Why is America letting "them" take away Christmas? [Archive] - HungAngels

Dkg

12-02-2005, 03:55 AM

This nation was founded on certain principles and beliefs and now just b/c a group of outsiders with different religious beliefs migrate into the country we can't enjoy our own customs anymore??

No more "Merry Christmas". It's all "Happy Hoildays" now, as so not to offend other groups. That's just the tip of the iceberg though.

Now they're trying to take Christmas out of school and even in some dept stores. What the hell is going on in this country?? I highly doubt Japan or China ( or ANY other country) would ever let any outside groups come into their country and take away their longtime beliefs and traditions.....I guess, as they say, Only in America....

Copenhagen

12-02-2005, 04:06 AM

Yeah, PC to a new extreme (political correctness). Holiday trees are stupid. They are Christmas trees!

seaman

12-02-2005, 04:30 AM

You guys don't get it, do you?

Gee, where do I start? Let's see.

1. Nice analogy - comparing the disgustingly intolerant China and the conservative, homogenous and socially repressed Japan as role models.

2. If shopping mall and school decorations are essential parts of your religion, maybe its time for you to find one with something a little more....spiritual to inspire you (although with that attitude, I'm frightened to think what it'd be).

3. Don't assume minority religions are fans of the PC nonsense. I'm not. I find the gratuitous menorah in my office lobby (with gifts at the base - a fire hazard!!!) just as pointless as you find the "happy holidays". Holiday trees ARE stupid. Lets get rid of em.

4. Outside groups??? When did you family come here? Are you a child of the Mayflower? I'm Jewish and my family has 3 generations here. Leaving the "give me your tired, hungry..." aside, who said its your country?

5. Who said you can't enjoy your customs. Nobody's stopping you from getting a Chirstmas tree. What's more "traditional American" than your shopping mall doing whatever they want to get more customers?

6. Am I the only one who sees the irony of someone bitching about minorities infiltrating traditional values on a board that 99.9999% of americans believe is horribly perverse?

7. For the record, I was born half jewish, half catholic, raised jewish, and grown as an open-minded agnostic who sorta loves the buddhist philosophy but can't calm myself enought to fully embrace it. These posts don't help. Ommmmm.

Jeez, all that and I didn't have to fall back on something as simple as the Constitution.

Copenhagen

12-02-2005, 04:40 AM

Well i think you blew my post out of proportion. Even thou you are jewish, if i didnt know that, i dont see a problem in telling you "merry christmas." What is Christmas, i dont think ebay, i think its Jesus's birthday.

I get where you ran with your post after rereading the first one. Yes, there is a huge difference between those nations and ours. I read the original post as being holiday trees, and the aclu worried about some mayor in some po dunk town with 500 people putting a nativity scene on courthouse grounds.

yourdaddy

12-02-2005, 04:46 AM

yourdaddy

12-02-2005, 04:46 AM

seaman

12-02-2005, 04:49 AM

Well i think you blew my post out of proportion. Even thou you are jewish, if i didnt know that, i dont see a problem in telling you "merry christmas." What is Christmas, i dont think ebay, i think its Jesus's birthday.

I have no problem with you wishing anyone merry christmas. That is very different than blaming minorities for the dilution of the christian culture.

I get where you ran with your post after rereading the first one. Yes, there is a huge difference between those nations and ours. I read the original post as being holiday trees, and the aclu worried about some mayor in some po dunk town with 500 people putting a nativity scene on courthouse grounds.

I find those podunk town nativity scenes harmless as well, but, as we all know, its a slippery slope. I personally find the whole thing where businesses need a friggin symbol for every group ridiculous. But don't blame the minorities for that - blame the businesses and the people they pander to by putting anything there in the first place.

seaman

12-02-2005, 05:47 AM

Tell it like it is "Cope". A perfect example of this bullshit by liberals, is Las Crucez, New Mexico. Named about 400 years ago, some aclu loving asshole is objecting to living there. Let him try to change the name of some town in Syria, or Iran, or even Israel. I'd love to see him try to change the nbame of Sopchopee, Florida.

To use something as inane as changing the name of Las Crucez (sic - looks like you've already changed the name) is unfair and not representative of the position of most who advocate against separation of church and state. For every zealot wants to change 300 year old mexican names, there's one who wants my kids to be forced to pray to jesus in public school. Can we both agree these are ridiculous positions and have an intelligent debate?

