Clemency bid denied for Stanley Tookie Williams

[BottomBoySlave]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html

I didn't think that Schwarzenegger would have denied clemency.

[yourdaddy]

Neither did the California 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, the most liberal court in the nation. The Ca. Supreme Court turned him down also. The guy is guilty.

[tubgirl]

everyone better say their good-byes quickly...

[bigd321]

I wanted to be madat Arnold but he made a great point

"Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

That statement is true...

OIt's idiotic to say "everyone is better" because Tookie poses no danger to anyone locked behind bars and even if he was free I doubt he could pose any harm.

[magic9inch]

riots in la?

[swamprat4077]

He killed 4 people.
I couldnt care less what he's done since, becasue none of that brings the people he killed back.

Sounds simple enough, admit to what he did. To what he was convicted of.
Show some damn remorse.

Other than that, i only wish he could feel the pain he infliced on others as he dies.

[bigd321]

He killed 4 people.
I couldnt care less what he's done since, becasue none of that brings the people he killed back.

Sounds simple enough, admit to what he did. To what he was convicted of.
Show some damn remorse.

Other than that, i only wish he could feel the pain he infliced on others as he dies.

Damn, who the fuck is that on your avator.

[4DegreesWarmer]

Well, I'm not saddened by this outcome. Like I said previously, in the 1st thread dedicated to him...despite my respect for the work he's done since being on death row, he can't make amends to the dead. Of course some people disagree citing the "eye for an eye" mentality, stating that it's barbaric and that life imprisonment would be far harsher.

I disagree...it's more about him forfeiting his rights(to live) as a result of irreparably violating the rights of others.

As for life imprisonment being more severe...that's relative, but indeed the death penalty is feared. Every sane person, despite appearing stoic and "tough" values their life in some way...the need for self-preservation. That should've been apparent from his scrambling around attempting to receive clemency.

[Quinn]

While I’m not generally a big fan of the death penalty, I am of the opinion that this guy fucking deserves it. It’s not like he blew away other gang members or people involved in a similarly violent lifestyle who knowingly accepted certain risks. He blew away civilians for the sheer pleasure of the kill.

-Quinn

[Legend]

This guy laugh at his victum garbling on his blood and they are acting like he is a saint give me a break now lets tell snoop doggy dog and the other hollywood phonys to move on and keep being phony.

[GroobySteven]

I completely disagree with the death penalty - completely.
However, in a country which has the death penalty, when juveniles and the mentally retarded can be executed then I fail to see why someone should be given clemency because of actions he took after the fact. I think there are probably individuals on death row who are not in the public spotlight, who should be as eligable to be reprieved as this individual.
seanchai

[General124]

So, The Terminator, puts another nail in his political career, no shit he'll be kicked out. I'm not a big fan of the Death Penalty...

There are going to be many one term governors over the next few years. Blanco (Louisiana) has pretty much killed herself over Katrina.

[Quinn]

I think there are probably individuals on death row who are not in the public spotlight, who should be as eligable to be reprieved as this individual.


If not more so.

-Quinn

[Gus The Dagger]

The guy is guilty.

Sure is.

[chefmike]

I completely disagree with the death penalty - completely.
However, in a country which has the death penalty, when juveniles and the mentally retarded can be executed then I fail to see why someone should be given clemency because of actions he took after the fact. I think there are probably individuals on death row who are not in the public spotlight, who should be as eligable to be reprieved as this individual.
seanchai

co-sign

[Legend]

So you guys dont believe in justice?

[The American Nightmare]

I think he should be granted clemency. I think everyone should.

I fail to see how the death penalty accomplishes anything.

[GroobySteven]

So you guys dont believe in justice?

I do - but I refuse to be drawn into an arguement with anyone who has blind faith, who believes in Jesus yet also thinks "thou shalt kill", who comes out with the dumbest statements ever and basically has the intellectual capacity of an amoeba.
seanchai

[Felicia Katt]

The U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which denied Williams's appeal, remarked on his "laudable efforts opposing gang violence from his prison cell," and suggested that his "good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate for the exercise of gubernatorial discretion". Everyone is so focused on the facts of the crime that they are overlooking the actions of the man since then. Historically, clemency was equated with grace and mercy, not justice or fairness, allowing the consideration of a wide range of factors not comprehensible by earlier judicial proceedings and sentencing determinations.

The courts are where you look for justice. Clemency is supposed to be about mercy. Its hard to know what you would have to do to ever warrant clemency if getting nominated for a Nobel Peace prize while on death row is not enough. Everyone talks about a failure to admit to the crimes and express remorse. But if someone would rather die than do so, which is a very principled, not very pragmatic stand, that suggests they might not have done what they are convicted of. But politics are politics and if Arnie didn't have the guts to not veto gay marriage litigation, he wouldn't have the guts to grant anyone mercy.

FK

[JackHammer]

Apology and atonement for what? I sure as hell wouldn't apologize for something i know I didn't do. The hting here is the guy is notorious for having started the Crips street gang, and I'm sure that he's no saint by any stretch of the imagination, but its no secret that police forces throughout the coountry like to not only keep their books clean, but also stick it to their jurisdictions public enemies. It's no secret that this guy got "got" on the testimony of other criminals who were made offers they couldn't refuse. It's funny how in some cases, a known criminals testimony is usually poo-pahed, unless it's to bag another known criminal (happens all the time in Mafia related cases, so I guess the precedence is there).

So, the point is...would you apologize for something you've maintained you didn't do. let's face it, to apologize, after all this time, is tantamount to pleading guilty, which he never did. Soooooo....where do we stand...he gets the lethal injection and the story ends.

What then happens when someone else is found to be the real perp?

[Dkg]

So then I guess this is it. He's going to be executed by tomorrow....can't believe we still support capital punishment.

[Legend]

So you guys dont believe in justice?

I do - but I refuse to be drawn into an arguement with anyone who has blind faith, who believes in Jesus yet also thinks "thou shalt kill", who comes out with the dumbest statements ever and basically has the intellectual capacity of an amoeba.
seanchai

I would be offended if those insults werent coming from a leech like you,wait lets have a survey on how many times you have gone to fucking childish insults and racists at me.

[GroobySteven]

Not enough - you're still here, imbecile.
ARSE.
WANK.
TIT.

seanchai

[Legend]

The U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which denied Williams's appeal, remarked on his "laudable efforts opposing gang violence from his prison cell," and suggested that his "good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate for the exercise of gubernatorial discretion". Everyone is so focused on the facts of the crime that they are overlooking the actions of the man since then. Historically, clemency was equated with grace and mercy, not justice or fairness, allowing the consideration of a wide range of factors not comprehensible by earlier judicial proceedings and sentencing determinations.

The courts are where you look for justice. Clemency is supposed to be about mercy. Its hard to know what you would have to do to ever warrant clemency if getting nominated for a Nobel Peace prize while on death row is not enough. Everyone talks about a failure to admit to the crimes and express remorse. But if someone would rather die than do so, which is a very principled, not very pragmatic stand, that suggests they might not have done what they are convicted of. But politics are politics and if Arnie didn't have the guts to not veto gay marriage litigation, he wouldn't have the guts to grant anyone mercy.

FK

Isnt clemency part of admitting to what you have done and regret doing it?

[brickcitybrother]

Redemption


For a man who refuses to name the 'real killers' if it isn't himself?

For a man who claims to care about the lives of children ... but does not call for the end of the gang he claims to have 'started'? The reality is he did not START the crips (his partner did - he started the westside set of LA). But that is beside the point.

For a man who will not cooperate with law enforcement to solve other crimes so that other victims can have peace?

For a man who does not say the names of those he allegedly killed ... or even asks that people pray for their families?

For a man who still stays in contact with his gang friends (the very ones he refuses to turn over to the police)?

For a man who wants the "children of L.A. to remember me..."? What!?!?!!! How about remember your parents, your god, the good of others, the value of life. The sorry excuse for humankind, when given the opportunity to speak (via phone) to a large gathering of his supporters - asks that 'he' be remembered.

For a man who does not agree to the idea of life without the possibility of parole for himself - he did not get the brother of his victim Albert Owens to sign on to his request for clemency, by not agreeing to stop all efforts for his freedom if clemency is granted (the only prerequisite).

Redemption - biblically means means to buy back by paying a price, and being set free. I mean if we got right down to it - his execution is REDEMPTION as the benefits of redemption include eternal life (Rev. 5:9-10), forgiveness of sins (Ephs 1:7), righteousness (Rom. 5:17), freedom from the law’s curse (Gal. 3:13), adoption into God’s family (Gal. 4:5), deliverance from sin’s bondage (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:14-18), peace with God (Cols. 1:18-20), and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). To be redeemed, then, is to be forgiven, holy, justified, blessed, free, adopted, and reconciled. See also Psalm 130:7-8; Luke 2:38; and Acts 20:28. The Koran and the Torah are not much different in their views.

So let me get this straight. He's been in prison for approximately 20 years. And he killed four people one white and three Taiwanese. Ok let be real boy and girls. Ummm I guess that 5 years a piece right? That's the price of killing these innocent people who were face down and no threat. Wait ... I'm sorry maybe its really 10 years for the Owens and 3 and 1/3 for the Taiwanese immigrants. Oh wait ... maybe he didn't understand that the Taiwanese were Taiwanese and he thought they were Koreans (it was LA) and that gave him some license.... I mean come on.

Your son, father, mother, daughter, sister, brother, wife, husband - killed by a guy - because their wasn't enough money in the 'till. By a guy who later laughs about he deeds and who his victims twitched.

