Patriot Act - Involves everone living in US...

[GroobySteven]

Dear MoveOn member,
A bipartisan group of senators have agreed to fight the Patriot Act—by filibuster if necessary. The law currently goes too far in curtailing our civil liberties and they're fighting back. The Senate will vote as soon as Thursday. This is the time to act.
This is a huge moment. Senators from both parties are standing together to protect privacy and liberty in a time of war—and they're ready to go all the way. It's important to support them and to show those who are still on the fence how important this issue is to you. Will you help us reach 250,000 signatures on our petition by Thursday so we can deliver them in time for the vote?
http://political.moveon.org/patriotact/?id=6528-5096341-TUXQfqhhfugP3JGcQhg2qg&t=2
If this filibuster holds, Congress could vote to temporarily extend the Patriot Act as it stands—allowing time for a new, better version that addresses the big problems in the law. This would be a huge victory for those of us who believe that liberty is non-negotiable.
The tide is turning in Congress. Leaders in Washington are beginning to demand accountability from the Bush administration on everything from Iraq to the use of torture. Now it looks like President Bush's plan to pass a new and more dangerous version of the Patriot Act is also in trouble.1
In 2001, only one senator voted against the Patriot Act. Since then, people from all across the political spectrum have come to realize that the Patriot Act strikes a blow to the fundamental rights, liberties, and privacy of all Americans. Protecting freedom is something that all of us—progressives and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans—can agree on.
That's why a bipartisan group of senators, including Republicans Larry Craig, John Sununu, Lisa Murkowski and Democrats Russ Feingold, Dick Durbin and Ken Salazar, have been working to fix the Patriot Act. They have vowed to fight the most egregious provisions and filibuster reauthorization if necessary. We need to show them that we have their backs.
The Patriot Act that the president wants them to pass now goes too far and doesn't protect the privacy of innocent Americans. It doesn't address some of the biggest problems in the law. For example:2

* The government can obtain your private records, like medical, library, school, and other records—without showing any connection between your activities and and a suspected foreign terrorist.
* Some 30,000 National Security Letters ("NSLs") are issued each year to obtain private records,3 and the recipients of those NSLs are under a gag order that is almost impossible to overturn. But the Patriot Act does nothing to address these abusive powers.
* The government is allowed to get "sneak and peek" search warrants to search a home or business and doesn't have to tell the owner of the premises for a month. This power can be used in cases that don't have anything to do with terrorism.

Right now, the Patriot Act is just bad law about to get worse—and leaders in the Washington are actually willing to try to block it. We can't let our only chance to fix it slip away without a fight.
Hundreds of thousands of signatures on a petition like this will show the Senate how serious Americans are about protecting their constitutional freedoms. Will you sign the petition and show your support for filibustering a Patriot Act that doesn't include privacy protections?
http://political.moveon.org/patriotact/?id=6528-5096341-TUXQfqhhfugP3JGcQhg2qg&t=3
Together, we can make sure we're safe—and our freedom is safe, too.
Thanks for all you do,
–Eli, Nita, Ben, Jennifer and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Seanchai thanks for bringing this to my attention

[chefmike]

So much for the so-called "liberal media", this hasn't been getting anywhere near the attention that it merits.

[brickcitybrother]

I simply wish that this was a bad dream ... but its simply a bad reality. History will look poorly on the government during this time.

[yourdaddy]

I love how Seanchai paraphrases that a group of Senators want to fillibuster the bill. One Senator, who was the only one who voted against it in the first place, has threatened to do it. Here goes Move On dot Org. again, spending the Soros millions, stirring up the far left, scattering them again like chaff in the wind. I agree, we should water certain provisions down, but it sure has been a long time since we had a terrorist attack here. Seems like 9/11 might have been about the last time.

[GroobySteven]

I love how Seanchai paraphrases that a group of Senators want to fillibuster the bill. One Senator, who was the only one who voted against it in the first place, has threatened to do it. Here goes Move On dot Org. again, spending the Soros millions, stirring up the far left, scattering them again like chaff in the wind. I agree, we should water certain provisions down, but it sure has been a long time since we had a terrorist attack here. Seems like 9/11 might have been about the last time.

Hey Yourdaddy,
Even you must agree that;
a) another terrorist attack could quite likely take place we just don't know when.
b) The Patriot Act has major problems against privacy and other freedom issues.