The American Nightmare

12-02-2005, 06:43 AM

Copenhagen,

You're begging the question. Nobody is "taking away" Christmas.

The complaints you've listed are perfectly ordinary. People have a right to feel the way they do, and state those feelings publically. You, in turn, have the right to state your reaction. Welcome to America.

It is, however, erroneous for you to state that your Christmas celebrations are being ruined based on how others feel about the holiday. Nothing is stopping you from going through the same traditions you've gone through every year before, and it is dishonest for you to state otherwise.

Kramer

12-02-2005, 06:47 AM

Something I dont understand is why PC is still in effect? We've had a Republican Pres. for 5 years now, going on 8 yrs. We have a Republican majority in both Houses. Yet this PC bullshit remains, WHY???

Ecstatic

12-02-2005, 07:16 AM

This nation was founded on certain principles and beliefs and now just b/c a group of outsiders with different religious beliefs migrate into the country we can't enjoy our own customs anymore??
"Our own"? Who are you to decide what my beliefs are? I've got news for you: we're all outsiders who migrated to this country, starting with the ancestors of the Indians some 18,000 years ago (very recent in the timescale of the history of mankind, which runs about 4.5 million years and a quarter million years for homo sapiens). I have Penobscot blood on my mother's side, so that predates the Mayflower by a few millenia. On my father's side, our oldest arrivals came to these shores in 1655.

"This nation was found on certain principles and beliefs": whose? what principles? When Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence, he was just about as open-ended as a citizen of the Age of Enlightenment could be: yes, he mentions a "Creator" but he avoids assigning any specific denomination to that Creator. The central religious principle that this country was founded on is that of religious freedom, the separation of Church and State (a bold concept, given our European ancestry where nation-states are deeply intertwined with the predominant religion of the land).

"Our own customs"? Again, speak for yourself, not for me or anyone else. It's a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree? If you check your religious history, you'll find that the Christmas tree was adapted by Christians from the Pagans of Northern Europe, where it was associated with the likes of Odin. The cross is a Christian symbol (torn from the Romans in defiance), but the tree is Pagan.

For that matter, since scholars had no evidence of when Jesus was born (or even if he ever lived) in the 3rd century when Constantine declared Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire, they borrowed the birthdate of December 25 from the then-dominent religion of Mithraism: Mithra was born on December 25 (dating back to 1000 years BC), and because he was so widely worshipped throughout the Empire (there are temples to Mithra scattered throughout Europe, as far north as England), it was a politic move to appropriate that date for Jesus, thus making conversion much easier since the unwashed masses were already worshipping the birth of the godking on that day and simply substituted another name. (Incidentally, to go back even further, Mithra was born on December 25 because it marked the winter solstice, which has been a key date in the calendar since time immemorial; over the 1300 years between the appropriation of the solstice for Mithra and the conversion of Rome to Christianity, the calendar had slipped enough that the 21st had become the 25th.)

P.S. Glad to oblige, Hing. I was typing this when you posted!

Hugh Jarrod

12-02-2005, 08:53 AM

Thank you Hingshing for beating me to the punch on that one. Yes Dec 25th isn't really the birth of Christ. Kramer you're mistaken if you think republicans are any less PC than democrates, you seem to be stuck in the typical American arguement - black or white, on or off, this or that. I also find it funny when others on this thread have decided to use "liberal" as a deomnizing phrase, funny as hell if you ask me. Funny that you'd let your mind be so easily shaped and molded by talk radio. It's also great that we can drop some extreme case of some weirdo in New Mexico and then lump anyone who says happy holidays in with them.Look America was founded on ideals, and beliefs. Though you may wish to believe they were christian you are sadly mistaken my friend, the founding fathers were deists, regardless of what any televangelist says. Remeber these words as they are extremely important, too me and everyone else as well. "Congress shall make no law establishing religion or preventing the free practice there of" I take this to mean that regardless of your faith (or even if you're athiest) you make your peace with god on terms that work for you and god if you choose to do so. These terms are between you and god and nobody else, no individual, no governing body, no religeous middle man. They can not no matter how they may try TAKE AWAY CHRISTMAS from you, get? Got it, good. This is simply propaganda set forth by individuals who wish to make America a christian country, it is not. It's hysteria, and pure bullshit, a dillusion of persacution by extremists. Maybe christians are being persacuted maybe someday we'll have our 44th christian president, maybe someday christian churches will vastly outnumber other religions in this country, maybe I will someday see a young jewish, muslim, or buddhist man preaching and screaming from a street corner. Maybe someday I'll turn on the TV and see a muslim televangelists asking for your money. Just maybe, someday hooded white men will linch non-whites in the name of Buddha instead of Christ. I'm not saying all christians are bad, good or other wise, but an awful lot of evil has been committed in the name of Christ in this country (and the name of god and religion world wide through out history) so to all you christians who think THEY (whoever the hell that is) are trying to take away christmas I say you're dillusional. As well I say to you and others have a Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukka, Crazy Kwanza, Righteous Ramadan, and a Tip Top Tet! Oh and Happy Holidays.

