Koch brothers and iran

[Prospero]

So the puppet masters and prime funders of the tea party movement - rallying the ordinary people of the US against government and in support of big business - have been caught out trading with iran. They've managed to fool a lot of the people a lot of time, but as the old saying going, you can't fool all of the people. Wake up folks - these are the people who are persuading you to campaign for lower government spending on the poor so they and their billionaire buddies can line their pockets.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/billionaire-koch-brothers-in-the-dock-over-trades-with-iran-2365181.html

[Bobby Domino]

great article, Prospero. I'm going to see how much coverage this gets today and the rest of the week. Cheers & great signature!!!!

[Silcc69]

Something something blah blah blame George Sorros. :)

[Prospero]

erm... what was your point exactly, Silcc69?

[Stavros]

The real story here is the one that doesn't get discussed: the USA and Iran locked in mutual denial. There are complex reasons for this:

1) the USA's anxiety over the export of the Iranian revolution and Iran's interference in the internal politics of Bahrain, Syria, Lebanon and most recently, Iraq and Afghanistan (although the last two were presented to Iran by the Bush Presidency); and

2) Internal disputes in Iran: the death of Khomeini re-ignited the internal debate about the relationship between the clergy and the state, the group around Khamanei intent on perpetuating the theocracy while the reformers around Rafsanjani wanted more efficient government and thus one a few degrees away from religion: unfortunately this became a power struggle that intensified when Khatami won the elections in 1997.

Khatami could see the landscape clear enough: an enemy of the West to Iran's west (Iraq), an unstable threat to the security of India to its east (Afghanistan) -two states also hostile to Shi'a Islam. Khatami convened secret talks with the Clinton administration mostly through Oman, and Clinton's team were keen to progress them but were stuck with the attack on the Khobar Towers in 1996 -although a group called 'Saudi Hezbollah' claimed responsibility for the attack on the US Air Force barracks (19 dead) the US eventually had evidence that it was the work of Iran's Revolutionary Guards.

On the one hand there was an opportunity to break this impasse and avoid US retaliation against Iran; on the other hand, Khatami was fighting his own battles with the Revolutionary Guards and the hardliners around Khamanei. Although Clinton concluded the Khobar Towers was part of an internal Iranian conflict over political direction designed to undermine the reformers and make life hard for them, the risks for both parties at the time were too great and the talks came to nothing.

A renewed attempt by Khatami to repair relations with the US began after 9/11, loudly condemned by his Presidency, but which led to nothing -according to current head of MI6 John Sawers, John Bolton, the USA's Ambassador to the UN said something to the effect that the US would talk to Iran 'over my dead body'.

For Iran the problem was that Khatami winning two terms raised anxieties about an emerging generation of Iranians restless for change and less religious interference in their lives. It may be that the elections which saw Khamanei's protege Mahmoud Ahmadinejad win shored up the clergy's position, but in the last 18 months Ahmadinejad has fallen out with his masters and earlier this year there was the possibility that he would be thrown out before his term ends.

Obama had an opportunity to upset the balance of opinion in the region by taking on all of the sacred cows: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghanistan: his advisers such as Dennis Ross have tended to place the interests of Israel above all of these with the consequence that Obama's regional policy is purposeless, meaningless, and obviously fruitless. There is no hope for change at the moment. Ironic given Iran's Jewish community has fairly close tied to Israel.

But what the Koch brothers represent is the fact that Iranians both want and need foreign capital to boost their economy. The opportunities for change are there, but Obama's Middle East policy is made in Israel, and the GOP challengers have tended to state publicly that they are so in love with Israel that nothing and nobody else matters.

Links:
The secret talks with the Clinton administration here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB318/index.htm (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB318/index.htm)

A general overview of attempts at US-Iran rapprochement, here:
http://americanforeignpolicy.org/overview-how-to-deal-with-iran/a-short-history-of-us-iran-relations-post-revolution

Michelle Bachmann's hymn to Israel is here
Michele Bachmann: Update on Israel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7cMxE1oFf0)

[Silcc69]

erm... what was your point exactly, Silcc69?