All it's asking is that as we have the time, don't arbitarily rush it through, get it worded right and make it work properly. It's got nothing to do with "far left" at all as far as I'm concerned it involves people across the spectrum.
There is no need to feel personally attacked because something has been posted with sensibilities that might be slightly different from yours and solely because I posted it, don't be so sensitive.
seanchai

[yourdaddy]

Seanchai, it's only when you change the facts to suit your politics, that I say something. Where's this "group" of senators that are ready to filibuster?

[yourdaddy]

Seanchai, I went back to your original post, and saw that it actually was from Move On. That explains everything.

[GroobySteven]

Ok so get over the fact you can't stand Moveon and think I'm some sort of raving leftwing loony...
...you'd agree that the Patriot Act really shouldn't be passed in it's present form?
seanchai

[yourdaddy]

You're a raving, left-wing, looney. You're a British left-wing looney. If I had seen where your message was from, I wouldn't have even answered it. Sort of like if i had quoted the John Birch Society, or the Aryan Nation.

[fishman33]

Ok so get over the fact you can't stand Moveon and think I'm some sort of raving leftwing loony...
...you'd agree that the Patriot Act really shouldn't be passed in it's present form?
seanchai

I don't really think there is any need for the Patriot Act in any form. There is absolutely no way to prevent terrorist attacks in a free society. I laugh my ass off everytime I go to a ball game/concert/amusement park and they do those silly little checks through ladies handbags. Never mind the fact that I could have enough C4 packed around my body or inside a water bottle to blow away half a city block or the fact that I've never had to walk under a metal detector. But, all of those things are just to make the majority of people who are too stupid to know better feel safe. And that, basically, is what the Patriot Act is. The government is not going through all of your files or probably not even half the people they think have terrorist leanings, but if this silly little law helps Granny Smith sleep at night then so be it. And to be honest, they can probably pull all that crap anyway, without the patriot act and put a DOD National Security stamp on it.

[GroobySteven]

You're a raving, left-wing, looney. You're a British left-wing looney. If I had seen where your message was from, I wouldn't have even answered it. Sort of like if i had quoted the John Birch Society, or the Aryan Nation.

Oh dear, like your little Alabama buddy Legend, you just cannot answer my questions straight.
You associate yourself with the Aryan Nation...how queer, as us Brits say.
seanchai

[yourdaddy]

You are such a little twit. Did you get past 2nd form in England? I said that you putting something on this board from Move On, would be the EQUIVALENT of my posting something from the aryan nation. But you knew that.

[GroobySteven]

Twit....love it, thanks for reminding me of a lost word.

You still didn't answer my questions?

seanchai

[yourdaddy]

Read my original post, twit. I said some provisions need watering down. Cooler heads will prevail, it will be discussed, and what comes out of it will make us a hell of a lot safer than anything George Soros, or you would want.

[GroobySteven]

I read that but you didn't answer my question direct, I think as usual you were trying to avoid any way where you're thoughts or feelings on a political subject might meet mine.
Well thanks for the answer - glad to see your vocabulary is repeating itself, just what I'd expect from a low-class, ill-educated, bad-tempered little dictator like yourself. Don't blame the failure of your life on others, take the responsibility yourself.
seanchai

[yourdaddy]

Not worth dignifying. The real Seanchai is a sad little loser.

[GroobySteven]

Not worth dignifying. The real Seanchai is a sad little loser.

Well said.
Jolly good answer.
seanchai

[flabbybody]

let's get back on focus
a lot of the gist of the patriot act puts onus on financial institutions to collect data on the customers they are doing business with. This involves knowing your customer when opening a new bank account and asking anti-money laundering questions when accepting large incoming money transfers.
None of this is bad. You can easily make the argument that if the present day law was on the books pre-9/11, the terrorists would have had a much more difficult time financing September 11.

[scipio]

let's get back on focus
a lot of the gist of the patriot act puts onus on financial institutions to collect data on the customers they are doing business with. This involves knowing your customer when opening a new bank account and asking anti-money laundering questions when accepting large incoming money transfers.
None of this is bad. You can easily make the argument that if the present day law was on the books pre-9/11, the terrorists would have had a much more difficult time financing September 11.

Really? How much did it actually cost them to finance just the operation of September 11? Some flight lessons, a few months rent, and some plane tickets. As far as I know they didn't even have false papers, but if they did, they are not all that expensive.

You're allowed, I believe, to bring $10,000 cash into the USA at a time. A few people coming in and out of the country, and there would have been no trace.

