Amanda Knox and the Murder Mystery

[Stavros]

Murder mysteries, as books, sell millions a year. I don't know what proportion of films concern murder, but on tv more or less every day you can watch -daytime and prime time- a detective solving a murder mystery. In general, the themes are simple: no matter how clever a murderer thinks he or she is, good will triumph over evil, the transgressor will be punished.

In real life, we have murders which go to trial, and where the evidence suggests the accused is there for the right reason -and in some cases it is not an issue. But in others the accused deny their involvement, and through an appeals process doubt is cast on the original judgement. DNA proves he/she could not have done it; witnesses who insist they saw a man in a blue shirt retract their evidence; the case was so shocking the police withheld evidence to ensure a known criminal was 'fitted up' for the crime so it could be closed.

And there are miscarriages of justice based on all or some of the above.

The murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia has become a gruesome circus, but its the language and cultural differences that make this a compelling story.

Just today, the counsel representing Patric Lumumba, wrongly accused by Knox of being the killer, described Ms Knox in the following terms: One side is "angelic, good, compassionate, and in some ways even saintly", but the other side is "Lucifer-like, demonic, satanic, diabolic" and "longs to live out borderline extreme behaviour" he said. The judge in the original trial described the murder as part of a 'satanic ritual', regardless of the fact that no such evidence was put before the court.

Meredith Kercher is the 'nice, clean and tidy, modest English girl' who shared an apartment with a 'loud, sloppy, vulgar American'; the Italian justice system is corrupt, its Keystone cops coldn't find a murder weapon if it was sticking out the victims head; the forensics were not done on the day but up to a month after the incident; and so on and so on.

Or: Knox went from Seattle where she can't buy a drink in a bar, to Europe where she can drink all day and every day; she was young, she smoked dope with friends (as she did with Meredith when they first met), and liked to sleep around and have fun and was not too concerned with her studies -the devil in disguise, or just a young woman free from home? And what about the smooth Italian with a rich father, a young man who carried knives around in his pocket? There are so many ingredients here for sensational stories.

I dont know if Ms Knox was in the bedroom when Meredith was murdered, I don't even know if she was in the house -I do know one man has been convicted. But you start out with a clear case of a four-way 'sex game' gone wrong, and end up with a burglar high on drugs assualting and killing Meredith when she interrupted his crime.

Will we ever know what happened? Is Knox so wicked she will never 'tell the truth' -or has she been telling the truth all along?

[tsdvdman]

GUILTY!!
If you really had nothin to do with the murder then why would you lie and destroy another innocent man's life?

[hippifried]

Will we ever know what happened? Is Knox so wicked she will never 'tell the truth' -or has she been telling the truth all along?

Odds are that she's a pathelogical liar who's been getting away with all kinds of viscious shit her whole life. She just stepped over the line & finally got caught. Oops!

The real question should be: Will we ever care what happened?

[arnie666]

GUILTY!!
If you really had nothin to do with the murder then why would you lie and destroy another innocent man's life?

Well that doesn't do much for her character and certainly paints her as a fucking bitch but that alone doesn't make her a murdering fucking bitch.However I have been following this case for some time and in my opinion she was in that room at the time meredith was killed. Her level of involvement is a matter of debate . .However she has lied and lied ,and certainly will not want to explain why she was there,finally telling the truth.I doubt we will ever know the full truth of what happened on that night,but Knox deserves to be where she is and should stay there.No the picture that is painted of the Policework and knox's involvement is not great,however the actual painting of the picture seems biased in one direction,the US media have really done an excellent job.

I am concerned however,that american pressure, the fact she is a pretty female and pretty females never hurt or murder anyone ,it is known ,we will end up with a level of justice similar to casey antony and OJ. I personally think if she was male, far less of a fuck would be given by the media or her supporters ,apart from close family.

What I find most disgusting about this case is knox's toilet habits. It was alleged she never flushed the toilet after having a dump,it was said she did it to annoy meredith but her defence team say she behaved like that because she was some kind of environmental superfreak,apparently flushing the toilet harms the environment. Whatever the truth,that alone means the human race is better off without some lying, nasty hippy bitch.

