Your heart tells you God exists.

[derrick60053]

Sam Harris destroys these myths. Please post superior counter arguments to the logic (and beautiful truths) presented below. I want to believe he is wrong. Help me.

The Nightline Face-Off: Does God Have a Future? (1 of 12) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-8-Yxdphsg)

The God Debate II: Harris vs. Craig - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaHXKLRKzg)

Does God Exist? A debate between Sam Harris and Rabbi David Wolpe (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2329504685124044436)#

[SammiValentine]

God is a DJ

[derrick60053]

Thanks for adding to the conversation. Brilliant response!

[SammiValentine]

i cant get no sleep :(

[derrick60053]

Does your lack of sleep preclude you from commenting on the the Dead Kennedys...
Dead Kennedys - I Fought the Law - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dB_ubVAnGw)

[maaarc]

Thanks for adding to the conversation. Brilliant response!

Relax Derrick - you came to a pornography forum looking for a dialog concerning the existence of God???

your heart is already speaking to you and you refuse to listen.

if you wanna listen to a bunch of babbling egg heads knock your self out -
but the proof is all right here. her name is Rumika and she is in fact proof of Gods existence.
only a merciful and generous God could create something so beautiful and DELICIOUS as this - thank you God :)

[MdR Dave]

Seriously, Derrick- boobies will redeem you. Post something.

[derrick60053]

Sorry for asking about such trivial matters. Your brilliant response has enlightened us all.

[MdR Dave]

Teste, aren't you?

[irvin66]

Hallelujah Jesus is alive, why does everything go to hell. :evil:

[GroobySteven]

In 5 years and a dozen posts, this is the best you can do?

[Nikka]

why u posting this shit on a porn forum?

[GroobySteven]

why u posting this shit on a porn forum?

God likes porn, that's why he created it.

[Richctdude]

Relax Derrick - you came to a pornography forum looking for a dialog concerning the existence of God???

your heart is already speaking to you and you refuse to listen.

if you wanna listen to a bunch of babbling egg heads knock your self out -
but the proof is all right here. her name is Rumika and she is in fact proof of Gods existence.
only a merciful and generous God could create something so beautiful and DELICIOUS as this - thank you God :)

WOW amazing!!

[SammiValentine]

your all.... faitheless!?

[robertlouis]

your all.... faitheless!?

Yeth, ever thince I uthed that rathor that wath too sharp.....

[loveboof]

God is a DJ

Far more important than all this 'God' nonsense, is that your arse in your avatar Sammi?

[SammiValentine]

Far more important than all this 'God' nonsense, is that your arse in your avatar Sammi?

of course :D

[loveboof]

of course :D

Hmm. Well done? .. lol

(your bum looks awesome! :) )

[SammiValentine]

Hmm. Well done? .. lol

(your bum looks awesome! :) )


ta fella xx

[Stavros]

And yet, in a debate with the Archbishop of Canterbury, even Richard Dawkins had to admit that he is not sure that God does not exist...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9102740/Richard-Dawkins-I-cant-be-sure-God-does-not-exist.html

[firkin]

"Beer is proof that God exists, and he loves us."
Ben Franklin

End of the debate, now back to the TnA

:cheers:

[SunshyneMonroe]

Thanks for the post its been a very good watch so far...

[JohnnyVee]

Christianity in a nutshell - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n16PpvdpMXo)

[loren]

"Beer is proof that God exists, and he loves us."
Ben Franklin

End of the debate, now back to the TnA

:cheers:
how true lol

[maaarc]

"Beer is proof that God exists, and he loves us."
Ben Franklin

End of the debate, now back to the TnA

:cheers:

Ben was a very wise and good man :Bowdown: whenever, I have his picture in my wallet all the girls like me and even I can get laid YaY :)

[Nicole Dupre]

My heart tells me god does not exist.

Priest laughs when questioned about his money-making scheme ruining the lives of children - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hFW_z75IRo)

[TempestTS]

All the old God's are dead... all hail the new flesh.

[mrtrebus]

And yet, in a debate with the Archbishop of Canterbury, even Richard Dawkins had to admit that he is not sure that God does not exist...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9102740/Richard-Dawkins-I-cant-be-sure-God-does-not-exist.html
& yet religious people refuse to allow room for doubt despite no evidence for god, at all!

[trish]

And yet, in a debate with the Archbishop of Canterbury, even Richard Dawkins had to admit that he is not sure that God does not exist...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9102740/Richard-Dawkins-I-cant-be-sure-God-does-not-exist.htmlDawkins' position in that instance is quite admirable. His atheism is not a matter of faith but of reason. With faith one can commit to a belief and be 100% certain of it's truth. But what is the value of a 100% commitment to the truth of a proposition that can still be wrong?

I have some confidence in the laws of aerodynamics. Enough confidence that I'm willing at times to travel by jet between distant cities. The confidence comes from theory and practice; i.e. an understanding of the mathematics of lift and experiential knowledge that planes do fly and I've been in them.

Now in order to take the risk of flying I need more than confidence in the laws of aerodynamics, I also need confidence in the engineer that built the plane, the airline's willingness to maintain its fleet, the pilot, the controllers, the schedulers, etc. etc. etc. Some of that confidence comes again from experience with all those things. But some of that confidence is simply faith that people will do their jobs competently and responsibly. That faith is not 100%.

Beware of anyone who says they are absolutely 100% certain of their claims. They may in fact be absolutely 100% certain, but they have no good reason to be.

I see no reasonable theory of gods that is explanatory in any way, nor do I see any objective evidence that gods exist. I see no universal agreement on even what a god would be. Specific conceptualizations of the gods are easy to debunk. Like Dawkins, I'm not 100% certain the Greek pantheon doesn't exist. But I'm confident enough that you won't catch me wasting my time sacrificing to Athena. The same goes for Jehovah, Odin, Thor, Christ or the gods of Easter Island. For all practical purposes you can call me an atheist.

[Stavros]

With faith one can commit to a belief and be 100% certain of it's truth.

Yes, but...you will find, Trish that a lot of people who belong to a religion have doubts too. Some fascinating studies of holocaust survivors have discovered that many had their faith in God shaken by their experiences, be it in a camp or in one of the European countries from which they escaped. In the long term they continued to identify as Jewish and observe the rituals, but an absolute faith in what at the time they believed to be an inactive, even indifferent God, may have taken time to heal.

Maybe the question for believers is why they believe God not only exists, but is always there and always involved -is it not possible God did indeed create the universe and everything in it, but does not take a direct role in anything? When people assumed there must be Gods because of the power of nature and our dependence on natural things -like water and air- to survive, it did not take long for other people to realise that if they could appropriate the concept of -God/absolute power- for themselves their social power would increase. God's representatives on earth have usually selected themselves; God has not endorsed them, but has the luxury of remaining supremely silent and untouchable. In any event, faith does not need to be rational to be what people believe to be true.

[EvonRose]

To be fair People cannot justify dislike on religious people just because some groups are extreme, I have met many open and loving christians, and some not so, I also met a few loving and open non believers and some rude, arrogant, people. People are people and are likely to be equal when it comes to peace, or chaos.... anyone man, woman, christians, atheist, buddhist etc can murder, cheat, steal, lie...

Atheism is a system in itself. it is a belief.

I find people to be most intelligent when they open their horizons as oppose to just being black and white.

[Ecstatic]

Buddha once entered a village. A man in the morning asked him, "Does God Exist?"

Buddha replied, "No, absolutely not!"

In the afternoon, another man approached and posed the same question, "Does God exist?'

Buddha said, "Of course yes!"


In the evening, the third man asked the same question

The enlightened one closed His eyes and remained silent.

The inquirer too closed his eyes. Something transpired and the man bent forward and touched the feet of Buddha reverentially. He said, "You are the first man who has answered my question" and left feeling grateful.

Ananda, Buddha's attendant who was a witness, was confused about the conflicting answers of the master to the same question. When Buddha was retiring to bed, he told Him, "Please do be more compassionate on me as I am puzzled. The other three people have not listened to your different answers, but I have. So please dispel my confusion."

The enlightened one opened up. "In the first place, My answers to their question had nothing to do with God. My approach was rather towards the questioner than the question. The first person who approached me was a theist, a believer in God. The second was an atheist, who believed in the absence of God. The person who believed in God wanted to confirm his belief about God.

All beliefs are barriers to the realization of the truth. Theist or atheists they are all tied to their own beliefs and systems!

As Ananda listened intently, Buddha continued, "The third man was a real enquirer. He was not concerned with the existence or non existence of God. He wanted the bare truth. So I remained silent looking within. My message to him was to be silent and know. There is no need to raise any questions as it is not a question to be answered, rather a quest or a thirst. Thus he simply followed me and in his silence, when he looked within, something transpired. He was so overwhelmed with gratitude as I did not provide any intellectual answer but the very taste of the existential truth!"

[trish]

Yes, but...you will find, Trish that a lot of people who belong to a religion have doubts too.I take no issue with people who doubt. Doubt can be handled in many different ways. One can keep it at distance and pray for faith. Or one can explore the source of doubt with reason and observation. Sometimes rational investigation can dispel doubt and confirm belief; but when it doesn't one has to have the strength to give up belief.

I once had a fortune cookie that produced, "I doubt, therefore I might be."


faith does not need to be rational to be what people believe to be true. But mere belief in the truth of a claim doesn't make it more likely to be true; rational support does.

[mrtrebus]

To be fair People cannot justify dislike on religious people just because some groups are extreme, I have met many open and loving christians, and some not so, I also met a few loving and open non believers and some rude, arrogant, people. People are people and are likely to be equal when it comes to peace, or chaos.... anyone man, woman, christians, atheist, buddhist etc can murder, cheat, steal, lie...

Atheism is a system in itself. it is a belief.

I find people to be most intelligent when they open their horizons as oppose to just being black and white.

This may be true, but religion would be fine if believers kept it to themselves rather than trying to force it on others or condemn others for their lifestyles. Sadly many people of faith cannot help themselves.

[trish]

Atheism is a system in itself. it is a belief. Actually I disagree. Bill Maher said one of the advantages of atheism is that "it requires so little of your time." It is simply non-belief in theism. That's it. No doctrines. No rituals. No jewelry. No special underwear. No special book. No creed. Anyone can be one, no baptism required. No indoctrination or catechism required. Atheism is more of a descriptor than a belief, you don't have to say you are one to be one. If you don't care for chocolate, you don't have to go around saying I'm not a chocolate lover.

[EvonRose]

This may be true, but religion would be fine if believers kept it to themselves rather than trying to force it on others or condemn others for their lifestyles. Sadly many people of faith cannot help themselves.

I don't think you know every believer to assume all of them do it. Believers or not open your eyes its all around you from politics, to television, to government, to religion everyone shoves their belief on everyone christians or not....

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in god because I don't think "god", as we generally define god, is conceivable. I think all religious experience can be better explained through science. I think the human nervous system has a built in chemically-fueled entertainment system which is where all puzzling metaphysical experiences originate, although I do believe in collective consciousness as well. Again, I believe science has those answers. I think seeking faith is a biological function, that the human brain wants to work on autopilot, and that we want god because the human nervous system doesn't want to be over-taxed. Questions generally create fear. The bigger the questions, the bigger the fears. Maybe that way of looking at things makes me a secular humanist? I dunno. But I don't pay attention to any of that stuff. So, maybe I'm just areligious, remaining openminded. I'm not sure. lol

[EvonRose]

Actually I disagree. Bill Maher said one of the advantages of atheism is that "it requires so little of your time." It is simply non-belief in theism. That's it. No doctrines. No rituals. No jewelry. No special underwear. No special book. No creed. Anyone can be one, no baptism required. No indoctrination or catechism required. Atheism is more of a descriptor than a belief, you don't have to say you are one to be one. If you don't care for chocolate, you don't have to go around saying I'm not a chocolate lover.

Sorry i meant to delete the "it is a belief" part but I do believe its a system of the absent of god, deities, or supernatural.

However, when arguing with a a believer atheist common argument made is ''if god exists, then why does god do bad things in the world?" If one is completely in disbelief god or religion should not be questioned because you already have the answer in you system of view, You believe there is no god, So instead of questioning "if" I think the best question is what? Believers are always going to contradict what atheist believe... And sometimes atheist with questions like this makes believers almost normal... with believers sometimes its best to let them share what they need I don't think there is anything wrong, but I see atheist love to attack them. This is my observation from my personal life...

I am liberal and I am not atheist or religious, I am someone who believes in the possibility if this vast universe. And take in consideration what science offers. But I can see many things positive with faith, but I can also see why atheist do not believe...

[mrtrebus]

I don't think you know every believer to assume all of them do it. Believers or not open your eyes its all around you from politics, to television, to government, to religion everyone shoves their belief on everyone christians or not....
I never said all I said many.

[trish]

"Agnostic-atheist" is an interesting way to put it. Just the juxtaposition of terms seems (to me) to say, "one who is technically agnostic about the general question of theism, certainly not a believer in the conventional conceptualizations of god, but is not overly concerned, interested, bothered or taxed anymore by the question; i.e. one who has reached beyond all that."

[EvonRose]

I never said all I said many.

There are many white male serial killers.... its still not a conclusive argument...

You said if "believers" i didn't read some, or many... I assume you meant in general...

[Stavros]

Some people are born into a religious setting -home, village, city- and do not choose; others choose to reject religion; yet others decide their lives are so spiritually impoverished they embrace it..viz Hegel's comments on the changing attitudes of his times when reason and science were in the acendancy.

"Time was when man had a heaven, decked and fitted out with endless wealth of thoughts and pictures. The significance of all that is, lay in the thread of light by which it was attached to heaven; instead of dwelling in the present as it is here and now, the eye glanced away over the present to the Divine, away, so to say, to a present that lies beyond. The mind’s gaze had to be directed under compulsion to what is earthly, and kept fixed there; and it has needed a long time to introduce that clearness, which only celestial realities had, into the crassness and confusion shrouding the sense of things earthly, and to make attention to the immediate present as such, which was called Experience, of interest and of value. Now we have apparently the need for the opposite of all this; man’s mind and interest are so deeply rooted in the earthly that we require a like power to have them raised above that level. His spirit shows such poverty of nature that it seems to long for the mere pitiful feeling of the divine in the abstract, and to get refreshment from that, like a wanderer in the desert craving for the merest mouthful of water. By the little which can thus satisfy the needs of the human spirit we can measure the extent of its loss." (Phenomenology of the Spirit).

[Nicole Dupre]

@ Trish That's why I said I might be "areligious"; I don't really give a shit. lol I'm spiritually eclectic, if anything. Wasn't Bertrand Russell labeled as an agnostic atheist? I don't know.

Oh, wait. That's right. Almost forgot. I'm actually a Subgenius. lol

[noble1337]

atheism isn't a belief.
i don't believe that there are invisible 100 foot tall monsters roaming the earth. Its not a belief that i dont, its a non-belief.
religions are making the wild claims without evidence, atheists arent....

[trish]

If there can be a "system" with a single tenant, okay atheism is a "system." But then so is non-belief in leprechauns.
when arguing with a a believer atheist common argument made is ''if god exists, then why does god do...This form of argument is known as reductio ad absurdum. It's used all the time by mathematicians, scientists, philosophers, lawyers etc. One of it's most common uses is to establish non-existence. For example, suppose there were a largest prime number N. Then the successor of the product of all the primes from 2 to N would have a prime factor larger than N. The contradiction shows no such N can exist. Prior non-belief in N doesn't preclude the use or validity of this argument.

[Nicole Dupre]

Seeing is believing is one hing. Believing you'll never see something is another.

[EvonRose]

If there can be a "system" with a single tenant, okay atheism is a "system." But then so is non-belief in leprechauns. This form of argument is known as reductio ad absurdum. It's used all the time by mathematicians, scientists, philosophers, lawyers etc. One of it's most common uses is to establish non-existence. For example, suppose there were a largest prime number N. Then the successor of the product of all the primes from 2 to N would have a prime factor larger than N. The contradiction shows no such N can exist. Prior belief in the non-existence of N doesn't preclude the use or validity of this argument.

I get it but atheist already know what the believers are going to say, for many years its the same answer nothing is gonna change... Im realistic questioning why god would do this is dumb, because in many ways atheist are somewhat realist. Atheist already know believers believe in the supernatural it's unrealistic so I can understand why they believe what they believe... But for an atheist who doesnt, with this argument sound just unrealistic to me... stop asking the same damn questions... lol...

Here is your answer why do bad things happen in the world? Because Humans are evil, they destroy... or sometimes mother nature needs to cleanse so flood, earthquakes, etc happen...

Like I said I see both points, but honey, if I get thrown in the lochness lake knowing there is a possibility of the lochness monster existing... I would be terrified... And I'm sure many would to believers or not...

[Nicole Dupre]

Some people are afraid to believe in things because they feel that donating their energy to it can make it become manifest. Some actually want to manifest things through disciplined belief. Tibetan Buddhists call those things tulpas. It's sort of like magic, and being afraid to dabble in it.

But some people don't believe in any of that stuff. Which, personally, I think requires an equal amount of faith. It requires faith to be firmly convinced that something won't happen or that it simply can't be.. unless you know... for sure. lol

[noble1337]

are you saying it requires faith to not believe in something that has no evidence to support it?

[Nicole Dupre]

are you saying it requires faith to not believe in something that has no evidence to support it?
You need faith in your own intellect I suppose. I don't know. Again, I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't believe I can know if god exists. I doubt I could comprehend god, and I doubt anyone else can either... if there was a god. lol

[Nicole Dupre]

I do have faith in my own intellect and common reality. I don't believe in god because I see no evidence of god or multiple gods.

[noble1337]

yeah, you are indeed rational.

but i think we need some theists for this discussion...

[trish]

if I get thrown in the lochness lake knowing there is a possibility of the lochness monster existing... I would be terrified... And I'm sure many would to believers or not... If I got thrown into Lochness I certainly wouldn't be worrying about being devoured by Nessie. I'd be more concerned with the intentions of the person or persons who threw me in the drink to begin with.

But I agree the arguments between atheists and theists are as old as the hills and at this point beyond tedious. In the U.S. these discussions arise over and over again because proselytizing fundamentalists can't keep their fingers out of government, healthcare and schools. Witness the to-do's about abortion, contraception and Darwin.

