Shemales are just men... don't take my word for it

[terminator2011]

An honest statement by the best looking tranny on the planet

Get a life "girls" and fact up to the fact of what she says makes a whole lotta sense!

http://ut1.xhamster.com/t/301/5_b_1013301.jpg (http://xhamster.com/movies/1013301/my_opininon_on_my_gender.html)

[amberskyi]

An honest statement by the best looking tranny on the planet

Get a life "girls" and fact up to the fact of what she says makes a whole lotta sense!

http://ut1.xhamster.com/t/301/5_b_1013301.jpg (http://xhamster.com/movies/1013301/my_opininon_on_my_gender.html)

so because ONE girls says it than it must be true!!!! ok well in that same vain..men arent nothing but walking atm's

[MacShreach]

That's one very young and very confused girl. I would not mind betting that most, if not all transsexual women have had the same doubts at some time. Her self analysis reveals that she thinks "she was born a man and that ls what she is" but at the same time that she "feels like a woman, acts like a woman" is " a woman inside" and "could never live as a masculine being." This is not exactly unusual; she is trying to feel her way forward, to discover whom she actually is.

Transsexuals present some of the most compex psychological questions that we have to consider, and it is completely normal for transitioning women to question themselves. Furthermore, Ellie, the girl in the clip, lives in a very remote part of Scotland where her support network is extremely limited, she has no peers and her family has thrown her out. These factors all contribute to her mental state.

I'm sorry, but the OP will have to do some research on this matter. To come on the board with what, a whole ten posts behind him, and use the statement of one very young girl who is clearly, because of this and other recent statements she has made, in deep emotional and psychological crisis to attack transsexual women, is low, prejudiced and hateful. My advice to the OP is to take his preconceptions away with him and go and learn something before he comes back.

As a start, Google "Harry Benjamin."

[MacShreach]

so because ONE girls says it than it must be true!!!! ok well in that same vain..men arent nothing but walking atm's

We're not all walking wallets, but some of us are idiots!:)

[SammiValentine]

She is entitled to her opnion like we all are :)

My opinion is termintor 2011 = bitchboy5000 = subwaycity2000 = woodywoodsac = tania harvey = bla bla bla bla and this an attempt to get a response over a sensitive subject.

ZzZzZzzz

[Prospero]

I suspect you're right Sammi

[Jericho]

so because ONE girls says it than it must be true!!!!

If that's all it takes, everyone called Jericho has a 12 inch cock and can go for hours...Line up girls! :hide-1:

[MdR Dave]

I really hope Ellie snaps out of it soon. What a waste she will be.

[dafame]

Really don't see anything wrong with what she said. What is there to snap out of? She said she's fine never being a "real" woman. She said that when girls get vaginas they are "fake" vaginas. Don't disagree with anything that she said because she was stating fact.

She said she knows you can be a girl born in a mans body but hormones although they change your outer appearance and make you look more the way that you feel, they don't change the fact that you were "BORN IN A MANS BODY".

Sounds to me that she's just content with being a transsexual and doesn't need to give herself the "illusion" that she's anything other than that.

While you guys are knocking her (totally understand fellas as we've been conditioned to believe that's what we're supposed to do), I think she's one of the unconfused ones.

[Tiffany Starr]

Kinda hard to take that seriously when i'm trans and have and F on my license. I'm pretty sure they only put the F on a females license. I don't need anyone telling me who I am, I am a woman regardless of others opinions. If many doctors, psychiatrists, and my state see's me as a woman, then who is anyone else to tell me otherwise?

[mealticket]

I think she is referring more to the genetic make up of her body...it makes sense but it is her opinion and I am sure others will be against it and others for it...

[nonnonnon]

if you're dumb like me, you can click the photo for the video lol!

[MdR Dave]

Really don't see anything wrong with what she said. What is there to snap out of?

I wasn't talking about this video- she's apparently having s tough go, is in a lot of pain (some of it apparently self inflicted) and is often near incoherent.

She's not"fine".

[dafame]

Kinda hard to take that seriously when i'm trans and have and F on my license. I'm pretty sure they only put the F on a females license. I don't need anyone telling me who I am, I am a woman regardless of others opinions. If many doctors, psychiatrists, and my state see's me as a woman, then who is anyone else to tell me otherwise?

Well the answer that some might give is GOD but being that I'm not a believer I'll say perhaps the doctor that birthed you.

Look this isn't a knock and I say what's most important is how you feel about yourself. But there is a such thing as fact and it really can't be disputed. Like the girl said no matter how many hormones you take you can't change your bone structure for instance. Not without surgically doing so where surgery allows. I could have a surgen give me a big round nose but that doesn't then constitute me "clown" and no longer human.

Point is why do you girls feel the need to insist that you're woman and no different from a genetic female? Why do you guys insist on validating this when none of you would be here if there wasn't anything that separated them from genetic females?

Point is what's wrong with being a "transsexual"? I think that's what the girl in the video was saying.

[qwerty94]

if you're dumb like me, you can click the photo for the video lol!


hahaha... i was going to comment if anyone had the link. -___-




hmm... I didn't really see anything wrong or offensive with the video. I mean, she thinks what she wants, just as I think what I want. I do believe that if she stays in that mindset, she probably wont be happy for a long time. That's on her. I accept myself as a woman, people see me as a woman at home, at work, walking down the street, etc.

[Merkurie]

She is entitled to her own opinion. And while it is blunt I would not say she is "attacking" anyone.

What bothers me is the whole concept of transexuals being men. Or having been born men. Nobody is born a man. People become men or women as you grow through childhood, but you are not born a man or a woman. People are born male or female (XY, XX, XXY, XYY). As they grow they let you know if they are boys or girls, hetero bi or homo sexual etc.

What constitutes a man (or woman) is highly dependent on the culture you live in, how you live your life and how others interact with you, and a bunch of other factors. On most any count you can imagine transwomen are not men. The skin you are in makes you male or female (or intersexed) but that alone does not make a man or a woman.

Putting people into two rigid gender groups is a western thing rooted in the Abrahamic religions and not the case in a number of cultures or eras. It is fundamentally ignorant and it is ultimately enforced by violence.

[dafame]

hahaha... i was going to comment if anyone had the link. -___-




hmm... I didn't really see anything wrong or offensive with the video. I mean, she thinks what she wants, just as I think what I want. I do believe that if she stays in that mindset, she probably wont be happy for a long time. That's on her. I accept myself as a woman, people see me as a woman at home, at work, walking down the street, etc.

That's good Qwerty. You see yourself as a woman and people see you as a woman when you walk down the street. I'm pretty sure that people see her as a woman when she walks down the street as well.

I just think that you guys are missing the point. I didn't see anything that would make me say "she's unhappy", and I know transsexuals who accept the same reality that she was talking and they don't appear to be unhappy either.

Are you suggesting that's what it takes for a transsexual to be happy? To completely convince themselves that they are absolutely no different then any other woman who has a mentral cycle each month?

If it makes you happy to tell yourself this I don't see anything wrong with it if that's where your happyness comes from. But I think it's entirely different to suggest that this girl will be unhappy unless she starts thinking the same way.

If there is one thing that I dislike about transsexuals its this notion. It's the fact that there are many transsexuals who take this notion and use it to seperate themselves from the rest of the gay community (in there own minds). It's the reason that many transsexuals don't like men who like transsexuals because that very fact reminds them that they are infact transsexuals and not genetic women who bleed once a month.

Again I'll ask, what is so terrible about being a transsexual? What's so terrible about being what you are and were meant to be? I think that if you were meant to be genetic women then you would have been born that way, so why is it so difficult to celebrate the beauty of what you were meant to be?

[LibertyHarkness]

me i see myself as a transgendered woman ...but i think each person has a different mental approach to it and also a level of acceptance , she has openly admitted manytimes that she struggles with the TS thing .but she is very young and as some have had said no support ..

Myself i was a later transitioner, i have full support of my entire family, no issues etc so i have been lucky and only had to get my head round the intial instance..then its been plain sailing .. so i have never had to deal with being alone, no family help,love etc so that entire concept is alien to me .

Personally i think to many people look to deep into it rather than just accept it is what is ...and not be worried about labels ...

All that matters is your happy at the end of day , and interms of actual gender identity on a personal level sure people can state fact etc .. but in reality its your legal document that entitles you to live in the gender ... So if your passport is female then you will have female privelages, if your male you have male privelages `and are protected by the law accordingly..

The way i see it is this, a body is just a shell, vehicle like lego that can be adapted.ajusted ... your brain cant .... so you have a female brain and cant alter that but you can alter your body to match your brain .

The whole neovagina/fake vagina crap that many people blast about not having babies etc, not having a womb so there for will never make you a real woman is abit moot .. as what about the hundred of thousands of women that cant have babies, have no womb etc , are they men then ?

The only flaw i see with a neovagina is the self lubricatiion aspect that is not quite right ..but otherwise it does the same thing..

But of course everyone is entitled to their views ...its an interesting subject matter and intriguing to see how different girls deal with their transtioning .

[dafame]

What bothers me is the whole concept of transexuals being men. Or having been born men. Nobody is born a man. People become men or women as you grow through childhood, but you are not born a man or a woman. People are born male or female (XY, XX, XXY, XYY). As they grow they let you know if they are boys or girls, hetero bi or homo sexual etc.

Why do people insist on being so deep in their defense of this shit..lol.. Male vs Female is what we're talking about bruh. No need to be so technical because again you're reinforcing this false belief in these girls which is by far the worse part about them. I wish people would stop doing that but I realize also that just as many of them need that false sense of identity, so do many of us men in dealing with them.

Either end you're on its a complicated situation but it would be a lot simpler if people learned to love themselves for who they are rather than what they've managed to convince themselves they are or convinced themselves that the person they love or find an attraction to is.

[robertlouis]

me i see myself as a transgendered woman ...but i think each person has a different mental approach to it and also a level of acceptance , she has openly admitted manytimes that she struggles with the TS thing .but she is very young and as some have had said no support ..

Myself i was a later transitioner, i have full support of my entire family, no issues etc so i have been lucky and only had to get my head round the intial instance..then its been plain sailing .. so i have never had to deal with being alone, no family help,love etc so that entire concept is alien to me .

Personally i think to many people look to deep into it rather than just accept it is what is ...and not be worried about labels ...

All that matters is your happy at the end of day , and interms of actual gender identity on a personal level sure people can state fact etc .. but in reality its your legal document that entitles you to live in the gender ... So if your passport is female then you will have female privelages, if your male you have male privelages `and are protected by the law accordingly..

The way i see it is this, a body is just a shell, vehicle like lego that can be adapted.ajusted ... your brain cant .... so you have a female brain and cant alter that but you can alter your body to match your brain .

The whole neovagina/fake vagina crap that many people blast about not having babies etc, not having a womb so there for will never make you a real woman is abit moot .. as what about the hundred of thousands of women that cant have babies, have no womb etc , are they men then ?

The only flaw i see with a neovagina is the self lubricatiion aspect that is not quite right ..but otherwise it does the same thing..

But of course everyone is entitled to their views ...its an interesting subject matter and intriguing to see how different girls deal with their transtioning .

:iagree::iagree::iagree: On the money as always, Liberty. Watching the vid and in particular listening to Ellery my main point is concern for her. She's always been fragile and it seems to be getting worse. I come from the same part of the world as she does and any departure from dour presbyterian norms there will always be viewed with suspicion, distrust, fear and hate. It's a hellish place to be different, so I really feel for her. I hope she can get out before it's too late.

[slingblade]

I dont care what she considers herself shes hot and id fuck the shit out of her!!!!!!!!!

[MacShreach]

If there is one thing that I dislike about transsexuals its this notion. It's the fact that there are many transsexuals who take this notion and use it to seperate themselves from the rest of the gay community

I don't think we need to think too hard to see where you're coming from.

Out of interest, how do you regard women with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?

[RallyCola]

i just wanna shove my cock in her mouth to shut her up...but wait...i don't want a "mon" sucking my dick...decisions, decisions???

[Merkurie]

Why do people insist on being so deep in their defense of this shit..lol.. Male vs Female is what we're talking about bruh. No need to be so technical because again you're reinforcing this false belief in these girls which is by far the worse part about them. I wish people would stop doing that but I realize also that just as many of them need that false sense of identity, so do many of us men in dealing with them.

Either end you're on its a complicated situation but it would be a lot simpler if people learned to love themselves for who they are rather than what they've managed to convince themselves they are or convinced themselves that the person they love or find an attraction to is.


So keep it simple and stupid?

[MacShreach]

So keep it simple and stupid?

Maybe, but he just sounds like a homosexual man who hates transsexuals.:shrug

[dafame]

I don't think we need to think too hard to see where you're coming from.

Out of interest, how do you regard women with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?

Yeah I think I made it clear as day where I'm coming from but I'll clarify the point that you highlighted incase there are some that don't catch on as quickly as you and I do.

You and I my friend do not consider ourselves gay and thus not a part of the gay community. We are attracted to feminity as apposed to masculinity and this fact excludes us of any mention of the "g-word". We don't participate in any gay community functions "balls or pride festivals" and may or may not have a gay friend but chances are don't particularly hang out with gay men simply because there's not a common bond.

I think that what may seperate us though is the fact that I am well aware of the fact that these girls were born male and in most cases have penises. I am also aware of the fact that I wouldn't be on this board if the fact that they have or had penises wasn't a determining factor in why I'm attracted to them.

In others words I don't play games with myself about what motivates me in order to somehow protect what I deam as my masculinity. I know who I am and love being me and there isn't anything that can make me feel like less of a man. Even dating a girl who has a penis that I know isn't prostetic because SHE WAS BORN WITH IT.

Does that pretty much some up where you thought I was coming from bruh?

As far as how I feel about women with Androgen insensitivity syndrome: "Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is caused by various genetic defects on the X chromosome that make the body unable to respond to the hormones responsible for the male appearance. Persons with incomplete AIS may have both male and female physical characteristics. Many have partial closing of the outer vaginal lips, an enlarged clitoris, and a short vagina."

So to answer your question I feel for them the way I would a person with any other genetic disorder. It's extremelly rare however and doesn't really apply to what we're talking about because I highly doubt that there's a transsexual that either of us have met that suffers from this disorder and is even a less likely possibility that anyone on this board was diagnosed with this at birth to elaborate on it.

[Silcc69]

hahaha... i was going to comment if anyone had the link. -___-




hmm... I didn't really see anything wrong or offensive with the video. I mean, she thinks what she wants, just as I think what I want. I do believe that if she stays in that mindset, she probably wont be happy for a long time. That's on her. I accept myself as a woman, people see me as a woman at home, at work, walking down the street, etc.

And you're one fine woman.

[dafame]

So keep it simple and stupid?

Again Merkurie I'm not mad at you bruh. I completely understand why you're saying the things you said. It doesn't make them valid points but we all have to choose which side we stand on when it comes to a particular issue. Especially one as devicive as this one. It's just unfortunate that many people just want to earn some to of applause line from the girls instead of standing on fact.

It baffles me why this is something so hard for people to accept when I think that being transgendered is a beautiful thing.

[MacShreach]

Yeah I think I made it clear as day where I'm coming from but I'll clarify the point that you highlighted incase there are some that don't catch on as quickly as you and I do.

You and I my friend do not consider ourselves gay and thus not a part of the gay community. We are attracted to feminity as apposed to masculinity and this fact excludes us of any mention of the "g-word". We don't participate in any gay community functions "balls or pride festivals" and may or may not have a gay friend but chances are don't particularly hang out with gay men simply because there's not a common bond.

I think that what may seperate us though is the fact that I am well aware of the fact that these girls were born male and in most cases have penises. I am also aware of the fact that I wouldn't be on this board if the fact that they have or had penises wasn't a determining factor in why I'm attracted to them.

In others words I don't play games with myself about what motivates me in order to somehow protect what I deam as my masculinity. I know who I am and love being me and there isn't anything that can make me feel like less of a man. Even dating a girl who has a penis that I know isn't prostetic because SHE WAS BORN WITH IT.

Does that pretty much some up where you thought I was coming from bruh?

As far as how I feel about women with Androgen insensitivity syndrome: "Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is caused by various genetic defects on the X chromosome that make the body unable to respond to the hormones responsible for the male appearance. Persons with incomplete AIS may have both male and female physical characteristics. Many have partial closing of the outer vaginal lips, an enlarged clitoris, and a short vagina."

So to answer your question I feel for them the way I would a person with any other genetic disorder. It's extremelly rare however and doesn't really apply to what we're talking about because I highly doubt that there's a transsexual that either of us have met that suffers from this disorder and is even a less likely possibility that anyone on this board was diagnosed with this at birth to elaborate on it.

Well, in the first place, I'm not your friend, or your 'bruh.' If you are suggesting that I don't know that an MTF transsexual was born with a penis, then you are similarly mistaken.

I'm very happy for you, in that you are so proud of being a man. Are you so proud of that that you deny in others the right not to be proud of it, indeed, not to see themselves as men at all? Perhaps you are rather more insecure in your masculinity than you might like us to believe.

I'm also happy that I provoked you to do some internet reading and hoopefully to expand your knowledge a little. However, you have not really answered my question: AIS women have XY chromosomes, no ovaries, no uterus and no chance of ever having children. Frequently they have testicles, often remaining inside the abdominal cavity, and may have a vestigial penis, depending on the severity of the condition. Similarly they develop secondary female characteristics and their bodies do not masculinise, because they synthesise a natural version of a t-blocker. Now, do you consider them to be men or women? Simple enough, I'd have thought.

