Is George W Bush to blame for the mine collapse??

[Kramer]

You stupid bastard liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

[The American Nightmare]

I get the impression that you can't have an orgasm unless you're punching yourself in the face.

[Felicia Katt]

Is Bush to blame? No. They don't know what caused the collapse yet. But, if because of budget cuts or a pro-profit philosophy, safety regulations were not enforced or violations were overlooked or only given a slap on the wrist, and but for that, the workers would not have died, his administration would be responsible.

FK

[shemalejunky]

The left will find a way to blame Bush and the GOP....that's how desperate they are.

[TgirlloverinPA]

Well, MSHA had found 18 safety violations prior to the explosion. MSHA is a federal agency, part of the DOL I believe and falls under the Executive barnch. I'm just sayin'.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

You stupid bastard liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

No he didn't cause it while I am no G.W. fan he did not cause a mine disaster. Being from WV I can tell you, "things were ripe for this type of disaster here." Like Katt said many things went into that collapse.

When I was married my wife's brother in law was a Safety manager at a mine south of Charleston WV, He told me he was the guy who tested the Atmosphere in the mines for build up of Methane gas. There were two of them, 1 for each 12 hour shift at that mine. Every Christmas thru New year they would be on vacation, unfortunately the miners were not on vacation.

the "unofficial" cause as being stated around here is it was a lightening strike that set off the gas.



But I guess it could have been G.W. playing with that new lightening gun that Rumsey got him for Christmas. :what :lol:

[popperluv]

Yeah but Bush is still the biggest idiot president we ever had!

I still cant get over the fact that he kept reading to kids in school after hearing the country was under attack on 911.

What a fuckin pussy!

[LG]

Did GW Bush cause the mine collapse?

No, not unless he was there with semtex, nitro or TNT. But could it have been prevented? Yes. Should the authorities have been stricter with the operators (and with operators across the country) after the mine had been cited for hundreds of violations over the years? Yes. Should those who could have prevented it be held responsible? Yes.

As I understand no one seems to know exactly what caused the explosions. But it is likely that the accident could have been prevented. Pointing fingers of blame will not help bring back the victims but over time could help prevent a similar occurence in the future. The mining company should have been more responsible. The authorities should have been more strict. The news reporters should have been more cautious.

And even though Bush and his golfing buddies are not directly to blame, they, as the ones to whom everyone else is accountable, must act to prevent such accidents from happening again. This is their responsibility. It is their responsibility to the American people, who voted them in and trusted them.

Bush is not to blame, but up the chain of command, he is the one who needs to ask the questions of the corporations that have supported him for so long, the media who on the whole have been positive to his administration, and the MSHA who should have made sure this kind of thing couldn't happen.

Wasn't Truman's motto "The buck stops here"? If only GW Bush could say that, just for once.

[InHouston]

Given this response Felicia ...

Is Bush to blame? No. They don't know what caused the collapse yet. But, if because of budget cuts or a pro-profit philosophy, safety regulations were not enforced or violations were overlooked or only given a slap on the wrist, and but for that, the workers would not have died, his administration would be responsible.
FK


Is it really that difficult for you to just say the following?

Is Bush to blame? No.

[InHouston]

Yeah but Bush is still the biggest idiot president we ever had!

I still cant get over the fact that he kept reading to kids in school after hearing the country was under attack on 911.

What a fuckin pussy!

Michael Moore myth. If you watch the actual (unbastardized) raw video footage, the press kept pressing him for a response to the attacks in the classroom, and he hushed the press saying, "We don't want to frighten the kids." As far as him being a pussy, the Secret Service agents kept trying to get him to leave the school so they could whisk him away to a bunker, and he made them wait and wait until he could give a statement to the nation. Then he argued with the agents on Air Force One and demanded to be returned to the White House immediately, but they refused for the safety of the president.

Because he finished reading to the kids while his agents were standing aside sweating and freaking out, that just shows that he wasn't scared at all. However, that's too difficult a concept for you leftys to grasp.

[InHouston]

You stupid bastard liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

That says it all. What do you do with all these stupid leftys? Well ... the nation needs ditch diggers too.

[InHouston]

Is Bush to blame? No. They don't know what caused the collapse yet. But, if because of budget cuts or a pro-profit philosophy, safety regulations were not enforced or violations were overlooked or only given a slap on the wrist, and but for that, the workers would not have died, his administration would be responsible.
FK

The corporation would be responsible dipshit.

[Realgirls4me]

You stupid bastard liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

Your reaching here, dumbfuck. Is he directly responsible for the collapse, or any mine collapse for that matter ? No, and you know that, but he and his cabal of Neocons do embrace a laissez faire, deregulation, lax safety standards, and a ban-unions-at-all-cost philosophy that can lead, foster, or contribute to such disasters. When it's all about making as much money for the CEOs or shareholders, it's safety, progress, and morality be damned.

