Natural

[postopadmirer]

I read the term "natural" a lot in these forums.


What is natural?


I don't think we all mean the same thing. If we are honest with ourselves --very little of this is "physically or medically" natural. Much of it is nature being coaxed in a given direction. Coaxed like a gardener coaxes his trees by pruning them. The result look natural, but in reality it was not what the tree was going to do "naturally"


Don't get me wrong I LOVE THE RESULTS, and I DON'T QUESTION THE WOMEN'S FEELING OR MOTIVES AT ALL, but let's not kid ourselves to much.
Girls keep it up and thanks for contributing to this forum!


When I think natural for example in breast development, here is what I think of: http://www.afraidtoask.com/breast/breastdevelopement.html


So if I said that girl has natural beasts I'm thinking one of the middle Tanner stages.



Thoughts?
POA

[postopadmirer]

I feel the need to clarify further.

If I take hormones or get castrated what happens to my body next will be a natural result, but it was started in an artificial way. So then what is natural?

[SammiValentine]

Eating lots of pies, drinking beer and getting MOOBS.

[Bishounen]

Well, no matter what a transitioner thinks her or himself about the process, but as soon as plastic surgery is involved, then it is technically not "natural" anymore.

I know that some people that have done a heck load of plastic surgery refers to themselves as "natural" only because they have not gone "over the top" with the surgery and do not look artificial, although they are in actuality not meaning "natural" but natural looking, which is something totally different.

[Quiet Reflections]

I read the term "natural" a lot in these forums.


What is natural?


I don't think we all mean the same thing. If we are honest with ourselves --very little of this is "physically or medically" natural. Much of it is nature being coaxed in a given direction. Coaxed like a gardener coaxes his trees by pruning them. The result look natural, but in reality it was not what the tree was going to do "naturally"


Don't get me wrong I LOVE THE RESULTS, and I DON'T QUESTION THE WOMEN'S FEELING OR MOTIVES AT ALL, but let's not kid ourselves to much.
Girls keep it up and thanks for contributing to this forum!


When I think natural for example in breast development, here is what I think of: http://www.afraidtoask.com/breast/breastdevelopement.html


So if I said that girl has natural beasts I'm thinking one of the middle Tanner stages.



Thoughts?
POA
Without plastic surgery

[postopadmirer]

Without plastic surgery



Without ANY surgery or just not LOOKING like any surgery?

[EvonRose]

Without plastic surgery, but technically sex change is not considered plastic surgery it's more of reconstuctive, natural beauty in any sense is the no alteration to the face since beauty is predominantly described in the face, but to be "all" is having no surgery at all... I am guilty of having a breast augmentation, but i first got them to be a small c, then just when i thought hormones did its job, my breast got bigger in two years span now I'm a 32dd... I wanted to take it out, but i am not gonna go trough another surgery.

People consider me natural looking or natural beauty, but i am not "all natural" makes sense? lol...

[MrsKellyPierce]

Sometimes girls mean au natural - meaning no make up

[PeePeeLover]

Don't take them out Evon. They look and feel great. No need to mess with perfection :)

[RallyCola]

natural means NO surgical alteration or enhancement other than potentially castration or full GRS.

Though technically incorrect, natural usually means that hormones are ok.

i'll give you concrete examples

1: natural: hazel tucker is a hormone only girl or perhaps a crossdresser type like jamie markham would be considered natural (though by all accounts, jamie is a boy in a dress)

2: so-called natural: jesse flores has claimed to be natural and only had implants...jesse isn't on hormones...so while her claim is that she naturally looks like a girl (facially) her implants disqualify her based on the what everyone else says "natural" means

3: surgically altered tgirls: domino, bj, libby, etc....i.e. girls that have had plastic surgery (boobs, butt implants, facial feminization, trach shave, etc). BUT there is another special category reserved for a select few

4: the WTF girls or girls that are caricature of normal people...you know, the ones that visited the same silly putty doctors michael jackson went to.

there has been a rash of crossdressers claiming to be "natural" TS but they aren't...many are simply just fem looking guys that dress up. Without hormones or surgery, you really aren't in transition. They may fit under the umbrella term of "Transgendered" because that is the most broad term to classify any individual who feels their outward gender does not match their genetic sex and takes any step to alter it, but the male stops being a man and becomes a girl/woman when they begin to express secondary sex characteristics associated with femininity. Short of that, dressing up doesn't count.

