Sounds good on the outside (Heathcare passed the House)

[IGY]

Just a quick meander from the lovely ladies of this forum. Though the House Healthcare Bill which just passed sounds good in bold type, the fine print implications are potentially dire. Granted, trying to predict anything in politics/economics is like Chaos Theory, outcomes are unpredictable. But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?

[bubspeedy]

this guy and his uncontrolled spending is going to ruin us

[SarahG]

Just a quick meander from the lovely ladies of this forum. Though the House Healthcare Bill which just passed sounds good in bold type, the fine print implications are potentially dire. Granted, trying to predict anything in politics/economics is like Chaos Theory, outcomes are unpredictable. But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?

The plan included the Stupak amendment

Suffice to say, our congress just took access to abortions away from millions of Americans.

As things work today, abortions and similar treatments are almost always paid for in the US by private insurance. The Stupak amendment essentially stripped all plans offered by the exchange from covering abortions... including the private policies. This will be the only affordable way to get health insurance for most Americans once put into effect.

I hate to say, "I told you so", but, I told you so.

And now that we've set a prescient where our congress can take away peoples access to health care based on so-called morality views, mark my words trans health care is next, as well as certain kinds of contraceptives. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow- but its inevitable.

But what do I know?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/07/house-health-care-vote-br_n_349468.html

[loren]

But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?When Congress spends money they don't have it's called deficite spending; but if I do it, it's called fraud. :shrug

[SarahG]

But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?When Congress spends money they don't have it's called deficite spending; but if I do it, it's called fraud.

When you do it, it's called a loan. Most people when they buy cars or houses don't have the cash to pay in full.

[IGY]

I believe this behemoth of a bill contains the public option. And since the government has done so well administering other federal programs....social security-oops, bankrupt; post office-oops, bankrupt; medicare.....you get the idea. I am sure this one will go off without a hitch.

[SarahG]

I believe this behemoth of a bill contains the public option.

It did contain a public option that included abortion, until the democrats let their antiabortionist colleagues add the aforementioned amendment.

[JerseyMike]

Getting rid of abortion is bad because I hate children but then again 50 million abortions have been done since Roe V Wade and that is just alot of dead shrimp babies aka fetuses.

[Realgirls4me]

Just a quick meander from the lovely ladies of this forum. Though the House Healthcare Bill which just passed sounds good in bold type, the fine print implications are potentially dire. Granted, trying to predict anything in politics/economics is like Chaos Theory, outcomes are unpredictable. But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?

Ignoring a problem that is unsustainable and will end up costing more down the road also does not make sense. Did you also feel this way when Bush added trillions to the debt, or do you just intuitively expect more from Democrats?

[IGY]

Ignoring a problem that is unsustainable and will end up costing more down the road also does not make sense. Did you also feel this way when Bush added trillions to the debt, or do you just intuitively expect more from Democrats?[/quote]


Am I pegged as right wing because I don't like legislation that even the Wall Street Journal called, "The Worst Bill Ever."? Or was your question sincere?

[FREEFALLL666]

Ignoring a problem that is unsustainable and will end up costing more down the road also does not make sense. Did you also feel this way when Bush added trillions to the debt, or do you just intuitively expect more from Democrats?


Am I pegged as right wing because I don't like legislation that even the Wall Street Journal called, "The Worst Bill Ever."? Or was your question sincere?[/quote]Err your press said that this bill based on our NHS would have "Death Boards". I couldnt care less about the accuracy of US press about this bill..

Abortions denied to millions? Well if you can afford an abortion you can afford Condoms or to fucking keep your legs crossed. Boo hoo.. Big loss.

[BellaBellucci]

http://standupforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/obama-socialism.jpg

~BB~

[pantybulge69]

so very good that's it's passed. still a lot to do but this was one
huge step and movement for America.

most powerful country in the entire world now (and finally) has universal
healthcare for americans, after generations and generations, decades
and decades, promises after promises, polictical partisans after
partisans, and presidents after presidents, it's finally been done, despite
the lobbyists, scare tactics, special interest groups, and even private
insurers mounting millions of dollars to try to halt this movement.while we still have those that insist Obama is "trying to do too much, too
soon" , no US president in our lifetime has fought as hard and strenuous while having to go through so much opposition, we finally have a president who kept fighting hard and never let up
in helping deliver healthcare reform, we finally have someone in office who didnt just promise healthcare ..and then sweep it under the rug until
the next election campaign. No one president in our history has fought
as hard while going thru so much obstacles and opposition in trying to
get healthcare.
Change we can believe in , ...yes we can !!

