huh....Say What.. Warren Buffet ?

[onmyknees]

So at every campaign stop, all we hear from Obama is about Warren Buffett is begging to pay more taxes. Even O'reilly chided Jay Carney "enough with the Buffet stuff already", but still it continues. "Tax the rich"...So somebody from CNBC decides to put him on the spot. Interesting response. Ideally if one lends his name to a tax proposal , one might think he would more affirmatively be on board with it. Maybe Mr. Buffett just likes to hear Obama say his name 30 times a day?? Because he certainly seems at odds with Obama's threshold of 250K...in fact Mr. Buffet says if you make 50 million on TV or playing Baseball your taxes will be unchanged. WHAT?? Maybe Barry and Buffet should get on the same page? BTW...in case you're inclined to blame the Tea Baggers for not moving on Obama's jobs debacle....The top Senate Dems ( Reid and Turbin Durbin) have said they might have time to get to it next month...maybe ...!

Warren Buffett: I Don't Fully Support 'Buffett Rule' - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwxfZ_bHHVw&feature=player_embedded)


And check out ole Warren throwing Obama under the bus about the way he demagogues the fat cats and corporate jet owners. Seems like just a year ago Congress ( democrat controlled) in an attempt to stimulate the economy passed generous tax breaks for those very same fat cats, now he bashes them.
This guy is either completely clueless, or the most blatant demogogue we have ever seen occupy The White House. But don't take my word for it....Listen to Mr. Buffett.

Warren Buffett disagrees with Obama's rhetoric about jets - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGjWwYacy-U&feature=player_embedded)

[Ben]

If we live in a [meaningful] democratic society, well, I think it's up to the American people to decide what kind of society we want to live in.
Do we want progressive income taxes? Do we want 91 percent income taxes on the highest income earners? Do we want public health care? Do we want a steep reduction in military expenditures? Do we want so-called Free Trade agreements? Or do we want to protect our industries? Do we want to control our own labor? Do we want corporations to spend more on and/or in communities?
Well, this is up to the American people to decide.
But, well, one can argue it's unfair for the few -- like Buffett, Lloyd Blankfein (CEO of Goldman Sachs) and Bill Gates -- to control the many. That isn't fair.
And it isn't fair for the many to control the few. Like the general populace controlling the likes of Buffett, Blankfein and Gates.
So, what's the solution????
It's a predicament -- ha ha ha! :)

[Faldur]

Buffett's claim that he paid a smaller percentage in taxes than his secretary was a steaming pile of huey. If he wants to pay more taxes he has every right to do so and pay to his hearts desire.

His entry in this discussion was disengenous and therefore I don't consider him valid in the conversation. We've gone from "hope and change", to "divide and conquer". Our current president is inept at governing the country. The only talent he has is campaigning, which he continues on a daily basis.

Yes we Cain baby.. yes we Cain

[onmyknees]

If we live in a [meaningful] democratic society, well, I think it's up to the American people to decide what kind of society we want to live in.
Do we want progressive income taxes? Do we want 91 percent income taxes on the highest income earners? Do we want public health care? Do we want a steep reduction in military expenditures? Do we want so-called Free Trade agreements? Or do we want to protect our industries? Do we want to control our own labor? Do we want corporations to spend more on and/or in communities?
Well, this is up to the American people to decide.
But, well, one can argue it's unfair for the few -- like Buffett, Lloyd Blankfein (CEO of Goldman Sachs) and Bill Gates -- to control the many. That isn't fair.
And it isn't fair for the many to control the few. Like the general populace controlling the likes of Buffett, Blankfein and Gates.
So, what's the solution????
It's a predicament -- ha ha ha! :)



Ben...you know I like you, but sometimes you sound like those fools sleeping in the park protesting Wall Street. Fair? WTF does fair have to do with anything? If you're looking for fair, you're several generations too late, and born on the wrong continent. There was a Bolshevik revolution in Russia circa 1920 that was supposed to address fairness and redistribute the wealth. How'd that work out?
It's not a zero sum game. Just because Buffet and Gates are wealthy doesn't mean there isn't room for one more in that exclusive little club. It's there for the taking...this is America.