[Porcelain Boykins]

All my pictures i put on here all natural no surgery no photo edit no makeup!

[RallyCola]

All my pictures i put on here all natural no surgery no photo edit no makeup!

and that aspect is highly appreciated. you are a cutie!

[Quiet Reflections]

1: natural: hazel tucker is a hormone only girl or perhaps a crossdresser type like jamie markham would be considered natural (though by all accounts, jamie is a boy in a dress)


Jamie doesn't even cross dress anymore he is a gay porn star now

[Quiet Reflections]

Without ANY surgery or just not LOOKING like any surgery?
I would say without any at all.

[Mayrah]

natural means NO surgical alteration or enhancement other than potentially castration or full GRS.

Though technically incorrect, natural usually means that hormones are ok.

i'll give you concrete examples

1: natural: hazel tucker is a hormone only girl or perhaps a crossdresser type like jamie markham would be considered natural (though by all accounts, jamie is a boy in a dress)

2: so-called natural: jesse flores has claimed to be natural and only had implants...jesse isn't on hormones...so while her claim is that she naturally looks like a girl (facially) her implants disqualify her based on the what everyone else says "natural" means

3: surgically altered tgirls: domino, bj, libby, etc....i.e. girls that have had plastic surgery (boobs, butt implants, facial feminization, trach shave, etc). BUT there is another special category reserved for a select few

4: the WTF girls or girls that are caricature of normal people...you know, the ones that visited the same silly putty doctors michael jackson went to.

there has been a rash of crossdressers claiming to be "natural" TS but they aren't...many are simply just fem looking guys that dress up. Without hormones or surgery, you really aren't in transition. They may fit under the umbrella term of "Transgendered" because that is the most broad term to classify any individual who feels their outward gender does not match their genetic sex and takes any step to alter it, but the male stops being a man and becomes a girl/woman when they begin to express secondary sex characteristics associated with femininity. Short of that, dressing up doesn't count.

Your transistion starts the moment you decide to live as a women, not when you take drugs or have surgery. Hence the difference between transsexuals and tranvestites.

[tsmandy]

I think its totally subjective. I've had an orchiectomy and a trach shave, people still refer to me as natural.

[RallyCola]

I think its totally subjective. I've had an orchiectomy and a trach shave, people still refer to me as natural.

like everything, there is a grey area. perhaps cosmetic enhancement is better than just saying surgery.

[RallyCola]

Your transistion starts the moment you decide to live as a women, not when you take drugs or have surgery. Hence the difference between transsexuals and tranvestites.

i agree that there is a difference between transvestites (just crossdressers that are a bit more serious really) and "transsexuals" (the word is really incorrect but that's a different topic) but when that change over occurs is really debatable.

living as a woman may be the start of something but it isn't really a transition. transition is more than dressing up and acting differently than your genetic sex determines. a person may feel like they are in transition but the level of commitment makes me question why they have at least not started a hormone regimine. by your standards, i could transition to being a chinese person by calling myself Hop Sing, squinting, using a bowl to cut my hair, yelling when i talk , cooking smelly food and eating with chop sticks and driving badly. Transitioning from one gender to another is a bit more than just lifestyle changes and attire.