[fred41]

so very good that's it's passed. still a lot to do but this was one
huge step and movement for America.

most powerful country in the entire world now (and finally) has universal
healthcare for americans, after generations and generations, decades
and decades, promises after promises, polictical partisans after
partisans, and presidents after presidents, it's finally been done, despite
the lobbyists, scare tactics, special interest groups, and even private
insurers mounting millions of dollars to try to halt this movement.while we still have those that insist Obama is "trying to do too much, too
soon" , no US president in our lifetime has fought as hard and strenuous while having to go through so much opposition, we finally have a president who kept fighting hard and never let up
in helping deliver healthcare reform, we finally have someone in office who didnt just promise healthcare ..and then sweep it under the rug until
the next election campaign. No one president in our history has fought
as hard while going thru so much obstacles and opposition in trying to
get healthcare.
Change we can believe in , ...yes we can !!

The democratic party owns both houses and the president....do you really believe this was the hardest battle ever?? ..get some perspective.

[archineer]

All I can say is well done. You'll still have the most expensive system in the world no doubt.

[Realgirls4me]

Am I pegged as right wing because I don't like legislation that even the Wall Street Journal called, "The Worst Bill Ever."? Or was your question sincere?

My question was legit/sincere. Your concern initially was the cost of health care reform in light of the current economic malaise this country is experiencing today, and then you move on to quote The Wall Street Journal to bolster your position, a conservative publication rarely in line with anything left-wing or Democrat, and owned by none other than Rupert Murdoch.
If you want to bash the cost of any federal program, fine. I have no problem with that. If you, however, are only scolding the costs of programs supported by Democrats while ignoring how Dubya or Reagan broke the treasury and the economic legacy they left, then yeah, I would sense you were right-wing, thus coming at all this through a highly partisan stance. ...So clear it up for me?

[IGY]

Am I pegged as right wing because I don't like legislation that even the Wall Street Journal called, "The Worst Bill Ever."? Or was your question sincere?

My question was legit/sincere. Your concern initially was the cost of health care reform in light of the current economic malaise this country is experiencing today, and then you move on to quote The Wall Street Journal to bolster your position, a conservative publication rarely in line with anything left-wing or Democrat, and owned by none other than Rupert Murdoch.
If you want to bash the cost of any federal program, fine. I have no problem with that. If you, however, are only scolding the costs of programs supported by Democrats while ignoring how Dubya or Reagan broke the treasury and the economic legacy they left, then yeah, I would sense you were right-wing, thus coming at all this through a highly partisan stance. ...So clear it up for me?Thanks for your reply. For whatever it's worth I am an equal opportunity basher when it comes to, what I feel is, wreckless spending. In my lifetime I've yet to see any administration make a sincere effort, not a political jesture nor robbing Peter to pay Paul, towards fiscal responsibility. And I count initiating wars in countries where there's little chance of facilitating lasting change, in the same ballpark. We need to get out of Afghanistan.

[SarahG]

Abortions denied to millions? Well if you can afford an abortion you can afford Condoms or to fucking keep your legs crossed. Boo hoo.. Big loss.

Yea that's ri... oh wait, some people who get abortions are rape victims. :roll: Not everyone who gets an abortion is a slut.

However this is just a footnote, the bigger problem is that we're letting the government decide what medical treatments we should have easy access to. Do you want to be the one deciding your medical care, or do you want DC doing it?

I can't think of any world where the later would be a good scenario. They can't do anything right. Letting them decide coverage is a big fucking disaster.

[beandip]

Yea, sounds great. I especially like the part where you go to jail if you do not contribute. This is a "living tax". Another kewl aspect is that this tax goes into the general fund.


"PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail
JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail
Friday, November 06, 2009


Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.”

Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below:

“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]

- - - - - - - - - -

“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]

- - - - - - - - - -


“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]

When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail.

Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare,” said Camp.

According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016."

[GroobySteven]

It still beggars belief that there are American's against public healthcare ... bunch of fucking morons.

