what the fuck is going on with the market

[mfmirofai]

I know summer is a shitty season for trading but daaaamn this is too much volatility.

[MdR Dave]

We could go into the machinations but it boils down to this: wealth is accruing to the ultra-wealthy.

Small investors are cashing out and losing, some times over and over (they did it at the end of 08 and they're doing it now). Then they are sitting in cash, missing gains during recovery and waiting for inflation to erode their purchasing power.

Meanwhile, the top 1% is aggregating wealth and power, buying at the bottom with excess reserves, over and over.

The wealth gap has never been greater than it is right now.

If you haven't sold yet, don't. If you can buy now, do it.

[alpha2117]

The truth is the US economy is dangerously under-regulated. GOP policy has always been to de-regulate and that leads to cowboy businesses busing the system and leading to financial disasters. If you look at the countries that have AAA+ credit ratings it's places like the Norse countries (Denmark, Norway, Sweden), Switzerland, Australia etc. Those countries have regulations on banks and business that allows for profit but stops the reckless behavior so common in the US. They also tend to have good social welfare systems that prevent the massive poverty that occurs in the US that leads to higher crime etc etc. Sadly the US system seems to be on a increasingly quicker cycle of boom then bust.

[MdR Dave]

The truth is the US economy is dangerously under-regulated. GOP policy has always been to de-regulate and that leads to cowboy businesses busing the system and leading to financial disasters. If you look at the countries that have AAA+ credit ratings it's places like the Norse countries (Denmark, Norway, Sweden), Switzerland, Australia etc. Those countries have regulations on banks and business that allows for profit but stops the reckless behavior so common in the US. They also tend to have good social welfare systems that prevent the massive poverty that occurs in the US that leads to higher crime etc etc. Sadly the US system seems to be on a increasingly quicker cycle of boom then bust.

Trees, meet forest.

Those places are more egalitarian than the US. And they don't have a government run by the rich, for the rich.

It's 1% of our country with 90% of the assets.

The sick thing is that they have the rank and file convinced that taxes are evil, corporations should gave the same rights as people, and that the TeaBaggers are a grass roots movement instead of a bunch of ball suckers.

Guess whose sack it is?

[maaarc]

Alpha, more correctly the Securities Exchange Commission is dangerously and woefully understaffed. The regulations are in place. However, the SEC is a haven for those who pass the bar exam but cant get jobs as lawyers. They understand nothing of the machinations of the market and are frankly out of their respective leagues. Mary Schapiro is well intentioned but will never be allowed to effect substantial oversight. Look at the Madoff debacle. A tiny company of barely a handful of traders who werent allowed to hold a risk position overnight in their proprietary accounts sitting on the dais with heavy weights such as Goldman and Morgan Stanley? Something stank and nobody asked why.

come on Jimmy - they caught Gordon Gekko didn't they ???

[Willie Escalade]

come on Jimmy - they caught Gordon Gekko didn't they ???
Dammit...you beat me to it!

The O'Jays - Rich Get Richer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXFijzJGt-0)

[maaarc]

Dammit...you beat me to it!

The O'Jays - Rich Get Richer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXFijzJGt-0)

ya but you are still living my dream life you bastard! :) BTW you take great photos Willie

[hard4janira]

There is so much fucking stupidity in this thread i cant even bring myself to answer the original question

[mfmirofai]

There is so much fucking stupidity in this thread i cant even bring myself to answer the original question

It was a rhetorical question anyway, but since were on the subject. I was in some triple leveraged etfs today. I'm just sayin...what the hell man....can a brotha man a non volitile dolla y'all?

[hard4janira]

Well, you would have been laughing all the way to the bank if you were in any ETF's that were double or triple short the S&P right? Well, they are out there. You might want to look into IAU or SLV too. and are you seriously questioning why the market is so volatile right now? It's painfully obvious.

But hey, it IS a good time to buy (no i am not a broker)

[Willie Escalade]

ya but you are still living my dream life you bastard! :) BTW you take great photos Willie
Thank you, kind sir...I try my best!

[PomonaCA]

A big vote of no confidence is what's going on. No one wants to throw money in with this chimp in the white house.