Seanchai, Allanah, and all of you who are against the death penalty. I'm with you - really. I think its been applied in an unjust and haphazard, if not outright racist manner. Yes, it should be abolished because an error is irreversible. But, this manipulative murderer - the Cause Celebre for you? Damn - makes me think you guys have no clue. I guess Hilter, Stalin and
Mao were just wayward gentlemen who should have been given a second or third chance. I mean hey - Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Prize (doesn't that make everything all right now?)

Redemption ... Has Stanley Williams demonstrated a single itota of a molecule of understanding of the concept? I think not.

He should follow his dream to its logical conclusion.

P.S. If he is innocent (which his lawyers DO NOT ARGUE. I repeat HIS LAWYERS DO NOT AGRUE HE IS INNOCENT). Then he can take solace that he can face his victims and naysayers in the hereafter with a smile and words of forgiveness.


Damn I can rant!!!!!

P.P.S.

I have the opinion that lay's out Mr. Williams' crimes and his best arguments (including two that are the best to read 1) that the court should have determined whether he was competent - not that he wasn't - but the court should have looked into it anyway and 2) Get this now - he was FORCED TO BE A GANG MEMBER. FORCED! Its PDF so I can't post it - but i have it if you care to see it.

Ok ... Yes I can really rant.

[Legend]

Redemption


For a man who refuses to name the 'real killers' if it isn't himself?

For a man who claims to care about the lives of children ... but does not call for the end of the gang he claims to have 'started'? The reality is he did not START the crips (his partner did - he started the westside set of LA). But that is beside the point.

For a man who will not cooperate with law enforcement to solve other crimes so that other victims can have peace?

For a man who does not say the names of those he allegedly killed ... or even asks that people pray for their families?

For a man who still stays in contact with his gang friends (the very ones he refuses to turn over to the police)?

For a man who wants the "children of L.A. to remember me..."? What!?!?!!! How about remember your parents, your god, the good of others, the value of life. The sorry excuse for humankind, when given the opportunity to speak (via phone) to a large gathering of his supporters - asks that 'he' be remembered.

For a man who does not agree to the idea of life without the possibility of parole for himself - he did not get the brother of his victim Albert Owens to sign on to his request for clemency, by not agreeing to stop all efforts for his freedom if clemency is granted (the only prerequisite).

Redemption - biblically means means to buy back by paying a price, and being set free. I mean if we got right down to it - his execution is REDEMPTION as the benefits of redemption include eternal life (Rev. 5:9-10), forgiveness of sins (Ephs 1:7), righteousness (Rom. 5:17), freedom from the law’s curse (Gal. 3:13), adoption into God’s family (Gal. 4:5), deliverance from sin’s bondage (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:14-18), peace with God (Cols. 1:18-20), and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). To be redeemed, then, is to be forgiven, holy, justified, blessed, free, adopted, and reconciled. See also Psalm 130:7-8; Luke 2:38; and Acts 20:28. The Koran and the Torah are not much different in their views.

So let me get this straight. He's been in prison for approximately 20 years. And he killed four people one white and three Taiwanese. Ok let be real boy and girls. Ummm I guess that 5 years a piece right? That's the price of killing these innocent people who were face down and no threat. Wait ... I'm sorry maybe its really 10 years for the Owens and 3 and 1/3 for the Taiwanese immigrants. Oh wait ... maybe he didn't understand that the Taiwanese were Taiwanese and he thought they were Koreans (it was LA) and that gave him some license.... I mean come on.

Your son, father, mother, daughter, sister, brother, wife, husband - killed by a guy - because their wasn't enough money in the 'till. By a guy who later laughs about he deeds and who his victims twitched.

Seanchai, Allanah, and all of you who are against the death penalty. I'm with you - really. I think its been applied in an unjust and haphazard, if not outright racist manner. Yes, it should be abolished because an error is irreversible. But, this manipulative murderer - the Cause Celebre for you? Damn - makes me think you guys have no clue. I guess Hilter, Stalin and
Mao were just wayward gentlemen who should have been given a second or third chance. I mean hey - Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Prize (doesn't that make everything all right now?)

Redemption ... Has Stanley Williams demonstrated a single itota of a molecule of understanding of the concept? I think not.

He should follow his dream to its logical conclusion.

P.S. If he is innocent (which his lawyers DO NOT ARGUE. I repeat HIS LAWYERS DO NOT AGRUE HE IS INNOCENT). Then he can take solace that he can face his victims and naysayers in the hereafter with a smile and words of forgiveness.


Damn I can rant!!!!!

P.P.S.

I have the opinion that lay's out Mr. Williams' crimes and his best arguments (including two that are the best to read 1) that the court should have determined whether he was competent - not that he wasn't - but the court should have looked into it anyway and 2) Get this now - he was FORCED TO BE A GANG MEMBER. FORCED! Its PDF so I can't post it - but i have it if you care to see it.

Ok ... Yes I can really rant.

A good rant man.

"By a guy who later laughs about he deeds and who his victims twitched."

I can't believe people sympathize for this guy.

[brickcitybrother]

The U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which denied Williams's appeal, remarked on his "laudable efforts opposing gang violence from his prison cell," and suggested that his "good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate for the exercise of gubernatorial discretion". Everyone is so focused on the facts of the crime that they are overlooking the actions of the man since then. Historically, clemency was equated with grace and mercy, not justice or fairness, allowing the consideration of a wide range of factors not comprehensible by earlier judicial proceedings and sentencing determinations.

The courts are where you look for justice. Clemency is supposed to be about mercy. Its hard to know what you would have to do to ever warrant clemency if getting nominated for a Nobel Peace prize while on death row is not enough. Everyone talks about a failure to admit to the crimes and express remorse. But if someone would rather die than do so, which is a very principled, not very pragmatic stand, that suggests they might not have done what they are convicted of. But politics are politics and if Arnie didn't have the guts to not veto gay marriage litigation, he wouldn't have the guts to grant anyone mercy.

FK

If he didn't do - than why won't he say who was involved. Oh I get it - I'm redeemed, but my friends aren't so I can't tell on them - they might have to face the music.

As regards your argument that "if getting nominated for a Nobel Peace prize" isn't enough... well Hitler got nominated for one. I guess, given the chance, he would have been a model citizen. Next argument

And with your argument "if someone would rather die than [apologize for something they didn't] do so, which is a very principled, not very pragmatic stand, that suggests they might not have done what they are convicted of. True - he he would stand up and be PRINCIPLED and say - I did not do it - Mr. Fill in the blank.

P.S. - Let's not forget that his lawyers do not claim he's innocent in their appeals. And yes, I saw the affidavit where someone who knows someone heard that someone heard that someone OTHER than Mr. Williams 'pulled the trigger' on the Owens victim. Ok, if he didn't that - then he should walk. I guess the Twianese victims' lives don't count for squat huh?

[scipio]

I completely disagree with the death penalty - completely.
However, in a country which has the death penalty, when juveniles and the mentally retarded can be executed then I fail to see why someone should be given clemency because of actions he took after the fact. I think there are probably individuals on death row who are not in the public spotlight, who should be as eligable to be reprieved as this individual.
seanchai

I have to agree with this.

Also, the point made about confessing or showing remorse (and the fact that he apparently hadn't) is a good one. Even if, as some have said, he was actually innocent of these crimes, he could demonstrate remorse by helping shop other criminals that he knew about (which he did not).

While I completely disagree with the death penalty, I don't fault the logic for the denial of clemency.

[brickcitybrother]

What then happens when someone else is found to be the real perp?

I'll wonder why Mr. Williams did not 'redeem' himself by advising the authorities of the actual killer or killers.

But the again - I no I won't let this go - for reasons few may understand - His Lawyers have not asked for clemency based on his INNOCENCE! His lawyers are not arguing he is INNOCENT.

[Felicia Katt]

Isnt clemency admitting to what you have done and regret doing it?

No. That is just one factor to consider. A more important factor, according to the Department of Justice is the person's post-conviction conduct, character, and reputation. Their guidlines specify the absence of expressions of remorse should not preclude favorable consideration.

In the bible, Jesus had been found guilty of blasphemy, a capital offense, by the priests and council elders, and was taken before Pontius Pilate, governor of Judea, who had the power to commute a sentence at Passover. Pilate declined to grant Jesus clemency and washed his hands
of the affair.

Do you think Christ should have had to admit guilt to get mercy?

FK

[Quinn]

Here's an excerpt from a great article about how he was convicted of those crimes. It also contains a nice list of his crimes while in prison. Arguing the effectivness or moral strength of the death penalty is one thing, but arguing that this guy didn't do it seems a bit silly. And, yes, I know that the police are not above "helping" a conviciton along, but this guy did all of the work for them. Anyway, here's the excerpt:

Though Williams has steadfastly denied committing the four murders, the DA's report says he admitted the crimes to the following people:

James Garrett, a man with whom Williams lived most of the time before and after the murders were committed. The DA says Garrett possessed specific details of the crime and that Williams threatened to kill one of his accomplices, Alfred Coward.

Ester Garrett, the wife of James Garrett, who said Williams characterized the Taiwanese motel owners murdered in one of the robberies as "Buddhaheads." She said Williams also admitted killing another "white dude" for $63 and indicated he was also considering killing Coward.

Coward, one of Williams' accomplices, testified that Williams laughed about the murder of Owens. "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," Coward recalled Williams saying. He followed this statement with growling noises.

Tony Sims, another accomplice did not testify in the Williams' case because he was not offered immunity. But his sworn testimony in his own trial, in which he received a life sentence, corroborated the account of Coward. In subsequent parole hearings over the last 26 years, his account of Williams' execution-style murders of the victims has never changed.

In addition, the DA report says Williams implicated himself in the murders at the motel by telling deputies after his arrest that five shots were fired.