[Mayrah]

i agree that there is a difference between transvestites (just crossdressers that are a bit more serious really) and "transsexuals" (the word is really incorrect but that's a different topic) but when that change over occurs is really debatable.

living as a woman may be the start of something but it isn't really a transition. transition is more than dressing up and acting differently than your genetic sex determines. a person may feel like they are in transition but the level of commitment makes me question why they have at least not started a hormone regimine. by your standards, i could transition to being a chinese person by calling myself Hop Sing, squinting, using a bowl to cut my hair, yelling when i talk , cooking smelly food and eating with chop sticks and driving badly. Transitioning from one gender to another is a bit more than just lifestyle changes and attire.

Thats why i said thats where it starts. How that person starts can be from being a 10 year drag queen veteran or a 2 week old CD'er. Once the person decides to be who she is from the inside its the start of the transistion and the beginning of the long tough road ahead.

If you go to a genderteam and you get to the RLE phase, thats when you start a hormone regimine. Getting there took me 11 months of talking to shrinks, and that was only 6 appointments.

[RallyCola]

Thats why i said thats where it starts. How that person starts can be from being a 10 year drag queen veteran or a 2 week old CD'er. Once the person decides to be who she is from the inside its the start of the transistion and the beginning of the long tough road ahead.

If you go to a genderteam and you get to the RLE phase, thats when you start a hormone regimine. Getting there took me 11 months of talking to shrinks, and that was only 6 appointments.

you are right...but for many tgirls that i know...that's not the route they went. the first tgirl that i was ever with was taking horse derived premarin she was buying from a guy in mexico illegally. not all tgirls do things the "so-called legal way" with the "right" guidance.

i am using " there because i think RLE and the "treatment" of gender dsyphoria is all bullshit. I don't think it should be included in the DSM because its NOT a disorder. And I am appalled at the need for RLE or psychotherapy before surgery is PERMITTED.

[postopadmirer]

I think its totally subjective. I've had an orchiectomy and a trach shave, people still refer to me as natural.


I realized almost as soon as I hit submit that from the protective of most here, there is not much difference between "looking" surgically natural, and being non-surgically natural. Only those who go under the knife, or are friends or loved ones of some one who does will know unless the results are dramatic (good or bad).

Tsmandy,
Thanks for the real life prospective.
POA

[RallyCola]

I realized almost as soon as I hit submit that from the protective of most here, there is not much difference between "looking" surgically natural, and being non-surgically natural. Only those who go under the knife, or are friends or loved ones of some one who does will know unless the results are dramatic (good or bad).

Tsmandy,
Thanks for the real life prospective.
POA

huh?

the results of a surgery or what a girl likes like post any procedure are irrelevant. "natural" is used to define girls without plastic surgery..which almost always means implants or facial fem surgery. castration, last time i checked is NOT plastic surgery.

also, if you can't tell if a tgirl has had surgery or not, you are smokin some good shit. surgically altered girls are obvious because they don't look like they used to when they were men or were just on hormones.

[Yvonne183]

I wonder if these genetic women would be considered "natural" by the standards of this forum?

A woman who needs skin grafts on her face cause of burns she received from being in a fire.
A woman who has facial hair and needs electrolysis to remove these hairs, don't forget,, the hairs on her face are her natural self.

A woman born with a bone deformity in her face and gets surgery to correct these deformities.
Or let's say any person who might be born with an extra finger or even Siamese twins,maybe even a blind person who gets surgery so they can see,, if they get surgery then aren't they going against their 'natural born" ways.

Same goes for a transsexual,, most ts's believe that having a male gender is a deformity and needs to be corrected with surgery.

But what I think is meant by "natural" is just someone who doesn't wear make-up, just someone with an everyday sort of look. And even that is up for debate.

[RallyCola]

I wonder if these genetic women would be considered "natural" by the standards of this forum?

A woman who needs skin grafts on her face cause of burns she received from being in a fire.
A woman who has facial hair and needs electrolysis to remove these hairs, don't forget,, the hairs on her face are her natural self.