chefmike

12-02-2005, 09:59 AM

Hugh Jarrod

12-02-2005, 10:17 AM

It has nothing to do with being PC(which most of us agree has been taken to extremes)...it's called separation of church and state, something which your average jackass, bible-banging, redneck GOP member would like to do away with...

Exactly, (not ageeing on GOP redneck etc.) but people want to make America a nation of a specific religion, and that's wrong. For those people I point to the constitution which says "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or preventing the free practice there of."

seaman

12-02-2005, 01:02 PM

ahh, the calvary.

hughie, what u doing here. i saw your post and felt like 2 guys from a small town seeing themselves in midtown manhattan in the middle of a typical NYC shit storm.

hwbs

12-02-2005, 01:45 PM

chefmike

12-02-2005, 02:40 PM

....waits for the inevitable thread on which TS has the best "pole" for festivus...

Dkg

12-02-2005, 05:57 PM

Hugh Jarrod

12-02-2005, 06:01 PM

ahh, the calvary.

hughie, what u doing here. i saw your post and felt like 2 guys from a small town seeing themselves in midtown manhattan in the middle of a typical NYC shit storm.

Always there to stand up for what I believe makes this country great my friend.

Ecstatic

12-02-2005, 06:22 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051202/bs_usatoday/someretailersgivethewordchristmasanod

I rest my case

At least SOME people get it.

I want the world to recognize that we are celebrating CHRISTMAS (and recognizing the birth of our savior) and Not The "Holidays".

and yes, It does mean THAT uch to me.
Well, I'm glad it means "THAT uch [sic]" to you. The NATION is not celebrating Christmas. 82% of the US is Christian, and yes, they should be (and are) able to celebrate their holidays. But 18% (52,000,000 people, nearly the population of the UK or France--that's a lot of people) are not Christian, and the government is fundamentally based on separation of church and state. The NATION does NOT recognize Christ as "our savior": that's an individual choice (and that individual choice is fundamental to Christianity itself: Free Will predates Freedom of Religious Affiliation). The NATION IS celebrating the "Holidays": 3 million Jews celebrate Chanukah; 1 million Muslims celebrate Ramadan; 1 million Buddhists celebrate Bodhi (Enlightenment) Day (Dec 8); 1 million atheists celebrate no religious festival (but probably enjoy some time off); etc. \

Please, feel free to celebrate your Christmas and call your dead tree a Christmas tree, but don't foist your preferences on the 52 million Americans who do not share your inclinations.

Dkg

12-02-2005, 06:25 PM

Hugh Jarrod

12-02-2005, 06:38 PM

Look guys, all Im saying is If you don't Celebrate Christmas then Too Bad! But why try to take it away from the people who do!?? The whole Holiday has become so commercial now it's sickening. I have been celebrating Christmas for the past 22 years, and now, just b/c other religions don't want to be left out (of an event that Isn't even there's) and retailers want EVERYONE'S money We have to change?

Basicaly IMO They are mad becuase they dont get to celebrate it, and have the attitude of "if i cant have it, no one else will". Its just a bunch of people trying to argue and create havoc over something that has nothing to do with them in the 1st place.

my .02

I still don't get your arguement. Nobody is trying to take away Christmas (save for the Grinch) and you can cellibrate it all you want. I'm not even christian and I celebrate it. Many people I know are the same, the celebrate it non religiously. I know plenty of people who are muslim and don't celebrate it however they let you and don't give a fuck what retailers write in their windows. The only ones who seem to care are talk radio hosts who want to make you feel threatened by "liberals" and secularists. Those evil fuckin' secularists who believe it or not say America isn't a christian nation (how dare they!). You've just bought into it that's all. I'm sure if you look hard enough there are some people like you describe, not a bunch though. By your tree, wait for Santa (by the way neither symbol has anything to do with the birth of your saviuor) and sing songs about the baby jesus. Because believe it or not what ever retailers tell you, it shouldn't affect your faith in the least bit.