[Cuchulain]

It still beggars belief that there are American's against public healthcare ... bunch of fucking morons.

Well said, sir! Bravo!

[Faldur]

This sums it up pretty well……..


If a conservative doesn’t like guns, he doesnt buy one.
If a liberal doesn't like guns, he feels that no one should have one.


If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn`t eat meat..
If a liberal is, he wants to ban all meat products for everyone.


If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat his enemy.
A liberal wonders how to surrender gracefully and still look good.


If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a liberal is homosexual, he loudly demands legislated respect.


If a black man or Hispanic are conservative, they see themselves as independently successful.
Their liberal counterparts see themselves as victims in need of government protection.


If a conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
A liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.


If a conservative doesn’t like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Liberals demand that those they don’t like be shut down.


If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn’t go to church.
A liberal non-believer wants any mention of God or religion silenced.


If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A liberal demands that the rest of us pay for his.

[GroobySteven]

This sums it up pretty well……..


If a conservative doesn’t like guns, he doesnt care that others die needlessly and live in some of the most violent places in the world.
If a liberal doesn't like guns, he feels that no one should have one.


If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn`t eat meat but continues to support the fast food industry and farming that is killing people's health ... cos he's still making money!!!
If a liberal is, he wants to ban all meat products for everyone.


If a conservative sees a foreigner, he think's he's a threat and fails to understand anybody else's point of view. He's still making money if our soldiers die needlessly.
A liberal wonders how to engage and come to a peaceful solution.


If a conservative is homosexual, he stays in the closet, is married and tries to make homosexuality illegal while fucking rentboys.
If a liberal is homosexual, he loudly demands legislated respect.


If a black man or Hispanic are conservative, they see themselves as independently successful. There were African slavedrivers after all.
Their liberal counterparts try to work in community programs to better their communities and bring education up.


If a conservative is down-and-out, his stocks have dropped 50%
A liberal is down and out, because the corporate shareholders kicked him off his farm.


If a conservative doesn’t like a talk show host, he has him thrown off the channel.
Liberals demand that those they don’t like keep their hands off the kill switch and enter a discussion.


If a conservative is a believer, he forces the will of God onto all including the country he's president of.
A liberal non-believer wants religion to be kept out of politics


If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A liberal demands that healthcare should be given to those who can afford it and not just to make money for the insurance companies elite.


YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT!!!

[notdrunk]

Lets make this simple...

Conservatives and liberals are fucktards.

[Faldur]

YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT!!!

Damn! Poignant rebuttal...

[SarahG]

It still beggars belief that there are American's against public healthcare ... bunch of fucking morons.

Handing coverage control over to anyone who happens to have control of congress isn't what I would regard as a comforting change.

In a place like the UK where religious extremists have less political power, I would agree wholly with the concept of universal health care.

But in the United States where birthcontrol, contraceptives, abortions, transitioning are all seen as sinful crimes against nature that must be curtailed, and std's being seen as a divine punishment for sin that should not be treated or cured, things are a bit different.

[tg4me]

I'm for health car. But any bill that ignores the tort reform, malpractice insurance and the "let's sue them" mentallity we have in our country, is not going to work.
Our Litigious culture is choking everything in this country from healthcare to manufacturing.
Neither party brings it up. How many of them are lawyers?

[SarahG]

I'm for health car. But any bill that ignores the tort reform, malpractice insurance and the "let's sue them" mentallity we have in our country, is not going to work.
Our Litigious culture is choking everything in this country from healthcare to manufacturing.
Neither party brings it up. How many of them are lawyers?

Tort reform is a bandaid solution. When people are legitimately fucked over by doctors, they need recourse. There have been simply too many people who woke up having the wrong limb amputated, the noncancerous breast removed instead of the cancerous one, or having surgical tools left inside them to simply say "well, because so many people are suing we should cap your award at 200 grand."

The reason why health care is so expensive is because our society thinks people should be able to retire and live their last 20-40 years without an income, supported by the rest of society. Those medical costs have to be provided for somehow, all those seniors living for decades in assisted living while taking dozens of pills a day are not cheap. That's why health care is over burdened, and that's why social security is over burdened.

The original concept of retirement was to work until the point of life expectancy, not to have a perpetual vacation starting in your 50s or early 60s.

