German Chancellor Angela Merkel: German Multiculturalism 'Utterly Failed'

[Dino Velvet]

http://www.foxnews.c...n-debate-heats/ (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/10/17/german-integration-debate-heats/)

Merkel: German multiculturalism 'utterly failed'

Published October 17, 2010
Associated Press


BERLIN – Chancellor Angela Merkel's declaration that Germany's attempts to build a multicultural society had "utterly failed" is feeding a growing debate over how to deal with the millions of foreigners who call the country home.

Merkel told a meeting of young members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union that while immigrants are welcome in Germany, they must learn the language and accept the country's cultural norms — sounding a note heard increasingly across Europe as it battles an economic slump and worries about homegrown terrorism.

"This multicultural approach, saying that we simply live side by side and live happily with each other has failed. Utterly failed," Merkel said.

Merkel's comments were met with applause by the more conservative members of her party, but some Germans in cosmopolitan Berlin argued Sunday she was out of touch with the country's daily life.

"I think her statement is very black and white and does not reflect honestly the lifestyle people are living here," said Daniela Jonas, a German setting up a flea market in the city's diverse Kreuzberg district, where immigrants and native-born Germans live among each other.

Germany and other European countries have grappled with the idea of themselves as immigration nations and Merkel has long been skeptical of the country's attempts to build a multicultural society that includes its estimated 5 million Muslims.

Many immigrants speak little or no German, work in low paying jobs or live off of government handouts at the same time the country faces an aging population and a shortage of highly skilled workers.

"Germany needs more qualified immigration to maintain its economic advantage and deal with the demographic developments," Volker Beck, a lawmaker with the opposition Greens party said Sunday.

Merkel acknowledged in her Saturday comments that then-West Germany in the 1960s opened its doors to Turkish laborers who helped the nation rebuild from the ruins of World War II. Yet German politicians believed those laborers would eventually return home. Instead, many have stayed and their children's children are now starting families here.

A European Championship football qualifier between Germany and Turkey last week reflected built-up tensions. Star Germany player Mesut Oezil, who is of Turkish heritage, was whistled and booed throughout the game by Turkey fans — who outnumbered German supporters in Berlin's Olympic stadium.

The 22-year-old Oezil has become Merkel's poster child for successful integration, and Turkish President Abdullah Gul said in an interview Saturday that he supported Oezil's decision to play for Germany instead of his parents' native Turkey.

Gul also called on Turks living in Germany to learn to speak German "fluently and without an accent," but insisted it was up to German politicians to create the opportunities for its Turkish citizens to learn the language and integrate into society.

"That must begin in kindergarten," Gul told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung. "I have told Mrs. Merkel that."

Last week, several German universities launched departments to train imams who would be able to lead prayers in German as well as Turkish. Most imams in Germany are sent from Turkey and speak no German.

Some argued Sunday that Merkel's comment makes them feel less welcome, and do nothing to encourage integration.

"It's a shame," said a man who gave his name only as Hakim, an immigrant from Morocco. "It is not good for the atmosphere in Germany and it is not a helpful comment."

___

Kerstin Sopke contributed to this report.

[russtafa]

All indigenous populations of Europe know multiculturalisim does not work

[hippifried]

They're Europeans. Whadaya expect? It works fine here. Maybe that's because we've never tried to "build a multicultural society". It just happened because peole came here from all over. It's still happening. We're not Europeans.

[Dino Velvet]

This part of Sweden is a giant toilet that needs to be flushed.

YouTube - Immigrants in Malmo Sweden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZiFAAAYiJ8&feature=player_embedded)

[circ]

Well put on your plumber gear Mario and get to work.

[trish]

Germany could try updating their citizenship laws. It's a bit two-faced to be touting live and let live side by side while generations of people who have worked and lived in the country still aren't citizens and still don't enjoy the full complement of rights that citizens have.

[notdrunk]

Germany could try updating their citizenship laws. It's a bit two-faced to be touting live and let live side by side while generations of people who have worked and lived in the country still aren't citizens and still don't enjoy the full complement of rights that citizens have.

Actually, the Germans did reform their citizenship law back in 2000 and 2005. The kicker is that you need to know German and you can't be on welfare. The article mentions a lot of immigrants hardly speak any German or they are on welfare. So, a lot of them are disqualified. It is rational for a country to ask perspective citizens to know the primary language and not leech off the system.

[trish]

Actually, the Germans did reform their citizenship law back in 2000 and 2005. I didn't know. Thanks for the update. Good for them. So now they need to give it some time. Those kids born in Germany to non-German parents are only ten or eleven years old at most.

[hippifried]

So now what? The Germans going to start goosesteppin' again? They gonna start rounding up the folks who aren't German enough & ship them off to wherever?

I don't understand all this incessant whining about "multiculturalism" (whatever that means). I'm an American, where the more diversity you have in your personal mutt mix, the more bragging rights you get. Give me one good reason why anybody should worry whether the European version of klan/nazis' comfort & sensativities levels is disrupted by a lack of perfect whiteness & conformity. What a bunch of whiny punks.

[Coroner]

I didn't know. Thanks for the update. Good for them. So now they need to give it some time. Those kids born in Germany to non-German parents are only ten or eleven years old at most.