There is no rational argument that's so delicious it can seduce a true believer to quit their drug. One wishes non-believers would just quit trying. But then one also wishes the druggies would just be content shooting up at home and not insist on bringing it into the schools.

[Nicole Dupre]

yeah, you are indeed rational.

but i think we need some theists for this discussion...
Why? They can't prove anything. All they can do is claim a belief in god because they acknowledge consciousness. I see consciousness as a bio-chemical phenomenon.

It's like the Jesuits. The Jesuits are basically in charge of keeping an eye on everything outside of the Catholic dogma that they can't explain. It's like the Jesuits are in charge of the official Catholic disclaimers. lol The Jesuits deal with what we see in telescopes, and all the spooky stuff. Because on one hand they're saying their god is a supreme being, but on the other there's this conflict with the devil and demonic possession and yada yada yada. The Catholic church have no damn shame. lol But then again, neither do any of the other Abrahamic religions when it comes to crap like that.

[hippifried]

I think I'd be more worried about the immediacy of hypothermia in Loch Ness.

[trish]

I think I'd be more worried about the immediacy of hypothermia in Loch Ness.I thought of that too. I hope I'm not naked when they throw me in. Perhaps I'll be wearing a warm, form-fitting wet suit.

[hippifried]

The Catholic church have no damn shame
Oh sure they do. More than they can deal with, actually. That's why they spread it around like peanut butter. Just sharing the wealth.

So Nicole, you heretic, what's it gonna take to get you to worship me properly?

[hippifried]

I thought of that too. I hope I'm not naked when they throw me in. Perhaps I'll be wearing a warm, form-fitting wet suit.
Well... Just in case Nessie's real, make sure there's a flap in the back so he doesn't have to use those sharp teeth to get at what he's really after. What? You never wondered why so many kilted drunks survived falling out of the boat?

[EvonRose]

If I got thrown into Lochness I certainly wouldn't be worrying about being devoured by Nessie. I'd be more concerned with the intentions of the person or persons who threw me in the drink to begin with.

But I agree the arguments between atheists and theists are as old as the hills and at this point beyond tedious. In the U.S. these discussions arise over and over again because proselytizing fundamentalists can't keep their fingers out of government, healthcare and schools. Witness the to-do's about abortion, contraception and Darwin.

There is no rational argument that's so delicious it can seduce a true believer to quit their drug. One wishes non-believers would just quit trying. But then one also wishes the druggies would just be content shooting up at home and not insist on bringing it into the schools.

If it makes someone feel good let them be, if they want t believe in a god so they can be a better person let that be, i see no problem in it... At least there is a form of regret or fear for killing, stealing, causing harm to each other as oppose to someone who believes in no form of morality... I feel it makes the world go round... I am taking about the true believers not radicals...

[Nicole Dupre]

Oh sure they do. More than they can deal with, actually. That's why they spread it around like peanut butter. Just sharing the wealth.

So Nicole, you heretic, what's it gonna take to get you to worship me properly?
lol Oh, I dunno. I guess you could start with taking me on a shopping spree at the Bal Harbour Mall, back to Manhattan for a casual but delicious dinner at Acme, and then privately jet us to Maui to watch he sunset? After that, you can orally perform sexual miracles on my she-clitty for the rest of the evening. lol I mean, we are talking "worship" here. ;-) lol

[trish]

If it makes someone feel good let them be, if they want t believe in a god so they can be a better person let that be, i see no problem in it... At least there is a form of regret or fear for killing, stealing, causing harm to each other as oppose to someone who believes in no form of morality... I feel it makes the world go round... I am taking about the true believers not radicals...I'm inclined to agree that if nobody is being harmed, let them be. But I hope you aren't also implying that belief in the gods in anyway provides a reasonable foundation for morality, or that non-belief in theism entails amorality.

Is coveting thy neighbor’s wife wrong simply because Jehovah says not to do it, or does Jehovah condemn the behavior for a reason? Is honoring your father and your mother good simply because Jehovah endorses it, or does Jehovah have a reason for the endorsement? If there are no reasons behind Jehovah’s condemnations or endorsements, then morality has no foundation beyond the whim of Jehovah. If there are reasons behind Jehovah’s condemnations and endorsements, then those reasons are the foundations of morality, not Jehovah; i.e. Jehovah is passing along to us his conclusions but not his reasons. Either way we see the godhead is neither the foundation nor the author of moral behavior (lest morality be whimsical).

[EvonRose]

I'm inclined to agree that if nobody is being harmed, let them be. But I hope you aren't also implying that belief in the gods in anyway provides a reasonable foundation for morality, or that non-belief in theism entails amorality.

Is coveting thy neighbor’s wife wrong simply because Jehovah says not to do it, or does Jehovah condemn the behavior for a reason? Is honoring your father and your mother good simply because Jehovah endorses it, or does Jehovah have a reason for the endorsement? If there are no reasons behind Jehovah’s condemnations or endorsements, then morality has no foundation beyond the whim of Jehovah. If there are reasons behind Jehovah’s condemnations and endorsements, then those reasons are the foundation for morality, not Jehovah; i.e. Jehovah is passing along to us his conclusions but not his reasons. Either way we see the godhead is neither the foundation nor the author of moral behavior (lest morality be whimsical).

Actually believing in gods does provide a foundation of morality, to them. You cannot see the reason behind it because you don't believe it, True believers are peaceful, loving, caring, that is what their god had ordered even if it is just fantasy to you it is reality to them, and if that is their channel to bring peace upon themselves and others then it is a very good foundation of morality.

The bible is taken in literal, the reasons behind Jehovah commanding not to do these particular sins is because of the fear of it leading to something bigger. Like coveting a neighbors wife, it could lead to jealousy, in some but not rare cases raping the woman, sometimes killing the man. Not respecting your parents leads to family disfunction's, and chaos in the household. If one does not think of their wrong actions without the morality of it it will lead to something bigger...Or in our world because we are realist, if they were no punishment for murder people would not think twice committing it. The commandments are spiritual laws similar to our judicial laws. think of it that way, because i honestly think you or I have to be a believer to realize the other side... Spirituality is a complicated thing, if your atheist there is absolutely no point trying to understand with the analytical mind or questioning it... none. their spirit and beliefs are in another plain field.

Too answer your question for every commandment there is a reason for that commandment, not just because it is endorsed. Believers are well aware that god has given you the freedom of choice, but with that comes consequences just like our world of crimes and law. They just choose to believe the word, and they are well aware that if you choose to not believe they will share but are well aware it is your choice.

[trish]

You cannot see the reason behind it because you don't believe it, True believers are peaceful, loving, caring... Well not if they are true believers in Odin. Not all true believers in Allah fit the bill either. Not to mention the true believers in Christ who murder obstetricians.
...that is what their god had ordered...I can see the reason is their god ordered it, just as well as they can. But is whim, even the whim of a supernatural being, a foundation for morality?


The bible is taken in literal, the reasons behind Jehovah commanding not to do these particular sins is because of the fear of it leading to something bigger. Like coveting a neighbors wife, it could lead to jealousy, in some but not rare cases raping the woman, sometimes killing the man... Good. So there are real, practical non-whimsical reasons why some behaviors are moral and others not. The endorsements and condemnations of Jehovah are based on those reasons (as you say, those are the "reasons behind" Jehovah's commanding). So once again, the godhead is not the fountain of morality. At best it's the truck that transports it us, if you're a believer. But the truck isn't necessary, because we have the ability to reason. In fact those reasons you just gave for the commandments aren't in the bible; you came up with those own your own using your faculty to reason things out. The reasons provide the foundation for morality, not the godhead.

[Nicole Dupre]

I believe in the Golden Rule: "Treat others as you'd have them treat you".

If that doesn't work, it's "an eye for an eye". :D

[trish]

"Trick or treat" is a good one too.

[buttslinger]

You damn sinners better get right with God and prepare for Judgement Day!!!
After all is said and done, listen to what "the highest living beings who ever walked the face of the planet" have said. WORD!

[EvonRose]

Well not if they are true believers in Odin. Not all true believers in Allah fit the bill either. Not to mention the true believers in Christ to murder obstetricians. I can see the reason is their god ordered it, just as well as they can. But is whim, even the whim of a supernatural being, a foundation for morality?

Good. So there are reasons why some behaviors are moral and others not. The endorsements and condemnations of Jehovah are based on those reasons (as you say, those are the "reasons behind" Jehovah's commanding). So once again, the godhead is not the fountain of morality. At best it's the truck that transports it us, if you're a believer. But the truck isn't necessary, because we have the reasons. The reasons provide the foundation for morality, not the godhead.

But this thread talks about god, not odin. Allah is the same you just think about the radicals, true muslims don't do what has happened in the past years events. There is a difference between the true believers and radicals radicals stray from the belief. The koran and the bible states they cannot twist the word of god to do evil therefore they are not the religion they are claiming and many true believers do not support radical actions. Murder in any form is a sin unless it is to defend one or family. point blank no if or but.

God's the teacher, the teacher is the foundation of the moral compass, this is the word and the commandment love thy neighbor, it is their moral foundation. God and jesus are one, jesus is their savior, they will do what the word says to bring peace in their minds they do good, so it is a strong, moral structure. Just because its not to you it doesn't mean it the same to them. I would say the same thing to a believer telling you your moral structure is not good, its selfish to base everything on your own belief.

[Jimmy W]

Im thinking that if you question the existence of anything its existence is already established.

[trish]

This thread is about what you know in your heart; it's about faith and belief based on faith. Your own condemnation applies quite aptly:
...its selfish to base everything on your own belief. Reasons are public. Reasons are effable. Faith is of the heart, private and ineffable. Which is more selfish, proposing we together base morality on public reasons that can be discussed, modified and shared; or proposing we adopt a morality based on private, immutable faith?

[trish]

Im thinking that if you question the existence of anything its existence is already established.I'm thinking you believe in a number that's strictly less than itself; i.e. x < x.


If you do, then you also believe that every number is less than itself. Here's why? Take any number N. Now add N to both sides of the inequality above to obtain N + x < N + x. Now subtract x from both sides of the inequality to obtain N < N.

[EvonRose]

Im thinking that if you question the existence of anything its existence is already established.

I agree, if you don't believe it, move along... go on with your business.... Live your life to your own belief and existence, I'm open and I'm not going to say god does or does not exist so that's why I ask questions, but some of these atheist seem so unsure they ask the same questions over and over knowing the answer they will get is the same. Its been that way for hundreds of years! its like they need validation or their main goal os to make believers appear crazy, I personally cannot say everything has to be proven in order for it to exist so I'm open to the possibility...

[EvonRose]

This thread is about what you know in your heart; it's about faith and belief based on faith. Your own condemnation applies quite aptly: Reasons are public. Reasons are effable. Faith is of the heart, private and ineffable. Which is more selfish, proposing we together base morality on public reasons that can be discussed, modified and shared; or proposing we adopt a morality based on private, immutable faith?

Like I said before I have observed believers and atheist, and like I said before you cannot simply get it with the analytical mind, theres no way in hell! You will just confuse yourself further. Believers are set on their beliefs they don't need to ask questions... Atheist just look silly asking questions that you cannot answer yourself....

[trish]

And the smugness of theists just looks silly. They're thinking they've got all the answers when its clear they're even more confused than everyone else.

I agree. If you believe it, move along...go on with your business... Live your life to your own belief and existence. But some of these theists seem (imo) so unsure they seek validation everywhere. They want public prayers, they want creationism in high school biology classes, they stand against gay marriage, contraception and a woman's right to decide how to live her own life. When asked why the rest of us should follow their practices it always comes down to their personal faith.

I don't think human knowledge will ever encompass every aspect of the universe, but I won't pretend that faith gives me private access to those corners not within the reach of others.

[EvonRose]

And the smugness of theists just looks silly. They're thinking they've got all the answers when its clear they're even more confused than everyone else.

I agree. If you believe it, move along...go on with your business... Live your life to your own belief and existence. But some of these theists seem (imo) so unsure they seek validation everywhere. They want public prayers, they want creationism in high school biology classes, they stand against gay marriage, contraception and a woman's right to decide how to live her own life. When asked why the rest of us should follow their practices it always comes down to their personal faith.

I don't think human knowledge will ever encompass every aspect of the universe, but I won't pretend that faith gives me private access to those corners not within the reach of others.

Well then that's your opinion and you have made your point, you don't believe in a theist, what next?

True believers are who I talk about, these money hungry, blood hungry, corrupt people are not believers, they may think they are. When you say they you put all of them into one, I know many believers that do not support it but they don't care enough to go as far as banning it. They live and let live. you are mislead to prosecute every believer for the actions of a certain. i don't think that's right.

Im not a believer, and i don't support abortion. What do you have to say about that?

[noble1337]

well, many believers are open about how their beliefs contradict their religion. no, it doesnt make sense, but its quite common.

and do you really think abortions should be outlawed evon?....

[trish]

I did italicize the word some to avoid the accusation that I'm claiming all believers want to shove their unfounded beliefs onto the rest of us. Those who are content to keep their beliefs to themselves are fine with me.


Im not a believer, and i don't support abortion. What do you have to say about that? That's perfectly fine. Since you aren't a believer, I take it you aren't basing your non-support on unfounded faith. I'm sure you could give me reasons for your position, we could discuss them and perhaps modify each others perspectives somewhat. There wouldn't be any gods to get between us and prevent compromise.

In any case, I truly enjoyed conversing this issue this afternoon with you Evon. There are a lot of conversations here that go downhill pretty fast, but I think we did pretty well. But I gotta go now, so I'll say my good byes. Have a good evening.

[hippifried]

I believe in the Golden Rule: "Treat others as you'd have them treat you".
Exactly. Understanding the universal code of human interaction requires no kind of worship or supernatural belief at all. It's the same everywhere. Universal, don't ya know. No other tweaks in the moral code or beliefs in any kind of deity can make that claim. The code has been preached around the world by the likes of Jesus, Gautama Buddha, Confucius, Deganawida, & others who I'm sure never met or heard of each other.


Evon Rose,

But this thread talks about god, not odin.
There's a difference? That's a pretty haughty distinction. The title of this thread is a statement, & as inaccurate as it is, still makes no mention of a particular deity. You're making a huge assumptive leap.

[EvonRose]

well, many believers are open about how their beliefs contradict their religion. no, it doesnt make sense, but its quite common.

and do you really think abortions should be outlawed evon?....

No i just don't support it... its one of those things that needs to be legal for medical reasons, id rather women get good treatments than a back alley...

[EvonRose]

I did italicize the word some to avoid the accusation that I'm claiming all believers want to shove their unfounded beliefs onto the rest of us. Those who are content to keep their beliefs to themselves are fine with me.

That's perfectly fine. Since you aren't a believer, I take it you aren't basing your non-support on unfounded faith. I'm sure you could give me reasons for your position, we could discuss them and perhaps modify each others perspectives somewhat. There wouldn't be any gods to get between us and prevent compromise.

In any case, I truly enjoyed conversing this issue this afternoon with you Evon. There are a lot of conversations here that go downhill pretty fast, but I think we did pretty well. But I gotta go now, so I'll say my good byes. Have a good evening.

I am my own belief system I guess, i take it in strides and trust me I get why you believe what you believe I get it... I love your intellect and maturity talk soon...

[EvonRose]

Exactly. Understanding the universal code of human interaction requires no kind of worship or supernatural belief at all. It's the same everywhere. Universal, don't ya know. No other tweaks in the moral code or beliefs in any kind of deity can make that claim. The code has been preached around the world by the likes of Jesus, Gautama Buddha, Confucius, Deganawida, & others who I'm sure never met or heard of each other.


Evon Rose,

There's a difference? That's a pretty haughty distinction. The title of this thread is a statement, & as inaccurate as it is, still makes no mention of a particular deity. You're making a huge assumptive leap.

Im sorry did i miss something? the video subject was about a rabbi defending his faith, is that not the same god i was just discussing about?

[Yvonne183]

I am a Christian and I know God exists. I just never say it too much on this forum about my beliefs and I never say what others should believe in. But I do read many many times on this forum on others who disbelieve and hate my beliefs. So on this forum it's not Christians who are forcing their beliefs on others but a lot of posts that give harsh opinions against people who are Christians.

I am not educated on smart words or use links to Youtube people that speak boringly long winded essays on the ways of the world, I only have myself and speak about myself.
I sort of believe there is a Ying Yang sort of existence between good and evil. In my life man has been the evil part. They were the abusers when I was young. They were the rapists when I was older. They were the policemen who harassed me constantly. They were the shrinks that said I'm insane and a bit of shocks to the brain would cure me. They were the guys who beat me up cause they could. They were the people who laughed as I walked by them with blood coming out of my eyes. They were the people that never gave me a chance at a normal job.It was young men that made life miserable in school so I had to drop out. I hope it's men who have to clean the mess in my bathtub after I die.

With that there must be a good side to the Ying thing and I know it's God. I have to believe that there is a God and He is all good. I have no faith in man. He might have science and other wonderful play things but he is by nature evil.
I have sinned in my life and I know that. I'd like to blame men but I do own up and blame myself. I do hope that God forgives me when I die. I have to believe in God,, I pray to get out of hell and go to a better place when I die.

[EvonRose]

I am a Christian and I know God exists. I just never say it too much on this forum about my beliefs and I never say what others should believe in. But I do read many many times on this forum on others who disbelieve and hate my beliefs. So on this forum it's not Christians who are forcing their beliefs on others but a lot of posts that give harsh opinions against people who are Christians.

I am not educated on smart words or use links to Youtube people that speak boringly long winded essays on the ways of the world, I only have myself and speak about myself.
I sort of believe there is a Ying Yang sort of existence between good and evil. In my life man has been the evil part. They were the abusers when I was young. They were the rapists when I was older. They were the policemen who harassed me constantly. They were the shrinks that said I'm insane and a bit of shocks to the brain would cure me. They were the guys who beat me up cause they could. They were the people who laughed as I walked by them with blood coming out of my eyes. They were the people that never gave me a chance at a normal job.It was young men that made life miserable in school so I had to drop out. I hope it's men who have to clean the mess in my bathtub after I die.

