Why is it?

[Solitary Brother]

That the most educated transexuals...the ones that are visable in everyday life working 9 to 5 jobs always seem to be the most UNpassable transexuals you ever want to see?
Im not being mean here ....really.....but most of them look TERRIBLE....
HORRIBLE.
Its not a good look for the transeuxal community.
What do you guys think?

[zezmonk]

Not sure what to say. I think that most "not so passable" ladies are simply happy to live the life they are naturally drawn to live. They may not be as concerned with surgery, hormone therapy, etc. And the obvious - some ppl have a more masculine appearance in general. Regardless, I bet they are comfortable in their own skin and that's what's up

[BellaBellucci]

Personally, I think they owe it to the community that helps support their self esteem and/or denial to stop being so cheap and take some of the money they made throughout a life as a well educated male in America and if they're not going to use it to fix themselves, they should give it to someone who will so that that person can represent the transgendered community to people who think we all look like this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/franknfurter/frankenfurter.jpg

~BB~

[ARMANIXXX]

That the most educated transexuals...the ones that are visable in everyday life working 9 to 5 jobs always seem to be the most UNpassable transexuals you ever want to see?
Im not being mean here ....really.....but most of them look TERRIBLE....
HORRIBLE.
Its not a good look for the transeuxal community.
What do you guys think?


No real offense intended,
But you've been here for like, 4 years or so, live in THE BAY AREA, of all places,
and you seem to know very little of TS's.

You've said/implied you've never been with a TS intimately, yet you clearly are interested in them, so I mean....
I don't quite understand you.

But to answer you inquiry directly,
There's lots of 9 to 5 working TS's that are nice and decent looking.....decent people to boot.
If you actually went out in the Bay Area (where you claim you live) and looked around, you'd see this. There's shitloads of them, Solitary Brother.

Just f'in do it already.....it's about time dude.....for real.

[ncc-1701]

...take some of the money they made throughout a life as a well educated male in America and.....

~BB~

Don't want to sound pedantic, but there is more than America in the world :D


But I agree, as long as someone is happy the way they are, who are we to judge?

[AmyDaly]

That the most educated transexuals...the ones that are visable in everyday life working 9 to 5 jobs always seem to be the most UNpassable transexuals you ever want to see?
Im not being mean here ....really.....but most of them look TERRIBLE....
HORRIBLE.
Its not a good look for the transeuxal community.
What do you guys think?

First of all you are wrong. You are totally wrong. You are just out of the loop. Thats why it seems like that to you. I worked in IT for 5 years at a normal job. Noone ever knew that I know of. I have many friends who you would never know are trans and live under the radar who work normal jobs. You just can't spot them. Like I said, you are out of the loop.

The only reason why it seems like that to you is because they stick out like a sore thumb, while the rest blend in.

And whats it to you how they look? Some people are blessed with good bone structure or the right genes. Some are not. For some ts women, there is no sugery in the world that will make them passable. They can't do anything about it. Its not their fault. Everyone looks different.

You have no credibility to say who is good and who is not good for our community when you clearly don't know a thing about ts women or women in general.

[BellaBellucci]

Don't want to sound pedantic, but there is more than America in the world :D


But I agree, as long as someone is happy the way they are, who are we to judge?

There's a world beyond America? OMG. They told me that if I sailed too far I'd fall off the edge of the world. Wow, now I want to go out and explore. ;)

And I didn't say we shouldn't judge - I'm saying that the world will and does. What I said was that part of the existence of a non-passing transwoman is ridicule. Some people think that makes them stronger, and that's true - I've met quite a few who are spectacular human beings, but the OP's point was that in his world view, they are the most visible and are probably not the best representatives of our community to the population at large. It's hard to argue against that basic truth. Sure, looks aren't everything, but let's not pretend they aren't anything.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

You just can't spot them. Like I said, you are out of the loop.

The only reason why it seems like that to you is because they stick out like a sore thumb, while the rest blend in.

Those that blend in don't speak up because they don't want to lose their stealth privilege. I think SB has a point. It's only those who must be forced to be openly trans by being non-pass that end up representing our community while those who blend want nothing to do with the cause.

You and I each have both a TS existence and a stealth existence, but most transwomen IMHO have one or the other, so you of all people should understand what I mean.

~BB~

[AmyDaly]

Those that blend in don't speak up because they don't want to lose their stealth privilege. I think SB has a point. It's only those who must be forced to be openly trans by being non-pass that end up representing our community while those who blend want nothing to do with the cause.

You and I each have both a TS existence and a stealth existence, but most transwomen IMHO have one or the other, so you of all people should understand what I mean.

~BB~
I understand what you mean. They are forced to go stealth because of the way society treats us and they just don't want to deal with it or they have their own personal reasons. I also know looks play a part in society. But they shouldn't.

I have a friend who was a fucking ROCKET SCIENTIST for ucla. She was a great person AND active in the community. She wrote letters to the heads of the school and tried to make policy changes. She did all she could. She would not pass 1 bit. She was like 6'5. She had FFS and SRS and a boob job, nothing could hide that she was trans. Are you telling me that this person would not be good for our community as a leader? I don't give a shit what she looks like. She can represent me any day.

We need people who can represent us to show that we are just as normal as anyone else. We are doctors and lawyers, and Rocket scientists, and IT engineers and bankers, and everything else. We don't need people representing us just based on their looks.

[shemale-411]

Why is it someone trying to talk out the side of his mouth and diss the TS community and talk about how uneducated they are...makes a post filled with misspellings and grammatical errors?


That the most educated transexuals...the ones that are visable in everyday life working 9 to 5 jobs always seem to be the most UNpassable transexuals you ever want to see?
Im not being mean here ....really.....but most of them look TERRIBLE....
HORRIBLE.
Its not a good look for the transeuxal community.
What do you guys think?

[BellaBellucci]

I understand what you mean. I know looks play a part in society. But they it shouldn't.

I have a friend who was a fucking ROCKET SCIENTIST for ucla. She was a great person AND active in the community. She wrote letters to the heads of the school and tried to make policy changes. She did all she could. She would not pass 1 bit. She was like 6'5. She had FFS and SRS and a boob job, nothing could hide that she was trans. Are you telling me that this person would not be good for our community as a leader? I don't give a shit what she looks like. She can represent me any day.

Yeah, ok. Let me qualify my statement then: exceptions apply. And it's funny I was actually going to say just that (complete with a pic of Einstein in drag if I could find it, lol).

Sure. If someone had incredible intelligence or charisma or some other trait that would be helpful to the cause, then yeah, you're right. But I'm pretty sure SB's talking about your dime-a-dozen non-pass.

~BB~

PS: Found it!

http://www.princeton.edu/~artofsci/gallery/images/97.jpg

[AmyDaly]

ome other trait that would be helpful to the cause, then yeah, you're right. But I'm pretty sure SB's talking about your dime-a-dozen non-pass.