Here is an example of the latest "strategy" by the rightwingers such as Kramer. Play the dubya victim card first to dilute legitimate criticism he is receiving from all sides for his failed policies and presidency at home and abroad.


Who on the Left is blaming dubya directly, dumbfuck ?

[Realgirls4me]

The corporation would be responsible dipshit.

The dumbfuck-in-charge wants to limit accountability, liability, and compensation for victims of such corporations remember, dipshit ? Life has suddenly become cheaper and expendible with morons like dubya and a Republican Congress in charge.

[Felicia Katt]

Another bitter personal attack. You just can't stick to the facts, can you? I post information and you post insults. I never said the Corporation wasn't responsible. But if the agency that is supposed to be a watch dog is turned into a lapdog and doesn't enforce saftey regulations, that could have kept the miners alive, that agency bears responsibility too.

as far as Bush goes, show us this so-called raw footage. Because we have all seen the tape, and it would take Industrial Light and Magic to change the chicken we saw into the eagle you claim he is.

FK

[InHouston]

Another bitter personal attack. You just can't stick to the facts, can you? I post information and you post insults. I never said the Corporation wasn't responsible. But if the agency that is supposed to be a watch dog is turned into a lapdog and doesn't enforce saftey regulations, that could have kept the miners alive, that agency bears responsibility too.

as far as Bush goes, show us this so-called raw footage. Because we have all seen the tape, and it would take Industrial Light and Magic to change the chicken we saw into the eagle you claim he is.
FK

I'm not gonna debate these delusional points with you, because its boring. I saw the raw footage (interestingly enough) straight from CNN's archives. You seem to have no problem finding all your talking points on Wikipedia, Rottom.com, and Slopes.com. You're on the same Internet I'm on. Find the video yourself.

[chefmike]

You stupid bastard liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

Your mom likes liberals, you stupid bastard liberal... :lol: :lol:

[InHouston]

The corporation would be responsible dipshit.

The dumbfuck-in-charge wants to limit accountability, liability, and compensation for victims of such corporations remember, dipshit ? Life has suddenly become cheaper and expendible with morons like dubya and a Republican Congress in charge.

:sleep Yawn

[Realgirls4me]

Your predictable freeper shit bores me also, dipshit Houston. When reality hits you in the face, there's always that denial card up your sleeve, right ?

By the way, care to share with us in here where you get your "information" ?

[TrueBeauty TS]

I'm not gonna debate these delusional points with you, because its boring. I saw the raw footage (interestingly enough) straight from CNN's archives. You seem to have no problem finding all your talking points on Wikipedia, Rottom.com, and Slopes.com. You're on the same Internet I'm on. Find the video yourself.


Translation - "I don't have any facts to back up anything I say, so I'll just stick to personally insulting people and trying desperately to convince everyone how smart I am."

[InHouston]

I'm not gonna debate these delusional points with you, because its boring. I saw the raw footage (interestingly enough) straight from CNN's archives. You seem to have no problem finding all your talking points on Wikipedia, Rottom.com, and Slopes.com. You're on the same Internet I'm on. Find the video yourself.


Translation - "I don't have any facts to back up anything I say, so I'll just stick to personally insulting people and trying desperately to convince everyone how smart I am."

Yet another brilliant conclusion courtesy of the liberal left. :moon

[The American Nightmare]

I'm not gonna debate these delusional points with you, because its boring. I saw the raw footage (interestingly enough) straight from CNN's archives. You seem to have no problem finding all your talking points on Wikipedia, Rottom.com, and Slopes.com. You're on the same Internet I'm on. Find the video yourself.


Translation - "I don't have any facts to back up anything I say, so I'll just stick to personally insulting people and trying desperately to convince everyone how smart I am."
Exactly.

Reminds you of Bill O'Reilly, huh?

[Felicia Katt]

I'm not gonna debate these delusional points with you, because its boring. I saw the raw footage (interestingly enough) straight from CNN's archives. You seem to have no problem finding all your talking points on Wikipedia, Rottom.com, and Slopes.com. You're on the same Internet I'm on. Find the video yourself.
Once again, you ignore the very wide variety of sources I've used. Even if I only used the sources you claim, if they were inaccurate, it should be an easy matter for you to counter them with the correct information. Something you have refused to do. You then state something that is totally contrary to everyone's understanding of just how Bush reacted and then refuse to even provide a link? You criticize my sources, but at least I provide them. And I'll provide yours too.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.mov

I watched it and what I saw is what everyone else saw, Bush sitting in the class room, reading a story with kids, for several minutes after being told about the attacks. If you saw him conferring with the Secret Service during those several minutes, you are the one who is deluded. Just like Andrew Card, Bush's Chief of Staff who gave this account


"So I was very uncomfortable about interrupting the president during one of his events ... so I wanted to think, how can I convey to the president the situation? And I made a conscious decision to state the facts and to offer editorial comment. And the facts, as I knew them, were -- since he knew about the first plane, I said, "a second plane hit the second tower." Those were the facts. And the editorial comment was, "America is under attack."

