Vatican Cardinal on Gays and Transsexuals: 'No Heaven...'

[BeardedOne]

Vatican Cardinal on Gays and Transsexuals: 'No Heaven for You!'

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, a Mexican cardinal who this year retired as the Vatican's chief spokesman on health care issues, including AIDS, has given a pointed interview to a Rome magazine in which he says that homosexuals and transgendered people will not go to heaven, and he cites Saint Paul by way of backup.

In the interview with the aptly named magazine Pontifex, Barragan begins by talking about abortion, saying that even the morning-after pill, as an abortifacient, is comparable to "an assassination." Each abortion, he says, "is a crime" and as such "merits punishment."

The interviewer then asks the cardinal how he views homosexuality and transgendered people. Here's my translation of his answers:

A: "Transsexuals and homosexuals will not enter into the Kingdom of God, and I do not say this, but Saint Paul does."

Q: But if a person is born homosexual?

A: "One is not born a homosexual. One becomes a homosexual. It is for various reasons, such as education, or for not developing one's own proper identity in adolescence; perhaps they are themselves not responsible, but acting against the dignity of the human body, certainly they will not enter Heaven. All that goes against nature and against the dignity of the human body offends God."

The cardinal adds:

"Homosexuality is therefore a sin, but this does not justify any form of discrimination. God alone has the right to judge...We on earth cannot condemn, and as human beings we all have the same rights."

Barragan's citation of the the Apostle refers to the first chapter of Saint Paul's Letter to the Romans, in which Paul praises the Christians there for their faith and castigates those who have rejected God. As Paul says, the "invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity" have been obvious since the dawn of creation, and anyone who does not see them is being willfully rebellious -- as is evidenced by their behavior:

"Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another," Paul writes. "Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity."

Also due for a divine comeuppance, Paul says, are those whose rejection of God leads them to be "filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite."

"They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless."

Whether such folks are born that way or are later filled with insolence and heartlessness, neither Paul nor Barragan say.

Catholic leaders in Rome, and a few in the United States, have been wary of accepting scientific research showing that homosexuality could be biologically determined to a great degree. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says only that its "psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" and says homosexuality is "objectively disordered" and can never be approved. It calls on homosexuals to live chaste lives.

In a sign that the Vatican prefers to take a more nuanced approach to homosexuality, a papal spokesman told Reuters that Pontifex should not be considered an authority on Catholic thinking "on complex and delicate issues such as homosexuality."



*****

This from a man that wears a red dress and works in a community notorious for porking altar boys.

[praetor]

Gay goes to hell, and Pedophile goes to Vatican?

[2009AD]

This from a man that wears a red dress and works in a community notorious for porking altar boys.

I guess gays, lesbians and tgs who actually believe in heaven are in deep shit.

Heaven, God, unicorns, the Devil, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Loch Ness monster, Xenu, Moroni... Heavy superstition....

[BeardedOne]

Gay goes to hell, and Pedophile goes to Vatican?

Exactly. It's not who you blow, but who you know.

[Coroner]

What do you expect from a cleric? He follows the bible and the bible is homophobic, irrational and hateful. The belief in some deity is pure ignorance and completely against reason. Liberal Christians who criticize these clerics are still their apologists which is hypocritical imo.

[Jericho]

Who cares what they say?
Boy fucking bastards, the lot of 'em! :shrug

[alpha2117]

Two words for you "HITLER YOUTH" organisataion that elects a former Nazi as their leader and then pretends to care about morality is clearly corrupt to it's core.

[rockabilly]

Wow , Heaven must be one Hell of a club to get into.

Distract Saint Peter and we can enter through the back door.

[SXFX]

Heaven....big freaking deal!
Name one cool person in heaven!
Elvis? NO!
The Stone? NO!

[droog]

The interviewer then asks the cardinal how he views homosexuality and transgendered people. Here's my translation of his answers:

A: "Transsexuals and homosexuals will not enter into the Kingdom of God, and I do not say this, but Saint Paul does."
i was under the impression that all humans were created equally. but if that impression is wrong, [according to this asshole] i guess everyone on this forum is fucked. but not like i, or i'm sure any of you, give a shit. not like we're gonna change how we're livin. just sounds to me like "the cardinal" in this article is actually the real evil, and he is using the ideology of the church to spread fear among people who just want to chill and enjoy their lives.

[Dino Velvet]

I don't know why anyone is surprised by this at all. I went to Catholic School through senior year of high school. We were always taught that gays would not go to heaven. It's not just the Cardinal, it's the religion. Pedophile priests roast in Hell too. The Vatican doesn't decide who goes to Heaven, God does. I never understood why gays or TSs bothered going to Mass. I'm also damned just for being in a forum like this. I'm no one to judge as I'm not a "Good Catholic" either.

