Kill fees?

[tsmandy]

So recently I've had a frustrating run of events in LA, having scheduled shoots in advance with assurances from producers that things are good to go, then arriving in LA and getting canceled on. 2 different producers for 2 different companies in the last month. In both cases I was not offered a kill fee, and in one case the director had canceled on me and an 8 month pregnant lady who traveled down from SF for the shoot.

Why do companies making TS porn feel its ok to do bullshit like this? I like the guys who flaked on me, but when I am assured that a shoot is happening and I travel to LA for it I want compensation if that shoot is canceled.

I know Kink regularly pays Kill fees, but I'm not sure its super common with other producers in TS porn. Why is this?

End rant.

[rameses2]

Phew, for a second there I thought you were talking about them there "Death Panels", from the Health Care Town Halls :wink: ! Srsly, that is some lame ass, bull. Those companies are taking your time, time you could be out on other work you turned down to work with the first company, but won't reimburse you for work and time lost because of them. That's gotta change!

[Mac_Hine]

were you gonna be fucking a pregnant lady in one of these scenes? if so the porn producer should be hanged, hanged i say!

anyway, just seems like more proof that tranny porn is bush league when you compare it to the rest of the industry

[BellaBellucci]

were you gonna be fucking a pregnant lady in one of these scenes? if so the porn producer should be hanged, hanged i say!

anyway, just seems like more proof that tranny porn is bush league when you compare it to the rest of the industry

I'm just curious: why does your post say 'Last edited by JHANIAH L0VE Sep 17, 2009 2:00 am?' That's weird.

~BB~

[SarahG]

were you gonna be fucking a pregnant lady in one of these scenes? if so the porn producer should be hanged, hanged i say!

anyway, just seems like more proof that tranny porn is bush league when you compare it to the rest of the industry

I'm just curious: why does your post say 'Last edited by JHANIAH L0VE Sep 17, 2009 2:00 am?' That's weird.

~BB~

You didn't hear? They made her a mod to help out

[BellaBellucci]

were you gonna be fucking a pregnant lady in one of these scenes? if so the porn producer should be hanged, hanged i say!

anyway, just seems like more proof that tranny porn is bush league when you compare it to the rest of the industry

I'm just curious: why does your post say 'Last edited by JHANIAH L0VE Sep 17, 2009 2:00 am?' That's weird.

~BB~

You didn't hear? They made her a mod to help out

For realz? You're pulling my leg.

~BB~

[SarahG]

were you gonna be fucking a pregnant lady in one of these scenes? if so the porn producer should be hanged, hanged i say!

anyway, just seems like more proof that tranny porn is bush league when you compare it to the rest of the industry

I'm just curious: why does your post say 'Last edited by JHANIAH L0VE Sep 17, 2009 2:00 am?' That's weird.

~BB~

You didn't hear? They made her a mod to help out

For realz? You're pulling my leg.

~BB~

Who, me? Would I lie to anyone?
http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/25.gif

[raybbaby]

Yeah, you should get paid something. But male performers, with the exception of maybe the top ten guys, don't get kill fees, so I feel your pain. It sucks, you could've spent your time doing something else. Not long ago I had a "casting agent" of sorts, (a very unofficial one) badgering me at 8:30 to come do a shoot at 9:00 that morning. I said no, as I'd had problems with these directors/producers before. He then called me at 11:00 wanting me to come down. If I've been there for two hours and no one is shooting yet, not only am I leaving, I expect to be compensated for my time. Not going to happen though most of the time. It's just unproffesinal in the extreme. What are you gonna do though?

Sorry about the rant!

[tsmandy]

were you gonna be fucking a pregnant lady in one of these scenes? if so the porn producer should be hanged, hanged i say!

anyway, just seems like more proof that tranny porn is bush league when you compare it to the rest of the industry

I was. We were assured that the shoot was on and drove down to LA together. Then the producer cancelled on us 2 days in a row. I ended up shooting the scene for my own site, (http://www.mandy-mitchell.com/blog/)
but we were in no way compensated by the original company that booked us. My friend is actually kind of pissed at me for not demanding a kill fee, she thinks its really unprofesh.

