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scubaman
10-13-2010, 06:55 PM
Transgender Woman Sues L.P.G.A. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/sports/golf/13lawsuit.htm?_r=1)

Transgender Woman Sues L.P.G.A. Over Policy
By KATIE THOMAS
Published: October 12, 2010


A transgender woman filed a federal lawsuit Tuesday against the L.P.G.A., arguing that its requirement that competitors be “female at birth” violates California civil rights law.

Lana Lawless, a 57-year-old retired police officer who had gender-reassignment surgery in 2005, made her name as an athlete in 2008 after winning the women’s world championship in long-drive golf with a 254-yard drive into a headwind. But this year, Lawless was ruled ineligible in the same championship because Long Drivers of America, which oversees the competition, changed its rules to match the policy of the L.P.G.A. Lawless wrote a letter in May asking for permission to apply for L.P.G.A. qualifying tournaments and was told by a tour lawyer that she would be turned down.

“It’s an issue of access and opportunity,” Lawless said in a telephone interview Tuesday. “I’ve been shut out because of prejudice.”

She is also suing Long Drivers of America, two of its corporate sponsors — Dick’s Sporting Goods and Re/Max — and CVS, the sponsor of the L.P.G.A. Challenge, which begins Thursday in Danville, Calif.

A lawyer for Long Drivers of America and a spokesman for the L.P.G.A. declined to comment on the 13-page lawsuit because they said they had not yet seen it. The lawsuit, filed in United States District Court in San Francisco by her lawyer, Christopher B. Dolan, seeks an unspecified amount in damages and a permanent injunction preventing the tour from holding tournaments or qualifying events in California as long as it continues to exclude transgender people.

Lawless is not the first professional female golfer to be transgender. Mianne Bagger, a Danish athlete, competed in the Women’s Australian Open in 2004 and has since toured professionally in Europe and Australia.

The L.P.G.A.’s policy has remained the same even as several sports bodies have changed their rules to accommodate people who are transgender. In 2004, the International Olympic Committee began allowing transgender people to compete if they have undergone reassignment surgery and at least two years of postoperative hormone-replacement therapy. Several other sports organizations then passed their own policies permitting transgender people to compete, including the United States Golf Association, the Ladies Golf Union in Britain and the Ladies European Golf Tour.

“I think the L.P.G.A. is really out of step with other professional sports organizations of its size, and it’s a wake-up call to other entities that we’re not going to tolerate discrimination based on gender identity,” said Kristina Wertz, the legal director of the Transgender Law Center in San Francisco. She said California was one of 13 states, and the District of Columbia, that had laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

Lawless said she had no competitive edge over other female golfers. The reassignment surgery removed her testes, and her hormones and muscle strength are in line with someone who was genetically female, she said. According to her birth certificate, she is a woman. “It doesn’t say ‘female-ish,’ ” Lawless said. “There is no such thing as born female. Either you’re female, or you’re not.”

Her view was challenged by an unlikely source: Renee Richards, the transgender tennis player who won the right to play in women’s events in the 1970s. In a telephone interview, Richards — who wearily noted she had spent more than 25 years fielding calls from reporters seeking comment on such cases — said she thought physically strong transgender women could have an advantage. Speaking of the Olympic committee, Richards said, “they’re going to get in trouble someday because somebody’s going to come along who’s strong in sprints or weight throwing or whatever and streak the field.”

However, Richards said that in individual cases, allowing a transgender athlete to play could be appropriate. Richards noted that she was 40 when she filed her suit, and said Lawless, at 57, probably fell into the same category.

“Maybe it’s O.K.,” she said. “Let her play and be done with the whole big argument about it. She’s not going to be on the tour.”

Although Lawless said she had played golf all her life — as an amateur, she played with a 1 handicap — she became interested in competing professionally after watching the women’s long-drive championship on ESPN in 2006. She placed third in 2007 and won the title in 2008. Sponsorships followed, including one with Bang Golf, which sells golf drivers. She said she lost the sponsorship after she was ruled ineligible to compete in the 2010 championship.

“It was devastating to me,” Lawless said of the rule change. “How can they say that rule was not changed specifically directed at me if you have a rule that allows me to play and you come back and you change it?”

Because Lawless has received prize money and sponsorship payments for playing golf, she said she was considered a professional and could not compete in amateur tournaments unless she applied to the U.S.G.A. for reinstatement, something she is not willing to do.

Because the U.S.G.A. allows transgender people to compete, Lawless could play in the United States Women’s Open. But without entry into the L.P.G.A., she said she has just one chance to qualify, by playing in a local tournament.

“All the girls from the L.P.G.A. that are in the top percentile, they get to go straight to the U.S. Open. I have one day,” she said. “Tiger Woods doesn’t play his best golf every day.”

dgs925
10-13-2010, 07:17 PM
So I'll play the devil's advocate here. Why are sports competitions segregated along gender lines? That's right, males are on average stronger than females. The strongest and fastest men are stronger and faster than the strongest and fastest women.