[trish]

No. The fool who was born too late is you OMK. Tax rates equivalent to those of the Reagan administration is not Bolshevism, it's not 1920's Russia, it's not communism of any shade or variety. It's simply pure American twenty first century patriotism. Get with the program. Stop booing patriots, soldiers, and people who are standing on own two feet and not on the family fortune. And no, not every American can make more than the bottom 99.9% of Americans.

[Nicole Dupre]

Ben...you know I like you, but sometimes you sound like those fools sleeping in the park protesting Wall Street. Fair? WTF does fair have to do with anything? If you're looking for fair, you're several generations too late, and born on the wrong continent. There was a Bolshevik revolution in Russia circa 1920 that was supposed to address fairness and redistribute the wealth. How'd that work out?
It's not a zero sum game. Just because Buffet and Gates are wealthy doesn't mean there isn't room for one more in that exclusive little club. It's there for the taking...this is America.
Shut the fuck up.

[Erika1487]

Nicole, Trish, I know I said I would quit posting about politics, but get real. I have heard this tired liberal dance for decades.....Redistribution of wealth
The invisible effects of liberalism materialize in this manner – Good People: rational, educated, moral, homeowners, small-business owners, hard-working, taxpayers (producers), are outnumbered by Bad People: irrational, largely emotion-driven, under 35, hedonists, mis-educated, criminal-record holding, demagogues, non-taxpayers (takers or any liberal blow hard on HA). If the latter group overtakes the former group, that place in time will become a social, economic, intellectual wasteland.(This fourm for example)

Think of liberalism like a deadly virus or a parasite. What does a parasite need to survive? That's right, a host or a living creature that it uses and abuses for its own pleasure. Applied to the crisis of leadership, liberal Redistribution of wealth in the form of taxes is the parasite and the host is the productive Capitalist. Like a giant, disgusting leech, for the past 75 years FDR-style liberal ideas and socialist programs designed "to help the poor and working class' have sucked this country dry..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJkMOjqwxFI

[trish]

Think of the wealthy as parasites growing fat by taking possession of the goods crafted by the goods makers before they're even produced and selling them back to the good producers at a profit. That's called the redistribution of wealth and power by controlling the means of production;i.e. exploitation of labor. It's as old as slavery and a close relative. Your "job producers" have been sitting on their asses ever since the Bush taxcuts took effect. Meanwhile production has never been higher.

[gmercer]

Damn, some of you conservatives are too fucking stupid to know what the hell Buffett is talking about. When he says that he pays a lower percentage in taxes as his secretary he is talking about how income from capital gains and dividends are taxed at a much lower rate than regular income, and is not subjected to payroll taxes. There are hedge fund managers that have made more than a billion dollars in a single year in income, but only pay a 15% tax rate because they classify the income as a long term capital gain. Meanwhile if you make $50,000 a year, you pay 7.65% payroll tax, with your employer matching, so you end up paying $7,650 in taxes, on an real income of $53,825, for an effective tax rate of 14.2%. Then if you're single, after taking the standard deduction and deducting for yourself, you'd pay $6,249.60 in Federal taxes. So the total effective tax rate for someone making $50,000 is about 25.8%.

So the guy making $50k per year pays 25%, but the guy who makes over a billion in a single year pays 15%. And we wonder why the gap between the top 0.1% and everyone else has been increasing at such an unsustainable rate.

[Faldur]

Damn, some of you conservatives are too fucking stupid to know what the hell Buffett is talking about. When he says that he pays a lower percentage in taxes as his secretary he is talking about how income from capital gains and dividends are taxed at a much lower rate than regular income, and is not subjected to payroll taxes.