They´re much older than 10 or 11 years old. During the past weeks, few German politicians blazed up this immigration and integration debate, just following the actual European trend. This debate was particularly started by Thilo Sarrazin, a social democratic politician and former chief of the German Bank. After German president Christian Wulff said that "islam is a part of Germany", he was very criticized, especially by his own party, the conservative CDU. They criticized him by stating that islam cannot have the same rank as christianity in German society. Soon after that, another conservative, Horst Seehofer, said that "multiculturalism is dead" and Merkel followed him. In their opinion, there should only be a German dominant culture, based on Christian values, as they believe.
But they are completely wrong. First of all, the modern German society is based on the principles of humanism and enlightenment, not Christianity. In brief, Germany is a secular state and most of its citizens are undenominational. People that do not belong to any church make up the majority in Germany. Yet, religion still enjoys lots of privileges from the state and after Wulff declared islam a part of Germany, some of those islamic leaders there thought islam could get the same privileges. This cannot happen and the same should count for christianity. Your religion is your private matter and keep it out of schools, politics, science, work etc.

Those statements by some politicians were aimed towards Turkish immigrants and their descendants because they are the least integrated. Why? Well, along with former Yugoslavs and Italians, they were among the first groups to come to Germany in the 1960ies. The state of Germany needed cheap labor and invited all those people but the government never really cared about integration and social interaction between them and the German. While Yugoslavs, Italians or Poles are not that hard to be integrated, it´s not the same with Turks. Their culture is completely different and since most of them came from some really rural areas in Turkey, you can assume how conservative they are and this is why German society should have taken care to help their children becoming more cosmopolitan and educated. Actually, those among the earliest immigrants are the best integrated because since there were not many of their own in Germany, their children were growing with German kids and the results are different. Now, you have over 2 million Turks and they´re living in their own world. Germany failed to integrate them because they didn´t care while exploiting their cheap labour. Declaring a multicultural society dead and demanding further restrictions for immigrants is hypocritical and wrong but what´s to expect from the reactionary conservatives.
They also forget that the "German economic wonder" would never be possible without the immigrants. Conervatives are making trouble on both German and immigrant sides. They think they´re speaking for entire populations. Once again, Germany, like any other European country, must remain secular. Neither islam or christianity should be privileged. Education is the solution, not tradition.

[russtafa]

where do i sing up

[russtafa]

high or low for whiney european

[russtafa]

America should take all of Europes poor muslims and then America will be happy and also Europe .Australia would also like to give America its poor muslims and junkies .America cant say the world wont give it anything lol

[Coroner]

Go read a book, man.

[russtafa]

I thought it was doing america a favour giveing them all the worlds muslims because it would be doing the world a favour

[muhmuh]

So now what? The Germans going to start goosesteppin' again? They gonna start rounding up the folks who aren't German enough & ship them off to wherever?

how about you shut the fuck up if you havent got the faintest idea of what youre talking about?

[trish]

Very informative post. Thank you Coroner. The Turkish immigrants who have worked in Germany since the 60's and yet still aren't citizens (nor do they have children nor grandchildren who are citizens) is the situation I was trying to remember.

A decade ago a remedy was passed. Namely children born in Germany after Jan 1, 2000 to non-Germans are citizens at birth if at least one parent has had a residence permit for three years, and has been residing in Germany for at least eight years. To keep their citizenship beyond the age of 23 they must apply for it. One wouldn't expect to see a lot of sociological benefits from this remedy until the children covered by the law reach the age where they can appreciate the rights of citizenship. But you're right that the children of those born in Germany in the 60's are much older and as far as I know they have no hope of ever being naturalized or assimilated into the larger body politic.

[circ]

That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm a dual citizen even though I've never set foot in the other country in my life. I can also vote in some things in the country I live in even though I'm not a citizen, just because I have a permanent residence. But I wouldn't be a German citizen even if I was born there to non-German parents? What a joke.

[south ov da border]

Last time Germans had a problem with Multiculturalism didn't we get the Nazi party? Didn't they blame foreigners for the loss of jobs during that post Treaty of Versailles Weimar crash? Maybe I'm misspoken hmm. I do understand their problem but I don't see a solution...

[Niccolo]

how about you shut the fuck up if you havent got the faintest idea of what youre talking about?
He's an ignorant brainwashed fool, don't waste your breath on the likes of him. They like it whenever someone tells them they're full of shit, because in their perverted view of the world this means that they're not. The fact that the likes of him are full of hate means, in their thinking, that other people are 'hatemongers', not them. See how that works? No? That's because you are a morally sane, rational person. But to the likes of him, twisting reality and ignoring logical thought makes perfect sense.

On a more serious note, if you want to get to grips with the likes of him, and understand why they're so filled with hate for other people, do check out Jamie Glazov's book.

[hippifried]

how about you shut the fuck up if you havent got the faintest idea of what youre talking about?
Nah, I don't think I will. Whether you know what I'm talking about or not isn't my problem.

I don't give a shit about anybody's xenophobia. They can either get over it or stay miserable. If you really want assimilation, don't push people into segregated ghettos. But the whiners don't really want assimilation now, do they? It's not just immigrants & the children of immigrants who can't be "German". It's the grandchildren & great grandchildren too. Up to 3 generations of people who were born & raised in Germany, & who don't know any life but German life, who can't call themselves "German". What kind of crap is that? What's the criteria?

This is looking more & more like planned cultural stagnation. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people think it's a good idea to maintain some sort of inbred tribal purity. Even cultures that still admit to tribalism aren't that crazy. It can't & doesn't work. Who decides what German or Danish or Lithuanian or British or French or even European enough is? All this whining over "multiculturalism" is just klan/nazi crap. Right at this moment, Muslims are the new Jews over there, just like Mexicans are here. It's all a bunch of hogwash.

So back to my question: What's Merkel & ilk going to do now that they've decided they don't like it anymore? Is there a plan, or just a big snivel fest in the works?

[russtafa]

He's an ignorant brainwashed fool, don't waste your breath on the likes of him. They like it whenever someone tells them they're full of shit, because in their perverted view of the world this means that they're not. The fact that the likes of him are full of hate means, in their thinking, that other people are 'hatemongers', not them. See how that works? No? That's because you are a morally sane, rational person. But to the likes of him, twisting reality and ignoring logical thought makes perfect sense.

