Native American and transgender

[FreddieGomez]

I heard that supposedly native american ppl are accepting of transgender people....???? anybody have more info?

[TSPornFan]

In a sex course at college, I've heard that the culture is accepting of transsexuals and inner-sex people.

[theone1982]

From what I understand, there were certain tribes where a shaman determined the sex of a baby by viewing its spirit, regardless of the genitals.

[Jackal]

In some cultures there were two-spirits, someone who transitioned gender or was viewed as a respected member of another gender.

[Dino Velvet]

Time to look at the Backpage ads so I can find a tee-pee to use my pee-pee.

[onmyknees]

I heard that supposedly native american ppl are accepting of transgender people....???? anybody have more info?


Curious post there Freddie since you claim to be part native american. :bs:

[BigDF]

I heard that supposedly native american ppl are accepting of transgender people....???? anybody have more info?There is some information about that in this link, Freddie:

http://www.transsexual.org/

[Infern0]

I dont know much on this but the Native Americans seem an enlightened people so i wouldnt be surprised

[Prospero]

I know this might infuriate people, but isn't this just another example of the myth of the 'noble savage.' it seems to me to be white america playing out its guilt complex over its ethnic cleansing of the native american people. Re-invent them as some specially gifted/magical/liberal culture. They were indeed a mighty network of interlinked cultures with all the strengths and flaws of any culture. Christians from Europe came in and smashed a whole continents cultural matrix to smithereens.

[Birgitta]

But it is true that the colonisation of countries has made a lot of them homophobic due to their "christian" beliefs

Its a bad thing that transgendered children do not have a spirituel place in sociaty and that they are seen as deviants from childhood on...

[Infern0]

But it is true that the colonisation of countries has made a lot of them homophobic

Its a bad thing that transgendered children do not have a spirituel place in sociaty and that they are seen as deviants from childhood on...

This is without doubt.

The truth is, we consider ourselves civillised and enlightened as a people, but the human race has a LONG way to go before that can be considered as fact, it's stance on transgender is just one of the reasons why.

[onmyknees]

I know this might infuriate people, but isn't this just another example of the myth of the 'noble savage.' it seems to me to be white america playing out its guilt complex over its ethnic cleansing of the native american people. Re-invent them as some specially gifted/magical/liberal culture. They were indeed a mighty network of interlinked cultures with all the strengths and flaws of any culture. Christians from Europe came in and smashed a whole continents cultural matrix to smithereens.

If this was high school, ( and it often times feels like it) and I was your instructor, I'd happily give you an "F" for reading comprehension and staying on topic, and a D for content.

[giovanni_hotel]

There's a subplot in the 1970's movie 'Little Big Man' with Dustin Hoffman,( fictionalized life story of a White dude raised by Indians who fought against General Custer), between Hoffman's character and a transgender Indian;

From http://www.tg-films.info/films_l/film0716.php

' An interesting film about the life (or the tall stories?) of a man who was taken in by Cheyenne Indians as a child and raised by them, and who later participated on both sides of conflicts including the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

Early in the film, a teenager in the tribe, Little Horse, didn't want to go to fight the tribe's enemies, and it was made clear that this was acceptable, and he could stay behind with the women.

Much later, the hero, Little Big Man (played by Dustin Hoffman) returns to the tribe. Little Horse, played by Robert Little Star, has now become a berdache, a person born male but who shows many of the characteristics of a female in his daily life.

This social pattern is based on fact, and indeed the whole film seems a thoughtful and realistic portrayal of conditions of the time.'

Little Horse from the movie.

http://www.tg-films.info/films_l/pics/littlebi.jpg

Examples of Native American berdaches.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2010/10/11/1286800968127/A-two-spirit-Native-Ameri-006.jpghttp://c0875922.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/21439.medium.jpg
http://queenslandpride.gaynewsnetwork.com.au/multisites/qlp/images/stories/277/p16_twospirits-4.jpg

[phobun]

Early in the film, a teenager in the tribe, Little Horse, didn't want to go to fight the tribe's enemies, and it was made clear that this was acceptable, and he could stay behind with the women.

Much later, the hero, Little Big Man (played by Dustin Hoffman) returns to the tribe. Little Horse, played by Robert Little Star, has now become a berdache, a person born male but who shows many of the characteristics of a female in his daily life.