"Williams, in a moment of mistaken candor, provided detectives with information only the killer would know," the report says. "Moreover, he repeated that knowledge twice. When confronted with this apparent knowledge, Williams against acting as the guilty party, retracted the statements and denied saying what he had just been heard to say. These statements and Williams' immediate retraction of them are admissions to the Brookhaven (Motel) murders. Williams knew five shots were fired because it was Williams who pulled the trigger each of those five times."

The DA report also contains revelations about a plot by Williams to escape from the Los Angeles County Jail, killing two deputies in the process and then murdering Coward.

That plan was disclosed by fellow inmate George Oglesby, who provided handwritten notes and detailed maps. Two armed people on the outside were to aid the plan, which involved blowing up a prisoner transport bus with dynamite to delay identification of who escaped.

In one of those notes, Williams wrote that Coward was a "heartbeat away from death." Oglesby said Williams planned to kill Coward because he was a witness against him.

While Williams' celebrity cheerleaders have claimed he has been a model prisoner throughout his sentence and have pointed to this as evidence of his rehabilitation, the DA's report contains 11 examples of incidents for which he was disciplined, beginning in 1981 and continuing through 1993. They include:

a violent fight with another inmate June 30, 1981, in which he repeatedly struck the prisoner while kneeling over him;

a refusal to line up for a return to his cell Jan. 26, 1982, in which he threatened a guard;

throwing a chemical substance in the eyes of a guard Jan. 28, 1982, in an attack that resulted in chemical burns and emergency treatment;

a second attack on a guard with a chemical substance Jan. 29, 1982;

an attack on another inmate Feb. 16, 1984, in which Williams only stopped beating the prisoner when a warning shot was fired;

a threat to kill a guard June 8, 1984;

the beating of another inmate July 4, 1986 that only ceased when armed officers arrived on the scene;

another fight with an inmate that led to his own stabbing, reportedly retaliation for his ordering another inmate to be stabbed;

his continued association with the Crips street gang led to administrative segregation Oct. 19, 1988;

the beating of another inmate Dec. 24, 1991, that only stopped after a warning shot was fired;

another fight with other inmates July 6, 1993, in which a stabbing instrument (shank) was recovered.
The DA's report also says Williams threatened all of the jurors after they found him guilty.

"Specifically, the defendant looked at the jurors and said he 'was going to get all' of them," said the report. "After learning of this threat, the trial judge inquired of the jury foreperson. The foreperson confirmed the defendant mouthed the words 'I'm going to get each and every one of you m-----f------."

If anyone wants to read the whole thing, it can be found here:
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47647

-Quinn

[Felicia Katt]

His Lawyers have not asked for clemency based on his INNOCENCE! His lawyers are not arguing he is INNOCENT

His lawyers have not argued that because the standard is provably innocent ie they have absolute proof that someone else did the crime. Thats a virtually impossible standard of proof. They have never once admitted his guilt and have raised a lot of questions about the witnesses and the physical evidence and the exclusion of blacks from the jury and the prosecution's labelling him a jungle cat and his neighborhood the jungle in their arguments. But they don't have concrete proof someone else did the crime. So its not something they can raise. Lets hope that the jury and system was right, and that proof of his innocence doesn't surface later. Because another thing that can't be raised will be Willams from the dead.

FK

[brickcitybrother]

Isnt clemency admitting to what you have done and regret doing it?

In the bible, Jesus had been found guilty of blasphemy, a capital offense, by the priests and council elders, and was taken before Pontius Pilate, governor of Judea, who had the power to commute a sentence at Passover. Pilate declined to grant Jesus clemency and washed his hands
of the affair.

Do you think Christ should have had to admit guilt to get mercy?

FK

I am not fighting Legend's battles - but I'd like to answer your question first with a few questions.
Did Jesus deny who he was?
Did Jesus deny what he did?
Did Jesus say to Pontius Pilate - Save me from death?

Ok - I brought the good book into this - only because Mr. Williams was trying to twist the idea of redemption partly referring to it.

To answer your question - Nope.

But to be fair to the anology - Jesus being before Pontius Pilate is more like Mr. Williams being before the jury (not the governor). And in this case - the jury as spoken.

[The American Nightmare]

Good lord. I will never understand how one can be a devout Christian and be in favor of the death penalty. The religion centers around a man who was wrongfully executed.

Jesus tapdancing Christ

[GroobySteven]

Good lord. I will never understand how one can be a devout Christian and be in favor of the death penalty. The religion centers around a man who was wrongfully executed.

Jesus tapdancing Christ

Amen to that.

[brickcitybrother]

His Lawyers have not asked for clemency based on his INNOCENCE! His lawyers are not arguing he is INNOCENT

His lawyers have not argued that because the standard is provably innocent ie they have absolute proof that someone else did the crime. Thats a virtually impossible standard of proof. They have never once admitted his guilt and have raised a lot of questions about the witnesses and the physical evidence and the exclusion of blacks from the jury and the prosecution's labelling him a jungle cat and his neighborhood the jungle in their arguments. But they don't have concrete proof someone else did the crime. So its not something they can raise. Lets hope that the jury and system was right, and that proof of his innocence doesn't surface later. Because another thing that can't be raised will be Willams from the dead.

FK

And the lawyers don't have their own client stating someone ELSE did the crime either!

There is no agrument regarding physical evidence - Period.

The original prosecutor states their was one person who he thought was black. The jury was actually made up of 9 whites, 1 Asian (thought to be Filipino, 1 Latino and 1 person who racial identity is unclear (and argued to be part African-American) For reasons I do not know - no on can confirm the racial identity of this juror - which leads me to believe it is probably not very helpful to either side. Though I would think defense counsel would've gone after that more much strongly if it held much water. Personally, I doubt that person was African-American.

[Felicia Katt]

I read that article and was struck by the fact that for all his earlier violence in prison, he had been a model prisoner for the last 12 years. For the last half of his 24 years in that hell, he was not the devil.

I was also struck by the facts you didn't include. Coward cut a deal and drew no jail time. The gun alleged to be used in the killings was registered to Williams but was found under James and Esther Garretts bed. They also cut deals with the prosecution for their testimony. Tony Sims tried to blame Williams in his separate trial but was still convicted and given life in prison without the possbility of parole. Another witness was a jailhouse informant who apparently was given access to the police report overnight before giving his statement. He recieved a drastically reduced sentence. Another witness said he was beaten by the police into giving his statement.

I'm not arguing that Willams is innocent. But there are questions as to his guilt. Being sentenced to die in prison is harsh enough punishment without the State having to kill him.

FK

[brickcitybrother]

Hey Gang - I'd like to stop my rant myself and I think the best way is to share with you - what Mr. Williams will not - the details of his acts - unedited and no commentary

1. The 7-Eleven Murder and Robbery.


Alfred Coward, a government witness, testified
to the events leading to the murder of Albert Lewis Owens,
an employee of a 7-Eleven store in Whittier, California. See
id. at 905. Coward stated that at approximately 10:30 p.m. on
February 27, 1979, Williams dropped by Coward’s house.
The two men then went to James Garrett’s house, where Williams
was staying. Only Williams went inside, returning with
a sawed-off shotgun and accompanied by a man named Darryl.
The three men made several stops, including one to obtain
“Sherms,” cigarettes containing phencyclidene (“PCP”). After sharing a Sherm, the three picked up Tony Simms. Williams
then had a second Sherm with Coward and Simms, and asked
Simms if he knew where they could “make money.”
Coward testified that, taking two cars, the four men made
two unsuccessful restaurant and liquor-store robbery attempts.
Subsequently, they went to a 7-Eleven where Owens was
sweeping the parking lot. Simms and Darryl went into the
store, followed by Owens, Williams, and Coward. Williams,
the only one with a weapon, approached Owens and ordered
him to keep walking. Owens walked toward the back rooms
of the store with Williams and Coward following him. Williams
instructed Owens to lie down, which he did. Williams
shot out the store’s television monitor and then shot and killed
Owens.

According to Coward, the four men returned to Simms’s
house where they divided among them the $120 that they had
taken from the 7-Eleven cash register. When Simms asked
Williams why he had shot Owens, Williams responded that he
did not want to leave any witnesses. He also said that the
shotgun shells could not be traced, and that he had retrieved
a few of them.

Coward saw Williams later that morning at Williams’s
brother’s home. Williams told his brother about Owens, saying:
“You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot
him.” Williams then made a growling noise and laughed hysterically
for a number of minutes.

2. The Brookhaven Motel Murders and Robbery.

Robert Yang and his family lived in and owned the
Brookhaven Motel on South Vermont Street in Los Angeles,
California. At about 5 a.m. on March 11, 1979, Yang heard
a woman’s screams and three or four shots. A few minutes
later, he left his bedroom and saw that the door separating the
motel office from the family’s living quarters was ajar. The
door seemed to have been forced open from the outside. Yang
discovered his father, mother, and sister, all fatally wounded
from shotgun fire. The cash drawer was open and empty.

The police found two shotgun shell casings at the scene. A
firearms expert testified that one of the shells could only have
been fired from a weapon that Williams had purchased in
1974.

Four witnesses provided testimony identifying Williams as
a perpetrator of the Brookhaven Motel murders and robbery.
Samuel Coleman, testifying as a government
witness, stated that on March 10, 1979 he and Williams went
to the Showcase Bar, where Coleman remained until it closed
around 6 a.m. Coleman last remembered seeing Williams at
about 2:30 a.m. The next day, Williams told Coleman that he
had robbed and killed some people on Vermont Street. Williams
said that he had obtained approximately $50 from the
robbery-murder and was going to use it to buy PCP.