On a more serious note, if you want to get to grips with the likes of him, and understand why they're so filled with hate for other people, do check out Jamie Glazov's book.
Niccolo these peole will always bury their heads in the sand

[russtafa]

Hey Niccolo if you are ever down in aussie me and the lady will show you the town

[hippifried]

Niccolo these peole will always bury their heads in the sand
Oh... & there's the answer from the clown who would project his own brand of fascism on the world.

So the upsidedown solution is snivel-fest. Whine on. I'm sure somebody will pay attention if you're persistent enough.

[muhmuh]

It's not just immigrants & the children of immigrants who can't be "German". It's the grandchildren & great grandchildren too. Up to 3 generations of people who were born & raised in Germany, & who don't know any life but German life, who can't call themselves "German". What kind of crap is that? What's the criteria?

complete and utter bullshit
how about you just stop if you dont know anything whatsoever about germany and stop wasting our time with your brainless drivel?

[hippifried]

complete and utter bullshit
how about you just stop if you dont know anything whatsoever about germany and stop wasting our time with your brainless drivel?
Oh, I'm wrong? They're citizens by birth? Everything I've managed to find on this subject is inaccurate? Well then enlighten me mister smartypants. How many generations does it take? & if they are citizens, what's the gripe? Non-conformity? Curly hair? Un-Luthoranity. Really, I'm curious. Exactly what is the problem? What makes a German a German? How do you justify creating a class of people who have no nationality at all? & where do you get off blaming them for it as if it's some sort of disease?

Is it my timeline that has you discombobulated? Well think about it. These people were invited into Germany in & throughout the '60s, & ever since. Do the math. They were adult workers. (I was high school class of '69, & I'm waiting on the arrival of my first great grandchild in the next few months. No teenage births in the line yet. That's 4 generations including myself.) So why are these people excluded from citizenship? That's rhetorical. It's for the same reason we had the Chinese Exclusion Act, & Australia & New Zealand had non-white exclusion laws. Germany's is blanket. It's just nativist tribal crap. Why should anybody outside of the Reich give a shit about their discomfort with non-whateverthefuck? Or anybody else's for that matter. Culture evolves because people move around & interact. There are worse positions to be in than having to go out & invent an enemy because you can't find a real one. That's all any of this is.

[Niccolo]

complete and utter bullshit
how about you just stop if you dont know anything whatsoever about germany and stop wasting our time with your brainless drivel?
He can't stop because people like him are so filled with hatred they can't keep it inside themselves. They think that the more people they hate, the more their hatred will be justified. It's a strange, perverted way of looking at the world, but they have to think like that because they have to try to justify their hatred to themselves somehow. The only alternative is facing up to reality, and examining who they really are and why they behave the way they do, and that's one thing that the likes of him will never, ever do - they can't, it's just not in them.

[hippifried]

Well, there's nothing to be said that can argue that kind of stupid more than just letting it stand on its own. If anybody's gullible enough to buy it, hey, you're on your own.

[muhmuh]

Oh, I'm wrong? They're citizens by birth?

no theyre not and as a matter of fact many wouldnt want to be either which is why we had the lengthy dual citizenship debate a while ago

there educate yourself
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/en/WillkommeninD/EinreiseUndAufenthalt/Staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht.html

also the vast majority of foreigners in germany are ether already eu citizens or turks (who by the looks of it will become eu citizens in the next few years) so theres hardly any reason to become a german citizen anyway

and for the record calling people especially germans nazis because youre too stupid and uneducated to udnerstand the laws and mentalities in europe makes you a complete and utter twat

[russtafa]

Way to go hippie just open that big mouth of yours and upset every one.Dont worry folks he dosent know what he is talking about he is just dumb hippie

[trish]

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of this portion of the new law ->
As a general rule, foreigners now have the right to become naturalized after eight years of habitual residence in Germany, provided they meet the relevant conditions, instead of the fifteen years previously required. The minimum period of residence for spouses of German nationals is usually shorter. For naturalization, it is necessary to prove adequate knowledge of German. A clean record and commitment to the tenets of the Basic Law (Constitution) are further criteria. The person to be naturalized must also be able to financially support him/herself.

So what does Merkle mean that multiculturalism isn't working? Does she have a remedy in mind?

[hippifried]

no theyre not and as a matter of fact many wouldnt want to be either which is why we had the lengthy dual citizenship debate a while agoNo they're not... & that's my point.
I'm really not interested in your matter of fact/opinion about what somebody else wants. If it were cut & dry, this wouldn't be an issue.


there educate yourself
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/en/WillkommeninD/EinreiseUndAufenthalt/Staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht.html Okay, I looked. There's still no criteria for what constitutes a "foreigner". If not place of birth, then what? Lineage? Someone's nationality should be in limbo because they didn't properly choose their parents? Don't kid yourself. This isn't something that's uniquely German or even Eurocentric. It's just the same old tribal animosity, wrapped up in modern philosophical silliness for those who want others to believe they've outgrown their tribal attitudes. The same blather is going on here, & has been for a long time. That's why we built birthright citizenship into the Constitution 140 some years ago. It's still an argument. I'm sure you've seen & heard all the nonsense about "anchor babies" & whatnot... Same old crap.


also the vast majority of foreigners in germany are ether already eu citizens or turks (who by the looks of it will become eu citizens in the next few years) so theres hardly any reason to become a german citizen anywayWell if that's really the case, then all this incessant whining about "multiculturalism" is just a bunch of bullshit. Right? What's the gripe? But then again, someone who's never seen Turkey, & was born of parents who've never seen Turkey, isn't really a Turk. & let's face it. It's really the Turks we're talking about here, ain't it? You can't tell a Pole from a German by sight, & I imagine not even by linguistics in the border regions.