[trish]

It has been claimed there’s nothing wrong with being what we were meant to be. But who meant me to be what I am? God? That’s a defunct idea. The Universe? Like the universe designed the things within it to serve a function and have a meaning. Biology? Chance? At conception my mother contributed an X chromosome and my father a Y. Did Chance “want” me to be a male, or was it just chance that I’m genetically male? Did Nature mean me to be a man in addition to being male? Does society? Is there really nothing at all wrong with being what society means you to be? So because I'm genetically male, does society mean[] me to be, want[] me to be a man? To function within the norms and customs as a man? I know there’s a very vocal segment of narrow minded bigots who do? Fuck them. And fuck their self-appointed spokespersons on this board. Can we not be self-determined and take responsibility for ourselves? Can we not be what we mean ourselves to be? Can we not please expect the respect that self-determination requires?

[MacShreach]

It has been claimed there’s nothing wrong with being what we were meant to be. But who meant me to be what I am? God? That’s a defunct idea. The Universe? Like the universe designed the things within it to serve a function and have a meaning. Biology? Chance? At conception my mother contributed an X chromosome and my father a Y. Did Chance “want” me to be a male, or was it just chance that I’m genetically male? Did Nature mean me to be a man in addition to being male? Does society? Is there really nothing at all wrong with being what society means you to be? So because I'm genetically male, does society means me to be, wants me to be a man? To function within the norms and customs as a man? I know there’s a very vocal segment of narrow minded bigots who do? Fuck them. And fuck their self-appointed spokespersons on this board. Can we not be self-determined and take responsibility for ourselves? Can we not be what we mean ourselves to be? Can we not please expect the respect that self-determination requires?
:Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown:

[dafame]

Maybe, but he just sounds like a homosexual man who hates transsexuals.:shrug

That's the pretty typical response MacShreach. But ask yourself why do you feel the need to reach so far in their defense when they don't need defending? I'm sure there are several girls who will take offense to some of the things I've said simply because it goes against the "illusion" and that's just something you don't do. But why would anything I said upset you? Especially when I didn't say anything that should offend or piss of anyone (most notably the parts about how I love transsexuals and I think it's a great thing in itself--incase you missed these parts).

Come on people lighten up. If you want to convince yourselves that they are woman no different then your mother then by all means do that if it helps you get through the day.

Me myself I prefer to live in reality and see there transsexuality as a virtue instead of something that is to be frowned upon. Now who sounds more like the person who hates transsexuals? Me, a person who blinds himself totally from the true self of the person he's dealing with. Just something to think about but I'm not expecting anything other than attacks to come from you at this point so fire away.

[amberskyi]

Why do people insist on being so deep in their defense of this shit..lol.. Male vs Female is what we're talking about bruh. No need to be so technical because again you're reinforcing this false belief in these girls which is by far the worse part about them. I wish people would stop doing that but I realize also that just as many of them need that false sense of identity, so do many of us men in dealing with them.

Either end you're on its a complicated situation but it would be a lot simpler if people learned to love themselves for who they are rather than what they've managed to convince themselves they are or convinced themselves that the person they love or find an attraction to is.

the same we "these people" are being so deeply defensive is the same way your being so deeply aggressive about your point of view.
the SCIENTIFIC answer to this question is while we are not biological woman we arent biological men either.
hormones do alot more than just give us boobs and pretty skin.it actually changes alot of ways very crucial internal organs function and look.over time our bodies and organs strive to function as much as a females as possible.tgirls have different sized brains than men (even before hormones),hearts functions differently,prostate shrinks,bladder shrinks,hips end up rotating forward,change in eyes shape,bone density changes,certain sweat glands become in active, and etc
so yes your right we arent biological women but we arent men either..when was the last time you got a mammogram..something you as a man will never really have to worry about but already my doctor does breast exams on me and the pleasure that is a mammogram lies waiting in my future...

[MacShreach]

I'm not expecting anything other than attacks to come from you at this point so fire away.

Oh, no, I'd just like to hear your answer to the question I posed.

[runningdownthatdream]

It has been claimed there’s nothing wrong with being what we were meant to be. But who meant me to be what I am? God? That’s a defunct idea. The Universe? Like the universe designed the things within it to serve a function and have a meaning. Biology? Chance? At conception my mother contributed an X chromosome and my father a Y. Did Chance “want” me to be a male, or was it just chance that I’m genetically male? Did Nature mean me to be a man in addition to being male? Does society? Is there really nothing at all wrong with being what society means you to be? So because I'm genetically male, does society mean[] me to be, want[] me to be a man? To function within the norms and customs as a man? I know there’s a very vocal segment of narrow minded bigots who do? Fuck them. And fuck their self-appointed spokespersons on this board. Can we not be self-determined and take responsibility for ourselves? Can we not be what we mean ourselves to be? Can we not please expect the respect that self-determination requires?

Well now you're going to cause some people's heads to explode.......can't imagine what category they're going to try and plug you into! Thanks for being lucid.

I wonder if your number one fan will feel the need to rebut anything you wrote.......those 1 percenters are quite the rebels y'know ;)

[trish]

Thanks for the affirmative nod, runningdownthatdream...and you too MacShreach, long time no see. ;)

[MacShreach]

Thanks for the affirmative nod, runningdownthatdream...and you too MacShreach, long time no see. ;)
Here's looking at you too, Trish.:)

[dafame]

Well, in the first place, I'm not your friend, or your 'bruh.' If you are suggesting that I don't know that an MTF transsexual was born with a penis, then you are similarly mistaken.

I'm very happy for you, in that you are so proud of being a man. Are you so proud of that that you deny in others the right not to be proud of it, indeed, not to see themselves as men at all? Perhaps you are rather more insecure in your masculinity than you might like us to believe.

I'm also happy that I provoked you to do some internet reading and hoopefully to expand your knowledge a little. However, you have not really answered my question: AIS women have XY chromosomes, no ovaries, no uterus and no chance of ever having children. Frequently they have testicles, often remaining inside the abdominal cavity, and may have a vestigial penis, depending on the severity of the condition. Similarly they develop secondary female characteristics and their bodies do not masculinise, because they synthesise a natural version of a t-blocker. Now, do you consider them to be men or women? Simple enough, I'd have thought.

Happy for me that I'm proud of being a man? That was just too weird to even respond to. On a serious note though yeah I found that facinating. When I typed that in and got the definition of it I was like "ah this is what it must mean to be hermaphordite". Enlightning, and yes I owe you for that but again bruh it doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Plus as we both know I just did some research on it now and don't know enough about the condition to have an opinion on it other than the one I just gave you. But again I'm missing your point??

[MacShreach]

But again I'm missing your point??

Indeed. Do you consider women with AIS to be men or women?

[MrsKellyPierce]

I worry about Ellery sometimes, just saying.

She self medicates a lot..hasn't really been to a gender identity specialist.

So as beautiful as she is, she hasn't exactly taken time to understand whats going on inside of her.

[runningdownthatdream]

That's the pretty typical response MacShreach. But ask yourself why do you feel the need to reach so far in their defense when they don't need defending? I'm sure there are several girls who will take offense to some of the things I've said simply because it goes against the "illusion" and that's just something you don't do. But why would anything I said upset you? Especially when I didn't say anything that should offend or piss of anyone (most notably the parts about how I love transsexuals and I think it's a great thing in itself--incase you missed these parts).

Come on people lighten up. If you want to convince yourselves that they are woman no different then your mother then by all means do that if it helps you get through the day.

Me myself I prefer to live in reality and see there transsexuality as a virtue instead of something that is to be frowned upon. Now who sounds more like the person who hates transsexuals? Me, a person who blinds himself totally from the true self of the person he's dealing with. Just something to think about but I'm not expecting anything other than attacks to come from you at this point so fire away.

Do yourself a favour: read Trish's post.....over.....and over........it may eventually sink in.

[SammiValentine]

understanding gender is a really big headfuck, why the op started this fishing trip... :O

[dafame]

Do yourself a favour: read Trish's post.....over.....and over........it may eventually sink in.

I read it. It was a great post but didn't apply to me. I agree with much of what she said.

[Kayden Harley]

I don't necessarily agree with EVERYTHING in that video, but I appreciate her approach. She repeats that this is HER opinion, and I have to respect that.

As many have already sain on this thread, we're all entitled to our opinions.

[giovanni_hotel]

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

[SammiValentine]

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.



:iagree:

[needsum]

not to change the subject, but Damn Sammi, I don't need a bucket, just 2 handfuls will do. you look AMAZING in your avatar pic.... yummy!

[SammiValentine]

not to change the subject, but Damn Sammi, I don't need a bucket, just 2 handfuls will do. you look AMAZING in your avatar pic.... yummy!

aaw thanks - I had got dolled up for a "dinner kinda date booking thing" and liverpool had just beat manchester utd so that helped me look happy xxx

[needsum]

well if you could see me right how you'd know I was happy too.... ;) vaVOOM!!

[MacShreach]

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

Thoughtful post, Giovanni. I think the problem arises from a fundamental moral absolutism--that is to say that everything is either 'yes' or 'no', 'black' or 'white' 'male' female' etc. I think this comes from the absolutism implicit in the monotheistic religious culture that even today, for better or worse, informs our society. People are predisposed towards absolutist answers; the trouble is that people are human, and thus a species of living thing, and natural science tells us that within each species there is variation. Everything is a continuum, not an on/off switch. So people's sense of gender identity is really varied, just like their sense of orientation. One of the nice things about this board is you really get to see a lot of examples of that both from the men and the women.

It really can't come as a surprise that someone who does not have a standard alpha-male sense of gender will spend a lot of time wondering what the hell is going on, when they live in a society that preaches an absolutist viewpoint. At the end of the day though, if that person is happier and more fulfilled understanding that whatever she was handed at birth, she's a woman, then that's what she is, just as much as if she decides that she's not a woman or a man but somewhere in between. This is all quite natural, and the reason there is a Kinsey scale for sexuality, and a Benjamin scale for gender identification. (Yes I know about Blanchard/Bailey, but that work has been completely shot to bits in the scientific literature and I won't waste time on it here.)

Did you know, BTW, that the ancient Persians had at least six genders that were accepted within their ideology? And they were not the only culture to be much more relaxed about this sort of thing.

[muh_muh]

i dont see anything fundamentally incorrect with what she says
except maybe that given the evidence using a binary scale for measuring gender and sex is pretty ridiculous

[SammiValentine]

i dont see anything fundamentally incorrect with what she says
except maybe that given the evidence using a binary scale for measuring gender and sex is pretty ridiculous

Well yea and there is an anatomical spectrum that proves how stupid the initial binary concept is as it does not even take these into acccount before even considerng the gender spectrum...

I guess we/society prevents ourselves from ever changing.

Wasnt there a swedish family in the news a year or two ago, a baby born a certain biological sex but the parents were refusing to give a gender? So the child would decide or something similar :) caused a huge outcry , maybe it was something else ,,

[robertlouis]

Well yea and there is an anatomical spectrum that proves how stupid the initial binary concept is as it does not even take these into acccount before even considerng the gender spectrum...

I guess we/society prevents ourselves from ever changing.

Wasnt there a swedish family in the news a year or two ago, a baby born a certain biological sex but the parents were refusing to give a gender? So the child would decide or something similar :) caused a huge outcry , maybe it was something else ,,

And can we all please remember that this thread started with misappropriation, however well-intended, of a youtube vid by a confused and frightened young girl who needs help? Poor kid.

[dafame]

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

I'll let this be the last of my statements being that I understand that there aren't any type of response that will be different then the ones that I've received thus far. As far as the men are concerned as mentioned before I understand where you're coming from. We've all been conditioned to believe that all of the girls think this way and thus our feeling and opinions have to validate these feelings.

On your first point that I highlighted I'm in agreement with you. I was in a long term relationship with a transgendered woman many years ago and she was beautiful. I considered her a woman and at times would forget that she was transgendered to a degree. I would catch myself in amazement like "oh yeah she is a transsexual" when she would do certain things that only transsexuals do "like cutting up perfectly good shorts to make some damn tuck panties...lol". But I doubt seriously that I would have felt that way about her at the time if she didn't convince me she was a woman in the way that she looked and acted.

But the problem with the notion you put out there is that it doesn't ring true with the people of this HA community. I have seen countless post of a picture on this site of someone who might just be starting out and clearly looks like a man in a wig. That is precisely how they are treated on this board. If you learned tomorrow that Arnold Schwarzenegger has always felt as though he was a woman I highly doubt there will be many people on this board or elsewhere that will say "If in the deeper psychological recesses of his mind, he KNOW'S he's a woman, you can't say his birth sex trumps all."

His feeling that way all his life may very well constitute that he is infact a woman but I doubt that people would start to treat him as such tomorrow if at all. This is really a crazy way of making the larger point that of course your birth sex matters. There are things that a naturally born woman can do that a transsexual simply can't and consequently there are things that a transsexual can do that a naturally born woman can't. So how can one say that they are exactly the same? But the even larger point that I was trying to make that people seem to miss or just really don't care to hear, is why would you want to say they're exactly the same thing when being a transsexual is GREAT!

But I understand that's something that bothers people so I'll move on. The next point you made: "I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional."

I can't speak for anyone else and am not the spokeman for trollers. I've been an individual trolling and will remain that way. With that said, the reason I'm so adamant about that point is because many (not all and I've made that point already) of them are.

Here's why I feel that way. After dating my ex who happened to be transgendered it was some years before I even thought about transsexuals. She was my exposure to transsexuals. Without going into the long story of how we met I'll just say that it was a long maturation process that brought us together that went from us dating for a while without me know a thing, to me learning the truth of her situation, leaving her alone, and then coming back. Through the experience of our relationship I gain an appreciation for transsexuals.

We were together nearly 3yrs and when our relationship ended transsexuals were the last thing on my mind. But after some years I did eventually start to date transsexuals again and what I learned is that they are very different then genetic women in one way in particular. How the go about choosing men.

Admittedly I haven't dated a lot of transsexaul woman so my sample may be small but this is based off of things that I heard from my ex's friends while we were together as well. See as soon as many of these girls found out about my previous relationship they didn't really want anything to do with me. I was a tranny chaser because I had been with a transsexual before and I couldn't give them the feeling that they were "turning me out" and that I would never have anything to do with a transsexual in any other circumstance but because it was them was the only reason I was there. Once they new about my previous relationship all of that went out the window.

Now as the years go by (and I know many of you have seen the posts as well about why the girls won't date a guy that's been with transsexuals), I've learned that not all women think this way.

It is self delusional to think in these terms. To think that any man that would be with you even if you're the first transsexual he's been with is any different then a man that has been with a transsexaul previous has something to do with you is self delusional to me.

I think it's also self delusional to consider yourself a woman through and through. No different in any way than any other woman, yet expect a man to be completely secure about you and to have to know that he isn't ashamed of you in any way. That if his friends or family knew of your situation that he would be fine with it because that what it takes to love you.

I in no way am suggesting that a man should hide his woman. Infact I can tell you that if I were to ever be in a relationship with a transsexaul again I would prefer that my friends and family knew simply because I don't like the pressure associated with trying to hide something like that. But for a woman to expect me to accept her "transsexuality" but can't accept that reality herself, to me is self delusional.

I don't know how anything that I've said makes me a bigot or "a homosexual that hates transsexuals" as someone posted earlier. I just have a different view point on what my expectations are of a girl and what it is that I appreciate about them. I'll say it again, I don't need them to be women no different then my cousins, I need them to be who and what they are. This is the appreciation that I have for them and if that doesn't fit into your box of how a man should view a transsexual then that's I guess where I've earned my label. Not a problem with me at all.

So with that said I'll take my fish and go feed the people.

[trish]

...But I understand that's something that bothers people so I'll move on. The next point you made: "I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional."
...
I think it's also self delusional to consider yourself a woman through and through. No different in any way than any other woman, yet expect a man to be completely secure about you and to have to know that he isn't ashamed of you in any way. That if his friends or family knew of your situation that he would be fine with it because that what it takes to love you.
Are you being self-delusional when you call yourself a man? Why not? Because you’re sportin’ a Y chromosome? Does that mean you’re a man through and through? How about that faggot clicking on those forbidden threads and jerking off to pics of dudes in wigs? He’s sportin’ a Y too. Is he a man? I mean through and through? What does that mean? Through and through? Couldn’t it be the case that you aren’t a man all the way through? Let’s go at this from the other direction. Is your transgender ex a man through and through? She too is toting a Y. But surely you couldn’t have had a romantic liaison with someone who was a man through and through. So I’m guessing your answer is that, “No, she isn’t a man through and through.” But judging from your post, it would be your opinion that she’s not a woman through and through either. So if through-and-thoughness is not genetically determined, how do you know you’re a man through and through? Perhaps you would admit you’re not? Perhaps you know just to what extent you’re a man and to what extent you aren’t. On most occasions do you present yourself as a man? All occasions? Do you want women to appreciate you sexually as a man? Would you reject a woman who didn’t think of you as man? I would reject a man who didn’t think of me as a woman. Is my attitude symmetric to yours? I don’t expect my lovers to think of me as a woman through and through...I’m not sure what that means exactly. But I do expect them to think of me as a woman to about the same extent and in the same way that think of them as men.

[dafame]

Are you being self-delusional when you call yourself a man? Why not? Because you’re sportin’ a Y chromosome? Does that mean you’re a man through and through? How about that faggot clicking on those forbidden threads and jerking off to pics of dudes in wigs? He’s sportin’ a Y too. Is he a man? I mean through and through? What does that mean? Through and through? Couldn’t it be the case that you aren’t a man all the way through? Let’s go at this from the other direction. Is your transgender ex a man through and through? She too is toting a Y. But surely you couldn’t have had a romantic liaison with someone who was a man through and through. So I’m guessing your answer is that, “No, she wasn’t a man through and through.” But judging from your post, it would be your opinion that she’s not a woman through and through either. So if through-and-thoughness is not genetically determined, how do you know you’re a man through and through? Perhaps you would admit you’re not? Perhaps you know just to what extent you’re a man and to what extent you aren’t. On most occasions do you present yourself as a man? All occasions? Do you want women to appreciate you sexually as a man? Would you reject a woman who didn’t think of you as man? I would reject a man who didn’t think of me as a woman. Is my attitude symmetric to yours? I don’t expect my lovers to think of me as a woman through and through...I’m not sure what that means exactly. But I do expect them to think of me as a woman to the about the same extent and in the same way that think of them as men.

