Puzzled...

[GroobySteven]

How a progressive country like the USA can be so backwards thinking in the abortion issue, politics aside...other countries have religion yet don't have these problems. I'm just puzzled why so many people in this country, consistently are campaigning against the right for a woman to have an abortion.
seanchai
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060123/hl_nm/abortion_bush_dc_2;_ylt=AvbMnJYXUucn4c8CBS1HhpyB_Y EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[joyboy123]

How a progressive country like the USA can be so backwards thinking in the abortion issue, politics aside...other countries have religion yet don't have these problems. I'm just puzzled why so many people in this country, consistently are campaigning against the right for a woman to have an abortion.
seanchai
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060123/hl_nm/abortion_bush_dc_2;_ylt=AvbMnJYXUucn4c8CBS1HhpyB_Y EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Thats a very, very good question. The USA is a country full of strange contradictions.

[The American Nightmare]

I don't think there's necessarily a religious connection here. Sure, there are plenty of spiritual reasons to oppose abortion. However, the basic tenet of opposition, that life begins at conception, does not need a religious point of view to remain tact.

Abortion is one of the issues that, no matter what side of the argument you are on, if you are reasonable, you should be able to see that the other side has merit.

Gay marriage, on the other hand...

[slinky]

How a progressive country like the USA can be so backwards thinking in the abortion issue, politics aside...other countries have religion yet don't have these problems.

I have to disagree. The countries which are heavily dominated by "a certain religon" have even more hangups than the US (take the DR for example).

[BlackAdder]

Disagree as well..countries with little to no institutionalized religion have few hangups or blue laws.

[GroobySteven]

Spain, Italy, Brazil?
You don't get any more Catholic than those countries (apart from Ireland whose laws are so punitive, I remember a poor, young teen girl who was raped had to be smuggled out of the country to get an abortion).
My point is more to do with the question, why is a country like the US so polarised on this or so anti-abortion when so many more countries are more progressive on this issue?

seanchai

[hwbs]

yeah its out of control some of the agendas and policies here....i know all too well about it since i have someone in my family that was one of the founding members of project rachel...

[kennbo]

It's all about the use of metaphysical subtleties by the power hungry to gain and maintain power. Huh, you ask? I know, I know, metaphysics, what's that, right? Let me try to give as brief an explaination as I can. Aristotle, for instance, would talk about a red table. Simple, right, just a red table. He would then procede to parse out what it means to be a red table. By the time all was said and done, your brain would be so fried by his arguements about what a red table really is you would start to think you were a red table. Abortion is similar in that an arguement is made about the meaning of life, or more specifically, about when life begins. What does it mean to be a fertilized egg, or a blastocyst, or a morula, or a 2 month old fetus versus a 5 month old fetus or a 5 year old child? Most people don't have an educational background in biology and embryology, so they are easily lead down a metaphysical path where life is defined for them, just like a red table ends up being defined by Aristotle. Not quite, as Aristotle doesn't really come to a conclusion, but then again, Aristotle wasn't trying to have power over red tables. Politicians and preachers want power, which in a democracy, is derived from the people. If you can define what it means to be a person, you have essentially come into posession of that person. You have set the terms and conditions of what it means to be that person. As in any contract, when you set the terms and conditions, you have the advantage. As far as why the American people are polarized by this, its because the powers that be are fighting over what terms and conditions will ultimately define who they are. On one side, the religious types want to remain in that hazzy metaphysical realm, where magical thinking and complex unknowable concepts define reality. That gives the leaders of those religions tremendous power because they end up defining those concepts. On the other side is objective reality, which any enlightened individual can possess through a process of self edification and the application of reason. The latter gives power to the people, the former gives power to others to wield over the people.

[Vicki Richter]

Maybe it is because so many women use it as birth control. Some of these girls are getting four, five, ... abortions. At some point it becomes not the right thing. Also, I do believe that under age girls should be required to get a parents permission or buy in since it is a potentially psychologically damaging decision. If you don't think it is, you should talk to some of these girls who have had abortions.

In the scenario you gave with the rape, in the scenario of life threatening to the mother, when the baby would clearly be deformed or mentally handicapped, and perhaps, to a lesser extent, as birth control, I think it is fine... but there could be room for some regulation of the overall process IMHO. There are just too many couples who want to adopt a young healthy baby. I know people spending $40k to adopt kids from overseas because it is so hard to do so here.

What bugs me about it is that it comes up every fucking year in elections when the law is already passed. I mean get over it. Stop bringing it up all the time just to politic. I realize that you have to be flexible with laws because they don't always make sense... but to have a law that was just made debated year after year... That is ignorant.