~BB~

PS: Found it!

http://www.princeton.edu/~artofsci/gallery/images/97.jpg

lol

And I'm pretty sure SB doesn't know he is talking about. He needs to worry about who represents his own community before worrying about ours.

[BellaBellucci]

lol

And I'm pretty sure SB doesn't know he is talking about. He needs to worry about who represents his own community before worrying about ours.

I never said he knew what he was talking about. I just think he stumbled upon something that had some legitimacy to it. But on your other point...

Dead. Sorry SB. :geek:

~BB~

[ARMANIXXX]

lol

And I'm pretty sure SB doesn't know he is talking about. He needs to worry about who represents his own community before worrying about ours.


I'm pretty sure Oprah and Obama are doing just fine.


And believe it or not.....mabey before your time,
but Flava Flav was a solid rep. at one point too.
:cool:

[BellaBellucci]

I hope you don't think Obama and Oprah represent anybody but the corporate oligarchy. Just sayin'.

~BB~

[Nicole Dupre]

Outside of the very superficial world of being a sex worker, which I fucking LOVE btw, there is also the common reality that we ALL live in. We do laundry, look for parking spots, make grocery lists, clean the litter box, walk the dog, etc. That's the very same world where would-be connoisseurs of passability and sexiness, like you, are staring at my tits on line at the supermarket, and I'm laughing at you on the inside because you look like a garbage man on crack.

So just remember that you are in the ghetto, punching a ground-scored heavy bag. Don't get all high and mighty, Solo Bro, because you'd be lucky if even a total skank hooker took your drug-dealing money and let you breathe within 10 feet of her. You have no career, no money, no looks, no brains, no skills, no nuthin'. So ask yourself the question of how you wound up being a bottom feeding ghetto philosopher without a pot to piss in, before you cast a pebble at ANYONE who has an education, a job, and who has also transcended their birth gender...

you fucking faggot. 8)

[HSGear]

That the most educated transexuals...the ones that are visable in everyday life working 9 to 5 jobs always seem to be the most UNpassable transexuals you ever want to see?
Im not being mean here ....really.....but most of them look TERRIBLE....
HORRIBLE.
Its not a good look for the transeuxal community.
What do you guys think?

it might be that the most educated ones are also the oldest

[BrendaQG]

As far as who becomes an activist in this community and who gets to be in sex work and who is passable and stealth is concerned.

The activist types are usually people who lived 40 50 60 years with white upper class male privillage and in a somewhat masculine way they want to be "leaders". That's in addition to the reasons give above.

Why it is these people have regular jobs and such and thus.... There is a bias against femininity in basically every field. It is the reason why a stereotypical gay male interior decorator can be more successful than a GG. Excuse me while I belly ache. It is the same reason I, and my female colleagues in Physics have to work extra hard to get what boys get for nothing.

In short it is a mans world and many of the leaders of the TG community who aren't passable and are perceived as men still benefit from their status and position.

Then there is the fact that among such people when they set up their pecking order the more feminine and passable will not be high up. It's like "How could you have problems?"

What I hate most is when someone complains that girls like us make people think that they are sex workers too. As if, perhaps in their dreams if even there. I'm gonna stop now before I really go off.

[BrendaQG]

it might be that the most educated ones are also the oldest

True, education especially beyond a BS or BA takes time. It's a question of being a out transperson as you climb the ladder VS climbing the ladder then coming out. (Then all too often passing judgement on those who haven't climbed so high yet.)

[peggygee]

First of all you are wrong. You are totally wrong. You are just out of the loop. Thats why it seems like that to you. I worked in IT for 5 years at a normal job. Noone ever knew that I know of. I have many friends who you would never know are trans and live under the radar who work normal jobs. You just can't spot them. Like I said, you are out of the loop.

The only reason why it seems like that to you is because they stick out like a sore thumb, while the rest blend in.

And whats it to you how they look? Some people are blessed with good bone structure or the right genes. Some are not. For some ts women, there is no sugery in the world that will make them passable. They can't do anything about it. Its not their fault. Everyone looks different.

You have no credibility to say who is good and who is not good for our community when you clearly don't know a thing about ts women or women in general.



Those that blend in don't speak up because they don't want to lose their stealth privilege. I think SB has a point. It's only those who must be forced to be openly trans by being non-pass that end up representing our community while those who blend want nothing to do with the cause.

You and I each have both a TS existence and a stealth existence, but most transwomen IMHO have one or the other, so you of all people should understand what I mean.

~BB~


I would tend to say that there are roughly three categories of
transwomen, with of course over-lapping of the categories:

1. The transwoman who may experience difficuly in passing, but continues
to live her life as the woman she self-identifies herself as.

2. The transwoman who may self out for marketing purposes, i.e. the
escort or model who is out primarily for economic reasons.

3. The stealth transwoman who for the most part dissociates herself from
the transcommunity.

The OP contends that it is only the first transwoman that is an activist
and tends to publicly advocate for the community. It is his further
contention that by her physical appearance that she does the community
a disservice.

With regards to those employed in the sex industry, I would say that
there is nothing that would preclude them from advocating for their
community and issues.

The same can be said of the stealth transwoman who tries to avoid any
public connection with the community lest she be lumped in with the other
two categories, or for personal reasons known only to herself. I would
say that even if she doesn't want to march on picket lines, and have her
face plastered on the 6 o'clock news, that she too can be involved.

Bottom line, I feel that no matter your physical appearance, where you
are at in your transition, how in or out you are with your gender status,
or other demographic, there is a a role for you to play, and that goes as
well for our SOFFAs (significant others, families, friends,and allies).

[Solitary Brother]

Im not trying to be disrespectful and I am not talking about girls who are "stealth".
Im talking about these trannies you see and they go on and on and on about how they are women and some of them have even had the operation.
But they look just like a man and REALLY stand out.
You all have seen it.
The transexual community is NOT respected EVEN by the gay community much less than straight community.
I just dont see it happening for you and it because of so-called "women" like this.
I know I sound horrible and just terrible but Im being real.
When the most unpassable women are the most visable.....well you got MAJOR problems.

[BellaBellucci]

Im not trying to be disrespectful and I am not talking about girls who are "stealth".
Im talking about these trannies you see and they go on and on and on about how they are women and some of them have even had the operation.
But they look just like a man and REALLY stand out.
You all have seen it.
The transexual community is NOT respected EVEN by the gay community much less than straight community.
I just dont see it happening for you and it because of so-called "women" like this.
I know I sound horrible and just terrible but Im being real.
When the most unpassable women are the most visable.....well you got MAJOR problems.

I think I relayed your point in a more digestible fashion, as have Amy and Peggy. Understand that respecting each other and having others respect us at the same time requires some balance.

