OK to be with a TS because they say they are really female

[blacktgirls]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?

[raybbaby]

Why do you feel you need to be justified? If everything in your life depends on the approval of other people, what's the point? It's not really your life at all is it?

[hippifried]

I'm justified because I do what I want.

[blacktgirls]

i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .

[2009AD]

i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .

Damn dude. You sound like you're carrying some guilt with ya. Just bend her ass over, spit between her crack, and slam your cock inside her.

[murciec]

So would it be a sin if they where men? Is it a sin to find someone beautiful and be attracted to them because of it? I think you're looking at this the wrong way. The only sin is living a lie by not admitting that you are attracted to someone because you're afraid of what people may think.

[tygren1@yahoo.com]

I believe that things are done to babies while still in the womb that affects its physiology. Things like the mothers diet, certain medical practices, the chemicals that she internalizes, etc all affect if that child will be either boy, girl or intersexed. So a child can start to develop as a female but a certain factor may send the physical development in to another direction while the mental stays the same. So girls are born as boys. But something doesnt feel right to them and they fixe it when given the chance.

Then you have to understand energies. The energy that was supposed to inhabit a certain body was a feminine energy and because of one of those factors is now represented as a male figure. Its soul is feminine, its thinking is female, but its body is male. It wasnt suppoded to be male, but it is. So these ts women are just that: transsexual women. but when they come back in the next life they might not catch the same snag. There is a lot more that goes in to it though, but hopefully you get the idea. :)

[blacktgirls]

So would it be a sin if they where men? Is it a sin to find someone beautiful and be attracted to them because of it? I think you're looking at this the wrong way. The only sin is living a lie by not admitting that you are attracted to someone because you're afraid of what people may think.having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people .

[SarahG]

So would it be a sin if they where men? Is it a sin to find someone beautiful and be attracted to them because of it? I think you're looking at this the wrong way. The only sin is living a lie by not admitting that you are attracted to someone because you're afraid of what people may think.having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people .

Keeping their interest in TS girls a secret is somewhat different from keeping the girl herself a secret from other people.

Its not just the guys that sometimes want discretion. It wouldn't exactly be a plus if a guy I was dating went around screaming to the world that he "likes girls with dicks." Unless his friends & family are also being sexual with me, my genitalia is none of their business even if he feels "guilty" about not telling them.

[flabbybody]

oy vey
another AM I GAY thread

[hippifried]

i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .
Whether she's a woman or not is up to her & has nothing to do with you.
Just do the deed on Friday, go to Confession on Saturday, & take Communion on Sunday. All is forgiven. The mortal sin is wiped away. You'll probably have to kick some time for the venials, but what's a few millenia in purgatory? You already got that by jacking off to the pictures in here.

[yodajazz]

The way I see it "sin" is time sensitive. Yes it was a high priority to produce as many babies as possible, when your relatively small nations was fighting for survival among a sea of surrounding hostile nations. Or your small sect was surrounded by hostile people willing to throw you to the lions. But in year 2009 the population of the planet is doing just fine.

But even if one concedes that it is a 'sin', there are plenty of sins to go around. Many sins are under-rated in today's world, like greed, for example. What really a higher priortiy is how we treat others. When Jesus was criticized for eating on the Sabbath: he said that it is not what one puts in his mouth that defiles man; it is what comes out of his mouth the defiles man. If you do right by people, right things come out of your mouth as words promises and deeds. Sex with consenting partners is low on priorities of sins, if it is. Those religious people so focused on other people's sex life, are not protesting about the US's part in killing tens of thousands of people in foreign countries.

Like who you like, love who who love. There as plenty of 'sins' outside of sex to go around.

[freak]

You need to stop putting labels on everything. It is just sex, nothing more. Why do you need to feel like you have to explain why you are doing it? It seems that you care more about what other people think then what you think yourself.
Sex without love is no different then playing a round of golf, do you feel you need to explain yourself to people that don't like to golf about playing golf?

[Nalos6]

"I am." Think about that.

[LibertyHarkness]

gosh it must suck to be religious and believe in all this sin bullshit...

you are what you are..you like what you like..you only live once and when your dead nothing matters anymore anyway :)

Live life and enjoy .. if you like a TS/TV/Male/Female go and enjoy its your life ...