In a few more generations, this will all breed its way out of existence, & most people wont understand why there was ever a problem. As for the EU, I think Turkey just wants to use the currency until one develops regionally in their neck of the woods or worldwide. There's already talk about creating a universal Asian currency. South America's looking real hard at it too. I'm not so sure that Turkey, in its unique position of straddling the continental border, would really want to be tied to one or the other. I see the EU opting for single nationhood once the interbreeding wipes out the tribal (feudal, nationalist, nativist...) system completely. Confederacies are unwieldy at best. We (here in the US) already went through this. I'm not talking about the Southern rebellion. I'm talking about the confederacy that formed upon our withdrawl from British rule & European feudalism. After a few years, it was such a complicated mess, full of infighting, that we just shitcanned the Articles of Confederation & started all over by writing the Constitution that binds us as a nation to this day. It's worked out okay.


and for the record calling people especially germans nazis because youre too stupid and uneducated to udnerstand the laws and mentalities in europe makes you a complete and utter twat
I didn't call the Germans nazis. I only reference the paranoid nativist attitude. That's why I use "klan/nazi" as one word. The Ku Klux Klan is a homegrown American terrorist organization that predates the Nazis by nearly a century. The priorities of the enemies lists differ slightly, but the attitude & rhetoric are exactly the same. Really. If you removed direct references to Jews from Hitler's speeches, & inserted "illegal alien" instead, you'd think you were seeing something from Lou Dobbs or FAIR.org. The targets of derision are interchangable. It's a crusade against the Muslims again in Europe. Yawn... So what? I'm assuming from this "...we had the lengthy dual citizenship debate a while ago" that you're German. Well I ain't buying it, but I keep hearing all this hype about the superiority of European or western culture. So what happened to enlightenment? Old hat? I'm not seeing much in here.

[muhmuh]

So what does Merkle mean that multiculturalism isn't working? Does she have a remedy in mind?

what she means by multiculturalism is that theres quite a few foreigners who have been living in germany for years without speaking german and separating themself pretty much entirely from the rest of the country
many inner cities have practically become little istanbul (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of turkish immigrants in germany come from eastern turkey and the rather european west turks think theyre a bunch of hillbillies)
the shitstorm (by german standards anyway... this isnt france after all where raising the retirement age to 62 (in german theyre trying to raise it to 67 btw) is a perfectly good reason to set paris on fire) is mostly about her thinking about that immigrants should be required to learn german and integrate into society as opposed to merely encouraging it
additionally the debate is fueled already with sarazins statements a couple of weeks ago


Okay, I looked. There's still no criteria for what constitutes a "foreigner".

someone with a passport that isnt german simple as that


If not place of birth, then what? Lineage?

apparently yes


Someone's nationality should be in limbo because they didn't properly choose their parents? Don't kid yourself. This isn't something that's uniquely German or even Eurocentric. It's just the same old tribal animosity, wrapped up in modern philosophical silliness for those who want others to believe they've outgrown their tribal attitudes. The same blather is going on here, & has been for a long time. That's why we built birthright citizenship into the Constitution 140 some years ago. It's still an argument. I'm sure you've seen & heard all the nonsense about "anchor babies" & whatnot... Same old crap.

ill put this down under more bullshit from you
foreigners in germany are elligible to pretty much all the same social benefits as german nationals including unemployment pay free schooling (sadly not free anymore but still) darn cheap universities and whatever else
basically the only noteworthy differnce between a foreigner whos spent enough time here to be granted unlimited residency and someone with a german passport is in which country hes allowed to vote
theres no penalty i can think of right now to not being german once youre legally in the country


You can't tell a Pole from a German by sight, & I imagine not even by linguistics in the border regions.

er what? polish and german are completely different languages that have nothing in common

as for the rest of your post ill write it down under stupidity from being american and presumably just having laerned that there still is a country named germany and you havent actually wiped it off the map when you arrived late for a world war (again)

[Coroner]

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of this portion of the new law ->

So what does Merkle mean that multiculturalism isn't working? Does she have a remedy in mind?

Well, not even Merkel could apparently be able to answer your question. Right now, there seems to be a struggle for power inside the conservative CDU, that means her party. What´s going on? There are circles inside that party that think she´s not conservative enough, so there she goes by openly agreeing with Horst Seehofer´s deathblow for multiculturalism while at the same time proclaiming Islam as part of Germany (by repeating Wulff´s statement). So, I suggest you re-formulate your question in "what did Seehofer mean".

[russtafa]

The conservatives have to give way to the nationalists to protect their own borders or perish

[Coroner]

The conservatives have to give way to the nationalists to protect their own borders or perish

Hey, were you one of those Australian guys in Oliver Stone´s "Platoon" under the Nazi flag?