I was quoting a republican talking point. :)

[Ben]

The Koch brothers believe in "free" markets. Ya know, the "freedom" to do business with theocracies. The "freedom" to break laws.
Their father Fred Koch had business dealings, as it were, with the Soviet Empire.
As Adam Smith said: Business is about deception and control. He pointed out that a major goal of business is to deceive and oppress the public.
And when your sole objective is to maximize profits, well, you'll do whatever it takes. Dick Cheney and Halliburton come to mind -- :)

Illegal Koch Brothers Iran Deal Exposed - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKXvAehfPY)

Price Fixing by Koch Brothers - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0eiZDR8Xs)

Dangerous Koch Bros Pipeline Leaks - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FALOXK2cZYY&feature)

[robertlouis]

Has this story picked up any mileage in the US media yet?

[onmyknees]

Has this story picked up any mileage in the US media yet?


Ha ha hha ha ha ha ...You're kidding right Robert? Maybe with Rachel Maddow and her gigantic audience of 75,000. These fools have blamed everything from Cancer to Global Warming on the Koch Brothers. And you Brits might not be aware of this but the guy behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz was actually a Koch Brother. LMAO. It's a huge yawn. Recall when their battle cry was "HALLIBURTON, HALLIBURTON" ..Well that pretty much fizzled out when every investigative body looking into the charges found no wrong doing. So it's onto the Koch Brothers. It might have some traction with those morons protesting something near Wall Street, but the rest of us would gladly accept a job with a Koch Brothers company. All this is geared to deflect and distract from the colossal failure of Obama's economic policies. We're about 6 months away from becoming Greece.
If you're into real substantive investigations with sworn statements on the record, ( but more often it's pleading the 5th !) in front of Congressional committees, google "Fast and Furious", and or Obama/Green Energy and this is a real beauty....google "Solyndra". These pathetic hypocrites seemingly have no opinion on the Obama Administration pissing a half a billion in tax payers money down a rat hole, to a company run by big Obama donors, but give them a distraction like the Koch Brothers, and they'll figure out some conspiracy theory to match it.

And to add to the comedy of the left....we have the Dems passing Dodd/Frank to stick it to the banks. We'll show them. So naturally the banks take the costs of Dodd/Frank and pass it on to customers...then the left stands up in Congress and tells citizens to "take thier money out of these banks"...You can't make this shit up. A freshman economics student understands more about free markets and how they operate then these buffoons. Be afraid...be very afraid.

[Silcc69]

Ha ha hha ha ha ha ...You're kidding right Robert? Maybe with Rachel Maddow and her gigantic audience of 75,000. These fools have blamed everything from Cancer to Global Warming on the Koch Brothers. And you Brits might not be aware of this but the guy behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz was actually a Koch Brother. LMAO. It's a huge yawn. Recall when their battle cry was "HALLIBURTON, HALLIBURTON" ..Well that pretty much fizzled out when every investigative body looking into the charges found no wrong doing. So it's onto the Koch Brothers. It might have some traction with those morons protesting something near Wall Street, but the rest of us would gladly accept a job with a Koch Brothers company. All this is geared to deflect and distract from the colossal failure of Obama's economic policies. We're about 6 months away from becoming Greece.
If you're into real substantive investigations with sworn statements on the record, ( but more often it's pleading the 5th !) in front of Congressional committees, google "Fast and Furious", and or Obama/Green Energy and this is a real beauty....google "Solyndra". These pathetic hypocrites seemingly have no opinion on the Obama Administration pissing a half a billion in tax payers money down a rat hole, to a company run by big Obama donors, but give them a distraction like the Koch Brothers, and they'll figure out some conspiracy theory to match it.

And to add to the comedy of the left....we have the Dems passing Dodd/Frank to stick it to the banks. We'll show them. So naturally the banks take the costs of Dodd/Frank and pass it on to customers...then the left stands up in Congress and tells citizens to "take thier money out of these banks"...You can't make this shit up. A freshman economics student understands more about free markets and how they operate then these buffoons. Be afraid...be very afraid.

But the Koch brothers are no different than George Sorros. Spend a shitload of money to get Obama out of office just like Sorros tried with Bush. Billionaires with right and left wing agendas.

