Why Obama Should Not Have Had To Show His Papers

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Perfectly said.

msnbc.com Video Player (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42792114#42792114)

[trish]

Perfectly, insightfully and accurately.

[nonnonnon]

is American a race?

[TJ347]

Obama didn't have to show his papers; he chose to. It won't matter at all, as people convinced he wasn't a citizen to begin with will simply say his papers are fraudulent, but despite knowing that in advance he and his people still thought it worthwhile to show them. That's no one's fault but his.

[trish]

...he and his people still thought it worthwhile to show them. That's no one's fault but his. Utter nonsense. What determines whether an action is worth taking the political circumstances surrounding the contemplated action. The Tea-Bagging Party, Trump and others are part of those circumstances.

[TJ347]

His birth certificate had already been made available quite some time ago. Anyone who didn't already believe he was a citizen certainly isn't going to become a believer based on this latest presentation of evidence to the contrary. Blame Trump and whoever else, but this man is already president and was under no obligation whatsoever to show his birth certificate. That he did so was his decision, and the only nonsense here is to pretend there were any circumstances forcing his hand.

[trish]

Anyone who didn't already believe he was a citizen certainly isn't going to become a believer based on this latest presentation of evidence to the contrary.Recent events call this hypothesis into question. Before the disclosure of the "long form" certificate nearly half of republicans either didn't believe or questioned the president's citizenship. Virtually no republican leader would come straight out and deny the birthers. That situation has now changed. Everyone makes decisions based on circumstances. Sure, people are responsible for the decisions they make, but to claim decisions spring willy-nilly out of one's head and are not responses to the world of circumstances is ridiculous.

[Stavros]

Apparently the phrase in the Constitution 'natural-born citizen' is the key, but I didn't realise until reading it one of today's papers that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to American parents, as there was at one time a doubt about his eligibility to be in the race. The article argued that immigrants often have a more positive attitude to their new country and should not be barred from standing, again its an historical thing that was designed by the govt to prevent people born in the UK from standing, or so I believe. And also, I think that a candidate can have been born on an army base in Korea, Germany or wherever and still be a 'natural-born citizen', although again, an historical quirk suggests someone who is not 'natural-born' was conceived in a test-tube...??? How else is anyone born?

[trish]

MACBETH
Thou losest labour:
As easy mayst thou the intrenchant air
With thy keen sword impress as make me bleed:
Let fall thy blade on vulnerable crests;
I bear a charmed life, which must not yield,
To one of woman born.
MACDUFF
Despair thy charm;
And let the angel whom thou still hast served
Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother's womb
Untimely ripp'd.
MACBETH Accursed be that tongue that tells me so,
For it hath cow'd my better part of man!
And be these juggling fiends no more believed,
That palter with us in a double sense;
That keep the word of promise to our ear,
And break it to our hope. I'll not fight with thee.

[hippifried]

John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to American parents

Not just American parents. Parents who were out of the US proper because they were in service to the Country. Also, at that time, the Canal Zone was under perpetual lease & considered US territory. Territory works. It was cleared by the Supreme Court in '64, because Barry Goldwater was born in the Arizona Territory befor it was a State. McCain asked for & got a SCOTUS ruling in 2000. Birthplace is the biggest factor.

[bte]

It doesn't matter if he shows his birth certificate. Republicans will move onto another issue about Obama. Today is his birth certificate, tomorrow will be his academic records. There are some republicans that are interested in what classes Obama took in college and what his grades were.

[TJ347]

It doesn't matter if he shows his birth certificate. Republicans will move onto another issue about Obama. Today is his birth certificate, tomorrow will be his academic records. There are some republicans that are interested in what classes Obama took in college and what his grades were.

Just as there were Democrats very interested in uncovering as much as they could about Bush's background previously. Nothing new under the sun.

[hippifried]

...& how many of those do you figure would be willing to put their transcripts up against his?

[Faldur]

Lets not forget the birthers were founded in Hillary Clinton's campaign. This "birther" fanaticism is a democratic cause not republican.

[trish]

Let's not forget that nearly half of republicans, until a few days ago, thought the birthers were or could be correct...not based on fact, but merely to express the social fears, alluded to in the above clip, that seem to plague conservatives in the US.

[robertlouis]

Just as there were Democrats very interested in uncovering as much as they could about Bush's background previously. Nothing new under the sun.

Do you mean showing him as an alcoholic and drug addict as well as a draft dodger?

A myth about a birth certificate looks flimsy in comparison to that lot.

[w1s2x3]

The beauty of Barry being disqualified at birth, not just on his lack luster attempt to even pretend to be a beginner President, is his entire attack on America could be rolled back. No such magic potion exists for the bushes. Of course Barry faces being the Muslim that killed Osama... lol!!!

[Prospero]

The beauty of Barry being disqualified at birth, not just on his lack luster attempt to even pretend to be a beginner President, is his entire attack on America could be rolled back. No such magic potion exists for the bushes. Of course Barry faces being the Muslim that killed Osama... lol!!!

Is this a subtle joke? Or is this poser stark raving bonkers?

[hippifried]

Is this a subtle joke? Or is this poser stark raving bonkers?
There's nothing subtle about being totally crazy. The joke is its existence.

[south ov da border]

Obama's not the first president to not have real papers (look up GHW Bush and Eisenhower or Eisenhauer by birth). Even if they are real, his citizenship to Indonesia should have disqualified him anyway.

The powers that be are glad that this has a racial overtone. He's a fraud in my opinion, but I've read a lot about his family history so it's not a personal feeling to me.

The reason this is coming out now is because it's misdirection from the falling dollar index. I wouldn't be surprised tahat in a 3 months the dollar is sunk to about 60 cents or so...

[robertlouis]

Obama's not the first president to not have real papers (look up GHW Bush and Eisenhower or Eisenhauer by birth). Even if they are real, his citizenship to Indonesia should have disqualified him anyway.

The powers that be are glad that this has a racial overtone. He's a fraud in my opinion, but I've read a lot about his family history so it's not a personal feeling to me.

The reason this is coming out now is because it's misdirection from the falling dollar index. I wouldn't be surprised tahat in a 3 months the dollar is sunk to about 60 cents or so...

Fuck. You don't even know how your own country's laws work.

[robertlouis]

The beauty of Barry being disqualified at birth, not just on his lack luster attempt to even pretend to be a beginner President, is his entire attack on America could be rolled back. No such magic potion exists for the bushes. Of course Barry faces being the Muslim that killed Osama... lol!!!

You need help.

[south ov da border]

here's the thing. Natural born citizen= being born in the country of that which the parents are citizens of. Well he clearly doesn't fit that bill, so what's to argue? Not legit. His half sister has paperwork from Hawaii too, and she wasn't even born there. So let's be real about this. He's not constitutionally eligible. End of story.

But to understand why this hasn't mattered, one needs to look a little further into who his family is and what ties they had. Not a conspiracy nut or anything of the like, just stating what I've come to understand.

He's not the first prez to pull this, but the whole race thing makes it a little harder to just ignore. Eisenhower. Scherf aka Bush. They got away with this type of thing...

[rameses2]

He was too busy with more important things than Birth Certificates...391318

[TJ347]

Lets not forget the birthers were founded in Hillary Clinton's campaign. This "birther" fanaticism is a democratic cause not republican.

True indeed, but Hillary got the "Clinton" pass from the Obamamaniacs. Otherwise, they'd have to accept that they have racists in their own party, which would destroy their concept of reality.

On another note, this whole race issue is oddly amusing to me. Here we have a biracial president and people inadvertently display their own racism by refering to him as "black", as if he has the parentage of a Jesse Jackson, Shirley Chisholm or Al Sharpton. It's even worse though when black people do it, because it continues the policy of extending "honorary membership" to anyone darker than a paper bag who does anything worthy of note, whether they want that membership or not. Tiger Woods, y'all.

[Prospero]

So much insanity in the world.

Obama is not american. Osama is not dead. Israel or India were behind 9/11. America never made it to the moon. Paul McCartney died in 1967... ad nauseum.

Don't you just LOVE the rich vein of madness that inhabits the human condition.