With that there must be a good side to the Ying thing and I know it's God. I have to believe that there is a God and He is all good. I have no faith in man. He might have science and other wonderful play things but he is by nature evil.
I have sinned in my life and I know that. I'd like to blame men but I do own up and blame myself. I do hope that God forgives me when I die. I have to believe in God,, I pray to get out of hell and go to a better place when I die.

I commend you for speaking out! And a previous comment of mine I said why people question god's responsibility in the destruction of the world when i too believe men are responsible.... Evil I do believe, proof is around us just look at the world, but I do believe that there is a greater good wether it is from a higher being or a higher being amongst humanity..

[maaarc]

I am a Christian and I know God exists. I just never say it too much on this forum about my beliefs and I never say what others should believe in. But I do read many many times on this forum on others who disbelieve and hate my beliefs. So on this forum it's not Christians who are forcing their beliefs on others but a lot of posts that give harsh opinions against people who are Christians.

I am not educated on smart words or use links to Youtube people that speak boringly long winded essays on the ways of the world, I only have myself and speak about myself.
I sort of believe there is a Ying Yang sort of existence between good and evil. In my life man has been the evil part. They were the abusers when I was young. They were the rapists when I was older. They were the policemen who harassed me constantly. They were the shrinks that said I'm insane and a bit of shocks to the brain would cure me. They were the guys who beat me up cause they could. They were the people who laughed as I walked by them with blood coming out of my eyes. They were the people that never gave me a chance at a normal job.It was young men that made life miserable in school so I had to drop out. I hope it's men who have to clean the mess in my bathtub after I die.

With that there must be a good side to the Ying thing and I know it's God. I have to believe that there is a God and He is all good. I have no faith in man. He might have science and other wonderful play things but he is by nature evil.
I have sinned in my life and I know that. I'd like to blame men but I do own up and blame myself. I do hope that God forgives me when I die. I have to believe in God,, I pray to get out of hell and go to a better place when I die.


these are the words of a Bodhisattva. the only reason people like yourself exist in this material world of hell is to get the rest of us out of it. I am not worthy of your friendship Yvonne183

[Stavros]

I am a Christian and I know God exists. I just never say it too much on this forum about my beliefs and I never say what others should believe in. But I do read many many times on this forum on others who disbelieve and hate my beliefs. So on this forum it's not Christians who are forcing their beliefs on others but a lot of posts that give harsh opinions against people who are Christians.

I am not educated on smart words or use links to Youtube people that speak boringly long winded essays on the ways of the world, I only have myself and speak about myself.
I sort of believe there is a Ying Yang sort of existence between good and evil. In my life man has been the evil part. They were the abusers when I was young. They were the rapists when I was older. They were the policemen who harassed me constantly. They were the shrinks that said I'm insane and a bit of shocks to the brain would cure me. They were the guys who beat me up cause they could. They were the people who laughed as I walked by them with blood coming out of my eyes. They were the people that never gave me a chance at a normal job.It was young men that made life miserable in school so I had to drop out. I hope it's men who have to clean the mess in my bathtub after I die.

With that there must be a good side to the Ying thing and I know it's God. I have to believe that there is a God and He is all good. I have no faith in man. He might have science and other wonderful play things but he is by nature evil.
I have sinned in my life and I know that. I'd like to blame men but I do own up and blame myself. I do hope that God forgives me when I die. I have to believe in God,, I pray to get out of hell and go to a better place when I die.

On a gut level, this is one of the best posts so far in this thread -trying to debate the existence of God becomes fatuous when the demands of science, for evidence of God's existence or 'his' creation of the world, for example, are beyond science. I think it was Nicole in an earlier post who suggested human beings are hard-wired to ask questions which lean towards explanations for why we are here that are mystical rather than rational.

The problem, it seems to me, is not so much a belief in God, but the uses to which this has been put, and the link between organised religion and the state. The ancient empires of Assyria, Babylon, Egypt and a lesser extent Greece, all wove the authority of God/Gods into the politics of their times -because God or the Gods were seen as the controlling elements of life, their so-called 'representatives' thereby had awesome power over 'mere mortals'. Organised religion developed with the modern state, so it is no surprise that in Europe the education of the masses was at one time mostly provided by Churches -today it still is in many parts of the UK and it has been argued that the dominance of the Catholic and Protestant churches over education in Northern Ireland cemented rather than dispelled prejudices one against the other. Many Muslims over the centuries first learned to read at a local Mosque. Moral judgements that are said to be derived from the Bible or the Qu'ran are man-made, not God-given, some of them have obvious values which Hippifried has pointed out are reasonable under any condition, with or without God -not eating Pork if pigs in your area are liable to diseases that will kill you; not sleeping with your brothers and sisters or your community will die out; choosing to respect other people rather than killing them.

But what I like about Yvonne's post is the way she claims a personal God, to meet her emotional and spiritual needs, needs and comforts only she can speak of with authority; and because she does not use her own belief to assume other people are inferior because they lack it.

We have already this week seen how patronising some Christians can be -the Republican Party leader, Rush Limbaugh attacked a college student for being a 'slut' and a 'prostitute' because he thinks young women should be virgins until they marry or otherwise they don't fit his model of what a woman is -I don't even know what it is about that which is Christian.

But I set it against the modest, but fulfilling faith Yvonne has given voice to, and I know which I prefer.

[EvonRose]

On a gut level, this is one of the best posts so far in this thread -trying to debate the existence of God becomes fatuous when the demands of science, for evidence of God's existence or 'his' creation of the world, for example, are beyond science. I think it was Nicole in an earlier post who suggested human beings are hard-wired to ask questions which lean towards explanations for why we are here that are mystical rather than rational.

The problem, it seems to me, is not so much a belief in God, but the uses to which this has been put, and the link between organised religion and the state. The ancient empires of Assyria, Babylon, Egypt and a lesser extent Greece, all wove the authority of God/Gods into the politics of their times -because God or the Gods were seen as the controlling elements of life, their so-called 'representatives' thereby had awesome power over 'mere mortals'. Organised religion developed with the modern state, so it is no surprise that in Europe the education of the masses was at one time mostly provided by Churches -today it still is in many parts of the UK and it has been argued that the dominance of the Catholic and Protestant churches over education in Northern Ireland cemented rather than dispelled prejudices one against the other. Many Muslims over the centuries first learned to read at a local Mosque. Moral judgements that are said to be derived from the Bible or the Qu'ran are man-made, not God-given, some of them have obvious values which Hippifried has pointed out are reasonable under any condition, with or without God -not eating Pork if pigs in your area are liable to diseases that will kill you; not sleeping with your brothers and sisters or your community will die out; choosing to respect other people rather than killing them.

But what I like about Yvonne's post is the way she claims a personal God, to meet her emotional and spiritual needs, needs and comforts only she can speak of with authority; and because she does not use her own belief to assume other people are inferior because they lack it.

We have already this week seen how patronising some Christians can be -the Republican Party leader, Rush Limbaugh attacked a college student for being a 'slut' and a 'prostitute' because he thinks young women should be virgins until they marry or otherwise they don't fit his model of what a woman is -I don't even know what it is about that which is Christian.

But I set it against the modest, but fulfilling faith Yvonne has given voice to, and I know which I prefer.

These christians are not real christians, read the bible.. shall make false accusations to thy neighbor... do not cast a stone unless you are perfect, with then is read by a passage saying no human is perfect. I f he is judging her and casting stones he is despising the word of god as evil that is blasphemy. No real christian would do this...

[giovanni_hotel]

It's an old evangelical argument, but it's hard for me to look at the multitude of life on earth and the expanse of the universe and believe as many rationalists/atheists assume, in an 'infinite randomness' of existence.

The Big Accident.

At what point does an occurrence exceed probability and chance, and become a pattern, a rule, a law???

When you contemplate the precise calculus involved in Earth's position from the Sun, and how a deviation in its orbit by a few degrees would make life practically impossible, or the 'convenient' role the position of our moon plays in the regulation of tidal flows, specifically spring tides and how the rise and fall of sea levels is believed to be a critical engine in evolution.....just saying it's hard to believe all of this is nothing more existential than winning the powerball.

It's also odd to me when you factor all the improbable variables that have to be play for a planet to support life, forget about the subsequent evolution a sentient species like homo sapiens or its equivalent, and yet people BELIEVE more in the probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe yet are less willing to consider an uber-consciousness that doesn't neatly conform to human parameters.

I agree that the idea of 'Godness' in total truly is beyond human comprehension. At best IMO we glimpse the shadows of it, but conceptually it can't be neatly confined to faith or empiricism.

As for those who don't believe in extraterrestrial life, I don't know how these folks can't believe in a God. Among the billions upon billions of star systems in the cosmos, and Earth is IT??? If we're that special, we must REALLY be special.

And if life is as universal as the Universe itself, it also encourages me to assume the existence of an infinitely higher law of existence guiding the prevalence of life in the universe.

Even the Big Bang theory, from nothing, EVERYTHING came into being...do atheists really believe this?? Because I was taught the same lesson in Sunday school as a child.

Ultimately I still hold to be true what I learned in undergrad from a few big brain rationally analytical professors;what we think we know about life/existence/universe is infinitely LESS than what we don't know.

Now if someone could tell me if there's consciousness after death, I'd be set.

[EvonRose]

Look at the chain of response the world and this universe does, the system is too perfect i feel a designer created the universe... its too complicated i can't help but question and open my mind to a vast horizon....

[robertlouis]

My heart tells me lots of stuff, often unreliable but sometimes inspirational too.

I was raised as a Scots presbyterian, but my parents always allowed me my own choice in important decisions.

My mind, however, tells me that "God', in the sense of a man-made hypothetical entity as portrayed by most religions, does not.

[Paulistano]

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."

As an architect I just wonder... where God lived before he created the Universe?

It might be a stupid question, but... it must be somewhere that I really want to know and maybe visit one day! ;)

[maaarc]

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."

As an architect I just wonder... where God lived before he created the Universe?

It might be a stupid question, but... it must be somewhere that I really want to know and maybe visit one day! ;)

I believe you are already in that place Pauli :) God lives nowhere and everywhere at once. whatever the creative force (God) is, it is not subject to the human constructs of place, no place, morality, no morality, fairness, justice etc... God just is.... God cannot be found through your conscious mind - God cannot be found through the intellect or logic.... listen to your heart and you will see all that is to be seen - you already know that don't you my friend :)

[Tank183]

I am atheist but I understand peoples need to believe that something is bigger than them, it gives them comfort & thats ok I just don't like when people of religion try to tell me I am wrong in my believes

[russtafa]

i know i prayed to god when my mum and dad died and i hope that they have gone to a better place.i believe in evil in a supernatural sense so there must be also good

[Paulistano]

I believe you are already in that place Pauli :) God lives nowhere and everywhere at once. whatever the creative force (God) is, it is not subject to the human constructs of place, no place, morality, no morality, fairness, justice etc... God just is.... God cannot be found through your conscious mind - God cannot be found through the intellect or logic.... listen to your heart and you will see all that is to be seen - you already know that don't you my friend :)

I'm not sure if you thought deeper about my question, my dear friend maaarc.
Let me change it a little bit: Before the creation of the Universe, what kind of environment God could face? How was it? Can you describe me what means "nothing"?

[muh_muh]

And a previous comment of mine I said why people question god's responsibility in the destruction of the world when i too believe men are responsible....

the thing when you assume the idea of a benevolent fair god the realities of the world dont line up with that in any way whatsoever
saying that men are responsible for the evils of the world is just a cop out and doesnt do away with the fundamental unfairness of the lottery of where you end up being born
if you take religions on what they tell you about the nature of god and draw conclusions from that you inevitably end up eliminating christianity pretty quickly as impossible

religions that draw a realistic picture of the world would be hinduism or ancient greek religion and other where gods are chracterized as acting on whims and generally being narcisistic assholes

[maaarc]

I'm not sure if you thought deeper about my question, my dear friend maaarc.
Let me change it a little bit: Before the creation of the Universe, what kind of environment God could face? How was it? Can you describe me what means "nothing"?

LOL - I can my friend - however- it will mean you letting go of your rational mind - see god with your heart not your Intellect and you will see clearly my friend

[Nicole Dupre]

I don't think you need the concept of god to know there's right and wrong, good and evil, light and dark, karma, etc. And yes, hell exists and it's right here on earth, just as heaven is right here on earth. I believe in life energy and unseen forces and collective consciousness, but I don't believe there's a supreme being, other than maybe our sun. But is that "god"? If there's a god, we're ALL collectively it. If you do "good" because you knew you were "supposed to", you do it because your fellow human beings reflected a collective standard of acceptable behavior back at you, and you realize it affects you. You don't pee in the well because you know you have to drink from it too. That's as much logic as it is good.

[hippifried]

Im sorry did i miss something? the video subject was about a rabbi defending his faith, is that not the same god i was just discussing about?
Not really. Jews don't buy into the Trinity. It's a whole different concept, as are the Pagan beliefs that you dismiss out of hand, like they have nothing to do with "God" at all. Every religion tells a creation story, & that necessarily comes down to belief in a supreme being, irrespective of a name or human attributes ascribed to it. In this regard, they're all the same. Primitive explanations to complex questions beyond the knowlege of the time. You'll notice that there aren't any new ones.

So yeah, you're missing something. Mostly, you're missing the fact that nobody's infallible. Belief in a God doesn't make you one. One story doesn't trump another. Nobody has a lock on any of this, & the details don't really change the basic ideas. Don't be sorry. Just don't blaspheme if you're going to claim faith or devotion.

[maaarc]

I don't think you need the concept of god to know there's right and wrong, good and evil, light and dark, karma, etc. And yes, hell exists and it's right here on earth, just as heaven is right here on earth. I believe in life energy and unseen forces and collective consciousness, but I don't believe there's a supreme being, other than maybe our sun. But is that "god"? If there's a god, we're ALL collectively it. If you do "good" because you knew you were "supposed to", you do it because your fellow human beings reflected a collective standard of acceptable behavior back at you, and you realize it affects you. You don't pee in the well because you know you have to drink from it too. That's as much logic as it is good.

so when do I get suck your cock? LOL I love you - you crazy biatch seriously you are pretty special :)

[noble1337]

if someone thinks you need the christian god in order to not rape and murder other people, then thats fucking scary....

and as an atheist, id rather have a hell than a heaven. since i have already accepted nothing after death (which seems 99.99xN% possible), and i hate the feeling that rapists, torturers and child molesters will never get the correct punishment here on earth....

(btw, maaarc youre an atheist right?...cause im treating your comments as a back hand to religion, and therefore, give you respect -_o)

[Tiffany Starr]

Kingdom hearts tells me that heartless exist.

[russtafa]

:thumbsdownso many godless people on this site

[noble1337]

:thumbsdownso many godless people on this site

so if i choose one of the thousands, youll see me in a better light?
im on it!

[russtafa]

i just believe in go i'm not a Christian i have committed to many acts of violence but i do believe,only westerners laugh at the supernatural

[noble1337]

i just believe in go i'm not a Christian i have committed to many acts of violence but i do believe,only westerners laugh at the supernatural

oh, so its just a comfort thing for you?
and thats a judgmental stereotype to make :P

[russtafa]

i prayed that my mother and father will go to heaven is that wrong or are one evil son of a bitch .i know most of the people on this site are smug bastards on this site but this is my belief and yes i find comfort in the fact my mother and father are in heaven

[Tiffany Starr]

I believe that macaroni and cheese should always be topped off with bread crumbs. the word of the cookbook.

[russtafa]

maybe some of these keyboard warriors should go to peoples funerals and express their beliefs if they have the courage of their convictions

[EvonRose]

the thing when you assume the idea of a benevolent fair god the realities of the world dont line up with that in any way whatsoever
saying that men are responsible for the evils of the world is just a cop out and doesnt do away with the fundamental unfairness of the lottery of where you end up being born
if you take religions on what they tell you about the nature of god and draw conclusions from that you inevitably end up eliminating christianity pretty quickly as impossible

religions that draw a realistic picture of the world would be hinduism or ancient greek religion and other where gods are chracterized as acting on whims and generally being narcisistic assholes

But thats the thing isn't it? human do not like to be wrong, so they want a scapegoat. Believers believe that god had given everyone a free choice, as intelligent as humans are, why do we need someone to baby us when we can think nd act for ourselves? So think again do you really think that human race had nothing to do with 911, or holocaust, or the wars, or rape in nanking, or slavery? How about the greed of people bringing our country to financial problem? We control those actions, I do believe in reality and I'm not religious but in no atheist, In my opinion believers are no harm to me, as a matter of fact if god does exist they're good and all the nonbelievers are fucked, but if god doesn't exist then no one gets hurt for believing or not....

Tell me what the nature of god is? I was told he was loving, and just. You are led to believe the bad things because the extremist want you to fear him. But any real believers will tell you that's not the case.

[EvonRose]

if someone thinks you need the christian god in order to not rape and murder other people, then thats fucking scary....

and as an atheist, id rather have a hell than a heaven. since i have already accepted nothing after death (which seems 99.99xN% possible), and i hate the feeling that rapists, torturers and child molesters will never get the correct punishment here on earth....

(btw, maaarc youre an atheist right?...cause im treating your comments as a back hand to religion, and therefore, give you respect -_o)

Your wrong, it's not just a christian god... Buddhism, hinduism, islam, judaism, goes on tells them the same exact thing on different forms. I find people with religion specially Buddhism are the most at peace with themselves, and if you need religion to make you a decent human let it be. I never felt atheists to be this way. It's like they hate someone for having a religion, and always complain christians shove their beliefs in their throats but I find atheists worst. Just an observation from me. I don't hate atheist, however many of them say they are liberal, I disagree they are as much of close minded as some of the believers they don't like... They are kinda the same on the opposite spectrum...

[Nicole Dupre]

That's not true. There are plenty of believers who believe in "vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord" and the rest of god's psychotic biblical adventures. You're talking about a Christianity now. The message of Jesus is a good one. Jesus turned the other cheek, hung out with hookers, and he threw the money changers out of the temple. The message of Jesus is awesome imo. But his fan club leave a lot to be desired.

[EvonRose]

Not really. Jews don't buy into the Trinity. It's a whole different concept, as are the Pagan beliefs that you dismiss out of hand, like they have nothing to do with "God" at all. Every religion tells a creation story, & that necessarily comes down to belief in a supreme being, irrespective of a name or human attributes ascribed to it. In this regard, they're all the same. Primitive explanations to complex questions beyond the knowlege of the time. You'll notice that there aren't any new ones.