[lisaparadise]

Just a quick meander from the lovely ladies of this forum. Though the House Healthcare Bill which just passed sounds good in bold type, the fine print implications are potentially dire. Granted, trying to predict anything in politics/economics is like Chaos Theory, outcomes are unpredictable. But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?Listen most of you americans are somewhat smart but the majority of you are dumber then shit sorry its the truth get over it.your the only non 3rd world country who has no health care system and the nutjob republicans knock the canadian system when they know didly squat about it go figure its high time you people start educating yourselves and quit listening to talk radio and open a book how freakin hard is that,the shawn hannitty-rush limbachs of the worlds represent you and you wonder why the rest of the world laughs at you people how sad.

[trish]

Well, I'm voting for a perpetual vacation. It's in my own best interests after all.

[tg4me]

While I don't consider Tort reform to be a single solution, I think it's a bigger piece of pie than you deem it. For every wrong leg cut off and other true horrors like that, there are more that are just looking for a way to cash in. You don't think there are more abuses in this country than the cases of negligence? I have no problem giving millions where it it due. I have no problem giving wrongly incarcerated a comfortable life. But on a daily basis you see silliness like don't inhale or drink lacquer thinner or deoderant. Stickers on side view mirrors... you know the ones. All there to fight nuisance lawsuits. It's more than health care. We practice defensive medicine more than ever. I didn't make up the phrase Litigious Culture. I'm not that smart. Combine that with no self-responsibility aspect and a large % of older people living longer....
If we address this piece of pie and the exact points you brought up as well, it will be a better bill. But to COMPLETELY ignore that on a comprehensive reform bill looking for ways to cut cost ? I'm not that dumb either. They stood on the podium and said it. We are not taking on the lawyers.
I wonder what's going to happen when we can keep someone alive forever!

[Dino Velvet]

Listen most of you americans are somewhat smart but the majority of you are dumber then shit.

How can most of us be somewhat smart but the majority of us be dumber then shit? Is that mathematically possible? Lisa, you're a nice looking broad and all but I like you better when you're showing off your funhole.

[lisaparadise]

Listen most of you americans are somewhat smart but the majority of you are dumber then shit.

How can most of us be somewhat smart but the majority of us be dumber then shit? Is that mathematically possible? Lisa, you're a nice looking broad and all but I like you better when you're showing off your funhole.lol,your a doll dino im stressing my point silly lol just pass the freakin health care bill so i can watch real stuff on cnn instead of all this craziness lol sorry hun

[trish]

Even according to studies run by conservative institutes tort reform would only make a 1% decrease in the cost of health care. Now I’m willing to nickel and dime our way to a more efficient system, but I do think we need to be very careful with tort reform. The argument for it goes something like this: to avoid possible litigation doctors order tests which they deem unnecessary. The unnecessary tests drive up the cost of healthcare. True enough, the cost of testing way outweighs the cost of actual litigation and penalties. So suppose your doctor thinks you have disease A and not B. If it weren’t for the threat of litigation, he’d risk your health on this assessment. However, because of the threat of litigation, he’s not willing to risk his financial well being on the assessment. That’s kind of an odd risk/benefit analysis, don’t you think? Perhaps the threat of litigation is serving a purpose here. One that safeguards the life and heath of the patient.

[rambo3]

Just a quick meander from the lovely ladies of this forum. Though the House Healthcare Bill which just passed sounds good in bold type, the fine print implications are potentially dire. Granted, trying to predict anything in politics/economics is like Chaos Theory, outcomes are unpredictable. But does a trillion dollar program when the deficit is exploding make sense?

My question to you is, Does a trillion dollars War make any sense to you?, Why is that any time money is spent on fellow Americans, all the conservatives get a fit?. Why is that conservatives never oppose any war at any time for any reason?. CONSERVATIVES = SCUMBAGS.

[notdrunk]

My question to you is, Does a trillion dollars War make any sense to you?, Why is that any time money is spent on fellow Americans, all the conservatives get a fit?. Why is that conservatives never oppose any war at any time for any reason?. CONSERVATIVES = SCUMBAGS.

War is a function of the state. It is clearly in the Constitution; therefore, it is acceptable. I do not think Conservatives want constant war because World War 3 would of already happened.