[Bobby Domino]

After following the case for a while, I think she had something to do with it. She KNOWS what happened. She's guilty. The only reason this case is still in the media is that she's American and Italian police procedures, forensics & legal system don't concur with ours. Yes, the Italian police did a sloppy job, but doesn't mean she's innocent. She probably would have been cleared had this crime happened here, given the facts.

[Stavros]

What I find most disgusting about this case is knox's toilet habits

Arnie, according to Barbie Nadeau in her book Angel Face, there is enough environmental awareness in Seattle to coin the phrase: If its yellow let it mellow, if its brown, flush it down -I dont know if Ms Knox followed this rule, but if so it would be another cultural misunderstanding.

I was expecting most people to think Ms Knox innocent. She might have been in the vicinity, thats possible, but she must be truly venal and selfish to continue lying if she is guilty; sometimes the obvious is the answer: she wasn't there, she didn't do it. She claims she fingered Lumumba to get the police to stop endless questions with occasional slaps around the head.
Yes, Hippifried, I care. It is about justice, finalmente, whoever it is who commited the crime.

[Faldur]

What I find most disgusting about this case is knox's toilet habits. It was alleged she never flushed the toilet after having a dump,it was said she did it to annoy meredith but her defence team say she behaved like that because she was some kind of environmental superfreak,apparently flushing the toilet harms the environment.

The environmental whacko method is, "If its brown flush it down, if its yellow let it mellow."

Being a Dad with a young daughter studying abroad, this case scares the hell out of me.

[hippifried]

Yes, Hippifried, I care. It is about justice, finalmente, whoever it is who commited the crime.

Tabloid justice doesn't work. It just throws a bunch of irrelevant what-ifs, political silliness, facts out of context, innuendos, & outright lies into the public sphere with no way of knowing the line between fantasy & reality. It only took 4 posts to turn this into a discussion of how long you should let your shit ferment before sending it off so somebody else can play with it. I never really paid much attention to this case, but wasn't it a conspiracy case where 3 people got convicted? Weren't all of them blaming the others? Aren't they the only witnesses to the crime? Is there any reason for anyone to believe anything any of them have to say? She's just going to jail. She'll get out. There's other things happening in the world, so I see no reason to give a shit.

& speaking of which... This...
If its yellow let it mellow, if its brown, flush it down ...isn't about waste, & I don't believe it was coined in Seattle. That little rhyme was in effect during the droughts of the '70s in Flagstaff, when Lake Mary dried up. It was never about the effects of waste on the environment. It's about conserving domestic water supplies in a time of shortage. A lot of towns in that area end up hauling in water by train or truck if there's little or no snow the previous winter. The Grand Canyon Railway hauls tankers of water every trip because there's no ground water at all up there, & practically no surface water. The ranchers have little dams on every dry wash to catch runoff & water their cattle & sheep. It isn't political & never was, Faldur.

As for Amanda Knox & her toilet habits: The story is that she wouldn't flush her turds. There is a school of thought on that, having to do with splashing the piss water on your ass while taking a shit. I don't know what the deal is with water in Italy. I don't think there's a problem in Seattle. It's likely that she was just trying to be an annoying bitch, or she's just a fucking thoughtless pig. She certainly isn't a hippy, Arnie. I'm a hippy. You want to actually know something other than a bunch of lame stereotypes spouted off by assholes who weren't there, just ask.

[tsdvdman]

I hate to say it but she will probably get off. The American media has been portraying her as innocent and getting a raw deal in Italy. And who knows who is doing some behind the scenes work..Hillary? maybe. But America can't fathom the fact that a young cute white girl would commit murder or even conspire to commit murder. Just look at Casey Anthony,,,they let her off plain and simple.