[trish]

Ha ha hha ha ha ha ...

(I just felt like laughing)

[Bobby Domino]

Has this story picked up any mileage in the US media yet?

To answer your question, no.

Our major media outlets have been concentrating (24hours/day) on the protests down on Wall Street and its growing trend around the country.
Now that Steve Jobs has died, the Koch investigation will be swept under the rug; or until more substantive proof is found in the matter. This will resurface, I'm sure.
Bloomberg News had an article on Oct 3 (link below).

With regard to (American) Media, Business, Politics, who knows what/who to believe anymore. We are spoon-fed misinformation and endless demagogy. One must be quite astute to be able to read between the lines.

Essentially, what are we "fighting" for; what do we want; and who do we trust to to represent our interests? I don't think many people could give you an answer.

We can't plan for the future if we can't diagnose the problem.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

[Ben]

But the Koch brothers are no different than George Sorros. Spend a shitload of money to get Obama out of office just like Sorros tried with Bush. Billionaires with right and left wing agendas.

The likes of Charles and David Koch and Soros have their own agenda. Which is: to serve their own interests. It's rational. It's called, well, rational self interest.
I mean, the Koch brothers aren't concerned with anyone else. Well, why should they be? Why should they care about anyone else? Why should they?
I mean, care and concern for other people is simply irrational... and bad for their own business interests.
I mean, if the goal of business is to maximize profits -- and it is -- then it's fundamentally irrational to concern yourself with other people. (The conservative economist Paul Craig Roberts has talked about how "rational" CEOs are carrying out their own specific interests regardless of the harm it causes to America or the American worker.
I mean, we've been taught this principle in our culture: ya know, you're the only one that counts.)
I think it's silly to criticize what corporations and corporate executives ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. I mean, they can't do anything but serve their own interests.
Well, actually, the Koch brothers run a private company. So have some leeway. They could act like saints. But acting saintly isn't good for business. And as Gordon Gekko once famously said:

Gordon Gekko -Greed is Good-.MP4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muz1OcEzJOs)

AND THE FRIGHTENING TRUTH:

Gordon Gekko and GREED - I create nothing, I own. Wall Street quotes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A5BOrzjqbI)

[Bobby Domino]

was this already posted somewhere? I forgot where I got this....

This guy tells the GRIM truth about the current situation. It's basically the definition of capitalism. AMAZING!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqN3amj6AcE

[Bobby Domino]

The likes of Charles and David Koch and Soros have their own agenda. Which is: to serve their own interests. It's rational. It's called, well, rational self interest.
I think it's silly to criticize what corporations and corporate executives ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. I mean, they can't do anything but serve their own interests.

Ben, you're totally right. What is currently happening is capitalism by truest definition. In theory gov't exists, in this case, to regulate them.
I mean, a police force is created so we, as citizens, just don't go into a grocery store and take what we want without paying.
But now the cops are splitting the profits with the thieves.

[Stavros]

Sorry Bobby, but if this was 'capitalism by its truest definition' then it would not only be the Koch brothers interested in making more $$$ in Iran, the political 'No Entry' sign would have gone and it would be a 'free market'. It is politics, not economics, which has cast opprobrium on the Koch brothers, not that anyone notices it much with the news being dominated by Amanda Knox and now the death of Steve Jobs. This is probably not the right moment anyway, until Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is gone from office, and unless there is a glimmer of reform in the country, I don't see Iran and the USA making up just yet -as I said before, Khatami presented them with the oportunity in 2001 and Bush rejected it; one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes of the Bush Presidency.

[Prospero]

Stavros makes many very cogent points about the trading relationship with iran.
However the key point for domestic US politics remains, for me, an exposure of the cynicism of these people - and the fact that they've successfully manipulate some genuine grassroots feeling away from where true anger should be directed and directed it at government attempts to limit the behaviour of rogue companies like Koch. That is what makes them exceptional - the ability to manipulate public opinion so powerfully against its own interests. Corporate interference is a long established reality in politics globally. The Koch brothers have just managed it - until now - with a greater ingenuity than many.