So yeah, you're missing something. Mostly, you're missing the fact that nobody's infallible. Belief in a God doesn't make you one. One story doesn't trump another. Nobody has a lock on any of this, & the details don't really change the basic ideas. Don't be sorry. Just don't blaspheme if you're going to claim faith or devotion.

No you're wrong, just because christians believe in the trinity as one, its only one god they pray to. It's the same god judaism prays to, they just don't believe jesus to be the savior. The evolution is a theory in itself, no one actually knows how the world started not even science so if religion has its theist then science has its hypothesis. Can you read my comments at all? I never claimed faith nor did I say I was of religion. I have been open because i feel that is the best way to live life as oppose to being closed off, we don't know everything.

[martin48]

..... The evolution is a theory in itself, no one actually knows how the world started not even science so if religion has its theist then science has its hypothesis. Can you read my comments at all? I never claimed faith nor did I say I was of religion. I have been open because i feel that is the best way to live life as oppose to being closed off, we don't know everything.

It is a shame that science uses the word "theory" is a different way to everyday speech. Evolution, in essence, is as solid a piece of science as the Periodic Table. It is a choice to accept the evidence or to ignore it and just believe a story.

[russtafa]

It is a shame that science uses the word "theory" is a different way to everyday speech. Evolution, in essence, is as solid a piece of science as the Periodic Table. It is a choice to accept the evidence or to ignore it and just believe a story.
And that means ? a belief in god has nothing to do with organised religion

[EvonRose]

It is a shame that science uses the word "theory" is a different way to everyday speech. Evolution, in essence, is as solid a piece of science as the Periodic Table. It is a choice to accept the evidence or to ignore it and just believe a story.

im not talking about evolution of living or transformation of living organism, in general just the evolution of the world how it came to be or started, no one really knows....

There is always room for question, Tina Turner said I learn by asking, Not by thinking I'm right, or there is no room for questions... And she's buddhist and a fierce bitch!!!

[muh_muh]

So think again do you really think that human race had nothing to do with 911, or holocaust, or the wars, or rape in nanking, or slavery?

Species not race but let's focus on the important bits. Yes of course humans were responsible for all those. The point was that at least as far as christianity is concerned those things shouldnt happen especially not to children too young to ever have commited any sins. A child being born into slavery or a warzone simply does not line up with the belief in a fair and benevolent god.


Your wrong, it's not just a christian god... Buddhism, hinduism, islam, judaism, goes on tells them the same exact thing on different forms.

Actually Buddhism in its original form is essentially agnostic.


I never felt atheists to be this way. It's like they hate someone for having a religion, and always complain christians shove their beliefs in their throats but I find atheists worst.

I think your experience is massively muddled by living in the US where civil liberties and in fact the truth are constantly under attack by christian extremism leading to atheist having to fall into a very definsive posture. In Europe where the majority are atheists or at least non religious these problems do or at least did not arise in the first place.

[EvonRose]

Species not race but let's focus on the important bits. Yes of course humans were responsible for all those. The point was that at least as far as christianity is concerned those things shouldnt happen especially not to children too young to ever have commited any sins. A child being born into slavery or a warzone simply does not line up with the belief in a fair and benevolent god.



Actually Buddhism in its original form is essentially agnostic.



I think your experience is massively muddled by living in the US where civil liberties and in fact the truth are constantly under attack by christian extremism leading to atheist having to fall into a very definsive posture. In Europe where the majority are atheists or at least non religious these problems do or at least did not arise in the first place.

When it come down to it, it is this ways of man that lead to that lifestyle, a child being born in slavery is due to the impact that men do not change their ways, its only after man changed their ways about slavery here that it gave opportunities to african younger generations. Think about it. Some people, some believe it is a test to show ones compassion for their neighbors... many don't care.

Buddhism may not believe in a god, but they do believe in supernatural forces. Agnostic is kinda like what I am, there is no need to beat yourself up over it, however the possibility of the unknown still lingers there it is still cautious. Many of my family members are Buddhist, They do not and never will consider it atheistic, An agnostic can practice it as a philosophy. but if you read into it and from what I know about it it is still very spiritual and many times supernatural.

I am dating a european who is agnostic, and we share the same beliefs (somewhat) lol, however, we both agree both believers and atheist prosecute each other the same way, atheist think they are different, but they are the same on the oppose spectrum in therms of the closeness of their belief...

[Nicole Dupre]

If we were created by aliens who mixed their DNA with monkey DNA, would that make them "gods". Forget religion. First you need to define god. Lots of people believe in religious concepts but aren't religious. Maybe we should be praying to aliens if the concept of prayer is valid. Maybe Jehovah is just a superior being and not the one and only supreme being, if there's even a Jehovah.

[traLika]

I was originally raised a catholic but became a 'non-believer' during my mid-teens. I don't really like the term 'athiest' but I guess that is closest to describing my views.

It seems to me that creative people 'invented' deities thousands of years ago to attempt to explain things that were simply unexplainable back then. For example 5000 years ago there was no way of fully understanding what an earthquake or tsunami was. Or a rainbow. Or thunder and lightning. Or a bacterial infection. And yet 5000 years ago people were still intelligent enough to wonder about those things alongside other things we still wonder about today: What is the meaning of life? Why are we here? What happens to us when we die?

I believe that in inventing a deity (or deities) our ancestors created a sort of 'fix all' solution to everything they didn't know or understand. It was an elegant and spiritually satisfying solution back in the day. But we've learnt a lot over the past 5000 years. I'm not saying that science has or will have all the answers but it has certainly explained many things that people couldn't even begin to comprehend back in the days when religions were first conceived.

[EvonRose]

I'm an alien... when i bleed i bleed oil and my bones are metal...

[russtafa]

I was originally raised a catholic but became a 'non-believer' during my mid-teens. I don't really like the term 'athiest' but I guess that is closest to describing my views.

It seems to me that creative people 'invented' deities thousands of years ago to attempt to explain things that were simply unexplainable back then. For example 5000 years ago there was no way of fully understanding what an earthquake or tsunami was. Or a rainbow. Or thunder and lightning. Or a bacterial infection. And yet 5000 years ago people were still intelligent enough to wonder about those things alongside other things we still wonder about today: What is the meaning of life? Why are we here? What happens to us when we die?

I believe that in inventing a deity (or deities) our ancestors created a sort of 'fix all' solution to everything they didn't know or understand. It was an elegant and spiritually satisfying solution back in the day. But we've learnt a lot over the past 5000 years. I'm not saying that science has or will have all the answers but it has certainly explained many things that people couldn't even begin to comprehend back in the days when religions were first conceived.so science can explain every thing?:bs:

[trish]

But Evon, you keep saying that atheists proselytize as much as theists, when you could say some atheists proselytize as much as some theists. Look at the discussion on this very thread. I see no one attempting to convert theists to atheism nor atheists to theism. I see people stating their positions, giving a few reasons and after questioning clarifying their positions. None of that strikes me as missionary work. Our own discussion yesterday was not about conversion in any way. We were simply discussing whether or not morality and theism were independent issues: me taking the position that they are and you taking the position that a god can without the use of reason be the author of morality (or at least that’s how I understood the discussion).

It seems to me that muh_muh has it right when he proposes that when one side attempts to gain government sponsorship the other will oppose not only the power grab but the beliefs that the sponsorship would propagate. When the public school-board in Dover, Pennsylvania attempted to strong-arm biology teachers into missionary work, atheists responded by attacking not only the action of the school board, but also exposed intelligent design and creationism for the religious fictions that they are. This, I think, was an appropriate response.

Vocal atheists are fairly new phenomenon, and there aren’t that many of them. Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and P.Z. Myers. Vocal Christians are all over the airwaves and have been ever since Marconi invented the radio. Before that Christians were bringing the “Good News” to our doors on foot. Why? Because it is one of the main missions of the various and sundry Christian churches to spread the word and convert the ignorant. The stated mission of Dawkins et al is to protect separation of Church and State against the incessant battering of fundamentalist believers.

[traLika]

so science can explain every thing?:bs:


Perhaps you need to read more carefully. In my last post I clearly said: "I'm not saying that science has or will have all the answers."

[trish]

so science can explain every thing?:bs:No. Science explains a few things. Its domain is the just a finite, but growing portion of the effable. As an explanatory endeavor it does better than theism which explains nothing. But to be fair, it is not the intent of modern theism (theism since the fall of the Greco-Roman gods) to explain the effible, ordinary world.

[martin48]

Perhaps you need to read more carefully. In my last post I clearly said: "I'm not saying that science has or will have all the answers."

No - science can not explain everything (well, not yet:p) but it is the best evidence-based approach that we have in explaining the world around us.

[traLika]

No - science can not explain everything (well, not yet:p) but it is the best evidence-based approach that we have in explaining the world around us.

Oh yes, indeed! :)

[martin48]

But Evon, you keep saying that atheists proselytize as much as theists, when you could say some atheists proselytize as much as some theists. Look at the discussion on this very thread. I see no one attempting to convert theists to atheism nor atheists to theism. I see people stating their positions, giving a few reasons and after questioning clarifying their positions. None of that strikes me as missionary work. Our own discussion yesterday was not about conversion in any way. We were simply discussing whether or not morality and theism were independent issues: me taking the position that they are and you taking the position that a god can without the use of reason be the author of morality (or at least that’s how I understood the discussion).

It seems to me that muh_muh has it right when he proposes that when one side attempts to gain government sponsorship the other will oppose not only the power grab but the beliefs that the sponsorship would propagate. When the public school-board in Dover, Pennsylvania attempted to strong-arm biology teachers into missionary work, atheists responded by attacking not only the action of the school board, but also exposed intelligent design and creationism for the religious fictions that they are. This, I think, was an appropriate response.

Vocal atheists are fairly new phenomenon, and there aren’t that many of them. Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and P.Z. Myers. Vocal Christians are all over the airwaves and have been ever since Marconi invented the radio. Before that Christians were bringing the “Good News” to our doors on foot. Why? Because it is one of the main missions of the various and sundry Christian churches to spread the word and convert the ignorant. The stated mission of Dawkins et al is to protect separation of Church and State against the incessant battering of fundamentalist believers.

I think that Dawkins is often his own worst enemy but it is time that the tenets of the Enlightenment are stressed again. Strange in that we enter the 21st century with so many advances behind us thanks to science and technology and so many liberties fought for, that religous bigotry is so strong and apparently growing.

To quote Dawkins:
“The take-home message is that we should blame religion itself, not religious extremism - as though that were some kind of terrible perversion of real, decent religion. Voltaire got it right long ago: 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.' "

[trish]

Gotta love Voltaire. A well known dictum of logic is that from an absurdity, anything follows: For every proposition q, (p^~p)->q is a tautology.

[bassman2546]

People are starting to use common sense and are getting over the naivety that's been handed down for thousands of years. Does one really think that they can be a sinner for 167 hours a week and go to church for an hour an be forgiven thus having a place in 'heaven'? Really? Are people still that gullible? Burning in hell for eternity? Come on people! And how does a virgin give birth to a child? Did he bust his way through the hymen? And by the way, I love you all so much but my own son? Not so much. I will kill him. I know you think I broke one of the commandments but I'm god, I have immunity to those silly tablets. And I'm so powerful I can do anything except have a regular stream of income. I need you, the people for that.

Heaven and hell are within ourselves. Live your life the best way you can making the right moral decisions and your life will be heaven. The opposite, well that's obvious. Life is short. And when it's over, the lights go out permanently, so enjoy it while you can.

[EvonRose]

But Evon, you keep saying that atheists proselytize as much as theists, when you could say some atheists proselytize as much as some theists. Look at the discussion on this very thread. I see no one attempting to convert theists to atheism nor atheists to theism. I see people stating their positions, giving a few reasons and after questioning clarifying their positions. None of that strikes me as missionary work. Our own discussion yesterday was not about conversion in any way. We were simply discussing whether or not morality and theism were independent issues: me taking the position that they are and you taking the position that a god can without the use of reason be the author of morality (or at least that’s how I understood the discussion).

It seems to me that muh_muh has it right when he proposes that when one side attempts to gain government sponsorship the other will oppose not only the power grab but the beliefs that the sponsorship would propagate. When the public school-board in Dover, Pennsylvania attempted to strong-arm biology teachers into missionary work, atheists responded by attacking not only the action of the school board, but also exposed intelligent design and creationism for the religious fictions that they are. This, I think, was an appropriate response.

Vocal atheists are fairly new phenomenon, and there aren’t that many of them. Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and P.Z. Myers. Vocal Christians are all over the airwaves and have been ever since Marconi invented the radio. Before that Christians were bringing the “Good News” to our doors on foot. Why? Because it is one of the main missions of the various and sundry Christian churches to spread the word and convert the ignorant. The stated mission of Dawkins et al is to protect separation of Church and State against the incessant battering of fundamentalist believers.

To me forcing one to believe your religion, especially in the christians view it is to the extreme, its ventures out of the purpose of what the believers are meant to be, therefore they are not true believers. the bible states christians must follow the law of the land, you cannot justify any moral wrongs by using god's name in vain, they are not allowed to do that. they cannot judge, they cannot prosecute, they are well aware they are citizen of mankind just like everyone else so they must comply like everyone else should. The only difference is they will fight for their god at no cost. All these politicians and government so called christians are not, they are evil people using religion as a way to cease control and unfortunately some christians lose sight of the faith, that to is said in the bible, people will eventually become self-righteous and forget the true word of the god. Evil can disguise itself as good.

Reading into different religions I stand by my view that it has been a moral structure for morality, why do we all think its wrong to kill? or rape? or steal? or hurt someone? There is a root... Even einstein who was agnostic said Jesus was one of the greatest teacher for this very purpose. "Love thy neighbor as to love yourself" in short is treat everyone equally, people forget the good religion teaches, instead they are mislead and its a shame the extremist are the culprit for everyone else. They twist and manipulate the words, that's not what true believers believe.

I am going to always be the observer, but i will never ever be mislead to believing one or the other has negative points, that is why i tend to side with believers because there is room for questions, unlike the atheist view they ask all the question yet they cannot answer their questions. Their true morals, and beliefs are for peace, and love. I can never say that's a bad thing.

The biggest mistake many ppl do is interpret the words to mathematically, for every story there is a message, I don't think it is to be taken too literal, I love science, I love history, I love philosophy, and study of religion. But these stories that may seem so out of the world is a story meant to have moral teachings behind it, do I believe it happened in real life? eh questionable... But the message in the story hold true to the foundation of the teaching...

[trish]

I'm beginning to understand that one of reasons we keep talking past each other is we use the phrase "true believer" differently.

I've been using the following understanding replicated below from the Mirriam Webster dictionary
1: a person who professes absolute belief in something

2: a zealous supporter of a particular cause

You seem to be using "true believer" to denote someone who believes the content of the religious text as it was truly intended to be understood.

Quite a difference! No wonder we misunderstood each other at times :)


Reading into different religions I stand by my view that it has been a moral structure for morality,I don't disagree with you. Various religious texts lay out moral laws. And if they happen to be good laws, and believers are inclined to follow them because they are commanded by their gods to do so, then that religion is providing a moral structure and perhaps even a good one. What the religion is not necessarily providing is a foundation for the authority of those laws. The endorsement of a law by a god can in no way establish that the law is moral. The only thing that can establish and decide that is whether the reasoning behind the god's endorsement is morally correct. May I recommend Mark Twain's novela The Stranger. I think he may do a better job than I at explaining the distinction here between a religion that merely endorses and a religion that provides a foundation for moral law.

I agree with Einstein that one can find good advice in the Bible. But extremists constantly remind us of plenty examples of disgusting advice (Leviticus is full of it). The Bible's endorsement is insufficient even as a practical guide to moral behavior. If only Jehovah told us His source, His reasons, His theory behind morality, then we might know who are the extremists and who are the "true believers" in your sense of the word.

[EvonRose]

I'm beginning to understand that one of reasons we keep talking past each other is we use the phrase "true believer" differently.

I've been using the following understanding replicated below from the Mirriam Webster dictionary
1: a person who professes absolute belief in something

2: a zealous supporter of a particular cause

You seem to be using "true believer" to denote someone who believes the content of the religious text as it was truly intended to be understood.

Quite a difference! No wonder we misunderstood each other at times :)

I don't disagree with you. Various religious texts lay out moral laws. And if they happen to be good laws, and believers are inclined to follow them because they are commanded by their gods to do so, then that religion is providing a moral structure and perhaps even a good one. What the religion is not necessarily providing is a foundation for the authority of those laws. The endorsement of a law by a god can in no way establish that the law is moral. The only thing that can establish and decide that is whether the reasoning behind the god's endorsement is morally correct. May I recommend Mark Twain's novela The Stranger. I think he may do a better job than I at explaining the distinction here between a religion that merely endorses and a religion that provides a foundation for moral law.

I agree with Einstein that one can find good advice in the Bible. But extremists constantly remind us of plenty examples of disgusting advice (Leviticus is full of it). The Bible's endorsement is insufficient even as a practical guide to moral behavior. If only Jehovah told us His source, His reasons, His theory behind morality, then we might know who are the extremists and who are the "true believers" in your sense of the word.

But extremists are not part of the religion, its a cult... Anything that distorts the true meaning of the word is a cult...So I say true believer because people don't see extremist as a cult, but true believers do... Have you not read the bible? "we are one brothers and sisters" why should you love your sister? why can't you hurt your brother? you can answer those. It doesn't have to be too complicated for his morals teachings, theories, and sources to understand... We are all on one flesh and blood, we suffer, feel pain, in no one right to take or cause chaos in ones life. No one. Treat each other with kindess, and love then the world will be united as one, cause harm, murder, rape, greed, causes chaos... We are to choose what path we take. even from a non religious point of view i think it makes sense...

Most of the laws we abide by now that help the society, not saying all... Are very similar to the ways religions has taught. No? I find laws now a bit soft, I believe people who kill, murder or raped or do horrible crime should be punished worst, in the spiritual teaching this is the case, by murdering, stealing, etc has a punishment much more severe than judicial law, it goes for eternity, so people fear to do these crime. If used and done correctly i think punishment should be harsher... Lets see what happens to crime rates, I guarantee it would decrease. Get my drift? do you the connection I'm trying to make? lol...