[SarahG]

The interviewer then asks the cardinal how he views homosexuality and transgendered people. Here's my translation of his answers:

A: "Transsexuals and homosexuals will not enter into the Kingdom of God, and I do not say this, but Saint Paul does."
i was under the impression that all humans were created equally. but if that impression is wrong, [according to this asshole] i guess everyone on this forum is fucked. but not like i, or i'm sure any of you, give a shit. not like we're gonna change how we're livin. just sounds to me like "the cardinal" in this article is actually the real evil, and he is using the ideology of the church to spread fear among people who just want to chill and enjoy their lives.

Created equally yes... only regarding certain things. Humans are equal, as humans, towards each other. They are not equal to each other.

In the religious context, someone who sins still has to be held accountable for those sins (i.e. confession for catholics) whether the person is a serf or a king. But a king and a serf are not equal to each other, socially or physically. People are not equals to each other, some people are born disabled, some people are born disfigured, some people are born as geniuses. There is no such thing as a blank slate from which everyone is identical but everyone has to follow the same religious rules, and consequences.

In the secular context, everyone is equal towards each other insofar as inalienable rights go. People are not equal to each other, in that some people will be smarter or dumber, some people may be athletic where others are paralyzed, but no one is superior to another in terms of civil liberties. Someone can't go around killing people just because they're superior mentally or physically.

The problem is this issue of culpability (free will versus nature). Religions are ancient and predate the knowledge of mental illness, developmental problems, and so on. If a crazy person hurts someone in the classical era, they would have been viewed as a sinner and punished for it. Today we know a crazy person isn't crazy by choice, thus are not culpable for their actions. The problem for the church, and not the secular context, as this trying to balance the issue of culpability. If they are too selective in when someone is seen as inculpable, then everyone who is crazy ends up in "hell" despite the realities that we now know regarding madness. If they are too sweeping in determining when someone is seen as inculpable, then there is no point in having hell because no one would be at fault to go there because everyone would be seen as naturally excused (on account of madness or environmental influences).

Religion used to get its authority by this concept of punishment. "If you don't do as we say you burn forever and ever and ever in hell!" As science shows people to be the products of certain realities rather than free will, then religions are faced with having to let everyone into heaven, and if that happens, then why have religion at all?

In the case of homosexuality, if someone is gay by DNA, or gay by environmental influences (socialization) in both cases the person is gay not due to free will, but because of forces they have neither awareness over, or control over. So the church has to deal with that, and the best they've been able to do is "don't be gay, if you are gay, don't have gay thoughts or do gay things, if you do have gay thoughts or gay things, go to hell." (yes that is an intentional play on the "don't get sick" speech).

Secularly none of this matters because everything is about damage control. If someone is sane and hurts someone, or is insane and hurts someone- that has to be dealt with either way. So if science can show the person did not do a crime by free will, they go to a mental ward where they won't be able to hurt anyone else. If science cannot explain it they go to prison so they cannot hurt anyone else. The objective is (in theory) to protect people by keeping dangerous people off the streets, not some debate over what may or may not happen after death.

[BrassVillanueva]

All in all, it just makes me glad I'm a Protestant. The Catholics can have fun trying to catch up to last century.

[alyssats]

Most priest,cardinals are Gay and worst most are even Pedophile

[Ecstatic]

All these 'holier than thou' fools seem to always skip over the parts of their Holy Bible where Jesus says stuff like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye?"

Or the classic, "Judge not, lest you be so judged."

[rockabilly]

Amen Ecstatic.

[yodajazz]

All these 'holier than thou' fools seem to always skip over the parts of their Holy Bible where Jesus says stuff like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye?"

Or the classic, "Judge not, lest you be so judged."
I agree, Ecstatic. Here's my views:

I have two major points: First, as far as ‘sin’ is concerned, there is plenty of it to go around, and it’s a lot more than just sex, for those that believe in the concept. I call your attention to the “seven deadly sins”. The most important sin of the moment is Greed. This is the cause of the current world financial crisis, letting greed go unchecked. How many people have been hurt by this? In fact if you look at Jesus, his most extreme act of violence was to throw the money changers out of the temple. And yet the Vatican has a world class bank. And where are they in speaking out about the financial fraud that has hurt us all, much more than a gay sex.

One more sin I will bring up is gluttony. We have a nation with more overweight people than ever, with attending health problems. It’s a sin, so to speak.