I said those things into the president's right ear, and I stepped back, because I did not want to invite a discussion from the classroom. But I tried to be succinct in what I told him so that he understood the enormity of the problem. He looked up -- it was only a matter of seconds, but it seemed like minutes -- and I thought that he was outstanding in his ability not to scare either the American people that were paying attention to the cameras or, more importantly, the students that were in the classroom.

And he just excused himself very politely to the teacher and to the students, and he left. (emphasis added)

It was a matter of seconds. like over 300 of them.

How Bush reacted was also reported by a highly pro-Bush Author Bill Sammon. Publishers Weekly described Sammon's book Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism - From Inside the Bush White House as an "inside account of the Bush administration's reaction to 9-11 [and] a breathless, highly complimentary portrait of the president [showing] the great merit and unwavering moral vision of his inner circle." According to Sammon Bush is described as smiling and chatting with the children "as if he didn't have a care in the world" and "in the most relaxed manner imaginable." White House aide Gordon Johndroe, then came in as he usually does at the end of press conferences, and said, "Thank you, press. If you could step out the door we came in, please." A reporter then asked, "Mr. President, are you aware of the reports of the plane crash in New York? Is there anything...", But Bush interrupted, and no doubt recalling his order, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET," Bush responded, "I'll talk about it later." But still the president did not leave. "He stepped forward and shook hands with [classroom teacher] Daniels, slipping his left hand behind her in another photo-op pose. He was taking his good old time. ... Bush lingered until the press was gone." [Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism - From Inside the Bush White House, by Bill Sammon, 10/02, p. 90]

Those who do not remember history are supposed to be doomed to relive it, not free to rewrite it.

For the record on the issue, I didn't blame Bush for the mine disaster, I said they were still investigating. But when a mine has 192 violations and 38 accidents in a year, which is nearly 3 times as many violations and twice as many accidents as the year before, yet only is assessed 24,000.00 in fines against 134 million in revenues, something is not right. By the way, my source for these facts was the Associated Press.

You seem to think that if Bush didn't physically cause the mine explosion, that ends all discussion as to ultimate responsibility for 12 deaths. If the police let a drunk driver go because he is politcally connected, are they blameless if he kills someone in an accident? Or to put this in terms you can better relate to, if a prisoner on a weekend furlough kills someone, who is responsible, the prisoner, or the Democratic governor of Mass.?

FK

[TrueBeauty TS]

For the record on the issue, I didn't blame Bush for the mine disaster, I said they were still investigating. But when a mine has 192 violations and 38 accidents in a year, which is nearly 3 times as many violations and twice as many accidents as the year before, yet only is assessed 24,000.00 in fines against 134 million in revenues, something is not right. By the way, my source for these facts was the Associated Press.
FK


I just heard on the news that this was a non-union mine. I wonder if that had anything to do with such high safety violations? If it was a union mine, would there have been better or more safety measures taken? Makes you wonder.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

I found this while going through my news feeds

Mine had hundreds of violations By Alan Levin, Thomas Frank and Paul Overberg, USA TODAY
Thu Jan 5, 7:19 AM ET



The West Virginia coal mine where an underground explosion left 12 miners dead and another with serious injuries had been cited for hundreds of federal safety violations since it opened in 1999, government records show.


Among the infractions were at least 16 related to failures to prevent or adequately monitor the buildup of explosive gases in the mine.


Authorities have not determined what caused the explosion that trapped the miners Monday. Labor Secretary Elaine Chao said the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) was investigating to "determine the cause of this tragedy and will take the necessary steps to ensure that this never happens again."


Methane gas, which is often present in coal mines, is the most likely culprit, said Jim Weeks, an occupational hygiene and health consultant who has worked on mining issues for more than 20 years.


History of infractions


Government records show that the mine - owned by Anker Coal until it was sold to International Coal Group in November - had been cited repeatedly for not having an adequate ventilation plan and for violating rules requiring safety inspections before each eight-hour shift:


• The number of infractions issued to the Sago Mine last year was "higher than would be normally issued to a mine that size," said Ray McKinney, administrator for the coal division of the MSHA. Since 2000, the incidence of injuries at Sago was also higher than average - more than twice the national rate, MSHA data show.