[onmyknees]

The truth is the US economy is dangerously under-regulated. GOP policy has always been to de-regulate and that leads to cowboy businesses busing the system and leading to financial disasters. If you look at the countries that have AAA+ credit ratings it's places like the Norse countries (Denmark, Norway, Sweden), Switzerland, Australia etc. Those countries have regulations on banks and business that allows for profit but stops the reckless behavior so common in the US. They also tend to have good social welfare systems that prevent the massive poverty that occurs in the US that leads to higher crime etc etc. Sadly the US system seems to be on a increasingly quicker cycle of boom then bust.


Sadly from 10,000 miles away, you're misinformed. The current fiscal calamity in the states was caused by Fannie and Freddie two quasi government agencies, which were under the "close scrutiny" of Congress and the Administration over the past dozen years. It was social policy disguised as regulation. We have an SEC, FTC, Rating Agencies, Banking Committees, Congressional oversight, and still they all fell asleep at the switch. It's not too little regulation, it's piss poor oversight and enforcement....and typical of politicians they over react with a new set of regulations ( Dodd Frank) that never address the causes of the problem, but rather the symptoms. You can see the market reaction to new regulations.
You talk about the US downgrade from S&P....which is the biggest bunch of horse shit ever laid out. You think China or any other purchasers of US debt are going to stop buying it because S&P downgraded it? We're still the safest investment in the world. And speaking of S&P.....watch for a Watergate sized investigation when it's revealed they had a hand in rating these Banks and Mortgage companies as AAA when they knew full well the paper was worthless. Yes...that's right...the big banks and the Morgan Stanley's and Lehman Brothers paid S&P for a AAA rating on those "toxic assets" that were bundled together, not insured and sold as AAA investments. That led to the housing crisis, which began the snowball effect. So much for the integrity and verasity of S&P.
Banks,brokerage houses, fund managers and investors need clear ,concise regulations, and the fear of enforcement. Not one person has gone to jail for all the shenanigans that went on over the past 3 years....in fact the Justice Department nor the SEC has even brought charges, so why should anyone fear any regulation if it's not enforced.


Those countries you mention ( with the possible exception of Australia) have much more government involvement in private sector business...in terms of subsidies. And they're homogenous societies....It's like comparing apples and oranges, and besides their GDP's are about this size Connecticut, so the comparison is foolish. What works in tiny, homogenous Finland, won't work in the biggest, most diverse, most complicated industrial economy in the world.

[Stavros]

It's not too little regulation, it's piss poor oversight and enforcement

This goes to the core of the events that have undermined confidence in economies on both sides of the Atlantic. Nevertheless, if the regulations were there, and the agencies were staffed, why indeed was there such a failure to understand, for example, the derivatives markets which played such a crucial role in spreading credit around the world?

Here in the UK, it seems that Her Majesty's Treasury, which used to be the smallest government department with the brightest minds, was able to monitor daily events on Wall St, the City of London, Frankfurt et al, but not to employ someone who knew what derivatives were doing on those markets -or if someone was employed, his or her reports were not read or understood. Again, the Bank of England, one assumes, must have had an expert on derivatives who knew what was happening. Both the Bank and the Treasury have enforcement options in their armoury, presumably a similar battery of options exists in the Federal Govt of the USA.

But surely it was a reluctance by the Bush Presidency and here, Blair's government, to 'harass' the whizz kids on Wall St generating such staggering profits year in year out -even though a close analysis would have revealed it was based on credit. Were these people blinded by the blizzard of dollars every time the glory boys got their bonuses?

Bush and Blair were pioneers of business-friendly 'regulation-lite'; I don't think even Margaret Thatcher would have ceded so much power to the men-in-markets: surely Americans can't put yet another 'business-friendly' dude in the White House who wants to go further and scrap regulations altogether, and do just about anything which recent events suggests would make things worse?

We are still waiting for an answer but yes, the lack of enforcement was critical.

[DaveinBoston]

I heard Obama announced he was going to cancel his vacation and remain in Washington and 'work' and the marked dropped 400 points.

[Border80]

Trees, meet forest.

Those places are more egalitarian than the US. And they don't have a government run by the rich, for the rich.

It's 1% of our country with 90% of the assets.

The sick thing is that they have the rank and file convinced that taxes are evil, corporations should gave the same rights as people, and that the TeaBaggers are a grass roots movement instead of a bunch of ball suckers.