The training camps were in Afghanistan so any money flowing there from the Arab world wouldn't even have been affected by this legislation.

In short, I don't think this kind of thing would have made it substantially more difficult for the perpetrators.

[flabbybody]

true
But a future attack that would require extensive financing would be more difficult to fund because of new law

[scipio]

true
But a future attack that would require extensive financing would be more difficult to fund because of new law

Perhaps. But only if a great deal of the planning and preparation were done within the USA.

There are probably a lot of other rules, just as invasive, that could be put into law, which would each give you SLIGHTLY more safety (although it is almost totally perceived safety rather than true safety). What would the sum of those laws be? Two words: police state.

I'm not trying to slag anyone but it really isn't fair that these infringement on human freedoms are "sold" to the population through fear. Some people buy the idea that in order to retain some essential freedoms it's necessary to give up a few of them, and that there has to be a "balance". I disagree. That's not what the USA was founded for.

"Those who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)"

[Trogdor]

true
But a future attack that would require extensive financing would be more difficult to fund because of new law

Perhaps. But only if a great deal of the planning and preparation were done within the USA.

There are probably a lot of other rules, just as invasive, that could be put into law, which would each give you SLIGHTLY more safety (although it is almost totally perceived safety rather than true safety). What would the sum of those laws be? Two words: police state.

I'm not trying to slag anyone but it really isn't fair that these infringement on human freedoms are "sold" to the population through fear. Some people buy the idea that in order to retain some essential freedoms it's necessary to give up a few of them, and that there has to be a "balance". I disagree. That's not what the USA was founded for.

"Those who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)"


THANK YOU best post I've seen


Why do we have to give up some freedoms to get other freedoms or protections? I say, keep the freedoms we have, and protect us; don't give me this "There needs to be balance!" crap. Getting sick of the old "guns & butter" rountine.

The Patriot act is the most un-patriotic act I've seen.



Here's my view on the so-called patriotic act.



*puts the patriot act on the floor, stands up, undoes his fly, whips it out, and takes a nice, long piss on the patriot act ( Note that this act does not even desderve capitol lettering ), puts it away and re-zips*


That's my take on it. :P

Whoever the "genius" was that made the patriot act, I hope that person gets gang raped by a dozen 800 pound, foaming at the mouth, disease-infested silverback gorillas afflicted with leprosy.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Thanks for the info.

I am now at piece thinking that I did my part while yourdaddy is waving the Confederate Flad and whistling Dixie somewhere in central Florida.

[DamionXXX]

Я Люблю Вас Ulyana, я Люблю только Вас ... теперь и для остальной части моей жизни.

[BlackAdder]

I dont see why you feed Yourdaddy...The man obviously has blind faith, and you cant logically argue someone who has faith.....its like teaching a fish to iceskate.


The Patriot Act hasnt made ANYONE safer...its still easy to cross our borders, and just as easy to run a suicide bomb into a populated building.....All the Patriot Act has done is made US citizens less free. Its a bunch of Nazi crap...You know Hitler ALSO called his apparatus the Department of Homeland Security...and sold the same type of shit to the Germans through fear mongering......Fucking disgusting....Ive actually ended friendships with people I knew just because theyve supported this administration...If they are for it, obviously we have nothing worthwhile in common.

[GroobySteven]

I dont see why you feed Yourdaddy...The man obviously has blind faith, and you cant logically argue someone who has faith.....its like teaching a fish to iceskate.


It's like picking at a scab. You know you shouldn't but it feels good anyway.
seanchai

[Felicia Katt]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin, 1759

The original Patriot Act (ignoring the Orwellian aspects of its name alone) was passed while the smoke from 9-11 was still swirling. None of the sentator's voting for it even had a chance to read it thorougly. Huge portions have been successfully challenged as unconstitutional. Other provisions have been horribly abused by law enforcement. the Justice Department finally admitted that 88 percent of the warrants issued by courts under this power to secretly search people's homes or businesses and not tell them about it for months and months had been used in cases that had nothing to do with terrorism. The FBI has used the Patriot Act against the owner of two Las Vegas strip clubs and local officials believed to have accepted bribes. Government agents reportedly delivered subpoenas under the Patriot Act to two stockbrokers not in any way involved in terrorism, ordering the release of detailed business records.