James Garrett testified that Williams kept some of his possessions
at the Garrett house and stayed there approximately
five days a week. Early on the morning of March 13, 1979,
Williams told James Garrett and his wife that he had heard of
the killing of some “Chinese people” on Vermont Street. Williams
said that he did not know how the murders had
occurred, but thought that the murderers were professionals
because they had left no shells or witnesses at the scene. Williams
also stated that he had heard that the killings had taken
place at 5 a.m., and that two men had knocked down the door
and taken $600.

Williams later spoke to James Garrett a second time about
the Brookhaven Motel murders and robbery. Williams
described the incident, saying: “[A]fter the big guy knocked
the door down, he went in the motel, and there was a guy laying
on the couch, and he blew him away.” Williams said that
the man on the couch and a woman at the cash register were
shot twice, and that another woman was also shot. James Garrett
testified that Williams then indicated that he was the “big
guy.”

Esther Garrett confirmed the statements made by her hus-band.
She testified that Williams informed them that the
Brookhaven Motel murderers were using the money taken
from the cash register to buy “juice,” or PCP, and that they
had picked up the shotgun shells so that there would be no
evidence for the police. Williams also told Esther Garrett, outside
the presence of her husband, that he, Williams, had com-mitted
the murders with his brother-in-law.

George Oglesby, an inmate housed in the same cell block
as Williams, testified that Williams admitted to shooting a
man, a woman, and a child in the course of robbing a motel.
Oglesby also testified in detail to Williams’s
plan to escape from jail. Williams had invited Oglesby
to participate in the plan, which was complete with drawings
and involved an escape during a bus transfer from jail to
court. Two persons outside of jail were to disarm
the officer driving the bus, and then Williams was to kill
the person on the bus who planned to testify against Williams,
as well as the two officers accompanying the bus. Williams
later modified the plan to include blowing up the bus in order
to prevent the authorities from quickly determining who had
escaped.

After receiving two notes from Williams relating informa-tion
about outside participants in the escape plan, Oglesby
informed Lieutenant Fitzgerald of the planned escape. Williams subsequently sent Oglesby more notes discussing the
escape. The initial target date for the escape was June 12, 1979.
However, Williams aborted the escape attempt planned for
this day because he could not ensure that he and Oglesby
would be transferred to court at the same time. In addition,
after one of his court appearances, Williams informed
Oglesby that the escape attempt had to be cancelled because
Williams believed that two police vehicles had followed the
bus transporting Williams between jail and court. Williams
then altered the escape plan so that the escape attempt would
occur after they left court.

The two cases were presented seperately. Williams, through counsel was allowed to tell the jury that Coward and Garrett were given immunity for their testimony. Williams' counsel was allowed to call Oglesby a well-known 'jailhouse rat'. His original appeal to the California State Supreme Court was based on 1) Oglesby elicited incriminating
statements from Williams in violation of his rights or 2) Oglesby was a government agent that interrogated Williams in violation of the Fifth Amendment and finally Williams’s trial counsel was ineffective for failing to object to Oglesby’s testimony.

Okay I we clear now.

I might come back - maybe - tomorrow. But for now - That's my closing statement... lol

Oh yeah - I want Mr. Williams to have what he did not give others .... mercy (whether its these victims or the others he admits to when refrring to his 'wrongs'. May god have mercy on him.

[Quinn]

I read that article and was struck by the fact that for all his earlier violence in prison, he had been a model prisoner for the last 12 years. For the last half of his 24 years in that hell, he was not the devil.

I was also struck by the facts you didn't include. Coward cut a deal and drew no jail time. The gun alleged to be used in the killings was registered to Williams but was found under James and Esther Garretts bed. They also cut deals with the prosecution for their testimony. Tony Sims tried to blame Williams in his separate trial but was still convicted and given life in prison without the possbility of parole. Another witness was a jailhouse informant who apparently was given access to the police report overnight before giving his statement. He recieved a drastically reduced sentence. Another witness said he was beaten by the police into giving his statement.

I'm not arguing that Willams is innocent. But there are questions as to his guilt. Being sentenced to die in prison is harsh enough punishment without the State having to kill him.

FK

I didn't put the entirety of the article up because I figured no one would read it if it was too long (that's what the seperate link was for). Anyway, as I've stated previously, I'm not a big supporter of the death penalty. A number of innocent people have been executed, and the fact is that it's mostly poor people who can't afford proper legal representation that are assigned said penalty. However, being against the death penalty's current method of implementation is not the same as being against it in principle, which I am not. In my opinion, there are some truly heinous individuals without whom humanity is better off - and this guy is clearly one of them by even the most forgiving of standards.

I often hear people say that life in prison is punishment enough. As someone who has done time, I couldn't disagree more. Speaking from my own experience, I can tell you that once you get past the initial shock of incarceration, it's like being in the army or being away at camp. It ceases to be punishment. The fact is that if you are strong, cunning, or connected, life inside can offer you opportunities that you might not otherwise receive on the outside. For predators like Williams, prison is a cake walk.

As for Williams being a model prisoner over the last twelve years, I would wager that has had more to do with him being placed in Administrative Segregation (isolation) than anything else. Anyone can behave when they don't have to interact with other prisoners.

-Quinn

[Felicia Katt]

But to be fair to the anology - Jesus being before Pontius Pilate is more like Mr. Williams being before the jury (not the governor). And in this case - the jury as spoken.

Pontius Pilate was the Roman governor. Jesus had already been convicted by a tribunal of Priests. Pilate had the right to grant clemency but caved into political pressure and did not grant it.

I wasn't analogizing Christ to Williams. Just trying to give Legend some perspective on the long recognized princple of clemency.

FK

[NickTheQuick]

I used to drive a Pontius Bonneville.

[tubgirl]

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookiewilliamsvictims.html

^^Pictures of his victims after he shot em^^

Have a look at those pictures.. then think about whether or not he deserves some sort of punishment more than the 3 free square meals a day and tv watching he gets now. Wrote kids books? oh ok i guess i can forgive blowing a girls face off... sigh.

[tubgirl]

two more things:

1.he isnt in *PRISON* he is on death row. death row has nothing to do with reformation of the inmate it has to do with punishment and setting example for other would be criminals

2.I was actually reading about this in the paper today. It actually fucking said in there that his dumb fuck lawyer stated that he had repaid his debt for the murder of 4 people with his 24 years served. How the fuck does someone think they can become a better person because they served time for murdering people?

Execute the fuck!

[The American Nightmare]

Execute the fuck! And what purpose does this serve?

Your post highlights the reason why many people support the death penalty. The reason that no one will admit.

Some people want criminals to die just to make themselves feel better.

[tubgirl]

Stanley Williams should be executed because he was convicted and sentenced to death. If anything the people arguing to stop this execution seem to be arguing on the grounds of all the good things he's done in prison in the 24 years since he was sentenced. So their argument is really that the time between sentencing and execution should be shortened. Shortening this time would fix difficulties like this from occuring again.

[tubgirl]

I say it slow.
killing innocent people = bad
killing mad dog killers = good
tookie kill = bad
now tookie die for killing = Good
Don't kill unoffending people & expect my sympathy. Catch that?

[The American Nightmare]

Stanley Williams should be executed because he was convicted and sentenced to death. If anything the people arguing to stop this execution seem to be arguing on the grounds of all the good things he's done in prison in the 24 years since he was sentenced. So their argument is really that the time between sentencing and execution should be shortened. Shortening this time would fix difficulties like this from occuring again. That made no sense whatsoever.

And you still haven't shown that executing a criminal serves a purpose. Making yourself feel better does not pass as "valid" for me.

[kink234]

Williams is guilty no doubt about it and he should pay for his crimes, but I see it this way, By killing him what do we get out it? We get to make ourselves feel better by saying justice is done? Do the families of the people he killed get their loved ones back? No, they don't. So why kill him? I believe being in prision for the rest of your life is a much worse punishment than death. And for those who say he shows no remorse for what he did or admitted what he did, you cannot admit to something you did not do. And if he in fact did do after all this time of saying he didn't do it that makes him worse off. Better to die with diginty than die as a lier and a murderer

[Adam_Thompson]

so is everyone simply arguing over the death penalty... like whether it is morally right or not?

[4DegreesWarmer]

And you still haven't shown that executing a criminal serves a purpose. Making yourself feel better does not pass as "valid" for me.

And I don't think you or the many others who seem to share your disposition have proven to the contrary. Of course the common retort to those in favor of the death penalty seems to be that his life in payment of the lives he took solves nothing...yet what would his life imprisonment solve? By your logic, justice is life without the possiblity of parole receiving "3 hots and a cot," television, the opportunity to read and reflect, lift weights, and write wonderful children's books. Ok, I get it now...makes perfect sense...justice served.

I love people that go on and on yammering away that his death brings about nothing, it doesn't bring back those murdered, and it does nothing but satisfy the vengeful. Yet, a point I've brought up twice never receives a response. How about the death penalty serving the purpose of justice...in the sense that any person who consciously and unjustly commits a crime violating the rights of someone else forfeits their own. In the case of Williams that would mean his right to live. Of course on a superficial level people feel at ease when a "proven" murderer is put to death...feeling some sort of poetic justice has been served. However, I believe the issue goes much deeper than that...it holds a greater purpose.

For all the bleeding hearts, I pose a question(s)...How can you repay the dead? How can you calculate a number of years-10, 15, 20, 25, etc and consider that a debt paid in return for taking someones life? Are the potential and future possiblities for a single victim requited merely with 20-25 years? What in their actions call for a 2nd chance-an opportunity at rehabilitation? For those suggesting life imprisonment, how do you propose that the life of a prisoner having the comforts that they receive is a punishment that fits the crime? For those murdered...there is no comfort of having a roof over their heads, food in their bellies, and comfy basic cable tv. For them every dream and every hope is gone...the only possible comfort they have is if there truly is another plane of existence...a life after this one, but that surely is not a guarantee.

