than Redd Foxx. And Esther Rolle -awesome actress. TV brought them into living rooms. Before them you had Richard Pryor, and black people with white noses and lips. If a transgender person is walking down the street in a big coat, they're not transgender. They're people. J J and Lamont were black people.
Even most T-girls on this site aren't really trying to fit in, I don't think. They don't expect anyone who hasn't gone through what they have to understand. They've probably forgotten more than I'll ever know. Of course they have, unless I want to join the ranks I'm either a gawker or a jerk off, or whatever. They care as much about us as we care about each other, do we really want a TV show about us, do we? Do we want to expose ourselves to the world as "Shemale Lovers?"
During the time I've been here I've corresponded with an Escort/TG activist here in DC. She flipped from threatening me to offering all her help, like Jeckyll and Hyde! She finally asked me to leave her alone.

[JenniferParisHusband]

This is going to sound corny, but I think Good Times, and Sanford and Son did alot to further race relations in the US. You can't get more real than Redd Foxx...


Only "Elizabeth...I'm coming" takes on a different meaning here.

:joke:

[russtafa]

opening a chicken fanchise

[robertlouis]

Yea think thats nail on head. Has been a lot of positive work done by activits trying to educate the UK media, televisionh producers, comedians etc. Maybe Britain can break the mould, and others generally follow on.

I agree. While there is still plenty of homophobia and transphobia in the UK, the overall trend is towards tolerance, with gay marriage as a universal right due to become law, and all under a conservative administration.

As for the acting issue, surely it must depend on the individual's ability as an actor, whether male, female, gay, trans, disabled etc. Part of the problem, with some honourable exceptions like Candis Cayne, is that trans "actresses" have been featured for their relative novelty value as much as their talent. Fifty years ago you rarely saw black actors in the mainstream except when their main feature was their race. Nowadays race hardly seems to matter when roles are dished out. It's coming, but we need to be patient.

And there's no hope in the US until the Republicans drop their anti-women, anti-gay mediaeval attitudes. Their social policies belong in the dark ages. They're the Taliban in Brooks Bros suits and, lord help us, sweater vests.

[RallyCola]

And there's no hope in the US until the Republicans drop their anti-women, anti-gay mediaeval attitudes. Their social policies belong in the dark ages. They're the Taliban in Brooks Bros suits and, lord help us, sweater vests.

well, that's american politics. you know what they say...if you are a republican before 30, you have no heart. if you are not republican after 30, you have no brain.

that said though i don't think so-called political gains will be made until social gains are made. right now, there is a tremendous amount of ignorance when it comes to understanding transgenderism so widespread social consciousness needs to change.

[Stavros]

if you are not republican after 30, you have no brain

Would you like to re-phrase that?

And not all Republicans are wannabee Taliban; and that's not me defending them, just an observation over many years.

[onmyknees]

And there's no hope in the US until the Republicans drop their anti-women, anti-gay mediaeval attitudes. Their social policies belong in the dark ages. They're the Taliban in Brooks Bros suits and, lord help us, sweater vests.

I see....thanks for that enlightenment there RL. This is hardly about politics, but you as the resident know it all from afar, should grasp that. Is it intolerant or "anti gay" as you put it to favor civil unions over same sex marriage ? If so...you'd better get a memo to Hillary and Barry because that's their take on it, but of course you coyly avoid mentioning that in your endless political jabs. Gay marriage is slowly becoming the norm because the public is moving the politicians in that direction....not the other way around. That's what makes change lasting and legitimate..Got that? I'm not inclined to arm chair quarterback from 5000 miles away and tell you about all your numerous social ills in the UK...and how you should resolve them....but if I were to indulge, I don't think I'd be trying to effect social change by telling nearly half the British citizens they're from the dark ages and comparing them to an enemy that has killed and injured thousands of US soldiers. Your comparison is outrageous and repulsive. Your approach needs some finesse. Or maybe that was your attempt at humor? Doubtful...you're not funny, but you sure do curry favor now don't you? lol Don't you find it a tad ironic seeing yourself as enlightened and tolerant while calling those who don't agree with you Taliban? Why don't you write one of those corny folk songs about that? Art can be about irony and hypocrisy ...can't it? lol Work on that and get back to me before your next hiatus. Try it sometime and you might find more of what you're looking for ( tolerance) lol

[buttslinger]

The two-party system Thrives on Anti-Gay Pro-Gay issues.Both sides make tons of money on it. Marijuana was an issue in the sixties, now, Arnold is pro-herb. Gay marriage is a HUGE jump for the transgender community.