[Stavros]

My original point, was the way in which the evidence that is presented to convict someone of a crime, becomes the evidence that proves they didn't do it. The dna in the blood that put all three convicted of the crime at the scene, we are now told was contaminated. Allegations made at the beginning were dropped because they didn't make sense -that Knox bought bleach the morning after the crime and used it to remove her fingerprints, but failed to remove Rudy Guede's -even though we assume all those bloodstains were mixed. In Nadeau's book she claims the original investigator found a blonde hair in Meredeth Kercher's vagina, something I have never read about since. Evidence presented in court is designed to either convict (Prosecution) or acquit (Defence), it often is not the whole of the evidence. It is that elusive nature of truth that makes the murder mystery such a popular genre in films and literature. Yet the true stories are often more baffling and impossible to solve than the sleuthing genius of Hercule Poirot or Columbo.

[robertlouis]

Anybody who wants to find out more about the way that the Italian justice system does (or just as often, does not) operate, should read the book The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi.

By anatomising the judiciary's handling of a particularly gruesome series of murders committed over a period of years in the Florence area, it picks out all the shortcomings and opportunities for corruption that the system offers. Eight men have been accused in four separate trials and subsequently acquitted, and the authors themselves must have come too close to the truth as both of them have been variously pursued by the authorities for everything ranging from contempt to actual involvement in the murders.

It won't help anyone to solve the tortuous mess that the Kercher trial has become, but it will tell you almost all you need to know about the Italian justice system and a lot about Italian society besides. And it reads like a thriller.

[hippifried]

Does the Italian system work?

[arnie666]

Anybody who wants to find out more about the way that the Italian justice system does (or just as often, does not) operate, should read the book The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi.

By anatomising the judiciary's handling of a particularly gruesome series of murders committed over a period of years in the Florence area, it picks out all the shortcomings and opportunities for corruption that the system offers. Eight men have been accused in four separate trials and subsequently acquitted, and the authors themselves must have come too close to the truth as both of them have been variously pursued by the authorities for everything ranging from contempt to actual involvement in the murders.

It won't help anyone to solve the tortuous mess that the Kercher trial has become, but it will tell you almost all you need to know about the Italian justice system and a lot about Italian society besides. And it reads like a thriller.

Might have known you would take the murdering psychos side:dancing:

[Stavros]

I don't doubt that the police in Florence made a mess of the Monster case, but one of the original points about my post, was that incompetence is part of the cultural interpretation of the case in Perugia -there is a general view that the Italian state is so badly run and so corrupt that justice cannot be achieved in a court of law.

But this is the same country that has locked up hundreds of Mafiosi over the last 10 to 15 years, that has persuaded the pentiti to break the omerta to smash one family after another -ok it hasn't destroyed the sistema, but Italian law does sometimes work.

If the police in the UK were better maybe we would have a point, but I can think of a few cases where the accused signed confessions after being beaten up by the cops; where a policewoman was used to seduce a suspect who was then charged with a murder he didn't commit, and so on and so on. It isn't the police or even the prosecution who are at fault in Perugia -there are three people, Rudy Guede, Raffaelle Sollecito and Amanda Knox, and one two or all three of them have not told the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

[tsdvdman]

I hate to bring race into it but it is obvious. Another young white girl gets off for murder because of her looks and because of the pressure from the American media..who refused to cover the guilty aspects of the crime. She lied on an innocent black man..another black man got 30 years..yet she and her boyfriend walk scott free..WOW!!

[Stavros]

I accept that it is 'convenient' that the sole person now convicted of the murder is Black, as in 'non-Italian' except he is Italian by nationality, but he has not denied he was in the house and had sold dope to the guitarist in the basement flat which Knox, Sollecito and Kercher had been in, possibly all at the same time.

However, the prosecution failed to convince the judges that their dna evidence and the circumstantial evidence did not leave room for doubt: the police's gathering of evidence was incompetent and sloppy -it often is and not just in Italy- and their questioning of Knox without a lawyer was a gift to the defence. No murder weapon has been produced, they still don't know if one knife or two were used, and yet the prosecution claims to have 10,000 pages of evidence to convict, but failed to get the basics right.