[muhmuh]

The conservatives have to give way to the nationalists to protect their own borders or perish

1) nationalism is bullshit
2) nationalism is a delicate issue in germany so thankfully it will likely never again become a view thats taken serious

http://humoncomics.com/art/evil-flag.jpg

[russtafa]

1) nationalism is bullshit
2) nationalism is a delicate issue in germany so thankfully it will likely never again become a view thats taken serious

http://humoncomics.com/art/evil-flag.jpg
Dont say that i likely never happen with unemployment high and lots of unskilled migrants liveing there it is very possible

[hippifried]

what she means by multiculturalism is that theres quite a few foreigners who have been living in germany for years without speaking german and separating themself pretty much entirely from the rest of the country
many inner cities have practically become little istanbul (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of turkish immigrants in germany come from eastern turkey and the rather european west turks think theyre a bunch of hillbillies)
the shitstorm (by german standards anyway... this isnt france after all where raising the retirement age to 62 (in german theyre trying to raise it to 67 btw) is a perfectly good reason to set paris on fire) is mostly about her thinking about that immigrants should be required to learn german and integrate into society as opposed to merely encouraging it
additionally the debate is fueled already with sarazins statements a couple of weeks agoSo what? This all just sounds like more lame excuses for xenophobia. Not very impressive since it's still a neurosis. It's the same old story, over & over & over... Nothing that hasn't been heard before, with the usual blame for all social ills placed on the immigrant scapegoats. We have our own versions of Thilo Sarrazin.





someone with a passport that isnt german simple as that
That still doesn't answer the question.



apparently yes
Apparently? You don't know? Well gee, & I thought you were supposed to be the expert?




ill put this down under more bullshit from you
foreigners in germany are elligible to pretty much all the same social benefits as german nationals including unemployment pay free schooling (sadly not free anymore but still) darn cheap universities and whatever else
basically the only noteworthy differnce between a foreigner whos spent enough time here to be granted unlimited residency and someone with a german passport is in which country hes allowed to vote
theres no penalty i can think of right now to not being german once youre legally in the country

Oh, I see. Separate but equal. Sounds familiar. Works well does it?



er what? polish and german are completely different languages that have nothing in commonOh? So? I'm 20 miles from the Mexican border, where the languages are really different. I understand border dynamics, & the one between Poland & Germany has been shifting back & forth for centuries. The commonality between all border regions is that nationalities, languages, & blood relations all get mixed. It's part of the evolutionary process.


as for the rest of your post ill write it down under stupidity from being american and presumably just having laerned that there still is a country named germany and you havent actually wiped it off the map when you arrived late for a world war (again)
Oh we could have. Easily. Hell, we still occupy it. But we're not Europeans. We actually saved Germany's ass by talking the Russians out of doing it. They were mightily pissed off (with good reason) & would have had no qualms at all about disolving the relatively newly formed German "nation".

I'm not impressed with smug either.

[muhmuh]

i give up youre just too entrenched in your own stupidity and refuse to learn

[hippifried]

Oh, can't hang? Don't worry about it. The argument that "multiculturalism" is destructive or malevolent is an impossible position to defend, & always loses in the end. Scapegoating doesn't work, & that's really all this is.

The real problem is the top down approach to codify &/or set cultural & social norms. You can't legislate assimilation, & expecting it to happen within 1 or 2 generations is naive. Expecting it to happen at all, when the people involved have no hope of ever being officially accepted as members of the society in the first place, is also naive. If they're not wanted in the first place, then what's up with the gripe over assimilation? The whole argument is bogus, & a recipe for cultural stagnation. I have serious doubts that the majority of Germans or Europeans in general see this as a major problem that can't be overcome. Governments should just butt out. Making this official policy, in either or any direction, exacerbates it.

[muhmuh]

i could hang but its completely fruitless to try to discuss these topics with someone who clearly doesnt know the first thing about european or turkish mentalities

[hippifried]

Oh I understand perfectly. You're subscribing to the trumped up myth of regional &/or genetic group think. It's crap & you know it. So far, you haven't told me anything that points to a uniqueness of Germans or Turks. I've heard it all before, from all over the globe, with different players. But it's the same game. All I'm seeing is a personal problem with you. You can't justify the attitude you portray. Nobody can. So you fall back on the old standby of "oh you can't understand". pfffft Weak shit.

[russtafa]

It seems to take a long time to intergrate a minority into the main population of any country and our goverments just import these people with out the consent of the nations people and thought on how these people will impact on the people of that country.Certain left wing elements like to see their countrys disrupted by this forced imigration .I cant wait ti'll the Hippy or trish reply with their nonsense and high school essays of why im totally wrong. History proves these people wrong.lol

[trish]

Certain left wing elements like to see their countrys disrupted... So that's your theory, left wing elements simply enjoy disrupting their respective nations? There could be no other reason why they might favor the fair treatment of immigrants?


It seems to take a long time to intergrate a minority into the main population of any country and our goverments just import these people with out the consent of the nations people and thought on how these people will impact on the people of that country.I don't know about Australia or Germany, but the U.S. government doesn't import immigrants. So how much do you pay for a dozen? Again, I don't know about Australia or Germany, but in the U.S. most of our perceived immigration problems are with corporations and farmers whose hiring practices support a vast black market business of transporting aliens illegally across our borders. The "illegal" workers don't present much of problem. The illegal "underground highway" is a huge problem. Besides transporting virtual slaves, it also transports drugs and weapons. There is a case to be made here for stricter government regulation of private hiring practices.


History proves...Borders are porous. They always have been. It's simply not possible or desirable to seal them airtight. What history shows is that the genetic makeup of every population changes over time under the influx pressure of migrating groups. History teaches us to adjust and adapt.

[Coroner]

It seems to take a long time to intergrate a minority into the main population of any country and our goverments just import these people with out the consent of the nations people and thought on how these people will impact on the people of that country.Certain left wing elements like to see their countrys disrupted by this forced imigration .I cant wait ti'll the Hippy or trish reply with their nonsense and high school essays of why im totally wrong. History proves these people wrong.lol

With whose consent did your ancestors occupy Australia? You´re descendant of immigrants, son. English, Italians or maybe Croats?

[hippifried]

All human history is just a record of peoploe moving around & interacting.