[TJ347]

So much insanity in the world.

Obama is not american. Osama is not dead.

It's easily corrected. Osama was not American. Obama is not dead. All is now right with the world again.

Seriously though, without the nuts, how could you be sure you were sane?

[Faldur]

http://www.cartoonaday.com/images/cartoons/2011/05/trump-certificate-long-form-598x440.jpg

[hippifried]

So much insanity in the world.

Obama is not american. Osama is not dead. Israel or India were behind 9/11. America never made it to the moon. Paul McCartney died in 1967... ad nauseum.

Don't you just LOVE the rich vein of madness that inhabits the human condition.
But but but... PAUL DID DIE! He was in a car crash & lost his hair. It's one of the great conspiratorial coverups of all time. The imposter Paul was a charismatic Catholic. How else do you explain the "Mother Mary" visions? The last Beatle is Ringo. I'm sure the secret cadre of Beatle killers is stalking him as we speak. :hide-1:

Damn I miss 1969.

[trish]

On the third day he shall rise...hang around for forty days getting things in order...and then ascend.

[hippifried]

On the third day he shall rise...hang around for forty days getting things in order...and then ascend.
Well... If you're talking OBL, that'd be a good trick since he's at the bottom of the ocean somewhere, feeding the various scavengers.

If he pulls that off, I'll convert.

[onmyknees]

Do you mean showing him as an alcoholic and drug addict as well as a draft dodger?

A myth about a birth certificate looks flimsy in comparison to that lot.

you're ill informed on this matter. Stick to poetry and English lit...it's your thing.

[onmyknees]

These libs make me laugh my ass off....they cry a fucking river about how Obama is so mistreated and disrespected about the birth certificate yet their memories are about as short as their dicks...You had the most trusted news anchor in America produce and certify false documents on his evening news cast in an attempt to bring down a sitting president ....or at a minimum wound him severely. He was fired and disgraced....and you fuckers are crying about a birth certificate that your guy could have laid on us a year ago but chose not to hoping to make political hay. In addition...every one of you fuckers never saw Bush's second term as legit.... What a hypocritical joke you all are.

[trish]

Bullshit, he made his birth certificate public ages ago. The form that anyone can use to get passport or a visa. It's is a suitable identification for any and all government purposes...just not the purposes of the Tea Bagging Party. Well now you guys are left holding your own asses, and it's not because you laughed them off either.

[onmyknees]

Bullshit, he made his birth certificate public ages ago. The form that anyone can use to get passport or a visa. It's is a suitable identification for any and all government purposes...just not the purposes of the Tea Bagging Party. Well now you guys are left holding your own asses, and it's not because you laughed them off either.

bull fucking shit. Just 3 months ago Tingles Matthews cheered on Gov. Acbecrombie who made a big splash about his life long friend Obama that he was going to put an end to this nonsense and find the original long form certificate....Matthews told him.. "just call over there and get it"...........it never fucking happened so my question for you is why couldn't Tingles Matthews who works for a network that has performed journalistic on Obama for 2 years, and helped usher him into office...and Obama's lifelong friend, turned Governor of the State Barry was born in produce the certificate ? Either they were in on the play....or they just gave up. Riddle me that Trish....... If the Gov. of Hawaii was looking for it 3 months ago....how the fuck did you see it?????? You're talkin' outta your ass. So tell me why Abercrombie couldn't or wouldn't find it????

Your play is stale. Time for an old fashion tea baggin' Trish. LMAO

[trish]

I saw Obama's birth certificate years ago...the form that that is acceptable by the State Department when applying for a passport. But the Tea Bagging Party has higher standards...you numb nuts require the long form. Now you're suffering for it. Let me hear you whine some more. It's music to my ears.

[Faldur]

My 78 year old father sent this over to me yesterday with the title "This is pretty impressive". Dad has been a life long democrat, I got one heck of a laugh out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9StxsFllY&feature=player_embedded

For goodness sakes if your trying to put peoples fears at ease flatten the fricking image before you release it.

[nonnonnon]

he could have our certificate deleted. I would hope the leader of the free world could pull something together

[trish]

The stronger the evidence, the greater the amount of crazy required to defeat it.

[Faldur]

The stronger the evidence, the greater the amount of crazy required to defeat it.

Echo..Echo..Echo..
Now batting for the..Now batting for the..Now batting for the..

[Prospero]

Truly astonishing the amount of embedded racism in American political life.

Once upon a time right wing politics reflected a decent agenda - albeit one that many (including me) would argue with. But now it is increasingly the preserve of haters and lunatics. God help us.

[Faldur]

Truly astonishing the amount of embedded racism in American political life.

Thats the biggest line of bullshit to hit this board. I think you also forgot to call us trolls too. Where do you find racism? Where in this thread have you seen someone make a racist comment? Or are you now expanding the definition of racism to include anyone making arguments against a man or woman of color.

Post an example, you cannot find one. Take your emotional lines of bullshit elsewhere.

[Prospero]

Faldur... the whole birther movement, the whole unamerican accusation against Obama is clearly a hatred of him because he is a man of colour. Sorry that is clear to most people.

Methinks the violence of your response is the sound of a nail being ht on the head.

[Faldur]

Lol, I thought so. Big difference between political opposition and racism. Keep coming back, you might get it someday.

[Prospero]

LOL - I thought you were not tainte with the idiocy of some here. maybe not. Political opposition is fine - but this nonsense about where Obama was born - that reeks of racism. Oppose his policies not his race ... or put your Klan hood on,

[nonnonnon]

even for a president, he seems to get special treatment.
Throughout the decade of Bush, they loved to compare him to an ape in appearance and demeanor as you can see with a quick google search. When a cartoonist does a caricature of Obama and exaggerates his big ears that stick out (which I also suffer from :( ) it's a public outrage.
Don't like gay marriage?
Leery of socialized medicine?
Scared of his old preacher?
Wonder if the leader of your country is even from here?

http://ryanexplainsitall.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/thats-racist.gif

[Faldur]

Not sure where you are going with that Non..

Are you saying opposing gay marriage is racist?

And by your criteria, depicting someone with big ears in a satirical cartoon with big ears would mean every cartoonist in history has been a racist.

[Prospero]

I think noonnooo applied the racism charge to the final of the litany he or she listed

[Faldur]

Big ears, not racist..

http://www.gibbleguts.com/funny/wp-content/uploads/iraq_bush.gif

Big ears, racist...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/krizzii/prwhgfHbxvtdmsGrIHuAebtIcCcxcDCfjoJjDtbodJcuDgbDJD BcDdafscgv/media_httpthechronicleheraldcatoonsBrucex11jpg_rlj kGkCJxHGudtj.jpg.scaled1000.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKI AJFZAE65UYRT34AOQ&Expires=1304616053&Signature=XHQXejJcrYCVUz6kRlaX3M33Jjo%3D

:confused:

[Prospero]

I agree big ears are not racist - nor are jokes, criticisms or whatever levelled against Obama on a wide range of topics. But this spurious attack on his nationality is - IN MY OPINION - racist.

[Silcc69]

So when will we see a black republican presidential candidate? That is when the GOP will no longer be considered racist but of course I have heard that people in hell want ice water to. And someone mentioned about Obama being biracial? I guess we forgot about the 1 drop rule.

[Faldur]

Ok, I'm just trying to understand the superior wisdom on display here. So the republicans will no longer be racist as soon as they have a black presidential candidate. Can you really be serious? Or that dense?

[trish]

I agree big ears are not racist - nor are jokes, criticisms or whatever levelled against Obama on a wide range of topics. But this spurious attack on his nationality is - IN MY OPINION - racist.Oh...that's not your opinion, that's fact. Of course Faldur doesn't agree because he doesn't think he's racist and he's thinking that he's a typical republican (a suspect assumption for one posting on a transsexual porn forum).

[Silcc69]

Ok, I'm just trying to understand the superior wisdom on display here. So the republicans will no longer be racist as soon as they have a black presidential candidate. Can you really be serious? Or that dense?

Shit it will not hurt them there party doesnt have to be so damn white washed anyways.