It's good that someone actually took the time to read what I wrote and have some understanding of it without just jumping on the band wagon. Great points once again I'll touch on a couple. No my ex wasn't a man through and through although she was born male the way that I was. But through how she identified with herself she wasn't male through and through. She didn't consider herself male through and through nor did I.

Of course the use of hormones and various cosmetic adjustments helped her with how she identified with herself and helped me as well to see her the way she saw herself and the way I wanted to. She was beautiful and not only that she was the sweetest person I've ever met. Like I said previously, I'd forget at times that she was even transgendered. But with that said I can tell you that (and this is why I said someone actually took the time to understand the post) your assessment of what I said was correct. I do not see her as a woman through and through.

While we're on the subject of through and through let me clarify what I ment by that. Perhaps it wasn't the best choice of words and seems to have caused more confusion in you then is necessary for you to see the larger and perhaps important points. By through and through I simply was trying to establish that there is infact a difference between a transgendered woman and a woman that was born a woman. The same way that there's a difference between Chaz Bono and me, and some of it does just simply come down to those Y's and X's you were talking about.

As far as the homosexual (I don't use the other word) you were talking about that's mastubating to pictures of men in wigs. This doesn't really come down as much to behavior for me as it does the chromosomes. Regardless to what a man does or whether he's gay or straight is beside the point. A gay man who dates other gay men is no less of a man to me then any heterosexual man that bang every chick he meets. That's not what defines manhood in my opinion and it definitely doesn't change a person biological makeup.

So to answer you question, yes I would treat you as a woman. Just like any other woman. But because I see you and respect you in a certain way. Because I care for you and your feeling and truly believe that you were born in the wrong body doesn't mean that I can simply disregard as fact that you "WERE BORN IN THE WRONG BODY".

It doesn't mean that I can have the illusion that we can one day have biological children together, but by virtue of you it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be able to see you as being a great mother to children we could adopt.

It doesn't mean that I'd expect that there'd be a time each month that love making would be on shut down and you might have mood swings due to natural hormonal changes taking place in your body, but it does mean that I would understand that through what you need to do in order to keep you body in tune with how you feel that there may be times when "like a genetic woman" your hormones may give you the same type of mood swings.

And when infact we are making love it doesn't mean that I'd expect you to hide the part of you that speaks against the view you have of yourself or in your particular case I wouldn't expect you to feel the need to try to conceal the fact that what you have wasn't given to you at birth, but rather appreciate the fact that it is a rarity in either case (penis or vagina) to be making love to someone that you actually love.

So I'll say it again. The appreciation I have for you doesn't have anything to do with you convincing me that you're a woman no different than a woman born with a vagina. Instead I appreciate you're transsexuality.

[runningdownthatdream]

It's good that someone actually took the time to read what I wrote and have some understanding of it without just jumping on the band wagon. Great points once again I'll touch on a couple. No my ex wasn't a man through and through although she was born male the way that I was. But through how she identified with herself she wasn't male through and through. She didn't consider herself male through and through nor did I.


....sounds like you don't even have a definition for being male 'through and through'......at least not one that could be used to successfully counter Trish. I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things - not your fault since that's what we are taught and what's expected by society in general - while she is proposing that we can choose to define ourselves and who we are. But if you believe in God you believe everything is out of your control.....

[dafame]

....sounds like you don't even have a definition for being male 'through and through'......at least not one that could be used to successfully counter Trish. I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things - not your fault since that's what we are taught and what's expected by society in general - while she is proposing that we can choose to define ourselves and who we are. But if you believe in God you believe everything is out of your control.....

Come on guys. I don't mind being attacked but at the very least I ask that you read what I've said before doing so. This statement here shows that either you didn't read anything I said or you just picked through to the points you chose and used the to throw out the red meat to a waiting audience.

My beliefs don't have anything to do with what I was taught. They have to do with my own personal experiences and my some what understanding of biology.

This dialog is good but you gotta read what I'm saying if we're going to continue it.

No I get what you're saying about Trish's post and she was talking about stuff that didn't apply to me or my feeling towards transsexuals. There were good applause lines in there much of which I applaud myself, but I'm not sure what you were expecting me to take away from it in a personal way when it wasn't descriptive of me.

Ok I had to come back and edit this post and it's because I thought about something you said: I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things. Although it is true that my ideas on biology are fixed as they are based in fact I will respond to you assertion by saying: it seems you have very fixed ideas about things. This can actually be applied to someone else earlier who made a statement about me seeing things in "black & white". Black & white or have "fixed ideas" to me is saying you're either male or female. You're either born male or born female and in the case of the transsexual you were either born male or born female and "become" the opposite. I dispute this and say "things are not that fix or black & white". I say if you are born as a person who knows they are in the wrong body then you are born transgendered because a person born female can not actually become "male". This person couldn't actually produce sperm and procreate with a member of the opposite sex. Same with a person born in the body of a male and realizes her transsexuality. Although she can be very much a woman she can't actually become female. She can be a woman in her state of mind and in the way that she interacts with the world but she'd be a transsexual woman. I don't find anything wrong with being transsexual and really don't understand why so many people seem to.

[trish]

Though we have fundamentally distinct approaches, I think both of our perspectives are humane and respectful. Thank you for your considered responses to my interrogatives.

Again, let me say that you generally strike me as someone who is being thoughtful and respectful. The language of “self-delusion” therefore seem incongruous. Are you sure that what you call “self-delusion” isn’t just a different use of language? Don’t many people, especially on these boards, use the term “woman” in such a way that it readily accommodates transgender women? Don’t we use the pronoun “she” to refer to a transgender woman? Why wouldn’t we hope that in the near future the general usage of “woman” and “she” extends the usage that we've adopted here? Why would you want to adopt a usage that accentuates the difference between me and any other woman? Can I never be introduced as a woman? Must I always be introduced as a transgender woman? Am I delusional to include myself in the category woman? Or am I just adopting a simple way of speaking? The human race is a continuum of genders. We all recognize that. Yet we divide ourselves into men and women. Why am I not allowed to chose a side and have others respect my choice? Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice. Albeit, a choice that may have been compelled by deep and only partly understood motivations, some of them perhaps physiological and some of them not. It's a choice I invite others to respect without asides about being deluded.

[NatashaLover]

so because ONE girls says it than it must be true!!!! ok well in that same vain..men arent nothing but walking atm's

LOL you go girl!! :Bowdown: :iagree:

[dafame]

Though we have fundamentally distinct approaches, I think both of our perspectives are humane and respectful. Thank you for your considered responses to my interrogatives.

What still puzzles me is...



It is of course possible to distinguish you from every other male on the planet. So, for example, there is a difference between you and Steven Colbert, and that difference doesn’t come down to Y’s and X’s...indeed it can’t come down to Y’s and X’s because you’re both genetically male. Now if there’s a difference between you and Chaz Bono that doesn’t come down to Y’s and X’s isn’t it the same sort of difference that you have with Steven Colbert? I mean in that neither difference has anything to do with Y’s and X’s. Symmetrically, if I have a difference with Beyonce that doesn’t depend on Y’s and X’s, then isn’t that the same sort of difference that you have with Steven Colbert? How does such a difference make me something other than a women. Does your difference with Steven Colbert make you something other than a man?

Again, let me say that you generally strike me as someone who is being thoughtful and respectful. The language of “self-delusion” therefore seem incongruous. Are you sure that what you call “self-delusion” isn’t just a different use of language? Don’t many people, especially on these boards, use the term “woman” in such a way that it readily accommodates transgender women? Don’t we use the pronoun “she” to refer to a transgender woman? Why wouldn’t we hope that in the near future the general usage of “woman” and “she” extends the usage that we've adopted here? Why would you want to adopt a usage that accentuates the difference between me and any other woman? Are the distinctions you see which don’t depend on those Y’s and X’s all that important? Can I never be introduced as a woman? Must I always be introduced as a transgender woman? Am I delusional to include myself in the category woman? Or am I just adopting a simple way of speaking? The human race is a continuum of genders. We all recognize that. Yet we divide ourselves into men and women. Why am I not allowed to chose a side and have others respect my choice? Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice. Albeit, a choice that may have been compelled by deep and only partly understood motivations, some of them perhaps physiological and some of them not.

Thanks Trish. I'm thanking you for thoughtfully approaching this conversation as well and looking at is for what it is open dialog between two people sharing there views. Wish I could say the same about some of the other people that have posted in response but there somewhat juvinille approach tells me that much of how they were coming at me had more to do with them being kiss asses to the girls on this forum and feeling the need to "defend their honor' then it did them actually being offended. That's not to say that they don't actually believe what their saying.

With that said I'm not sure if you read my last post in its entirety. Only reason I say that is because I think it answers some of the questions you just posed.

First let me say that I only used the term "self-delusional" because someone else used it and at the time it seemed fitting in describing a particular feeling. There probably is a better term and I meant no harm.

You make many valid points. Of course "I" use the pronoun "she" when describing a transsexual. Of course "I" refer to you as women because that's how you see yourselves, that's the way you carry yourselves, and consequently I wouldn't treat you any other way. Of course you have the right to choose a side and no calling yourself a woman does not make you "self-delusional".

But to think that there is absolutely nothing that seperates you from a genetic born woman is to me not facing and accepting the reality of the situation. You are a woman but with an asterisk so to speak. This asterisk only signifies the fact that although you are a woman "through and through" you're not "female", you're transgendered.

Only reason I point this out Trish is because it seems to be so many people that want to live a fantasy in order to do this, and I'm talking on both the side of the girls and the guys. It's not necessary because to me transsexuality is something to be proud of and celebrated. Being a transsexual woman as apposed to a genetic born "female" women makes you no less woman.

[trish]

We're almost there, I think...except for that damn asterisk. Here's why. An asterisk doesn't conjure up the image of a subclass, but rather a parallel class. Let's just agree to call us all woman. Agree that there are wide variations within the category. That one subcategory is women who have transitioned.

BTW I deleted a paragraph from the last post, because my argument was based on a misunderstanding of what you said.

Thanks for the conversation. I gonna go now and relax for while.

[Odelay]

I worry about Ellery sometimes, just saying.

She self medicates a lot..hasn't really been to a gender identity specialist.

So as beautiful as she is, she hasn't exactly taken time to understand whats going on inside of her.

Well, she has one thing going for her... she stays away from this board. I wouldn't wish for any confused transsexual to wander into this morass.

[dafame]

We're almost there, I think...except for that damn asterisk.

Ok good point on the asterisk..lol.. Again not the best choice of a word but I think you understand the general premise behind what I'm saying.

Hey I appreciate this conversation we've had and I have new found insight as a result of the exchanges I've had with you. I consider you an ally. Talk to you later.

[Erika1487]

It has been claimed there’s nothing wrong with being what we were meant to be. But who meant me to be what I am? God? That’s a defunct idea. The Universe? Like the universe designed the things within it to serve a function and have a meaning. Biology? Chance? At conception my mother contributed an X chromosome and my father a Y. Did Chance “want” me to be a male, or was it just chance that I’m genetically male? Did Nature mean me to be a man in addition to being male? Does society? Is there really nothing at all wrong with being what society means you to be? So because I'm genetically male, does society mean[] me to be, want[] me to be a man? To function within the norms and customs as a man? I know there’s a very vocal segment of narrow minded bigots who do? Fuck them. And fuck their self-appointed spokespersons on this board. Can we not be self-determined and take responsibility for ourselves? Can we not be what we mean ourselves to be? Can we not please expect the respect that self-determination requires?

^:iagree: 100%

[Paladin]

That is one confused t-girl, but a real pretty one at the same time...

[KittyPride]

That is one confused t-girl, but a real pretty one at the same time...

She kind of reminds me of myself...

Lol yes well... sex change is a fake vagina... its a fact lol...
I dont agree that she is a man...

She is underweight through..

And she is right...
We are a mixture of both... It does not make us men...

It makes us TS

She does not seem confused... she is just dealing with the fact that
she never will be a real woman...

nice girl... she at least is not bullshitting herself like most TS do
this will give her the strength to go on...

Despite the facts... she is happy transitioning...
And she will be extremely easy on her envirement...

She must only be aware lol.... that not all people are going to agree
with her, that she is a man LOL

She'll get used to that when time goes on...

I actually instantly love a Tgirl like this....could be one of my friends...

unlike many! lol


maybe the europian climate makes us icecold realists

This is the kind of girl that is able to live in reality and still transition and being happy with what she is...
But she will get a lot of bad comments from other TS, coz it takes some guts to do what she does...

To be able to self reflect as she does...
It also makes her very feminine on the inside...

So Nicole and Evonrose...
Learn something from this girl :)

You might just upgrade yourself from fulltime CD to woman lol

[KittyPride]

Why do people insist on being so deep in their defense of this shit..lol.. Male vs Female is what we're talking about bruh. No need to be so technical because again you're reinforcing this false belief in these girls which is by far the worse part about them. I wish people would stop doing that but I realize also that just as many of them need that false sense of identity, so do many of us men in dealing with them.

Either end you're on its a complicated situation but it would be a lot simpler if people learned to love themselves for who they are rather than what they've managed to convince themselves they are or convinced themselves that the person they love or find an attraction to is.

Hi Dafame!!

In a way..I can see where you are coming from and I agree... I would love to date someone like you lol. Its because you are not fooling yourself... which is important. Only thing is: the assumption you make that a Tgirl is confusing herself when she identifies as a woman, thats where you go wrong.

Its also pretty obvious that when you feel like a woman, think like a woman (like this girl obviously does), that most likely, she is just that.
Might be a bit of a dissapointment though, to find out she isn't a man, if thats what you are after lol.

A lot of Tlovers are very dissapointed to find femininity in Tgirls...I think they either want their best friend who watches sports and drinks beer to have breasts and blond hair and the same sex drive as they do lol....
Or they are into the role reversal thing...

A true feminine TS does not really fit that picture unfortunately lol

[dafame]

Hi Dafame!!

In a way..I can see where you are coming from and I agree... I would love to date someone like you lol. Its because you are not fooling yourself... which is important. Only thing is: the assumption you make that a Tgirl is confusing herself when she identifies as a woman, thats where you go wrong.

Its also pretty obvious that when you feel like a woman, think like a woman (like this girl obviously does), that most likely, she is just that.
Might be a bit of a dissapointment though, to find out she isn't a man, if thats what you are after lol.

A lot of Tlovers are very dissapointed to find femininity in Tgirls...I think they either want their best friend who watches sports and drinks beer to have breasts and blond hair and the same sex drive as they do lol....
Or they are into the role reversal thing...

A true feminine TS does not really fit that picture unfortunately lol

KittyPride, although the general premise of what I'm saying remains in tact, I have evolved a bit on the subject just from some of the conversations I've had here and with a friend of mine outside of this forum. Self-delusional was a term that I ran with from someone else here and that was a mistake because it's not truly representive of how I feel and is a rather harsh expression of that. I recant that.

I think some of my word were misplaced and it didn't reflect truly what I was trying to say and if you go back and read some of the more recent exchanges with Trish you'll have a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your reply.

[yosi]

Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice.
.

:iagree:

it's also a simple choice to choose to ignore those who try to tell you that they know better than you who you are, inspite the fact that they never met you.

trying to tag poeple whom they never met IS self-delusion.

[MacShreach]

You might just upgrade yourself from fulltime CD to woman lol

You have to bring your sniping here too?

[lisaparadise]

An honest statement by the best looking tranny on the planet

Get a life "girls" and fact up to the fact of what she says makes a whole lotta sense!

http://ut1.xhamster.com/t/301/5_b_1013301.jpg (http://xhamster.com/movies/1013301/my_opininon_on_my_gender.html)
fuck off retard

[lisaparadise]

Really don't see anything wrong with what she said. What is there to snap out of? She said she's fine never being a "real" woman. She said that when girls get vaginas they are "fake" vaginas. Don't disagree with anything that she said because she was stating fact.

She said she knows you can be a girl born in a mans body but hormones although they change your outer appearance and make you look more the way that you feel, they don't change the fact that you were "BORN IN A MANS BODY".

Sounds to me that she's just content with being a transsexual and doesn't need to give herself the "illusion" that she's anything other than that.

While you guys are knocking her (totally understand fellas as we've been conditioned to believe that's what we're supposed to do), I think she's one of the unconfused ones.you american homos need some education,fuckin retards

[MacShreach]

fuck off retard
:Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown: Perfect.

[Stavros]

Once upon a time there were Queens, then came the Princesses; I believe there are still some Goddesses around, so to be 'just men' is indeed a fall from grace...it is the despondent tone in the video that can be dealt with, if one is, as Krishnamurti once said, 'gentle with yourself'.

you shall above all things be glad and young
for if you're young, whatever life you wear
it will become you; and if you are glad
whatever's living will yourself become.

[MacShreach]

KittyPride, although the general premise of what I'm saying remains in tact, I have evolved a bit on the subject just from some of the conversations I've had here and with a friend of mine outside of this forum. Self-delusional was a term that I ran with from someone else here and that was a mistake because it's not truly representive of how I feel and is a rather harsh expression of that. I recant that.

I think some of my word were misplaced and it didn't reflect truly what I was trying to say and if you go back and read some of the more recent exchanges with Trish you'll have a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your reply.