We're stupid and you have no idea that this money was already taxed as income? The 15% tax paid in the capitol gains taxes is paid by after tax money. So that would put the tax rate at about 48%, you think that is enough? Talk about stupid.

[gmercer]

We're stupid and you have no idea that this money was already taxed as income? The 15% tax paid in the capitol gains taxes is paid by after tax money. So that would put the tax rate at about 48%, you think that is enough? Talk about stupid.

You're a fucking moron. The capital itself isn't being taxed, it's the GAIN you ignorant fuckwad. That's the difference between the sell price and the purchase price. It's fucking income so why shouldn't we tax it the same rate we tax income that people actually have to work for?

If I used my after tax savings to purchase $50,000 in oranges, and spent the next year selling orange juice and made $100,000 in total sales then I'd pay income taxes on the net income. But if I used the same savings to buy $50,000 in orange futures, then got lucky when the price doubled, and sold it for $100,000, I could pay the lower capital gains rate. Why is one type of income favored over the other? Why should hard work be penalized, while financial speculation is rewarded?

[Nicole Dupre]

Ben, don't take this bluff artist seriously. He doesn't have a pot to piss in. He sent me his photo, and he looks like he pumps gas in Arkansas. He's a wannabe. He WISHES he had what these glib cocksuckers are danging in front of him like a carrot. And he thinks if he's a good little goosestepper, he can be in their club. But trust me. He's not. That's why he plagiarized an entire article from a newspaper and signed his name to it.

He's full of shit, and writes people he doesn't even know, wanting to suck their dicks. That's what caliber of goon he is. And then he accused me of pop psychology and thinking I'm high society. lol I'm punk rock to the core. I'm 1%er to the core. And he's a poser.

But that's how simplistically his mind works, and how easy intimidated he is. This is how transparent dummies run scared when they think they won't have gas for their Harleys. "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." He doesn't know the first thing about what "America" is. Trust me, Ben. Tell his kind to wash your windshield the next time you fill 'er up, to go back to his trailer to drink his Budweiser, and to mind his own fucking business.

[Silcc69]

I LOL at this scene,
From The Movie Watchmen by St 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni1ACvMSwYI)

[robertlouis]

Just found this on Facebook. True, true, true.

[Stavros]

We live in a capitalist economy, RobertLouis, so the money that different people earn is dependent on the skills they bring to the employment market, and the rewards that they can get. If someone thinks it is wrong that a nurse whose care can save a life should be paid less than a bank manager whose responsibility is for his customers savings, that someone is making a moral -not an economic- judgement on what different jobs are worth. We call this Marxism, as it was Marx who injected moral indignation into the analysis of capitalism.

But if a rock star or band over a successful 10 year career 'earn' or 'make' $100 million, how have they stolen it, and from whom? Was that teenager forced to buy U2 records or Beatles albums? If Bill Gates and Steve Jobs can be multi-millionaires, is that because they stole their earnings? There are cogent ways of criticising capitalist economics, but Ms Lebowitz doesn't have the intellect for it, on the basis of your quote.

[giovanni_hotel]

Stock traders have become securities speculators, they no longer are venture capitalists investing in new industries and growing the American economy.

A rock star or a 'supastar' athlete can't be compared to a bond trader, although stock traders feel they deserve to make the income of celebrity entertainers.

Annie Leibowitz knows of which she speaks IMO. Most people who have fortunes in excess of $100 mil from stock trading and short-selling didn't 'earn' that money from adding new businesses to the Fortune 500.

It's a scam/skim/deposit proposition and a capital drain on the U.S. economy.

Gates and Jobs MAKE STUFF and sell product to people. That's called a BUSINESS. That's wholly AMERICAN.

A leveraged buy of 1 million shares of Company X, juicing the share price then selling those 1 million share for 4x the purchase price before the close at the end of the week isn't growing the economy or creating new business. It's pushing electronic paper in a global casino that's been rigged by the top 5 investment banks.