[Faldur]

Well I'm not going to get into we had the "first black ______". Personally I believe to classify people in that manner is racist. I don't consider the NBA racist, but using the criteria of the progressives on this board the NBA would be the equivalent of the black KKK. The NBA puts the best athletes they can in uniform, without prejudice of race.

Yes Trish it is my opinion, and I know whole heartedly I am no racist. I dare you to find one instance I have ever made a statement contrary to that. Progressives with flimsy arguments turn to the only tools they feel are effective, unsubstantiated name calling. Your free to do that all you like, but you will never change the facts with lies or slander.

[trish]

Yes Trish it is my opinion, and I know whole heartedly I am no racist.Never said you were or weren't. Don't make an diversion of an issue that doesn't exist. What I said is that you think you aren't and that you assume you're a typical republican or tea-bagger in that regard.

[Faldur]

My bad, misunderstood this statement, "Of course Faldur doesn't agree because he doesn't think he's racist".

Oh, and I am not a republican. I am a conservative.

[trish]

My bad, misunderstood this statement, "Of course Faldur doesn't agree because he doesn't think he's racist".My bad as well, I can understand the you taking it the way you did.

[onmyknees]

So when will we see a black republican presidential candidate? That is when the GOP will no longer be considered racist but of course I have heard that people in hell want ice water to. And someone mentioned about Obama being biracial? I guess we forgot about the 1 drop rule.


By who you?? Your opinion hardly matters. You're hardly the arbitrator of who's racist. You, and most of your progressives pals see racists behind every tree and use it as a political tool to your everlasting shame . Every time you can't answer a charge, or don't like the tone the words racist cross your lips. It's laughable and meaningless...really.

You print this and save this my race baiting counterpart....In 2 years when Col. Alan West has some political expierence under his belt, you'll see these racist tea partiers take a bullet for this black man.....me included. Or wouldn't he be black enough suit you? It's about policies and politics...not race. Grow up....

[TJ347]

So when will we see a black republican presidential candidate? That is when the GOP will no longer be considered racist but of course I have heard that people in hell want ice water to. And someone mentioned about Obama being biracial? I guess we forgot about the 1 drop rule.

Actually, there already was a black Republican candidate named Alan Keyes... I'm not sure if he was the first, but he was certainly the most recent. This is not to say that it would matter one bit if he was the Republican nominee. You know as well as I do that Democrats, blacks especially, would just dismiss him as a "token" and an "Uncle Tom". When I hear people talk about how racist the GOP is, I remind them of a comment made by Harry Reid that they've since erased from their memories. Do you recall that comment about Barack Obama? Oh, how soon we forget when doing so is necessary to support the "Republicans are racist" bullshit... And that's all that it is. I'm sure John Kerry and Eric Cantor both would claim to have "black friends" but would be hard-pressed to present them if challenged to do so.

As to the "one drop rule", as I said before, you can't selectively employ racism when you think it favors you. Thus, if you use a racist belief like the "one drop rule" to convince yourself Obama is an African American, you must accept that an African American is three-fifths a person. It is interesting that though neither has legal force today, black people now wish to cling to the "one drop rule" in order to have a "black" president. It's interesting, but it's also sad and shameful. Biracial is easily defined, and it's what Obama is.

[yodajazz]

"Biracial" means that Obama is half Black, thus Blacks have the right to identify with him. Not only was the marriage of his mother and father illegal in some states when he was born, he did not have the right to eat at certain restaurant, or even to drink water, at every public water fountain, or had to sit in certain sections of public facilities. Ok, so now he can do such things, as can all. But Blacks cant help but identify with a person who would have had to live through the same discrimination as they, had we lived in a different time.

One more thing, its not about skin color, why Blacks overwhelmingly support Democrats, at this time. It's about typical held Republican views. Take for example, the typically held Republican/Conservative position that 'big government' is bad. This generally refers to the federal government. But Black with a sense of history, understands that it was the Federal government, that interceded to grant Blacks human rights, denied by the private sector, and even states. I went to college, with the aid of federal funding, so the issue is not one relgated to history.

Lets look at a recent event. Typically held Conservative/Repub views, is that government interference is holding back business innovation. The Bush II adminstration reflected this philosophy by relaxing regulatory oversight. The financial industry took this time, to blanket the Black community, looking for unsophisticated, people to get home equity loans. I am not saying they did not try other communities either. But the term "predatory lending" has become to be called of the recent practice. Our communties are now devestated. So I am saying this is also the picture of 'business innovation' in the Black community. And after all this devestation some Republicans in Congress, talk about trying to repeal financial overhaul regulations, enacted to prevent the same scenario from repeating.

So while many Blacks cant help but indentify with Obama's racial heritage, their support is not just because of his skin color.

[Faldur]

And how has all that nanny give aways worked out for the black community?

60% of black children grow up in fatherless homes.
800,000 black men are in jail or prison
70% of black babies are born to unwed mothers
Over 300,000 black babies are aborted annually
50% of new AIDS cases are in the black community
Almost half of young black men in America's cities are neither working nor in school

The liberal social programs have really done nothing more than to continue to enslave the black community. Conservatives want all people to succeed. We do not wish to create a dependent society. Show me one "well meaning" social program that has ever helped anyone to rise above there adversity.

[hippifried]

So Faldur, did you pick up those numbers from klan-on-the-web, nor did you just pull them out of your ass?

[Stavros]

I dont know if any of you remember the case that a man called Bakke brought against the University of California-Davis, whose medical school rejected his application even though he was qualified, while admitting less qualfied candidates on a quota system to admit more minorities. I mention it because when I briefly looked at Affirmative Action when I was an undergraduate, I read that it was women who had benefitted most from the various AA schemes that covered education, and jobs in the public sector.

I think that LBJ's War on Poverty was at one time considered a failure and largely because it tried to tackle too many things in a bureaucratic way with inadequate funding and staffing-yet the Head Start programme has now been considered a success, in that more pupils have been able to read and write, attend school more often and so on.
From what I know, a lot of the African Americans in prison are there for the most absurd reasons -shoplifting three times and then prison? If prison wasn't such a lucrative business would there be so many people inside? We also have too many people costing the taxpayers thousands a year, for crimes that dont warrant a custodial sentence.
These are not difficult issues to discuss, but when statistics are rolled out to isolate one group from another, I find myself irritated at the lack of scholarship -yes, there are too many one-parent families -mostly white in the UK- and families too dependent on welfare, but beyond the stereotypes the details dont always match up. I read somewhere that Afro-Caribbeans and Africans do well in the US; that Koreans in Japan do badly; and so on. The signal point must be whether or not Affirmative Actions programmes work -they may be too expensive and in some cases not properly managed, but the evidence does suggest they do help -in which case it is better than nothing.

[Faldur]

So Faldur, did you pick up those numbers from klan-on-the-web, nor did you just pull them out of your ass?

Come on Hippi you keep telling us your a smart guy, start proving it. Here is a hint for you, start at Star Parker's Coalition of Urban Renewal (CURE). I know it's a radical white supremacist site but I find the statistics they have useful.

And as anyone here knows, i never pull anything out of my ass.. do your homework son.

[hippifried]

Yeah Faldur, I don't care who's ass you pull that shit from. It's still bogus. Everybody who's reading any part of this is looking at a computer on line. Y'all can't get away with this kind of crap anymore.


Stavros,
A couple of things:
The only reason Bakke had any kind of case was because the university was trying to pad their enrolment. Bakke won that case, & there really hasn't been any affirmative action programs since that haven't been challenged. That was 35 years ago. I doubt if there's a half dozen university students nationwide who've actually witnessed affirmative action. It was supposed to be a temporary measure anyway, to give a kick start to losing the traditional discrimination in the decade after the Civil Rights Act. It worked. The only reason it existed was because too many institutions were trying to keep discrimination institutional. It was all court ordered. I don't believe "affirmative action" was ever legislated anywhere. The incessant whining over it is nothing but a red herring. The majority of whiners weren't even born yet when Bakke came down. It's a non-issue.