You do seem to have refined, at least, your standpoint--a good tete-a-tete with Trish will often do that. I believe that you are much more well-meaning than I thought you appeared at first but I think you are still missing a very important point and that is that many TS women don't want to be thought of as 'special', they don't want to be appreciated for being transsexual, they just want to be women and get on with life. That being the case, your attempt to give them special treatment, albeit in a positive way, is often going to be unwelcome. I know it's a paradox, and one that most men here don't even see as it flies over their heads, but you do seem to be deeper and able to give it more profound thought.

The reason I mentioned AIS women, and especially Complete AIS women, is that they are as chromosomally male as a post-operative transsexual woman (excepting those who have other genetic intergender issues like Klinefelter's) yet they are seen as women. Indeed they are often only diagnosed when they want to have a child and can't. That means that really, the only difference between a CAIS woman, who is seen as a woman, and a post-operative transsexual woman, is upbringing--one was raised as a boy (probably) and the other as a girl. I don't think that a few years' conditioning, which many TS women report as feeling uncomfortable with at the time, is justification enough to say TS women are not women. If you think that's defending something that does not need defending, then that's fine, but it's is still my point that all the girls are asking for is NOT to be treated, or seen, differently from any other woman.

I'm not saying that's always going to be easy. But it is an essential step in getting transsexual women to be better accepted and able to live their lives as normal, ordinary girls. If people who like TS women can't do this much for them, then how can the world of sceptics, haters and bible-thumping conservatives ever be persuaded?

[dafame]

you american homos need some education,fuckin retards

Precisely my point. I won't dignify the homo statement with a response of by taking a defensive position against it. It is what it is, just a baseless attack.

I will however say that this is to me is an issue with some (not all) transsexuals. I've noticed that there seems to be an elevated state over the "gay" community and a frown upon gay men from "some". I even heard transsexuals say things like "I can't stand gay men" or "I think it's ok for a man to be with a transsexual but two men together is just nasty".

This is not a defense of the "homo" statement but I haven't ever been with a man (meaning someone who is masculine and looks and acts the way I do) and haven't ever found myself attracted to such. That may or may not disqualify me as a "homosexual" by your standard but that's really beside the point.

Point is I don't take issue with gay men or transsexuals or lesbians or anyone else outside of what society deems to be the norm. So why would you?

I get it. You're a heterosexual female and therefore you can make statements like that. My thing is regardless to how you may feel about yourself you shouldn't denigrate people who are different if for no other reason than the struggles that you've had to go through yourself with society not viewing you through the prism of what is the norm.

It's not that I don't find a difference between you and a "homosexual" male because I do. It's the hubris in your statement that points to the "TOTAL SEPARATION" from the gay community that troubles me.

[dafame]

You do seem to have refined, at least, your standpoint--a good tete-a-tete with Trish will often do that. I believe that you are much more well-meaning than I thought you appeared at first but I think you are still missing a very important point and that is that many TS women don't want to be thought of as 'special', they don't want to be appreciated for being transsexual, they just want to be women and get on with life. That being the case, your attempt to give them special treatment, albeit in a positive way, is often going to be unwelcome. I know it's a paradox, and one that most men here don't even see as it flies over their heads, but you do seem to be deeper and able to give it more profound thought.

The reason I mentioned AIS women, and especially Complete AIS women, is that they are as chromosomally male as a post-operative transsexual woman (excepting those who have other genetic intergender issues like Klinefelter's) yet they are seen as women. Indeed they are often only diagnosed when they want to have a child and can't. That means that really, the only difference between a CAIS woman, who is seen as a woman, and a post-operative transsexual woman, is upbringing--one was raised as a boy (probably) and the other as a girl. I don't think that a few years' conditioning, which many TS women report as feeling uncomfortable with at the time, is justification enough to say TS women are not women. If you think that's defending something that does not need defending, then that's fine, but it's is still my point that all the girls are asking for is NOT to be treated, or seen, differently from any other woman.

I'm not saying that's always going to be easy. But it is an essential step in getting transsexual women to be better accepted and able to live their lives as normal, ordinary girls. If people who like TS women can't do this much for them, then how can the world of sceptics, haters and bible-thumping conservatives ever be persuaded?

I hear your point loud and clear MacShreach but I think you're missing mine. My point is based on the principle of what I believe and I'm not willing to compromise that for the sake of anyone. Because to do so would mean that I'm lying to the person that I'm with.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone that deals with TS can't view them as special or in some ways different than genetic women. I understand that most transsexuals don't wan to be seen as special and want only to be seen as "female" no different than any other naturally born woman. Accept when it comes to the mans acceptence of them and how he relates to this issue when it comes to the people in his life. She can't be "female" no more "special" that any other but if infact she's not the only TS I've dated then I become a (not my choice of word but the best to make the point) "faggot". My point is those particular women are as unacceptable to me as I would be to them. Because I will not be the only person in the relationship that has to accept the issue of transsexuality.

I never made any indication that I'd treat her any different than I would any other woman (or like a man to be more direct).

I understand the paradox, I am just not one to conform to it. If there is a woman out there for me she'll have to be closer to the understanding that I have or it just simply won't happen.

[MacShreach]

I hear your point loud and clear MacShreach but I think you're missing mine. My point is based on the principle of what I believe and I'm not willing to compromise that for the sake of anyone. Because to do so would mean that I'm lying to the person that I'm with.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone that deals with TS can't view them as special or in some ways different than genetic women. I understand that most transsexuals don't wan to be seen as special and want only to be seen as "female" no different than any other naturally born woman. Accept when it comes to the mans acceptence of them and how he relates to this issue when it comes to the people in his life. She can't be "female" no more "special" that any other but if infact she's not the only TS I've dated then I become a (not my choice of word but the best to make the point) "faggot". My point is those particular women are as unacceptable to me as I would be to them. Because I will not be the only person in the relationship that has to accept the issue of transsexuality.

I never made any indication that I'd treat her any different than I would any other woman (or like a man to be more direct).

I understand the paradox, I am just not one to conform to it. If there is a woman out there for me she'll have to be closer to the understanding that I have or it just simply won't happen.

I respect where you are, which seems a fair ways from where we began; whether that is because you have reviewed your position, or are expressing it differently, or I am understanding you better...I would have to read the whole thread again, to be honest.

FWIW I don't think you would be a 'faggot' . As I have said, these absolutist positions really have no place. As Trish says, there is a continuum of gender; there is also a continuum of sexuality. I do see where you are coming from and I agree that it is frustrating...the kind of girl you'd be interested in, would not be interested in you because of your previous experience. (Have I got that right?) I don't see any clear way through that minefield. I think some girls are reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there is any chance that it is the 't' that a man is after. :shrug

[dafame]

I respect where you are, which seems a fair ways from where we began; whether that is because you have reviewed your position, or are expressing it differently, or I am understanding you better...I would have to read the whole thread again, to be honest.

FWIW I don't think you would be a 'faggot' . As I have said, these absolutist positions really have no place. As Trish says, there is a continuum of gender; there is also a continuum of sexuality. I do see where you are coming from and I agree that it is frustrating...the kind of girl you'd be interested in, would not be interested in you because of your previous experience. (Have I got that right?) I don't see any clear way through that minefield. I think some girls are reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there is any chance that it is the 't' that a man is after. :shrug

I'm not exactly sure you mean when you say "if there's a chance that it's the "t" that a man is after? I think you mean the fact that she's transsexual and if that's the case then I'll say you're starting to get an understanding of some of my positions.

It's that attitude that I see a limitation in many girls though. To me I see that as "not looking at the reality of the situation" because if being "reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there's a chance that it is the "t" that a man is after" is what it's about then there isn't any man on this forum that's worthy of the love of one of the girls. In other words its impossible to be a man participating in this forum who isn't here interacting with the girls strictly BECAUSE they're transsexuals.

This is flawed logic to me. Someone on a previous post made a reference to interacial dating as a comparison to something I said in some respect.

That logic would be the same as me as a black man saying "I will not date black women. I will only date white women who I believe are not necessarily racist but white women whom would have never considered dating a black man in the past. Infact it was outside the realm of any possibility. If I ever learn that she has, deal breaker".

When a person logic is flawed (or atleast it's a point of view that's impossible for me to comprehend) I don't deal with them. So I say your interpretation is close but instead my position would be more along the lines of "I would not interested in the type of girl that wouldn't be interested in me because of my previous experience".

[KittyPride]

fuck off retard



truth hurts huh doll?
And she is more feminine then you will ever be..
and you KNOW that lol

[KittyPride]

It's that attitude that I see a limitation in many girls though. To me I see that as "not looking at the reality of the situation" because if being "reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there's a chance that it is the "t" that a man is after" is what it's about then there isn't any man on this forum that's worthy of the love of one of the girls. In other words its impossible to be a man participating in this forum who isn't here interacting with the girls strictly BECAUSE they're transsexuals.


dafame...
Truth is lol..

that most Tgirls aren't intelligent enough to be a Tgirl... and too many Tlovers aren't intelligent enough to date a Tgirl... it seems...

Or perhaps it takes a certain sobriaty...
There are so many people around that encourage eachothers delussions... maybe you should let them...

Its like taking God away from faithfull people...

this girl below is very brave and I instantly like her...

[KittyPride]

I understand the paradox, I am just not one to conform to it. If there is a woman out there for me she'll have to be closer to the understanding that I have or it just simply won't happen.

Goes both ways...
I would feel very uncomfortable to date a man that would never bring this up...why he likes me... why he likes that I am a TS... or why he does not care...
I dont think I would be satisfied with a simple: you are just a nice girl and Im straight...

especially not when the guy wants to suck my cock lol

I am not saying that is does not happen... straight guys do fall in love with a TS...But at least when you are a TS,... be self conscious of that... and when you date a TS.. be self conscious of that...

I mean he would be my lover
I would WANT to talk about it to him
I HAVE to...

I want to share my feelings too...

Its only logical

[Nikka]

no this shit againnnnn

[dafame]

no this shit againnnnn

No need to denigrate the people who are participating. There's been some very good conversation going on. We know what the topic is prior to clicking on the link.

[amberskyi]

I hear your point loud and clear MacShreach but I think you're missing mine. My point is based on the principle of what I believe and I'm not willing to compromise that for the sake of anyone. Because to do so would mean that I'm lying to the person that I'm with.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone that deals with TS can't view them as special or in some ways different than genetic women. I understand that most transsexuals don't wan to be seen as special and want only to be seen as "female" no different than any other naturally born woman. Accept when it comes to the mans acceptence of them and how he relates to this issue when it comes to the people in his life. She can't be "female" no more "special" that any other but if infact she's not the only TS I've dated then I become a (not my choice of word but the best to make the point) "faggot". My point is those particular women are as unacceptable to me as I would be to them. Because I will not be the only person in the relationship that has to accept the issue of transsexuality.

I never made any indication that I'd treat her any different than I would any other woman (or like a man to be more direct).

I understand the paradox, I am just not one to conform to it. If there is a woman out there for me she'll have to be closer to the understanding that I have or it just simply won't happen.

no transsexual is delusional.we are perfectly aware what our original origins are but by our very nature we just want to be seen as women (just a bit different).
we didnt cry ourselves to sleep when we were younger because we wanted just so badly more than anything to be a tranny.we cried our selves to sleep and for some even attempted to take our lives because we knew more than anything that we were meant to be a girl but some how got stuck in this hell of being in a boys body.
if you love and respect tgirls as much as you say you do than you would understand our pain and struggle to not only be a female but to also be accepted as female.
__________________

[dafame]

no transsexual is delusional.we are perfectly aware what our original origins are but by our very nature we just want to be seen as women (just a bit different).
we didnt cry ourselves to sleep when we were younger because we wanted just so badly more than anything to be a tranny.we cried our selves to sleep and for some even attempted to take our lives because we knew more than anything that we were meant to be a girl but some how got stuck in this hell of being in a boys body.
__________________

I don't and haven't disputed this. Infact I made this same point earlier. I'm on your side.

[MacShreach]

no this shit againnnnn

Yeah, you see what happened on that thread about this place being full of cds you started just before you swanned off on your lovely hols? Carnage. Sheer carnage. Typical woman, start a fight and then disappear.

Y'know,it's almost like the old days.:)

[MacShreach]

I don't and haven't disputed this. Infact I made this same point earlier. I'm on your side.

Pity, then that you snipped the last part of Amber's post, which was the point, after all:

"if you love and respect tgirls as much as you say you do than you would understand our pain and struggle to not only be a female but to also be accepted as female."

Which is my point too. I do see where you're coming from, but my support remains for Amber's position. I think if you really are on her side, you need to re-examine your position on this very carefully.

[dafame]

dafame...
Truth is lol..

that most Tgirls aren't intelligent enough to be a Tgirl... and too many Tlovers aren't intelligent enough to date a Tgirl... it seems...

Or perhaps it takes a certain sobriaty...
There are so many people around that encourage eachothers delussions... maybe you should let them...

Its like taking God away from faithfull people...

this girl below is very brave and I instantly like her...

Thanks for your post KittyPride. You understand exaclty where I'm coming from and appreciate your bravery is stepping out away from the norm.

[amberskyi]

I don't and haven't disputed this. Infact I made this same point earlier. I'm on your side.

doesnt come across that way when you support a statement saying that tgirls are just men or make arguments about why we cant just be okay with identifying as transsexual...if you really understood than you would know why a large majority of us dont identify as tranny outside the porn world

[KittyPride]

Maybe im greedy...but i want respect as a woman AND respect as a ts :D
the two dont exclude eachother to me

I agree with what amber said...

Still im not just a woman..i am different and i had to deal with it and so a potentional lover or friend has to deal with it two....

It has become part of me...being a ts....
Im not just a woman anymore

Been through way too much...

[dafame]

doesnt come across that way when you support a statement saying that tgirls are just men or make arguments about why we cant just be okay with identifying as transsexual...if you really understood than you would know why a large majority of us dont identify as tranny outside the porn world

Amberskyi this has been a very good conversation but I can't continue it with a person that misrepresents my statements. All I can do is suggest you go back and read through my posts again because I can't just keep defending positions if their not my positions to defend.

[dafame]

Maybe im greedy...but i want respect as a woman AND respect as a ts :D
the two dont exclude eachother to me

I agree with what amber said...

Still im not just a woman..i am different and i had to deal with it and so a potentional lover or friend has to deal with it two....

It has become part of me...being a ts....
Im not just a woman anymore

Been through way too much...

Everything you just said there was put beautifully. This has been the exact argument that I've been making. The two are not mutually exclusive but deserve mutual respect and appreciation. It's these two aspects that make up who you are as a person and that reality is something that your partner has no choice but to accept. Perfect.

[amberskyi]

Amberskyi this has been a very good conversation but I can't continue it with a person that misrepresents my statements. All I can do is suggest you go back and read through my posts again because I can't just keep defending positions if their not my positions to defend.

your right i was reading a bit and you seemed to recant some of your statements and you seem to be a decent bloke..my bad lol

[amberskyi]

Maybe im greedy...but i want respect as a woman AND respect as a ts :D
the two dont exclude eachother to me

I agree with what amber said...

Still im not just a woman..i am different and i had to deal with it and so a potentional lover or friend has to deal with it two....

It has become part of me...being a ts....
Im not just a woman anymore

Been through way too much...

to be honest id much rather be accepted as a woman rather than be accepted as a trans woman.im sorry, i know its weird right? acceptance should just be acceptance but i cant help but not feel that way.
for instance my boyfriends mother completely accepts and welcomes me as a trans woman but if i had my way she wouldnt know i was trans at all.i feel like no matter how cool,open minded and accepting someone is there are always going to be some connotations attached to transsexuals and also at the back of their head will be the thought that i once was a guy.i just rather due with out that.

[KittyPride]

Everything you just said there was put beautifully. This has been the exact argument that I've been making. The two are not mutually exclusive but deserve mutual respect and appreciation. It's these two aspects that make up who you are as a person and that reality is something that your partner has no choice but to accept. Perfect.

Thanks Dafame...

Its so nice to as agree with someone for once yaaah!

Missed that! Lol

[KittyPride]

to be honest id much rather be accepted as a woman rather than be accepted as a trans woman.im sorry, i know its weird right? acceptance should just be acceptance but i cant help but not feel that way.
for instance my boyfriends mother completely accepts and welcomes me as a trans woman but if i had my way she wouldnt know i was trans at all.i feel like no matter how cool,open minded and accepting someone is there are always going to be some connotations attached to transsexuals and also at the back of their head will be the thought that i once was a guy.i just rather due with out that.



Hi Amber...
Thats true i know exactly what you mean...
But is not that wishing you were a normal girl? Perhaps not...but thats what i wish for me....
Only ive come this far, for me personally, there is no going back to being just a girl...
I know im a pure girl on the inside, but being a ts has shaped me, has changed me, and not to sound like i pity myself...put personally...it scarred me...my womanhood...there is no going back to it for me...only at times and i usually cry then...lol...i deal with this by accepting im a ts...and i try to turn the negative in the positive....it has helped me to highlight the positives and being proud of the girl i am who ultimately survived this long for 30 years...i see that as an accomplishment and am proud of that...
To be merely seen as a woman, i feel that does not do me justice entirely...
I dont have to be ashamed of me...
Despite the prejudice....which is nasty...
I trust that the people that love me believe me...and especially woman seem to believe me...
Men often like to think im one of them too when they know...but thats nice if that helps me get positive attention from them ;)
Love men, after all

Xxxx

[iago_delgado]

Thoughtful post, Giovanni. I think the problem arises from a fundamental moral absolutism--that is to say that everything is either 'yes' or 'no', 'black' or 'white' 'male' female' etc. I think this comes from the absolutism implicit in the monotheistic religious culture that even today, for better or worse, informs our society. People are predisposed towards absolutist answers; the trouble is that people are human, and thus a species of living thing, and natural science tells us that within each species there is variation. Everything is a continuum, not an on/off switch. So people's sense of gender identity is really varied, just like their sense of orientation. One of the nice things about this board is you really get to see a lot of examples of that both from the men and the women.