A woman born with a bone deformity in her face and gets surgery to correct these deformities.
Or let's say any person who might be born with an extra finger or even Siamese twins,maybe even a blind person who gets surgery so they can see,, if they get surgery then aren't they going against their 'natural born" ways.

Same goes for a transsexual,, most ts's believe that having a male gender is a deformity and needs to be corrected with surgery.

But what I think is meant by "natural" is just someone who doesn't wear make-up, just someone with an everyday sort of look. And even that is up for debate.

excellent points...let's just break it down to what "natural" really means in the transgendered world...we are all sorta beating around the bush so to speak here.

natural means obviously more boyish to androgynous...flat chested or tiny boobs. that's it. we can talk in circles all we want but you never really hear any talk of "natural" or not until a girl gets boob implants or contemplates them. lip injections, nose jobs, etc...whatever...its usually about boobs. some guys just like their tgirls to look hot because of attire/makeup but like a pre-pubescent boy look when naked. let's just call it what it is.

[Yvonne183]

excellent points...let's just break it down to what "natural" really means in the transgendered world...we are all sorta beating around the bush so to speak here.

natural means obviously more boyish to androgynous...flat chested or tiny boobs. that's it. we can talk in circles all we want but you never really hear any talk of "natural" or not until a girl gets boob implants or contemplates them. lip injections, nose jobs, etc...whatever...its usually about boobs. some guys just like their tgirls to look hot because of attire/makeup but like a pre-pubescent boy look when naked. let's just call it what it is.

Yea, What you say is what I kinda thought what "natural" would mean on this forum.

[RallyCola]

Yea, What you say is what I kinda thought what "natural" would mean on this forum.

yeah...people get so entrenched in terminology, justification and rationalization that we need to define these things.

most transgendered admirers would never say they like girls that look like pre-pubescent boys, but saying they like "natural" girls makes the same point but it would offend their delicate definition of their own sexuality.

transgendered ADMIRERS need to get over themselves and definitions and categories and just be and like the girls you like...and if in their transition, a tgirl escort or porn star changes something you don't like, find another to fantasize about.

it is as you say Yvonne...though I speak out against gender dysphoria being a real disorder...it is as much a tgirl's prerogative to achieve the outward appearance she desires without admirers labels.

[Wendy Summers]

I feel the need to clarify further.

If I take hormones or get castrated what happens to my body next will be a natural result, but it was started in an artificial way. So then what is natural?

See but even this is tricky. My breasts developed at puberty - but by the same token the reason they developed due to being exposed to hormones I shouldn't have in the womb. Biology isn't so clean and neat

[RallyCola]

http://www.grooby.com/promo/kimberlyfoxx1036.jpg

steven posted this image on one of his promo threads.

this is what many on this site and many tgirl admirers would call a natural beauty. i do not know this person. i have no idea where they are mentally and emotionally in their transition but in terms of PORN, this is a pretty boy. I am not saying the boobs make a woman...but what I am saying that the idea of "natural" is just a way for some guys to justify being turned on by images such as this because other than having a somewhat androgynous face and wearing female attire, there is nothing feminine here.

[RallyCola]

See but even this is tricky. My breasts developed at puberty - but by the same token the reason they developed due to being exposed to hormones I shouldn't have in the womb. Biology isn't so clean and neat

AND THAT'S THE POINT.

for a transgendered girl, there is no debate over what is natural and what isn't natural because for your girls, your genetic sex does not match your psychological gender. Biologically (physically that is) and emotionally, you are striving to fix that. You (tgirls) have to make the choice to repress the biological injustice or fix it however you can...hormones, some surgery, full GRS, etc.

Your admirers are the ones with the problem...most unable to really understand or are too afraid or state reasons for what they like, why they like it and therein lies all these types of debates over terminology or even at times what exactly it mean to be feminine.

you all must realize that tgirls never debate sexuality the way their admirers do.