The "war on poverty" worked too. People look at things today & assume it must have been like that in '64. Not so. It wasn't about color either. It was the abject poverty, lack of clothing & shelter, & malnutrition among white folks in Appalachia that got it going. It was like a 3rd world country within the borders of the US. It's been over 45 years since the program got started. It's not a problem either, or the cause of any.

There's no culture war. You can probably list the hardcore commies in this country in the space of one segment in a small market yellow pages. The entire "birther" insanity was never anything but a bunch of crap to appeal to the klan & klan sympathizers. There's still a lot of idiots who buy into the idea of racial inferiority or superiority. It's pitiful that some folks are that insecure, but I'm all out of sympathy & don't care if they're mentally challenged.

[Faldur]

Yeah Faldur, I don't care who's ass you pull that shit from. It's still bogus. Everybody who's reading any part of this is looking at a computer on line.

Good! And I hope that they are all smart enough to check facts that anyone posts here. Anyone who believes what they read on a "transexual" political forum without fact checking it deserves the bullshit they get.

Might I recommend for your reading pleasure "Uncle Sam's Plantation", written by Star Parker. You might learn something if you open your mind and read more than the Huffington Puffington Post.

[trish]

Uncle Sam's Plantation eh? So your one of those assholes who thinks he's a slave. :rolleyes: Next you'll be wanting reparations! That's what tax breaks are to you aren't they? Reparations. LOL

[Faldur]

Next you'll be wanting reparations!


Give the girl a prize she has hit it on the nose!!!! :dancing:

[Tomahawkinit]

So Faldur, did you pick up those numbers from klan-on-the-web, nor did you just pull them out of your ass?

I think they got the numbers from FauxNews.

[natina]

THATS THE WHITE DOMINATE NARRATIVE OF THE STORY :iagree:

YouTube - Tim Wise on the "Dominant Narrative" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyeK7mcestg)

Tim Wise - The Pathology of White Privilege (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3812249801848706206)#

YouTube - Tim Wise: On White Privilege (Clip) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc)


YouTube - TIM WISE- INSTITUTIONAL RACISM IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IS REAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C55zE_qJd2g)

YouTube - Tim Wise-institutional racism, labor, prison education (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-VEWJncnsk)


http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dvd-150-whiteprivilege.png

And how has all that nanny give aways worked out for the black community?

60% of black children grow up in fatherless homes.
800,000 black men are in jail or prison
70% of black babies are born to unwed mothers
Over 300,000 black babies are aborted annually
50% of new AIDS cases are in the black community
Almost half of young black men in America's cities are neither working nor in school

The liberal social programs have really done nothing more than to continue to enslave the black community. Conservatives want all people to succeed. We do not wish to create a dependent society. Show me one "well meaning" social program that has ever helped anyone to rise above there adversity.

[natina]

YouTube - Tim Wise on the "Dominant Narrative" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyeK7mcestg)

YouTube - Talk - Tim Wise on White Privilege (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA)

YouTube - The White Conspiracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7h08wL5Z2w)

YouTube - What is White Privilege? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ONuBBmRRpM)

[natina]

WHITE GUYS HAVE THE HIGHEST HIV RATE
ON THE PLANET

And the trend is not confined to the United States: researchers in the U.K. and Europe have also noted the increase, reported British newspaper The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/07/young-gay-men-hiv-epidemic) on Sept. 7. "By investigating the genetic profile of the virus in more than 500 newly screened patients over nine years, scientists in Belgium have identified clusters of people with type B virus--not the one that is most prevalent in Africa," The Guardian reported. "Those infected are almost all white, male, gay and young," the article continued.

The researchers noted that, "Members of this cluster are significantly younger than the rest of the population and have more chlamydia and syphilis infections," the article said.


"Those infected are almost all white, male, gay and young," the article continued


The AIDS crisis that ravaged the gay community in cities like New York and San Francisco may be less visible, but it is still raging, health experts earn--and a new wave of HIV infections may be about to crest.

For some time, researchers have noted that despite efforts to promote safer sex, HIV rates are climbing among young gay men. So are rates for other sexually transmitted diseases, such as syphilis; unfortunately, individuals already infected with one STI may be at an elevated risk for contracting others, including HIV.

While some of the blame may rest with younger gays not having access to safer sex messages, a perception among young MSMs (men who have sex with men) that AIDS is no longer a serious health concern may also be driving the increased incidence in HIV. Most serious of all, however, is a tendency toward unsafe sex and other risky behaviors, such as drug use, which affect judgment and may lead to more unsafe sex-and a higher rate of HIV infection.

And the trend is not confined to the United States: researchers in the U.K. and Europe have also noted the increase, reported British newspaper The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/07/young-gay-men-hiv-epidemic) on Sept. 7. "By investigating the genetic profile of the virus in more than 500 newly screened patients over nine years, scientists in Belgium have identified clusters of people with type B virus--not the one that is most prevalent in Africa," The Guardian reported. "Those infected are almost all white, male, gay and young," the article continued.

The researchers noted that, "Members of this cluster are significantly younger than the rest of the population and have more chlamydia and syphilis infections," the article said.

That is not to say that heterosexuals do not also face the risk of contracting HIV; overall, just under half of the new cases of HIV in Britain were gay men, but straights were also getting infected. One main difference was that while gays seemed to be getting infected without traveling to other countries, heterosexuals--who were picking up a different strain of the virus--seemed to be contracting the virus while abroad, the article said.

"Gay men are still the most at risk of HIV infection in the UK," said Nick Partridge, the head of British AIDS charity the Terrence Higgins Trust. "We also know that more than a quarter of people with HIV in the UK are currently undiagnosed, and they’re far more likely to pass the virus on than those who know they have it."

The Belgian study, which looked at HIV trends in Britain and Europe, was carried out by researchers at Ghent University. But health experts in the United States also cautioned that HIV remains a serious health threat here.

In a Sept. 3 release from New York-based Gay Men’s Health Crisis (GMHC), Dr. Marjorie Hill, the group’s CEO, warned, "A new wave of HIV infections is about to hit New York and we had all better get ready for it," and went on to echo that one major concern is the number of people living with HIV who have not gotten tested, and so don’t know that they have it.

However, Dr. Hill continued, a new state law requiring routine HIV testing is likely to lead to a sharp uptick in reported new cases. "Previously, patients were required to sign a separate written consent form in order to get tested for HIV," explained Dr. Hill. "Now, if you agree to a quick swab test, you will only have to give oral consent.

"When undergoing routine medical procedures or check-ups, you will be offered a standard HIV blood test to sign off on along with the battery of tests that most patients receive. Once you give your consent, it stays in effect for all your future blood tests," Hill added, going on to cite the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as projecting an estimate that says "100,000 people in New York City alone are currently living with HIV infection, but more than 25,000 of them do not know it."

Added Hill, "Most of these unknowing carriers of HIV feel and look healthy and are, in most respects. But they are missing out on treatments that could prevent them from progressing to AIDS. Plus, they are in danger of transmitting the virus to others, continuing to fuel the epidemic."

One crucial benefit of testing is that the sooner HIV+ individuals know their status, the sooner they can begin taking medication to keep the virus in check. Though there is no cure for HIV, modern treatment regimens can help many HIV+ people keep their viral loads down to undetectable levels, meaning that they have a better chance at a normal life span. But early treatment is the key, a Chicago specialist in HIV/AIDS, Dr. James Sullivan (http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=&sc3=&id=109750), said recently.


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52375&page=4 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52375&page=4)
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52375&page=4 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52375&page=4)

[natina]

YouTube - The Underprivileged White Male (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jaH_hmnrPU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL)


Tim Wise has explained well this common symptom of learning to be white:

Racism and white privilege/supremacy generates a mindset of entitlement among those in the dominant group. This entitlement mentality can prove dangerous, whenever the expectations of a member of the group are frustrated. Principally this is because such persons develop very weak coping skills as a result of never having to overcome the obstacles that oppressed folks deal with every day and MUST conquer in order to survive.


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=350239&stc=1&d=1287825825 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=350240&stc=1&d=1287825878 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=350241&stc=1&d=1287825917





http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=50950


http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dvd-150-whiteprivilege.png



http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/book-150-whitelikeme.png


http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/book-150-speaking.png

[natina]

TIM WISE
talks about white violence because of the coping factor
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/10/suffer-from-privilege-induced-lack-of.html (http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/10/suffer-from-privilege-induced-lack-of.html)



Has Black Friday arrived in America? If so, are you prepared?