In short, we get your point, we don't entirely disagree except with your wording I think, and we're having a conversation about it within the community that you as a man are really not privy to. Thanks for noticing what we already knew. We'll take it from here. :cool:

~BB~

[ARMANIXXX]

I hope you don't think Obama and Oprah represent anybody but the corporate oligarchy. Just sayin'.

~BB~

Somebody has to do it.

Besides....
free healthcare doesn't suck.

:shrug

[peggygee]

I think I relayed your point in a more digestible fashion, as have Amy and Peggy. Understand that respecting each other and having others respect us at the same time requires some balance.

In short, we get your point, we don't entirely disagree except with your wording I think, and we're having a conversation about it within the community that you as a man are really not privy to. Thanks for noticing what we already knew. We'll take it from here. :cool:

~BB~

The thing with Solitary Brother is that he actually often-times makes
fairly spot on observations, however his phrasing doesn't quite come
across as well as it could.

Then too as ARMANIXXX points out for a guy that lives in the Bay Area,
been on this board for a number of years, and keeps up with the goings
ons of the girls, SB doesn't quite get our nuances and psyche.

[yodajazz]

I think I relayed your point in a more digestible fashion, as have Amy and Peggy. Understand that respecting each other and having others respect us at the same time requires some balance.

In short, we get your point, we don't entirely disagree except with your wording I think, and we're having a conversation about it within the community that you as a man are really not privy to. Thanks for noticing what we already knew. We'll take it from here. :cool:

~BB~
I think as a general concept, it's better to expand your concept of community. There is greater strength in greater numbers, plus more minds to help find the right direction.

I believe 'the community' would benefit from incorporating ancient wisdom in it's general philosophy. The applicable concept here, is the Bible passage that says; "judge not from appearances". Yes appearances do count, but I think appearance is over valued in the trans community. Like what if the people of India had rejected Ghandi, because he was not 'buff' enough? I say too many trans women are neglecting substance, like education and legitimate career building, over the pursuit of beauty. And some of that beauty pursuit, has serious health consequences. Beauty has limitations, everyone changes over time. Too many times here, I have seen women, throw looks into an argument with each other, when the discussion is really about other issues.

This is a sex oriented forum. Men will oogle over looks, myself included. But at the end of the day, true respect will be for those accomplishments, and values of decency. Some of those people will get old, but their accomplishments cant be taken away. The same cannot be said of beauty alone.

[BellaBellucci]

I say too many trans women are neglecting substance, like education and legitimate career building, over the pursuit of beauty.

You have no idea how easy it is for me to agree with you. However, I'm not saying that every transperson has to be beautiful. They don't. What I'm saying is that transgendered leaders should be feminine (i.e. 'passable') enough to be taken seriously as women if they're going to represent us to the cisgendered population. If we want them to understand us, they ought to be able to look at our leaders without laughing inside... and don't get it twisted; they do. Again, the exceptions are those who are so intellectually or socially superior or inwardly feminine as to subconsciously demand that you take them seriously despite their appearance.

I didn't say it was right. I didn't say it was ideal. I just said that it is. Wallowing in denial does nobody any good. I have plenty of trans friends who look nothing remotely like a woman that I feel still have a feminine spirit, but that doesn't mean I want them representing me.

~BB~

[SarahG]

There's a world beyond America? OMG.

Well duh, didn't your classroom have this map in kindergarten? I know mine did.

[SarahG]

Those that blend in don't speak up because they don't want to lose their stealth privilege.

That's quite the broad brush stroke. The problem with this generalization is that there are people out there who blend in enough that they can discuss trans issues with people without being out as trans. Happens far more often than people realize.

If anything, the "out and in your face" tactic causes the general public to go into a state of apathy... and just reaffirms their notions that we're all "a bunch of freaks."

edit:- another thing to throw out there is the issue of identity politics. Its easier for the general public to dismiss a trans activist because they are trans, than it is for them to dismiss the arguments being made by someone who is not trans. That's why the black civil rights movement benefited so much from the moderate Jews, unitarians, and other groups that came to their side. If all the general public ever sees are out & flamboyant late-life transitioned boomers, then it is entirely to be expected that those arguments will go completely unheard & adhered to.

[Jericho]

Help me out here,
Are some people here saying only passable transsexuals (with notable exceptions,) should represent the community?

[SarahG]

Help me out here,
Are some people here saying only passable transsexuals (with notable exceptions,) should represent the community?

Not that I noticed. I think the argument in a nut shell is... "its bad when only the unpassable late-transitioned boomers represent the community."

"When only" being the important words there.

[Jericho]

Hmm, ok..:shrug

[Jericho]

Just, that's the way it was coming across in certain posts.

[Tika]

I'm sure that for prostitution and porn looks are quite important. However, in the real world, there's a tendency to focus on things like education, job skills, work experience and other more relevant things. Hilary Clinton isn't all that pretty, but she's the Secretary of State in the US. Should she get some botox and a facelift so the world will take her more seriously? What about Margaret Thatcher? And let's give all those ugly lesbians a makeover, so they represent the lesbian community better. Nobody takes a fat hairy lesbian seriously, do they?

Speaking as a transwoman, I'd rather have someone less passable and more competent representing "the community" than some plastic-injected fake-looking whore speak for us.

[peggygee]

I think as a general concept, it's better to expand your concept of community. There is greater strength in greater numbers, plus more minds to help find the right direction.

I believe 'the community' would benefit from incorporating ancient wisdom in it's general philosophy. The applicable concept here, is the Bible passage that says; "judge not from appearances". Yes appearances do count, but I think appearance is over valued in the trans community. Like what if the people of India had rejected Ghandi, because he was not 'buff' enough? I say too many trans women are neglecting substance, like education and legitimate career building, over the pursuit of beauty. And some of that beauty pursuit, has serious health consequences. Beauty has limitations, everyone changes over time. Too many times here, I have seen women, throw looks into an argument with each other, when the discussion is really about other issues.

This is a sex oriented forum. Men will oogle over looks, myself included. But at the end of the day, true respect will be for those accomplishments, and values of decency. Some of those people will get old, but their accomplishments cant be taken away. The same cannot be said of beauty alone.


I'm sure that for prostitution and porn looks are quite important. However, in the real world, there's a tendency to focus on things like education, job skills, work experience and other more relevant things. Hilary Clinton isn't all that pretty, but she's the Secretary of State in the US. Should she get some botox and a facelift so the world will take her more seriously? What about Margaret Thatcher? And let's give all those ugly lesbians a makeover, so they represent the lesbian community better. Nobody takes a fat hairy lesbian seriously, do they?

Speaking as a transwoman, I'd rather have someone less passable and more competent representing "the community" than some plastic-injected fake-looking whore speak for us.

Profound and poignant points. :iagree:

[BellaBellucci]

Speaking as a transwoman, I'd rather have someone less passable and more competent representing "the community" than some plastic-injected fake-looking whore speak for us.