The doubt was enough; it doesn't conclusively resolve the issues, and I don't doubt there will be a further appeal in January, but I don't see any more mileage in this for the prosecution unless they can produce conclusive proof that Knox and Sollecito were involved.

[Dino Velvet]

I accept that it is 'convenient' that the sole person now convicted of the murder is Black, as in 'non-Italian' except he is Italian by nationality, but he has not denied he was in the house and had sold dope to the guitarist in the basement flat which Knox, Sollecito and Kercher had been in, possibly all at the same time.

However, the prosecution failed to convince the judges that their dna evidence and the circumstantial evidence did not leave room for doubt: the police's gathering of evidence was incompetent and sloppy -it often is and not just in Italy- and their questioning of Knox without a lawyer was a gift to the defence. No murder weapon has been produced, they still don't know if one knife or two were used, and yet the prosecution claims to have 10,000 pages of evidence to convict, but failed to get the basics right.

The doubt was enough; it doesn't conclusively resolve the issues, and I don't doubt there will be a further appeal in January, but I don't see any more mileage in this for the prosecution unless they can produce conclusive proof that Knox and Sollecito were involved.

I have a couple questions.

I think I heard in Italy a defendant is not protected against Double Jeopardy. Is this true?

Is she still on the hook for fees payable to the Italian gov't?

[Ben]

Hopefully she writes a book.... And makes a million bucks -- :) I mean, getting into trouble w/ the law and becoming a millionaire is the American Dream -- :)

Amanda Knox Acquitted, Innocent and Set Free - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqdK9L2ZtoA)

[Stavros]

I have a couple questions.
I think I heard in Italy a defendant is not protected against Double Jeopardy. Is this true?
Is she still on the hook for fees payable to the Italian gov't?

Dino, the case has not been closed -the appeal decision will be clarified by the Court over the next 90 days, at the end of which the Prosecution can appeal against the decision in Rome. If they win, then Knox would presumably have to return to prison, and Italy would ask for her to be extradited.

As for the money, having her conviction quashed means she is entitled to 500,000 Euros; however she was found guilty of slandering Patrick Lumumba for which the fine is 21,921 Euros.

Under the Italian legal system, the weakest evidence is produced at appeal, apparently one of the reasons why Italy has one of the smallest prison populations in Europe. What the strongest evidence consists of, I do not know, its an odd system, but in the end, all of the cases -the guilty who go free, the innocent who are imprisoned- stand and fall by the evidence presented in Court, and that is never all of the evidence that exists.

[Dino Velvet]

I have a couple questions.
I think I heard in Italy a defendant is not protected against Double Jeopardy. Is this true?
Is she still on the hook for fees payable to the Italian gov't?

Dino, the case has not been closed -the appeal decision will be clarified by the Court over the next 90 days, at the end of which the Prosecution can appeal against the decision in Rome. If they win, then Knox would presumably have to return to prison, and Italy would ask for her to be extradited.

As for the money, having her conviction quashed means she is entitled to 500,000 Euros; however she was found guilty of slandering Patrick Lumumba for which the fine is 21,921 Euros.

Under the Italian legal system, the weakest evidence is produced at appeal, apparently one of the reasons why Italy has one of the smallest prison populations in Europe. What the strongest evidence consists of, I do not know, its an odd system, but in the end, all of the cases -the guilty who go free, the innocent who are imprisoned- stand and fall by the evidence presented in Court, and that is never all of the evidence that exists.

Thanks. It's hard enough keeping up with the laws and cases just in California alone. Your information was very helpful. Thanks again. :cheers:

[robertlouis]

Under the Italian legal system, the weakest evidence is produced at appeal, apparently one of the reasons why Italy has one of the smallest prison populations in Europe. What the strongest evidence consists of, I do not know, its an odd system, but in the end, all of the cases -the guilty who go free, the innocent who are imprisoned- stand and fall by the evidence presented in Court, and that is never all of the evidence that exists.

A masterly summation, Stavros, with the section in italics a masterpiece of laconic understatement. Read The Monster of Florence and be wary of hurting your jaw after all the times it will hit your table.