V

[chefmike]

It is being brought up by bush (karl rove really, who does all his thinking for him) for the same reason that the gay marriage amendment was put on so many state ballots last election. The repugs know it will whip the bible-bangers into a frenzy, because as religious fanatics, this issue and ones like gay marriage decide their vote.

And it is also being brought up by bush because he believes ridiculous things like jesus speaking to him...and bible-bangers like shrubya want to overturn roe v wade, which is why he nominated alito for supreme court justice. The kind of speech shrubya just gave gives encouragement to the kind of fanatics who blow up abortion clinics.

[Vicki Richter]

It is being brought up by bush (karl rove really, who does all his thinking for him) for the same reason that the gay marriage amendment was put on so many state ballots last election. The repugs know it will whip the bible-bangers into a frenzy, because as religious fanatics, this issue and ones like gay marriage decide their vote.

And it is also being brought up by bush because he believes ridiculous things like jesus speaking to him...and bible-bangers like shrubya want to overturn roe v wade, which is why he nominated alito for supreme court justice. The kind of speech shrubya just gave gives encouragement to the kind of fanatics who blow up abortion clinics.

I'm impressed with the increased level of maturity in your posts since we had our "personal attack" blow up several weeks ago. I mean I don't have to agree with you, but at least you aren't name calling when you get a dissenting viewpoint.

[chefmike]

As I am impressed by your semi-improved attitude, and I have always acknowledged your wit, however catty it was, so don't patronize me, luv...and don't act like you aren't known for being hateful and vindictive on this board when it suits your purposes...

kisses...

Michael

[The American Nightmare]

Also, I do believe that under age girls should be required to get a parents permission or buy in since it is a potentially psychologically damaging decision.
Yes, but an underage girl going through the pregnancy can also be traumatizing, whether she keeps the child or gives it up for adoption.

[flabbybody]

laws are written by men, and no man ever got pregnant.

it's always mystified me that people who oppose a woman's right to abortion are labeled "pro-life".

Go ahead and make abortion illegal. Good Christian American women with money will always be able to go to Toronto and Europe for safe, legal abortions. What happens to the working class poor? They're doomed to illegal operators, the so-called back-alley abortionists. It was happening in every big city in the USA before Roe vs Wade. Thousands of woman being maimed and killed by quasi physicians and nurses. Even dentists were doing them.

Shouldn't the people who oppose a woman's right to a safe legal abortion be labeled "pro-death"?

[Ecstatic]

Outstanding argument, kennbo! Best treatment of Aristotle and the "red table" I've seen in ages.

[Felicia Katt]

however catty it was,

hey, there is only one Katt on here!! no one ever says I am being Richtery!!! LOL

Meow

FK

[brickcitybrother]

How a progressive country like the USA can be so backwards thinking in the abortion issue, politics aside...other countries have religion yet don't have these problems. I'm just puzzled why so many people in this country, consistently are campaigning against the right for a woman to have an abortion.
seanchai
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060123/hl_nm/abortion_bush_dc_2;_ylt=AvbMnJYXUucn4c8CBS1HhpyB_Y EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

My only question is ... You think the USA is a progressive country?

Between the abortion mess

Corporate Welfare

Secret Courts

Domestic Spying

Elections not decided by the people (but either by court decisions or worse)

Rampant Racism

Rampant Sexism

I mean you may be right and I may be crazy (but I don't think so)


And I still love this country and wouldn't live anywhere else.

[Vicki Richter]

I think domestic spying is a good thing. If you don't have anything to hide, then why is it a big deal if you are spied on by the government? Did anyone see that movie Dirty Bomb? Domestic spying could stop things like that.

Chef... I'm never hateful or vindictive... I only defend myself. It is really that simple.

[slinky]

My only question is ... You think the USA is a progressive country?

No.

Compare it to the really progressive countries like most of the Scandanavians.

[Jamie Michelle]

How a progressive country like the USA can be so backwards thinking in the abortion issue, politics aside...other countries have religion yet don't have these problems. I'm just puzzled why so many people in this country, consistently are campaigning against the right for a woman to have an abortion.
seanchai
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060123/hl_nm/abortion_bush_dc_2;_ylt=AvbMnJYXUucn4c8CBS1HhpyB_Y EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Brotherhood of Death (a.k.a. the Order of Skull & Bones) and Bohemian Grove devil-worshipping and queerer than a three-dollar bill Bush, Jr. doesn't give a shit about unborn babies being aborted. This is just more pap for the rubes in TV Land to eat up, just like Yankee from New Haven, Connecticut Bush, Jr.'s phoney Texan act and phoney Texas accent. Bush, Jr. is as Texan as New England clam chowder.