[Stavros]

Corporate interference is a long established reality in politics globally. The Koch brothers have just managed it - until now - with a greater ingenuity than many.

As in, having made some money without being headline news, yes, you are right -most corporations either don't want to be in the news, or, if they must be, want their reputation to look good. The Koch brothers are not as well known as Murdoch, but then neither are the Barclay brothers, even in the UK. I think the issue here is -why? Exxon, Shell, BP -the oil companies deal with a strategic resource that is used by consumers, industry, and the military -so many people use oil and oil products all day and every day we all have some familiarity with the Names -not so with Koch. The irony is that the oil companies probably contribute more to national exchequers, and pension pots, and 'corporate social responsibility' than Koch, but get a rougher press. But cynicism? Capitalism is not a moral system, in itself -and the Koch brothers, surely, run legal, not rogue companies...?

[Prospero]

Their cynicism for me is their funding of foundations and groups who are persuaded to campaign against "big government and against increased taxes and controls on corporations. Koch and their ilk have managed to help animate the tea party against the interests of ordinary american citizens and in support of deregulated capitalism.

[Bobby Domino]

Sorry Bobby, but if this was 'capitalism by its truest definition' then it would not only be the Koch brothers interested in making more $$$ in Iran, the political 'No Entry' sign would have gone and it would be a 'free market'. It is politics, not economics, which has cast opprobrium on the Koch brothers, not that anyone notices it much with the news being dominated by Amanda Knox and now the death of Steve Jobs. This is probably not the right moment anyway, until Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is gone from office, and unless there is a glimmer of reform in the country, I don't see Iran and the USA making up just yet -as I said before, Khatami presented them with the oportunity in 2001 and Bush rejected it; one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes of the Bush Presidency.


Stavros, I think we agree fundamentally on the subject. Koch industries is not concerned with politics, American foreign policy or the law with regard to doing business with Iran; there is a US trade ban, it’s illegal. Their main & only concern is economics, in other words profits. According to the Koch internal company documents, the company made those sales to Iran through foreign subsidiaries, deliberately & intentionally thwarting a U.S. trade ban. Does it get any more capitalistic than that?

The fact that Koch is not in the public eye - they very work hard not to be - gave the company the ability to successfully find ways to circumvent American law. Koch Industries is obsessed with secrecy, to the point that it discloses only an approximation of its annual revenue -- $100 billion a year -- and says nothing about its profits (Bloomberg, Oct. 2). Why is that? Because they conduct business in a highly questionable manner – bribes/improper payments, rigging prices, disregarding regulations, falsifying data, and literally stealing, by mismeasuring extracted crude in 1999. There’s even a term for this practice within the company, it’s called the Koch Method. It seems to me like they’re exercising the “free market” concept.




Stavros makes many very cogent points about the trading relationship with iran.
However the key point for domestic US politics remains, for me, an exposure of the cynicism of these people - and the fact that they've successfully manipulate some genuine grassroots feeling away from where true anger should be directed and directed it at government attempts to limit the behaviour of rogue companies like Koch. That is what makes them exceptional - the ability to manipulate public opinion so powerfully against its own interests. Corporate interference is a long established reality in politics globally. The Koch brothers have just managed it - until now - with a greater ingenuity than many.


This is why I feel this particular topic needs some attention. In this fragile time when Americans are questioning each other’s patriotism, a company funds a group of people who tout strong American values while doing business with a country that has threatened our American way of living.

[onmyknees]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/head-embattled-energy-loan-program-steps/story?id=14685395

Robert Louis...While they distract you and others with wild tales of the Koch Brothers , here's what else is happening.

[Ben]

An interesting article by the American economist Dean Baker.