[Stavros]

Thank you for the compliment, I just don't have time at the moment to read anything outside of work -had I done so I would have been made aware that the original Judge in Perugia -Giuliano Mignini- had form stemming from the Florence case; that he was charged with abuse of office; has a bizarre obsession with Satanic cults (everyone's at it, apparently -except him of course) and the Masons, which is ironic given that a section of Italian anti-communist politics was once manipulated by a Masonic lodge. His attitude from the start was hostile and deeply damaging for all concerned, and didn't even have much to do with the evidence!

I have also read somewhere that the 'Mafia' was involved in Meredith's murder, perhaps Rudy Guede has kept his mouth shut to save his life. And so on. The 'Mafia' is an easy culprit to drag into everything that goes wrong in Italy. But it is even further complicated because Italy created an independent judiciary with extraordinary powers, capable of taking on organised crime. And on top of that, I was told by a law graduate from Bari that it was a standing joke in Italy that so many students in the Mezzogiorno studied law at university so they could get a cushy job pushing pieces of paper around some obscure ministry in Rome or the regions -she was a brilliant lawyer and has a successful career outside the country. Anyway, Berlusconi now has an additional reason to try and reform a system that doesn't seem to work very well.

[arnie666]

Thank you for the compliment, I just don't have time at the moment to read anything outside of work -had I done so I would have been made aware that the original Judge in Perugia -Giuliano Mignini- had form stemming from the Florence case; that he was charged with abuse of office; has a bizarre obsession with Satanic cults (everyone's at it, apparently -except him of course) and the Masons, which is ironic given that a section of Italian anti-communist politics was once manipulated by a Masonic lodge. His attitude from the start was hostile and deeply damaging for all concerned, and didn't even have much to do with the evidence!

I have also read somewhere that the 'Mafia' was involved in Meredith's murder, perhaps Rudy Guede has kept his mouth shut to save his life. And so on. The 'Mafia' is an easy culprit to drag into everything that goes wrong in Italy. But it is even further complicated because Italy created an independent judiciary with extraordinary powers, capable of taking on organised crime. And on top of that, I was told by a law graduate from Bari that it was a standing joke in Italy that so many students in the Mezzogiorno studied law at university so they could get a cushy job pushing pieces of paper around some obscure ministry in Rome or the regions -she was a brilliant lawyer and has a successful career outside the country. Anyway, Berlusconi now has an additional reason to try and reform a system that doesn't seem to work very well.

Nah what happened was Knox didn't like meredith. Typical girl issues, rivalry jealously hormones that type of shite. She wanted to take meredith down a peg or two and was skint ,wanted money for drugs so she got the druggie guede who she bought drugs off to have a shufitie at her room, looking for cash. meredith came home found guede in her room and guede decided to rape her and slit her throat.As you do when you are a junky fuck who likes white women. Rule number one never trust a junkie to do anything for you.

That wasn't part of the plan for knox and she was in the house hiding away. Her boyfriend was in on it too. Then the druggie fucked off and they shat themselves.Knox was a naive stupid yank and her boyfriend was also not from the street,they were not used to being around unsavory people and didn't think guede would go that far. Conncocted several stories for the police made an attempt to sanitise the place to remove all traces of them being there.They thought they would be sent down for murder see. Knox fingered a black for the crime, the Police quickly (for the wop police) saw through her lies and let him go.

She got convicted along with her boyfriend and the junky wog but the prosecution and the wop police fucked things up, brought out the sex cult angle,police work was shite which would never hold water.The truth is simpler than that. Then cue PR being hired by knox family, big time media help, even Hillary clinton had go. Cue her beling released on appeal, along with the nice white boy from a respectable family. And the only one doing the time is the nigger small time drug dealer who no one gives a shit about. Modern justice by media that. And people call me racist!

Just my theory.