[SXFX]

Judas, drop the $5k get a nice set of tits and enjoy life....god who cares!
As long as you feel as good as you look ask me if i give a flaying pile of cow shit!
Just don't do the big ass thing....ghetto booty is just nasty!

[Ineeda SM]

nat·u·ral   /ˈnætʃərəl, ˈnætʃrəl/ [nach-er-uhl, nach-ruhl]
adjective
1. existing in or formed by nature ( opposed to artificial).
2. based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.
3. of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.
4. of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.
5. in a state of nature; uncultivated.

The word "Natural" means real and not artificially created. Hormone induced breasts are natural because they grew naturally. Your own body grew the glands and fatty tissue that makes up a real breast, in the same manor that a GG breast grows. Drugs may be involved, but your body did the work. Silicone implants are not natural. The are man made devices implanted into a naturally developed body. Silicone injections anywhere is not natural. It was not grown naturally by your body.

NOW! LOOKING natural is another story. Looking natural means that a breast or any body part can be artificially created or enhanced, but done in a way that LOOKS natural. Meaning you can not tell that the artificial creation is indeed artificial. If a breast enhancement is shaped and sized properly, it will LOOK natural. If Silicone or fat injections are done properly, they too can appear to be natural.

Natural is always the best choice. Even if it is not what some may find attractive. Mainly because it is the real you, and there is no health risk. Implants and injections can pose serious health problems, and they can make you look artificial. Which is usually not very attractive.

End of lesson.

[RallyCola]

nat·u·ral   /ˈnætʃərəl, ˈnætʃrəl/ [nach-er-uhl, nach-ruhl]
adjective
1. existing in or formed by nature ( opposed to artificial).
2. based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.
3. of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.
4. of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.
5. in a state of nature; uncultivated.

The word "Natural" means real and not artificially created. Hormone induced breasts are natural because they grew naturally. Your own body grew the glands and fatty tissue that makes up a real breast, in the same manor that a GG breast grows. Drugs may be involved, but your body did the work. Silicone implants are not natural. The are man made devices implanted into a naturally developed body. Silicone injections anywhere is not natural. It was not grown naturally by your body.

NOW! LOOKING natural is another story. Looking natural means that a breast or any body part can be artificially created or enhanced, but done in a way that LOOKS natural. Meaning you can not tell that the artificial creation is indeed artificial. If a breast enhancement is shaped and sized properly, it will LOOK natural. If Silicone or fat injections are done properly, they too can appear to be natural.

Natural is always the best choice. Even if it is not what some may find attractive. Mainly because it is the real you, and there is no health risk. Implants and injections can pose serious health problems, and they can make you look artificial. Which is usually not very attractive.

End of lesson.

so...baseball players should be able to juice because its their muscles have a natural reaction to increase in size to something that have ingested/injected.

the hormones that are taken are not naturally occurring, they are prescribed or bought. stop justifying.

[Ineeda SM]

so...baseball players should be able to juice because its their muscles have a natural reaction to increase in size to something that have ingested/injected.

the hormones that are taken are not naturally occurring, they are prescribed or bought. stop justifying.

It is Baseball that has ruled it illegal for ethics reasons only. But sports players are not taking a natural hormone. They are taking man made chemicals called steroids. They not only enhance muscles, they damage brain cells and can kill you. That just might be why they are illegal.

Actually hormones are a natural substance. They are extracted from living sources, and not man made chemicals. Many GG that have health issues take female hormones to help their bodies to be normally female. Just as men take male hormones for different health problems.

Everyone has male and female hormones in them. The hormone that has the majority determines the gender. If a male takes female hormones, their own physiology will begin to transform certain body cells to become female in appearance and actuality. Hormones do not grow body parts. They only assist your own physiology to grow natural tissue that grows by itself.

A TS with natural breasts, do not have a magical chemical inside of them that just looks like tits. Her breasts are real breast tissue with mammary glands and fatty breasts tissue. They are real breasts and grown naturally from her own physiology.