It really can't come as a surprise that someone who does not have a standard alpha-male sense of gender will spend a lot of time wondering what the hell is going on, when they live in a society that preaches an absolutist viewpoint. At the end of the day though, if that person is happier and more fulfilled understanding that whatever she was handed at birth, she's a woman, then that's what she is, just as much as if she decides that she's not a woman or a man but somewhere in between. This is all quite natural, and the reason there is a Kinsey scale for sexuality, and a Benjamin scale for gender identification. (Yes I know about Blanchard/Bailey, but that work has been completely shot to bits in the scientific literature and I won't waste time on it here.)

Did you know, BTW, that the ancient Persians had at least six genders that were accepted within their ideology? And they were not the only culture to be much more relaxed about this sort of thing.

Best post on this topic so far. In a nutshell, religion requires binary on-off male or female. Real life produces many different variations.

Research into the brain has now identified dozens of different situations where your brain goes one way and your body does not match religious tradition. In particular, it is known that this can occur in the first third of pregnancy, so it it perfectly feasible to have a "mis-match" of brain and body 6 months before you are born. Or is it really a mis-match, as that is how life really happens?

Equally, it can happen much later, such as at puberty.

From memory, whilst insisting that you are either just male or female, Jewish religion actually had 6 categories of intersex conditions at least 2,500 years ago.

I wonder if they got some ideas from the Persians?

[MacShreach]

Best post on this topic so far. In a nutshell, religion requires binary on-off male or female. Real life produces many different variations.

Research into the brain has now identified dozens of different situations where your brain goes one way and your body does not match religious tradition. In particular, it is known that this can occur in the first third of pregnancy, so it it perfectly feasible to have a "mis-match" of brain and body 6 months before you are born. Or is it really a mis-match, as that is how life really happens?

Equally, it can happen much later, such as at puberty.

From memory, whilst insisting that you are either just male or female, Jewish religion actually had 6 categories of intersex conditions at least 2,500 years ago.

I wonder if they got some ideas from the Persians?
Hi! Thanks for the support. If you could remember where you found that info about Judaism recognising 6 categories of intersex conditions, I'd be mightily obliged.

[Odelay]

Amberskyi this has been a very good conversation but I can't continue it with a person that misrepresents my statements. All I can do is suggest you go back and read through my posts again because I can't just keep defending positions if their not my positions to defend.

Man, I wouldn't blame anyone for refusing to re-read your posts. I got halfways through the first one and said fuck it. You use about 3 times more words than you need to, your logic is generally convoluted and you obviously have way more esteem for your writing than what is warranted. It's a miracle you got a couple of the girls to engage in this thread.

[Ben]

An honest statement by the best looking tranny on the planet

Get a life "girls" and fact up to the fact of what she says makes a whole lotta sense!

http://ut1.xhamster.com/t/301/5_b_1013301.jpg (http://xhamster.com/movies/1013301/my_opininon_on_my_gender.html)

She's confused about her gender. Which is very understandable. I mean, part of life is, well, from time to time being, well, confused -- :)
I mean, it seems a lot of guys on here are confused about their sexual orientation.
I wouldn't be too hard on her. I sympathize with her. As I sympathize with most people.

[Ben]

Kinda hard to take that seriously when i'm trans and have and F on my license. I'm pretty sure they only put the F on a females license. I don't need anyone telling me who I am, I am a woman regardless of others opinions. If many doctors, psychiatrists, and my state see's me as a woman, then who is anyone else to tell me otherwise?

Nicely written Tiffany....

[dafame]

Man, I wouldn't blame anyone for refusing to re-read your posts. I got halfways through the first one and said fuck it. You use about 3 times more words than you need to, your logic is generally convoluted and you obviously have way more esteem for your writing than what is warranted. It's a miracle you got a couple of the girls to engage in this thread.

Who refused to re-read my thread? I'll re-phrase it for you "you use about 3 times words I would have used" (that's the only way that statement has any meaning). The "esteem for your writing thing was a bit strange and seems almost like an attempt to say something witty. I won't give that any credence by responding.

Your comments might carry some weight if there was anyone else that had expressed the same sentiment. You're way late on the conversation where in its current state everyone seems to have a clear understanding & respect for my stance. Then you come in with this b.s.? Admitting that you got half way through the first post and said "fuck it" automatically disqualifies you from being you from being able to make the logic comment (I'd have to imagine you're a bright enough guy to know that).

This is a clear example of someone who didn't read through the thread but instead decided to take what he thought would be the popular stance and saw an opportunity to strike out in an attempt to earn some applause from the girls. Trust me Odelay, this isn't going to make them want you. I'm going to bed. Enjoy the rest of your night everybody.

[Nowhere]

How attractive a person is does not make them be any more of an expert than any other person with gender identity issues. I've gotten the impression the girl is very much on her own, with little to no support network, and that can make transitioning incredibly hard for any girl. On the other hand, maybe she's like the person formerly known as "Dakota Moss" who seems to have just been a confused gay man? That's for her to find out.

I do think the study this book was predominantly based on (Amazon.com: A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the World's Largest Experiment Reveals about Human Desire (9780525952091): Ogi Ogas, Sai Gaddam: Books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0525952098/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=abilwictho-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=0525952098) is the closest thing I've ever seen to a proper explanation of sexuality and gender identity. Half of it is as boring as hell and not that well written, but the content pretty much explains everything. They propose that our minds are like layers of systems, all falling in some degree of the gender binary, from male to female. If it's all half and half or one goes one way and one another, it's going to create a mess in anyone's head. Anyway, check it out if you're really curious about what makes this part of people tick. I hope the girl comes to some reconciliation for some inner peace, one way or another...

[tsnajwa]

dafame...
Truth is lol..

that most Tgirls aren't intelligent enough to be a Tgirl... and too many Tlovers aren't intelligent enough to date a Tgirl... it seems...

Or perhaps it takes a certain sobriaty...
There are so many people around that encourage eachothers delussions... maybe you should let them...

Its like taking God away from faithfull people...

this girl below is very brave and I instantly like her...

omg.. if you''re not a troll or a man I'm going to be really shocked

[Merkurie]

If Ellery was 6' 4'' and weighed 220 pounds would this thread be 11 pages long?

[KittyPride]

omg.. if you''re not a troll or a man I'm going to be really shocked

Be shocked but why?

Im like this girl Ellery...i know ill never be a normal woman...does not matter how i feel, and my lovers have to deal with that too.but its not negative...

Being a ts has made me humble...more empathic...more able to enjoy each day and be thankfull and enjoying small things in life...and i have strong feelings for my friends and lovers...also it made me mentally stronger then i would have been if i wasnt ts...

Most ts hate me coz im humble or coz i tell them there is no escaping being a ts

They are only busy with passabillity and telling themselves they are just "woman" and pissing on the less passeble or avoiding men interested in them

Thats not my reality...nor will it ever be..

[Nicole Dupre]

omg.. if you''re not a troll or a man I'm going to be really shocked
Bingo. Thank you. He's this weird dude who embarrassed himself here for about two years straight. Then he disappeared, came back, and started making believe he was a TS. Now he's doing it again.

He's the most mentally disturbed HA troll ever. His life would make a good plot for an episode of Criminal Minds. We just need to know where he's been hiding the bodies.

[MacShreach]

Be shocked but why?

Im like this girl Ellery...i know ill never be a normal woman...does not matter how i feel, and my lovers have to deal with that too.but its not negative...

Being a ts has made me humble...more empathic...more able to enjoy each day and be thankfull and enjoying small things in life...and i have strong feelings for my friends and lovers...also it made me mentally stronger then i would have been if i wasnt ts...

Most ts hate me coz im humble or coz i tell them there is no escaping being a ts

They are only busy with passabillity and telling themselves they are just "woman" and pissing on the less passeble or avoiding men interested in them

Thats not my reality...nor will it ever be..

Oh for fuxake dry up already! Just shut your festering bucket, clean the spooge off your keyboard and fucking well STOP PRETENDING. Not only are you a crossdresser--well, maybe even a wannabe crossdresser--and not TS at all, you've been found out several times already, you are EXACTLY the kind of fantasising pest that fucks up places like this by pissing off the girls, and for that matter ME. And anyone here will tell you how famously patient and tolerant I am.

So piss off somewhere else and moan there about your fucking autogynephile problems and how nobody the fuck gives shit one about it over here. PLEASE.

[Nicole Dupre]

Oh for fuxake dry up already! Just shut your festering bucket, clean the spooge off your keyboard and fucking well STOP PRETENDING. Not only are you a crossdresser--well, maybe even a wannabe crossdresser--and not TS at all, you've been found out several times already, you are EXACTLY the kind of fantasising pest that fucks up places like this by pissing off the girls, and for that matter ME. And anyone here will tell you how famously patient and tolerant I am.

So piss off somewhere else and moan there about your fucking autogynephile problems and how nobody the fuck gives shit one about it over here. PLEASE.
lmao!

[trish]

We are all gazing at shadows cast upon the cave wall. When Archimedes drew a circle upon the beach he gazed down upon a crude rut, the thickness of a stick and the irregularities of the sandy canvas. But he beheld the true form of a CIRCLE and reasoned with perfect certainty that its circumference was exactly proportional to its diameter. So too I am a dancing shadow. A crude exemplar. Yet I partake of the form WOMAN. Reason about WOMAN and you reason about me. Anyone who doubts it, partakes of the form ASSHOLE. (And I won’t take no shit about the distinction between a form and a metaphor :) )

[Prospero]

Trish - you are one very witty lady. But I think you are shadow boxing with an Aristotelian - or assholetelian.

[trish]

Very good coinage! Two days ago in this thread I was Wittgenstein (the later Wittgenstein of the Investigations), today life is much easier, I'm just an assholetelian.

[Prospero]

No YOU are not an Assholetalian! You are a Platonist. Jeez

[trish]

That's sweet of you to say. So come and tell me Prospero, what is [it] that Platonists have in common by virtue of which they are Platonists? And assholetalians, what have they in common by virtue of which they are assholes?

I tire of examinations and inquiries. Break the seal on that wine and pour us a cup.

[giovanni_hotel]

We are all gazing at shadows cast upon the cave wall. When Archimedes drew a circle upon the beach he gazed down upon a crude rut, the thickness of a stick and the irregularities of the sandy canvas. But he beheld the true form of a CIRCLE and reasoned with perfect certainty that its circumference was exactly proportional to its diameter. So too I am a dancing shadow. A crude exemplar. Yet I partake of the form WOMAN. Reason about WOMAN and you reason about me. Anyone who doubts it, partakes of the form ASSHOLE. (And I won’t take no shit about the distinction between a form and a metaphor :) )


LOL!!

Trish just gave Kitty a lobotomy.

[MacShreach]

That's sweet of you to say. So come and tell me Prospero, what is that Platonists have in common by virtue of which they are Platonists? And assholetalians, what have they in common by virtue of which they are assholes?

I tire of examinations and inquiries. Break the seal on that wine and pour us a cup.

I look forward to the day.

[KittyPride]

LOL!!

Trish just gave Kitty a lobotomy.

Yeah sorth of lol

[runningdownthatdream]

We are all gazing at shadows cast upon the cave wall. When Archimedes drew a circle upon the beach he gazed down upon a crude rut, the thickness of a stick and the irregularities of the sandy canvas. But he beheld the true form of a CIRCLE and reasoned with perfect certainty that its circumference was exactly proportional to its diameter. So too I am a dancing shadow. A crude exemplar. Yet I partake of the form WOMAN. Reason about WOMAN and you reason about me. Anyone who doubts it, partakes of the form ASSHOLE. (And I won’t take no shit about the distinction between a form and a metaphor :) )

Changing the subject completely but inspired by your dancing cave shadows.....have you seen Cave of Forgotten Dreams yet?

[trish]

Yes. Indeed I have. The only way the general public will ever set these ancient drawings will be through documentaries like this one.

The paintings were made by different artists over a several hundred year period. You have to wonder what the painters felt and thought. Was it just graffiti? Was it a gallery? Was it ceremony, religion and superstition? Why did they paint only animals (with the exception of one fertility figure). Did the artist admire the work of his predecessors? Would they think it strange that their modern counterparts refrain from adding to their testimony? Would they be disappointed in us?

For me the film evoked a tide of unanswerable questions which have since ebbed, yet remain. I recommend it.

(Gotta work tomorrow so we won't hijack the thread for long...I'm off to bed. Good night runningdownthatdream. Good night HungAngels. Good night laptop. And good night Moon)

[Prospero]

I love this girl Trish. Or woman. Or electric shadow on my cave wall. Good morning sun and frost. Good morning desktop. Wine - whine - one day maybe.

Cave of unknown descendents.

[MacShreach]

Yes. Indeed I have. The only way the general public will ever set these ancient drawings will be through documentaries like this one.

The paintings were made by different artists over a several hundred year period. You have to wonder what the painters felt and thought. Was it just graffiti? Was it a gallery? Was it ceremony, religion and superstition? Why did they paint only animals (with the exception of one fertility figure). Did the artist admire the work of his predecessors? Would they think it strange that their modern counterparts refrain from adding to their testimony? Would they be disappointed in us?

For me the film evoked a tide of unanswerable questions which have since ebbed, yet remain. I recommend it.

(Gotta work tomorrow so we won't hijack the thread for long...I'm off to bed. Good night runningdownthatdream. Good night HungAngels. Good night laptop. And good night Moon)

The caves do pose questions that are unanswerable, yes, but when you look at them in conjunction with other cave discoveries such as at Lascaux, you can begin to develop a picture of the life that was being led by the people. Personally I think the paintings at Chauvet and Lascaux (despite the separation in origin date, though there is question over that) were shamanic in nature. I think groups of hunters came together at these sites in the winter to exchange and barter, to shelter from the worst weather, to socialise and to celebrate the past season's hunting and to carry out rituals that would ensure a good hunting season in the year to come. I think the paintings were part of that. (Indeed I think it is from this that we inherit the tradition of celebrating midwinter, and that it greatly predates the agrarian celebrations of spring and autumn.)

We will never know precisely how people lived in Europe durng the last Ice Age, but what should be most striking about the paintings, and the discovered art objects such as the Venus of Willendorf, is the enormous sophistication of the work. This was not 'primitive man'. These were people like us.

Anyway, better get back to letting people fight about the thread topic....:)

[Prospero]

LOL MacShreach.... I think you are spot on regafding the probable meaning of those cave illustrations. What I have found puxxling is the creation of work deep deep in the furthest reaches of some cave systems - long walks into the most inaccessible parts of the caves. They would have to have carried or created light down there, hours inside the sytem. Why so remote? Safety? They would know also that no-one would see their work except a chosen few - led there by the creators. Primitive is surely an ill used and rather throwaway term really i. The early work of great artists is, perhaps, well described as primitive in the light of their later development. But I don't think early art - from cave paintings forward - should be described that way. Nor should the use or purpose of created art in one era trump the value of its use in another. But unlike the torrent of explanation about art once language was developed, we can ony ever surmise about its place in human affairs before language was born.
Finally though - we are the only species that makes art. Is there even any evidence of our predecessors -Neanderthal etc - having made "art."

[muh_muh]

have you seen Cave of Forgotten Dreams yet?

oh god
ive tried that but his accent is just too cringeworthy for 2 hours

[MacShreach]

LOL MacShreach.... I think you are spot on regafding the probable meaning of those cave illustrations. What I have found puxxling is the creation of work deep deep in the furthest reaches of some cave systems - long walks into the most inaccessible parts of the caves. They would have to have carried or created light down there, hours inside the sytem. Why so remote? Safety? They would know also that no-one would see their work except a chosen few - led there by the creators. Primitive is surely an ill used and rather throwaway term really i. The early work of great artists is, perhaps, well described as primitive in the light of their later development. But I don't think early art - from cave paintings forward - should be described that way. Nor should the use or purpose of created art in one era trump the value of its use in another. But unlike the torrent of explanation about art once language was developed, we can ony ever surmise about its place in human affairs before language was born.
Finally though - we are the only species that makes art. Is there even any evidence of our predecessors -Neanderthal etc - having made "art."

I think the cave represents the womb of the Earth Mother. We have thousands of artefacts from this era (admitttedly it was a very long era) which strongly suggest that the Mother was the principle deity, possibly the only one. We also have found, in France, cave entrances which are vulva-shaped, but which have also been daubed with ochre. (Menstrual blood being taboo is a Judeo-Christian thing--we know that it was celebrated in Goddess cultures.) So I think that these caves were a kind of temple, a metaphorical womb deep within the earth, within the body of the Mother herself, where (and this is my opinion because it can't be proved) a priesthood of probably female shamans honoured the animals who had been killed to feed the tribe by painting their images, and carried out rituals to ensure the success of the next season. Again it's my opinion that men would not have been allowed into the inner spaces of the cave/temple, and that the votive paintings and the ceremony surrounding them, were kept secret. Although there are many examples of a male shaman caste, there are also many of female ones and this, with the very widespread evidence for Goddess worship is what inclines me to this view.

Part of the problem with your second question is that we really don't know who made the paleolithic art we have discovered. It has always been attributed to modern humans but I think most people would be hard put to come up with any real evidence of that, other than that much of the work, to my eye at least, has a definitively 'human' feel. I know that someone like me could have made these things.

Also, it's often forgotten that the Stone Age was just as much the Wood Age, and we have lost by far the greater part of all the artefacts that once existed because wood is not durable. Because of this there isn't really enough material to discern the likely stylistic differences that there would be between modern human and Neanderthal art. All I can say is 'what I would give for a time machine'.