For the proper view on abortion, see the below book chapter:

The Ethics of Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard, Chapter 14: "Children and Rights":

http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fourteen.asp

In short, since a person properly owns their own body, they have the absolute right to do with it what they will, including evicting any unwanted organism, even if that organism is a human being and the eviction results in death.

[Jamie Michelle]

I think domestic spying is a good thing. If you don't have anything to hide, then why is it a big deal if you are spied on by the government? Did anyone see that movie Dirty Bomb? Domestic spying could stop things like that.

Chef... I'm never hateful or vindictive... I only defend myself. It is really that simple.

The government doesn't spy on you to protect you from terrorism, since it's the government which intentionally manufactures terrorism in order to obtain more funding, power, and control. Rather, the government spies on you (i.e., on the masses) to protect itself *from* you (i.e., from the masses rising up against the ruling elite). Terrorism is simply an ancient tool used by governments throughout history to keep their subject populations in line.

More than four times the amount of non-combatants have been systematically murdered for purely ideological reasons by their own governments within the past century than were killed in that same time-span from wars. From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 of its own Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians. Communist governments have murdered over 110 million of their own subjects since 1917. And Germany committed genocide against some 16 million people--6 million of them Jews. (The preceding figures are from Prof. Rudolph Joseph Rummel's website at http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/ .) Over 800,000 Christian Tutsis in Rwanda were hacked to death with machetes between April and July of 1994 by the Hutu-led military force after the Tutsis had been disarmed by governmental decree in the early 1990s, of which disarmament decree the United Nations helped to enforce. On several occasions, United Nations soldiers stationed in Rwanda actually handed over helpless Tutsi Christians under their protection to members of the Hutu military. They then stood by as their screaming charges were unceremoniously hacked to pieces. This massacre happened one year after the United Nations helped to put in a national ID card in Rwanda, and it was that very national ID card system which the Hutus used to track-down and identify the Christian Tutsis. Needless to say, all of the subject populations of the above mass murders had been disarmed beforehand.

All totaled, neither the private-sector crime which government is largely responsible for promoting and causing or even the wars committed by governments upon the subjects of other governments come anywhere close to the crimes government is directly responsible for committing against its own citizens--certainly not in amount of numbers. Without a doubt, the most dangerous presence to ever exist throughout history has always been the people's very own government.

That, Vicki Richter, is why it is "a big deal if you are spied on by the government." Having the government spy on you would be akin to letting Jeffrey Dahmer spy on you, expect far worse, as no Jeffrey Dahmer-type serial killer has ever been able to rack up anywhere near the amount of murders that governments have against their own populations. At most, a Jeffrey Dahmer-type serial killer can only murder about a hundred people--and that's at the very high end of the scale. Whereas governments have been able to murderously slaughter many tens of millions of their own non-combatant populations for purely ideological reasons just within the past century.

For more on the above, see the below articles written by me:

"Documentation on Government-Staged Terrorism," September 30, 2005:

http://www.armleg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2&mforum=libertyandtruth

The below two articles by me (published under my legal name) were originally published at Anti-State.com:

"Government Causes the Crime" by James Redford, c. October 2001:

http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/govcause.html

I should mention one thing about the above article by me which might be confusing nowadays. I wrote the article in October of 2001 when the 9/11 death toll was being reported as around 7,000 people, which is the figure I mention in my said article. Now the 9/11 death toll is reported as being close to 3,000 people.

"Jesus Is an Anarchist," James Redford, revised and expanded edition, November 9, 2005:

http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.pdf

[mbf]

I think domestic spying is a good thing. If you don't have anything to hide, then why is it a big deal if you are spied on by the government?

well the problem is: it is not you who decides what is "something to hide", its them. and it could be anything, like the fact you ip-adress can be connected to this forum. and an overzealous person working for the government might draw unfavourable conclusions.

besides: domestic spying doesnt prevent acts of terror or heavy crime. criminals are not foolish, they know that they r spied on already and simply find other means to hide their true intentions.

[The American Nightmare]

I think domestic spying is a good thing. If you don't have anything to hide, then why is it a big deal if you are spied on by the government? Because the way this administration is carrying it out is illegal.

Furthermore, the war on terror has been nothing but a joke. At least once a month you'll catch breaking news of a subway station/grocery store/busy highway/etc. being evacuated due to a "non-specific" threat. When has anything ever happened? Has a bomb ever been found? Has an attack been prevented? I'm not aware of anything good coming out of all the time wasted.

No, usually it's >> deadly terrorist, Cat Stevens << (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/22/plane.diverted.stevens/index.html) or a >> soda bottle bomb! << (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/07/ny.dc.subway/index.html)

Won't someone please think of the children???