Steve Jobs and Alan Greenspan


by Dean Baker (http://www.commondreams.org/dean-baker)


On the tragic passing of Steve Jobs, while still a relatively young man, it is interesting to juxtapose him to Alan Greenspan, one of the other iconic figures of our time. One made us rich, with a vast array of new products and new possibilities. The other made us poor with a long lasting downturn that could persist for more than a decade.
The two of them can be taken as symbols for the best and worst of modern capitalism. Jobs is the symbol of capitalism when it works. Again and again he broke through barriers, creating new products that qualitatively altered the market by making vast improvements over the competition.
Apple made personal computers a standard household product by developing a simple user friendly idiot-proof system that anyone could use. Jobs was a decade ahead of the Microsoft based systems, using menu driven computers in the mid-80s that were not matched by Microsoft until Windows was developed in the mid-90s. His later generation of computers continues to include features that make it far superior to the competition.
As we know, computers were only the beginning. The iPod changed the way people listened to music. The recently developed CD quickly followed the record on the dust heap of antiquated technologies. Vast amounts of music could be stored in a small handheld device instead of requiring massive bookshelves of records, as had been the case just twenty years earlier.
Then we had the iPhone that made smart phones a standard appliance featuring everything from video cameras to translation systems. And, of course there is the iPad, which, along with its competitors, is revolutionizing the way we read books and is largely replacing the laptop computer.
Jobs didn't do any of this by himself. He put together teams of great innovators. But the point is that he was able to recognize talented people and give them the means to make great innovations and bring them to the market. This is what a market economy is supposed to do.
By contrast, Alan Greenspan's vision was about getting rich. And plenty of people got very rich under the rein of Alan Greenspan, a disproportionate number of them on Wall Street. When we think of successful people in connection with Alan Greenspan we have to think of people like Angelo Mozilo, the CEO of Countrywide in its heyday as one of the leading pushers of subprime mortgages. Mr. Mozilo walked away with hundreds of millions of dollars while many of his customers faced foreclosure and his shareholders lost their shirts.
Richard Fuld, the CEO of Lehman Brothers is another hero of the age of Greenspan. Under Fuld' s rein, Lehman Brothers took the lead in packaging into mortgage backed securities (MBS) the loans hawked by Mozilo and his competitors in the subprime market. It apparently did not concern him that many of these loans were fraudulent and would inevitably blow up on both the homeowners and the purchasers of the MBS. Lehman also walked away with hundreds of millions of dollars as his company went down in flames.
And then there is Robert Rubin, another Wall Street multi-millionaire. After leading the charge for deregulation at Greenspan's side as Treasury Secretary, he took a top position at Citigroup. He pocketed over $100 million as Citigroup fell to near bankruptcy -- saved only by government bailouts - also done in by the subprime trash it marketed around the world.
The computer guru of Greenspan's world is Bill Gates, a man who got far richer than Steve Jobs. Gates' secret was not making great products -- the only ones praising his creativity at his funeral will be people on his payroll -- but rather in gaining control of markets. In other decades, the anti-competitive practices he pursued to win Microsoft a near monopoly in the computer market might have landed him behind bars. But in the age of Greenspan they made him the richest person in the world.
Unfortunately, we continue to live in the world of Alan Greenspan rather than the world of Steve Jobs. In spite of the remarkable innovations in technology over the last three decades, much of the country is poorer than it was 30 years ago. We have 26 million people who have the skills and desire to work, who can't find jobs or full-time jobs because of the mismanagement of the economy. We have people losing their homes and going homeless even though we have more than 14 million housing units sitting vacant.
This is economic stupidity of a high order. It is a world of unnecessary scarcity, where we have the ability to meet individual and social needs but are governed by people too timid or incompetent to take the steps needed to get the economy functioning right.
It is great to see people rising up in response to this absurdity in the Occupy Wall Street movement and its imitators around the country. Where this will end is anybody's guess, but at the moment it is our best hope for escaping the world of Alan Greenspan and moving toward a world that fosters the sort of creativity that Steve Jobs demonstrated in his too short life.

http://www.commondreams.org/sites/commondreams.org/files/imagecache/author_photo/dean_baker.jpg (http://www.commondreams.org/dean-baker)
Dean Baker (cepr@cepr.net) is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research (http://www.cepr.net/) (CEPR).

[Stavros]

In this fragile time when Americans are questioning each other’s patriotism, a company funds a group of people who tout strong American values while doing business with a country that has threatened our American way of living.