Actually, if you're a "white" American, there's a good chance that you're less prepared than other Americans. Emotionally that, is. And mentally. Maybe even physically.

As is so often the case, Tim Wise has explained well this common symptom of learning to be white:

Racism and white privilege/supremacy generates a mindset of entitlement among those in the dominant group. This entitlement mentality can prove dangerous, whenever the expectations of a member of the group are frustrated. Principally this is because such persons develop very weak coping skills as a result of never having to overcome the obstacles that oppressed folks deal with every day and MUST conquer in order to survive.

So, as a result, it is the privileged (the beneficiaries of racism, and also, it should be pointed out, the class system) who are ill-prepared for setback: the loss of a job, stocks taking a nose-dive (who were the folks jumping out the windows in the great depression–not poor folks and folks of color, but rich whites who couldn’t handle being broke!) Likewise, if you look at the various personal pathologies that tend to be disproportionate in the white community (and upper middle class for that matter), they are interesting in that they all are about control–controlling one’s anxiety, emotional pain, or controlling and dominating others–like suicide, substance abuse, eating disorders, self-injury/mutilation, serial killing and mass murder (as opposed to just regular one-on-one homicide), sexual sadism killings, etc.

Not knowing how the world works is dangerous. White privilege and racism allow the dominant group to live in a bubble of unreality. Most days that’s no big deal I suppose. But every now and then reality intrudes on you and if you haven’t been expecting it, the trauma is magnified. So, when 9/11 happened, millions of whites were running around saying “why do they hate us?” because whites have never had to see our nation the way others do–we’ve been able to live in la-la land.

But folks of color didn’t say this, because those without privilege HAVE to know what others think about them. Not to do so is to be in perpetual danger. So whites flipped out, and by virtue of being unprepared, pushed for a policy response (war) that folks of color were HIGHLY skeptical of from the beginning. But whites, enthralled by our sense of righteousness (itself a manifestation of privilege), pushed forward, convinced that the war in Iraq would go swimmingly. How’s that working out?
In other words, racism and privilege generate mentalities and policies that are dysfunctional, even deadly for whites as with folks of color. Folks of color are the first victims, to be sure, and the worst. But as someone else said, what goes around. . .
Privilege creates a false sense of security. Being the dominant group can set you up for a fall, can prevent you from building up the coping skills needed to deal with setback, because so often those skills are ones you just don't need.
Until you do, that is.


[This quotation is adapted from two sources: a comment Tim Wise wrote at Resist Racism (http://resistracism.wordpress.com/2007/10/29/how-does-racism-harm-white-people/), and one of his books, White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son (http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9781933368993-0). Lyrics (http://www.steelydan.com/lyrkaty.html#track1) for Steely Dan's song "Black Friday"]



This is a clip from The Pathology of Privilege: Racism, White Denial & the Costs of Inequality, the newly released video from the Media Education Foundation. The video is of a speech given by Tim Wise at Mt. Holyoke College, October 1, 2007.



The Pathology of Privilege: Racism, White Denial & the Costs of Inequality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc)


http://www.redroom.com/video/tim-wise-creation-whiteness-clip (http://www.redroom.com/video/tim-wise-creation-whiteness-clip)


more complete video but has relatedlinks/urls and related to more of his speakings/lectures

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-VEWJncnsk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-VEWJncnsk&feature=related)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA&feature=related)


Tim Wise-institutional racism, labor, prison education
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-VEWJncnsk&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-VEWJncnsk&NR=1)


affirmative action /school bias white people have affimative action to


YouTube - white people have affimative action to (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0irqMXsiXx0)



“Colorblindness,” “Illuminated Individualism,” Poor Whites, and Mad Men: The Tim Wise Interview, Part 1


http://www.racialicious.com/2010/09/09/%E2%80%9Ccolorblindness%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Cilluminated-individualism%E2%80%9D-poor-whites-and-mad-men-the-tim-wise-interview-part-1/ (http://www.racialicious.com/2010/09/09/%E2%80%9Ccolorblindness%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Cilluminated-individualism%E2%80%9D-poor-whites-and-mad-men-the-tim-wise-interview-part-1/)



http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=350239&stc=1&d=1287825825 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=350240&stc=1&d=1287825878 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=350241&stc=1&d=1287825917

http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dvd-150-whiteprivilege.png


http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/book-150-whitelikeme.png


http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/book-150-speaking.png



http://www.timwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/book-150-colorblind.png

[yodajazz]

And how has all that nanny give aways worked out for the black community?

60% of black children grow up in fatherless homes.
800,000 black men are in jail or prison
70% of black babies are born to unwed mothers
Over 300,000 black babies are aborted annually
50% of new AIDS cases are in the black community
Almost half of young black men in America's cities are neither working nor in school

The liberal social programs have really done nothing more than to continue to enslave the black community. Conservatives want all people to succeed. We do not wish to create a dependent society. Show me one "well meaning" social program that has ever helped anyone to rise above there adversity.

I think that you are missing a basic concept of life on planet earth. All life is dependent on each other. It's the system of give and receive. Plants give oxygen, etc. Humanity or human beings thrive with the help of a system created by other humans. The rich benefit from the highway system, built by labor, for example.

No matter which negative fact you can say about Black America, the most important thing is recognizing the good. That a figure like LeBron James can come out of public housing. Now lots of people are dependent on him. So do you think public housing, was harmful to him, or did it help him survive? I would say that every single social program has done some good. Do you really think that it would be better if more people lived out of cardboard boxes? I would hope not. Is it a government program responsible for the amount of Black men wo are locked up? Is cutting back on educational funding, going to help this in anyway? I would say cutting back would have a negative effect.

By the way, what government programs are causing Black women to terminate pregnancies? I would guess poverty is at the root, myself, not some literacy programing. Employment access, has to be a major factor, from what I can see. The issue of the greater society's relationship to the poor is an eternal question. But the issues of today demand understanding that everyone is in this together: greater communities, the nation, and then the world.

[Faldur]

No matter which negative fact you can say about Black America, the most important thing is recognizing the good. That a figure like LeBron James can come out of public housing.

That is a good thing Yoda, but could we possibly set our expectations higher than the NBA? How many kids from the projects will play professional basketball?


do you think public housing, was harmful to him, or did it help him survive?

Yes I do, a system of welfare that demands the recipient remain in a certain level of poverty to continue to receive the benefit is guaranteed a predestined outcome, poverty.


Is it a government program responsible for the amount of Black men wo are locked up?

Again yes, our social handouts have made the position of "bread winner" or "man of the house" obsolete. Up until the 1940's 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today 70% of black children are born to single women. "The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldnt do, what Jim Crow couldn't do, what the harshest racism couldnt do. And that is to destroy the black family." Walter Williams (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion)


cutting back on educational funding, going to help this in anyway? I would say cutting back would have a negative effect.

I would support cutting back on the bureaucracy that is hamstringing our educators. The department of education is a useless organization who's elimination would improve education. We also need to put into place performance testing and requirements of our educators. Do you think a crappy teacher in Korea would keep their job?




the way, what government programs are causing Black women to terminate pregnancies?

I have no idea, its a factual statistic and if it doesn't disturb you, your numb.

And as far as employment, if you continue to show someone you will give them a handout what reason do they have to look for a hand up?

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

[hippifried]

Hey Natina,
I'm getting carpel tunnel syndrome trying to scroll past all this pasted bullshit & youtube crap that I have no intention of clicking.
Just post a link.

[south ov da border]

Vattel law makes him illegal. End of story...

[yodajazz]

That is a good thing Yoda, but could we possibly set our expectations higher than the NBA? How many kids from the projects will play professional basketball?



Yes I do, a system of welfare that demands the recipient remain in a certain level of poverty to continue to receive the benefit is guaranteed a predestined outcome, poverty.