Guess whose sack it is?

Taxes ARE evil. The current tax system is used to promote and oversee a social agenda rather than to raise revenue for the government to operate. Don't believe me? Look at a lot of the credits being promoted by the government (ie: green energy credits). The tax system stopped being about funding the government long ago when the idiots in congress (most of whom have 0 business/financial/economic/accounting experience) realized they could promote whatever agenda they wanted instead of what is best for the country.

[SammiValentine]

Bush and Blair were pioneers of business-friendly 'regulation-lite'; I don't think even Margaret Thatcher would have ceded so much power to the men-in-markets: surely Americans can't put yet another 'business-friendly' dude in the White House who wants to go further and scrap regulations altogether, and do just about anything which recent events suggests would make things worse?


was it not Thatcher that pioneered freetrade,unregulated dealings, with regards to business/banking...?? I think so..:P

[buckjohnson]

Thank you, kind sir...I try my best!

This is not a gansta type response.

[MdR Dave]

Taxes ARE evil. The current tax system is used to promote and oversee a social agenda rather than to raise revenue for the government to operate. Don't believe me? Look at a lot of the credits being promoted by the government (ie: green energy credits). The tax system stopped being about funding the government long ago when the idiots in congress (most of whom have 0 business/financial/economic/accounting experience) realized they could promote whatever agenda they wanted instead of what is best for the country.
Incredible. You're talking about what government does with taxes, not taxes.

I do agree that there is a lot of waste, especially when the money goes to bail out greedy, over-leveraged financial institutions that managed for years to pay out multimillion dollar bonuses through cash and options. Or fund a war that benefits a company like Halliburton, which moved it's headquarters to Dubai so it wouldn't face scrutiny in the US.

Blades of grass in an endless meadow. Have fun grazing.

[MdR Dave]

This is not a gansta type response.

That, Buck, is FUNNY!

[onmyknees]

was it not Thatcher that pioneered freetrade,unregulated dealings, with regards to business/banking...?? I think so..:P

Here Here....I think as a ficscal conservative this free trade debacle has cost us dearly. It's a complete falicy. While we do like cheap inferior goods sold at Wal-Mart from China and Viet Nam, it's killed our manufacturing base here in the US, and I suspect the UK as well. When you go to one of those athletic stores and see sneakers made in Sri Lanka selling for 140 US, you know you're getting fucked! There's one athletic shoe company left that even makes shoes here, and it's only 25% of the shoes they sell. Fair Trade perhaps, but not free trade.

PS...You're still one of my faves Sammi :fuckin:

[SammiValentine]

PS...You're still one of my faves Sammi :fuckin:
x x x

[MdR Dave]

Here Here....I think as a ficscal conservative this free trade debacle has cost us dearly. It's a complete falicy.

The fallacy is that we can have free trade and still blunder through the world as if Ike was in office and our greatest goal is two cars in the garage and a color TV in every living room.

The models and real life examples both bear out the fact that unrestricted trade produces the greatest economic good.

But for it to work we need to concentrate in producing goods for which we have comparative advantage. Instead, we keep churning out gems like the Ford Focus and bailing out failing car companies (and their pensions) again and again.

It works if we're honest about it. Fuck Ford and Chrysler. Take the Corvette and a few Caddies to a new company and resign Detroit to the scrap heap of history. Then look around for other things we suck at.

Then get better, or scrap that too.

[buckjohnson]

The fallacy is that we can have free trade and still blunder through the world as if Ike was in office and our greatest goal is two cars in the garage and a color TV in every living room.

The models and real life examples both bear out the fact that unrestricted trade produces the greatest economic good.

But for it to work we need to concentrate in producing goods for which we have comparative advantage. Instead, we keep churning out gems like the Ford Focus and bailing out failing car companies (and their pensions) again and again.

It works if we're honest about it. Fuck Ford and Chrysler. Take the Corvette and a few Caddies to a new company and resign Detroit to the scrap heap of history. Then look around for other things we suck at.

Then get better, or scrap that too.

Great post. Sad but true.

[onmyknees]

The fallacy is that we can have free trade and still blunder through the world as if Ike was in office and our greatest goal is two cars in the garage and a color TV in every living room.