I entirely agree with you about the notions of 'primitive' and so on; these are part of a mindset prevalent up till the late 20th century when it was assumed that modern European people were more 'advanced' than anyone else, and that cultural history was a long hill that we had climbed up, so that we could look down on others. And that was the same mindset that gave us colonialism and the slave trade. Modern science has absolutely proved that we are not more 'advanced' in the way that this holds, either over people who came before us or people who live somewhere else...unfortunately however, there are some who still cling to those outdated ideas.

There's nothing even slightly unsophisticated in the drawing, for example, of the cave paintings; these artists were really good at what they did, they had practised and they had looked at nature and understood its shapes and forms. Their line is fluid yet definitive, economical yet lyrical. They were trained.

I'm pretty sure language had been developed a long time before these cave paintings, by the way.

[runningdownthatdream]

Yes. Indeed I have. The only way the general public will ever set these ancient drawings will be through documentaries like this one.

The paintings were made by different artists over a several hundred year period. You have to wonder what the painters felt and thought. Was it just graffiti? Was it a gallery? Was it ceremony, religion and superstition? Why did they paint only animals (with the exception of one fertility figure). Did the artist admire the work of his predecessors? Would they think it strange that their modern counterparts refrain from adding to their testimony? Would they be disappointed in us?

For me the film evoked a tide of unanswerable questions which have since ebbed, yet remain. I recommend it.

(Gotta work tomorrow so we won't hijack the thread for long...I'm off to bed. Good night runningdownthatdream. Good night HungAngels. Good night laptop. And good night Moon)

.........speculation is that the paintings were done thousands of years apart with the earliest being around 24,000 BC. Whatever their purpose, they are stunning and inspired more primal feelings in me than anything else I've seen before. Made me feel sad too.......while we live longer lives they have become more complicated and too, I feel our 'lives' have been subsumed by material wants.........goodnight Moon should have far more mystical connotations for us than it does :)

[trish]

Home Work: compare and contrast the Cave of Forgotten Dreams with http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

Wednesday morning (a day before we got into this conversation) I was almost late to lecture gawking at this link (thinking deep thoughts like "Wow! This is incredible!"). Now I'm reminded of it again. Complexity vs Simplicity ( a theme to which MacShreach alludes ) comes to mind. Both may or may not be religious, but the earlier work seems positively innocent by comparison. The obsessions within the Christian work now strike me almost sick!?

[runningdownthatdream]

Home Work: compare and contrast the Cave of Forgotten Dreams with http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

Wednesday morning (a day before we got into this conversation) I was almost late to lecture gawking at this link (thinking deep thoughts like "Wow! This is incredible!"). Now I'm reminded of it again. Complexity vs Simplicity ( a theme to which MacShreach alludes ) comes to mind. Both may or may not be religious, but the earlier work seems positively innocent by comparison. The obsessions within the Christian work now strike me almost sick!?

Innocent, simple but more evocative IMO. Later religious art was inspired by religion seeking to control man rather whereas more primitive religion paid homage to a deity in the hopes that deity would influence the natural elements. Later religion had to become more convoluted and so its images, iconography had to become more so to better confuse and discombobulate!

.................again just my opinion :)

[muh_muh]

i think were missing the much simpler expanation that those were drawn by a kid that probably got into a lot of toruble for paiting the walls of his room

[MacShreach]

Home Work: compare and contrast the Cave of Forgotten Dreams with http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

Wednesday morning (a day before we got into this conversation) I was almost late to lecture gawking at this link (thinking deep thoughts like "Wow! This is incredible!"). Now I'm reminded of it again. Complexity vs Simplicity ( a theme to which MacShreach alludes ) comes to mind. Both may or may not be religious, but the earlier work seems positively innocent by comparison. The obsessions within the Christian work now strike me almost sick!?

Oh Trish, there's a big one...Complexity and simplicity...I think great art is always both, to be honest. Certainly in the Chauvet caves, there is one famous picture of four horses, which is very complex in its composition, yet simple in its allure...again, you could look at sculpture by Brancusi or Jean Arp and see them as simple but when you spend time with them you begin to realise just how complex and sophisticated they really are. I have always said that 'technique should be invisible.' You should be amazed by the art, not by how clever the artist was...though of course, in the best work, the artists are very clever indeed. These cave paintings, by any measure, are great art, but every period has had great art.

As for Christian art, if you mean Christian religious art, you really have to speak of Catholic art, because there is so little in the Protestant traditions. Because you were referencing the Sistine, I think you were probably thinking of post-Renaissance art, which was characterised, up until the mid 19th century, by the pursuit of naturalistic representation. Photography liberated painters from this, which is one of the reasons we see the huge stylistic changes that led to contemporary art, and sometimes, to our photographically-conditioned eyes, the post-Renaissance work can seem tight and excessively formal.

All I can say, without getting into a really detailed discussion, (which I would be happy to do later but I don't have time right now...you know how much I like talking with you,Trish) is that sometimes you have to see beyond the image and try to understand the underlying metaphor. Obviously (I hope) the Goddess is central to Catholic art, certainly in Europe, but there's a lot more in there.

[Prospero]

Complexity V simplicity in art. A lot of the seemingly simple contemporary (or rather modern) art seems simple because the artists have learned and gone through complexity. The idea, offered in simple form, is complex if examined properly. But what MacShreach alludes to is a relatively modern idea (at the time). Contrast the pure force of Arp or Brancusi or Moore with the baroque or the roccoco. It certainly suits our contemporary emotional and aesthetic needs better. But the idea of "progress" - the "sophisticated present" versus the "relatively primitive pst" - i think we all agree is not one that is really intellectually acceptable right now.

[Stavros]

1) From a practical angle, painting in caves preserves the images which would fade in the light of day, no mystery there; archaeological theory has merged with cultural theory to argue that cave paintings are the first example of Homo Symbolicus -humans thinking and expressing themselves in symbols -a connection is then made to the Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt where Gods take animal form -in North America, in Canada I think, they found that the one animal that was not depicted -the Reindeer- was the one they ate the most.

2) The differentiation of non-human things: beads, artefacts, animals -may represent once insular communities making contact with others, and attaching a sense of identity to things to say: this is mine, not yours. And yet, evolution has relied upon knowledge transfer, and we cannot be sure we are talking about things as being conceived of as private property -but then people do assume that early societies practised a form of what Marx called Primitive Communism, but then the procesional theory of social development was discredited long ago. So it becomes part of the concept of an acquisitive social milieu, what Andre Gunder Frank once characterised as being the fundemental propulsion of human society since the outset: the cumulation of accumulation.

3) It is not true that the phobia of menstrual blood is solely Judeo-Christian, Gilbert Herdt's pioneering/controversial work on Papua New Guinea argues that the segregation of male-female spaces is generated in part by phobias about bodily smells and liquids, in which white= positive (semen, breast milk) and red= negative (menstrual blood, blood shed in anger or violence).

4) There is plenty of non-Catholic art, vide the Ikons of Russia and Greece; dare I mention Rembrandt, Lucas Cranach the Elder, Hans Holbein, or Caspar David Friedrich, who, after the glories of renaissance Spain and Italy, produced the most magnificent religious paintings?

But I have no deep undersanding of what cave paintings are or what they mean, but concur with the consensus they must be part of some early religion/cosmology.

[MacShreach]

1) From a practical angle, painting in caves preserves the images which would fade in the light of day, no mystery there; archaeological theory has merged with cultural theory to argue that cave paintings are the first example of Homo Symbolicus -humans thinking and expressing themselves in symbols -a connection is then made to the Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt where Gods take animal form -in North America, in Canada I think, they found that the one animal that was not depicted -the Reindeer- was the one they ate the most.

2) The differentiation of non-human things: beads, artefacts, animals -may represent once insular communities making contact with others, and attaching a sense of identity to things to say: this is mine, not yours. And yet, evolution has relied upon knowledge transfer, and we cannot be sure we are talking about things as being conceived of as private property -but then people do assume that early societies practised a form of what Marx called Primitive Communism, but then the procesional theory of social development was discredited long ago. So it becomes part of the concept of an acquisitive social milieu, what Andre Gunder Frank once characterised as being the fundemental propulsion of human society since the outset: the cumulation of accumulation.

3) It is not true that the phobia of menstrual blood is solely Judeo-Christian, Gilbert Herdt's pioneering/controversial work on Papua New Guinea argues that the segregation of male-female spaces is generated in part by phobias about bodily smells and liquids, in which white= positive (semen, breast milk) and red= negative (menstrual blood, blood shed in anger or violence).

4) There is plenty of non-Catholic art, vide the Ikons of Russia and Greece; dare I mention Rembrandt, Lucas Cranach the Elder, Hans Holbein, or Caspar David Friedrich, who, after the glories of renaissance Spain and Italy, produced the most magnificent religious paintings?

But I have no deep undersanding of what cave paintings are or what they mean, but concur with the consensus they must be part of some early religion/cosmology.

While it is true that darkness would prevent the images fading, I would still conjecture that the caves were chosen for symbolical or shamanic reasons. Of course it is possible that the outside rock was also painted but that these have been lost through weathering; but if that were the case, why go to the trouble of going deep inside the earth to do it? In addition, the charcoal and earth pigments that were used would have lasted many decades without fading from sunlight, again suggesting that the deep caves were used for another reason. Further, there are references to caves as analagous to the womb of the Earth Mother in many early mythologies; Mithras, for example, was born from a cave. I will hold to my contention there; I did say it was an opinion, and one that can't be strictly proved, but it has plausibility.

I'm not at all convinced about the idea of the 'cumulation of accummulation' being a strong motivator in these early societies, but there is not enough evidence in either direction to argue the case. What we can say is that the accummulation of wealth became a major social impetus with the arrival of city-based culture, with its shift towards patriarchy and patriarchal religion, and of course, warfare.

I don't remember saying that menstrual blood was solely a Judeo-Christian taboo, but if I did I stand corrected; there are plenty of other cultures where it is also reviled. However we do know that the so called pagan culture that predated Christianity in Europe and elsewhere did not share this taboo, and its rise appears to be a part of a more generalised misogyny which developed in the Abrahamic monotheisms.

There is of course plenty of Iconic art from the Orthodox areas, but it cannot be said to have experienced the development that was obvious in Western European art after the Renaissance. Perhaps I should have made it clear that was what I was talking about, but since the conversation began with Michelangelo, I did not think that was necessary.

As for the illustrious artists you mention, Holbein and Cranach were both born into Catholic traditions and produced much work for Catholic patrons, and C D Friedrich is a noted exception to the Protestant tradition. Of all of them, Rembrandt van Rijn, whose father was Catholic, was the most difficult to categorise, with many different styles during his long career. His depiction of religious scenes differs very greatly from the work of, say Michelangelo, which is where we began, sort of. Rembrandt painted illustrations of Biblical scenes, but also used many other classical sources. I think there is a difference between this use of Biblical and Classical sources, and the use of similar sources by many Catholic artists when working in a religious context, in that Rembrandt's work, even when referring to Biblical sources, is essentially secular, (something that he shares with many Catholic artists, of course; it is absolutely not the case that all art by Catholic artists has been Catholic religious art, far from it.)

I think it's misleading to suggest that because art has its source in a Biblical story, that it is necessarily religious art; if that were the case then we would have to categorise all of the post-Renaissance art that used classical sources as religious, since the root story was a part of a religious tradition (albeit one no longer practised.) But these paintings have no devotional purpose and so are not really religious per se. We cannot say that because an artist was Catholic or Protestant, that his or her art is necessarily Catholic or Protestant in a religious sense or context.

I therefore stand my ground; in comparison to the vast amount of Catholic religious art in the post-Renaissance period, there is very little comparable Protestant art.

[Odelay]

Changing the subject completely but inspired by your dancing cave shadows.....have you seen Cave of Forgotten Dreams yet?
Wonder if Dino has seen this? He's a big fan of of the Herzog-Kinski collaborations, but then Herzog is a bit eclectic so perhaps Dino isn't a fan of his entire body of work.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. Got it saved in my Neflix streaming queue.

[Prospero]

Amused at what people looking at this thread for the first time and reading the discussion on the meaning of cave art will make of it.

Oh - and shemales are not just men.

[MacShreach]

Amused at what people looking at this thread for the first time and reading the discussion on the meaning of cave art will make of it.

Oh - and shemales are not just men.

Yeah I was enjoying that. Seemed like a positive hijack!

Seconded on the on-topic part.


And just to be OT again...

It happens that I was in one of the lesser but still magnificent French cathedrals today. Often people forget that when they were new, they were not bare stone, but painted throughout, and there is still some of the original paintwork preserved in this one....what they must have been like! Awe-inspiring. But that was the point of course; to enter the womb of the Goddess herself and be...overwhelmed. There's a line of connection between these and the caves, without any doubt in my mind.

[Prospero]

Think you are correct on that MacShreach. People also forget that the greek statues were also painted. The classical revival has given s the idea of pure white marble.
Which cathedral? I confess that my favourite remains Chartres.

[MacShreach]

Think you are correct on that MacShreach. People also forget that the greek statues were also painted. The classical revival has given s the idea of pure white marble.
Which cathedral? I confess that my favourite remains Chartres.

Chartres is fantastic but it's a long way away. I was at St Vincent in Chalon-sur-Saone. The facade is neoclassical but parts of the interior are 8th century.

[frownyface420]

read "whipping girl" by julia serano... wish i could tell Elly too but I don't know how to talk to her ~ it helped clear lots of my confusion over my inherit knowledge that yes i am a boy, but i really wanna be a girl ~ Julia is smart, she helped me come out :)

[Dkg]

the same we "these people" are being so deeply defensive is the same way your being so deeply aggressive about your point of view.
the SCIENTIFIC answer to this question is while we are not biological woman we arent biological men either.
hormones do alot more than just give us boobs and pretty skin.it actually changes alot of ways very crucial internal organs function and look.over time our bodies and organs strive to function as much as a females as possible.tgirls have different sized brains than men (even before hormones),hearts functions differently,prostate shrinks,bladder shrinks,hips end up rotating forward,change in eyes shape,bone density changes,certain sweat glands become in active, and etc
so yes your right we arent biological women but we arent men either..when was the last time you got a mammogram..something you as a man will never really have to worry about but already my doctor does breast exams on me and the pleasure that is a mammogram lies waiting in my future...

Interesting...I'll have to look this up. Never heard of that before. Anyways, while she is right that, genetically, transwomen can never be biological women, that doesn't mean that they are not women nonetheless

[Ineeda SM]

the same we "these people" are being so deeply defensive is the same way your being so deeply aggressive about your point of view.
the SCIENTIFIC answer to this question is while we are not biological woman we arent biological men either.
hormones do alot more than just give us boobs and pretty skin.it actually changes alot of ways very crucial internal organs function and look.over time our bodies and organs strive to function as much as a females as possible.tgirls have different sized brains than men (even before hormones),hearts functions differently,prostate shrinks,bladder shrinks,hips end up rotating forward,change in eyes shape,bone density changes,certain sweat glands become in active, and etc
so yes your right we arent biological women but we arent men either..when was the last time you got a mammogram..something you as a man will never really have to worry about but already my doctor does breast exams on me and the pleasure that is a mammogram lies waiting in my future...

Everything you said about organs shrinking is correct. But there is no difference in function of organs in men or women. In fact, they are all 100% compatible for transplant into the opposite sex. The only requirement of compatibillity is blood type. Even though the organs shrink, their genitic makeup remains the same. When I see you, I see a lovely woman. And I will treat you as a woman because that is who you are. A TS's identity and psychological makeup is 100% a woman's. But if we took a blood sample from you and did a DNA check, it would still say you are a genitic male. There is no arguing with this as it is a fact.

But once again as this has been discussed to death so many times, it is not important. It is just a mere difference between psychology and biology. For all intent and purposes, TS ARE WOMEN, and deserve all of the respect to their identity as would be afforded to any GG. Anyone who doesn't see you as a woman is blind and stupid. That's the only important part to remember.

[amberskyi]

Everything you said about organs shrinking is correct. But there is no difference in function of organs in men or women. In fact, they are all 100% compatible for transplant into the opposite sex. The only requirement of compatibillity is blood type. Even though the organs shrink, their genitic makeup remains the same. When I see you, I see a lovely woman. And I will treat you as a woman because that is who you are. A TS's identity and psychological makeup is 100% a woman's. But if we took a blood sample from you and did a DNA check, it would still say you are a genitic male. There is no arguing with this as it is a fact.

But once again as this has been discussed to death so many times, it is not important. It is just a mere difference between psychology and biology. For all intent and purposes, TS ARE WOMEN, and deserve all of the respect to their identity as would be afforded to any GG. Anyone who doesn't see you as a woman is blind and stupid. That's the only important part to remember.

actually there was a study that showed that not only did our brains change in size but also in the way it functions...any way to be honest im getting a bit tired of being on these fucking forums that just want to beat into our head s that we're males....
im just going to get a vag and pretend that everything before was a bad dream

[Ineeda SM]

actually there was a study that showed that not only did our brains change in size but also in the way it functions...any way to be honest im getting a bit tired of being on these fucking forums that just want to beat into our head s that we're males....
im just going to get a vag and pretend that everything before was a bad dream

Anber, don't look at it that way. Yes there are some assholes that call you a man just to rag on you and start arguments. I sincerely hope you don't think that was my intention. I have a TS girlfriend that I love dearly. I certainly could never see her as a man any more than I could see most of the girls as men, including yourself. My respect and defense for the total female identity is sincere.

Let me put it this way, and my TS GF agrees. As I said, anyone who doesn't see you as a woman is blind and stupid. But the video in the OP was not technically lying. She was speaking in forensic terms of biology. It was probably stupid for her to say that TS are men, because the context will be distorted by those who just want to rag on TS. But then again, this is an open porn forum with no censorship and it will attract that type every time. If everyone (Including myself) would just stay away from threads like this, this problem would not be that big of a deal.