Hugh Jarrod

12-02-2005, 08:24 PM

this country was founded by a bunch of racist, homophobic slave owning white guys who told us that all men are created equall, howse that for ur fuckin founding fathers....

True, ever read the original draft of the constitution. Only people who could vote were land owners. Which was very few people at the time. You forgot to call them pot smoking, genesidal indian killers, and greedy anti-merchantilist businessmen.

4DegreesWarmer

12-02-2005, 08:30 PM

tommyj6168

12-02-2005, 09:30 PM

It frustrates me that a debate like this is even happening. The current hysteria that out of control liberals are attacking Christmas is part of a coordinated effort by the conservative political machine to whip the nation into a frenzy.

Each day, the conservative hacks of Fox News and the army of conservative radio blowhards make the supposed "War on Christmas" a staple of conversation. THERE IS NO WAR ON CHRISTMAS.

Similarly, the nation was driven into supporting a ridiculous war in Iraq based upon hyped intelligence, playing on our fears of another 9/11. Of course everyone loves Christmas and doesn't want it to be watered down by elitist intellectual snobs. The conservative movement is playing upon this feeling in a cynical attempt to perpetuate their hold on political power.

As Michelle Goldbert points out, "What there is, rather, is a burgeoning myth of a war on Christmas, assembled out of old reactionary tropes, urban legends, exaggerated anecdotes and increasingly organized hostility to the American Civil Liberties Union." See
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/11/21/christmas/index_np.html

BeardedOne

12-02-2005, 10:05 PM

Please, feel free to celebrate your Christmas and call your dead tree a Christmas tree,

I'm a sideliner when it comes to religious arguments, because I don't have a problem with the faith as much as I do with the organized (Or disorganized, as it were) practicing of same, and since I'm a bit of an anarchist anyway it's a bit of morbid fun to watch the ongoing contest.

But Ecstatic's comment reminded me of the time a number of friends got together for a holiday dinner one year. As we were Christian, Jew, Neo-Pagan, Druid, Buddhist, Shinto, and a couple of Deity-du-jour individuals it was not focused on one particular celebration.

When the Druid said to our hosts that they were not aware that they'd be attending a "wake" we had to smile one of those "Oh, shit, we never thought of that" smiles as we realized they pointed to what they called the "gayly decorated corpse" (Christmas tree) in the living room.

*Sigh* I have a vague memory of actually having enjoyed this season...Sometime back in the seventies or something. :roll:

Ecstatic

12-03-2005, 01:36 AM

Good points, but one correction. Technically, Ramadan is the month of fasting...the actual holiday is Eid, which would be the day after Ramadan ends.
Point taken. I wasn't actually equating Ramadan with Christmas (there is no direct parallel), but rather simply naming a sacred time for the followers of Islam as an example. Given that the Islamic calendar (or Hijri calendar) is a purely lunar calendar, with 12 synodic months that are based on the motion of the moon, it is only 12 x 29.53=354.36 days, thus approximately 11 days shorter than the Gregorian calendar and constantly shifts relative to it. So no direct correspondence to the Gregorian calendar is possible.

4DegreesWarmer

12-03-2005, 01:44 AM

Also true in terms of of the lunar calender.

I just wanted to point out that the holiday was Eid(more specifically Eid ul-Fitr) since I noticed someone else mentioned Ramadan as well.

As for the topic at hand, it's a rather silly argument. The preponderance of this country is Christian...or at the very least identify with "Christian culture" more than any other, but there is also a great deal of non-Christians with significant cultural days around the same time frame, so it makes perfect sense that they'd be included in the holiday marketing.

If having such inclusions being made somehow threatens your oh so precious idea of Christmas, you may need to do some much needed self-evaluation.

The American Nightmare

12-03-2005, 02:38 AM

First of all, and most importantly:

im sorry, u guys are way too polite to these fuckin mosters...how anyone can have any tolerance for conservatives is beyond me...how can anyone feel comfortable voting along the lines of the KKK, david duke and other great americans??? And that's the difference between you, and decent human beings. I hope you soon come to realize that you possess the same level of prejudice as the KKK, which you claim to despise.

Most adults are able to debate important issues without resorting to childish namecalling. What's your excuse?