[muhmuh]

Oh I understand perfectly. You're subscribing to the trumped up myth of regional &/or genetic group think. It's crap & you know it. So far, you haven't told me anything that points to a uniqueness of Germans or Turks. I've heard it all before, from all over the globe, with different players. But it's the same game. All I'm seeing is a personal problem with you. You can't justify the attitude you portray. Nobody can. So you fall back on the old standby of "oh you can't understand". pfffft Weak shit.

just because you live in a country that has pretty much no history and no identity of its own and thus have no emotional attachment to your it doesnt mean that applies to the rest of the world
the majority of people who move around europe would never even consider adopting citizenship of the country they reside in (switzerland and monaco being the only exceptions and theats only because people who move there are cheap) and until you understand that fact its utterly pointless to talk to our listen to you on these issues

[russtafa]

With whose consent did your ancestors occupy Australia? You´re descendant of immigrants, son. English, Italians or maybe Croats?
My ancestory is french/maori if its any of your business and iam Australian .Our goverment has decided to limit migration because the population has had enough of being forced to take these immigrants

[hippifried]

just because you live in a country that has pretty much no history and no identity of its own and thus have no emotional attachment to your it doesnt mean that applies to the rest of the world
the majority of people who move around europe would never even consider adopting citizenship of the country they reside in (switzerland and monaco being the only exceptions and theats only because people who move there are cheap) and until you understand that fact its utterly pointless to talk to our listen to you on these issues
Yeah yeah yeah... You speak for the majority of those you don't like. Uh huh... This isn't about citizenship or paperwork. It's about acceptance of people as people, without reservation. All this complaining about those/them is just so much fear driven nonsense. Cultural purity is a myth, & tribal cliques serve no function in society as a whole.

As for the US: You can talk all the smack you like. Maybe somebody will listen if y'all ever stop following our lead.






My ancestory is french/maori if its any of your business and iam Australian .Our goverment has decided to limit migration because the population has had enough of being forced to take these immigrants

Well, Russtafa, by all the criteria laid out in this thread, & in general by the whiners about "multiculturism", you're just another foreign immigrant.

[muhmuh]

i give up youre just way too pent up in your own stupidity and supposed superiority

[hippifried]

That's all ya got? Just as I said.

[muhmuh]

this was supposed to be a discussion not a troll fight you blithering idiot

[hippifried]

& here you still are, attacking me because you can't defend your position.

Like I've said; I've heard all these parrotings because they're the same arguments worldwide, used to create or maintain a class system based on hereditary criteria. This is easy for me because I know exactly what to expect. I've been embroiled in this "us vs them" culture argument for over 30 years, when it caught my attention on a personal level. Long before the advent of the internet. It's not unique to Europe or the Eurocentric, although they get the lion's share of attention. It's just memetically unique to hierarchical societies.

I'm not trying to make this personal. It's not about you. You've just made the claim of expertise. If not you, it'd be somebody else. I'd get the exact same claim that I coudn't possibly understand the uniqueness of the situation from wherever, regardless of where my antagonist was from.

So... Got anything new or an original thought on the so called problem? When you boil it all down, my only argument is that this really isn't a problem to start with & that it's all just trumped up to focus attention away from real problems.

[russtafa]

Yeah yeah yeah... You speak for the majority of those you don't like. Uh huh... This isn't about citizenship or paperwork. It's about acceptance of people as people, without reservation. All this complaining about those/them is just so much fear driven nonsense. Cultural purity is a myth, & tribal cliques serve no function in society as a whole.

As for the US: You can talk all the smack you like. Maybe somebody will listen if y'all ever stop following our lead.





Well, Russtafa, by all the criteria laid out in this thread, & in general by the whiners about "multiculturism", you're just another foreign immigrant.
No im Australian so i have right to say who comes or does not come into my country along with all other australians

[Niccolo]

Oh I understand perfectly. You're subscribing to the trumped up myth of regional &/or genetic group think. It's crap & you know it. So far, you haven't told me anything that points to a uniqueness of Germans or Turks. I've heard it all before, from all over the globe, with different players. But it's the same game. All I'm seeing is a personal problem with you. You can't justify the attitude you portray. Nobody can. So you fall back on the old standby of "oh you can't understand". pfffft Weak shit.

It's quite amusing seeing you spout off like this, then repeatedly make ad hominem comments about 'Europeans' (whoever they might be), and Swedes needing to stop eating seal blubber and so forth ... what a fucking hypocrite, lol ...

[hippifried]

It's quite amusing seeing you spout off like this, then repeatedly make ad hominem comments about 'Europeans' (whoever they might be), and Swedes needing to stop eating seal blubber and so forth ... what a fucking hypocrite, lol ...
well, if you have anything left after your austerity program, go buy a sense of humor.

[hippifried]

Russtafa,



No im Australian so i have right to say who comes or does not come into my country along with all other australians

So... Is that the same "right" that the native Australians had when the island continent was claimed for the crown? Is that the same "right" that the Maori had when the same thing happened to New Zealand?

French & Maori, & living in Australia huh? By the German definition that you seem to support, how are you not a foreigner?

I think the biggest fear of the "nationalist" or "nativist" is that the new wave of immigrants will become like them.

[russtafa]

We conquered Australia and if a European power had not then my maori ancestors would have and there would have been no mercy because we are a warrior people

[hippifried]

We conquered Australia and if a European power had not then my maori ancestors would have and there would have been no mercy because we are a warrior people
Who's "we" mr French/Maori? & how long had the Maori been in New Zealand (or whatever it's really supposed to be called)?

War & conquest were alien concepts to the Australian Aboriginees, who had been inhabiting the island/continent for over 50,000 years. Nobody "conquered" Australia. It was just theft. The very idea that you would think it inevitable that some European power would do the same thing the Brits did really is the problem with the eurocentric mindset. It's the idea that anybody who can't or won't whip your ass must be inferior & not deserving of respect as a human being.