I think a trans-representative should be well rounded. It's about balance. Can't our leaders have both beauty and brains? Someone used Hilary Clinton as an example of female leadership and noted that she's aging and doesn't look like she used to, but it's taken for granted that Hilary wasn't formerly male and she's not trying to change human beings' natural inclination towards gender roles but working on mainstream political issues.

As I've said before long ago, some of the sweetest, smartest, most down-to-earth people I've ever met are non-pass transsexuals, but even though I, who has nearly totally trained myself to break the human tendency to associate gender with the visual and vocal aspects of a person (the voice being the #1 subconscious marker), occasionally find myself referring to them with incorrect pronouns. It's human nature and I think we need to stop forcing the 'man in a dress' archetype down the throats of a general public who still, even in 2010, has a hard time accepting even the 'woman with a penis' archetype.

Once again, I'm not happy about that, but as the gays learned in their struggle, re-training society takes time and should be done incrementally. They didn't really gain acceptance until the less flamboyant, stereotypical gays took a back seat to those who embody their current community image of being strong, sensitive, taxpaying, societally contributing, and sometimes even family oriented. In fact, say what you will about gay marriage, but the fact that they want it (and they shouldn't with a 50% divorce rate), most definitely sends a signal to the population at large that, 'hey, maybe they're just like us after all,' even as most states vote to ban it.

So let's find some women who are acceptable to the world at large or have unique skills to represent us before we expect society to take us all to its bosom. I really do think it's the only way.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Someone posted this on the Total-TG Facebook page. Thoughts? Personally, I don't know why a woman this intelligent feels the need to dress they way she does in an academic setting, but hey...

YouTube- The eroticization of M2F transsexuals by straight men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v79_9x7JlQ)

~BB~

[peggygee]

That's quite the broad brush stroke. The problem with this generalization is that there are people out there who blend in enough that they can discuss trans issues with people without being out as trans. Happens far more often than people realize.

If anything, the "out and in your face" tactic causes the general public to go into a state of apathy... and just reaffirms their notions that we're all "a bunch of freaks."

edit:- another thing to throw out there is the issue of identity politics. Its easier for the general public to dismiss a trans activist because they are trans, than it is for them to dismiss the arguments being made by someone who is not trans. That's why the black civil rights movement benefited so much from the moderate Jews, unitarians, and other groups that came to their side. If all the general public ever sees are out & flamboyant late-life transitioned boomers, then it is entirely to be expected that those arguments will go completely unheard & adhered to.

I often-times draw parallels between the Black civil rights movement and
the movement for trans-rights. During the civil rights movement we had
many diverse forces working synergistically for rights.

We had so-called militant groups such as the Black Panthers. There
was also communist and socialist invlovement, personified by the
likes of Dr. Angela Davis. Somewhat related were the numerous riots,
sit-ins, marches, and protests.

There was the Nation of Islam known mostly through Malcolm X, who
after his hajj to Mecca was known as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz but
remained a significant figure in the civil rights movement.

There were Pan-Africanists who sought to unite Africans and peple of
African heritage.

On a more moderate front was Dr. Martin Luther King and his philosophy
of activism through non violence. Along those lines we can also include
the NAACP, as well as the contributions by the moderate Jews and others
that you alluded to.

Mainstream media has to a large extent portrayed Dr. King as the most
significant force of the civil right, and by no means would I take away
from his invaluable and heroic input. However, in my opinion it was all
of the afore-mentioned individuals and entities acting in concert that has
garnered African-Americans the modicum of rights that we have today.

Thus the point that I am attempting to make is that the trans-rights
movement must also rely on all of its diverse elements, if we are to
achieve economic, social, and legal parity within our life-times.

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm sure that for prostitution and porn looks are quite important. However, in the real world, there's a tendency to focus on things like education, job skills, work experience and other more relevant things. Hilary Clinton isn't all that pretty, but she's the Secretary of State in the US. Should she get some botox and a facelift so the world will take her more seriously? What about Margaret Thatcher? And let's give all those ugly lesbians a makeover, so they represent the lesbian community better. Nobody takes a fat hairy lesbian seriously, do they?

Speaking as a transwoman, I'd rather have someone less passable and more competent representing "the community" than some plastic-injected fake-looking whore speak for us.

Margaret Thatcher? lol She was ghoul. Give me a fucking break. You might as well want Ronald Reagan to represent you. And Hillary has done nothing special. Bella Abzug was a beast, but she was a far more impressive politician and human being than Hillary or Thatcher.

Anyway, people who look up to politicians are losers. Politicians are generally all full of shit.

And you have contempt for sexworkers, and you damn well know it, because you're extremely jealous and bitter. You're just toning it all down at the moment because you're surrounded by us. Yeah. This isn't exactly a morgue like TGTalk, honey. Allanah and Wendy both post here. Let's see you open your big mouth now, Miss Altruist. You're no friend of transwomen after the shit you've spewed. You're into chicks, and you come here for the porn. Just admit it.

And I'll represent myself, thanks. I'm not putting anyone on a pedestal over their gender. The people who are successful in life are the people who are content and actually love and respect themselves. Those are the people I admire. Most people are self-loathing emotional cripples, like ...

LoL

[SarahG]

I'm sure that for prostitution and porn looks are quite important.

Looks are quite important everywhere. We'd all like to say they're not, but that would be a lie.


However, in the real world, there's a tendency to focus on things like education, job skills, work experience and other more relevant things. Are you saying looks don't matter for GG's with careers? I have news for you... they matter a great deal. Just look at what employers expect from their female employees in your typical white collar office setting. If all employers cared about were education & experience, then we wouldn't see the dress codes in place that are common place today. What's more, the courts have routinely stated that employers can freely require their female employees get manicures, regular hair cuts, take showers, and use cosmetics. Why do you think career sites & courses spend so much time on appearance information like hygiene and career wardrobes? If you don't look "clean cut & professional" your career prospects go way down... and that's without touching on the racial discrimination and obesity discrimination commonplace in American labor.


And let's give all those ugly lesbians a makeover, so they represent the lesbian community better. Nobody takes a fat hairy lesbian seriously, do they?Actually I think that proves the point here. There is quite a lot of diversity among lesbian activists. Not all lesbians look like the feminists from Married With Children. It's really not hard to find lesbian activists who look like normal, every day women. We don't have anywhere near the diversity that you see in lesbian activism.


I'd rather have someone less passable and more competent representing "the community" than some plastic-injected fake-looking whore speak for us.So you're saying we have to choose between one or the other, with no middle ground, and no contingency of trans girls who look like normal, every day women? I don't see why we have to choose between one extreme or the other. Passability doesn't necessarily require looking like a "plastic injected fake-looking whore" (...whatever the hell that means).