Again yes, our social handouts have made the position of "bread winner" or "man of the house" obsolete. Up until the 1940's 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today 70% of black children are born to single women. "The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldnt do, what Jim Crow couldn't do, what the harshest racism couldnt do. And that is to destroy the black family." Walter Williams (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion)



I would support cutting back on the bureaucracy that is hamstringing our educators. The department of education is a useless organization who's elimination would improve education. We also need to put into place performance testing and requirements of our educators. Do you think a crappy teacher in Korea would keep their job?





I have no idea, its a factual statistic and if it doesn't disturb you, your numb.

And as far as employment, if you continue to show someone you will give them a handout what reason do they have to look for a hand up?

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

My point of mentioning LeBron James was not to encourage kids to be professional atheletes. it was merely to show that productive people can emerge from public housing. I spent a great deal of time working with social programing in public housing areas. I dont believe they create dependency. It seemed to me the typical person there dreamed of moving away, into private housing. Who in their right mind wants to stay in a crowded area, where all the other people are poor? Typically gangs crop up, and other criminally related activities, found more in poorer communities, but not exclusive to them.

When the system of welfare became wider spread, in the 60's, there was a rule that a man could not be in the household. So I would agree that that particular rule had a negative effect on families. However, that was changed long ago. Today it is based up family income. I still say the real issue is that there are not enough jobs for a young Black man to support a family. A typical situation is that a teenaged male, with little vision of a productive life, still finds a girlfriend, who ends up pregnant. By the time he does find, legitimate employment, say five years later, he is hit with child support, taking most of his paycheck. A typical young person, like him does not have a long range vision, cant seem himself through to working, without much pay, for an extended period. He then quits and ends up spending long period, if not most of life, with an "off the books income." I am not saying this is the right choice. I simply say that people behave from what they see in reality, mostly. That is what they see in thier communities, with the exception of media figures, like entertainment or sports.

But life is much different if your family knows successful role models, personally. But I have known others in the past, who thought the most successful role model was a pimp. They were telling a three year, he was going to be a pimp. And he was spotted wearing a suit, and two girls his age, on each arm, and he was only five. Tragically he died in a house fire a couple of days later.

My point of that story, is that life is more than about government programs. Those people told the little boy he should be a pimp, because that is who they saw as a success in their community.

[hippifried]

Oh. & Vattel is relevant where? Runnin' out of straws to grasp?

[Faldur]

My point of mentioning LeBron James was not to encourage kids to be professional atheletes. it was merely to show that productive people can emerge from public housing. I spent a great deal of time working with social programing in public housing areas.

Putting political differences asides, thank you for being involved.

[yodajazz]

Putting political differences asides, thank you for being involved.

Thanks. It was a job, but I felt the job was helping to make a better community, and thus world. And related to my last post: a couple of years ago a young lady recognized me. As she introduced herself, she told me, she was from a family, that I had worked with, extensively. Not only were they doing good, she said that she was in college to become a social worker, the position I held, when I was involved with her family. I was deeply moved to know that my involvment, may have had a bigger impact, than just addressing the immediate issues of the family.

[south ov da border]

history of vattel law in a nutshell. Founders used it to write the constiution. Clearly defines what a natural born citizen is-both parents being citizens born in the country the child is born. Clearly stated. While politicians have skirted around laws fora while, this still is the law. Obama doesn't meet the criteria. But it's not the first time, so at this point it doesn't matter. Washington stole the Vattel law book from the Library, probably to cover up the laws history.

Now if the courts do find a reason to overturn Obama's tenure, it will probably be because of that law. And if they do, then we will have a real issue and a reason for them to ditch what's going now and have chaos then order out of chaos...

[hippifried]

Well... Vattel may be law somewhere, but not here. Totally irrelevant. Glad you mention the Constitution. You might want to read it sometime. There was nothing in it about who was or wasn't a citizen until the 14th Amendment. The only requirement for natural born citizenship is that you're born in the United States. The onoly time parentage comes into question is when you make a claim of citizenship when you were born somewhere else. So if some woman squats across the line & drops a baby on this side, that child is a US citizen. Natural born, with full right of return, & immunity from deportation. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just reachin'. Makinshitup. We're not European.

[robertlouis]

Well... Vattel may be law somewhere, but not here. Totally irrelevant. Glad you mention the Constitution. You might want to read it sometime. There was nothing in it about who was or wasn't a citizen until the 14th Amendment. The only requirement for natural born citizenship is that you're born in the United States. The onoly time parentage comes into question is when you make a claim of citizenship when you were born somewhere else. So if some woman squats across the line & drops a baby on this side, that child is a US citizen. Natural born, with full right of return, & immunity from deportation. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just reachin'. Makinshitup. We're not European.


Hippi, hippi. I agree with you almost all the time. But what does "We're not European" mean? In that context it sounds like an insult.

[nonnonnon]

Hippi, hippi. I agree with you almost all the time. But what does "We're not European" mean? In that context it sounds like an insult.

like you don't poke fun at the US

[hippifried]

Hippi, hippi. I agree with you almost all the time. But what does "We're not European" mean? In that context it sounds like an insult.
We don't use the same standards to decide who's who. Bloodlines really don't have anything to do with anything here. We're mutts, & proud of it. It's that whole "melting pot" thingie you keep hearing about. You can actually claim braggin' rights for having more or the most different nationalities in your family tree.

We had a pretty good argument here a while back in another thread. Something about the German Chancellor whining about their failed multicultural experiment or something. The gist being that there are apparently a bunch of Turks living there & not trying hard enough to be somebody's ideal of what a German is supposed to be or somesuch horseshit. Upon further reading in the posted article, it became obvious that a lot of these Turks are 2nd & 3rd generation in Germany. They were called foreigners, & apparently couldn't become citizens. I got called all kinds of stupid & whatnot, but nobody could explain just how someone goes about becoming German if they can't trace their lineage back to the dark ages or whatever. I got the impression that it was based on bloodlines. I've made a couple of inquiries in other forums, & I've come away with the impression that that's common all over Europe. I always thought it was a joke when somebody told me they were mixed ethnicity because they were half German & half Dutch. Guess not. As an American, the entire concept is alien to me. The whole tribal/natinalist thing that kept Europeans at each other's throats all the way into the 20th century is very foreign to me. The proponants of monarchy all seem to come out of Europe, although I doubt if that feeling's all that prevalent. But I see a different mindset in general. When we took our independence in the 18th century, we didn't just break from Brittain. We broke from the European mindset of "rule" as opposed to governance.

We're not Europeans. If you find that statement insulting, I don't know what to tell you. It's not the same culture though. We're multicultural & in constant flux. We haven't been around long enough to get overly set in our ways. I even cringe a bit when we get lumped in with this mythical entity known as "the west". Not trying to be insulting. Just pointing out a glaring difference in the common mindsets, & the laws tht stem from them. There's a lot of them. Mostly hidden in subtleties.

[Stavros]

Hippifried the lineage of nationalities in Europe is a piece of string without a beginning or an end, because in a pure sense the identity some people claim for themselves is meaningless: it is used a political weapon by people who for one reason and another feel 'dispossessed', 'powerless' or something to do with a situation they dont like, and who use their 'natural born rights' to claim superiority over others, usuall people with a different colour skin, sense of dress, and religion.

The populations of Europe have been treated to a similar kind of immigration and fusion as the Americas: once in 'England' there were tribes, but we still cannot know for sure if they were completely insulated from men in boats be they from Ireland, Denmark, France and so on: the Romans brought with them a multicultural army, it has to be the case that Roman soldiers mated with local women and bred. Vikings, Celts, Jutes, Saxons, and then the Normans all stuck their oar in, and yet there are people who wave a flag and 'Cry God for Harry, England, and Saint George!' -even though George was from the Middle East somewhere around modern day Turkey. When the Germans decided to purify their society they realised the legal definition of an 'Aryan' was so elusive it caused more trouble than it was worth -just as Israel has tried at least twice if not three times to define a 'Jew' and failed.