[robertlouis]

I see....thanks for that enlightenment there RL. This is hardly about politics, but you as the resident know it all from afar, should grasp that. Is it intolerant or "anti gay" as you put it to favor civil unions over same sex marriage ? If so...you'd better get a memo to Hillary and Barry because that's their take on it, but of course you coyly avoid mentioning that in your endless political jabs. Gay marriage is slowly becoming the norm because the public is moving the politicians in that direction....not the other way around. That's what makes change lasting and legitimate..Got that? I'm not inclined to arm chair quarterback from 5000 miles away and tell you about all your numerous social ills in the UK...and how you should resolve them....but if I were to indulge, I don't think I'd be trying to effect social change by telling nearly half the British citizens they're from the dark ages and comparing them to an enemy that has killed and injured thousands of US soldiers. Your comparison is outrageous and repulsive. Your approach needs some finesse. Or maybe that was your attempt at humor? Doubtful...you're not funny, but you sure do curry favor now don't you? lol Don't you find it a tad ironic seeing yourself as enlightened and tolerant while calling those who don't agree with you Taliban? Why don't you write one of those corny folk songs about that? Art can be about irony and hypocrisy ...can't it? lol Work on that and get back to me before your next hiatus. Try it sometime and you might find more of what you're looking for ( tolerance) lol

If there is a platform for gay marriage in the US as you claim, then why are there Republican-sponsored campaigns in the few states that currently have it to have it abolished again and little apparent appetite to introduce it elsewhere? And a major party whose main mouthpieces seem to spend a great deal of time condemning gays and are also hitting on women's rights - surely they believe that there's a constituency out there prepared to vote for them or they wouldn't be peddling such a vile and yes, fundamentalist line.

And I'll remind you yet again that here in the UK it's a conservative government which is putting together the legislation to put gay marriage on the statute book. I struggle to understand how you can write compliments about the tgirls who grace these pages while at the same time actively promoting a political philosophy that would potentially close down sites like this and possibly put programmes in place to pray the gay away, whatever the f*ck that means. As for making rape victims carry their babies to full term, well, words fail me. If you're prepared to disavow the extreme pronouncements of the bigots you support, we can have a dialogue. Otherwise you have no credibility, nor do you belong here.

As long as the bigot Santorum remains an apparently credible candidate and the rest of the dwarves contending for the Republican ticket try to keep up with his primitivism that's how a large part of the US comes across right now - with attitudes better suited to the intolerant regimes that you affect to despise for their backwardness. I'm not the hypocrite here, omk, you are.

[yodajazz]

Here was an interesting way a person brought exposure to the t community. This fulltime girl, made it to ghe top 35 of a 'male idol' tv program. She sang as a girl also.

刘著�都唱区准决赛50进35 《浮�》 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syy3JRR3wIw)

Here's one where she sings and plays.
著�原创-----完整版《飘》-320x240.avi - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM1AQjGNVyY)

[Stavros]

The original impetus for this thread was the argument that there could be 'forward momentum' bringing transgendered people in from the margins into the mainstream. I have expressed some scepticism about this. Maybe the forward momentum on this topic should concern the changing forms of information and communication, and whether or not we are moving into a world where entertainment and information are not just more diffused, but so diffused as to remove a centre occupying a 'mainstream'. It must depend on how people see the world of communications developing over the next ten years as today's teenagers with social networking skills I don't have create new forms of communication. Maybe this thread should be informed by people in their late teens and early 20s, as this is the next generation of entrepreneurs as well as consumers.

[yodajazz]

I see....thanks for that enlightenment there RL. This is hardly about politics, but you as the resident know it all from afar, should grasp that. Is it intolerant or "anti gay" as you put it to favor civil unions over same sex marriage ? If so...you'd better get a memo to Hillary and Barry because that's their take on it, but of course you coyly avoid mentioning that in your endless political jabs. Gay marriage is slowly becoming the norm because the public is moving the politicians in that direction....not the other way around. That's what makes change lasting and legitimate..Got that? I'm not inclined to arm chair quarterback from 5000 miles away and tell you about all your numerous social ills in the UK...and how you should resolve them....but if I were to indulge, I don't think I'd be trying to effect social change by telling nearly half the British citizens they're from the dark ages and comparing them to an enemy that has killed and injured thousands of US soldiers. Your comparison is outrageous and repulsive. Your approach needs some finesse. Or maybe that was your attempt at humor? Doubtful...you're not funny, but you sure do curry favor now don't you? lol Don't you find it a tad ironic seeing yourself as enlightened and tolerant while calling those who don't agree with you Taliban? Why don't you write one of those corny folk songs about that? Art can be about irony and hypocrisy ...can't it? lol Work on that and get back to me before your next hiatus. Try it sometime and you might find more of what you're looking for ( tolerance) lol

Yes there are paralells between the Taliban, and the fundamentalist wing, (religious right) in the US. Both say that certain ascpects of their religious texts, should be reflected in civil law. Even when those laws abridge the rights of large numbers of it's citizens. There is the legal right to practice one's religion is the US, but not if its practice, limits the rights of others. Both the Taliban, and the US Religious Right, tend to ignore (or de-emphasize), the parts of their holy texts, that teach tolerence.

I wont dispute that tolerance towards gay and transgender rights are gaining in acceptance here, with the general public. However, we know that anti gay/t feeling have been used politically to bring out Republican voters, with the goal of giving support to other issues and candidates. There exists a letter from Bush's 2004 state campaign chairman, here in Ohio, that states that. (I posted a copy of it in another thread).