Perhaps there's a strong argument to be made here for trans activists speaking for themselves rather than the community as a whole. I don't care whether you take a late-life transitioned boomer or a passable sex worker who has had every cosmetic surgery under the sun. If you take either of them, place them on national TV, have them say their life story, and then say "ok, you heard her, now apply her life experience to the whole community & any policymaking involving trans issues that you may have to deal with- end of the story" I'm going to have some very strong words to say about that.

[peggygee]

Someone posted this on the Total-TG Facebook page. Thoughts? Personally, I don't know why a woman this intelligent feels the need to dress they way she does in an academic setting, but hey...

YouTube- The eroticization of M2F transsexuals by straight men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v79_9x7JlQ)

~BB~


Thoughts on this?

I have many.

Though one of them is the point that you just made, as well as I'm in
agreement with a number of the comments on the video
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments=1&v=0v79_9x7JlQ

But then again, I will harken back to my previous post that it will take
all of the various types of transwomen to get us to where we need to be.

[BellaBellucci]

Thoughts on this?

I have many.

Though one of them is the point that you just made, as well as I'm in
agreement with a number of the comments on the video
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments=1&v=0v79_9x7JlQ

But then again, I will harken back to my previous post that it will take
all of the various types of transwomen to get us to where we need to be.

Ok, I'll see that and raise you one: this thread is a perfect example. Nicole hates you and me, I'm not crazy about Nicole but I'd say that hate is a strong word for my feelings, Sarah and you just love everyone, and yet we all agree on so many things.

So... what are we doing wrong?

~BB~

[Tika]

I think a trans-representative should be well rounded. It's about balance. Can't our leaders have both beauty and brains? Someone used Hilary Clinton as an example of female leadership and noted that she's aging and doesn't look like she used to, but it's taken for granted that Hilary wasn't formerly male and she's not trying to change human beings' natural inclination towards gender roles but working on mainstream political issues.

No, she's not trying to do that, but she's a woman in an extraordinarily powerful position in the US government, and there's precious few women in influential roles such as that. What you seem to be arguing is that "pretty = better". George Bush was "leader of the free world" for 8 years, and the man could barely express himself without the crowd laughing. Even though he was president, he was looked down upon and frequently mocked because he was a poor public speaker.

I take issue with your "formerly male" comment also. Do you consider yourself, or any other transwoman "formerly male"? Jennifer Paris is stunningly pretty - are you going to say to her face, or to others that she's "formerly male"?


As I've said before long ago, some of the sweetest, smartest, most down-to-earth people I've ever met are non-pass transsexuals, but even though I, who has nearly totally trained myself to break the human tendency to associate gender with the visual and vocal aspects of a person (the voice being the #1 subconscious marker), occasionally find myself referring to them with incorrect pronouns. It's human nature and I think we need to stop forcing the 'man in a dress' archetype down the throats of a general public who still, even in 2010, has a hard time accepting even the 'woman with a penis' archetype.

So at the end of the day, for you at least, a 19-year old pretty model with big tits is somehow "better" than say, Hilary Clinton, because the model's more attractive? I hate to break it to you, but not everyone in the world is as shallow, vain and obsessed with appearance as some members of the transsexual "community".

Vanity is a cruel mistress. Looks fade, accomplishments don't. Character matters far more than perky tits, high cheekbones or a big ass. If I have to choose between a less-than-passable TS who's intelligent, well-spoken and charismatic, or some plasticized wannabe, I'll take the former and take my chances that the public will hopefully learn, as with blacks, gays and other former minority/downtrodden groups, to look past appearances and just see people as people.



Once again, I'm not happy about that, but as the gays learned in their struggle, re-training society takes time and should be done incrementally. They didn't really gain acceptance until the less flamboyant, stereotypical gays took a back seat to those who embody their current community image of being strong, sensitive, taxpaying, societally contributing, and sometimes even family oriented. In fact, say what you will about gay marriage, but the fact that they want it (and they shouldn't with a 50% divorce rate), most definitely sends a signal to the population at large that, 'hey, maybe they're just like us after all,' even as most states vote to ban it.

So let's find some women who are acceptable to the world at large or have unique skills to represent us before we expect society to take us all to its bosom. I really do think it's the only way.
~BB~

"The gays" didn't retrain society. "We're here, we're queer, we're not going away" isn't retraining. It's defiance and militance. So in order to be accepted, if you're gay, you have to be "less flamboyant" and "stereotypical"? Tell me, do you find the statement "Man I wish the blacks would just stop being so black and act WHITE like the rest of us?" offensive?

People are people. Labelling, classifying, pigeonholing, call it what you want, but there's a desperate need to have an us vs them in most people's minds. People are different and you know what? That's okay.

I think that the postops and ultra-passable transwomen who go stealth, who are terrified of their "secret" being discovered, do far more harm than poorly-passing transwomen do to the community. There's no shame in being transgendered, yet we're supposed to have "acceptable" representatives to the world at large before we're taken seriously? Bullshit.

There are trans people out there who are in a world of pain specifically because of your poisonous attitude, Bella. This whole "acceptable" nonsense has got to go. There's people and places where you're not acceptable because of your tattoos, because of your work, or social background, or whatever. Is that okay with you? "Acceptable" kind of takes me back to the whole "White" and "Coloured" bathroom or drinking fountain mentality. "Ohhh no, them coloured folks ain't acceptable around these parts".

Grow the fuck up and stop being an assimiliationist. We're all transwomen, just like regular women. We're diverse. Tall, short, fat, skinny, curvy, sticklike, stupid, smart, whatever. Be proud of who you are.

[SarahG]

Someone posted this on the Total-TG Facebook page. Thoughts? Personally, I don't know why a woman this intelligent feels the need to dress they way she does in an academic setting, but hey...

YouTube- The eroticization of M2F transsexuals by straight men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v79_9x7JlQ)

~BB~

Personally I don't see why women who are intelligent in academic settings have to dress like nerds (as they usually do). I had this one female professor who wore a pocket protector for crying out loud...

...In 2006!

[SarahG]

No, she's not trying to do that, but she's a woman in an extraordinarily powerful position in the US government, and there's precious few women in influential roles such as that. What you seem to be arguing is that "pretty = better". George Bush was "leader of the free world" for 8 years, and the man could barely express himself without the crowd laughing. Even though he was president, he was looked down upon and frequently mocked because he was a poor public speaker...

..So at the end of the day, for you at least, a 19-year old pretty model with big tits is somehow "better" than say, Hilary Clinton, because the model's more attractive?

There are statesmen and then there are politicians. Madison wrote that "Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." This is an understatement. We haven't had an enlightened statesman at the helm in well over a hundred years, and we pay for that void Every. Single. Day.

There are many things I would bring up in saying that I would not want to use Hillary as a role model. Her haircuts & pantsuits wouldn't even be blips on my radar in that conversation. For that only distracts people from some of the things she has been in favor of in the Senate, things which I find repulsive and unforgivable.