My point isn't to single anyone in particular out so much, but more to point out that when a girl is told "come to LA on x day" and that girl travels to town (booking a hotel, paying for travel expense etc...) then the company that books her has an obligation to compensate her if they are unable to shoot a scene. It's bullshit like this that makes me want to no longer work for other companies, not because I dislike them, but because I can't trust those gigs will not end up losing me money. LA feels like such a gamble everytime I go its real hit or miss.

[BeardedOne]

Four years in and I'm still learning the lingo. :/

So, a 'Kill Fee' is compensation, in whole or in part, for travel, accommodations, etc. for a shoot that fails to produce?

I agree, that's pretty lame. If you're going to drag talent great distances, upset their schedules, cause them out-of-pocket expense, etc. and then fail to complete and compensate for the gig, you should at least cover some if not all of those expenses.

So, tell me, a month or two down the line when Producer Y determines that Mandy & Muffy are the NBT in Prego/Trans porn, do they =really= believe that you will jump in your car and rush down to LA for a shoot, based on your past experience with them?

What was your word? 'Profesh"? NOT!

[Bob's Tgirls]

So recently I've had a frustrating run of events in LA, having scheduled shoots in advance with assurances from producers that things are good to go, then arriving in LA and getting canceled on. 2 different producers for 2 different companies in the last month. In both cases I was not offered a kill fee, and in one case the director had canceled on me and an 8 month pregnant lady who traveled down from SF for the shoot.

Why do companies making TS porn feel its ok to do bullshit like this? I like the guys who flaked on me, but when I am assured that a shoot is happening and I travel to LA for it I want compensation if that shoot is canceled.

I know Kink regularly pays Kill fees, but I'm not sure its super common with other producers in TS porn. Why is this?

End rant.

It's a good question and I don't know what the particulars were in your case. Was someone sick or unable to make it to the shoot? Or did they seem to be canceled for no apparent reason.

Last year, I had a scene scheduled. The girl, traveled from Vegas and was on time. The guy didn't show. She picked the guy, so I didn't feel too guilty about it. But so it wasn't a total loss for her, we shot a solo set instead. The hardcore shoot happened a few weeks later with a different male talent.

I felt that was a good solution in that circumstance.

From a producer's position, I wouldn't want to pay a kill fee unless it was completely my fault. Of course a performer doesn't want his/her time wasted when another performer flakes either. By the way, what constitutes a kill fee? Is it a percentage?

[shemale-411]

What happened to the OP sucks, but it does go both ways in the business. My old boss would be a very rich man if after over 15 years in business he had a "flake" fee from every model that flaked on a shoot. It is an almost 50/50 chance some days.

[Tara Emory]

What happened to the OP sucks, but it does go both ways in the business. My old boss would be a very rich man if after over 15 years in business he had a "flake" fee from every model that flaked on a shoot. It is an almost 50/50 chance some days.

If you're an LA producer working with LA talent, you probably can bet that they sometimes won't show.

But if someone is driving into town from far away, or god forbid FLYING in at their own expense, the producer's ought to know that person is coming to town for that specific reason- to shoot with them.

I've come to LA for tentative shoots, but often times they were sort of the producer saying like "call me when you get into town and we'll set something up". And in many of those cases, the producers couldn't do it, and in one case the producer wouldn't do it because he found I had done a shoot the day before (I guess he wanted me to save up 3 days of cum- yeah, right!!). Or they'd be shooting with local people that they could be shooting any time, so I'd be thinking "hello! I'm probably not going to be in town for another year- you should use me while I'm here", but of course they don't see it that way.

And there was one case on my recent trip where I told a producer I might be available on a certain morning to shoot (the only time he had available), but when that morning came around, I couldn't, so I didn't return his call.

I really, really doubt he was waiting there for me with the lights and the camera all ready to go. In most cases, the producers have not gone to huge lengths and cost to be ready for a shoot. And the ones that do are probably working with estabished models that are reliable.