So this brings me to Robert Louis's post


If there is a platform for gay marriage in the US as you claim, then why are there Republican-sponsored campaigns in the few states that currently have it to have it abolished again and little apparent appetite to introduce it elsewhere? And a major party whose main mouthpieces seem to spend a great deal of time condemning gays and are also hitting on women's rights - surely they believe that there's a constituency out there prepared to vote for them or they wouldn't be peddling such a vile and yes, fundamentalist line.

And I'll remind you yet again that here in the UK it's a conservative government which is putting together the legislation to put gay marriage on the statute book. I struggle to understand how you can write compliments about the tgirls who grace these pages while at the same time actively promoting a political philosophy that would potentially close down sites like this and possibly put programmes in place to pray the gay away, whatever the f*ck that means. As for making rape victims carry their babies to full term, well, words fail me. If you're prepared to disavow the extreme pronouncements of the bigots you support, we can have a dialogue. Otherwise you have no credibility, nor do you belong here.

As long as the bigot Santorum remains an apparently credible candidate and the rest of the dwarves contending for the Republican ticket try to keep up with his primitivism that's how a large part of the US comes across right now - with attitudes better suited to the intolerant regimes that you affect to despise for their backwardness. I'm not the hypocrite here, omk, you are.

Thanks for your post. Pointing out that UK Conservatives, are not anti gay, is a valuable point of info. Unlike some others, I see input from those outside of the US as valuable, in gaining a wider perspective.

While I have the floor, so to speak, I want to say this. I have probably have stated it here, elsewhere. From my understanding, every sura (chapter equivalent to Bible 'books") in the Koran, starts with the acknowledgement of the concept that God (Allah) is merciful, except one. Some scholar even argue, that the one that does not start with that, was not meant to be a full sura, and was probably part of another. So this is to say, that Mercy, as a principle should be an important part of one philosophy, who calls themself a Muslim. Understanding rules, is less important that the practice of the principles. This was an important part of the teachings of Jesus. Thus those who call themselves Christians, should be continually evaluating their lives, according to his teachings about Love, freeing oneself from judging others, and other such things. I see these things as part of the failings of the US Religious Right.

[robertlouis]

Yes there are paralells between the Taliban, and the fundamentalist wing, (religious right) in the US. Both say that certain ascpects of their religious texts, should be reflected in civil law. Even when those laws abridge the rights of large numbers of it's citizens. There is the legal right to practice one's religion is the US, but not if its practice, limits the rights of others. Both the Taliban, and the US Religious Right, tend to ignore (or de-emphasize), the parts of their holy texts, that teach tolerence.

I wont dispute that tolerance towards gay and transgender rights are gaining in acceptance here, with the general public. However, we know that anti gay/t feeling have been used politically to bring out Republican voters, with the goal of giving support to other issues and candidates. There exists a letter from Bush's 2004 state campaign chairman, here in Ohio, that states that. (I posted a copy of it in another thread).

So this brings me to Robert Louis's post



Thanks for your post. Pointing out that UK Conservatives, are not anti gay, is a valuable point of info. Unlike some others, I see input from those outside of the US as valuable, in gaining a wider perspective.

While I have the floor, so to speak, I want to say this. I have probably have stated it here, elsewhere. From my understanding, every sura (chapter equivalent to Bible 'books") in the Koran, starts with the acknowledgement of the concept that God (Allah) is merciful, except one. Some scholar even argue, that the one that does not start with that, was not meant to be a full sura, and was probably part of another. So this is to say, that Mercy, as a principle should be an important part of one philosophy, who calls themself a Muslim. Understanding rules, is less important that the practice of the principles. This was an important part of the teachings of Jesus. Thus those who call themselves Christians, should be continually evaluating their lives, according to his teachings about Love, freeing oneself from judging others, and other such things. I see these things as part of the failings of the US Religious Right.

Thanks for that, Yoda. I guess the most obvious parallel that I see is that both extremist muslims and the US Christian right have done exactly the same thing, in that they have taken a gospel which propounds love and brotherhood and perverted it into a doctrine of hate and fear of "the other".

I don't see that there's anything intrinsically wrong in decrying both suicide bombings which destroy innocent lives on the one hand and assassinations of those who carry out legal abortions on the other as being two sides of the same obscene coin. Having a fanatical belief that you're right can never justify such actions.

[RallyCola]

if you are not republican after 30, you have no brain

Would you like to re-phrase that?

And not all Republicans are wannabee Taliban; and that's not me defending them, just an observation over many years.

nope. that's the saying.

a republican before 30 has to heart
a non-republican after 30 has no brain.

i'm not saying i agree with that...it is just a phrase that's supposed to say that as a wide-eyed nubile youth, you should be liberal and think you can change the world, but that as you get older, you get more conservative and such.

again, though...governmental policy usually follows cultural cues, so i believe policy will remain antiquated for some time to come

[buttslinger]

Winston Churchill said that!

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

"Dogs look up to us, Cats look down on us, and Pigs treat us as equals"