------------------------

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051202/bs_usatoday/someretailersgivethewordchristmasanod

I rest my case Far from it. What's your point here? You're developing a bad habit of talking, without saying anything.

Its just a bunch of people trying to argue and create havoc over something that has nothing to do with them in the 1st place. You're exactly correct. However, you might be mistaken on exactly whom it is that's creating the havoc. Read more >> here. << (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051122/COL02/511220301/1026/FEATURES)

I have extreme difficulty taking you seriously, for two specific reasons that you have brought up. Please explain a few things for me. I have two questions, and I'd appreciate hearing your specific answers:

The whole Holiday has become so commercial now it's sickening. 1. If you think Christmas is becoming too commercial, why are you complaining when retail stores reference Christmas less?

Why is America letting "them" take away Christmas?

But why try to take it away from the people who do!??

We have to change? 2. In what way is anyone stifling your celebrations, or forcing you to change?

If I do not get answers to these questions, I will be left with the conclusion that you have no point to make, and are simply rambling.

Dkg

12-03-2005, 03:08 AM

1. I'm complaining about the TV/Marketing side of it b/c as you know they have a HUGE influence on this country and to downplay Christmas as the true holiday is just another example of people trying to take all christian meaning out of the holy-day

2. When I say "we" have to change I mean the stores, the media, etc. Some people have actually claimed that they will get fired for saying the words Merry Christmas. I don't ever remember anything like that before. That's called change. That's wat upsets me.

maybe you guys just aren't really religious, and I'm not too surprised, since a lot of Americas have simply given up on Reilgion, no thanks to crap like this. I can't really expect any non religious people to understand where I and many other christians are coming from if you yourself have no type of beliefs to begin with.

This isn't about anyone trying to force christianity down anyone's throats, but why not let us celebrate what we once did so proudly and openly? You have another religion, don't believe in reiligon, ok, but don't try to suddenly keep us from openly expressing ours.

Felicia Katt

12-03-2005, 03:46 AM

DKG, maybe you should read the Constitution before you shred it. Everyone in this country is free to worship in whatever manner they like. Most businesses worship at the altar of commerce and if they are chosing to say happy holdiday, its for economic reasons, not sacriligeous ones. The Christmas you celebrate has virtually nothing whatsoever to do with the Christ you venerate. He'd probably view the whole scene as disdainfully as he did the moneychangers outside the temple.

When you can point to a single church that is forced to close, or to a single preacher who is silenced, then you can talk about someone taking away your Christmas. Not when a store responds to the forces of the market, or when the Government remembers or is reminded its not supposed to force any religion on anyone.

FK

The American Nightmare

12-03-2005, 04:04 AM

1. I'm complaining about the TV/Marketing side of it b/c as you know they have a HUGE influence on this country and to downplay Christmas as the true holiday is just another example of people trying to take all christian meaning out of the holy-day Get over yourself. There is no "true" holiday. You're entitled to your beliefs, but it would be foolish to expect everyone else to agree with you.

But I still don't see the relevance of this. Maybe it's just me, but I can't wrap my brain around the idea that someone would be seriously offended because a Sears catalogue doesn't mention "Christmas."

[2] Some people have actually claimed that they will get fired for saying the words Merry Christmas. And this is turning out to be a myth. I challenge you to find proof that anyone has been fired or disciplined, or warned of such consequences, due to saying the word "Christmas." And even if you did, I'm certain it would be an extremely isolated incident.

If (and that's a huge IF), people were getting fired left and right for such things, then I'd agree that there is a problem. As far as I can tell, we're nowhere near that.

maybe you guys just aren't really religious, and I'm not too surprised, since a lot of Americas have simply given up on Reilgion, no thanks to crap like this. Are you serious? Do you honestly think anyone has stopped going to church because Wal-Mart didn't have a Christmas section on its website?

...but don't try to suddenly keep us from openly expressing ours. I'll explain this to you in no unclear terms:

NOBODY IS DOING THIS.

Realgirls4me

12-03-2005, 05:24 AM

The reasons are at least twofold for Fox News and Conservative talk radio to try to whip this non-issue into an issue: It is to distract their zombie, non-critically thinking audience from the real news such as the quandary in Iraq that this fuck-up of a president hoodwinked the country into, and also their never ending quest to simply paint Liberals, Progressives, and Democrats as the bane of everything that is wrong with this country.