There are hedge fund managers and major investment banks who became RICH when the global economy tanked in 2009.
Goldman Sachs sold junk subprime derivative securities to investors, then made short bets AGAINST the same crap they sold worldwide on the assumption the U.S. housing market would crater in value.

How did they know the U.S. housing market would collapse?? Because they were pushing mortgage lenders to make loans to people with NO JOBS because all that crap paper was going to be bundled, diced and sliced into trash stocks and sold as AAA rated stock.

This has all the hallmarks of one of the biggest economic conspiracies ever perpetrated in the history of modern civilization.

IMO it should be a federal criminal offense to make 10s of billions of dollars betting against a stock your firm is selling to unknowing investors is going to drop precipitously in value.

It's similar to selling someone a house then taking out a $500,000 dollar home insurance policy in case the home owner's house burns down.
Surprise. The house burned down.

For the littles, you would be investigated for months by an insurance firm for running that scam and would likely end up in jail.
This is EXACTLY what happened on Wall Street, yet people don't talk about it anymore.
(Control the media and you control the public discourse).

Short sellers and speculators created this planetary crater in the global economy.

The 99 percenters are protesting exactly where they should be.

[trish]

Stock traders have become securities speculators, they no longer are venture capitalists investing in new industries and growing the American economy.

A rock star or a 'supastar' athlete can't be compared to a bond trader, although stock traders feel they deserve to make the income of celebrity entertainers.

Annie Leibowitz knows of which she speaks IMO. Most people who have fortunes in excess of $100 mil from stock trading and short-selling didn't 'earn' that money from adding new businesses to the Fortune 500.

It's a scam/skim/deposit proposition and a capital drain on the U.S. economy.

Gates and Jobs MAKE STUFF and sell product to people. That's called a BUSINESS. That's wholly AMERICAN.

A leveraged buy of 1 million shares of Company X, juicing the share price then selling those 1 million share for 4x the purchase price before the close at the end of the week isn't growing the economy or creating new business. It's pushing electronic paper in a global casino that's been rigged by the top 5 investment banks.

There are hedge fund managers and major investment banks who became RICH when the global economy tanked in 2009.
Goldman Sachs sold junk subprime derivative securities to investors, then made short bets AGAINST the same crap they sold worldwide on the assumption the U.S. housing market would crater in value.

How did they know the U.S. housing market would collapse?? Because they were pushing mortgage lenders to make loans to people with NO JOBS because all that crap paper was going to be bundled, diced and sliced into trash stocks and sold as AAA rated stock.

This has all the hallmarks of one of the biggest economic conspiracies ever perpetrated in the history of modern civilization.

IMO it should be a federal criminal offense to make 10s of billions of dollars betting against a stock your firm is selling to unknowing investors is going to drop precipitously in value.

It's similar to selling someone a house then taking out a $500,000 dollar home insurance policy in case the home owner's house burns down.
Surprise. The house burned down.

For the littles, you would be investigated for months by an insurance firm for running that scam and would likely end up in jail.
This is EXACTLY what happened on Wall Street, yet people don't talk about it anymore.
(Control the media and you control the public discourse).

Short sellers and speculators created this planetary crater in the global economy.

The 99 percenters are protesting exactly where they should be.Excellent post.

[Stavros]

A rock star or a 'supastar' athlete can't be compared to a bond trader, although stock traders feel they deserve to make the income of celebrity entertainers.

Giovanni, I think you mean Fran not Annie Leibowitz.

The point you are making is consonant with mine in this respect: you are making a moral judgement which compares bond traders unfavourably with 'superstar athletes' or rock stars: capitalism makes no such moral distinctions; and if you were employed as a bond trader, what would you do? If it is your job to buy and sell dollars on the international money markets, you can choose to carry on with it or get another one if you think your job is undermining the nation when, say, suddenly everyone is selling the $. Again, you make a distinction between Apple and Microsoft because you can touch and use their products, but bond traders, short-sellers, asset managers are also handling a commodity you touch, its called money: in capitalism, everything is a commodity, your iPhone, my laptop, your body, my hours that are given to work.