Stay cute Amber.

[Bunzee]

her post just underlines the fact that gender is many variants, even though people are BORN as either male or female, how they FEEL or want to PRESENT has indefinitely many shades ... and there are as many opinions as there are people ... nobody is wrong or right, to each their own

[LeelaWang]

The universe makes no mistakes... out of 7 billion people, there is bound to be some variety within human expression, as is in all nature, everything has unique expression, not ever once has there been two exact snowflakes, and as complex and complicated as human beings are, there is bound to be all types and forms of expression especially in the gender spectrum, i think of it akin to a bell curve of sorts, the lgbt more on the shallower ends, but a part of nature with every right to live and enjoy freedoms as the rest. We silly humans make the divisions, the classifications, the labels...it's a waste of time and effort, at least that's how i see it. i hope someday in the future there won't be a LGBT alliance, in the respects that we won't need it anymore, that we won't have categories, just people, with varieties to be celebrated, not hated... :D and by celebration, i mean :salad:fuckin::jerkoff

[biberkopf]

Biologically, based on her reproductive organs at birth she is and will be male; but, she has definitely changed her gender! She's transforming herself into the feminine gender. You can't change the factual circumstances of your birth but you sure as hell can change your gender!

[EvonRose]

Biologically, based on her reproductive organs at birth she is and will be male; but, she has definitely changed her gender! She's transforming herself into the feminine gender. You can't change the factual circumstances of your birth but you sure as hell can change your gender!

No they are changing their sex... Ts have always been women by gender, born male by sex... Sex is genital and secondary characteristic influenced... Big difference... That is they do change their sex, but they never changed gender...

FYI DNA and chromosomes biologically are imperfect, imperfection is normal, many sex born women have been proven to carry male chromosomes or even test male by blood sample but carry every female reproductive organ.... Stop being so ignorant people, test a true transexuals woman's blood there are its bound to be just xy chromosomes most likely, The world is not black and white. Millions of people around the world have defects of any type from blood, mental, genitals, chromosomes, hormones etc the is why people like us exist because there is something going on in our bodies that you do not know about...

If someone was born with 6 fingers, is it wrong to cut the extra off just to fit in what your suppose to be?
If you have cancer is it wrong to go under radiation just because its not normal and was scientifically made?
Are you suppose to just let a tumor grow? No we treat it, that is why biology also has science.

We ts woman change our sex because it's not right we have an abnormality! Get it? got it? good...

[Nicole Dupre]

There are lots of cases of being intersexed. ISM won't really acknowledge them tho'. He gets upset if you stray from the traditional 'either/or' way of thinking about this stuff. lol I mean I do accept that I'm not a GG, but I was told that a karyotype test would probably reveal that I'm intersexed. I got little tits when I went through puberty, although I wasn't fat. I had no hair on my body and only a little peach fuzz on my face. My voice was always kinda high pitched too until I smoked. And my hormone levels were pretty screwed up before HRT. That's a fact. That's what made them think I was probably intersexed. My dick functioned, but I had very little testo; well below average. Tula was born that way too, and so was Heavenly Sin. It's called Klinefelter's syndrome. The karyotype tests are expensive tho'. I never cared that much or felt I needed to prove anything.

[biberkopf]

No they are changing their sex... Ts have always been women by gender, born male by sex... Sex is genital and secondary characteristic influenced... Big difference... That is they do change their sex, but they never changed gender...

FYI DNA and chromosomes biologically are imperfect, imperfection is normal, many sex born women have been proven to carry male chromosomes or even test male by blood sample but carry every female reproductive organ.... Stop being so ignorant people, test a true transexuals woman's blood there are its bound to be just xy chromosomes most likely, The world is not black and white. Millions of people around the world have defects of any type from blood, mental, genitals, chromosomes, hormones etc the is why people like us exist because there is something going on in our bodies that you do not know about...

If someone was born with 6 fingers, is it wrong to cut the extra off just to fit in what your suppose to be?
If you have cancer is it wrong to go under radiation just because its not normal and was scientifically made?
Are you suppose to just let a tumor grow? No we treat it, that is why biology also has science.

We ts woman change our sex because it's not right we have an abnormality! Get it? got it? good...
Sorry to come off sounding ignorant, but I don't think I am. Physically, she has changed her gender, although mentally she hasn't. Genitalia is considered the primary sexual characteristic. All the other stuff that hits during puberty - in the case of a woman, breasts, differences in facial shape, wider hips, etc - those are secondary sexual characteristics. I looked at the video and she's calling herself a guy and I'm thinking, no you're not. What's her chromosomal make up? Who knows? I don't think it matters. I think the words sex and gender lead to confusion when they are used interchangeably, because as transgendered people show, the two things can be separated.

[Nikka]

I am not a man , but I have a wiener

[EvonRose]

Sorry to come off sounding ignorant, but I don't think I am. Physically, she has changed her gender, although mentally she hasn't. Genitalia is considered the primary sexual characteristic. All the other stuff that hits during puberty - in the case of a woman, breasts, differences in facial shape, wider hips, etc - those are secondary sexual characteristics. I looked at the video and she's calling herself a guy and I'm thinking, no you're not. What's her chromosomal make up? Who knows? I don't think it matters. I think the words sex and gender lead to confusion when they are used interchangeably, because as transgendered people show, the two things can be separated.

I changed my sex... Transgeder is the umbrella, I consider and know I am a woman and changed my sex... Transgender is the wide spectrum, but transexual are very different... The title of this thread is ignorant in the first place, nobody calls a transexual or transgender a she-male unless it is used derogatory in porn... If a man would call me a ladyboy, she-male, etc I would take of my christian loubuitins and knock your ass out! its highly offensive!

[Tobe]

No they are changing their sex... Ts have always been women by gender, born male by sex... Sex is genital and secondary characteristic influenced... Big difference... That is they do change their sex, but they never changed gender...

FYI DNA and chromosomes biologically are imperfect, imperfection is normal, many sex born women have been proven to carry male chromosomes or even test male by blood sample but carry every female reproductive organ.... Stop being so ignorant people, test a true transexuals woman's blood there are its bound to be just xy chromosomes most likely, The world is not black and white. Millions of people around the world have defects of any type from blood, mental, genitals, chromosomes, hormones etc the is why people like us exist because there is something going on in our bodies that you do not know about...

If someone was born with 6 fingers, is it wrong to cut the extra off just to fit in what your suppose to be?
If you have cancer is it wrong to go under radiation just because its not normal and was scientifically made?
Are you suppose to just let a tumor grow? No we treat it, that is why biology also has science.

We ts woman change our sex because it's not right we have an abnormality! Get it? got it? good...

This is a very complex and multifaceted issue.

Up to 1 in 20,000 women actually have a 46,XY karyotype (i.e., male). This occurs in the setting of androgen insensitivity syndrome (the receptor for testosterone does not work, so despite high levels of testosterone, it cannot exert an effect on the body). So, a penis does not form during development. However, the testes still produce other compounds such as Mullerian inhibiting factor, which prevents the higher female urogenital tract, including the uterus, from forming. Overall, they tend to be tall (due to a Y chromosome effect), have very little body hair (due to an inability of testosterone to exert its effect), have a normal lower vagina, have undescended testes, have normal to large breasts (still have estrogen production by the testes which promotes this, but no androgen effect which would block this). From a mental standpoint, they usually identify as women and have a "female-type" brain.

Transgender conditions are poorly understood. They are very likely heterogenous and likely involve some hormonal based effects as well as some psychological effects... e.g., early life androgen exposure, function of the androgen receptor, etc. Studies have shown some differences in brain structures as well. Overall, what mainly counts is how the individual feels and how he or she identifies with a particular gender.

[EvonRose]

This is a very complex and multifaceted issue.

Up to 1 in 20,000 women actually have a 46,XY karyotype (i.e., male). This occurs in the setting of androgen insensitivity syndrome (the receptor for testosterone does not work, so despite high levels of testosterone, it cannot exert an effect on the body). So, a penis does not form during development. However, the testes still produce other compounds such as Mullerian inhibiting factor, which prevents the higher female urogenital tract, including the uterus, from forming. Overall, they tend to be tall (due to a Y chromosome effect), have very little body hair (due to an inability of testosterone to exert its effect), have a normal lower vagina, have undescended testes, have normal to large breasts (still have estrogen production by the testes which promotes this, but no androgen effect which would block this). From a mental standpoint, they usually identify as women and have a "female-type" brain.

Transgender conditions are poorly understood. They are very likely heterogenous and likely involve some hormonal based effects as well as some psychological effects... e.g., early life androgen exposure, function of the androgen receptor, etc. Studies have shown some differences in brain structures as well. Overall, what mainly counts is how the individual feels and how he or she identifies with a particular gender.

The ts population in the world is very small, not as much as one may think...Chromosomes imbalance is one example, another to get complicated are hermaphrodites when there is an extra genitalia part belonging to another sex, usually they change the gender to the dominant genitals, yet there have been studies that the same person didn't feel like the gender they were assigned... the brain says one thing the body states another... You can't get brain transplant or you will die, the only solution is to undergo hrt and surgery. I have a female brain, but the genitals i am born with is not what I am assigned to be, so the only cure is hrt and surgery if need... I'ts not a complicated thing, but you complicate things when you say were men...

[Ignatuis]

Evon, your problem is that you have an extra chromosome. You silly little retard.

"You can't get a brain transplant or you will die..."
Really? I didn't know brain transplants weren't possible. Are you sure?

You're an idiot regardless if you identify yourself as a man or woman.

[MdR Dave]

You misspelled Ignatius and you missed the middle initial. And based on your repeated actions, you missed the main point of the book.

Fat and slovenly as well, I bet. Live with your mom still, berating her all the while?

You are a one-man Confederacy of Dunces.

Seriously, dude- what kind of damage have you suffered?

[Ignatuis]

You misspelled Ignatius and you missed the middle initial. And based on your repeated actions, you missed the main point of the book.

Fat and slovenly as well, I bet. Live with your mom still, berating her all the while?

You are a one-man Confederacy of Dunces.

Seriously, dude- what kind of damage have you suffered?

Ah...somebody already had Ignatius as their username, so I switched the i and u around. And, Mister Reilly was quite fond of lambasting contemporary entertainment—remember his trips to the movie house and his critique of the teen dancing program? Furthermore, he was also homophobic.

I'm not, nor have I ever been, a homophobe, and I'm not a fat Don Quixote type, who is overeducated, and still lives with his mom.

[Teydyn]

But you seem to be no more then just an angry sockpuppet. Who's hand is up your behind?

[Ignatuis]

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

Just kidding I'm no genius, but my detractors tend to be booger eating spazzes!
And, in all reality, I'm only berating a pseudo intellectual that is under the impression they are smart (Evon).

[KittyPride]

The genderID in my brain is that of a female and this was the case from the moment I was born...
Inside I am a very typical female... If my body would have been correct, I would have been married now and had children and there would be nothing unusual about me.

But since my body developed the wrong way in the womb... I have become a puppeteer.... I do not identify with my body but I live with it (and sometimes around it), and live with the social and sexual conscequences, I changed it, but it will never be perfect and all my friends, family and lovers will have to deal with the fact that I am TS.

Therefor a potential lover will have to love 3 instead of one. The woman I am on the inside... The TS I am on the outside... and the fact that I was born in the body of a boy and was socialised as one in my childhood years.

I can understand Ellery, I also feel that I can never become a woman in this life... (I already was one) and that I have to deal with the fact that I have the body of a male (at least in part).

Also it helps me to identify as a boy, because when it comes down to it... its a matter of faith for other people to believe in your excistence or not... By identifying as male I protect myself from harm, coz its something no one can debate about coz that's a fact.

I dont see why I should let other people mess with the most precious part of every human beeing, the soul. If they dont respect it... sure, I will be a male for you.

A lot of guys and tlovers truely believe we are men... and you try a few times but after a while you just stop defending yourself.
you are not sharing my bed.

[traLika]

I guess at the end of the day everybody just believes what they want to believe, whether it's to do with religion, gender or whatever. So long as they don't try to force those beliefs on everyone else, that's OK in my book.

[Nicole Dupre]

By identifying as male I protect myself from harm, coz its something no one can debate about coz that's a fact.That's all the facts we need to hear to know that you're not a TS.


..If they dont respect it... sure, I will be a male for you.. Then do us all a favor and stfu, dude. lol

[Nicole Dupre]

Of course the guys who love the sissy CDs are gay. They're comfortable being gay. So let them all be gay. Let the gay boys love Kim. Kim accepts that she's a man. Good for her. I mean, I think her wife and her resident fan club are a bunch of freaks, but Kim has to live as Kim; both male and female. That's her choice. If you say you're gay, who am I to argue? Empower yourself. Better to be able to say something than be intimidated out of enjoying your life as you please, as long as you're not hurting anyone. I get the impression that Kim's just a submissive plaything in her wife's online hustle. But so what. They're freaks, god love 'em. lol

And if the TS in the video thinks she's a man, that's wonderful. It's nice to be able to decide something like that without the world telling you so. So more power to her. But it's meaningless to me. I transcend gender and so does she. All TS do if we simply live our lives as women and people treat us as women. If you get clocked, and it hurts? Well, the world's a cruel place. "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya." Good luck.

But trust me on this; regardless of the words being used, we all know what we are. It's up to you all to deal with it or not. There are lots of people here I can't relate to. On many levels, I can't relate to Ericka. On a sexual preference level, I can't relate to Amy. On a moral level, I can't relate to many others. Some hate me, as they probably should. lol It's all good. Trust me. This is all very silly shit. When we wake up and walk out the door, the world let's us know what the score is in life. If you're in the closet, you're not even alive imo. It's you "men" here who have the bigger questions to ask yourself, like "am I gay".

And btw, Kitty isn't living his life as a woman. Not for even a second do I believe Kitty is anything but a closet CD babbling nonsense. I've been to this rodeo before, and "it's a maaaan, baby!" lol

[onmyknees]

Of course the guys who love the sissy CDs are gay. They're comfortable being gay. So let them all be gay. Let the gay boys love Kim. Kim accepts that she's a man. Good for her. I mean, I think her wife and her resident fan club are a bunch of freaks, but Kim has to live as Kim; both male and female. That's her choice. If you say you're gay, who am I to argue? Empower yourself. Better to be able to say something than be intimidated out of enjoying your life as you please, as long as you're not hurting anyone. I get the impression that Kim's just a submissive plaything in her wife's online hustle. But so what. They're freaks, god love 'em. lol

And if the TS in the video thinks she's a man, that's wonderful. It's nice to be able to decide something like that without the world telling you so. So more power to her. But it's meaningless to me. I transcend gender and so does she. All TS do if we simply live our lives as women and people treat us as women. If you get clocked, and it hurts? Well, the world's a cruel place. "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya." Good luck.

But trust me on this; regardless of the words being used, we all know what we are. It's up to you all to deal with it or not. There are lots of people here I can't relate to. On many levels, I can't relate to Ericka. On a sexual preference level, I can't relate to Amy. On a moral level, I can't relate to many others. Some hate me, as they probably should. lol It's all good. Trust me. This is all very silly shit. When we wake up and walk out the door, the world let's us know what the score is in life. If you're in the closet, you're not even alive imo. It's you "men" here who have the bigger questions to ask yourself, like "am I gay".

And btw, Kitty isn't living his life as a woman. Not for even a second do I believe Kitty is anything but a closet CD babbling nonsense. I've been to this rodeo before, and "it's a maaaan, baby!" lol


LOL...Well I don't hate you. Wait ....that's not true....there's days I did hate you, but then again this is only the internet, so it's not genuine hate. LOL. I thought I related for a time, but you're hard to know. My guess is you're far less moody and bi polar IRL. Sometimes you're all over the map with shit, sometimes you lay it out as well as anyone on here. In one post, you're critical of Kim....in another you're content to live and let live. In one post you despise cross dressers, in another you're in love with male runway models posing as females. I think you get off being disliked. I'm no shrink, but you seem to like it when the odds are against you. You're a lot of things ND...but one thing you're not is boring, or predictable. The last week or so I've found your posts far less toxic, and more enjoyable....but I'm sure that will change shortly ! lol

[Nicole Dupre]

LOL...Well I don't hate you. Wait ....that's not true....there's days I did hate you, but then again this is only the internet, so it's not genuine hate. LOL. I thought I related for a time, but you're hard to know. My guess is you're far less moody and bi polar IRL. Sometimes you're all over the map with shit, sometimes you lay it out as well as anyone on here. In one post, you're critical of Kim....in another you're content to live and let live. In one post you despise cross dressers, in another you're in love with male runway models posing as females. I think you get off being disliked. I'm no shrink, but you seem to like it when the odds are against you. You're a lot of things ND...but one thing you're not is boring, or predictable. The last week or so I've found your posts far less toxic, and more enjoyable....but I'm sure that will change shortly ! lol
I'm far more conventional and traditional than you may think. In fact, I can be very boring every once in a while. If you saw me helping my mom cook thanksgiving and Xmas dinner, and bringing my niece and nephews their Xmas gifts, maybe your jaw would drop. I dunno. I mean, I do have a moral compass, unlike many people here. But no. I'm not boring. I hate boredom, and boring people make my skin crawl. Even when I'm in love with a guy, I occasionally need a little unpredictability and some healthy moments of loving friction to test the strength of the relationship. But I'm always me, and I have no regrets. If you want 'boring', you have your pick of the vapid, dumb cunts right here... with all due respect. ;-) lol

[PantyBoy69]

Strange

[Nicole Dupre]

What's strange? A grown man calling himself "pantyboy" and spelling Cincinnati funny?