One has to be a moron -- A FUCKEN MORON -- to suscribe to anything the ratings/money driven new Joe McCarthy dividers of ths country (O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, etc) espouse. Agitation sells. I can't believe there are people out there who buy their slop and take it as gospel.

Copenhagen

12-03-2005, 06:46 AM

I think i get you, but your previous post was off because you were judgemental on other people's beliefs (hence you cant be christian and visit this message board). Text can come accross wrong or the meaning depends on the reader. Not being critical of you, but i didnt agree with what you said.

I think if we were sitting down and talking about this you would take the point of the Crusades and other wars were caused by religion. I wish i knew the counter argument to this. Its confusing, we dont hear enough about the good selfless people. We tend to hear about the guys who wear their religion on their sleeve. I dont think anyone here can debate someone like Mother Terresa or Ghandi was a good woman/man. Not sure i can vision a world without religion. Christians killed by Romans. Jews killed by Nazis. Man is flawed, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, they would find a way to kill each other w/o the religion theme. Wow this is a cheery discussion. lol

Ecstatic

12-03-2005, 07:03 AM

I dont think anyone here can debate someone like Mother Terresa or Ghandi was a good woman/man.
Actually, use the search--this very point regarding both of these stalwarts was debated here not long ago--maybe two weeks back?

Copenhagen

12-03-2005, 07:09 AM

I can only think of two things you are sugguesting.

One, man should think of pat robertson when wacking off.

Two, that a 1 pound swallow can carry a two pound coconut.

!!!!!!

Copenhagen

12-03-2005, 07:27 AM

oh, well you were trying to make a brief point, and if i read too much into it, dont worry about it. Easy going here. I am just disappointed in you that you did not get my monty python joke. j/k

My point on Mother Teresa or Ghandi..........someone can formulate an opinion that they arent good people, its a free country and their right to think whatever. On the same hand, i don't need to read that, because its crap (in my opinion). You had some other post in some other thread where i thought you gave a good thought/or interesting thought Ecstatic. Anyways, missed that you said that earlier so responded.

Arrianna, Christians don't believe Jesus had a girlfriend. Starting to think you are a forum troll. It is nice to see you didn't make an ill reference to bush in that thread. Other than name calling in your other ones, i believe thats the only post on the boards i have read where you didn't cite him. Its ironic that you bash alot of people for having blind hatred and extreme bias, but then turn around and do the same thing.

Dkg

12-04-2005, 01:23 PM

.,,,,,,maybe my post was a little harsh, i don't want to come off as sounding like a jerk, but i look at it this way, if someone wants to believ in god, i think thats fine, theres nothing wrong with that, i think if it gets you by, provides comfort for you then its a positive thing, my problem lies in organized religion, and how through the years political and church leaders twist the scripture to push thier own social and political views, which is why all through history there has been nothing but hatred and intolerance of others, and so much bloodshed.If more people had a personal relationship with whatever they choose to call "God" and not a mostly public one, that's fuction was to forgive them for their chronic fuck-ups and to achieve a trivial social status, I would cut them more slack. But the very title of this thread clearly indicates that DKG has put himself, and those like him, on one side of a fence and "us" on the other. It's that type of intolerance and the holier-than-thou horseshit which makes their "beliefs" and "faith" offensive, and ultimately dangerous, to the rest of "us".

I'm sorry if you felt that way but that's not what I was trying to do AT ALL. Although, if you aren't christian and don't believe in Jesus, etc then I can understand why this is such a non issue for you and oters who have bashed me. I've noticed that christians have been getting a bad rap lately (esp on the internet) and are being outright bashed from people who aren't religious. I get the feeling the general consensus is that ALL christians are Extremeist who try to jam their beliefs down your throats and that's NOT what all of us are like. I'll just have to remember not to bring up religion in a thread where most of the users aren't religious b/c otherwise it's a recipie for disaster, or at least a good flamming on the poster.

Dkg

12-04-2005, 01:29 PM

I think i get you, but your previous post was off because you were judgemental on other people's beliefs (hence you cant be christian and visit this message board). Text can come accross wrong or the meaning depends on the reader. Not being critical of you, but i didnt agree with what you said.