• Nine times in the past year, the mine was cited for failing to properly enact a "mine ventilation plan," according to MSHA records. The regulatory agency considered three of those violations "significant and substantial." Proper ventilation is one of the key safety measures to prevent fires and explosions, Weeks said.


• Seven times last year, MSHA cited the mine for failing to properly conduct a "pre-shift examination," the safety inspection mandated before each shift of workers is allowed to enter the mine. Monitoring methane gas is required during such an examination.


"The mine workers look at the pre-shift examination as one of the most important activities that the mine operator has got to perform," said Tim Baker, deputy administrator for health and safety at the United Mine Workers of America. "We look at that as an absolutely crucial first step of any mining operation."


• The mine had extensive safety problems that led the agency to close parts of it 18 times last year, McKinney said. Federal law does not allow MSHA to close portions of a mine that are not affected by safety problems, said Robert Friend, the acting MSHA chief.


The number of closures is far higher than is typical, said Tony Oppegard, a former state prosecutor on mine safety issues in Kentucky.


"That's very unusual and a red flag that there's some safety problems at that mine," Oppegard said.


More hours by inspectors


Federal inspectors spent 744 hours at the Sago Mine last year, compared with 405 hours in 2004, MSHA's McKinney said. "An 84% increase in on-site hours shows that our folks were concerned and actually walked the walk," McKinney said. After sections were closed, the mine operators had to correct problems before they could reopen those areas of the mine, he said.


In all, the Sago Mine received 276 violations in 2004 and 2005, including 120 that were considered "significant and substantial." During that time, the government sought $33,600 in fines. Of that, the companies paid $23,986.


Compared with three other similar-sized mines in West Virginia, the Sago Mine had far more violations during that period, a USA TODAY analysis found. The Argus Energy Deep Mine No. 8 in Wayne County, for instance, had 156 violations, 120 fewer than Sago. The three other mines also had fewer accidents, according to MHSA data. Sago had 40 accidents in 2005. The most at any of the other mines was 12, records show.


The United Mine Workers union contends that the federal government has lessened its enforcement of mining safety regulations in recent years. And despite problems at the mine, the highest proposed fine issued by the government last year was $440 for one of the ventilation violations. Many of the violations prompted $60 fines.

"If I go down the street in Washington, D.C., at 10 mph over the speed limit, I'm going to get much higher fine than that," union official Baker said.

The mine began operating in 1999, was closed in 2002 and then reopened in early 2004 amid growing global demand for coal-based energy. International Coal Group acquired it from Anker in November, MSHA records show.

Ben Hatfield, CEO of International Coal Group, said at a news conference Tuesday that the mine has "operated for some significant time before my company even had involvement with it. So much of the bad history that you're talking about was beyond our reach and ability to control."

Coal mine fatalities have dropped dramatically over the past century from a high of 3,242 in 1907 to a record low 22 in 2005, MSHA records show. The coal industry also has shrunk to just more than 100,000 workers, but the fatality rate today is a fraction of what it was at the industry's peak of 863,000 workers in 1923.

The injury rate in the coal-mining industry was barely above the national workplace injury rate in 2004, the most recent year for which Labor Department data are available. Coal-mine employees suffered 5.6 work-related injuries or illnesses per 100 employees, compared with 4.8 injuries and illnesses for the entire private-sector workforce.

A word about Violations though. the Sabo mine had 276 violation in 2004-05. Violations can and do contain things like light bulbs being burned out and other things as well as the serious stuff. That came from a friend of mine that used to work at a coal mine.

What caught my eye as well as his was how much time the feds spent at that mine. They aren't going to keep coming back over a burned out light bulb.


you know inhouston all in all you're allowed your political views but in your first post you went WAYYYY out of your way to attack Felicia. Why were you so upset? Was it because she didn't do 3 bows before your almighty God Bush? Or by chance was it she wasn't struck down for her "Taking Bush's name in vain?" Of which she didn't do, and if she did so what it is a free country.

Inhouston you are like the rest of the Bushites out there in my opinion. Are a sorry bunch of sore winners. You people cannot stand the fact you won.... why?

[likemdom]

There's a major traffic jamb in NY, cars are stacked bumper to bumper for miles. A woman is sitting patiently in her car and notices someone going car to car asking for donations.

When the man taking donations comes to her window she asks what's going on. The man replies, "haven't you heard? Some terrorists have taken President Bush hostage and are threatening to douse him with gasoline and light him on fire if they do not receive 10 million dollars in cash."

The woman in the car asks, "how much are people donating?"

The man replies, "most people are giving at least a gallon."