-Tara

[tsmandy]

So recently I've had a frustrating run of events in LA, having scheduled shoots in advance with assurances from producers that things are good to go, then arriving in LA and getting canceled on. 2 different producers for 2 different companies in the last month. In both cases I was not offered a kill fee, and in one case the director had canceled on me and an 8 month pregnant lady who traveled down from SF for the shoot.

Why do companies making TS porn feel its ok to do bullshit like this? I like the guys who flaked on me, but when I am assured that a shoot is happening and I travel to LA for it I want compensation if that shoot is canceled.

I know Kink regularly pays Kill fees, but I'm not sure its super common with other producers in TS porn. Why is this?

End rant.

It's a good question and I don't know what the particulars were in your case. Was someone sick or unable to make it to the shoot? Or did they seem to be canceled for no apparent reason.

Last year, I had a scene scheduled. The girl, traveled from Vegas and was on time. The guy didn't show. She picked the guy, so I didn't feel too guilty about it. But so it wasn't a total loss for her, we shot a solo set instead. The hardcore shoot happened a few weeks later with a different male talent.

I felt that was a good solution in that circumstance.

From a producer's position, I wouldn't want to pay a kill fee unless it was completely my fault. Of course a performer doesn't want his/her time wasted when another performer flakes either. By the way, what constitutes a kill fee? Is it a percentage?

Hey Bob, nice to see you in these parts :)

The first day they couldn't book their photographer and a space (which should have been set on their end before I came to town, in fact I was assured that it was) so they said it would happen the next day. Then that day they told me it wouldn't happen due to a pet emergency and that they would need to re-schedule again. At that point I had a very upset pregnant woman who had been promised a shoot the day before and had been willing to postpone but was really fucking pissed after it happened two days in a row. Fortunately I was able to arrange a shoot for my website when our paid gigs got canceled.

I had a shoot canceled at Kink once or twice if memory serves correct and they paid $250 I think. It seems pretty standard in straight porn, not really sure why TS models aren't treated with the same respect. Other than the severe lack of options we have as far as choosing which companies to work with.

I dunno, maybe I just can't deal with the whole westcoast mentality which is so casual. Planning trips to shoot in LA is a nightmare because it is impossible to get anyone to set a date, often until I arrive. I think it will be less of a nightmare once I move to SF, hopefully.

As far as having things run both ways with flaky models and so forth.. I've never flaked on a shoot, never been more than an hour late. I try to give my best in all my scenes, and when I hire people I don't dick them around. It is common courtesy.

[Tara Emory]

by the way, hi Mandy and Bob!

Bob- did you snap a couple of pictures of Mandy and I doing yoga by your pool last August? For some reason I have a mental image of that in my mind.

-Tara

[dc_guy_75]

Couldn't his be solved with a simple contract?

Maybe someone could make a website where a deposit is made, and the full amount is paid unless the producer cancels the payment?

Producers and performers can be rated like Amazon... something probably exists like this already since porn is legal.

trannylegalzoom.com

[tsmandy]

by the way, hi Mandy and Bob!

Bob- did you snap a couple of pictures of Mandy and I doing yoga by your pool last August? For some reason I have a mental image of that in my mind.

-Tara

Hey hot stuff,
There are a couple on his blog, you should check them out.

[Ecstatic]

By the way, what constitutes a kill fee? Is it a percentage?

It depends on the contract/agreement between the parties. On the freelance creative side (as a writer or grapic designer, for instance), the kill fee or cancelation fee insures that you are paid for all work that you have done up to the time that the client notifies you that they are not going to continue. This is typically set in the accepted contract or proposal, and is either the deposit or percentage of work done to that point. In case of a contract over time, such as a six month contract at a set monthly rate of pay, the standard kill fee is 50% of the remaining contract at the time of termination. For instance, if your 6 month, $1000/month contract is terminated after 3 months, the kill fee would be $1500 or 50% of the remaining $3000.

Where modelling is a form of contract time (measured in hours rather than months as with a software or design contract), the same principle holds. As an example, consider this from Model Mayhem, James Vinyard (http://www.modelmayhem.com/1053157):

"KILL FEE: I really hate to start doing this, but because of some recent experiences, my kill fee policy is in full force and as follows- If I am booked to do a shoot with you and you cancel one week or less before said shoot, I require a kill fee of 50% of the value of the shoot. If I am on the road and the shoot is canceled less than one week before the shoot I will require 75%, as it is difficult to book a replacement shoot in that little time and with only intermittent internet access."