Don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself or ask a doctor.

[EvonRose]

so...baseball players should be able to juice because its their muscles have a natural reaction to increase in size to something that have ingested/injected.

the hormones that are taken are not naturally occurring, they are prescribed or bought. stop justifying.

No, this is my input on this matter... There are still unnatural occurring things in the natural world, such as birth defects. Children born with 3 arms, children born with two heads, etc being born with an xx brain inside an xy body falls under this category... taking hormones for the body to match what the brain develops as is medical treatment, not necessary surgical alteration. Hormones are a natural occurring substance we have to take medically, if a ts does not take hormones they are not women because they are not interested in a full transition. it is a proven fact taking hormones does affect the mental state and development of a ts woman, it not just physical.

[Bishounen]

http://www.grooby.com/promo/kimberlyfoxx1036.jpg

steven posted this image on one of his promo threads.

this is what many on this site and many tgirl admirers would call a natural beauty. i do not know this person. i have no idea where they are mentally and emotionally in their transition but in terms of PORN, this is a pretty boy. I am not saying the boobs make a woman...but what I am saying that the idea of "natural" is just a way for some guys to justify being turned on by images such as this because other than having a somewhat androgynous face and wearing female attire, there is nothing feminine here.


Funny, because all I personally register from that pick, is "chick", as the persons "Aura" and not the least, the body and facial language, signals "Female".
Whether the person then is an actual transsexual or an Intergender, a Genderqueer, an Androgyne or what else, only the model knows, but the semi-permanent nails reveals that whatever the person are, S/he is living 24/7 in 'hirs' identity.

And if boobs makes a woman, then bio-females that do not develop breasts during puberty are not women either, by that reasoning, no matter how female they feel.

To be honest, I find this all too common reasoning that a TG got to have breasts to be a girl/a TG, ridiculous, as it seems more as a fetishistic rule in porn rather than a fact true to real life and not the least, Psychology.

I also disagree strongly about the generalisation about why all Admirers finds someone of this status "Natural", as true Admirers generally do not care much about the actual anatomy, which, on the other hand, the Trannychaser does, but rather the "aura" of the T-subject in question. Although there are ofcourse also Admirers that are fixated on the physical apparence aswell.

I am not an Admirer personally, and neither a Trannychaser, but do know how they tick.
Again, the bottom line with Admirers, is that they, contrary to the Trannychaser, are attracted to the femininity and the "concept" of the transitioner(Or the masculinity, if the trans is a Trans-guy), instead of the actual body with the male genitals, as a chaser is.
An actual admirer would hence only see the "Beauty" in a pic like the attached one, and not the actual Bio-Sex or secondary sex charactaristics in it, such as breasts or no breasts, male body build or no male body build, etc, if that makes sense.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether a TG is natural or hyper-plastic, as A: the TG will nonetheless be unnatural the moment she uses the least amount of makeup or do something with the hair, and B: When I become interested in someone, I do not become interested in the person because of the pec size, whether cis-male, cis-female, trans-male or trans-female or inbetween, but because of the overall apparence, looks, personality and "ways".

[loveboof]

When people say 'natural', they usually just mean a natural look (the appearance of being natural).

So a tgirl on hormones with a reasonably sized boob job can still be 'natural'. It is the same with make-up styles: natural doesn't mean nothing, it refers to the look.

It's not really that complicated...

[postopadmirer]

So I see a distribution of what people mean by natural. Everything from a long hair guy in drag, to a girl with hormones and boob job or even srs as long as it does not go "to far". And that is where the separation is there seem to be four clumps if opinions.
1 Add nothing period.
2 add what you want as long as it is not surgery.
3 add what you want including surgery, just don't make it look like surgery.
4 same as 3 or more as long as the girl still looks pretty/cute.




I'm not going to ask what constitutes pretty.


POA

[postopadmirer]

Thanks all for your comments.