I'm by no means in favor of the way the prison system has been set up, currently running, and will continue to run so lang as it is profitable, but in theory...I'm firmly in favor of the death penalty.

[Quinn]

I believe being in prision for the rest of your life is a much worse punishment than death.

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but this is just plain nonsense. If this were correct – which anyone who has done time in jail or prison will tell you that it isn't – then why do the overwhelming majority of inmates on death row fight so hard to have their sentences commuted to life in prison?

-Quinn

[4DegreesWarmer]

I believe being in prision for the rest of your life is a much worse punishment than death.

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but this is just plain nonsense. If this were correct – which anyone who has done time in jail or prison will tell you that it isn't – then why do the overwhelming majority of inmates on death row fight so hard to have their sentences commuted to life in prison?

-Quinn

Fucking a...I'd really like to know if those spouting such nonsense have ever done time or at the very least had a significant amount of contact visiting and knowing people inside. If so you might realize, unless insane...almost any of those immates would gladly take life in prison over death...listen, they're trying to tell you something :roll:

[Felicia Katt]

The true test of a free society is not in how it treats its best citizen but how it treats its worst, its most despised.

based on some of these posts in this thread, we fail that test pretty miserably.

FK

[tubgirl]

Stanley Williams should be executed because he was convicted and sentenced to death. If anything the people arguing to stop this execution seem to be arguing on the grounds of all the good things he's done in prison in the 24 years since he was sentenced. So their argument is really that the time between sentencing and execution should be shortened. Shortening this time would fix difficulties like this from occuring again. That made no sense whatsoever.

And you still haven't shown that executing a criminal serves a purpose. Making yourself feel better does not pass as "valid" for me.

No Einstein =his victims are still rotting & the animal that put them there will finally be rotting with them. He holds no power over them by the meaningless slaughter when he took their lives. As long as he breathes he owns their ass. The minute his heart stops his power in taking their lives ceases. Its time after 20 yrs. to take away the power he gained in killing four people.

that's the purpose. throw the switch, plunge the syringe, whatthefuckever... homie's dead

[tubgirl]

The true test of a free society is not in how it treats its best citizen but how it treats its worst, its most despised.

based on some of these posts in this thread, we fail that test pretty miserably.

FK

yeah, because people who kill should always be spared while they give their victims no such chance :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I believe being in prision for the rest of your life is a much worse punishment than death.

It migth seem that way to you and some people but hardly isnt the case. Taking people's lives isnt something we as people shouldnt "toy" or have any liberties with and "play" God.

Clemency will only be a precedent and shouldnt be given to people who commit such vile crimes IMO.

~Kisses.

HTG

[Felicia Katt]

yeah, because people who kill should always be spared while they give their victims no such chance :roll: :roll: :roll:

I hope are better than them, but fear we are not

FK

[BlackAdder]

"The minute his heart stops his power in taking their lives ceases. Its time after 20 yrs. to take away the power he gained in killing four people."

Dude, wtf are you talking about? Some wierd Chucky style metaphysical bullshit??

You honestly cant call yourself a Christian and ignore Jesus's teachings.......the religions fucked up because no one follows it as he intended......ergo...

If you consider yourself "Christian", Of Christ, and your pro-death penalty..you my friend, are fucked up and I hope Jesus doesnt judge you too harshly.


Just stop and consider.....Supposedly the most civilized and technologically advanced superpower in the world executes the mentally retarded and tries CHILDREN as adults.....WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???

[Legend]

The true test of a free society is not in how it treats its best citizen but how it treats its worst, its most despised.

based on some of these posts in this thread, we fail that test pretty miserably.

FK


Is that your own quote, i understand your a compassionate, sensitive person but honestly are you serious?

[BlackAdder]

Thats a very famous saying and I forget who its attributed to...but true nonetheless.

I dont think FK is kidding and I happen to agree with her.

[Adam_Thompson]

did you guys know Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize

[Legend]

What about law and order, if society didn't have that wtf kind of society would we have total chaos. I truly understand you guys are against the death penalty and a respect that,but you cant kill people bottom line.

If the death penalty wasn't enforce that would give people a reason too commit multiple murders without even considering punishment.

[GroobySteven]

What about law and order, if society didn't have that wtf kind of society would we have total chaos. I truly understand you guys are against the death penalty and a respect that,but you cant kill people bottom line.

If the death penalty wasn't enforce that would give people a reason too commit multiple murders without even considering punishment.

Many other countries with far less murders and far better law and punishment systems are operating without a death penalty.
You cannot kill people - bottom line.
You need to be punished.
However, having the death penalty isn't doing anything to stop future murders, it's no deterrant. The US imprisons more of it's employees than any other Western country (actually I think the stat is any country period).

Legend you've failed to answer any of the Christianity questions given you - yet again.
seanchai

[Felicia Katt]

Is that your own quote, i understand your a compassionate, sensitive person but honestly are you serious?
I paraphrased Fyodor Dostoevsky but I am pretty sure he was paraphrasing an earlier philosopher:

“I was in prison, and you came unto me. Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

~ (Jesus Christ) Matthew 25:36, 40

FK

[GroobySteven]

BTW those arguing that life in prison is worse than the death penalty are full of swedish meatballs also. Give the choice between death or prison...I'd choose cake, thankyou.
Death or cake?
Cake.
Death or cake?
Hmmm...cake, thanks.
Death or cake?
Death...
...nah just joking, I meant cake.
Too late now you said death.
No I meant cake, really.


seanchai

[Adam_Thompson]

Damn Fox News Live and Ghetto folks in the background clownin for the cameras at the execution..damn ghetto people and damn Fox for gettin them in the camera :x

[GroobySteven]

Damn Fox News Live and Ghetto folks in the background clownin for the cameras at the execution..damn ghetto people and damn Fox for gettin them in the camera :x

The question would be...you're watching Fox News...why?
seanchai

[Adam_Thompson]

These negroes are on their cell phones, laughing, and waving at the camera. One dude put his hat in front of the reporter showing off his area code on the hat.

[Adam_Thompson]

Damn Fox News Live and Ghetto folks in the background clownin for the cameras at the execution..damn ghetto people and damn Fox for gettin them in the camera :x

The question would be...you're watching Fox News...why?
seanchai

the same reason I watch BET comic view...I like to laugh AT them and not with them

[Felicia Katt]

did you guys know Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize

He was nominated once, in 1939, by a Swedish member of Parliment. The nomination was withdrawn before it was ever considered. One of his most prominent opponents von Ossietzky was nominated several times by a very wide variety of people. He was given the award in 1935 while in a German concentration camp.

FK

[Adam_Thompson]

did you guys know Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize

He was nominated once, in 1939, by a Swedish member of Parliment. The nomination was withdrawn before it was ever considered. One of his most prominent opponents von Ossietzky was nominated several times by a very wide variety of people. He was given the award in 1935 while in a German concentration camp.

FK

I knew that already, but thanks. Felicia Katt you're like the official Hungangels encyclopedia :wink:

[Legend]

Seanchai name one country where you can kill four people and get life in prison?

True it might not stop future murders but it might stop present murders from happening. People will think about their lives being taken if they take someone else's.

Me being christian has nothing to do with me believing in law and order.

Taking someone's life is never good and i understand how you and felicia feel and taking someone elses wont bring someone back. But this world is based on laws and you must obey them.

[Adam_Thompson]

So is murder ok or right...legally or illegally?

I think all of us would agree murder is wrong..period.

[GroobySteven]

Seanchai name one country where you can kill four people and get life in prison?

UK
Ireland
France
Italy
Spain
er...need I go on dumbo?



True it might not stop future murders but it might stop present murders from happening. People will think about their lives being taken if they take someone else's.

It's going to stop a murder happening now - like right now - like presently?
Any murder that happens after I write this is in the future, dumbo.
Fact is, that the murder rate has grown since the death penalty was re-introduced and what is even more worrying is that some of the states that execute the most people (Texas) the murder rate, I believe is still growing. So NO it doesn't stop present or future murders happening and it never has, past, present or future.




Me being christian has nothing to do with me believing in law and order.
Once again...thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek, blah blah. So you choose your religion when it suits you and your misguided attempt at law an order at other times. You would have been one of the people who sentenced Jesus to death as he broke the law at that time. Legend, you're washing your hands of responsibility. You are a hypocrit.


Taking someone's life is never good and i understand how you and felicia feel and taking someone elses wont bring someone back. But this world is based on laws and you must obey them.

You must obey laws? That's what the nazi's done? That's what the taliban does? Why can't you for once have you're own opinion on something instead of following a leader whether political or religious blindly. As I stated, in Jesus's time you would have strung the hairy bugger up just because he broke your law.
One question - and answer it this time... Do you think people should go to prison for having anal sex?
seanchai

[GroobySteven]

So is murder ok or right...legally or illegally?

I think all of us would agree murder is wrong..period.

You murder my friend or family - if I get the chance I'm going to want to kill you. That's my feelings as an individual and my choice to take those actions.
As a society, it serves no purpose and the errors in the system make it even more dangerous.
seanchai

[Legend]

So is murder ok or right...legally or illegally?

I think all of us would agree murder is wrong..period.

You murder my friend or family - if I get the chance I'm going to want to kill you. That's my feelings as an individual and my choice to take those actions.
As a society, it serves no purpose and the errors in the system make it even more dangerous.
seanchai

Then why in the do you oppose the death penalty,talk about an eye for a eye, you cant have it fucking both ways.

[Felicia Katt]

Seanchai name one country where you can kill four people and get life in prison?