[trish]

Are the writers of Leviticus a cult? Should it be excised from the Bible then? How does one decide who's the extremist and who isn't when both are following the Biblical text?

[maxpower]

I believe that macaroni and cheese should always be topped off with bread crumbs. the word of the cookbook.


Amen.

[Nicole Dupre]

Aren't they all cults?

[EvonRose]

Aren't they all cults?
Religions respect the individual's autonomy.



Cults enforce compliance.



Religions try to help individuals meet their spiritual needs.



Cults exploit spiritual needs.



Religions tolerate and even encourage questions and independent, critical thinking.

Cults discourage questions and independent critical thinking.



Religions encourage psycho-spiritual integration.



Cults "split" members into the "good cult self" and the "bad old self.”



Conversion to religions involves an unfolding of internal processes central to a person's identity.



Cultic conversion involves an unaware surrender to external forces that care little for the person's identity.



Religions view money as a means, subject to ethical restraints, toward achieving noble ends.



Cults view money as an end or as a means toward achieving power or the selfish goals of the leader.



Religions view sex between clergy and the faithful as unethical.



Cults frequently subject members to the sexual appetites of the leaders.



Religions respond to critics respectfully.

Cults frequently intimidate critics with physical or legal threats.



Religions cherish the family.



Cults view the family as an enemy.

Religions encourage a person to think carefully before making a commitment to join.



Cults encourage quick decisions with little information.

[trish]

When I say "But extremists constantly remind us of plenty examples of disgusting advice (Leviticus is full of it), " I don't mean the persons you just described as cult members. I simply mean those ordinary believers who hold fast by the tenants of Leviticus and for example support anti-gay marriage legislation on the grounds that Jehovah told the Levites that one should not lie with a man as with a woman.

If you're allowed to ignore some of the Bible (or interpret it truly whatever that means) then the word of God is rendered insufficient as a practical guide to moral behavior, because there is no foolproof prescription for interpreting the text.

[trish]

Here’s my own poor attempt, inspired by Mark Twain's The Stranger, to bring home the message found there in.

A New Boy arrives in town. He’s beautiful. He’s glowing. He eminates a personal charisma that captivates everyone he meets. The town loves Him.

One day little Jeremy goes out to play and he finds the New Boy already outside playing in the mud left behind by the morning rain. The New Boy is making dolls out of mud. But not just ordinary dolls. Living dolls. Dolls that hobble around and speak. Jeremy is amazed and horrified. Amazed and fearful of his Friend’s talent. But horrified that He made the newly formed creatures crippled and deformed. Jeremy was even more horrified when his friend picked up all the creatures at once and crushed them to death, their little screams filling the air between them. The New Boy wonders why Jeremy is so dismayed. Jeremy sputters how wrong it was to crush those poor creatures to death. The New Boy (it’s pretty clear now that the New Boy is God) exclaims that it wasn’t wrong. In spite of all of Jeremy’s protestations and arguments that it was indeed wrong, God says it wasn’t. It wasn’t wrong because by definition God can do no wrong. Good and Evil are simply what He, God, deems to be Good and Evil.

The message is that moral behavior, as we understand it, is not determined by the mere authority of any one intelligent agent, even a godhead. Deciding what it moral or immoral is something that needs to be negotiated between people with reason and practice. It cannot be founded in any authority, though it might be transmitted by an authority.

[EvonRose]

When I say "But extremists constantly remind us of plenty examples of disgusting advice (Leviticus is full of it), " I don't mean the persons you just described as cult members. I simply mean those ordinary believers who hold fast by the tenants of Leviticus and for example support anti-gay marriage legislation on the grounds that Jehovah told the Levites that one should not lie with a man as with a woman.

If you're allowed to ignore some of the Bible (or interpret it truly whatever that means) then the word of God is rendered insufficient as a practical guide to moral behavior, because there is no foolproof prescription for interpreting the text.

There is tough, the bible never said being gay was a sin, in other verses it said god made every person perfect in his image, being gay is not a sin. It was an abomination with back then meant foreign or different... Not a sin... You have to look at the bigger picture, if a person says they are christians and they support the greed to go to war, and supports all the other immoral behaviors according to the bible, think twice...

[trish]

It was an abomination with back then meant foreign or different...Really? So then a proper translation would go something like this, "Men sleeping with men is not what Levites do." It's not really a commandment at all. But then why does the New American Standard translate the passage as "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."? And that's not just the New American Standard. http://bible.cc/leviticus/18-22.htm

Pretty clearly, according to Leviticus, homosexuals are disobeying a direct command from God. Christians who give this as a reason to deny gays the right to legal marriage are not obviously extremist. They are following the literal text of the Bible. If you want to interpret Genesis as saying "being gay is not a sin" then maybe the Bible is inconsistent, that or else disobeying the Lord's command is not a sin. But either way I don't see how you can call Christians against gay-marriage extremist in their views as Christians. They are merely following Leviticus. Leviticus just so happens to be wrong on this particular issue (and a few others as well, like stoning unfaithful wives).

[EvonRose]

Really? So then a proper translation would go something like this, "Men sleeping with men is not what Levites do." It's not really a commandment at all. But then why does the New American Standard translate the passage as "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."? And that's not just the New American Standard. http://bible.cc/leviticus/18-22.htm

Pretty clearly, according to Leviticus, homosexuals are disobeying a direct command from God. Christians who give this as a reason to deny gays the right to legal marriage are not obviously extremist. They are following the literal text of the Bible. If you want to interpret Genesis as saying "being gay is not a sin" then maybe the Bible is inconsistent, that or else disobeying the Lord's command is not a sin. But either way I don't see how you can call Christians against gay-marriage extremist in their views as Christians. They are merely following Leviticus. Leviticus just so happens to be wrong on this particular issue (and a few others as well, like stoning unfaithful wives).

Yes, but see you are translating it how naive people would. Not to say your naive but spiritually, you need to have the word with you or have and understanding... Let me try to explain things here...

Prior to that passage it states no sin is greater than another, then those verse were said... This meant man to lie with another man is as much of a sin as a man to lie with a woman. Of course this is out of marriage. Stoning a woman for a sin she does not make better or repent, it also states unfaithful men to be punished in the same act of sin. is what it means, it doesn't mean stone her literally with stones to die, its a spiritual punishment. casting stones not throwing stones till she does, Don't forget in the story... who saved Mary form being stoned literally? Jesus was against stoning, it was murder. the bible is not inconsistent, if you read it it makes sense, don't let people teach it to you, don't go online, read it and have a true understanding of the bible.. everything has an explanation... I read for studies, and everything has an answer. read it spiritually not mentally... Mentally you will analyze the words literal and this is the mistake many make. But I don't think u will ever understand it to be honest with you, your spiritually closed off so theres no point for you to even try. You have your beliefs set. Homosexuality was not the form of a sexuality, it was the form of the sin, in sodom and Gomorra many women were commting Homsexual sins, The translation sometimes is believed to be a monotonous sin, something bad being done but nothing changes... Kind alike a woman being unfaithful and does not change her ways she is an adulteress but is committing a homosexual sin, that has been said. Be careful with words it was translated and many words are a bit off from the original meaning... also reading the bible there are changes in history made, the book evolves so much from old testament to new testament...

Getting small passages will confuse you, and confuse others...

[MdR Dave]

I truly believe that at that time "stoning a woman" did mean to literallypelt her with stones as punishment.

I also believe that the original Aramaic word that has been changed to "virgin" (as in "virgin birth" or "virgin Mary") is more correctly translated to common woman- one who sleeps with many. That would be more amazing- a savior born of such a woman- but not as pretty.

We take what we want from these things.

Conservative Christians who hew to Leviticus are forgetting 1 John 4:17. Of course, that is in the NEW Testament- why would a Christian ever make that their primary guide? LOL!

[trish]

Yes, but see you are translating it how naive people would.I would contend that the scholars who provided all the translations to which my link refers are less naive than me. But the naivete of the translation is beside the point. All Bibles translate it as a command. Most readers, read it that way. A lot of readers simply ignore the passage because they disagree with the morality of that passage (whether it's mistranslated or not doesn't matter). Other people read it, take it to be God's command (whether it is on not, its translated that way in their Bible) and take it as the main reason to oppose gay marriage. I still don't see how these people are extremist in the sense that you described in a prior post. They might be mistaken. They might be misled by their translation of the Bible. But they are hardly extremist. They are certainly not exceptional or unusual as far a Christians go. The unusual Christian is the one with no first hand knowledge of classical Greek or Aramaic who disagrees with an arm's length list of translations of the relevant passage from Leviticus.


Prior to that passage it states no sin is greater than another, then those verse were said... This meant man to lie with another man is as much of a sin as a man to lie with a woman. Of course this is out of marriage. Stoning a woman for a sin she does not make better or repent, it also states unfaithful men to be punished in the same act of sin. is what it means, it doesn't mean stone her literally with stones to die, its a spiritual punishment. So stoning was just a metaphor for spiritual punishment. Well gee, why doesn't God make these things clearer. Doesn't he know that the Levites had to wait centuries before the New Testament would come along with a counterexample to the literal interpretation? For how many centuries were Levites murdering men and woman based on a mistaken interpretation of God's word. Without Jesus's example, how were they to know God's commend was just a metaphor?


But I don't think u will ever understand it to be honest with you, your spiritually closed off so theres no point for you to even try. You have your beliefs set.Doesn't that strike you as a bit elitist?

[EvonRose]

I would contend that the scholars who provided all the translations to which my link refers are less naive than me. But the naivete of the translation is beside the point. All Bibles translate it as a command. Most readers, read it that way. A lot of readers simply ignore the passage because they disagree with the morality of that passage (whether it's mistranslated or not doesn't matter). Other people read it, take it to be God's command (whether it is on not, its translated that way in their Bible) and take it as the main reason to oppose gay marriage. I still don't see how these people are extremist in the sense that you described in a prior post. They might be mistaken. They might be misled by their translation of the Bible. But they are hardly extremist. They are certainly not exceptional or unusual as far a Christians go. The unusual Christian is the one with no first hand knowledge of classical Greek or Aramaic who disagrees with an arm's length list of translations of the relevant passage from Leviticus.

So stoning was just a metaphor for spiritual punishment. Well gee, why doesn't God make these things clearer. Doesn't he know that the Levites had to wait centuries before the New Testament would come along with a counterexample to the literal interpretation? For how many centuries were Levites murdering men and woman based on a mistaken interpretation of God's word. Without Jesus's example, how were they to know God's commend was just a metaphor?

The commandments are clear, If one tells you to stone a woman as someone who really believes and understand in the word knows this is not right, everyone is entitled for better life. And forgiveness. No amount of skepticism will prove this wrong. Of course there is wrong in all forms of places religious or not, but it is the believer's responsibility to act and have a personal relationship with god and and not the people or church... Follow one god, and following a priest or leader that leads people in the wrong direction is wrong....

Christians and atheists have both done some annoying throat shoving, like i said I don't see any difference they are the same, just different beliefs...

There are some morally corrupt christians and some morally corrupt atheists... But there are good in all i believe...

Christians and atheist live in black and white, I choose to live in rainbows!!!!!

[SammiValentine]

This is my church This is where I heal my hurt

[trish]

The commandments are clear, If one tells you to stone a woman as someone who really believes and understand in the word knows this is not right,But it's not the word that tells you it's not right...it is your understanding of the word. Your understanding cannot be found in the word itself, but is informed by your upbringing, your experience and your reason. The word can be used by people to justify all sorts of atrocities, and they don't have to twist it to do so. The word alone is insufficient to determine moral conduct. You need to bring your own intelligence and your own experience to the interpretation of the word. That is my point. If you want to call that intelligence and experience your personal relationship with god that's fine by me as long as you're not literally hearing voices in your head.

[south ov da border]

there is a creator, but who or what it is I have no clue. All I know is the Acronym God stands for Geometry of Design.

[south ov da border]

and I try to stay away from anything or anyone saying Bible this Bible that, because it is translated with an agenda in mind. And it's all astro- theology anyway...

[EvonRose]

But it's not the word that tells you it's not right...it is your understanding of the word. Your understanding cannot be found in the word itself, but is informed by your upbringing, your experience and your reason. The word can be used by people to justify all sorts of atrocities, and they don't have to twist it to do so. The word alone is insufficient to determine moral conduct. You need to bring your own intelligence and your own experience to the interpretation of the word. That is my point. If you want to call that intelligence and experience your personal relationship with god that's fine by me as long as you're not literally hearing voices in your head.

Yes you are correct with that, people do twist the word of the bible to justify the wrong, but its's still wrong. Just like people twist the law to justify their actions. Intelligence has a lot to do with what you know if you do not the the bible or have the openness to allow yourself to feel that spirituality you will never get it, just like if you don't have an analytical mind you will never get where atheist come from.

My only problem is atheists need to stop asking questions they cannot answer. Christians always have an answer to their questions even if it is out of this world they still do, it is hard to argue facts with supernatural, but its easy to argue supernatural with facts... Im not saying it's right or wrong, but atheists would appear more intelligent if they just left it alone.

[Faldur]

The Bible is a very complex and at times confusing document. I believe if your a Christian you study it, in hopes of learning how better to live. The Old Testament didn't work. Man was, and is incapable of living without sin. Its why Jesus came into this world, to be the last and perfect sacrifice for mankind.

Jesus came to save sinners, all sinners.

[trish]

My only problem is atheists need to stop asking questions they cannot answer. Really! It annoys you that people ask difficult questions? You want them to stop trying 'cause they'll never get it? Their minds are set? That all strikes me as elitist. I have no problems with theists generally. I'm simply not one. Problems arise when someone thinks he has the absolute truth and insists it be inscribed into the law of land. When the issue is creationism in the public schools or the encoding of false moralities into our laws (e.g. the protection of marriage act) I get my dander up. When the issues are simply philosophical (as in most of this conversation) I'm just happy to explore the various nuances of our positions. To me, nuances are rainbows!!!!

[trish]

Going out for brunch. See ya'all later.

[Silcc69]

LOL shouldn't this be on the religion thread?

[EvonRose]

Really! It annoys you that people ask difficult questions? You want them to stop trying 'cause they'll never get it? Their minds are set? That all strikes me as elitist. I have no problems with theists generally. I'm simply not one. Problems arise when someone thinks he has the absolute truth and insists it be inscribed into the law of land. When the issue is creationism in the public schools or the encoding of false moralities into our laws (e.g. the protection of marriage act) I get my dander up. When the issues are simply philosophical (as in most of this conversation) I'm just happy to explore the various nuances of our positions. To me, nuances are rainbows!!!!

But isn't that the same on your case? christian think they are right, atheist think they are right? Christians say no to gay marriage, atheists say take out the word GOD in the pledge of allegiance. Its just never ending, atheists are very sensitive to the thought of a higher being, We get it you don't believe it. My personal arguments with an atheist are a bit more difficult than to tell a christian I don't believe in a god. They have their explanations for thing that makes me actually amused, but atheists I never really get how can you argue or ask questions to someone who doesn't believe in this matter? They eliminate every possibility, every chance front he getco, i personally can't. the universe is so big, and probably infinite. How can we say we know what has never been discovered or explored, I mean on earth alone we discover like what 5 different species of animals alone.... So who is to say we know what the future holds?

[south ov da border]

I gerw up in church, 6 days a week. I got to the point where I felt uncomforable going because it was mostly about why you are not a good person, how you have an illness and for only 10% of your earnings you can buy yourself into the ultimate pyrmid scheme.

I don't hate religious people. I dislike when they believe that their way is the only true one. I've had enough visions, visitations and trips to know better...

[Nicole Dupre]

Btw have you heard about the Tranny Strip Party? Lol

[trish]

No. Tell us the one about the Tranny Strip Party.

[trish]

But isn't that the same on your case? christian think they are right, atheist think they are right? Christians say no to gay marriage, atheists say take out the word GOD in the pledge of allegiance.No Evon. Anyone can see they are not the same. The pledge of allegience (personally I don’t think children are old enough to pledge their allegiences to anyone or any institution___but that’s a different beef) was adopted in 1942. A Christian movement, in spite of Constitutional strictures against it, managed in 1954 to insert the words, “under God.” Had it been a movenment of activist Atheists (of course there wasn't then and is not now any such movement) the insertion would’ve read, “one godless nation concieved in liberty etc. etc.” See the difference? Not mentioning any gods at all is the compromise position endorsed by the writers of the first amendment. Putting in “under God” or “godless” are the extreme positions.

Furthermore, even if gays are given the right to legal marriage, various Churches can still legally refuse to grant them religious marriage in the eyes of God. Legal marriage has no jurisdiction within the Church. It is not an infringment on religious freedom. To deny gays the right to religious marriage is within the perogative of the various churches. To deny them the legal right to marriage based on religious argument is to impose religious strictures on the government and its citizens regardless of their religion.


Its just never ending, atheists are very sensitive to the thought of a higher being, We get it you don't believe it. My personal arguments with an atheist are a bit more difficult than to tell a christian I don't believe in a god. They have their explanations for thing that makes me actually amused, but atheists I never really get how can you argue or ask questions to someone who doesn't believe in this matter?What you’re saying is you don’t know how to counter rational arguments that deconstruct religious concepts. I’m not surprised. If the deconstruction is correct, then there is no way to defend against it. It would be like trying to square a circle. The opposite problem is how does a non-believer make arguments to a believer. The White Queen confessed to Alice that she believed six impossible things everyday before breakfast. Alice was justifiably perplexed.

[Nicole Dupre]

All threads must be Tranny Strip Party related. It's in the TS bible. ;-)

[south ov da border]

creation and faith are illogical to the mind that cannot grasp the concept of infinite...

[martin48]

All threads must be Tranny Strip Party related. It's in the TS bible. ;-)

Not another Bible - we have enough trouble with the original one

[EvonRose]

No Evon. Anyone can see they are not the same. The pledge of allegience (personally I don’t think children are old enough to pledge their allegiences to anyone or any institution___but that’s a different beef) was adopted in 1942. A Christian movement, in spite of Constitutional strictures against it, managed in 1954 to insert the words, “under God.” Had it been a movenment of activist Atheists (of course there wasn't then and is not now any such movement) the insertion would’ve read, “one godless nation concieved in liberty etc. etc.” See the difference? Not mentioning any gods at all is the compromise position endorsed by the writers of the first amendment. Putting in “under God” or “godless” are the extreme positions.