This social pattern is based on fact, and indeed the whole film seems a thoughtful and realistic portrayal of conditions of the time.'




This is interesting and true aspect of native peoples who were the victims of genocide by an expansionist white American government.

Yes the white Spaniards were cruel in Mexico, central and South America, but the natives there generally were not systematically exterminated. Rather, the whites and natives eventually became a mixed people in most areas.

In the US, native Americans, including women and children, were hunted and murdered outright as official policy not just by settlers but by the Army, or sent to reservations and killed with diseases.

Because native blood was so decimated in the US, I have no doubt that this is why we're much more likely to see gender-variant people of Latin American descent, compared to in the US.

This is a nice summary of current terminology and how "Berdache" is considered offensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

[Prospero]

I agree with you Birgitta

[Prospero]

If this was high school, ( and it often times feels like it) and I was your instructor, I'd happily give you an "F" for reading comprehension and staying on topic, and a D for content.

In what way is this off-topic? I was responding to the odd suggestion that native americans are in some way more positive about transgenderism. Show me the evidence? My point, perhaps not eloquently made, was that there is a tendency to invent and believe in special qualities in native american (and other now marginalised) cultures which are not supported by evidence, but which are the product of liberal guilt. A classic example, a few years back, was the lunacy of that book on Blackfoot Physics.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Yes, this is true Freddie... :) my family is mostly full blooded indian :)

[Jackal]

In what way is this off-topic? I was responding to the odd suggestion that native americans are in some way more positive about transgenderism. Show me the evidence? My point, perhaps not eloquently made, was that there is a tendency to invent and believe in special qualities in native american (and other now marginalised) cultures which are not supported by evidence, but which are the product of liberal guilt. A classic example, a few years back, was the lunacy of that book on Blackfoot Physics.


JN Katz chronicled many primary resources and evidence of the Two-Spirit phenomenon in various Native American societies. This is history and culture recorded, not feel-good inventions by spiritualists or novelists.

[Prospero]

Jackal - thanks. I know this is not an academic forum (lol) but its good to know that there is some real study on this - so I bow to that.

[fred41]

Jackal - thanks. I know this is not an academic forum (lol) but its good to know that there is some real study on this - so I bow to that.


I do understand what you mean though...some people, instead of having a balanced and realistic view, would have you believe that we could be living in a disneyesque...ferngully type world in the U.S.A.right now if only history had been different...

no harm done...I understood your point.

[onmyknees]

In what way is this off-topic? I was responding to the odd suggestion that native americans are in some way more positive about transgenderism. Show me the evidence? My point, perhaps not eloquently made, was that there is a tendency to invent and believe in special qualities in native american (and other now marginalised) cultures which are not supported by evidence, but which are the product of liberal guilt. A classic example, a few years back, was the lunacy of that book on Blackfoot Physics.


Well your second attempt was more clarifying than your first. I now see the point you were trying to make, and actually agree with it. I did not the first time around. Appreciate the clarification. Well stated.

[Birgitta]

another example:

During the era of the British Raj, authorities attempted to eradicate hijras, whom they saw as "a breach of public decency."[23] Anti-hijra laws were repealed; but a law outlawing castration, a central part of the hijra community, was left intact, though rarely enforced. Also during British rule in India they were placed under Criminal Tribes Act 1871 and labelled a "criminal tribe," hence subjected to compulsory registration, strict monitoring and stigmatized for a long time, after independence however they were denotified in 1952, though the century old stigma continues.Recently campaigns have emerged with the intent of protecting the hijras from persecution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29#Social_status_and_economic_ circumstances

[Prospero]

Interesting Birgitta. Western imperialism interfering in a "native" custom - but I have sincre doubts about the Hirja as a tradition. As I understand it - but perhaps this is a mis telling of history - their continuity involved the abduction and forcible castration of young boys. That to me if true has barbarity in common with the widespread African practice of forcible female circumscision. However if not true then its rather like the blood iibel against the jews. Certainly the existing Hirja community should be protected, but such a practice - if true - should be outlawed. These are not naturally transgendered people.

[phobun]

This resource has a number of links to articles, movies, etc. about transgenderism within native societies of North- and Meso-America:
http://androgyne.0catch.com/2spiritx.htm

Also, you can go to http://scholar.google.com and enter Two-Spirit and Berdache for lots of articles as well.