However, without an actual contract or signed agreement, it is difficult to enforce this.

[GroobySteven]

I think in those circumstances Mandy, you were entitled to more than a kill fee, they should have paid you the full agreed amount as it was a fuck up on their part and just general mis-management.

As all of my producers are freelance, we don't have a set policy in place but I know PK has had to pay recently when a male performer flaked and so has Herman. I also had to pay a model a kill fee in Hawaii of about 30% as my camera's died on me a few years ago. In my opinion, if a model is there and ready to go at the agreed time then a fee should be paid if the shoot doesn't go ahead ... depending on how far she came and what her expenses were should be the fee.

I wonder if producers can also get kill fees from the models when they don't turn up, are 2 hrs later with no make-up, are unable to get erect or cum ... because I'd be fucking minted!

This kind of comes back to our discussion about a "union" or group of models to have a charter which would lay these rules out and to call out producers which mess you around.

[seanbeag7]

Hi Tara and Mandy,

I just saw those photo's and i really love this one, and i would love to see a whole set of the two of you doing yoga.

[Nikka]

welcome to the porn biz Mandy :)

[GroobySteven]

Hi Tara and Mandy,

I just saw those photo's and i really love this one, and i would love to see a whole set of the two of you doing yoga.

Nah, someone just dropped their coke... :twisted:

[tsmandy]

Yeah, the only problem is that I have no recourse other than to not work for said company again. It hurts me more than it does them if I choose not to work with them further. I think I've been burned enough by this person that the occasional paid gig isn't going to make up for the damage to my reputation (not to mention finances) that occurs when a friend of mine wastes 2 days of their life going to LA and not getting paid. It is seriously fucked up to dick around a pregnant women.

I'm all for unions, but in TS porn I think you would have more scabs than members.



I think in those circumstances Mandy, you were entitled to more than a kill fee, they should have paid you the full agreed amount as it was a fuck up on their part and just general mis-management.

As all of my producers are freelance, we don't have a set policy in place but I know PK has had to pay recently when a male performer flaked and so has Herman. I also had to pay a model a kill fee in Hawaii of about 30% as my camera's died on me a few years ago. In my opinion, if a model is there and ready to go at the agreed time then a fee should be paid if the shoot doesn't go ahead ... depending on how far she came and what her expenses were should be the fee.

I wonder if producers can also get kill fees from the models when they don't turn up, are 2 hrs later with no make-up, are unable to get erect or cum ... because I'd be fucking minted!

This kind of comes back to our discussion about a "union" or group of models to have a charter which would lay these rules out and to call out producers which mess you around.

[tsmandy]

Hi Tara and Mandy,

I just saw those photo's and i really love this one, and i would love to see a whole set of the two of you doing yoga.

I was just teaching Tara some basic stretches, I don't know if that will be happening anytime soon. Though I have fantasized about doing a yoga class gangbang.

[jesseflo]

any real professional company is supposed to pay you a kill fee if its their fault for cancelling and you have a greement,like a contract.they should have payed u something for your troubles. sorry you went through all that but hopefully you got a great scene for your site at least! :wink:

[tsmandy]

any real professional company is supposed to pay you a kill fee if its their fault for cancelling and you have a greement,like a contract.they should have payed u something for your troubles. sorry you went through all that but hopefully you got a great scene for your site at least! :wink:

Yeah, it was kind of a raw deal for sure. But all is well that ends well I suppose, at least I own the content myself now, I just have less money to move with than I had hoped.

[jamiecoxxdotcom]

In mainstream, kill fees are enforced by a models agency. The contracts are already in place between a model's representation and the production companies they work with - they also go both ways. When I was in LA with Megan Murray she wound up having to pay a couple of kill fees for shoots she couldn't make it to, on the flip side she was paid a kill fee when she refused to work on set where there was drug use by staff and talent. Without official representation with a known agency, trans are shit out of luck. So basically, we're all shit out of luck.