Other non-terrorism targets of the Patriot Act include a lovesick 20-year-old woman from Orange County, California who planted threatening notes aboard a cruise ship, and a University of Connecticut graduate student who discovered 35-year-old tissue samples from an anthrax-infected cow in a broken university cold-storage unit.

The Justice Department said it has used authority given to it by the PATRIOT Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons

investigators used a provision of the PATRIOT Act to recover $4.5 million from a group of telemarketers accused of tricking elderly U.S. citizens into thinking they had won the Canadian lottery

According to the EFF, the government may now monitor the online activities of innocent Americans, and perhaps even track what Web sites you read, by merely telling a judge anywhere in the U.S. that the spying could lead to information that is "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. The person spied on does not have to be the target of the investigation. This application must be granted and the government is not obligated to report to the court or tell the person spied upon what it has done.

As you sit there and read Hungangels, notwithstanding the highminded content of this thread, How sure are you you aren't being watched? How patriotic would you feel if you were?



FK

[Legend]

Im all for freedom and protecting ourselves from terriost but this is bullshit,i know there is a balance between freedom and security but do you really need to invade peoples privacy and rights, Hell no im will sign this petition no problem.

[December]

There had god-dammit better be a group of senators with the spine to filibuster!!!

I've had this awful feeling that the real reason it got the extension, and the real reason it was passed in the first place, is that both parties have fantasies about what they can use the more draconian provisios to do once their man is in power.

Think about it, if the "Patriot Act" had been in force, how much of a fuss would there have been about Waco? Ruby Ridge?? It doesn't matter how many laws you pass, only the law-abiding are ever impacted by "Security measures" like this.

It's a writ of Imperium and the thing our founding fathers feared most. (good Franklin quote, btw). It's a sign of the growing plague of cowardice in our leaders that such a measure could ever be considered-there is no safety in tyranny-except for tyrants.

[scipio]

The Patriot Act hasnt made ANYONE safer...its still easy to cross our borders, and just as easy to run a suicide bomb into a populated building.....All the Patriot Act has done is made US citizens less free. Its a bunch of Nazi crap...You know Hitler ALSO called his apparatus the Department of Homeland Security...and sold the same type of shit to the Germans through fear mongering......Fucking disgusting....Ive actually ended friendships with people I knew just because theyve supported this administration...If they are for it, obviously we have nothing worthwhile in common.

Too right. Here's what a top Nazi said, even after the war:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

[BlackAdder]

You know, thats exactly the thing i was reading, I just couldnt remember it cause I read those peices 12 years ago in some Criminal Justice class lol....

[chefmike]

shrubya's toilet paper...

[BOATER]

16 measures of The Patriot Act got approved bt the House.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10467408/from/RL.1/

[chefmike]

:arrow:

[yourdaddy]

Eleven more years. mike, why don't you and seanchai get a quaint little cottage together, somewhere in the British Isles. It'll be difficult, but eventually you can learn to cook English. See, between howard and hillary, you're party is going over the deep end once again. You'll drive yourself absolutely nuts trying to post your politics on Transgender forums for that long. Maybe in 11 years you'll have grown out of your cartoon stage, and you can come back and add some honest rhetoric to the American political stage. Actually, better get a 19 year lease on that cottage, because Condy will be succeeded by Jeb. Enjoy your 20 years in political purgatory.

[chefmike]

I dont see why you feed Yourdaddy...The man obviously has blind faith, and you cant logically argue someone who has faith.....its like teaching a fish to iceskate.


It's like picking at a scab. You know you shouldn't but it feels good anyway.
seanchai

:claps

[GroobySteven]

Eleven more years. mike, why don't you and seanchai get a quaint little cottage together, somewhere in the British Isles. It'll be difficult, but eventually you can learn to cook English. See, between howard and hillary, you're party is going over the deep end once again. You'll drive yourself absolutely nuts trying to post your politics on Transgender forums for that long. Maybe in 11 years you'll have grown out of your cartoon stage, and you can come back and add some honest rhetoric to the American political stage. Actually, better get a 19 year lease on that cottage, because Condy will be succeeded by Jeb. Enjoy your 20 years in political purgatory.

Oh I'll be out of here, don't worry - I'll be gone by mid-2006 and taking all my tax dollars with me. I'll send you my used bedsheets so you can make up some new uniforms on the cheap.
Neither of these parties are mine - they're both a joke, it's just a shame so many people have to be affected by it.
I think your sad little life may have just got the better of you in 11 years...don't you?
seanchai