A 19 year old pretty model with big tits probably has one thing going for her that I cannot say of Hillary: She probably has not done much to erode the civil liberties of every day Americans in a world when such liberties are needed the most direly.


There's people and places where you're not acceptable because of your tattoos, because of your work, or social background, or whatever. Is that okay with you? "Acceptable" kind of takes me back to the whole "White" and "Coloured" bathroom or drinking fountain mentality. "Ohhh no, them coloured folks ain't acceptable around these parts".

I take it you're more of a W. E. B. Du Bois fan than a Booker T Washington fan?

[BellaBellucci]

No, she's not trying to do that, but she's a woman in an extraordinarily powerful position in the US government, and there's precious few women in influential roles such as that. What you seem to be arguing is that "pretty = better". George Bush was "leader of the free world" for 8 years, and the man could barely express himself without the crowd laughing. Even though he was president, he was looked down upon and frequently mocked because he was a poor public speaker.

I take issue with your "formerly male" comment also. Do you consider yourself, or any other transwoman "formerly male"? Jennifer Paris is stunningly pretty - are you going to say to her face, or to others that she's "formerly male"?

I NEVER said pretty=better. In fact in bringing up Hilary, I was saying that it isn't. Another great example is Madeline Albright. She looks like Quasimodo. Seriously, she does. But my point is that they don't have to look pretty because they don't need to overcome a stereotype that GG's are 'ugly' or 'freaks' as transpeople do. You read this completely wrong, lady (lol!).

And yes, I would tell a beautiful transwomen to her face that she's formerly male... because she is. We all are. I'm not a huge fan of denial. Of course I would only use that terminology in the context of an appropriate conversation. It's only an insult if used in that manner.


So at the end of the day, for you at least, a 19-year old pretty model with big tits is somehow "better" than say, Hilary Clinton, because the model's more attractive? I hate to break it to you, but not everyone in the world is as shallow, vain and obsessed with appearance as some members of the transsexual "community".

Again, I never said that. The exact word I used was 'balance.' And let's be fair, there are a lot of transwomen obsessed with 'passability,' which is not the same as 'beauty.' I think the former, considering the way our society treats the gender variant, is perfectly acceptable and should even be encouraged IMHO. I'm sorry, but a man in a wig is just that. Just a little effort goes a long way but there are so many 'girls' out there who don't even try. I honestly think a lot of them are just bored and/or looking for attention.


Vanity is a cruel mistress. Looks fade, accomplishments don't. Character matters far more than perky tits, high cheekbones or a big ass. If I have to choose between a less-than-passable TS who's intelligent, well-spoken and charismatic, or some plasticized wannabe, I'll take the former and take my chances that the public will hopefully learn, as with blacks, gays and other former minority/downtrodden groups, to look past appearances and just see people as people.

Agreed. But again, it's about an entire cross-section of attributes. I'm not making a beauty versus brains argument. I'm advocating both.


"The gays" didn't retrain society. "We're here, we're queer, we're not going away" isn't retraining. It's defiance and militance. So in order to be accepted, if you're gay, you have to be "less flamboyant" and "stereotypical"? Tell me, do you find the statement "Man I wish the blacks would just stop being so black and act WHITE like the rest of us?" offensive?

It's not about emulation. It's about showing a willingness to compromise. I don't think the leaders of any of the communities you mention want to fight with the 'moral majority' forever, do you?


People are people. Labelling, classifying, pigeonholing, call it what you want, but there's a desperate need to have an us vs them in most people's minds. People are different and you know what? That's okay.

Also agreed. But again, this isn't about labels. It's about what is and isn't acceptable to the larger majority. I'm not judging here. I'm simply telling everyone what I've experienced as a 'former male,' i.e. heterosexual cisgender. Your offense at my comments about the gay community show that your perspective is closer to theirs than mine. That doesn't make either of us wrong. My intention is to see that all perspectives are considered.


I think that the postops and ultra-passable transwomen who go stealth, who are terrified of their "secret" being discovered, do far more harm than poorly-passing transwomen do to the community. There's no shame in being transgendered, yet we're supposed to have "acceptable" representatives to the world at large before we're taken seriously? Bullshit.

Well yeah, that's the opposite end of the spectrum and I've said that that's wrong too.


There are trans people out there who are in a world of pain specifically because of your poisonous attitude, Bella. This whole "acceptable" nonsense has got to go. There's people and places where you're not acceptable because of your tattoos, because of your work, or social background, or whatever. Is that okay with you? "Acceptable" kind of takes me back to the whole "White" and "Coloured" bathroom or drinking fountain mentality. "Ohhh no, them coloured folks ain't acceptable around these parts".

First of all, it's not my attitude. Like I said, I'm just speaking from the perspective of someone who's been a member of the 'acceptable majority' and I'm telling you that sometimes you have to go along to get along and it's important to choose the right battles.

Secondly, segregation was legally mandated. Not accepted. Mandated. I don't think it's a fair comparison to our situation. We have laws that don't benefit us, but I haven't found too many that specifically target us either.


Grow the fuck up and stop being an assimiliationist. We're all transwomen, just like regular women. We're diverse. Tall, short, fat, skinny, curvy, sticklike, stupid, smart, whatever. Be proud of who you are.

I'm not an assimilationist and I think I've proven repeatedly over the last year that I've been here that I probably have a little too much pride. All I'm saying is that we can't pull people to our side later on down the road until we meet them somewhere in the middle today. That's the nature of compromise, not assimilation... especially considering the plausible argument that biological imperatives and subconscious reading of gender cues will always play a role in how the 'less passable' are seen and how they represent us. And remember, I'm not just talking about looks, but also feelings and behaviors.

I don't think we have to be perfect little angels (not by a LONGSHOT!), but let's put our best foot forward, shall we?

~BB~

[SarahG]

Secondly, segregation was legally mandated. Not accepted. Mandated. I don't think it's a fair comparison to our situation. We have laws that don't benefit us, but I haven't found too many that specifically target us either.

Now if this "trans people are the 3rd gender" stuff gets put into our laws, then we would be segregated into our own "trans" bathrooms, with our own "trans identification papers," and so on.

[BellaBellucci]

Now if this "trans people are the 3rd gender" stuff gets put into our laws, then we would be segregated into our own "trans" bathrooms, with our own "trans identification papers," and so on.

... which is fucking bullshit. However, I think what Tika is saying is that we should be proud of being the third sex. Again it's all a matter of perspective, but from mine, I just want to blend in. I make so many political statements now because I don't want to still be fighting with everyone when I'm 50. Beauty fades, indeed, and although I agree that it shouldn't be the sole basis of our eventual acceptance, I'm sorry, but it's a boon to the cause whether anybody likes it or not.