One question that's nagged me for years is why nobody else was living in Australia. It's a hop skip & a jump from Indonesia. It's not like you could miss the land mass if you just sailed in the general direction. All the people surrounding it were seafarers. The "nesians" (indo, micro, mela, & poly) discovered every island in the Pacific. Every single one. Why no settlements in Australia? With all that coastline, there has to be natural sheltered harbors with fresh water & game. One would think that somebody would have checked it out in the thousands & thousands of years that they were sailing all around it. Just a curiosity.

[russtafa]

Maori are a proud warrior people and they were never beaten by the Europeans and other tribes they fought and defeated were wiped out .As a maori mate of mine informed me if they had discovered Australia ,they would have conqured and enslaved and eaten its occupants and thats how it should have been .A greater Maori empire

[PomonaCA]

As a maori mate of mine informed me if they had discovered Australia

They couldn't have been that "Wiped out" if you have a maori friend lol

[hippifried]

Maori are a proud warrior people and they were never beaten by the Europeans and other tribes they fought and defeated were wiped out .As a maori mate of mine informed me if they had discovered Australia ,they would have conqured and enslaved and eaten its occupants and thats how it should have been .A greater Maori empire
They had over 500 years to do something, but there's no evidence that they ever even sailed in that direction. What's up with that? They're Polynesians.

[russtafa]

The Tasman sea is probably one of the roughest stretches of water in the world and even a lot of ships today have a hard time getting though that water and New Zealand is rich in food and there was enough inter tribal fighting in NZ at the time

[hippifried]

You're just making excuses now.

[russtafa]

No excuse that water takes lives all the time do some research

[hippifried]

Well yeah, I know that. But they're Polynesian. The Polynesians were/are the greatest sailors in the history of the planet. They discovered every island in the Pacific, including Hawaii & Easter Island, the 2 most remote places on the face of the earth. Sorry, but I ain't buying that it was too hard to cross the ditch. I would imagine they probably knew the land mass was there. But over the centuries, they never moved there. Neither did anybody else. My question is why.

[russtafa]

Well whats your theory on why it wasn't invaded

[russtafa]

No theory ,oh well looks like i am right

[hippifried]

No theory. Just a question. & it's not just Polynesians, but Melanesians & Indonesians too, who were even closer at the north & northeast coasts. I've never made it to Australia, but if I understand correctly, the north part of the Island is more lush. "Invasion" was never necessary because, as far as anyone knows, these were never warlike people. Somebody'd just have to move in & set up camp. That's all the Brits ever had to do. The natives were never a threat in Australia.

[russtafa]

Just like the moriori in New Zealand the Europeans and Maori wiped them out

[hippifried]

They're not wiped out.

[russtafa]

Yes they are

[russtafa]

As a race they don't exist

[hippifried]

As a race they don't exist
Oh please! They're the same race. The only difference was cultural, & that was because the Moriori decided it wasn't in their interest to kill each other en masse to settle differences. The "Maori invasion" wouldn't have happened if the Brits hadn't armed them, transported them over there, & duped them into murdering their own. Not much of an accomplishment.

[russtafa]

oh please nobody forced them to kill you bleeding heart whimp

[hippifried]

But they wouldn't have done it on their own. Too wimpy to cross the ocean by themselves. Nevertheless, killing people who don't fight back isn't an accomplishment, & certainly nothing to be proud of. It's weak punk behavior. The same kind of stupid that'll get you hard time being somebody's butt bitch these days. You weren't expecting anybody to be impressed, were ya?

[russtafa]

That was and is life and life is very hard its just that the west lives in a protected bubble that will some day pop and its people will find out what reality really is

[hippifried]

Oh hogwash! There's no reason to ever go back to that kind of stupid.

[NRT]

No they're not... & that's my point.
.
I didn't call the Germans nazis. I only reference the paranoid nativist attitude. That's why I use "klan/nazi" as one word. The Ku Klux Klan is a homegrown American terrorist organization that predates the Nazis by nearly a century. The priorities of the enemies lists differ slightly, but the attitude & rhetoric are exactly the same. Really. If you removed direct references to Jews from Hitler's speeches, & inserted "illegal alien" instead, you'd think you were seeing something from Lou Dobbs or FAIR.org. The targets of derision are interchangable. It's a crusade against the Muslims again in Europe. Yawn... So what? I'm assuming from this "...we had the lengthy dual citizenship debate a while ago" that you're German. Well I ain't buying it, but I keep hearing all this hype about the superiority of European or western culture. So what happened to enlightenment? Old hat? I'm not seeing much in here.

This associating with germany with nazis especially after the second world war following the US led allied victory, keeps cropping up. Along with the view mainly from the US, that everyone in western europe would be speaking German and marching in jackboots, if it was not for the US.

The Nazis were in power only 12 years and had the concentration camps for less than 5 years. In the US, genocide of the indigenous population and slavery and denial of human rights to a race of people based on the the colour of skin went on for over 300 years plus another century afterwards of legalised discrimination and segregation. The idea of treating a race of people as inferiors by nature, religion and bylaw, did not come from Hitler, Himmler, the Nazis, they obviously got the idea from what was going on in the US and western hemisphere , since that continent was based on denial human rights to races deemed 'inferior' or pagan.

So its a bit rich if not ignorant to point the finger at nazis who ruled Germany for 12 years, despite causing immense suffering, worse was going on elsewhere especially in the US

[russtafa]

The victors always write the history

[NRT]

Well yeah, I know that. But they're Polynesian. The Polynesians were/are the greatest sailors in the history of the planet. They discovered every island in the Pacific, including Hawaii & Easter Island, the 2 most remote places on the face of the earth. Sorry, but I ain't buying that it was too hard to cross the ditch. I would imagine they probably knew the land mass was there. But over the centuries, they never moved there. Neither did anybody else. My question is why.