Furthermore, even if gays are given the right to legal marriage, various Churches can still legally refuse to grant them religious marriage in the eyes of God. Legal marriage has no jurisdiction within the Church. It is not an infringment on religious freedom. To deny gays the right to religious marriage is within the perogative of the various churches. To deny them the legal right to marriage based on religious argument is to impose religious strictures on the government and its citizens regardless of their religion.

What you’re saying is you don’t know how to counter rational arguments that deconstruct religious concepts. I’m not surprised. If the deconstruction is correct, then there is no way to defend against it. It would be like trying to square a circle. The opposite problem is how does a non-believer make arguments to a believer. The White Queen confessed to Alice that she believed six impossible things everyday before breakfast. Alice was justifiably perplexed.

There is history in religion, so if at that time the pledge was made i actual think its disrespectful to change anything from the pledge just because one does not believe in a god. It's silly... it is history god or not.

Now these days marriage doesn't have to go trough a church, if your atheist then why would you want to get married in a church anyway? If you can't get married here I'm sure there are options for gays to marry. i can understand refusing the right to marry i the church but there are states that legally marry you now.

No matter how you put it a christian will always have the answer to back up they're claim, atheist don't.. If you ask a christian why does god exist? they have an answer yes even if it is out of the norm they still got an answer, if you ask an atheist why he doesn't? theres really no support. The only thing they can say is there is no proof...

If a christian was to ask me if i believe in god, I would ask questions... but closing yourself of to any of the possibility just closes any questions, any answer, any possibility? so why keep going around in circles?

So what? is the answer to force everyone not to believe in a faith? majority will always win there are more people who have some sort of belief to the ones who don't. they are not less intelligent,t hey are not crazy, or delusional. One mind cannot fathom another...

[Tank183]

:thumbsdownso many godless people on this site


Because you don't believe in God doesn't make an unmoral person or evil

People of Religion look down on people who watch, look or do porn your are on a Porn forum

I am atheist but I don't look down on people of religion for look at porn people need stimulation

if God exist why did he give us theses feeling of sexual needs, people of religion say thats the devil well wouldn't that mean the devil help to create us

you can't just take the parts you want out of your bible & ignore the parts that conflict with your human needs & wants while downing those who don't believe in God

All Bibles are written by Men, they didn't fall from the sky & God said follow theses books or just the parts you want

people of religion are often the most sexual perverse because they suppress threir sexual needs I like Women, I like Men, I like shemales I don't fight those feelings


I am not argue with anyone I am just saying you can't have it both ways

[trish]

There is history in religion, so if at that time the pledge was made i actual think its disrespectful to change anything from the pledge just because one does not believe in a god. It's silly... it is history god or not.I think you misunderstand. The history is that the pledge did not at its inception use the phrase "under God". It was the Christians who were disrespectful to the original form of the pledge simply because they did believe in god. They're the one's who are silly. It's history, god or not.

[trish]

Now these days marriage doesn't have to go trough a church, if your atheist then why would you want to get married in a church anyway? The subject here is gay marriage, not atheist marriage.

[martin48]

Deuteronomy 22:5


The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.



Well, that's what the Bible says. So if you choose ignore this bit or you better leave this evil website :D

[trish]

No matter how you put it a christian will always have the answer to back up they're claim, atheist don't.. If you ask a christian why does god exist? they have an answer yes even if it is out of the norm they still got an answer, if you ask an atheist why he doesn't? theres really no support. The only thing they can say is there is no proof...That's the way burden of proof works in science and logic. If you claim p, a proof a p is required. If you're not claiming belief in p, you don't need to do a damn thing. I sorry, but logic just works that way.

[russtafa]

Because you don't believe in God doesn't make an unmoral person or evil

People of Religion look down on people who watch, look or do porn your are on a Porn forum

I am atheist but I don't look down on people of religion for look at porn people need stimulation

if God exist why did he give us theses feeling of sexual needs, people of religion say thats the devil well wouldn't that mean the devil help to create us

you can't just take the parts you want out of your bible & ignore the parts that conflict with your human needs & wants while downing those who don't believe in God

All Bibles are written by Men, they didn't fall from the sky & God said follow theses books or just the parts you want

people of religion are often the most sexual perverse because they suppress threir sexual needs I like Women, I like Men, I like shemales I don't fight those feelings


I am not argue with anyone I am just saying you can't have it both waysmost of your fellow heathens do ,they look down on people who consider the possibility of a god but lack the courage to go to funeral and suggest it to people attending one:tongue:

[EvonRose]

Because you don't believe in God doesn't make an unmoral person or evil

People of Religion look down on people who watch, look or do porn your are on a Porn forum

I am atheist but I don't look down on people of religion for look at porn people need stimulation

if God exist why did he give us theses feeling of sexual needs, people of religion say thats the devil well wouldn't that mean the devil help to create us

you can't just take the parts you want out of your bible & ignore the parts that conflict with your human needs & wants while downing those who don't believe in God

All Bibles are written by Men, they didn't fall from the sky & God said follow theses books or just the parts you want

people of religion are often the most sexual perverse because they suppress threir sexual needs I like Women, I like Men, I like shemales I don't fight those feelings


I am not argue with anyone I am just saying you can't have it both ways

I don't know any christians i know look down on non believers or think your evil, I do know some atheist think believers are crazy tough... I am not religious never claimed it i am agnostic. I approach things trying to learn and understand. I understand why they believe and understand why you don't, what i don't get is the way atheist approaches a subject.

You complain about christians dominating the government, then why is porn legal? Music industry, movies, social networking, all these proves its not ran by religion. I don't see what the bible considers godly people running this country i don't. You mistake the cults within the religion. God never said you can't have sex, he never said you can't, watch porn, however isn't it strange to you that when people do abuse the freedom to have sex with people some get plaqued by std's or health is stricken from Hiv, or hep c? I am not one to say its a sin or immoral, i believe in human actions... We create and we destroy... But I'm not counting a god out of the equation.

[trish]

So what? is the answer to force everyone not to believe in a faith?No. But I'm not the one complaining about people who ask questions. I'm only complaining about people who want biology teachers to teach Christianity and fundamentalists who legislate against gays based on what you claim is a misinterpretation of Leviticus.

[EvonRose]

The subject here is gay marriage, not atheist marriage.

Right so tell me why gay people want to get married in churches again? if they can't?

[EvonRose]

No. But I'm not the one complaining about people who ask questions. I'm only complaining about people who want biology teachers to teach Christianity and fundamentalists who legislate against gays based on what you claim is a misinterpretation of Leviticus.

Well guess what those people are not going to succeed in it, because even majority of the christians believe education is important too, we do have scientist, and teachers for reasons...

[trish]

You complain about christians dominating the government, then why is porn legal? Music industry, movies, social networking, all these proves its not ran by religion.You may not know, but the press and the entertainment industry is always under constant pressure of prudes to legislate further strictures. The current rating system was an attempt by the industry to keep the government under the pressure of Christian groups to institute a governmental rating scheme.

[russtafa]

Right so tell me why gay people want to get married in churches again? if they can't?these people want it both ways :Bowdown::Bowdown:

[trish]

Right so tell me why gay people want to get married in churches again? if they can't?Uh, because they're Christian. Their families are Christian. Their friends are Christian. They want to adopt and bring up their children in the Church. But that's not the issue. The issue is that activist Christians don't want them to get married outside or inside the Church.

[EvonRose]

That's the way burden of proof works in science and logic. If you claim p, a proof a p is required. If you're not claiming belief in p, you don't need to do a damn thing. I sorry, but logic just works that way.

You miss the point, your logic is not their logic... So by asking a question you atheist can't answer you put yourself at a dead end. Why would you ask "if god exist?" if you already know he does not? you feed on to validate their point. That one question opens up the doubt that you don't believe... Questioning the bible, god, the commandments, the scripture everything and you don't realize it. if i came across a christian who told me god exist because this and that i would just respect that, same as to an atheist, but when one says they are self righteous, i think both are self righteous. sorry to say but it's my opinion neither one can just shut up and mind their business sometimes...

[trish]

You miss the point, your logic is not their logicLogic is logic.
Why would you ask "if god exist?" if you already know he does not? You aren't listening. Non-belief doesn't claim knowledge of anything. Besides, "if god exist?" isn't a question, it's a hypothesis. Anyone is allow to put forth a hypothesis and draw conclusions to test them for sense they may or may not contain. I don't believe there's an integer that's strictly less than itself. But I can suppose that there is one to prove that there isn't one. I already showed you how that works a few pages back.

[EvonRose]

You may not know, but the press and the entertainment industry is always under constant pressure of prudes to legislate further strictures. The current rating system was an attempt by the industry to keep the government under the pressure of Christian groups to institute a governmental rating scheme.

As it should, there are some things i don't want my kids f I did to see...I mean people in the 7th grade are having sex already.... come on, i love sex but there has to be some sort of age limit..

[EvonRose]

Logic is logic. You aren't listening. Non-belief doesn't claim knowledge of anything. Besides, "if god exist?" isn't a question, it's a hypothesis. Anyone is allow to put forth a hypothesis and draw conclusions to test them for sense they may or may not contain. I don't believe there's an integer that's strictly less than itself. But I can suppose that there is one to prove that there isn't one. I already showed you how that works a few pages back.

No thats where i think your wrong, you are thinking from your analytical mind, their logic and the truth that they believe in is not yours, that is why you are never gonna win.

"If god exist then why does he allow bad things to happen?" Yet you don't believe in a god, but you question a god? As an agnostic I already know the answer before they say it, and as an analytical mind as well, I know god has nothing to do with it.

Like I said the universe is so big, probably infinite, how are we so sure? its not like we explores a galaxy far far away, ( star wars) so as someone who takes everything in and observes I can't help but to wonder, so i can see where the believers come from. But i don't think they're aways right, and see your frustration in them, but at the same time why get frustrated if our set and stone on your belief.

[trish]

As it should, there are some things i don't want my kids f I did to see...I mean people in the 7th grade are having sex already.... come on, i love sex but there has to be some sort of age limit..
Good so you agree with the previous point that religious groups are successfully pressuring the legislature to implement their moral codes. You happen to agree with them. Good for you. Not so good for the Constitution and separation of Church and State.

[trish]

No thats where i think your wrong, you are thinking from your analytical mind, their logic and the truth that they believe in is not yours, that is why you are never gonna win.

"If god exist then why does he allow bad things to happen?" Yet you don't believe in a god, but you question a god? As an agnostic I already know the answer before they say it, and as an analytical mind as well, I know god has nothing to do with it.
I'm beginning to think you haven't followed a single word of our conversation. I never posed the question "If god exist then why does he allow bad things to happen?" My question is: by what authority does a god get to choose what's right and wrong? If he needs no authority other than he's a god, then what makes his morality anything other than a whim? If his authority is reason, then he is not the original authority of right and wrong, reason is. That corundum doesn't require one to take a stand on the question of theism. You can be a theist and pose it. Or you can be an atheist and pose it to a theist.

Back to the issue of logic. Really. Logic is logic. If not, tell me which rule of inference doesn't work in Christianity. Is it modus ponens? The law of the excluded middle? Please be specific.

[EvonRose]

Good so you agree with the previous point that religious groups are successfully pressuring the legislature to implement their moral codes. You happen to agree with them. Good for you. Not so good for the Constitution and separation of Church and State.

Some groups yes! However the injustice placed on some of the law no! As a human being wrong is wrong even of its cloaked in religious form. However I do believe religion and state always has to be separate...

[trish]

Some groups yes! However the injustice placed on some of the law no! As a human being wrong is wrong even of its cloaked in religious form. However I do believe religion and state always has to be separate...A point of agreement :D

[EvonRose]

A point of agreement :D

Yay trish! I also BELIEVE your nipples are suckable! lol..

[trish]

That was fun. But I need a break. Thanks for the discussion. Later.

[EvonRose]

That was fun. But I need a break. Thanks for the discussion. Later.

me too my fingers hurt and not from fingering myself...

[fred41]

most of your fellow heathens do ,they look down on people who consider the possibility of a god but lack the courage to go to funeral and suggest it to people attending one:tongue:
That would not be called a lack of courage...it would be called incredibly rude.

[russtafa]

That would not be called a lack of courage...it would be called incredibly rude.when has that stopped most of you lot ,only courage or lack of or just tell people your beliefs in working class pub and test the reaction .i have done it =got up on stage in a pub and told people my beliefs

[fred41]

when has that stopped most of you lot ,only courage or lack of or just tell people your beliefs in working class pub and test the reaction .i have done it =got up on stage in a pub and told people my beliefs

If someone asks me my religious belief....I'll tell them. Seems pretty simple.

But a funeral (or wake ) is a personal function to offer respect or condolences to a departed loved one or their family. It is NOT an appropriate forum on voicing one's religious beliefs (in fact it's tacky to the nth degree)

...and to just shout out your religious beliefs, at the top of your lungs, when no one has asked or even cares about one's answer, comes across as: drunkenness, mental illness, being an annoying fuck...or all three.

[Nicole Dupre]

just tell people your beliefs in working class pub and test the reaction .i have done it =got up on stage in a pub and told people my beliefsWhat a buzz kill that must be.

[russtafa]

what in Aussie it's pretty much accepted ,greenies,commies don't go near pubs like that unless they want to commit suicide

[Nicole Dupre]

You kill people who aren't regulars in your bars?

[trish]

Yeah, like going anywhere as a transgender woman doesn't already require courage, confidence and personal integrity.

A couple of years ago I attended my great aunt's funeral. She was a Christian. Our whole family is Christian. She was given a Christian service. It was about her. Her life; and her death. Why would I want to turn her funeral or anyone's into a show down on religion featuring my own point of view? Maybe when I die, I'll have my survivors show a vid clip where I expound upon my own beliefs. But until then you can blow it out your ass russtafa. Try practicing the motto in your own signature for a change: live with honour.

[russtafa]

yeah just kick the shit out of them why not ?specially if they look like rich folks ,trendys ,university types

[Nicole Dupre]

yeah just kick the shit out of them why not ?specially if they look like rich folks ,trendys ,university types
Fascinating.

And do you go on stage in these pubs and tell everyone that you spend so much time on a site like this that's loaded with cock shots? Do all your friends cheer you on for loving cock? Or is that where you draw the line on having courage?

[russtafa]

:tongue:no but i do tell them i'm against boaties,greenies,commos trendy lefties and they should be beaten shitless how's that

[Nicole Dupre]

:tongue:no but i do tell them i'm against boaties,greenies,commos trendy lefties and they should be beaten shitless how's that
That sounds like you just want to fit in. That doesn't sound like courage.

It sounds like you're scared they'll think you're a queer. No? Why don't you just tell them you're a little different. Ask them if that makes you gay and see what they say. Ask the whole bar.

[russtafa]

my doggies barking again

[muh_muh]

When it come down to it, it is this ways of man that lead to that lifestyle, a child being born in slavery is due to the impact that men do not change their ways, its only after man changed their ways about slavery here that it gave opportunities to african younger generations.

That's not the point I'm aiming at. What I was trying to get across is that t is impossible to reconcile the fundamental unfairness of birth, e.g. a child born with Bill Gates as the father vs. a child being born in Somalia, with the idea of a fair and benevolent god. It simply does not add up on any level.


atheist think they are different, but they are the same on the oppose spectrum in therms of the closeness of their belief...

You are getting your definitions muddled up. An atheist is not necessarily anti religion.


To me forcing one to believe your religion, especially in the christians view it is to the extreme, its ventures out of the purpose of what the believers are meant to be, therefore they are not true believers.

Straight from the horses mouth:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2028:19-28:20&version=KJ21


Reading into different religions I stand by my view that it has been a moral structure for morality, why do we all think its wrong to kill? or rape? or steal? or hurt someone? There is a root...

There is growing evidence that animals (which for all that we know do not have religion) have morals:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html
It would appear that it is rather large evolutionary advantage for a social animal, if not the very fundamental requirement for a social group to work at all, to follow the basic principle of treating its peers like they would like to be treated.


Even einstein who was agnostic said Jesus was one of the greatest teacher for this very purpose. "Love thy neighbor as to love yourself" in short is treat everyone equally

While that is all well and true it is also true that plenty of other philosophical concepts have come up with essentially the same moral code some of them irrespective of any gods.


If a christian was to ask me if i believe in god, I would ask questions... but closing yourself of to any of the possibility just closes any questions, any answer, any possibility? so why keep going around in circles?

First of all there are plenty of arguments against the exitstence of a god as it is usually conceptualized the most well know of which is probably the creation of a heavy stone one.
Secondly atheism is not the philosophy that has any need to prove itself since it doesnt postulate anything thus having nothing that needs to be proven.


Right so tell me why gay people want to get married in churches again? if they can't?

Unless I missed something major currently gays cannot get married in the US regardless of whether they are inside or outside of churches; at least not in all states.


Why would you ask "if god exist?" if you already know he does not?

Proof by contradiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction)
One of the most fundamental ways to make a point.


A couple of years ago I attended my great aunt's funeral. She was a Christian. Our whole family is Christian. She was given a Christian service. It was about her. Her life; and her death.

Let's not forget that there is no reason why you would have to be crhistian or any other faith for that matter to attend or even to conduct a funeral. The act of bidding farewell to a loved one is a human desire irrespective of faith.

[Jamie French]

I don't get this thread, why would anybody doubt the existence of Zeus? He's certainly in my heart.

[EvonRose]

[QUOTE=muh_muh;1102708]That's not the point I'm aiming at. What I was trying to get across is that t is impossible to reconcile the fundamental unfairness of birth, e.g. a child born with Bill Gates as the father vs. a child being born in Somalia, with the idea of a fair and benevolent god. It simply does not add up on any level.
I don't think you know Bill gates enough to assume everything is good, I think many privileged people suffer their own battles in life, one may not see it but we never now how happy the person in somalia is or how sad bill gates kids are.



I know that, but in order for that atheist to be in that religion the religion has to have no deity based or supernatural base. What we speak of are, so therefore not on this topic.