Unfortunately, politics uses this concept of belonging to try and exclude others: the Turks who filled a gap in manual labour in Germany from the 1950s on and who are as responsible for the 'German economic miracle' as Adenauer and the Marshall Plan, were 'Gastarbeiten' -Guest Workers, with no right to remain. The first generation didnt want to remain anyway, but make enough money to buy a family house back home, and they were mostly secular Turks, whereas the 2nd and 3rd generation born in Germany have become citizens, and Muslims too. So in the end what you have is the politics of cultural difference: white South Africans are welcome, Blacks once were not welcome (and still are not even if people are reluctant to say it out loud) but flavour of the month now objects to Muslims which takes us back to the 'Pakis' in the 1970s who actually were Bangladeshi and so on and so on.

As I think it was said before, immigrants often do better in this country because they will work 12-14 hours a day and have more ambition and family values than a lot of the poor: nothing new here. The Asians from Uganda thrown out by Idi Amin in the 1960s have been one of the most successful immigrant groups in recent times. At the time they were vilified and the subject of nauseating abuse -I doubt anyone now wants to give them back the taxes they earned for the UK or lose the jobs they created.

But there was that debate in the 1980s: Is the USA a melting pot of cultures, or Balkanized into special interest groups? Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Polish-Americans, Native Americans, and so on. This story has no end.

[robertlouis]

like you don't poke fun at the US

I agree. It's so easy there's not much fun in it. :dancing:

[hippifried]

But there was that debate in the 1980s: Is the USA a melting pot of cultures, or Balkanized into special interest groups? Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Polish-Americans, Native Americans, and so on. This story has no end.

Not so much a debate really as a media driven attempt to demonize, as unAmerican, anyone who uses a hyphen in a descriptive. It was a political political ploy to separate people into cliques. Sadly, that's a legacy of the '80s, & the meme is still being promoted as a "culture war". That's bogus of course, & just so much fear mongering. It's politics. Divide & conquer.

I'm not saying that everything's beauty & light over here. We have our problems, & more than our fair share of fanatics from all bents around the socio-cultural political sphere. We had slavery, & a major armed rebellion that tried to "balkanize" the country. There are still loud minority factions & followers of John Calhoun who think it was a terrible disservice to keep the country from desolving. The Chinese Exclusion Act maintained that "they" were somehow exempt from the 14th Amendment protections. It wasn't repealed until 1943. American Indians were excluded from being Americans until the 20th century. Attitudes change slowly. Every immigrant wave has been treated like shit, but the really big one, around the end of the 19th century, was completely overwhelming. A large part of our population is only 3 to 5 generations American on at least one side of their family. By contrast, most black people here are 15 to 20 generations. The Asian & "hispanic" populations are hard to figure that way because they're being constantly expanded by the current immigration wave. It's a party. The more the merrier.

Gotta run...

[muh_muh]

They were called foreigners, & apparently couldn't become citizens. I got called all kinds of stupid & whatnot, but nobody could explain just how someone goes about becoming German if they can't trace their lineage back to the dark ages or whatever.

no youre just being stupid
first of all they can become germans any time
secondly iirc i even linked you to the wiki article on how to aquire german citizenship which essentially boils down to applying for it and passing a test ie pretty much exactly the same as in the us

the main problem is you still are incapable of understanding that
1) there are 0 noteworth ill effects of living legally in a european country as a non citizen
2) quite a few europeans and turks in particular are proud of the legacy and dont want to become germans or whatever else

[hippifried]

no youre just being stupid
first of all they can become germans any time
secondly iirc i even linked you to the wiki article on how to aquire german citizenship which essentially boils down to applying for it and passing a test ie pretty much exactly the same as in the us

the main problem is you still are incapable of understanding that
1) there are 0 noteworth ill effects of living legally in a european country as a non citizen
2) quite a few europeans and turks in particular are proud of the legacy and dont want to become germans or whatever else
Well that's all fine & dandy for naturalization. That's how it works just about anywhere, including here. But my questions & points were never about naturalization. When we're talking about second & third generation German born, the obvious question is: How many generations before you no longer have to take a test? How long &/or what does it take to become a natural (as opposed to naturalized) citizen? I'm pretty sure most Germans don't have to apply or take a test. What's the criteria for being born German?

1) Maybe right now, but without natural citizenship, you're always subject to deportation. In the case of a second or third generation, that's shipping somebody off to a foreign land. A natural citizen is always legal. & don't tell me it can't happen. Are they still immigrants? Really?

2) "Quite a few" doesn't equate to most. Aside from that little tip carved out of Bulgaria, Turkey is Asian. Lumping Turks in with natural citizens of EU States doesn't work. They really don't have the same protections because they're not members of the European confederacy, & laws can change on the whim of the legislating body.

[Stavros]

We now have a bizarre situation in which member countries of the European Broadcasting Union can participate -as they did last night- in the Eurovision Song Contest. Azerbaijan won it last night, also participating in the final was Georgia -in the past Israel has won it (the post-op Dana International) and Turkey are also in it. I don't know how European Azerbaijan is, but like Israel they 'identify' with the 'Euro-American' pop culture in a way that it is assumed Moroccans and Algerians and Syrians do not. To me they are not European, but I am fighting a losing battle on this, and expect Zimbabwe to be in next year's Eurovision Song Contest, and why not?

[muh_muh]

What's the criteria for being born German?

according to wiki that your parents (in case theyre both non citizens) have been living legally in germany for at least 8 years


you're always subject to deportation.

a very rare occurence with legal immigrants that to my knowledge only ever happens if you commit a felony


2) "Quite a few" doesn't equate to most. Aside from that little tip carved out of Bulgaria, Turkey is Asian. Lumping Turks in with natural citizens of EU States doesn't work. They really don't have the same protections because they're not members of the European confederacy, & laws can change on the whim of the legislating body.

what i said was about the wishes of most europeans and turks not about their rights as non citizens
again stop being stupid

[hippifried]

I don't know how European Azerbaijan is, but like Israel they 'identify' with the 'Euro-American' pop culture in a way that it is assumed Moroccans and Algerians and Syrians do not.

Wrong assumption. American pop culture & its worldwide variations is the most influential unifying force in the world. All through the Americas, Oceania, & Afro-Eurasia, the one thing everybody has in common is rock 'n roll. Don't kid yourself. As overly conservative as Islam is, the Q'uran has no prohibition on music with a beat. I would imagine those whirling Dervishes are adding other gyrations to the spin as we speak. The most common communication device in the developing world, including the north African countries mentioned, is the cell phone. They're tied into facebook, twitter, & youtube. Party down, Ahab. The Clash was wrong. Sharif likes it just fine.

[Stavros]

Its not so much the cultural thing that bothers me its the politics. Both Israel and Turkey want to become members of the European Union, but when you pursue the political geography you can get into all sorts of difficulties: what is the 'Middle East' in the Middle of? It used to be the 'British Empire'; then there was the 'Near East' meaning that the eastern Mediterranean was the closest part of the 'East' to Britain; not to mention the whole concept of 'orientalism' and the 'exotic' otherness of 'them'. There was a time when Albania was considered 'exotic' and not part of Europe, because the Ottoman Empire was 'clearly' different: the Arabic script, the 'oriental' dress, the food and so on. So the concept of Europe has changed over the last century, but I really do feel there is a limit as to what Europe can contain, in both political and geographical terms; and as a European I would be appalled at the prospect of Israel and/or Turkey becoming part of the European Union, and would be looking to re-locate to New York or San Francisco.

[hippifried]

Oh c'mon... The geo-cultural separations have something to do with the British empire? Roman empire maybe, but I'm thinking Hittites & their ancestors. The levant, AKA the "middle east", was the middle of trade between Asia & the civilized world around the Mediterranian. It was the center of trade for Afro-Eurasia, back when the Brits were cavemen. The levant was the civilized world. Until the Suez canal, the only direct sea trade between east & west was up through the Helespont to the Black Sea. Ship traffic into the Persian Gulf or the Red Sea required an overland trek. Hence the caravan routes that that worked that trade for thousands of years. Where do you think the "aryan" language base that we're conversing in right now came from?

Of course there's cultural differences. There's a lot more similarities though. The Ottomans were just the Arabs who conquered Byzantium. Suleiman took Budapest & marched on the gates of Vienna. Europe's never gotten over it. Hell, y'all still wax poetic over the Crusades as if it was a culture clash & not just a land grab & attempted control of the trade routes. "Holy Land" my ass.