[arnie666]

man who knox falsely accuses speaks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047234/Amanda-Knox-fantastic-actress-says-bar-owner-accused-murder.html

If that swiss chap hadn't spoken up for him he could well be sitting rotting in a cell now as knox never fessed up about the false accusation. And if she did say it under duress ,she could easily have retracted it in the weeks that followed. Apparently the Police never put a foot wrong with him despite the pigment of his skin as well as the crimes he was accused of and him not being american.If they gave the white american girl a few digs what would they have done to him, if they are like she says? No one would have given a shit if he had fallen down the stairs at the police station,not that it ever happens .

It certainly sounds to me like the Yanks oj'd the appeals process. Still knox and her family stands to make a lot of money once the mainstream media take their pound of flesh, I hope this guy sues her for damages.

[Stavros]

Arnie, all we really know is that the whole of the available evidence has not been presented in court; the defence knew what was coming and yet so too did the Prosecution; the books and articles make all sorts of allegations which appear to link Knox to the crime scene whether she was in the room or not, but unless the evidence is shown, and cross-examined, how can we ever know the truth? That is the nature of murder mysteries in real life. Unsatisfactory response, but I don't know what else to say. In theory, both Knox and Sollecito could be re-arrested if the prosecution appeals and the first appeal is over-turned.

[Ben]

Amanda Knox, in Her Own Words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjHZKxqA-KQ

[Stavros]

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have had their convictions for murder re-instated by a Court of Appeal in Florence, a detailed report on the judgement will appear later. Because Knox is in the USA there may be an appeal for extradition from the Italian Government, a decision that will be passed to John Kerry -in the past the only Americans who have not been extradited to Italy (I think) have been military personnel or agents of the CIA. The decision is a disaster for both Knox and Sollecito and to those who think they are innocent simply incomprehensible given the lack of evidence in the original trial and the conduct of the lead prosecutor. I still feel there is a lack of hard evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt and also a lack of proven motive.

For those interested there is a detailed, but pro-Knox/Sollecito examination of the evidence and the trial here:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/index.html

[Stavros]

Correction -the case will now go to the Supreme Court and I believe only after that may extradition proceedings take place.

[broncofan]

I don't have much time to go through all of the trial evidence now (or any of it actually) but from what I remember the evidence that the original conviction was based on was extremely weak. I don't want to misstate any facts based on memory, but a lot of the forensic evidence almost seemed more exculpatory than anything else, given that it clearly implicated Rudy Guede.

One can always speculate as to a motive, but in this case there was speculation about everything from what happened to why it happened.

[broncofan]

The evidence against Rudy Guede:
Rudy admitted he was in the room.
Rudy's DNA was found in and on Meredith's body.
Rudy's DNA along with Meredith’s blood, was found on Meredith's purse.
Rudy's excrement was found in the toilet.
Rudy's shoe prints, set in Meredith’s blood, were found in the bedroom and hallway.
Rudy's handprints, in Meredith’s blood, were found on a pillow case in Meredith's room and on her wall.
Rudy had a cut on his right hand that was still visible when he was arrested.
Rudy fled the country.

This is from the site Stavros linked. I remembered reading some of it. His dna is all over the place, and we're to believe that Knox and Sollecito's dna was confined to specific items like a bra clasp. The evidence that Rudy Guede committed the murder, as you can see above, is substantial. Yet the evidence that they knew him, were at the scene, or conspired with him, is non-existent.

According to his story, he went to the restroom, came back and found her dead. Then somehow he becomes covered in her blood, and flees the country.

Prior bad acts evidence is usually inadmissible to show a person has a violent propensity, but it can be admitted when it is instead used to show a distinctive modus operandi. That Rudy Guede was known to break into buildings and carry a large knife would be of questionable admissibility in a U.S court on account of its potential for unfair prejudice, but its probative value is fairly obvious.

It's difficult when you can't account for all of the evidence yourself on first impression and instead get snippets here and there. But I remembered being fairly convinced that far from sustaining any burden of proof, the evidence almost seemed to rule out Sollecito and Knox' possible involvement.

[robertlouis]

The Italian justice system is notorious for its incompetence, corruption and labyrinthine processes.