The only way out of this situation is regulation, not self-regulation, but regulation that sets benchmarks, standards or whatever it is that you feel should restrain the wilder excesses that money markets indulge in, if you feel that they are to blame. Fair enough, but I have to laugh cynically when Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are given tickets of leave not granted to Warren Buffet or Rex Tillerson: all of them are or were CEO's of corporations who have benefited most from the tax breaks and savagely brilliant tax lawyers who can reduce the corporate tax burden even better than the Reagan-Clinton-Bush presidencies sweetheart deals. Like they say in The Wire: you're in the game; you play the game.

[fred41]

A rock star or a 'supastar' athlete can't be compared to a bond trader, although stock traders feel they deserve to make the income of celebrity entertainers.

Giovanni, I think you mean Fran not Annie Leibowitz.

The point you are making is consonant with mine in this respect: you are making a moral judgement which compares bond traders unfavourably with 'superstar athletes' or rock stars: capitalism makes no such moral distinctions; and if you were employed as a bond trader, what would you do? If it is your job to buy and sell dollars on the international money markets, you can choose to carry on with it or get another one if you think your job is undermining the nation when, say, suddenly everyone is selling the $. Again, you make a distinction between Apple and Microsoft because you can touch and use their products, but bond traders, short-sellers, asset managers are also handling a commodity you touch, its called money: in capitalism, everything is a commodity, your iPhone, my laptop, your body, my hours that are given to work.

The only way out of this situation is regulation, not self-regulation, but regulation that sets benchmarks, standards or whatever it is that you feel should restrain the wilder excesses that money markets indulge in, if you feel that they are to blame. Fair enough, but I have to laugh cynically when Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are given tickets of leave not granted to Warren Buffet or Rex Tillerson: all of them are or were CEO's of corporations who have benefited most from the tax breaks and savagely brilliant tax lawyers who can reduce the corporate tax burden even better than the Reagan-Clinton-Bush presidencies sweetheart deals. Like they say in The Wire: you're in the game; you play the game.

Your views often seem the most well balanced on here.

Often people on here will make a persuasive argument...until it becomes biased by their personal, political views (and/or political party affiliation)...but I don't usually see that in your posts. It seems like your posts tend to deal more with facts...I respect that.

[Stavros]

Thanks Fred, but I can also be outrageously biased -mostly on films and music I admit, but sometimes its possible to take a position without alienating people, which is important in discussing politics.

[yodajazz]

You're a fucking moron. The capital itself isn't being taxed, it's the GAIN you ignorant fuckwad. That's the difference between the sell price and the purchase price. It's fucking income so why shouldn't we tax it the same rate we tax income that people actually have to work for?

If I used my after tax savings to purchase $50,000 in oranges, and spent the next year selling orange juice and made $100,000 in total sales then I'd pay income taxes on the net income. But if I used the same savings to buy $50,000 in orange futures, then got lucky when the price doubled, and sold it for $100,000, I could pay the lower capital gains rate. Why is one type of income favored over the other? Why should hard work be penalized, while financial speculation is rewarded?
Good logic. In addition, from my limited understanding that futures trading, tends to drive up the prices of goods, especially such everyday things such as gas prices. Everyone knows how higher gas prices, put a damper on the economy, effecting everyone's decisions even on daily activities. As I have said here several times before, the notion that the wealthy are going to create jobs through tax cuts is misleading, especially due to the option of futures trading.

[yodajazz]

Buffett's claim that he paid a smaller percentage in taxes than his secretary was a steaming pile of huey. If he wants to pay more taxes he has every right to do so and pay to his hearts desire.

His entry in this discussion was disengenous and therefore I don't consider him valid in the conversation. We've gone from "hope and change", to "divide and conquer". Our current president is inept at governing the country. The only talent he has is campaigning, which he continues on a daily basis.