The EU is an interim thing. It's a good idea to create a system where all the little nation/tribes aren't trying to annihilate each other, but in the long run, there'll be expansion. It won't necessaarily be the EU though. Asia's getting ready to form their own union. So's Africa. They have no real loyalties (especially Africa) to a bunch of lines drawn up by colonial Europeans. Sooner or later, your progeny will realize that AfroEurAsia is one big land mass, & the people will be free to move about as they please. Same thing in the Americas. South America's working on basically a common market, with a common currency, as we speak. Next step is...? Despite all the whining & handwringing, NAFTA is going to expand until the "N" is gone. If Asia & Africa form their own common currencies, we might have to too. The divisions are breaking down, & that trend is bound to continue. I'd love to be able to check it out in another millennium or so to see what language everybody's speaking, & what color they ended up. It'll take multiple generations (figure 5 per century), but all this culture bullshit is going to disappear & get relegated to history & the petri dish where it belongs.

[Stavros]

I understand and sympathise with your point about constructed identities fluctuating over time, but there is a lot of angst in Old Europe right now which has been exposed by the economic malaise stretching from Ireland through Iberia to Greece -when economies are doing well the immigrant is not as sensitive an issue as it becomes when times are hard, on the 'last one in, first one out' principle, based on a belief, even if it has no real historical virtue, that 'this' is 'our land' not 'theirs'. The scary thing about your scenario of an increasingly regionalised set of blocs is that it could end up looking like the division of the world into Oceaina, Eurasia and Eastasia....luckily I will be long gone before the clocks strike 13...

[hippifried]

there is a lot of angst in Old Europe right now

Yeah? Well they're just gonna have to get over it. We'll airlift y'all a bunch of Prozac.

[robertlouis]

Fascinating debate, you two, so I'll intervene briefly on a pint of pedantry.

The Ottoman Turks are not, and never were, Arabs. They emerged in the early middle ages as yet another disparate group of central Asian tribes heading west for new pastures, and finding that they liked it, eventually into settling and conquest. Over the centuries that expansion moved south into North Africa and the Middle East, but it's arguable which group, the Arabs or the Turks, had the greater influence on the other.

And as the Ottoman Empire imploded gradually from the end of the 19th century to its total collapse at the end of the First World War, the Arabs were very keen to throw off the yoke of what was for them an alien oppressor.

The subsequent French and British carve-up and fuck-up of the region which has led directly to the current impasse in the middle east is of course another story for another day....

[Stavros]

But I never used the term 'Ottoman Turks' just Ottoman -their language was written in Arabic script until Kemal had it Latinized. Even if you believe the original Turks were from central Asia, these Turks were not exclusive to the region; Mustapha Kemal was born in Thessaloniki which as you know is today in Greece. Anatolia was a melting pot of nationalities and religions, one of the main driving forces of the Nationalist Revolution was precisely to create a Turkish identity and 'erase' these multiplicities and turn them into a singularity -to accept Turkish nationality was to be defined as a Turk regardless of what you wanted, just as Palestinians had the 'choice' of staying in Jaffa and becoming 'Israelis' in 1948. This bogus offer -offered at the point of a gun- was rejected by most of the Greeks, the Armenians, the Jews, the Russians, the Azeris and so on -the ones who did become 'Turkish' did so through coercion and the need to survive; or like the immigrants from Bosnia were happy to trade a worthless identity for one that gave them equal rights with the 'locals'. The ones who implacably refused -the Kurds- became ghosts in the Turkish machine, until resorting to violence to give flesh to their own aspirations. Alexandretta is a fascinating example of how a multi-national, multi-religious part of the Ottoman Empire, remained outside Turkey until 1938 -The Turks funded Turkish nationalist agitators there, and walked in and seized it having made it clear to Britain and France that if they opposed it, Turkey's neutrality in any forthcoming war with Germany would not be guaranteed -needless to say neither Britain nor France cared what happened to this area (the main city being the port of Iskenderun/Alexandretta) -but Syria has always claimed it would have been part of the independent Syria that was briefly established under Faisal in 1920, and retains its claim to this very day. In the meantime, the 'non-Turks' have all but gone, there are probably more Russians in Alexandretta these days.

[robertlouis]

Stavros, my gentle pop was at hippi, not you - he called the Turks "the arabs who conquered byzantium".

Your analysis of Turkey and the forced diaspora of its ethnic minorities in the 20th century is spot-on. As it happens, I ended up in Bulgaria for a sizeable chunk in the early 90s, putting a joint venture telco together, and while I was there the Yugoslavian civil wars broke out. Scary times with land borders with both Serbia and Croatia just over 100km north of Sofia. We often drove over to Thessaloniki - or Salonica for R&R, so I have experienced all the ethnic tensions, myths and hatreds of the Balkans at first hand. Fascinating and chilling at the same time. Every nationality and minority carries its own very different map of the region in its head and in its heart.

If you haven't read it, I can heartily recommend Mark Mazower's excellent book on Salonica and its lost society, a wonderful melting-pot where cultures blended rather than clashed, more or less up to the outbreak of war in 1914, and arguably the most civilised spot in the Mediterranean since Frederick 11 held court in Sicily in the 12th century.

[beandip]

So much stupid in one thread. As required by law the POTUS must be a US citizen and both parents must also be US natural born citizens. When someone runs for POTUS, in order to be POTUS, at some point they must bide by the law. He didn't, sucks being him now...LOL.

Too bad if you don't believe in laws.

Big fail there as Obama's father is not.

John Mccain had to cough up his BC when he was running for POTUS. He was born in PCZ, a US territory.

[Stavros]

This is what your constitution says:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

I don't know what the difficulty is in reading the words and understanding what they say: and its been said so many times. End of story. Move on to the issues.

[hippifried]

This is what your constitution says:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

I don't know what the difficulty is in reading the words and understanding what they say: and its been said so many times. End of story. Move on to the issues.
Well Stavros, the problem with the "birthers" is that they don't want to know anything. They ignore anything that doesn't fit whatever known lie they choose to believe, so that they can continue telling the lie & feign surprize when nobody else agrees. (I guess that's why they call it ignorance) This is the big lie as told by the "birthers" & klan/nazis that just can't abide color in power:

As required by law the POTUS must be a US citizen and both parents must also be US natural born citizens.
Simply not true. This isn't Europe, remember? There's no parental requirement of any kind for citizenship to anyone born in the US. But you can't tell glassy eyed kool-aid drinkers anything. They don't want to know. Aside from legislation to aid the citizenship claims of people born to service people stationed overseas, this is the only applicable law governing citizenship:


Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
(The underlining is mine) Hell, you don't even need to know who daddy is to be a citizen of the US. Orphans are natural citizens if they're born here. Most hospitals now have a policy that foundling or abandoned children can be dropped off there no questions asked. Those kids are natural born citizens too, because they're innocent, they're here, & there's no evidence they belong anywhere else. This is home.

At the risk of sounding redundant, let me repeat:
All this birther nonsense is, was, & has never been anything but klan shit.
There's really no other explanation for the vile stupidity & vociferousness of the attack.

[south ov da border]

well this came out yesterday.

YouTube - Jerome Corsi's First Interview Post-Release of "Where's the Birth Certificate?" - 5/17/11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7iYwkXagTg&feature=player_embedded)

THoughts???

[hippifried]

THoughts???

Sure. Corsi's another long winded conspiracy nut. From what I can see, he'll jump head first into any conspiracy theory. He's a birther. He's a truther. He claims that the US is trying to secretly abdicate it's sovereinty, & is secretly aiding Iran in the development of nuclear weapons. He adheres to the abiogenic hypothesis for the origin of petoleum. So what? Oh yeah, he has a PHD in political science. So does Rachel Maddow. Again, so what? This guys just another fruitcake, & proof of what most of us hippies were saying back in the '70s, that PHDs in the non-science sciences were being handed out like candy on halloween.

My thoughts? I just think this bozo's stupid. Another one of those educated fools.