If they believe animals have morals then i dare them to go to africa and play with the lions, lets see how that study hold up.

Science does not explain everything, science cannot explain these examples

The giant stone ball of Costa Rica

The baigong pipes

The antikeytyra machanism

The glosolia

The vonich manuscript

The bagdhad batteries

There are things that exist yet cannot be explained, so why can't I believe that there may be things undiscovered and unexplained. Again in this infinite universe with black holes that might lead to other galaxy or dimensions do you really think were alone?

There are six states that legalize gay marriage... It probably is not trough church, If the purpose is to go against the teaching of the church with gay marriage why then get married there? it doesn't make sense... You don't support one thing yet by attending the services it kind of goes against what you are fighting for... If i was gay and fighting against the churches for my freedom no way in hell am i gonna step foot in a fucking church!

[buttslinger]

It's not about God, it's about Salvation, The nature of the God when we are awake is EXACTLY the nature of the God when we're asleep.

[trish]

There are six states that legalize gay marriage... It probably is not trough church, If the purpose is to go against the teaching of the church with gay marriage why then get married there? it doesn't make sense... You don't support one thing yet by attending the services it kind of goes against what you are fighting for... If i was gay and fighting against the churches for my freedom no way in hell am i gonna step foot in a fucking church! The purpose of gay marriage is not to go against the teaching of the church. The issue is the Christian churches oppose the right of the State to marry gays. Gays would like to claim the right to legal marriage sanctioned by the State and like other legal marriages have their unions recognized by all the States. But many churches and Christians oppose, on religious grounds, State sanctioned gay marriage. I can understand Christians may reserve the right to refuse to perform or recognize the sanctity of gay marriage. But to refuse to recognize the civil right of gays to be married by the State is overstepping the bounds of the first amendment. Gays are not fighting the Churches (which you seem to claim), they are fighting conservatives within the various State legislatures who are in turned supported by the Churches for their efforts to stop State sanctioned gay marriage.

That some gays would like to be married before God is a totally different issue, albeit an understandable one. If you were gay but grew up in the traditions of a specific religious denomination, it is perfectly natural to want to be married in that tradition and bring up your own children in that tradition. But again that's NOT the issue. The issue is

Christian churches are supporting (with money and labor, and for religious reasons only) efforts to derail the movement to grant gays the right to legal State sanctioned marriage. That is simply not right, and it flies in the face of the first amendment.

[muh_muh]

I don't think you know Bill gates enough to assume everything is good, I think many privileged people suffer their own battles in life, one may not see it but we never now how happy the person in somalia is or how sad bill gates kids are.

Seriously? You're honestly going to claim that the hardships of a child that will get the best education the US has to offer are in any way shape or form comparable to that of a child that will most probably not even reach maturity?


If they believe animals have morals then i dare them to go to africa and play with the lions, lets see how that study hold up.

More intellectual dishonesty I'm afraid. First of all following your logic all moral christians would have to be vegetarians. Secondly since when has morality ever extended past anyones own species?


Science does not explain everything, science cannot explain these examples

The giant stone ball of Costa Rica

The baigong pipes

The antikeytyra machanism

The glosolia

The vonich manuscript

The bagdhad batteries

There are things that exist yet cannot be explained

And more of the same pattern. What exactly are a bunch of archeological mysteries supposed to prove? Not knowing the exact motivations of people that lived thousands of years ago does in no way disprove the truth behind basic logic.


There are six states that legalize gay marriage

And what about the civil rights of the however many GLBT couples in the 44 other states?

[trish]

Science does not explain everything...There are things that exist yet cannot be explained, so why can't I believe that there may be things undiscovered and unexplained. Yes, yes. A few pages back you got three people, including me, saying "Of course, science can't explain everything." So what? Where does that get you? No one is saying science does explain everything, nor does anyone make any use of the claim that it does. There are many things that are undiscovered or will remain unknown. We'll probably never know how big Plato's erect cock was. It's a mystery. You not only are allowed to believe there are unexplained things, but you can actually give examples of things that will probably never be explained or known. The marvelous thing about the unknowable is that when someone claims to know something about the unknowable, it's okay not to believe them. Indeed it's probably the safe bet. You believe in God? Yes? Fine. Can you prove there's a god? Of course you can't. So I'm free not to believe. The difference between our positions is that you made a commitment to the truth of a proposition and I did not. Having made no commitment, I'm not obligated to provide a proof. It doesn't matter that science can't prove everything; atheism is not obligated to prove anything. It's only obligation is to accept any correct proof of theism were someone were ever to produce one. Believers have a symmetric obligation: should there be a correct proof that their particular conceptualization of god is absurd, they must accept the proof or suffer the charge of intellectual dishonesty.

Am I telling any theists here they're wrong? Only the ones who believe in demonstrably unlikely gods, like Zeus, Thor and Jehovah. But if there's no proof that your god is a ridiculous (say you believe in a sort of Negalian pantheism), then good for you...believe away...don't let my non-belief stop you.

[noble1337]

I don't get this thread, why would anybody doubt the existence of Zeus? He's certainly in my heart.

well, theres as much evidence that he exists as there is for the christian god. plus, he answers questions that science can not!
therefor, it makes total sense!

btw Christians, do you believe in Noah's Ark?...and if not, doesnt that mean youre just picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe in?...

[Jamie French]

Derp... kinda my point! Jokes suck when they are explained away...

Although you are correct, most times it's better to just let smart ass comments stand on there own. That's just plain 'ol Comedy 101.



well, theres as much evidence that he exists as there is for the christian god. plus, he answers questions that science can not!
therefor, it makes total sense!

btw Christians, do you believe in Noah's Ark?...and if not, doesnt that mean youre just picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe in?...

[Instrumental]

It's always amusing how religious people try to use ignorance (we don't know this or that) to justify their beliefs. Not knowing isn't a valid excuse to make something up. You can't make a conclusion off of not knowing because that's what it means to not know. So when you say I believe in God because we don't know how such and such came about, you're just blowing hot air. It is the typical "God of Gaps" argument that has been used throughout all of human history and it's just as ignorant then as it is now. Atheism is certainly not the same concept of religion just on a different part of the scale. Atheism exists because of a complete lack of evidence. Religion exists in spite of that fact. That fundamental difference is why religion and atheism are not one and the same on different sides of the same spectrum.

Furthermore, believing in God is just one assumption, believing in a religion is an entire set of assumptions that you also must justify. And quite frankly, I can't understand why anyone knowledgeable of the Bible would want to follow someone as morally bereft and despicable as the deity depicted within.

Also, if you have the time for these two lectures, they are quite informative:
Neil deGrasse Tyson: The Perimeter of Ignorance - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1te01rfEF0g)
&#39;A Universe From Nothing&#39; by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo)

[buttslinger]

Here's proof of something, I'm not sure what....



Tamm Faye Messner Last Interview (Very small clip) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLM_FkKKzrs)

[Yvonne183]

I would say yes, that I pick and choose what I believe. I don't think it is wrong for me to do that, maybe some will say that I am wrong but I don't. That is why I don't argue word for word what is written in the Bible. I also kinda stay away from the Old Testament and and keep my faith with the Jesus part of the Bible. I want to believe that there is something more, a spiritual world so to speak and if that means I choose the bits that satisfy my feelings then that is what I do. I also understand that the Bible is written by man and could have it's flaws, but it doesn't take away from me the concept of a God.

I am curious,, if one has a loved one who is very ill in the hospital. And when you see this loved one who might die,, when you visit this person do you say "I hope they get better", are you saying I "hope" science makes the person better or does the word hope have more meaning than just relying on science to save your friend's life? There have been miracles that were unexplained by science of people being cured of cancer and illness and such. When you see your friend dying do you "hope" that you might also want this person to be on the receiving end of one of these unexplained miracles, or do you just rely on science being the only answer. And if you do have "hope" that your friend is to live, if it's not science that is the only thing that can save your friend, then where does this hope come from? I am not anti science, I just believe there is something else when someone says they hope their loved one will live, I believe using the word hope is more than just science.

As I said before, I don't care what others think. I will live and believe the things I want to. For the liberals out there this is called the right to choose. I never called anyone else with different religious views than me as being ignorant. I don't care if no one else believes, people choose whatever they want, I don't push my religious views on others. I am quite happy if I am the only person here that believes in God, it doesn't matter to me what others choose in their lives.

[russtafa]

I would say yes, that I pick and choose what I believe. I don't think it is wrong for me to do that, maybe some will say that I am wrong but I don't. That is why I don't argue word for word what is written in the Bible. I also kinda stay away from the Old Testament and and keep my faith with the Jesus part of the Bible. I want to believe that there is something more, a spiritual world so to speak and if that means I choose the bits that satisfy my feelings then that is what I do. I also understand that the Bible is written by man and could have it's flaws, but it doesn't take away from me the concept of a God.

I am curious,, if one has a loved one who is very ill in the hospital. And when you see this loved one who might die,, when you visit this person do you say "I hope they get better", are you saying I "hope" science makes the person better or does the word hope have more meaning than just relying on science to save your friend's life? There have been miracles that were unexplained by science of people being cured of cancer and illness and such. When you see your friend dying do you "hope" that you might also want this person to be on the receiving end of one of these unexplained miracles, or do you just rely on science being the only answer. And if you do have "hope" that your friend is to live, if it's not science that is the only thing that can save your friend, then where does this hope come from? I am not anti science, I just believe there is something else when someone says they hope their loved one will live, I believe using the word hope is more than just science.

As I said before, I don't care what others think. I will live and believe the things I want to. For the liberals out there this is called the right to choose. I never called anyone else with different religious views than me as being ignorant. I don't care if no one else believes, people choose whatever they want, I don't push my religious views on others. I am quite happy if I am the only person here that believes in God, it doesn't matter to me what others choose in their lives.
you go for it:Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown:but these people are commies and would like to ban any use of the word god

[Mayrah]

My beliefs has always been neutral and it probably always will. Whether there is a god or not, i'd like to think there is, but if there isnt, then i wouldnt feel sad about it one bit.

[south ov da border]

For not wanting to be on either side of the fence, I'd say do some research into near death experience www.nderf.org (http://www.nderf.org)

[Nicole Dupre]

Hope and prayer happen somewhere between the reptilian brain and the cortex, but they're not a lot more complicated than being a basic function of the nervous system. I don't know why people feel that anything as predictable as a human nervous system needs to have some type of other-worldly, metaphysical origins or qualities. Love and fear can be gaged by electronic instruments, and the living human body is basically water, salt, chemicals, and electricity. So if you have to believe in something, believe in love being a very important energy in the world and a very clean fuel to run your nervous system on.

You people, who need religion to frame common reality, act as if the people who don't need religion are not conscious beings who are capable of love, morality, and having a very organic personality. Well I think your religion is fear-based, and fear in and of itself is EVIL. People who traumatize and over-tax your reptilian brains with fear of god and his laws, and who put a stranglehold on your cortex's reasoning capabilities, are EVIL. Religion is a form of mind control. Evon claims it's not a cult. But I think all three of the Abrahamic religions, along with a bunch of others, are indeed sanctioned, insidious cults. I don't blame people who are born into such mental slavery or who are so overwhelmed by fear that they subscribe to them. But stay the hell out of my brain with your silly fear- and trauma-based voodoo. I'm perfectly capable of policing myself without basing my life on myths.

Ya know, myths are just wonderful if they teach you something, and if they stimulate your brain to become a more loving, decent hman being. But very often they don't. Very often they're used to control people. Very often you have people like Russtafa, who claims to have god in his life, being a predator in some shithole bar somewhere, bullying people who don't believe his personal brand of dogmatic fairy tale. And meanwhile, he goes home to secretly masturbate to photographs of penises, because the other predators whose goon squad he's joined would string him up by his balls and slit his throat for even thiking about a penis other than his own. That's a god-fearing man for you. Pfffffft. *smfh Yeah. That's a chicken shit closet fag who is so damn threatened by his peer group that he's elected himself to be the local religious crusader.

This is why the "non-believers" want you people to just leave us the hell alone. Stop thinking you can enforce your fairy tales on us, you simpletons. Ya know what? Move to the Congo in Africa if you want to live in a world run by god-fearing Christians. But when they catch you doing anything having to do with penises or porn, they'll hack you apart with machetes and eat you. That's Christianity for you.

[EvonRose]

The purpose of gay marriage is not to go against the teaching of the church. The issue is the Christian churches oppose the right of the State to marry gays. Gays would like to claim the right to legal marriage sanctioned by the State and like other legal marriages have their unions recognized by all the States. But many churches and Christians oppose, on religious grounds, State sanctioned gay marriage. I can understand Christians may reserve the right to refuse to perform or recognize the sanctity of gay marriage. But to refuse to recognize the civil right of gays to be married by the State is overstepping the bounds of the first amendment. Gays are not fighting the Churches (which you seem to claim), they are fighting conservatives within the various State legislatures who are in turned supported by the Churches for their efforts to stop State sanctioned gay marriage.

That some gays would like to be married before God is a totally different issue, albeit an understandable one. If you were gay but grew up in the traditions of a specific religious denomination, it is perfectly natural to want to be married in that tradition and bring up your own children in that tradition. But again that's NOT the issue. The issue is

Christian churches are supporting (with money and labor, and for religious reasons only) efforts to derail the movement to grant gays the right to legal State sanctioned marriage. That is simply not right, and it flies in the face of the first amendment.

But that is not the case anymore, These states recognize that marriage is not part of religion anymore, In that case you can get married just not in a church, some may grant you, but most likely no,bt the argument I'm trying to make is any educated person knows that churches by tradition will not support it, so why the need to get married in a church when you can have the same luxuries outside of? I can legally get married but i would not marry in a church.

I agree with you that banning marriage outside the church is wrong, because i do believe in equality. However your going to have to respect the churches and try marriage outside of it, at the end of the day it is you and your partner not you, your partner and the united states... Fighting for gay marriage to be seen equally will never happen, Just as other unjust social movements still happens now, like racism sexism, ageism, etc... The world isn't fair, but its your job to create that world around you.

If your parents sets out the rules in the house and you don't agree with it, you have two options, comply with the rules, or get out of the house for freedom. If the churches have their rules you either comply, or get the eff out!

[EvonRose]

I have witnessed poverty before, For awhile living in conditions where kids are getting malaria, tuberculosis, dengue fever... I have seen some of the happiest people without money, and death to them is nothing to be scared about, of course this has a lot to do with faith. However, it may be hard many people in the united states will never be content, the middle classes here would live wealthy in my country. And those people in my country are happy with what they have. Even of its nothing, because sometimes everything is nothing.


First of all I'm not christians, I am a vegetarian... Where in the bible does it say that? The bible quotes a prophet refusing to eat a certain meat, then god had said "times are crucial, you make the most of what god has given you" See what i'm saying atheists most often make claims that is so off... its crazy to me, if an atheists really wants to have a valid argument understand the scripture first...


If there are physical things unexplained, you really don't think astronomical things or forces unseen not be explained? its easier to explain physical things, yet some of these can't, I'm not surprised if unseen things were right under our noses and we can't even explain it at all... Wasn't religion created thousands of years ago also? So who are you to say you can't believe the purpose of religion created possibly happened then? You don't.


What about it? Do you really have to get married in 44 states? If you are determined to get married you make the most of what is given at this point, I think we need to see the growth that has come to be as oppose to wanting everything at once.

I read somewhere that, lesbian women are the 3-1 ratio in getting married, most of the gay male populations are not even interested in marriage. Just something cool to share nothing to support this discussion..

[martin48]

For not wanting to be on either side of the fence, I'd say do some research into near death experience www.nderf.org (http://www.nderf.org)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide

Maybe other explanations - but you can always hope against hope. I think that once I die, I will "exist" as the random firings in a few other people brains for a few years and that's it. A bugger but that's life or should I say "death"

[EvonRose]

Yes, yes. A few pages back you got three people, including me, saying "Of course, science can't explain everything." So what? Where does that get you? No one is saying science does explain everything, nor does anyone make any use of the claim that it does. There are many things that are undiscovered or will remain unknown. We'll probably never know how big Plato's erect cock was. It's a mystery. You not only are allowed to believe there are unexplained things, but you can actually give examples of things that will probably never be explained or known. The marvelous thing about the unknowable is that when someone claims to know something about the unknowable, it's okay not to believe them. Indeed it's probably the safe bet. You believe in God? Yes? Fine. Can you prove there's a god? Of course you can't. So I'm free not to believe. The difference between our positions is that you made a commitment to the truth of a proposition and I did not. Having made no commitment, I'm not obligated to provide a proof. It doesn't matter that science can't prove everything; atheism is not obligated to prove anything. It's only obligation is to accept any correct proof of theism were someone were ever to produce one. Believers have a symmetric obligation: should there be a correct proof that their particular conceptualization of god is absurd, they must accept the proof or suffer the charge of intellectual dishonesty.

Am I telling any theists here they're wrong? Only the ones who believe in demonstrably unlikely gods, like Zeus, Thor and Jehovah. But if there's no proof that your god is a ridiculous (say you believe in a sort of Negalian pantheism), then good for you...believe away...don't let my non-belief stop you.

I never said anything about science till this point, your mistaken me for someone else.

I could care less if you believe in nothing, I also could care less if you believe in peter pan... My point has been made in previous comments Your points are irrelevant to the believers. because your logic is not their logic... To you logic is something proven, theirs is something felt. I can't side with you to say everything has to be proven, especially in this case, science cannot prove spirituality or the unknown. Now unless I come up with ways to explore every planet, every star, every galaxy, go trough the milky way and the black hole in this universe, and if i see nothing then I will say I don't believe... But till then We don't have that luxury so the only luxury I have is to open of possibility...

I am saying studies are sometimes irrelevant to me... There are scientific studies to prove and show gay men are incapable of monogamy and have the highest rates of std, and sex partners than anyone else! This was not religious based but sciences based, does this study give gay men a bad light or just a fact? Sometimes studies are to try to explain something as religion is to explains ones spiritual faith...

[Nicole Dupre]

I believe in laws and I believe in religious morality because they both help certain people to stay the fuck out of my face. I appreciate that. I really do. But if you need he fear of god ie. religion to have a sense of morality, you're probably not the brightest bulb in the marquee. But whatever works. If it takes the cops, god, or me being prepared to feed you to the fish to keep you line, so be it.