So if gender segregation in sports is fair, then why would it be fair for MtF transgenders to compete as women?

www.tglovers.com
10-13-2010, 08:09 PM
This is one of those subjects that I am somewhat ambivalent about. I think transsexuals should have the rights afforded to every biological woman but when it comes to athletics...transsexual may have an unfair advantage. (http://cerebraldiva.blogspot.com/2010/10/transgendered-golfer-sues-lpga.html)


Well now, this is awkward. The LPGA may find itself in the same position tennis did in 1977, when Renee Richards won a court order that allowed the transsexual to play in the women's bracket at the U.S. Open.
Lana Lawless -- a 57-year-old retired cop who had gender-reassignment surgery in 2005 -- has sued the LPGA (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/sports/golf/13lawsuit.html?_r=1) over a rule that says all competitors must be female at birth.
Lawless, according to the New York Times, won the 2008 women's world championship in long-drive golf, but was ruled ineligible this year because Long Drivers of America adopted the LPGA rule. Lawless also applied to play in LPGA qualifying tourneys, but was told she'd be rejected.
"I've been shut out because of prejudice," Lawless told the Times.
Long Drivers of America and the LPGA declined comment. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District court in San Francisco.
Richards' trip to the U.S. Open didn't last long. She lost her first-round match (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,727705,00.html) to Virginia Wade in straight sets, the same way she had been defeated there in 1960, when she competed as Richard H. Raskind.


Sourc (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2010/10/lpga-transgender-lawsuit-renee-richards/1)e

YouTube - Male, Female Or "Other" - Is there a need for a 3rd sex classification (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGDytWeJg14)

hwbs
10-13-2010, 08:53 PM
its weird ...most of the mens sports sanctions dont include gender but all of the womens one do...i used to be big into amateur bowling and pretty much any women can obtain a card to participate in their events...in fact women can bowl in any of the mens pba events required that they qualify for the events...

princevince89
10-13-2010, 08:56 PM
I dont think she should be aloud. It's a matter of biology, the reason there are men and women divisions is because men are stronger and faster then women. Not being sexist it's true.

dgs925
10-13-2010, 09:04 PM
Copied from here (http://hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=50716), as this seems to be the thread that is getting discussion:

So I'll play the devil's advocate here. Why are sports competitions segregated along gender lines? That's right, males are on average stronger than females. The strongest and fastest men are stronger and faster than the strongest and fastest women.

So if gender segregation in sports is fair, then why would it be fair for MtF transgenders to compete as women?

Jericho
10-13-2010, 10:34 PM
So if gender segregation in sports is fair, then why would it be fair for MtF transgenders to compete as women?

Cake...Eat it...Init! :shrug

phobun
10-14-2010, 03:13 AM
Most female professional golfers look either butch or like they could be trans anyway.

Very few Korean girls are 6'1".

Tepres
10-14-2010, 03:27 AM
So I'll play the devil's advocate here. Why are sports competitions segregated along gender lines? That's right, males are on average stronger than females. The strongest and fastest men are stronger and faster than the strongest and fastest women.

So if gender segregation in sports is fair, then why would it be fair for MtF transgenders to compete as women?

It wouldn't be fair to anyone who's intellectually honest. All trannies were once men and are gonna have more physical capabilities than most GGs.

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 03:29 AM
When MTF transsexuals take esterogen and other female hormones and testosterone blockers, we lose about 50-75% of muscle mass or so, bringing them in line GG women pretty much..

Tepres
10-14-2010, 03:33 AM
And when it comes to winning money in a tournament, I imagine they're going to cut down on their hormone dosage considerably before competing. There's just too many ways to get around that.

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 03:36 AM
And when it comes to winning money in a tournament, I imagine they're going to cut down on their hormone dosage considerably before competing. There's just too many ways to get around that.
Yea I dont think so. Once you have SRS or an orchi that testosterone production is lower than a GG female.

Besides, those women can just take steroids. How is that any different than what you just said?

Tepres
10-14-2010, 03:38 AM
Yea I dont think so. Once you have SRS that testosterone production is lower than a GG female.

Besides, those women can just take steroids. How is that any different than what you just said?

I'm not sure but I believe there's steroid testing in that sport. If not, it's only a matter of time before they do start testing. There not going to check to make sure a tranny is taking the proper amount of hormones to make sure her strength equals a GG's.

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 03:46 AM
I'm not sure but I believe there's steroid testing in that sport. There not going to check to make sure a tranny is taking the proper amount of hormones to make sure her strength equals a GG's. If not, it's only a matter of time before they do start testing.

once you remove the testicles as that performer has, you will not even be producing as much testosterone as a gg female...so it doesn't really matter

besides, I think in sports that do allow transsexuals that require you have a sex change. There is no point in checking hormone levels for TS women any more than a GG woman at that point.

gumbercules
10-14-2010, 03:49 AM
Finally a reason to watch womens golf, apart from watching Michelle Wee of course. Dirty cow!!!

Tepres
10-14-2010, 03:52 AM
once you remove the testicles as that performer has, you will not even be producing as much testosterone as a gg female...so it doesn't really matter

besides, I think in sports that do allow transsexuals that require you have a sex change. There is no point in checking hormone levels for TS women any more than a GG woman at that point.