Yes we Cain baby.. yes we Cain
The point of Buffet's argument was about fairness, not complaining that his own taxes were too low. Plus you are missing essential human nature. Most all people will take full advantage of what is legally offered to them. Poor people getting 'earned income credit', is no different than big corporation getting tax credit for some special government regulation. Most everyone will take full advantage of the laws they know about. To use another example; take speed limits. Some will drive faster, but most only slightly so. Others will drive slower. But most will use the legally posted speed as a guideline.

By the way, our nation has had some serious challenges in recent years. Most things were due to long standing issues and policies. I have yet to hear anyone, with solutions to the real issues facing us today. People hire, because of demand for thier products. I have yet to see, how much effect 'less regulation', would create substantial jobs.

Also "divide and conquer" is the centerpiece of conservative strategy. Getting poor White people vote against their own self interest, is their main path to power. Attacking liberals, is a well paid profession. And how is saying that poor people need to pay more, but the wealthiest need not sacrifice, not 'class warfare', when we are looking at a large deficit?

[Faldur]

The point of Buffet's argument was about fairness,

I wonder where some of you learned about "fairness".

The Top 10% of tax payers pay 71% of all federal taxes received,
The Bottom 48% pay 0%, explain how that is fair? You want fairness? How about a flat tax that all Americans pay, fairly.


Poor people getting 'earned income credit', is no different than big corporation getting tax credit for some special government regulation.

Government should not be in the business of giving either.


Also "divide and conquer" is the centerpiece of conservative strategy

To state that one political party is responsible for "divide and conquer" tactics is disingenuous. It has become the political tool of choice for both parties.

The Conservative and Liberal parties have stoked the fires of hatred in their supporters for so long we have reached a point where we can't even have a civil discussion of ideas. Both sides live the mantra of "if you don't think like me you are X, and I hate you". Were stuck in this mess, and wherever it takes us. Unless we can all step back and look at our own party and see it for the fucked up mess it is. And realize the people on the other side of the isle are our brothers and fellow countrymen who have formulated a different opinion than our own.

[yodajazz]

I wonder where some of you learned about "fairness".

The Top 10% of tax payers pay 71% of all federal taxes received,
The Bottom 48% pay 0%, explain how that is fair? You want fairness? How about a flat tax that all Americans pay, fairly.



Government should not be in the business of giving either.



To state that one political party is responsible for "divide and conquer" tactics is disingenuous. It has become the political tool of choice for both parties.

The Conservative and Liberal parties have stoked the fires of hatred in their supporters for so long we have reached a point where we can't even have a civil discussion of ideas. Both sides live the mantra of "if you don't think like me you are X, and I hate you". Were stuck in this mess, and wherever it takes us. Unless we can all step back and look at our own party and see it for the fucked up mess it is. And realize the people on the other side of the isle are our brothers and fellow countrymen who have formulated a different opinion than our own.

I did not say that Democrats criticize others. However I do say that there is much more negatvity, including hate, coming from the right. An example, would be that on this forum, I recall someone from a conservative viewpoint, say we would be better off without poor people. There is no corresponding sentiment from a liberal viewpoint. True liberalism would be to value the dignity of all. Programing that benefits the poor, for example, has that underlying philosophy. But also there is the belief that this support ultimately helps all. Public education, is probably the prime example. It seems to me, that this is a from of investment, in our nation's long term future.

I recall someone from a conservative viewpoint, saying here, that people are only poor because they are less talented, or lazy. Or take the concept that poor people are "looking for a handout". But prosperous industries, hiring lobbyist to induce 'favorable legislation' is really the same thing. Both are trying to better prosper, through legal means. Recent times have also shown that both wealthy and poor have tried to prosper through illegal means, also.

Speaking of things illegal, a man who aledgedly sold 140 million dollar of stock, that he knew was going bad, was given probation and a 78 million fine. At the same time countless numbers of people are given years in jail for less than $1,000 dollar of illegal drigs. My point is that some people see this as an injustice. They dont hate the rich.