Sorry, i forgot to address this, it wasn't my intention to come off judgemental on someone who is Christian, so i apologize to you, whoever you are, who took offence. But i will say again, it's thier beliefs, i didn't make them up, and im not enforcing them, its thier book, so i wantd to clear this up that i wasn't being judgemental on him, but rather i was not "recognizing" him as a Christian, and gave my reasons why, and no,, i do not think your going to go to hell for it, DKG, i won't use that as a scare tactic to make you feel guilty for being here.

I'm a christian, but I'm not one of those uber orthodox (sp?) extremist. I believe that I can love anyone intimately and won't "go to hell for it". And btw, do ou realize how many gay christians there are?? Heck, just look at all of the pedophlilic "holy men" out there. And as for masturbation? You show me one christian who hasn't...you can't.

I think you're really confusing the today beliefs of the "modern christian" with those of the 1940's christian.

Hugh Jarrod

12-04-2005, 01:44 PM

I'm sorry if you felt that way but that's not what I was trying to do AT ALL. Although, if you aren't christian and don't believe in Jesus, etc then I can understand why this is such a non issue for you and oters who have bashed me. I've noticed that christians have been getting a bad rap lately (esp on the internet) and are being outright bashed from people who aren't religious. I get the feeling the general consensus is that ALL christians are Extremeist who try to jam their beliefs down your throats and that's NOT what all of us are like. I'll just have to remember not to bring up religion in a thread where most of the users aren't religious b/c otherwise it's a recipie for disaster, or at least a good flamming on the poster.

I'm not bashing you DKG I just think you've bought into a lie, set forth by those with a hidden agenda. It's a dillusion of persacution that many try to claim is happening to all christians everywhere. It's just not so, I have many christian friends almost all are great folks. They don't try to force their beliefs on me at all, and they know that no group or oganization is conspiring to take away Christmas. No just as I said I was sure you could find a nut case who does want to take away Christmas, and make him/her out to be the norm, I think it's wrong to lump all christians as intollerant. Nor did I really flame you on this thread at all, I just don't think they're trying........................ah hell I'll put it to you this way. You can feel safe and trust me when I say Christmas isn't going to go away. I'm a Daoist by the way, not in the organized way. I mean I don't go to a temple or holy middle man. It's just what I have faith in.

Ecstatic

12-04-2005, 05:42 PM

I'm sorry if you felt that way but that's not what I was trying to do AT ALL. Although, if you aren't christian and don't believe in Jesus, etc then I can understand why this is such a non issue for you and oters who have bashed me. I've noticed that christians have been getting a bad rap lately (esp on the internet) and are being outright bashed from people who aren't religious. I get the feeling the general consensus is that ALL christians are Extremeist who try to jam their beliefs down your throats and that's NOT what all of us are like. I'll just have to remember not to bring up religion in a thread where most of the users aren't religious b/c otherwise it's a recipie for disaster, or at least a good flamming on the poster.
Dkg, the problem stemmed from how you phrased your initial post:

This nation was founded on certain principles and beliefs and now just b/c a group of outsiders with different religious beliefs migrate into the country we can't enjoy our own customs anymore??
This immediately set up an us vs. them dichotomy and implied that the US was founded as a Christian nation on Christian values and beliefs. The dichotomy is false and the assumption of the US being a Christian nation is erroneous: 1 in 5 Americans are not Christian. Yes, that's a minority, but it's a very significant minority, numbering close to 55 million people. These people (with some exceptions, granted) are not trying to take away Christians' rights, but only to express their freedom to their own beliefs in this country.

Now if your initial comment had been more along the lines of how terrible it is that Christmas has become too commercialized or how the message (however defined) of Christmas is getting lost in the shuffle, I think you would have found more support for your position.

Incidentally, just as Hugh Jarrod is a Daoist with no organized religious connections, so am I a Buddhist (in principle, not in organized practice).

(An aside to Hugh: glad to see the Pinyin transliteration of Dao as opposed to the more common Wade-Giles Tao; the Daode Jing (Tao Te Ching) is probably my number one spiritual text, having read it dozens of times in at least a dozen translations. An amazing work, considering how compact it is.)

Edmund

12-04-2005, 06:06 PM

This nation was founded on certain principles and beliefs...

Oh was it? Let's ask some men who might have an idea on that...

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."--John Adams

"I find in orthodox Christianity not one redeeming value." --Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded project." --James Madison

"though it is now almost two thousand years since, as they tell us, Christ came upon earth, not a twentieth part of the people of the earth know anything of it, and among those who do, the wiser part do not believe it."--Thomas Paine again

Ecstatic

12-04-2005, 06:28 PM

right on edmund...and once again the great T J:

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." - Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810
This has, in greater or lesser measure, been the legacy of virtually every major spiritual/religious reformer: Jesus, Buddha, Laozi, Moses, Mahavira, the list goes on and on. The parallels between Christ and Buddha are singularly striking.