~BB~

[peggygee]

Ok, I'll see that and raise you one: this thread is a perfect example. Nicole hates you and me, I'm not crazy about Nicole but I'd say that hate is a strong word for my feelings, Sarah and you just love everyone, and yet we all agree on so many things.

So... what are we doing wrong?

~BB~


Good question, hope that I can priovide an answer.

Back in the day, I was a Panther. I was also a follower of Malcolm.

To say that I was militant would be an understatement.

However much like the paradigm shift that Malcolm experenced after his
hajj to Mecca, I too changed my tactics and strategies vis-a-vis civil
rights.

Now that I am older, and times have changed somewhat, I have become
more moderate, I have mellowed, age will do that.

I try to build bridges, not tear them down, I now try to see both sides,
I try to seek the common and middle ground.



http://history.dce.k12.wi.us/mlkj/malcom+x+and+martin+pic.jpg


In answer to your question, "What are we doing wrong"? I feel that
trans-women are often-times are our own worst enemies.

Until we stop the infighting, the cattiness, shadiness, the who is the
prettiest, who has had the most surgery, who has the most designer
wear, the most trade, etc., attempting to get equality in mainstream
society will never occur.

[BellaBellucci]

Until we stop the infighting, the cattiness, shadiness, the who is the
prettiest, who has had the most surgery, who has the most designer
wear, the most trade, etc., attempting to get equality in mainstream
society will never occur.

+1. While I obviously feel that looks play a role here, you're absolutely right that girls should stop competing over it. It comes off almost masculine and is counterproductive to our cause as are the looks and behaviors of those who don't even attempt to pass on the opposite end of the spectrum. Sure, competition is good for self-improvement, but with competition also comes winners and losers, thereby dividing our community. We should each take that energy and focus it inward.

~BB~

[peggygee]

I think that the postops and ultra-passable transwomen who go stealth, who are terrified of their "secret" being discovered, do far more harm than poorly-passing transwomen do to the community. There's no shame in being transgendered, yet we're supposed to have "acceptable" representatives to the world at large before we're taken seriously? Bullshit.




Well yeah, that's the opposite end of the spectrum and I've said that that's wrong too.
~

I am glad that this issue has been raised.

I'm a post op woman, I live stealth. Wouldn't say that I'm terrified of my
trans-status becoming known, but would prefer it wan't and most def
don't advertise it, and do all that I can to prevent it from getting out.
Including in casual sexual encounters not divulging that to my partner.

I've stated it numerous times, I transitioned to be the woman that I felt
that I was born to be, not to forever be transsexual.

Having said that, I of course realize that I have a trans-herstory, and that
is part of who I am. But it just that, my past, and not my present.

For the most part my goals, aspirations, issues are that of any other Black
woman, my gender status plays little to no role in my life.

However, I don't feel that I can in good conscience completely turn my
back on a community that I came from. So I try to do my part via cyber
advocacy and activism, and in any other way that I can, such as helping
legislation get passed, etc..

So you won't see me at your local gay or trans bar, I won't be on 6
o'clock news leading a Pride parade, but I will still be be trying to play a
small part in the cause.

Hope that it suffices. :praying:

[Nicole Dupre]

Good question, hope that I can priovide an answer.

Back in the day, I was a Panther. I was also a follower of Malcolm.

To say that I was militant would be an understatement.

However much like the paradigm shift that Malcolm experenced after his
hajj to Mecca, I too changed my tactics and strategies vis-a-vis civil
rights.

Now that I am older, and times have changed somewhat, I have become
more moderate, I have mellowed, age will do that.

I try to build bridges, not tear them down, I now try to see both sides,
I try to seek the common and middle ground.



http://history.dce.k12.wi.us/mlkj/malcom+x+and+martin+pic.jpg


In answer to your question, "What are we doing wrong"? I feel that
trans-women are often-times are our own worst enemies.



It seems to me that the girls who are the most intimidated by trannys with nice clothing, who are turning heads, and who are sexworkers are the ones don't, aren't, and can't.

Girls who pass every day, who spark a little envy in other women, and who make coins as escorts are far less concerned with the women who work at Micky D's and are nothing to look at than they are with us.

Do we all have to become farmers, soldiers, and social activists to not get our heads chopped off by the more marginalized trannys?


Until we stop the infighting, the cattiness, shadiness, the who is the prettiest, who has had the most surgery, who has the most designer
wear, the most trade, etc., attempting to get equality in mainstream
society will never occur. GGs do all of those things. As a woman, you have the option to be a superficial bimbo if that is indeed what you want from life. Human beings are competitive. It's not just a tranny thing. Should we behave like Muslim extremists, and cover our faces in public? Why can't women flaunt what they have? And why does it always upset the ones who have nothing to flaunt?

[Nicole Dupre]

Be proud of who you are.... as long as it doesn't include looking better than, and therefore intimidating, you. If so, you'll attempt to take the moral high ground and attack us.

[Nicole Dupre]

Tika, you are a malcontent to the core, and a horrible and nasty person. Let's just revue why you were indeed banned from Tgirl Talk, "Viridian".



It's not jealousy and bitterness, it's more annoyance and incredulity. Let's take some specific examples, although this will set off a shitstorm amongst the people named.

Kelly Shore, for one example. The girl looks scary, as far as I'm concerned. She has plastic features that aren't working. Yet she thinks she's God's gift to the world, the guys all fawn over her, and she's basically wandering around in this haze of "Aren't I so very very special?". No, not really, Kelly. Stop posting pictures of yourself. Everyone knows what you look like with your Photoshop filtering applied. Stop going on about your boyfriend, nobody cares. Just try not to be so desperate about wanting attention and sit the hell down.

Jen Justice or whatever the hell her name is. Another case of "I'm too fabulous for words". I mean seriously, that nose needs major clipping back honey, it's enormous. "Oh I posted pics of me without makeup, let's see anyone else here do that." One word: Rhinoplasty.

Wendy Williams. She looks like a corpse pulled out of a river, bloated and puffy. That's a porn star? Please. I have to keep my food down every time a picture of her floats by.

Alannah Starr. Her lips look like a babboon's ass in heat and those sagging, stretch-marked breasts are awful to behold. But hey, "I throw parties all the time and shake my tits, everyone must love me!" How she's that popular is beyond me.

Joanna Jet. AWFUL HAIR. Seriously, it always struck me as ultra-bleached blonde straw. Unflattering, horrible texture, scraggly-looking.

I could go on but it's pointless... I hold no ilusions that I'm stunning or anything close to that. I have a decent smile and nice eyes. That's about it as far as I'm concerned. I get told by others that I'm attractive, but I just think "Meh, thanks, that and a buck gets me a donut."

This topic is not about arrogance over one's appearance in general. It's about being unrealistic about self-assessment, or shamelessly promoting ones self in defiance of common sense. It's about being amazingly popular and/or well-off when there's just no reason for it.