This is NOT an intellectually advanced world culture we're living in. People hundreds of years from now will look down on us as barbarians and peasants, born into a system of voluntary slavery That's why I have very little fear; there's very little hope. And that's not being pessimistic either. I love and and embrace my life fully.

[EvonRose]

I believe in laws and I believe in religious morality because they both help certain people to stay the fuck out of my face. I appreciate that. I really do. But if you need he fear of god ie. religion to have a sense of morality, you're probably not the brightest bub in the marquee. But whatever works. If it takes the cops, god, or me being prepared to feed you to the fish to keep you line, so be it.

This is NOT an intellectually advanced world culture we're living in. People hundreds of years from now will look down on us as barbarians and peasants, born into a system of voluntary slavery That's why I have very little fear; there's very little hope. And that's not being pessimistic either. I love and and embrace my life fully.

Exactly this is what I have been trying to say.... People's egos are so big they think they know every thing, atheists, and believers alike... The world is so vast we don't know every thing.... in the future is where every things lies, people back in the day didn't know what the world would have come to be, we don't know where we will stand in 1,000 years....

They might kidnap me and turn me to robot with machine gun breasts for all I know...

[braveheart0219]

Evan your beauty and intellect makes me an optimist. Are you going out in NYC at all this week? Just seeing you is joyful!

[trish]

Evon, you explicitly referred to the limits of science in post 201; I was in part responding to that point.

[trish]

Straights can be married in the state of Maryland and move to Arizona or France or South Africa. Where ever they go they will have the rights accorded to married couples around the world. Unlike gays, their marriages don't dissolve when they cross a boarder or disembark a plane.

On the separate issue of gay marriage within a church: religious gays sometimes wish to be married before the eyes of god, not just the state and feel (in their logic) it has to be done by one with the religious authority to perform a religious marriage. Relating to your analogy: If teenager can't abide by his parents rules, there are way more than just two options to pursue. One option is to discuss the rules and perhaps negotiate a modification of them.

[russtafa]

hey Trish baby when are yah coming to Aussie so i can give you some good old Aussie loving yah sexy wench

[muh_muh]

I am curious,, if one has a loved one who is very ill in the hospital.

First of all I do; he's not currently in a hospital but he has spent more time than you can shake a stick at in hospitals over the last couple of years and for a while it looked rather grim and still does in many ways.
For the record he has been an atheist (or agnostic I never really dug deep into the nature of his nonbelief) for a long time now and to my knowledge has not run to some deity or other form of spirituality in the face of serious illness.


are you saying I "hope" science makes the person better or does the word hope have more meaning than just relying on science to save your friend's life?

Both to a certain extent.


There have been miracles that were unexplained by science of people being cured of cancer and illness and such.

And there is where we diverge massively. Anybody in medicine who isn' a victim of massive hubris know perfectly well that we are far away from fully understanding the human body and how it can be treated or treat itself. A body healing itself in ways that are not understood yet does not necessarily constitute a case of something magical happening just because we do not undertand what happened. Another case of the god of the gaps basically.
Specifically with cancer many of the current treatments basically amount to aiming a shotgun at the patient ond hoping that the pellets hit mostly cancer cells; the aim is getting better but we are still rather far off of having a proper treatment. And in fact this is true with almost any disease when you ever bother to read the pagefilling list of side effects on practically any medication.


And if you do have "hope" that your friend is to live, if it's not science that is the only thing that can save your friend, then where does this hope come from?

You do realize that human minds are perfectly capable of being irrational while being perfectly aware of the fact they are being irrational and being ok with that state of mind?


I have witnessed poverty before, For awhile living in conditions where kids are getting malaria, tuberculosis, dengue fever... I have seen some of the happiest people without money, and death to them is nothing to be scared about, of course this has a lot to do with faith. However, it may be hard many people in the united states will never be content, the middle classes here would live wealthy in my country. And those people in my country are happy with what they have. Even of its nothing, because sometimes everything is nothing.

Yes I'm certain a kid dying of starvation or dying before its even old enough to develop consciousness is absolutely delighted with his or her situation.
You're either being delusional on this point or intellectually dishonest i.e. you know damn well that your position is utterly wrong but refuse to admit it.


First of all I'm not christians, I am a vegetarian... Where in the bible does it say that? The bible quotes a prophet refusing to eat a certain meat, then god had said "times are crucial, you make the most of what god has given you" See what i'm saying atheists most often make claims that is so off... its crazy to me, if an atheists really wants to have a valid argument understand the scripture first...

Your point was that a lion would happily eat you for lunch therefore it cannot have morals. Thus by _your own_ logic any species that attacks and eats another species is either amoral or without morals.
Please try to at least follow your own reasoning otherwise this is just immensely tedious.


If there are physical things unexplained, you really don't think astronomical things or forces unseen not be explained? its easier to explain physical things, yet some of these can't, I'm not surprised if unseen things were right under our noses and we can't even explain it at all... Wasn't religion created thousands of years ago also? So who are you to say you can't believe the purpose of religion created possibly happened then? You don't.

Look up god of the gaps and realize how that way of thinking is a logical fallacy.
Besides we've had the scientific method for what now, 500 years maybe? No scientist in his or her right mind will claim that we know all the answers already; in fact they are well aware that some question may be unanswerable through observation. That doesn't mean however that postulating a magical being in the sky is a valid answer.


What about it? Do you really have to get married in 44 states? If you are determined to get married you make the most of what is given at this point, I think we need to see the growth that has come to be as oppose to wanting everything at once.

The fact of the matter is that its an inequality that must not be there. And the only reason why it is there in the first place is beacause of religious groups opposing the fair and equal treatment of GLBT couples.


hey Trish baby when are yah coming to Aussie so i can give you some good old Aussie loving yah sexy wench

I'll answer for you trish if I may: as soon as you tell your tough guy friends about your attraction to MTF transsexuals.

[russtafa]

they know and ill fuck you to honey i have a big one and i bet you will drop on yah knees you little sweety

[yosi]

Religions respond to critics respectfully.

.

:bs:

ask Salman Rushdi for details...............

99.9% of all wars happened because of religions , million of poeple were killed because of religions , my heart tells me that there isn't such a thing called god.

god is just an excuse for some poeple to feel they are on the right side, and all others are wrong .

[martin48]

I do love a good religious argument 'cos they never really get anywhere. You can't expect individuals to give up a faith that they grew up with and passionately believe in - in the face of all evidence against it or certainly none supporting it. Similarly you can't expect a non-believer to suddenly accept what they see as a fairy story.
Did you know that an anagram of russtafa is ‘fart as us’. I think it conceptualises his intellectual meticulousness well. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.

[EvonRose]

Evon, you explicitly referred to the limits of science in post 201; I was in part responding to that point.

You responded to that and said I commented about the science subject on previous thread, that was my first time to make that point, you mistaken me with another poster who mentioned about science... that was not me..

[SammiValentine]

:bs:

ask Salman Rushdi for details...............

99.9% of all wars happened because of religions , million of poeple were killed because of religions , my heart tells me that there isn't such a thing called god.
.

and if there was no "religion" causing wars you can be sure we would be fighting over something else, human nature.

[EvonRose]

Straights can be married in the state of Maryland and move to Arizona or France or South Africa. Where ever they go they will have the rights accorded to married couples around the world. Unlike gays, their marriages don't dissolve when they cross a boarder or disembark a plane.

On the separate issue of gay marriage within a church: religious gays sometimes wish to be married before the eyes of god, not just the state and feel (in their logic) it has to be done by one with the religious authority to perform a religious marriage. Relating to your analogy: If teenager can't abide by his parents rules, there are way more than just two options to pursue. One option is to discuss the rules and perhaps negotiate a modification of them.

Well, then what can you do? You have to create the life that is given to you not what is taken, your going to have to make the most of what it is for the time being because we are still evolving, just be happy there are states that legalize it as oppose to none... is it fair no? doable yes... there are churches that cater to gays, to not a closed off option, but you cannot just expect any church to do it.

Its font o think we could have it easy right? Because my parents never negotiated...simple, and when people don't negotiate you need to take action and make most of your means..

[EvonRose]

Your example is irrelevant because, this does not just happen to poverty stricken countries. Sometimes theres a chain reaction to things when countries like The united states chain reaction of events, the war we went to could have helped millions rather than destroy? Sometimes humans need to take responsibility for this and stop rationalizing their disbelief because of the cruelty of our nature at time. Go to Africa and feed a few people, or better yet save a life adopt a kid...I think the delusional ones are the ones who are capable of doing something yet they don't... Yet they argue the reason that they don't even help.


There is a word called inhumane, not all people attack or devour or hurt others, what was your point? Some actually help others, some go out of their way to make peace. You brought up a study that has not been proven, yet you criticize believers for believing something that is not proven... just saying, so i don't know how that is tedious, or are you just pulling words to appear smarter or possibly make me look delusional for believing the possibility of a higher power? the was never about organized religion mind you, its about the possibility of a higher being, I don't feel for once i was being tedious, I think I'm actually a bit rational observing both sides...

Well how do we even now its magical? what if it were physical objects or beings, you assume its magical but you leave out the possibility of physical possibility? That does not sound to scientifically correct.


There are some groups that do discriminate on GLBT, but it goes both ways, many christians try to stay away from harsh treatments of other people, but they get prosecuted by people like you who don't see the other side, just what is right in front of you, because you don't open yourself up enough to try to comprehend and understand everything...You see a group of christians who discriminate, then you assume all religion is based that way. It's a shame really atheist believe christians are brainwashed, in some cases I agree, but i also believe some atheists are brainwashed too... sorry...

[trish]

Theists just will never get it. Their minds are closed to the special logic that allows anyone, who is open to the void, to intuit the truth that non-belief is the liberating light that empties and frees the mind from the narrow, rigid strictures of belief. :)

[MdR Dave]

They might kidnap me and turn me to robot with machine gun breasts for all I know...

I've seen the plans. Breasts become beer taps. Guns are also retrofitted, to pre-ops only. (That should tell you where they go- and it makes for an easier head shot.)

[EvonRose]

Theists just will never get it. Their minds are closed to the special logic that allows anyone, who is open to the void, to intuit the truth that non-belief is the liberating light that empties and frees the mind from the narrow, rigid strictures of belief. :)

Yes that's what i have been trying to tell you, their minds and logic are "out of this world".

However I disagree with non belief to be the enlightening, its just as closed of as set and stone believing in a theists.

I think its better to keep an open mind with things, because i believe things come from a source, but thats what makes the world go round...

[EvonRose]

I've seen the plans. Breasts become beer taps. Guns are also retrofitted, to pre-ops only. (That should tell you where they go- and it makes for an easier head shot.)

By that time i won't have that part anymore....

[mrtrebus]

and if there was no "religion" causing wars you can be sure we would be fighting over something else, human nature.
True. It's overly simplistic to blame religion for most wars etc, however it has been instrumental in helping the cause of the bigot.

God doesn't exist by the way.
.

[trish]

However I disagree with non belief to be the enlightening,You're simply not open to. I don't expect you will ever understand. But all you have to do reach with your soul out to the logic of nothingness and there you will find the grace and mystery of non-belief.

[EvonRose]

You're simply not open to. I don't expect you will ever understand. But all you have to do reach with your soul out to the logic of nothingness and there you will find the grace and mystery of non-belief.

no sorry not interesting, its as boring as organized religion... sorry...

Life is a mystery, I'm not naive enough to think just because i believe in somethings thats the actual truth...

[trish]

So you don't see the analogy with your own posts?

[EvonRose]

So you don't see the analogy with your own posts?


Analogy of what? elaborate....

[yosi]

Life is a mystery, I'm not naive enough to think just because i believe in somethings thats the actual truth...


YOUR truth.

life is a BIG mystery , a BIG mystery is that poeple choose to see what they want to see and believe in the existence of something that doesn't exist : god.

that's MY truth

[buttslinger]

Bah! Humbug!

[muh_muh]

they know and ill fuck you to honey i have a big one and i bet you will drop on yah knees you little sweety

OK then post a video of you stading up in front of those bar crowds you speak of and publicly declaring your love for transsexual cocks.


Your example is irrelevant because, this does not just happen to poverty stricken countries. Sometimes theres a chain reaction to things when countries like The united states chain reaction of events, the war we went to could have helped millions rather than destroy? Sometimes humans need to take responsibility for this and stop rationalizing their disbelief because of the cruelty of our nature at time. Go to Africa and feed a few people, or better yet save a life adopt a kid...I think the delusional ones are the ones who are capable of doing something yet they don't... Yet they argue the reason that they don't even help.

You're completely straying away from the point which was that the realities of this world do not line up with the idea of a fair and benevolent god. And thus far you have failed do dispute this point.


You brought up a study that has not been proven, yet you criticize believers for believing something that is not proven...

Are you aware of how science works? First of all research into the intellectual capabailites of animals is a shockingly young field so naturally not all the truths have been found. Secondly unless someone finds something to disprove the research the article I linked to talks about it is already proven.


Well how do we even now its magical? what if it were physical objects or beings, you assume its magical but you leave out the possibility of physical possibility? That does not sound to scientifically correct.

Because every deity desribed by every religion I'm familiar with is something supernatural i.e. something outside the real of physics another, admitedly slightly loaded, word for which is magical.
"A deity[1] is a recognized preternatural or supernatural immortal being"
Deity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity)


You see a group of christians who discriminate, then you assume all religion is based that way.

No I do not and I have not the faintest idea where your're getting this from. I can also guarantee you that the day christians and other religions stop trying to actively limit civil liberties and impose their patently false beliefs like intelligent design on impressionable minds atheists will be a-ok with anyone worshipping whatever imaginary deity of their choosing in private

[traLika]

no sorry not interesting, its as boring as organized religion... sorry...

Life is a mystery, I'm not naive enough to think just because i believe in somethings thats the actual truth...


...and that's where you're entirely missing the point about athiesm.

Athiests don't think "just because I believe in somethings thats the actual truth". They simply doubt the existence of deities for logical and analytical reasons. There's nothing naive about that. On the contrary, I'd say it's being open minded to other possibilities...

[trish]

I can also guarantee you that the day christians and other religions stop trying to actively limit civil liberties and impose their patently false beliefs like intelligent design on impressionable minds atheists will be a-ok with anyone worshipping whatever imaginary deity of their choosing in privateExactly right and nicely said.:claps

[Stavros]

Originally Posted by muh_muh http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/ca_serenity/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1103266#post1103266)I can also guarantee you that the day christians and other religions stop trying to actively limit civil liberties and impose their patently false beliefs like intelligent design on impressionable minds atheists will be a-ok with anyone worshipping whatever imaginary deity of their choosing in private

But that has nothing to do with the existence, or non-existence of God. It is muh-muh expressing concern at the political groups who target family planning, education, and so on, using a narrow interpretation of some aspect of organised religion -for example a passage in the Old Testament or the Qu'ran- in order to justify the policy.

And, as there are as many people who already believe in private -and always have- and are opposed to the same social policy proposals muh-muh objects to, it would be entirely reasonable to be 'a-ok' with their belief right now, instead of waiting for some golden day of revelation or liberation, when the angels will fold their wings and fly away, and politics will be taken away from the extremists. If it was 1963, would you have campaigned against Martin Luther King because of his Christian convictions?

Somehow I feel this thread is going round in circles.

[EvonRose]

You don't even know half of the realities of this world so how can you assume the supernatural stories are not a channel to describe a physical? have come to think, maybe stories in the bible were ways to describe actual events, or to describe actual leaders, or pharos that many considered gods, but they fear execution for speaking out so they put it in story or poetic form? Not everything comes down to magic or spirituality. I believe everything has a physical source.


History is a physical and scientific fact as well, and yet we don't know everything about it yet... Things are still being discovered...The bible itself has historical facts, you may not believe in the deities or teachings behind it but you believe the physical history behind it... The bible had described many events proven by science. To think that it is not a source to something true is a bit bias towards the none believe... I am not saying you don't believe bit just because you don't believe in deities or religion, you have to believe the scientifically proven events int he bible..

Immortal described back then is not how we would think now, from the bible to the greek mythologies there have been many immortal beings that still had a weakness. Back then immortal was a way to describe something or someone stronger than the average. In my opinion there is a possibility that the god in the bible was a way to describe mother nature. Think about it.


I get it, and i don't support the injustice either, I am talking about the possibility of the sources alone of a higher being used to described unexplained physical things... And what the actual word was originally for, not how people twist it for unjust power. Your digging way too deep in this, it won't make sense to when people like you bring politics in a supernatural theory. Separate things. I'm discussing history, not about your view on your political stance. i really don't care, if you got issues take it up with the government.

[EvonRose]

...and that's where you're entirely missing the point about athiesm.

Athiests don't think "just because I believe in somethings thats the actual truth". They simply doubt the existence of deities for logical and analytical reasons. There's nothing naive about that. On the contrary, I'd say it's being open minded to other possibilities...

You are like them, missed the point...

I am discussing about the facts of religion and putting my own theories behind it trying to explain it. These atheists are the ones bringing political arguments behind it. I am a liberal, I am for gay marriage and freedom of choice, and equality. But they are bringing up political view points like i give a flying fuck about it, that irritates me. Keep your politics to yourself... this was a discussion about spirituality. You are allowed to have a spirituality and a faith, that has nothing to do with christians impact on the laws at this point, its irrelevant...

Nicole Dupree and I started to discuss why or possible ways people use spirituality to describe unexplained physical objects, but here comes trish and muh muh, talking about gay marriage, and churches, and inequality, abortion etc.... Boring not interesting at all... I see where they are coming from however there will always be social injustice religion or not, just freshen up your history books. From china, to japan, to England, to the South Pacific.

Social injustice has been around from thousands of years, this included religions being persecuted by non believers. Religion cannot be a scapegoat to every social injustice, if people look back in history there are many events where religion brought community back together, or peace or for the fight of equality.

i don't think racism is religious based, or anti semitism, or sexism, or homophobia, people want to believe that is is but the conclusion i have made is its not,. going back to the nazi history, or even asian politics it is present in every background...

[traLika]

Somehow I feel this thread is going round in circles.


I concur! :deadhorse