One nod to Judaism: they've always maintained a sense of the human about even their most highly respected teachers and prophets: none are equated to their God, and all are shown in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) and other sources as flawed as they were enlightened, warts and all.

GiaCallMe

12-04-2005, 07:09 PM

First. DKG your parallel to homosexuals in the Church and the child molester priest, is WAY off. THey do not molest because they are gay. Most same sex molesters are not gay. If you really want to blame someone for "taking away" or dilluting Xmas, blame Wal-Mart and Sears and Target and every other big retailler. they do not are about what the intention of the holiday they care about the $$$$. They were the ones to start with Happy Holiday because they did not want to affend potential customers. If someone says Happy Holidays to you , it is no big deal just like if you say Merry Xmas to them. People are way to self important nowadays. Lighten Up Francis.

Hugh Jarrod

12-04-2005, 07:12 PM

Lighten Up Francis.

...and another thing he don't like nobody touchin' his stuff, you touch his stuff he'll kill ya.

McRen

12-04-2005, 07:40 PM

Christmas is nothing but a corporate shopping holiday nowadays anyways, it has nothing to do with being Christian. I'm completely anti christian but I live in north america, and we all celebrate Christmas. I do find it offensive, but only because its so blatantly a marketing tool to get people to buy crap. However, its great for kids, and a good time for familys to spend time together so its not all bad.

McRen

12-04-2005, 09:02 PM

I forgot to say Bah Humbug

But i'll enjoy a great turkey dinner and a huge family gathering, and watch my rich little cousins get toys i could have never dreamed of lol

El_hefe

12-04-2005, 09:28 PM

Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah everyone !!!!

http://www.chrismahanukwanzakah.com/

(Now who did I offend?)

Hugh Jarrod

12-05-2005, 06:31 AM

Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah everyone !!!!

http://www.chrismahanukwanzakah.com/

(Now who did I offend?)

Me dammit that's nothing but a corprate invented holidy! LOL just kidding, it is but I could care less. The commercials make me laugh.

chefmike

12-07-2005, 01:42 AM

:roll:

chefmike

12-07-2005, 01:51 AM

:lol:

Dkg

12-07-2005, 01:53 AM

chefmike, I take it you aren't a religious man...?

Hugh Jarrod

12-07-2005, 01:56 AM

You know I think it's funny when people think Bush is going to revert us to a theocracy. Simply put most anything he's done has been trivial at best, he would jump in on the "they are taking it away" side of this arguement, but nothing more. When they held the last rally for pro-life people in front of the whitehouse he phoned in his "words of encouragement" from Texas? From Kenny Punkport (spelling)? no from 200 yards away. He is against gay marriage and when he talked of an amendment against it he knew damned well it wouldn't pass. He does these things to appease a certain group of voters and that's it.

Hugh Jarrod

12-07-2005, 01:58 AM

chefmike, I take it you aren't a religious man...?

Nothing wrong with that, in America he has that choice.

chefmike

12-07-2005, 01:58 AM

religion should be kept between a human being and their beliefs...organized religion has been the scourge of the universe....power corrupts

Dkg

12-07-2005, 02:02 AM

no, there's nothing wrong with that, and exactly how would unorganized religion work?? "unorganized religion" is like an oxymoron. religion needs organization, otherwise, people would be doing a LOT of crazy things all in the name of their beliefs/faith

chefmike

12-07-2005, 02:10 AM

crazy things such as...

keeping their beliefs to themselves

not trying to force their religious agenda on their fellow citizens

not judging their neighbor, lest ye be judged

need some more examples?

chefmike

12-07-2005, 02:13 AM

Hugh Jarrod

12-07-2005, 02:22 AM

OK Dkg let me put it this way instead of "Organized religion" let's say "Institutionalized faith". When people start forcing their beliefs on others it's evil, or going to war, commiting genecide, etc. When a priest uses the fact that someone is putting all their trust and faith in them and they take advantage of that it's evil. We do this with science as well, I trust a doctor because he has a doctorate's degree (except Dr. Dre). He isn't the know all say all to the medical world, that's why we have a choice and can seek a second opinion.