My second point is more important. That is branches Christianity are emerging that are dropping the concept of ‘sin.’ This newer Christianity is growing, while the other is dying. Basically, the newer approach involves meeting people’s daily spiritual needs. It help them lead more happy and productive lives. For example, it teaches that the Bible concept of forgiveness, is actually letting go of the stress that someone else’s actions has placed upon you. And stress is the number one killer. The new Christianity empowers people to know that their thoughts and actions have a power behind them. The concept of ‘sin’, has made people feel guilty, which so often produces more negative feelings. There is reason why there are so many Catholic Churches closing in our area, while others are booming.

I agree with others in this thread who discussed, the idea that being born with a condition, certainly raises the question of choice. Jesus himself, brought up the issue in his discussion on eunuchs. He said, ‘some are born that way, and others are made that way by men’. And he did not condemn them. He said that those who understand should ‘accept it’. So who is the higher authority on this? Like all other things certain types of morality evolve through time, while others remain constant. Greed has been ignored and even encouraged. It hurts others by definition. Religions are thriving by refocusing on what is important to our daily lives. It’s not just about sex.

[Dino Velvet]

Most priest,cardinals are Gay and worst most are even Pedophile

I love you Alyssa but that's not true at all.

There are a few priests that are pedophiles. The horrible way the Catholic Church has been handling this makes it appear there are many more. The Church should want to set the example and clean their own house. Until then, they have a hard time taking the moral ground on anything. If Jesus would come down to earth, many of the hierarchy would be running for the hills.

I've known many good priests that I have no reason to believe are either gay or pedophiles. It's not fair for them to be perceived as that unless other forms of prejudice is acceptable.

I was born and raised Catholic. Even though I have strayed from the Church I still want them to be better and clean up their act.

[hippifried]

This from a man that wears a red dress and works in a community notorious for porking altar boys.

I guess gays, lesbians and tgs who actually believe in heaven are in deep shit.

Heaven, God, unicorns, the Devil, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Loch Ness monster, Xenu, Moroni... Heavy superstition....
Hey! Don't go disparaging the Easter Bunny!!


BrassVillanueva wrote:
All in all, it just makes me glad I'm a Protestant. The Catholics can have fun trying to catch up to last century.
Yeah, the protestants just want to kill you now.

[rameses2]

Would you really want to be in Heaven with a bunch of narrow-minded, closeted, hypocrites anyway? Hell is where the Par-Tay is gonna be anyway!

[loren]

The Vatican doesn't decide who goes to Heaven, God does.
exactly :claps

Wow , Heaven must be one Hell of a club to get into.

Distract Saint Peter and we can enter through the back door.
That's not the only thing going in the back door. :oops: :roll: :lol:

[rockabilly]

Promises promises Loren. :D

[loren]

:oops: :wink: :D

[russtafa]

these rules were made by bitter old men who put their ideas of religion and the way people should act into the bible

[SarahG]

these rules were made by bitter old men who put their ideas of religion and the way people should act into the bible

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=conservative+bible+project&ei=UTF-8

[NjTranceAddict]

What an absolute fucking JOKE. Does anyone with half a brain and some common sense really listen to the damn church any more? It's 2009. I mean, believe in what you want to because I won't judge you for that, but to take anything any church says seriously nowadays is simply foolish.

[Odelay]

Vatican Cardinal on Gays and Transsexuals: 'No Heaven for You!'

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, a Mexican cardinal who this year retired as the Vatican's chief spokesman on health care issues, including AIDS, has given a pointed interview to a Rome magazine in which he says that homosexuals and transgendered people will not go to heaven, and he cites Saint Paul by way of backup.

LMAO!

Have you ever read Saint Paul's love letters to his acolyte Timothy? The passages are right there in epistles. Whether Paul was in the closet or a flaming outie, makes no difference. The guy was as queer as a 3 dollar bill.

Excellent, excellent source for disapproving of homosexuality!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[alyssats]

I came from a country that is like 98% Catholic

When i was in grade school many of my classmates do assistant work in the church, we call them here Sakristan/Sacristan/Sexton. Around 6,7,8,9-12 years old. They always talk about the different priest who suck their cock whenever they do assistant work in the church lol.

And when i was in high school we have this religion class once in a week. A pastor visit in our room and after the class its a mandatory that 2 boys and no girls will go out with him have lunch together, its his own rule. Me being a ladyboy and other ladyboy best friend of mine werent able to be part of it since the pastor like straight boys only. My male classmate always laugh at each other usually saying how good that pastor is in sucking their cock. They said the pastor usually suck their cock inside his car or in restaurant toilet cubicle.

I also had some missionary client who visit the Philippines often, they said to me almost all priest in my country are Gay lol