One thing is true. I can't STAND closet CDs. They're the scum of the earth. They're almost always dangerous weirdos. If I started making a list of closet CDs, who were also known serial killers, it would defy the imagination and probably strike a nerve with a substantial number of members here. We have quite a few homicidal little gorilla-like ballerinas on HA. I can't stand them. But then, I also can't stand the one's who come stumbling out of their closets when they've already gotten married and had kids, and declare themselves as "women trapped in men's bodies". Uggghhh. Scum. You selfish, weak, dickless scum. The damage you do to innocent lives, who should have never known you... Ugghhh. Or even better yet, the ones who were married dads who suddenly get this brainstorm to do shemale porn. Ugggggghhh. Put them all in woodchippers and make them plant food.

[traLika]

LOL! I see you've moved Nicole. Nice location!
Watch out for those alien closet CDs, though... :hide-1:

[Nicole Dupre]

The Annunaki are shameless. They have no closets. The closest they come to hiding is dwelling in our monkey-like DNA. We shameless shemales of Earth, along with cats, are the inheritors of their superior biology. All hail the master race of shemales, vampiric GGs, and felines. Enslave the closet CDs and make pets of the hunks, beefcakes, and cute guys. So it is written. :D

[Ecstatic]

All hail the master race of shemales, vampiric GGs, and felines. Enslave the closet CDs and make pets of the hunks, beefcakes, and cute guys. So it is written. :D

Now that's one helluva credo!

[Nicole Dupre]

Now that's one helluva credo!
Makes perfect sense, to my cat and me anyway. :D lol

[traLika]

The Annunaki are shameless. They have no closets. The closest they come to hiding is dwelling in our monkey-like DNA. We shameless shemales of Earth, along with cats, are the inheritors of their superior biology. All hail the master race of shemales, vampiric GGs, and felines. Enslave the closet CDs and make pets of the hunks, beefcakes, and cute guys. So it is written. :D


Mmmmm, sounds purrrrrrfect, my dearrrrrrr!!!

EDIT: Oops - that didn't sound very masculine. Am I gay?

[onmyknees]

I'm far more conventional and traditional than you may think. In fact, I can be very boring every once in a while. If you saw me helping my mom cook thanksgiving and Xmas dinner, and bringing my niece and nephews their Xmas gifts, maybe your jaw would drop. I dunno. I mean, I do have a moral compass, unlike many people here. But no. I'm not boring. I hate boredom, and boring people make my skin crawl. Even when I'm in love with a guy, I occasionally need a little unpredictability and some healthy moments of loving friction to test the strength of the relationship. But I'm always me, and I have no regrets. If you want 'boring', you have your pick of the vapid, dumb cunts right here... with all due respect. ;-) lol

To be honest.........my jaw would drop, but at the same time I would find it fascinating. lol. It's like when lifelong friends of famous people are interviewed, the inevitably say..."they're really just average people like you and I" Which is probably true. But preparing the stuffing with mom on Thanksgiving? That's a sacred task in most Itilian households...No way....not buying it ..you're Nicole Dupree for christ sakes ! lol
Personally I'm drawn to complicated people...not to be confused with moody. Espicially sexually complicated people. When you say you hate boredom....do you also hate being alone ? Are those two things compatible ? In other words...does simply being alone cause boredom for you?

[Nicole Dupre]

Mmmmm, sounds purrrrrrfect, my dearrrrrrr!!!

EDIT: Oops - that didn't sound very masculine. Am I gay?
No. You're just "happy". Lol

[Nicole Dupre]

To be honest.........my jaw would drop, but at the same time I would find it fascinating. lol. It's like when lifelong friends of famous people are interviewed, the inevitably say..."they're really just average people like you and I" Which is probably true. But preparing the stuffing with mom on Thanksgiving? That's a sacred task in most Itilian households...No way....not buying it ..you're Nicole Dupree for christ sakes ! lol
Personally I'm drawn to complicated people...not to be confused with moody. Espicially sexually complicated people. When you say you hate boredom....do you also hate being alone ? Are those two things compatible ? In other words...does simply being alone cause boredom for you?I like to socialize, but people can also be boring. I tend to gravitate towards artists and musicians, but I definitely need intellectual stimulation of any kind to not get bored. Or at least be witty. A good sense of humor goes a long way with me. When people are dumb and shallow, they put me to sleep.

But I'm really not moody. I'm basically a pretty positive person. And I'm pretty straight forward too. Im totally ok with people disliking me for who I am. But again, I'm not gonna spoonfeed myself to anyone. If people don't get me, that's not my fucking problem. Plenty of people obviously do. So it's all good.

[runningdownthatdream]

The Annunaki are shameless. They have no closets. The closest they come to hiding is dwelling in our monkey-like DNA. We shameless shemales of Earth, along with cats, are the inheritors of their superior biology. All hail the master race of shemales, vampiric GGs, and felines. Enslave the closet CDs and make pets of the hunks, beefcakes, and cute guys. So it is written. :D

Annunaki! Did you read Zecharia Sitchin!?

[Nicole Dupre]

Annunaki! Did you read Zecharia Sitchin!?
No, but I'm pretty familiar with him. I've watched his lectures on YouTube. I rarely read things on these topics anymore tho'. The vids online are too plentiful these days.

And I think it may be spelled Annunaki btw. But it's not like spelling it properly changes the dynamics of anything. The shemales are basically the last leap in the re-evolution of their/our sexy species.

I am from the planet of Hotness, deep within the Sexilicious galaxy. And I am making a pit stop on Uranus. Take me to your leader, earth dude. :party:

[KittyPride]

OH MY GOD I CRAVE A BORING LIFE!!!

I would like a boring house, a boring neigbourhood, a boring job, boring children and a boring husband and id be soooo happy ;)

I am sorth of ehm... done with the "special" "unusual" and I am hunting down genuinely normal people lol.
They are far more unique then the so called "special" one's...

There is nothing cool about being special...:):)

Ive seen so many "special" people and too little normal people... :)


Oh hey Nicole... lol

You told me... Im no TS...
And you are right...

Im a maaaan baby :D
AND Im a loser...

you got it all right... am thankfull for that...

Its very easy to be a loser and a male...
Far easier then always try to live up to something...

Even when you pass, succeed... I dont fucking care... I wll just be happy... but I will always stay grounded and tell myself... you are a male...

Even when a man buys me flowers and holds me in his arms for hours on end...

It does not make a difference..

Im not used to good fortune and it actually stresses me out really bad...
I expect the wrath of whatever God that does not excist any time when I get too happy and things seem to be going too well... usually such a times follows with a bad period...where I am very down and low... so to keep things zen...its best to stay grounded for me, and work my way up...

Advantage...
I dont have to prove myself.
I dont have to prove Im a woman
I dont have to prove Im a winnar...
I dont have to live up to anything
I can just be myself without any stress...
I dont have to trust in the good things in life... cause I really cant, I tried ..

OH and btw... you are waaay too special for me..
Even when you prepare that thanksgiving meal...

I just want tea and pie ... flowers and a silent sunny afternoon and everything just has to be sooooo BORING!!!

Honestly
lol

This whole trying to be special and let's all be special has soooo gotten out of hand lol

Thats why your attitude really does not impress me... Its just nagging and nagging all for the nagging... oooh look at me and my attitude... Im so special bla bla
Be boring, but you really cant unfortunately... lol

[runningdownthatdream]

OH MY GOD I CRAVE A BORING LIFE!!!

I would like a boring house, a boring neigbourhood, a boring job, boring children and a boring husband and id be soooo happy ;)

I am sorth of ehm... done with the "special" "unusual" and I am hunting down genuinely normal people lol.
They are far more unique then the so called "special" one's...

There is nothing cool about being special...:):)

Ive seen so many "special" people and too little normal people... :)


Oh hey Nicole... lol

You told me... Im no TS...
And you are right...

Im a maaaan baby :D
AND Im a loser...

you got it all right... am thankfull for that...

Its very easy to be a loser and a male...
Far easier then always try to live up to something...

Even when you pass, succeed... I dont fucking care... I wll just be happy... but I will always stay grounded and tell myself... you are a male...

Even when a man buys me flowers and holds me in his arms for hours on end...

It does not make a difference..

Im not used to good fortune and it actually stresses me out really bad...
I expect the wrath of whatever God that does not excist any time when I get too happy and things seem to be going too well... usually such a times follows with a bad period...where I am very down and low... so to keep things zen...its best to stay grounded for me, and work my way up...

Advantage...
I dont have to prove myself.
I dont have to prove Im a woman
I dont have to prove Im a winnar...
I dont have to live up to anything
I can just be myself without any stress...
I dont have to trust in the good things in life... cause I really cant, I tried ..

OH and btw... you are waaay too special for me..
Even when you prepare that thanksgiving meal...

I just want tea and pie ... flowers and a silent sunny afternoon and everything just has to be sooooo BORING!!!

Honestly
lol

This whole trying to be special and let's all be special has soooo gotten out of hand lol

Thats why your attitude really does not impress me... Its just nagging and nagging all for the nagging... oooh look at me and my attitude... Im so special bla bla
Be boring, but you really cant unfortunately... lol

Get a grip.......right about now is when some men in white enter stage left and politely slap you back to reality

[igotmacedbymimi:(]

Who cares?

1. Ts women, who are m2f ARE MALE regardless of whatever anyone calls them or whatever they want to think. They have xy chromosome therefore they are born male, you can not change your chromosomes.

2. Recent studies have shown that sex and sexuality can be induced from nature as well as nurture. So being transexual is a condition in the mind, however it can be an actual genetic issue, not because someone says 'hmmm feel like i wanna be a woman now cos i dont make a very good looking buff guy, so might have more luck as a woman.'

3. Ussually people try to become who they feel they are. In ts case they become a woman, transitioning through their life because they feel like they are women. However in my opinion it is to varying degrees. Afterall take for instance sexuality. 95% of women are straight. There is a much higher percentage of transexuals who are not strictly 'straight; (ie into men). So when you look at transexual women as a group, their sexual feelings are very different to genetic born women, however there is another reason for this, possibly because of their xy chromosome, they have testosterone in their body which would alter their sexual feelings and could alter their sexuality as well.

4. Transexual women are treated as 'men' by ignorant members of the public. This young ts probably feels that way considering the area she is from and probably all the derrogatory comments she has recieved in real life. When guys come on here and they idolise the transexuals that they like, they dont seem to fathom the idea that MOST PEOPLE (maybe 80%) of the public think of transexuals as a joke. They dont take them seriously and they will be the butt of jokes. Remember, this forum is not indiciative of the real world. In the real world most transexuals are open to being harrassed and even hurt, assaulted or worse because they 'dont fit in' with society's norm. Most people are not open minded. Which is why the internet and websites like this are a big blessing for teh transexual community because they can bring like minded people together. Without these websites there would probably be a much higher transexual suicide rate, a lot more loneliness and also street prostitution as well.

With this particular young transexual, she has probably recieved all sorts of ridiculous emails and telephone calls from all sorts of ridiculous people. Probably porn comapanies hounding her constantly, to stalkers, to other ts women trying to give her advice or force things on her. It's quite clear that she doesnt want to enter the whole ts porn world but probably feels like it is the only way for her seeing as she doesnt fit in with her real society ie local bars/clubs and college etc. Yet she is a superstar sensation within tranny-land and internet porn jerk off's and prostitutes.

All she wants is to just fit in to her normal town's society. Nice friends, normal boyfriend, go to restaraunts and enjoy a happy and normal life.

If you ask my opinion she made a big mistake putting nude images of herself on the internet. But i think if she can find a nice loving boyfriend, someone who she can enjoy doing normal things with, then she will learn to love life more. xxx

[Nicole Dupre]

OH MY GOD I CRAVE A BORING LIFE!!!

I would like a boring house, a boring neigbourhood, a boring job, boring children and a boring husband and id be soooo happy ;)

I am sorth of ehm... done with the "special" "unusual" and I am hunting down genuinely normal people lol.
They are far more unique then the so called "special" one's...

There is nothing cool about being special...:):)

Ive seen so many "special" people and too little normal people... :)


Oh hey Nicole... lol

You told me... Im no TS...
And you are right...

Im a maaaan baby :D
AND Im a loser...

you got it all right... am thankfull for that...

Its very easy to be a loser and a male...
Far easier then always try to live up to something...

Even when you pass, succeed... I dont fucking care... I wll just be happy... but I will always stay grounded and tell myself... you are a male...

Even when a man buys me flowers and holds me in his arms for hours on end...

It does not make a difference..

Im not used to good fortune and it actually stresses me out really bad...
I expect the wrath of whatever God that does not excist any time when I get too happy and things seem to be going too well... usually such a times follows with a bad period...where I am very down and low... so to keep things zen...its best to stay grounded for me, and work my way up...

Advantage...
I dont have to prove myself.
I dont have to prove Im a woman
I dont have to prove Im a winnar...
I dont have to live up to anything
I can just be myself without any stress...
I dont have to trust in the good things in life... cause I really cant, I tried ..

OH and btw... you are waaay too special for me..
Even when you prepare that thanksgiving meal...

I just want tea and pie ... flowers and a silent sunny afternoon and everything just has to be sooooo BORING!!!

Honestly
lol

This whole trying to be special and let's all be special has soooo gotten out of hand lol

Thats why your attitude really does not impress me... Its just nagging and nagging all for the nagging... oooh look at me and my attitude... Im so special bla bla
Be boring, but you really cant unfortunately... lol
I'm not trying to impress anyone; you least of all. lol You're obviously just very intimidated by me. Which is understandable, if you seriously want to carry on with a bluff this bad for this long. And nagging-shmagging. I'm just telling you, you're a fake. Three little words. And don't be impressed. Please. Because it's not rocket science. However, if anyone's confused enough to not see it? I'm just pointing it out. Sorta like an FYI in regards to one of those Nigerian deceased family member fraud letters. You're preying on the sappy side of human nature.

And btw boredom is always relative. No one likes boredom. So shove it up your testosterone-drenched asshole. You're just such a hopelessly maladjusted freak, what you really need a break from your grandiose closeted misery. You're scary-miserable. And you're miserably jealous of who and what you'll never be; a GG or a well-adjusted TS.

Now run along with your little tea and pie pity-party, you horrible man. I fart in your general direction, and I still look very pretty doing it. :-)

[KittyPride]

Nicole you responded reacted to my.post...
So dont respond then


And nooo im not intimidated....you are irritating...

[KittyPride]

Get a grip.......right about now is when some men in white enter stage left and politely slap you back to reality

Trust me you dont want to know how real my reality is compared to yours...

I woke up..you are still dreaming

[KittyPride]

Oh and nicole...good job getting past your gender therapist...coz you are most certainly a gay narcist...and very probably a psycho sociopath...

Good thing they did not treat you for that...you would become instantly suicidal from just looking in a mirror...

But i dont think its there actually...it never was...just a monster that became monstrous hmm

[Nicole Dupre]

Nicole you responded reacted to my.post...
So dont respond then


And nooo im not intimidated....you are irritating...


lol

You Get Nothing! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ)

[Nicole Dupre]

Oh and nicole...good job getting past your gender therapist...coz you are most certainly a gay narcist...and very probably a psycho sociopath...

Good thing they did not treat you for that...you would become instantly suicidal from just looking in a mirror...

But i dont think its there actually...it never was...just a monster that became monstrous hmm


I see. lol

It's over Johnny. IT'S OVER! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZdY9rw-uo)

[EvonRose]

Evon, your problem is that you have an extra chromosome. You silly little retard.

"You can't get a brain transplant or you will die..."
Really? I didn't know brain transplants weren't possible. Are you sure?

You're an idiot regardless if you identify yourself as a man or woman.

You cannot have a full brain transplant because you would have to disconnect it from the spinal nerve and the cranial nerves... So your answer is no, you can't get a full brain transplant to exchange it for an mans brain... And even if you did partial brain transplant have been proven to lose memory, loss of character, inactivity of some parts of the brains therefore affecting physical activities such as walking, running, talking... And the brain would still be female... Who is the idiot?

[Prospero]

I cannot believe that this thread is still continuing and that bright folk like Evon and Nicole respond to all the stupid trolls on here. Girls - focus on something better.

[KittyPride]

I cannot believe that this thread is still continuing and that bright folk like Evon and Nicole respond to all the stupid trolls on here. Girls - focus on something better.

Something like you?:yayo:

[Nicole Dupre]

I think Kitty-Dude is ready to kill himself. I'm serious. These bad pop psychology analyzations are the biggest jumbled messes of madness I've read on this forum in ages. I can't stand his lies, but maybe we'd better trace his IP address and send the cops and paramedics over to his place just to make sure he's not making a noose or writing an incoherent suicide note. That's all we need, is some dead CD embarrassing us all by letting his corpse rot away and stinking up a neighborhood somewhere. Obviously he has no friends or family.

[werwt22]

Read my sig. End of story

[werwt22]

Oh shit that was on the old forum LOL. Anyways, "Reality is perception"

[Ignatuis]

You cannot have a full brain transplant because you would have to disconnect it from the spinal nerve and the cranial nerves... So your answer is no, you can't get a full brain transplant to exchange it for an mans brain... And even if you did partial brain transplant have been proven to lose memory, loss of character, inactivity of some parts of the brains therefore affecting physical activities such as walking, running, talking... And the brain would still be female... Who is the idiot?

"Who is the idiot?"

Ahh...you! It was obvious to anyone with a semblance of intelligence that I used sarcasm to point out your stupidity. Of course brain transplants are impossible, or you would have swapped yours with something way smarter...like a cow!

[Odelay]

"Who is the idiot?"

Ahh...you! It was obvious to anyone with a semblance of intelligence that I used sarcasm to point out your stupidity. Of course brain transplants are impossible, or you would have swapped yours with something way smarter...like a cow!

Use of sarcasm! Brilliant, I say, old chap. Simply brilliant!