Bobby, first it slipped my mind that trading with Iran is illegal, but feel the 'threat' you speak of is the promotion of the religious clique who do hold power, but whose antique views are not shared by the majority of Iranians. There are a lot of Iranians in the USA who maintain contacts with their relatives and friends -for that matter the same is true of Iranian Jews and their friends and relatives in Israel- sometimes trade is better than politics, and if the law was changed, there could be opportunities for a gradual reduction in tension leading to normality, same with US-Cuba relations -its the hostile mind-set on both sides that feeds this bloated beast. Obama had his chance, and he blew it. So it probably won't happen soon.

[Stavros]

On the tragic passing of Steve Jobs, while still a relatively young man, it is interesting to juxtapose him to Alan Greenspan, one of the other iconic figures of our time. One made us rich, with a vast array of new products and new possibilities. The other made us poor with a long lasting downturn that could persist for more than a decade.

A curious juxtaposition -Steve Jobs was CEO of a Corporation, why not compare him to another CEO -eg, Rex Tillerson- and Apple to Exxon? Suddenly, it seems, corporate America is not so bad after all...

[Bobby Domino]

In this fragile time when Americans are questioning each other’s patriotism, a company funds a group of people who tout strong American values while doing business with a country that has threatened our American way of living.

Bobby, first it slipped my mind that trading with Iran is illegal, but feel the 'threat' you speak of is the promotion of the religious clique who do hold power, but whose antique views are not shared by the majority of Iranians. There are a lot of Iranians in the USA who maintain contacts with their relatives and friends -for that matter the same is true of Iranian Jews and their friends and relatives in Israel- sometimes trade is better than politics, and if the law was changed, there could be opportunities for a gradual reduction in tension leading to normality, same with US-Cuba relations -its the hostile mind-set on both sides that feeds this bloated beast. Obama had his chance, and he blew it. So it probably won't happen soon.

Stavros, I agree with you. Trade can and usually helps relations between countries; a perfect example is China.
But I don't think Koch Industries' intentions to do business with Iran was to ameliorate relations, preempting US foreign policy.
No US administration could anything with Iran when Ahmadinejad wants to annihilate Israel.

[Stavros]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/head-embattled-energy-loan-program-steps/story?id=14685395

Robert Louis...While they distract you and others with wild tales of the Koch Brothers , here's what else is happening.

Thanks for this link, onmyknees. We have been here before, Jimmy Carter inherited an energy crisis and promoted research into renewable sources of energy, even having solar panels installed on the White House where they provided the hot water until a leak early on in the Reagan Presidency when he and Donald Regan decided to have them thrown out. By then there was so much overpduction of oil the price -in 1986- sank to $10 a barrel. I don't think the Obama presidency should have invested in solar, but the privat sector isnt so interested; and it is a blow to the jobs creation strategy that hasn't taken place in renewables -as in the 1980s, but a reversal: the oil price is now so high it makes what was the uneconomical tar/oil sands industry feasible -with conservation added, the US has now reduced its imports of oil to 50%; and the growth of hydraulic fracturing to extract indigenous sources of oil and gas, means this new phase in the industry should reduce American dependence on the Middle East even more -but at what cost to the environment I don't know. It also means the pace of development in solar and other renewables will be slower, even though it makes sense to solar power a home.

[Stavros]

No US administration could anything with Iran when Ahmadinejad wants to annihilate Israel.

Bobby I think you read too many reports of Ahmadinejad's speeches. Iran at the sub-state level has closer relations with Israel than most Arab states, and Ahmadinejad is not only on the way out but now widely considered an eccentric fool; the real struggle will come in a couple of years when the next elections are held; Ahmadinejad started out as a populist who doled out money to rural areas, but critically was there to maintain the rule of the Islamic clergy; he has failed to deliver economic growth, and has fallen out with Khamane'i, but a lot will depend on whether a reform candidate can stand and get elected. Iran is a concern because of its interference in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Afghanistan, but it trades with the Emirates and Oman on a regular basis right under the noses of the Americans -I think there is more room for manoeuvre than with the Saudi's, for example, who are even more paranoid than the Iranians. Israel...oh dear..another thread..what on earth are the Americans doing in bed with that bunch of fascists?