If the tranny was a strong man, then she's not going to lose all of the male strength that was acquired over a lifetime, even after the surgery.

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 03:58 AM
If the tranny was a strong man, then she's not going to lose all of the male strength that was acquired over a lifetime, even after the surgery.

atleast 50-75% of muscle mass WILL be loss assuming shes not working out or something...you will be suprised. Look at some before and after pictures.

its not an overnight thing. Happens over a few years.

fred41
10-14-2010, 04:03 AM
atleast 50-75% of muscle mass WILL be loss assuming shes not working out or something...you will be suprised. Look at some before and after pictures.

its not an overnight thing. Happens over a few years.

I seriously doubt a cop who had SRS when he was 52 years old is going to lose that much muscle mass.

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 04:03 AM
I seriously doubt a cop who had SRS when he was 52 years old is going to lose that much muscle mass.
she will...it takes time, but its going to happen.

fred41
10-14-2010, 04:14 AM
she will...it takes time, but its going to happen.

but until it happens she may have an unfair advantage...(not like I care about golf..lol...but fair is fair)...

fred41
10-14-2010, 04:15 AM
This is her by the way...doesn't say how tall she is..

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 04:18 AM
but until it happens she may have an unfair advantage...(not like I care about golf..lol...but fair is fair)...
if anything those women have an advantage because they aren't at the mercy of their homones

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 04:18 AM
This is her by the way...doesn't say how tall she is..

those are are fat not muscle

look at that

fred41
10-14-2010, 04:29 AM
those are are fat not muscle

look at that

Amy, you are thinking with your heart here...you know as well as I do that if that picture was taken straight on you would see her shoulder width would probably exceed the average woman...if she had SRS at 52..then her whole skeletal system is that of a man and would clearly give her an advantage over a woman...(not necessarily skill..but physical strength)...this would probably not be changed much by hormones.

AmyDaly
10-14-2010, 04:38 AM
Amy, you are thinking with your heart here...you know as well as I do that if that picture was taken straight on you would see her shoulder width would probably exceed the average woman...if she had SRS at 52..then her whole skeletal system is that of a man and would clearly give her an advantage over a woman...(not necessarily skill..but physical strength)...this would probably not be changed much by hormones.

your skeletal structure isn't going to give you any advantage...it has nothing to do with your muscle...all transsexuals will have a male skeletal structure unless they take HRT before any puberty

phobun
10-14-2010, 05:26 AM
but until it happens she may have an unfair advantage...(not like I care about golf..lol...but fair is fair)...


I don't know if I buy this. Golf is much more about skill than strength. Michelle Wie may be 6'1" but next to most 6'1" guys she'd look like a stick and is probably weaker than many men, yet she excels.

phobun
10-14-2010, 05:28 AM
This is her by the way...doesn't say how tall she is..


Well, given that gorgeous photo I'm surprised that she didn't also sue the Miss America Pageant for the right to compete.

ALYSINCLAIRxxx
10-14-2010, 05:36 AM
I played golf in high school and college and worked in golf most of my life. 254 isn't that great. I'm surprised that is all it took. Must have been a big head wind. Players on the LPGA regularly drive further than that. Michelle Wie hits 300 on occasion. Or look at Laura Davies or Christina Kim, those girls are comparable size to Lana

Anyway, Amy is right on about the science that muscle mass is comparable to women after a period of time. It's been proven time and again.

Overall, Mianne Bagger tried to do the same challenge and went through the same testing and wasn't allowed either. Doesn't surprise me, unfortunately, that Lana can't play.

A post-op woman can't cut her hormone dosage otherwise she will be even weaker than the average female.

Tepres
10-14-2010, 08:05 AM
I just got back from my workout. :pumped:

That tranny in the picture definitely looks stronger than the average female. I don't buy for a moment that she's going to lose 50-75% of that muscle, not even close. And I don't think she's even gonna try, especially when there's money to be made. There's also such a thing as muscle memory. If this person cuts her hormone dosage, she'll have a definite physical advantage. And she will cut it because it's all about the money. Maybe they need to invent a 3rd gender tournament? lol

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=348619&stc=1&d=1287022539

tsparisangelline
10-14-2010, 09:06 AM
Anyone with sense knows that after SRS or an Orchiectomy your muscle mass vabnishes EXTREMELY FAST!!

2 Years of hormones alone create a drastic change on your body.

I have to totally cosign everything AMY (the only one with sense in this thread) said.

P.S How many women can take testosterone (ordered from pharmacys overseas) and become stronger than the average females?

ghbryans1
10-14-2010, 06:08 PM
Oh come on now. Hormones and SRS can do a lot, but they can't undo decades of testosterone, growing up a man, or give you ovaries and a womb.

God bless, but this asking everyone to buy into something that just ain't so, so someone can feel comfortable with their non-standard lifestyle and choices is BS. All you're really going to get are a lot of people who won't tell you what they really think.

Acceptance and tolerance are one thing, and we're all for that. Delusion is another matter entirely.