I recommend The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi as a primer. It's a true story about a serial killer of women in and around the city of Florence from the 70s onwards, which (probably) involves the police, the judiciary and the church in a hideous cover-up. The co-authors were arrested and persecuted by the police for having the temerity to challenge the establishment's preferred view. It reads like a thriller, because that's what it is.

The truth about Meredith Kercher's murder will never be known because the Italians, who excel in many other things, are utterly shite at justice.

[broncofan]

The truth about Meredith Kercher's murder will never be known because the Italians, who excel in many other things, are utterly shite at justice.
I'll take a look at the book. Though I don't think everything there is to know will be known with certainty, the evidence does seem to speak pretty loudly.

The evidence against Rudy Guede for instance would have no trouble reaching a burden of proof in almost any country in the world. Admission that he was at the scene, a trove of dna evidence corroborating that, a history of carrying around a knife (the admissibility of which I discussed in my last post), fleeing the country and being found with a cut on his hand. Also consider the fact that the murder happened within the span of him going to the restroom according to his story, by people who were not in the room according to him when he left for the restroom.

On the other hand, Amanda Knox and Sollecito's dna confined to a bra clasp. If someone told you the procedures for collecting the dna were impeccable, it simply would not make sense that one person's dna is everywhere, but other people who were in the room leave a trace on a small, discrete object. The fact that his dna is everywhere indicates nobody wiped down the room.

I hate to be dogmatic about this, but I have trouble seeing both sides of this.

[bte]

When I was living in Italy, this trial was pretty big news. I haven't followed it in years, although just recently she was found not innocent and moved back to WA. Although when I first heard about the trial, my conclusion was she was guilty.

[Stavros]

Can you recall why you thought she was guilty? The press coverage has been remarkable for its indifference to facts, not least as more have emerged about the crime itself and the manner in which Amanda Knox conducted herself. Even though there is no evidence that she and Raffaele were even in the house that night, the original claim that Rudy Guede could not have acted alone has been an albatross on the trial, as well as the cheap sensationalism that needs a wicked American girl who is anything but innocent. The Court of Cassation has now even changed the motive, yet has not apparently explored the issue of uncleanliness in the top floor apartment by bringing in the other two (Italian) residents who also used the kitchen and bathrooms...the more you look at this, the worse it gets for Italian justice. And it is not as if there haven't been miscarriages of justice in the UK or the USA, it happens to us all.

[broncofan]

It's difficult to judge other legal systems because all have bad outcomes and it requires a lot of information about each to be able to make that criticism. What I think is a major problem are the rules of evidence used at the initial trial.

In the U.S legal system the Judge plays the role of gatekeeper for evidence of dubious value. For instance you do not get to say someone was involved in a sex game that went awry, unless you can make a baseline showing that that's what happened. It's the idea of conditional relevance. The fact that a sex game can lead to murder is only relevant if there was in fact a sex game.

Prosecutors in the U.S want what is called an anti-CSI instruction to be given to juries here. This instruction would tell juries that they do not need forensic evidence to convict someone of a crime. Prosecutors claim that based on recent television shows, jurors now bring with them the expectation that there will be dna evidence in every trial. But while it's true that you do not need forensic evidence to convict, for every type of evidence you are missing, you come farther and farther from sustaining a burden of proof. There is no eyewitness testimony putting them at the scene. No physical proof. No confession. No really solid, proven motive.

All you have is the fact that in a very long police interview that bordered on an interrogation, she appeared to behave like a flake. She implicated someone who had nothing to do with the crime...if you could sustain murder charges based on someone's peculiar behavior after the fact, you could probably convict anyone.

[broncofan]

the original claim that Rudy Guede could not have acted alone has been an albatross on the trial
I agree. Any assumption that is not really rational and is never re-examined is problematic. A murder doesn't require a quorum of more than one.

[robertlouis]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm personally disgusted by the 100% media attention focused on Amanda Knox to the almost complete exclusion of any sympathy or consideration for the real victim.