The models and real life examples both bear out the fact that unrestricted trade produces the greatest economic good.

But for it to work we need to concentrate in producing goods for which we have comparative advantage. Instead, we keep churning out gems like the Ford Focus and bailing out failing car companies (and their pensions) again and again.

It works if we're honest about it. Fuck Ford and Chrysler. Take the Corvette and a few Caddies to a new company and resign Detroit to the scrap heap of history. Then look around for other things we suck at.

Then get better, or scrap that too.

I don't totally discount what you've said, in fact in large part I agree with most of it...but if you continue to over regulate companies and stifle expansion and growth, they'll send their raw materials to Guadalajara and send back finished products made for a fraction of the price. Sure we need to get better and more competitive, but it's difficult to do that when a shirt formerly made in Malden, Mass and employing hundreds of textile workers can now be made in China for 42 cents. At some point we hit the breaking point, and we're about there. Either we buy quality American products for a few dollars more, and support each other or watch our manufacturing jobs get shipped overseas never to return.

[MdR Dave]

I don't totally discount what you've said, in fact in large part I agree with most of it...but if you continue to over regulate companies and stifle expansion and growth, they'll send their raw materials to Guadalajara and send back finished products made for a fraction of the price. Sure we need to get better and more competitive, but it's difficult to do that when a shirt formerly made in Malden, Mass and employing hundreds of textile workers can now be made in China for 42 cents. At some point we hit the breaking point, and we're about there. Either we buy quality American products for a few dollars more, and support each other or watch our manufacturing jobs get shipped overseas never to return.
Yes! So let's stop making shirts! Incidentally it's the differences in regulations that gives China their greatest advantage. They are manufacturing a toxic environment, though, and will pay the price. Capitalism unrestrained by democracy= China. The average worker is still living in third world conditions in the most powerful economy the world has ever seen.

[SammiValentine]

Yes! So let's stop making shirts! Incidentally it's the differences in regulations that gives China their greatest advantage. They are manufacturing a toxic environment, though, and will pay the price. Capitalism unrestrained by democracy= China. The average worker is still living in thurkd world conditions in the most powerful economy the world has ever seen.

regulations?? umm surely cost of labour, raw materials etc are the advantage they have :) Re toxic environment, pretty much what we did in our industrial revolutions - all be it on a much greater scale lol

[Dino Velvet]

You're so cute, Sammi.:salad

[MdR Dave]

You're so cute, Sammi.:salad
That's the most truth this thread has seen!

[SammiValentine]

haha aaaaw heres me trying to be remotely serious for a change and i got cute'd :D

lol xx

[MdR Dave]

regulations?? umm surely cost of labour, raw materials etc are the advantage they have :) Re toxic environment, pretty much what we did in our industrial revolutions - all be it on a much greater scale lol

Prices are relative, especially in an economy that artificially manipulates it's currency. And their locally produced raw materials benefit from the virtual slave labor the workers endure. There were some appalling stories in mining in china recently.

And dino's right- crazy cute!

[Dino Velvet]

haha aaaaw heres me trying to be remotely serious for a change and i got cute'd :D

lol xx

You're so cute it's actually a curse.

[SammiValentine]

Prices are relative, especially in an economy that artificially manipulates it's currency. And their locally produced raw materials benefit from the virtual slave labor the workers endure. There were some appalling stories in mining in china recently.

And dino's right- crazy cute!

everythings relative somehow tbh lol

p.s thanks lol x

[Stavros]

was it not Thatcher that pioneered freetrade,unregulated dealings, with regards to business/banking...?? I think so..

As a general set of principles yes, but they were developed before the 'Big Bang' of 1986 which stripped out some of the ancient practices in the City. Thatcher was not a one-eyed free marketeer, in fact her attitude to spending would have meant that the runaway credit that was partly fuelled by derivatives would have set alarm bells ringing, and many of the regulations that governed the City's dealers were not repealed in spite of the Big Bang. Thatcher's understanding of markets was sharper than Blair's, she married into money and never needed to make it and was not overawed by millionaires, unlike Blair and Mandelson who became addicted to wealth. My point is that even Reagan, and even Thatcher were capable of modifying their 'free-market' ideology; I just can't see a credit boom happening under Mrs T that we saw with her pale imitation Toni Blair.