Looks wither. Breasts sag. Tattoos fade. All the silicone pumped into someone's face will eventually run, maybe cause nerve damage and probably require corrective surgery to remove and repair. Looks never discovered the crystalline structure of DNA, or invented the internet. No porn star has ever changed the world, but Beethoven, Einstein, Newton - their works will live on for ages.

How about instead of being obsessed with looks, we pay a little more attention to brains and education? How about instead of blowing $20K or so on facial feminization surgery, spend it on some training courses to get a better job that's NOT porn-related?

You know who I respect here? Ecstatic and Maggie, for being freakishly smart and/or wise. THEY make a difference in the world. Allt he posts *I* make, the attempts at insight or critical analysis, I like to think I'm trying to make a difference as well. Does anyone care? I don't really know. Everyone loves to paint me as angry, bitter, jealous, whatever. Have fun with that, really. People's opinions of me don't pay my bills or put food in my cupboards.

But... if I had big tits, I'd probably get more people to listen to me, I suppose

[SarahG]

Tika, you are a malcontent to the core, and a horrible and nasty person. Let's just revue why you were indeed banned from Tgirl Talk, "Viridian".

I don't get it. "I'm for trans issues, so I am going to rip into the appearance of a few girls knowing that can be triggering."

http://i41.tinypic.com/2lnemu1.jpg

[Nicole Dupre]

I don't get it. "I'm for trans issues, so I am going to rip into the appearance of a few girls knowing that can be triggering."

http://i41.tinypic.com/2lnemu1.jpg

That's the tip of the iceberg with her. She also attacked Vicki Richter, Mandy M, and myself. But, long story short, she got her snotty brick ass banned because of her "convictions".

"Maggie" btw is Peggy.

[BellaBellucci]

... as long as it doesn't include looking better than, and therefore intimidating, you. If so, you'll attempt to take the moral high ground and attack us.

Wait. Hold up. Be fair. She did post this:


I could go on but it's pointless... I hold no ilusions that I'm stunning or anything close to that. I have a decent smile and nice eyes. That's about it as far as I'm concerned. I get told by others that I'm attractive, but I just think "Meh, thanks, that and a buck gets me a donut.

And agree with them or not, her criticisms of models (and names weren't really necessary, were they Tika?) weren't originated by her. They're a matter of opinion that has been shared by many fans.

Transwomens' propensity for overdoing surgery is very much a topic of conversation that we need to have as a 'community' because it reflects just as poorly on us as those who don't even attempt to pass. I don't agree with Tika's tone, but it's hard to argue against her logic.

~BB~

PS: Don't front either. You rip bitches all the time! :lol:

[Nicole Dupre]

What do you think inspired that "logic"? Finding dates? lol

What she's oblivious to is her shit attitude. That's the first thing she could change, and it would be a lot less expensive than a tit job.

She isn't exactly someone who threw away a modelling career to join the Peace Corps.

But by all means, see if you can get access to the "powder room" on TGTalk, and read all the posts by Viridian. That should flesh out her "logic" for you. ;)

[SarahG]

Wait. Hold up. Be fair. She did post this:



And agree with them or not, her criticisms of models (and names weren't really necessary, were they Tika?) weren't originated by her. They're a matter of opinion that has been shared by many fans.

Transwomens' propensity for overdoing surgery is very much a topic of conversation that we need to have as a 'community' because it reflects just as poorly on us as those who don't even attempt to pass. I don't agree with Tika's tone, but it's hard to argue against her logic.

~BB~

PS: Don't front either. You rip bitches all the time! :lol:

There's a huge difference between saying some people are "over pumped" or "over surged"... and taking specific individuals, and then talking about specific traits.

That's like picking a late life transitioner, by name, and going on about their hands, their frame, or their hairline. That's just not right.

We can all raise the bar a little bit further than that, can't we?

[Nicole Dupre]

I rip no one who isn't asking to be ripped. Sure, if someone crawls up my ass, I may have them contemplating putting a gun in their mouth. I can be a tad sadistic. I'll give you that. I never said that I was a "turn the other cheek" tranny. lol

But, c'mon. If this isn't the sour grapes-turns-commie manifesto, I don't know what is. lol

[BellaBellucci]

What do you think inspired that "logic"? Finding dates? lol

What she's oblivious to is her shit attitude. That's the first thing she could change, and it would be a lot less expensive than a tit job.

She isn't exactly someone who threw away a modelling career to join the Peace Corps.

But by all means, see if you can get access to the "powder room" on TGTalk, and read all the posts by Viridian. That should flesh out her "logic" for you. ;)

Agreed. But being petty doesn't necessarily make one wrong. I think we all need to stop rejecting valid opinions just because we don't like the people who state them.

It seems you have a history with her, so I'll let you do your thing and try to stay out of it, but I have a tendency to play devil's advocate because every so often the devil is right.

I think you're shooting down the message, even if I also happen to agree that the messenger probably deserves it.

~BB~

[Nicole Dupre]

And Bella, people could easily say that you or I have a propensity to "overdo" tattoos. But who's business would it be? Tika's? Anyones?

There are people say that post-ops "ruined" their bodies too. Them, Tika, the Right to Lifers, and anyone else who wants to pontificate should really go fuck themselves. I have no problems getting dates or making friends (well, maybe on tranny porn forums,the friends thing has not always gone over so well but... lol). The point is, I can live with myself and I'm content.

Does Tika sound like a happy camper? lol

[Nicole Dupre]

No. I'm shooting anyone who places their "message" on their shoulder like a chip.

[BellaBellucci]

There's a huge difference between saying some people are "over pumped" or "over surged"... and taking specific individuals, and then talking about specific traits.

That's like picking a late life transitioner, by name, and going on about their hands, their frame, or their hairline. That's just not right.

We can all raise the bar a little bit further than that, can't we?

I agree that Tika's comments are unjustified in their specificity even if I've never been one to sugar coat my blanket statements on girls who go too far, but the warnings against both pumping and oversurging are PLENTIFUL among transwomen yet so many do it anyway. When I said I entertain all opinions and perspectives, I wasn't joking. I always analyze the legitimacy of any statement, even if it comes from someone as bitter as Tika.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

And Bella, people could easily say that you or I have a propensity to "overdo" tattoos. But who's business would it be? Tika's? Anyones?

There are people say that post-ops "ruined" their bodies too. Them, Tika, the Right to Lifers, and anyone else who wants to pontificate should really go fuck themselves. I have no problems getting dates or making friends (well, maybe on tranny porn forums,the friends thing has not always gone over so well but... lol). The point is, I can live with myself and I'm content.

Does Tika sound like a happy camper? lol

No, you're right. She doesn't. :geek:

And you're also right that it's nobody else's business... until a girl holds herself out as a 'leader' or 'representative.' Then she's asking to be judged.

~BB~

[SunshyneMonroe]

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[Helvis2012]

Naturally........