Remember, the girl who actually died? Her name was Meredith Kercher, and since the tragedy of her loss her family have conducted themselves consistently with dignity and restraint, unlike Ms Knox.

Innocent or guilty, her conduct and that of the fucked-up circus that surrounds her is utterly shameful.

[broncofan]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm personally disgusted by the 100% media attention focused on Amanda Knox to the almost complete exclusion of any sympathy or consideration for the real victim.

Remember, the girl who actually died? Her name was Meredith Kercher, and since the tragedy of her loss her family have conducted themselves consistently with dignity and restraint, unlike Ms Knox.

Innocent or guilty, her conduct and that of the fucked-up circus that surrounds her is utterly shameful.
Amanda Knox' bad judgment to begin with is probably what got her locked up. It's a sad thing but at a trial, the victim doesn't get nearly as much attention as the person accused of their murder. It's also true of the media coverage because the coverage is of the matters pending, which are guilt or innocence in the proceeding.

Imagine if you were accused of a heinous crime and when you tried to mount a defense you were accused of not showing proper respect for the victim of that crime. That sentiment is based in large part on the assumption that you had something to do with it. If you did not, then you'd be saying, "my claim that I was not involved in the crime is not a claim that there was no crime or that the crime committed was not heinous."

[broncofan]

But I agree with you Robert that it was a terrible and brutal crime.

[robertlouis]

Amanda Knox' bad judgment to begin with is probably what got her locked up. It's a sad thing but at a trial, the victim doesn't get nearly as much attention as the person accused of their murder. It's also true of the media coverage because the coverage is of the matters pending, which are guilt or innocence in the proceeding.

Imagine if you were accused of a heinous crime and when you tried to mount a defense you were accused of not showing proper respect for the victim of that crime. That sentiment is based in large part on the assumption that you had something to do with it. If you did not, then you'd be saying, "my claim that I was not involved in the crime is not a claim that there was no crime or that the crime committed was not heinous."


I'm not disputing anything you say in this post, but it doesn't address my central point which is that as far as the US media and public are concerned, this is all about Amanda Knox and the original victim of the crime can go to hell.

Am I angry about this? You bet I am. :pissed:

[broncofan]

I'm not disputing anything you say in this post, but it doesn't address my central point which is that as far as the US media and public are concerned, this is all about Amanda Knox and the original victim of the crime can go to hell.

Am I angry about this? You bet I am. :pissed:
I hear ya mate:).

[Stavros]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm personally disgusted by the 100% media attention focused on Amanda Knox to the almost complete exclusion of any sympathy or consideration for the real victim.

Remember, the girl who actually died? Her name was Meredith Kercher, and since the tragedy of her loss her family have conducted themselves consistently with dignity and restraint, unlike Ms Knox.

Innocent or guilty, her conduct and that of the fucked-up circus that surrounds her is utterly shameful.

You are right to be angry, but the simple fact is that nothing for Meredith Kercher can now be done, other than reach a conclusive verdict. Amanda Knox, however, is still alive; as indeed is Raffaele Sollecito -the media coverage doesn't seem that interested in him, perhaps because he doesn't wear a dress.

[Stavros]

As most of you will have read, the Court of Cassation in Italy has annulled the murder verdicts on both Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Sellicito, bringing an end to the legal proceedings, but probably not the story of this horrible murder, not least as another film about the murder is about to be released. The full analysis of their decision will be released by the judges of the Court in 90 days or so, but this does appear to be an indictment of the shoddy way in which this case was handled, though it is unlikely to change anything of substance in the procedures of the legal system in Italy.

[broncofan]

I am pleased with the verdict. I had followed the case and at one point was very interested in trying to understand what happened. It won't end speculation or bring closure, but it's always a good thing when someone is not convicted where the best evidence you have is some peculiar behavior, a coercive interrogation, and dna results that defy common sense.

Anyhow, I think Rudy Guede committed the crime without assistance and since he is in prison, the crime has not gone unpunished either.

[martin48]

Good to see an end to this legal farce, but bet she'll find it difficult to get a room mate