Legend, you may be well meaning, but you should be well read. Most democratic countries today have abolished the death penalty, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, almost all of Europe, and much of Latin America. Belarus is the only country in Europe that practices the death penalty as a legal form of punishment. Membership in the European Union or the Council of Europe require at least a moratorium. As a result, Russia, Latvia and Turkey all have stopped executions. In all, 89 countries have abolished the death penalty altogether, another 28 countries have not executed anyone in the last ten years, and 9 officially maintain the death penalty only for "exceptional crimes" (e.g., war crimes).
As of 2005, the constitutions of 42 countries prohibit capital punishment.
Countries that retain it include Japan, the United States, and a number of countries in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and the Caribbean. Altogether, 74 countries still use the death penalty. The top 12 of this Coalition of the Enlightened includes China, Vietman, Yemen, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Kuwait, Bangladesh and Singapore. The US is 9th in per capita executions. Kuwait is number 1, China is number 2 per capita, but number 1 by a large margin in overall executions. Japan executes one or two prisoners each year only

Only six countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, the US the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, and Iran.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which among other things forbids capital punishment for juveniles, has been signed and ratified by all countries except the USA and Somalia


The homicide rate in the US is 5 to 7 times higher than in countries in Europe without the death penalty.

We are supposed to be a leader of the Western World, but we are bringing up the rear on this issue. arm in arm with Iran, and China

FK

[MacShreach]

Seanchai name one country where you can kill four people and get life in prison?


Legend, you may be well meaning, but you should be well read. Most democratic countries today have abolished the death penalty, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, almost all of Europe, and much of Latin America. Belarus is the only country in Europe that practices the death penalty as a legal form of punishment. Membership in the European Union or the Council of Europe require at least a moratorium. As a result, Russia, Latvia and Turkey all have stopped executions. In all, 89 countries have abolished the death penalty altogether, another 28 countries have not executed anyone in the last ten years, and 9 officially maintain the death penalty only for "exceptional crimes" (e.g., war crimes).
As of 2005, the constitutions of 42 countries prohibit capital punishment.
Countries that retain it include Japan, the United States, and a number of countries in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and the Caribbean. Altogether, 74 countries still use the death penalty. The top 12 of this Coalition of the Enlightened includes China, Vietman, Yemen, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Kuwait, Bangladesh and Singapore. The US is 9th in per capita executions. Kuwait is number 1, China is number 2 per capita, but number 1 by a large margin in overall executions. Japan executes one or two prisoners each year only

Only six countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, the US the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, and Iran.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which among other things forbids capital punishment for juveniles, has been signed and ratified by all countries except the USA and Somalia


The homicide rate in the US is 5 to 7 times higher than in countries in Europe without the death penalty.

We are supposed to be a leader of the Western World, but we are bringing up the rear on this issue. arm in arm with Iran, and China

FK


Cosign. Whatever the reasons for the elevated homicide rate in the US, simplistic populist knee-jerk reactions like "kill them" or for that matter "ban guns" don't and won't work. The fact that the homicide rate in the US remains so high is proof enough of the first, the fact that other countries have constitutionally guaranteed rights possess to firearms but don't have the high death rate the second.

Whatever the reason for the high homicide rate in the US is, it is far more complex and involves social issues that unfortunately it would appear most US citizens don't want to consider.

FWIW IMO any country that habitually indulges in judicial murder is not in a position to be lecturing the rest of the world on morality.

Gotta get back to work, this stuff can take too long. :D

[Legend]

Seanchai name one country where you can kill four people and get life in prison?


Legend, you may be well meaning, but you should be well read. Most democratic countries today have abolished the death penalty, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, almost all of Europe, and much of Latin America. Belarus is the only country in Europe that practices the death penalty as a legal form of punishment. Membership in the European Union or the Council of Europe require at least a moratorium. As a result, Russia, Latvia and Turkey all have stopped executions. In all, 89 countries have abolished the death penalty altogether, another 28 countries have not executed anyone in the last ten years, and 9 officially maintain the death penalty only for "exceptional crimes" (e.g., war crimes).
As of 2005, the constitutions of 42 countries prohibit capital punishment.
Countries that retain it include Japan, the United States, and a number of countries in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and the Caribbean. Altogether, 74 countries still use the death penalty. The top 12 of this Coalition of the Enlightened includes China, Vietman, Yemen, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Kuwait, Bangladesh and Singapore. The US is 9th in per capita executions. Kuwait is number 1, China is number 2 per capita, but number 1 by a large margin in overall executions. Japan executes one or two prisoners each year only

Only six countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, the US the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, and Iran.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which among other things forbids capital punishment for juveniles, has been signed and ratified by all countries except the USA and Somalia


The homicide rate in the US is 5 to 7 times higher than in countries in Europe without the death penalty.

We are supposed to be a leader of the Western World, but we are bringing up the rear on this issue. arm in arm with Iran, and China

FK

Thanks for the info didn't know all that, i just don't know how our homicide rate can be higher then some without it,doesn't make much sense.

Ok explain to me where is the justice then(i want to hear your personal opinion) If there is any, if someone commits multiple sins. Just tell me How would they pay for that?

[brickcitybrother]

Are we talking about murder or are we talking about killing?

Murder is always wrong = taking a life without justification.

But unless all of you who view killing as wrong are going to say that they would rather be killed by a crazed serial killer than kill in self-defense or have someone kill to protect their lives, then you are the worst of hypocrites.

Killing may be wrong - it may not be. When the police recently shot and killed a man threatening to kill an infant with a gun, are you saying that that was murder? That the correct course of action was to allow the man to kill the infant and then attempt to subdue him with blankets? Pillows? Tear Gas? While he just may then go on to pull the trigger again and kill a police officer? A innocent by-stander?

Murder is always wrong - you cannot take a life without justification. The question is what constitutes justification? I think that that is where the debate should be...

Thanks

[partlycloudy]

Hey don't miss out on what you're passing,
you're the hootah of the funky buddah,
eluder of your fucked up style's I get wicked
so come on as Cypress starts to kick it,
cause we're like outlaws sridding while suckers are bidding,
jump behind the bush when you see me driving by'
hanging out the window, with my magnum taking out some negros
acting kind of loco I'm just another local
kid from the street getting paid for my vocals.
Here is something you can't understand,
How I could just kill a man

I'm ignoring all the dumb shit yo
cause nothing is coming from it
I'm not gonna waste no time fucking around my gat straight humming
it's humming coming at ya! sorry that I had to gat ya!
time for some action just a fraction of friction
I got the clearance to run some interference
in to your sattle light shining a battle light
Sen got the gat and I know he'll gat you right
here's an example just a little sample:
how could I just kill a man
one time tried to come in my home take my chrome
I said yo it's on. take cover or you're assed out
how do you like my chrome then I watched the rookie pass out
didn't have to blast out but I did any way, that young punk had to pay
so I just killed a man, here is something you can't understand
how I could just kill a man

It's gonna be a long time before I finish
one of the many missu-ions that I had to establish
to lite my spliff ignite you with insite so if you ain't down
bullshit. say some punk tried to get you for your auto
would call one time and play the rolemmodel?
No! I think you'll play like a thug
next you here the shot of a magnum slug, humming coming at ya!
sorry that I had to gat ya. How do you know where I'm at
when you haven't been where I've been, understand where I'm coming from. while you're up on the hill in your big home
I'm out here risking my dome, just for a bucket or a faster ducket,
just to stay alive yo I got to say fuck it.
here is something you can't understand, how I could just kill a man

[BlackAdder]

There is quite a difference between killing and a planned execution, I dont believe thats what were arguing...If someones on a rampage Im all for putting them down like the rabid dog there acting like, but a long drawn out planned killing with an imperfect system of justice.....thats bullshit.

Legend....man are you naive.......Your far to hung up on whats black and white...I have a degree in Criminal Justice from Temple from when i was younger and even more stupid and if ive learned nothing else from it, "The Law", is very gray.....Those with money or power can circumvent it almost any time they choose. The corruption begins the day you start working in the system. I honestly have a hard time believing your black and yet you talk about justice within our legal system.....Are you really that ignorant or is it that you dont read anything other then message boards???

[GroobySteven]

Legend you still failed to answer the one simple question I posed you.
seanchai

[bigd321]

Legend you still failed to answer the one simple question I posed you.
seanchai

I think race is an issue that must be discussed in death penalty cases. It shouldn't be swept under a rug. A none threat like Tookie was executed in liberal California. Yet, Henry LEe Lucas, one of the most savge, sick murderers of all time had his death sentence commuted to Life in prison in Conservative Texas by a conservative gov. The gov. then is now the sitting President of the USa, George W. Bush. Anyway it's funny how a sociopath like Lucas (he died in prison of a heart attack later) had his death penalty commuted but a guy who really poses lil' threat now like Williams was executed.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Yeah, there is no doubt that sometimes the death penalty has been used when it shouldn't. People have been railroaded.

However, as they say, there are never any "guilty" people on death row if you ask the inmates or the lawyers.

For me, I'd just be happy if we started with the people that there was NO DOUBT about their guilt... and there are plenty of those. People with 20 bodies buried under their house. People caught on film or red handed. Poly Klaus's killer. Randy Kraft (who killed a bunch of young men and was pulled over in his car with a dead Marine handcuffed in his front seat.) Or John Falmalaro who was caught with a girl's body that he kidnapped and killed and kept in his freezer for over 5 years.

Anybody have a problem with offing those guys? And just to prove it's not a racist thing, those guys are all white.

I don't care if it's a deterant or not. I don't care if it's cheaper to send someone to Harvard than it is to execute them. I just don't think monsters like that should ever walk this earth, even if they are only walking in a 5x5 prison cell.

[TrueBeauty TS]

There are a lot of contradictions about Williams. First off, how can he himself say he is reformed if he was truly innocent? If he was innocent, he'd have nothing to be reformed about. Doesn't make sense. Sounds like his defence team didn't know which way to play it.