I think i found the answer to your above mentioned question below:

The reasons that the Polynesians didn't reach Australia are that there are no favourable trade winds in the Tasman sea that would make possible the passage from New Zealand to Australia and that Melanesia that is lying between Polynesia and Australia is inhabited.
The Polynesians were excellent seamen that knew more about the winds than the Europeans did until Columbus' discovery of America. They knew about the trade winds and that these winds would blow from east to west, allowing to sail west. They knew that these trade winds would be blowing in the tropics, but would be absent in the temperate climate. So when they reached New Zealand they knew they couldn't sail farther west because there were no trade winds in the Tasman Sea.
In the tropics, though, the Polynesians could have made use of the trade winds. thus the Polynesians might have been able to reach Australia by crossing the Coral Sea. The strategy of the Polynesians was to leapfrog from one island to the next, colonize the new island and then sail on. Unlike other cultures, though, they were averse of colonizing islands that were already inhabited. Cass might be rightly inferring that this was a strategy to keep their women from seeing non-Polynesian men.
Whatever the reason, Melanesia stood between Australia and Polynesia, thus preventing the Polynesians to leapfrog towards Australia.

Regards,

[russtafa]

Thanks for the info .Pity hippie could not come up with a good explanation

[trish]

I think hippiefried was just asking. I was curious too, so thanks for the theory.

[russtafa]

so i would like to say that history proves that multiculturalism does not work .Yugoslavia and the Sudan proves this

[trish]

Depends on what you call multiculturalism. Melting pots tend to work. Separate but equal enclaves doesn't, IMO. We can only say that if Merkle isn't pleased with the results, then she's not doing it right.

[russtafa]

Is it true that one ethnic group can't enter an others neighbourhood in America?If this is so i think things are not working out.

[trish]

Is it true that one ethnic group can't enter an others neighbourhood in America?No. It's not true.

[russtafa]

oh i've heard of these ethnic gangs that control neighbourhoods ie latin kings,mexican mafia,crips,bloods that are racially dominant and attack other ethnic groups

[trish]

Still, the answer to the question, "Is it true that one ethnic group can't enter another's neighborhood in America?" is "No, it's not true." Unless perhaps you mean, "Is it true that there are two gangs of kids somewhere in America that have respectively staked out proximate territories, and each gang attempts to keep members of the other gang out their respective territories?" In that case the answer is "Yes, there's the conservative side of the aisle and the liberal side."

[russtafa]

ok i'm enlightened

[russtafa]

In my country some areas other people just would not want to live because the local population would be so hostile

[trish]

In my country some areas other people just would not want to live because the local population would be so hostile Well that's different than saying generally one ethnic group can't enter the territory of another.

In the U.S. adults are usually well behaved with regards to ethnicity, though I can cite you some very gruesome racially motivated crimes and I can attest first hand that in some places the behavior of the police could stand some improvement when it come to issues of ethnicity.

We also in the U.S. have gangs of kids (usually boys) and young adults (usually men) that engage in various criminal activities (almost always dealing drugs). They seem to be neighborhood based first and foremost. You don't find kids crossing town to interview for membership in a gang. Gangs are also economically based. To protect their "business" they protect their "territories". You rarely find them in middle class neighborhoods, or wealthy neighborhoods (unless you number Wall Street Bankers among the street gangs). They are mostly a phenomenon of poor neighborhoods. But you won't find them in all poor neighborhoods. Gangs will naturally reflect the ethnicities found in their neighborhoods. They are also mostly a city phenomenon. You rarely find gangs in rural towns, though you will still find drug dealers in rural towns.

I don't think you can blame the existence of gangs on multiculturalism...and believe me I'm not a fan of mutliculturalism in its post-modern form. I'm all for the pre-modern form commonly known in the U.S. as the "melting pot." Gangs seems to form in neighborhoods, their members are male children of the very poor and they are centered more around "business" and neighborhood than around ethnicity.

[russtafa]

I am amazed that the police let these groups operate because they harm the local communities around them and corrupt the local youth.

[trish]

I am amazed that the police let these groups operate"let" is probably not the right word. Even though U.S. politicians invoke strong law and enforcement rhetoric, they also invoke strong anti-tax rhetoric. The two kind of neutralize each other as it takes money to enforce the law. Also there's the problem of legislatures usurping the power of the judicial branch through laws that require mandatory punishment. These laws are filling up our jails and costing money like you wouldn't believe...taking away money from enforcement. As I mentioned above, the major problem is drugs. Unlike technological products which require some capital and precision to manufacture, drugs are way too easy to manufacture and they're addictive too. That makes for a difficult enforcement problem. The problem of gangs also couples with the lack of State and Federal monies for adequate education. Most of the money for education in the U.S. comes from property taxes. The children of the wealthy have fantastic public schools. The children of poor neighborhoods, not so much.

[russtafa]

A bit of socialism would not hurt America and help the poor .But i still don't agree with massive immigration to any western country i believe that the world needs a great reduction in it's population to halt the strain on recourses

[trish]

It certainly wouldn't hurt to keep our numbers below the current six and a half billion, and it would've been nice to stop earlier. We seem to be stuck on the idea that economies have to expand to be healthy and so their markets (i.e. the buying publics) have to expand. We need to find a way to maintain a healthy stasis.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the possibility that different peoples from different cultures can peacefully mingle. You, I take it, say they can't. I think they have and they can. But if they're forced into because of economic and population pressures, it may well be impossible.

[russtafa]

It also is the responsibility of the major religions to encourage their people to reduce their populations.Gone are the days when their priests,imams,sheiks,rabbis could encourage their people to go forth and multiply