Also, even if you don't believe the witness accounts by his "buddies" there IS balistic evidence linking Williams' gun to the crimes.

If Williams was really reformed, why did he not help give the cops information on gangs? Beacuse he "didn't want to be a snitch". So he was comfortable with letting the violence and killings of gang members (many of them African-Americans, so I don't know why he's considered a hero to that community) and innocent victims continue. What a caring, kind, wonderful man.


Williams had the power to give his victims a "second chance". He had the power to grant them a "stay of execution". He decided to execute them, in cold blood. They were defenceless. A few of his victims were 70 or 80 years old. One victim was shot in the back execution style. That sounds like a coward to me.


Did I have a party last night? No. Was I dancing in glee? No. But I did think about his victims a lot. Something he and his supporters never did.

[BlackAdder]

"That sounds like a coward to me. "

Does he sounds like a coward to you when all he needed to do to save himself from death was call himself guilty and apologize to the relatives???

NO, he went to his DEATH saying he was innocent.....and if you believe yourself to be innocent then theres nothing to be remorseful for.....thats some fucked up shit right there, hed rather die then admit guilt....

[brickcitybrother]

"That sounds like a coward to me. "

Does he sounds like a coward to you when all he needed to do to save himself from death was call himself guilty and apologize to the relatives???

NO, he went to his DEATH saying he was innocent.....and if you believe yourself to be innocent then theres nothing to be remorseful for.....thats some fucked up shit right there, hed rather die then admit guilt....

Was that all he needed to do? Couldn't he have helped the police stop other crimes and/or solve other crimes? I think that would've gone a long way to show remorse. But as stated above, if you've done nothing, then there is nothing from which you need to be redeemed. Why say you're redeemed at all? As far as making a 'death bed' confession - so to speak - why do it if it will bring you nothing in return? To me that seemed to be his thought process. He did nothing, unless it brought something to him. Those things that cost nothing he seemed hell bent on not doing; An apology (to ANY of his victims - not just the one's who was convicted of killing) or providing cooperation to law enforcement (Why not reveal the crip 'code' used by the Crips when the communicate or the involvement of others in crimes.

I think in one weeks' time, Mr. Williams will be forgotten by us all. Too bad his victims were already forgotten by the press/media, the politicians, just about everyone - except there families.

[The American Nightmare]

And you still haven't shown that executing a criminal serves a purpose. Making yourself feel better does not pass as "valid" for me.

And I don't think you or the many others who seem to share your disposition have proven to the contrary. Of course the common retort to those in favor of the death penalty seems to be that his life in payment of the lives he took solves nothing...yet what would his life imprisonment solve? Even if it serves nothing, what are you left with? Ending a life for no purpose, or letting a person live for no purpose. Do you think it's ok to kill people for no reason? (And if you think this is a false dilemma, feel free to challenge me on it)


Murder is always wrong - you cannot take a life without justification. The question is what constitutes justification? I think that that is where the debate should be... I agree. However, I have asked several times - where is the justification of ending a convicted man's life?
I have not yet been given a response.


However, as they say, there are never any "guilty" people on death row if you ask the inmates or the lawyers. Are you even aware that every once and a while, innocent people are executed?


For me, I'd just be happy if we started with the people that there was NO DOUBT about their guilt... It's a moot point. A man cannot be convicted if there is doubt.

-------------------------

I see a lot of people asking about justice. It's a valid question with an answer that nobody likes to admit.

Justice is fairness. When someone is murdered, there is no way to make it right. Neither imprisoning the murderer for life nor executing them will bring the victim back. It's sad, but true; murder is a zero-sum game, and there is no justice to be found. Sometimes, you just lose.

I get the feeling that many people talk about justice, yet think about revenge: To inflict punishment in return for (injury or insult)
They are two very different things.

-------------------------


that's the purpose. throw the switch, plunge the syringe, whatthefuckever... homie's dead I pointed out that many are in favor of the death penalty to make themselves feel better at the expense of another person's life. You have proved my point. Thanks.

It's easy for us to forget the significance of ending a convicted man's life. Most of the time, we just say to ourselves "Well, he killed somebody, so he deserves to die. Fuck how he feels about it." We get so caught up in the criminal, that we forget about the person. Every person on death row is a human being. A human being with friends, family, and people who care about them just like you and me. Why should they have to go through the pain of losing a loved one?

These are lives we are talking about. Don't ever forget that.

[tubgirl]

that's the purpose. throw the switch, plunge the syringe, whatthefuckever... homie's dead I pointed out that many are in favor of the death penalty to make themselves feel better at the expense of another person's life. You have proved my point. Thanks.

It's easy for us to forget the significance of ending a convicted man's life. Most of the time, we just say to ourselves "Well, he killed somebody, so he deserves to die. Fuck how he feels about it." We get so caught up in the criminal, that we forget about the person. Every person on death row is a human being. A human being with friends, family, and people who care about them just like you and me. Why should they have to go through the pain of losing a loved one?

These are lives we are talking about. Don't ever forget that.

see, the one thing you're overlooking is the death. no, not the death of tookie. how about the death of the innocent people he slaughtered? did you know that the one man he killed would be 52 today? what's to say that that man would not have found a cure for cancer, or aids?

the fact that "tookie" bragged about hearing the man's last rasping breaths AFTER HE SHOT HIM IN THE BACK WITH A SHOTGUN FOR $120.

now, let's talk about lives....

[The American Nightmare]

see, the one thing you're overlooking is the death. no, not the death of tookie. how about the death of the innocent people he slaughtered? did you know that the one man he killed would be 52 today? what's to say that that man would not have found a cure for cancer, or aids?

the fact that "tookie" bragged about hearing the man's last rasping breaths AFTER HE SHOT HIM IN THE BACK WITH A SHOTGUN FOR $120.

now, let's talk about lives....I'm fully aware of what he did.

Killing Williams will not bring any of the victims back.

I continually end up with the conclusion that execution is a means to an end, but nobody knows what that goal is. Somebody give me a good reason why we execute criminals.

------------------------

We've all had to deal with the death of a loved one, and we all know how painful it is to go through. This is the same pain that the family of an executed man has to deal with. Someone they love dies.

Tubgirl, how much does this mean to you? Is it very important? Is it only a minor factor? Do you find the feelings of these people to be completely meaningless?

[TrueBeauty TS]

However, as they say, there are never any "guilty" people on death row if you ask the inmates or the lawyers. Are you even aware that every once and a while, innocent people are executed?

Of course. Are you even aware that some people that get executed are guilty?



For me, I'd just be happy if we started with the people that there was NO DOUBT about their guilt... It's a moot point. A man cannot be convicted if there is doubt.

Uh.... not exactly. You've never heard of a juror say that they went along with the rest because they felt pressure from the others? Even though they had doubt? People DO sometimes get convicted even when there is doubt, regardless of what the law says.

[The American Nightmare]

Are you even aware that some people that get executed are guilty? You implied that anyone on death row saying they aren't guilty must be lying.


You've never heard of a juror say that they went along with the rest because they felt pressure from the others? Even though they had doubt? People DO sometimes get convicted even when there is doubt, regardless of what the law says. This is true, but still irrelevant because there is no argument there. Yes, sometimes there is jury tampering, but I'm sure that everyone can agree that one who is convicted with doubt should face no punishment whatsoever, right? Can you find me anyone who says "Yeah, sure he was wrongfully convicted, but let's execute him anyways!"?

So to say "I'd just be happy if we [executed] the people that there was NO DOUBT about their guilt...", is a moot point.

[TrueBeauty TS]

"That sounds like a coward to me. "

Does he sounds like a coward to you when all he needed to do to save himself from death was call himself guilty and apologize to the relatives???

NO, he went to his DEATH saying he was innocent.....and if you believe yourself to be innocent then theres nothing to be remorseful for.....thats some fucked up shit right there, hed rather die then admit guilt....


Yes, he still sounds like a coward. If he was innocent, why did he say he was reformed?

There was no guarantee that he'd be saved from death if he admited his guilt. It was a tactic that he and his defence team played, and they lost.

I believe from that point on, he wanted to play the martyr.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Are you even aware that some people that get executed are guilty? You implied that anyone on death row saying they aren't guilty must be lying.

Not at all.



You've never heard of a juror say that they went along with the rest because they felt pressure from the others? Even though they had doubt? People DO sometimes get convicted even when there is doubt, regardless of what the law says. This is true, but still irrelevant because there is no argument there. Yes, sometimes there is jury tampering, but I'm sure that everyone can agree that one who is convicted with doubt should face no punishment whatsoever, right? Can you find me anyone who says "Yeah, sure he was wrongfully convicted, but let's execute him anyways!"?

So to say "I'd just be happy if we [executed] the people that there was NO DOUBT about their guilt...", is a moot point.

OK, I have no idea what you are trying to say, so I'll state how I feel.

Example: If you are pulled over and caught red handed with a tortured, handcuffed dead guy in the passenger seat of your car while you are driving it, and there is DNA and forensic evidence linking you to 20-30 other murders, then I think you should be executed. There is no doubt that you did it.

If someone is convicted of murder and then later DNA evidence doesn't match or witnesses retract their statements, then I think it's OK to hold off executing that person until we are sure one way or the other. Because there is doubt.

[Felicia Katt]

Ok explain to me where is the justice then(i want to hear your personal opinion) If there is any, if someone commits multiple sins. Just tell me How would they pay for that?

thats an easy question and one as a Christian, you should already have answered.

"Judgment is mine, saith the Lord"

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:1-5:

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matthew 5:43-4).

I'm not Mormon, but these passages from their testament seem pretty universal to me

“Behold what the scripture says man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay” (Mormon 8:20).

“Leave judgment alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay” (D&C 82:23).

Ultimately God will decide if someone pays for their sins. All we should do is put them on layaway until then.

FK

[scipio]

Btw, ever notice that the countries w/ stronger gun laws have lower murder rates?

Not true. Look at Switzerland. Lower murder rate than the USA. Every single able-bodied man in the country has a semi-automatic assault rifle IN THEIR HOME.

It's the culture, not the gun laws. Frankly tightening up on gun laws as a result of certain tragedies is just a knee-jerk reaction which doesn't actually address the problem. Yet people are "sold" the idea that if they just give away a little more of their freedom they will be safer.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt.

[The American Nightmare]

If someone is convicted of murder and then later DNA evidence doesn't match or witnesses retract their statements, then I think it's OK to hold off executing that person until we are sure one way or the other. Because there is doubt. Right. I'm not disagreeing with you there. My point is that nobody is going to disagree with you in this respect.

An argument, by definition, requires a disagreement. So why are we arguing?

Yes, I am nitpicking.

Sorry if I didn't state myself clearly at the start.

Be cool, honeybunny.

[Felicia Katt]

that's the purpose. throw the switch, plunge the syringe, whatthefuckever... homie's dead

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become one
Friedrich Nietzche

Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Friedrich Nietzsche

Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves
Confusius

Never does the human soul appear so strong as when is foregoes revenge and dares to forgive an injury.
Confucius

These quotes from philosophers separated greatly by time and distance and culture show us we have wisdom and we have anger. One can control the other. The other never should.

FK

[scipio]

Look right over the Canadian border. Look at England. More often than not, what I've said is true.

Don't know about Canada. But the incredibly strict gun laws in UK, ie. no handguns, are very recent, since the Dunblane shooting in the 1990s, and I think you'll find that the murder rate in UK was already much lower than the USA's.

You assume there is a relationship but I think you'll find with the vast majority of cases it just doesn't relate.

I would be interested if you could cite one example of a country* that had a higher murder rate than the USA, and then introduced extremely restrictive gun laws, and as a result had its murder rate drop below the USA's.

*Doesn't apply to countries with active armed uprsising or civil wars - different scenario.

[Felicia Katt]

Not true. Look at Switzerland. Lower murder rate than the USA. Every single able-bodied man in the country has a semi-automatic assault rifle IN THEIR HOME.

Right and they have them as part of well regulated militia. Recognize those words? They are the first ones in the second amendment, the ones everyone here overlooks. A well regulated militia is what the right to bear arms in this country is supposed to be about.

Most Swiss able-bodied civilian men of military age keep weapons at home in case of a national emergency. These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they must be kept locked up. Their issue of 72 rounds of ammunition must be sealed, and it is strictly accounted for. This complicates their use for criminal purposes, in that they are difficult to conceal, and their use will be eventually discovered by the authorities.

Swiss states issue licenses for handgun purchases on a "must issue" basis. Most, but not all, require handgun registration. Any ammunition bought on the private market is also registered. Ammunition can be bought unregistered at government subsidized shooting ranges, but, by law, one must use all the ammunition at the range.

Despite these regulations, Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. A review of the statistics:

Percent of households with a handgun, 1991 (1)

United States 29%
Switzerland 14


Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42


The Swiss don't have mac 10s and saturday night specials and cop killer ammunition flowing in the streets the way we do here but their guns still kill people, just 1/3rd as often as they do here


FK

[Quinn]

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become one
Friedrich Nietzche

One of my favorite quotes by one of my favorite philosophers.

-Quinn

[scipio]

Not true. Look at Switzerland. Lower murder rate than the USA. Every single able-bodied man in the country has a semi-automatic assault rifle IN THEIR HOME.

Right and they have them as part of well regulated militia. Recognize those words? They are the first ones in the second amendment, the ones everyone here overlooks. A well regulated militia is what the right to bear arms in this country is supposed to be about.

Most Swiss able-bodied civilian men of military age keep weapons at home in case of a national emergency. These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they must be kept locked up. Their issue of 72 rounds of ammunition must be sealed, and it is strictly accounted for. This complicates their use for criminal purposes, in that they are difficult to conceal, and their use will be eventually discovered by the authorities.

Swiss states issue licenses for handgun purchases on a "must issue" basis. Most, but not all, require handgun registration. Any ammunition bought on the private market is also registered. Ammunition can be bought unregistered at government subsidized shooting ranges, but, by law, one must use all the ammunition at the range.

Despite these regulations, Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. A review of the statistics:

Percent of households with a handgun, 1991 (1)

United States 29%
Switzerland 14


Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42


The Swiss don't have mac 10s and saturday night specials and cop killer ammunition flowing in the streets the way we do here but their guns still kill people, just 1/3rd as often as they do here


FK

I am actually impressed that you went and researched this data. And if you already knew it, I'm even more impressed. You're making the internet unsafe for people to make broad, sweeping, generalized bullshit statements.

Having said that, however, you information is both out of date and a very narrow sampling, and only shows that because Switzerland (in 1992) had a higher rate of handgun ownership, it also had a higher rate of handgun murders. My statement was not limited to handguns.

There's some good, more recent information about the statistics, which I feel support my view. Here is a sample:

"The Swiss Federal Police Office reports that, in 1997, there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country. Some 91 of these 189 murders and attempts involved firearms (the statistics do not distinguish firearm use in consummated murders from attempts). With its population of seven million (which includes 1.2 million foreigners), Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. There were 2,498 robberies (and attempted robberies), of which 546 involved firearms, giving a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000. Almost half of these criminal acts were committed by non-resident foreigners, which is why one hears reference in casual talk to "criminal tourists."

Sometimes, the data sounds too good to be true. In 1993, not a single armed robbery was reported in Geneva.

In a word, Switzerland, which is awash in guns, has substantially lower murder and robbery rates than England, where most guns are banned."

Link to the full article: http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html

[The American Nightmare]

Whatever the case, it's pretty pointless to make these kinds of comparisons. Crime is a complex issue, and you aren't going to be able to accurately relate it to any single aspect, be it gun ownership or capital punishment.

[Felicia Katt]

[In a word, Switzerland, which is awash in guns, has substantially lower murder and robbery rates than England, where most guns are banned."


you won't be too suprised if I checked your reference? LOL

According to the UN International Study on Firearm Regulation, in 1994 the homicide rate in England (including Wales) was 1.4. 9 per cent involved guns. Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. Estimates are about 50 per cent of these involved guns. In the United States, the homicide rate was almost 9.0 (70% involving firearms) per 100,000.

The article you referenced wrongly conflates murder and robbery rates.

It also concludes as follows:

The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, generally do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Switzerland fits this mold. But the United States does not. As H. Rap Brown declared in the 1960s, "Violence is as American as apple pie."

Its time to take unrestricted guns out of the recipe for that American pie

FK

[BlackAdder]

Itll never work Felicia...theres too many guns here already and too much of a market for them....All tightening the gun control laws will do is take them out of the hands of citizens and put them in the hands of people who dont care to obey the laws anyway....and the second group is the police...Frankly, i dont want to live in a country where only the police/paramilitary and scofflaws have firepower thank you. Heavens forfend, but if i ever have a need to pull a trigger at someone well then....Id be really put out if i didnt have my irons on me. In fact theres been two instances in 11 years where just the sight of my gun in hand has backed off people who im sure would have fucked me up at any other time, and THAT SHIT IS PRICELESS.

[gaiseric]

I have to agree with some of Blackadder's points here. It's true that we have strict gun laws in the UK. Following the Dunblane shootings, the government of the day came up with a typical knee-jerk reaction and banned all hand guns. What was the result? All the innocent people who do target shooting as a hobby had to give up their guns. The British Olympic pistol shooting team have to train abroad cos it's now illegal in their own country. The ban did not make an iota of difference to the criminal fraternity as they get their weapons through illegal sources anyway.
I may be wrong but I think I read recently that the level of gun crime has not reduced that much since the ban.
My point is that the strictest gun controls will never stop a criminal obtaining a weapon if he really wants one. It just affects the lawful gun clubs and sports marksmen who operate within the law.

[scipio]

Itll never work Felicia...theres too many guns here already and too much of a market for them....All tightening the gun control laws will do is take them out of the hands of citizens and put them in the hands of people who dont care to obey the laws anyway....and the second group is the police...Frankly, i dont want to live in a country where only the police/paramilitary and scofflaws have firepower thank you. Heavens forfend, but if i ever have a need to pull a trigger at someone well then....Id be really put out if i didnt have my irons on me. In fact theres been two instances in 11 years where just the sight of my gun in hand has backed off people who im sure would have fucked me up at any other time, and THAT SHIT IS PRICELESS.

Amen. If people aren't to be allowed guns, the police shouldn't be either.

[tubgirl]

Itll never work Felicia...theres too many guns here already and too much of a market for them....All tightening the gun control laws will do is take them out of the hands of citizens and put them in the hands of people who dont care to obey the laws anyway....and the second group is the police...Frankly, i dont want to live in a country where only the police/paramilitary and scofflaws have firepower thank you. Heavens forfend, but if i ever have a need to pull a trigger at someone well then....Id be really put out if i didnt have my irons on me. In fact theres been two instances in 11 years where just the sight of my gun in hand has backed off people who im sure would have fucked me up at any other time, and THAT SHIT IS PRICELESS.

Amen. If people aren't to be allowed guns, the police shouldn't be either.

ditto. nobody's getting mine...

[Quinn]

Speaking for myself, I am far more willing to trust my continued wellbeing to my own armed person than I am to humanity’s good will or the discretion of the state. Unfortunately, any study of human history overwhelmingly reaffimrs this position.

-Quinn