Unless your broadcasting to the world who actually knows a persons likes/dislikes etc..

[mikejones]

i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .

Damn dude. You sound like you're carrying some guilt with ya. Just bend her ass over, spit between her crack, and slam your cock inside her.

Exactly!

[cookiepuss]

"I am." Think about that.

great post! :wink:

[Nicole Dupre]

i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .

I would never want to deal with a guy asking themselves questions like this anyway. When I hear stuff like this; I assume that you've already talked yourself out of having sex with men, and perhaps animals and kids too, simply because you couldn't figure out a way to justify it. Stick with Jesus or Allah, if you're that confused. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the "lesser of evils" that you gave in to.

[Nicole Dupre]

but we all gay

Love your new av, mama. :)

[dgs925]

The OP is going to BURN IN HELLFIRE!!!!

[trrlex]

Your reasoning is terribly flawed, but I suppose that's to be expected from someone who is religious.

If God actually existed then He would ultimately be responsible for the innate urges and desires put in you. Therefore, it would be no more sinful to be attracted to transsexuals than it would be to breathe.

Thankfully, God isn't real and there is no absolute morality, so you can enjoy lusting after trannies all you want.

And by the way, you're all gay.

[dgs925]

If God actually existed then He would ultimately be responsible for the innate urges and desires put in you. Therefore, it would be no more sinful to be attracted to transsexuals than it would be to breathe.

That's the thing, though. God is a tricky bastard, always trying to trip you up.

[Nicole Dupre]

but we all gay

Love your new av, mama. :)thank you sexy girl.. when are you going to stop by the parties again???

Soon actually. In fact, I was gonna call you a little later today. Just over a cold, and seeing all kinds of family and friends that i had not in YEARS. We're good girls. remember. ;) But now that I'm healthy and I've made the rounds, it's time to be a little naughty. lol I'm gonna give you a call a lil' later tonight. xoxo

[SarahG]

The OP is going to BURN IN HELLFIRE!!!!

How do you know this world isn't hell?

[Nicole Dupre]

The OP is going to BURN IN HELLFIRE!!!!

How do you know this world isn't hell?

From everything I've seen, both heaven and hell are right here. I do have faith in a higher power, but organized religion is just a little too high. lol

If the true message of Christianity is to live by Jesus' lessons, then I am still technically a Christian. But the majority of his fan club are a bunch of silly and angry losers, who have no class. They should all be ashamed of themselves for watering down and twisting his message.

Anyway, I live by only one real commandment, which every human being knows in their heart of hearts to be true: "Thou shall not be an asshole!" lol

[DL_NL]

People are not computers. Their desires and preferences can't be either one or zero, there's lots in between. Stop trying to rationalize everything, accept yourself for what you are and start enjoying life. Concentrate instead on being a good person.

[rockabilly]

Very true , treat others the way you'd like to be treated. And don't worry about preconceived notions of sexuality. Gay/Straight/Bi they are only words.

[blacktgirls]

I believe that things are done to babies while still in the womb that affects its physiology. Things like the mothers diet, certain medical practices, the chemicals that she internalizes, etc all affect if that child will be either boy, girl or intersexed. So a child can start to develop as a female but a certain factor may send the physical development in to another direction while the mental stays the same. So girls are born as boys. But something doesnt feel right to them and they fixe it when given the chance.

Then you have to understand energies. The energy that was supposed to inhabit a certain body was a feminine energy and because of one of those factors is now represented as a male figure. Its soul is feminine, its thinking is female, but its body is male. It wasnt suppoded to be male, but it is. So these ts women are just that: transsexual women. but when they come back in the next life they might not catch the same snag. There is a lot more that goes in to it though, but hopefully you get the idea. :)i tell myself that it is alright to be with a TS for this above explanation and that they were supposed to be born female and that their soul is female . have other guys here also used this thinking to feel that it is ok to be with a TS ? does anyone else here feel a degree of guilt for their attraction to TS ladies ? if not than why keep it a secret ?

[loren]

having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people . :2cent (nothing personal) That's a bull:censor answer. Lusting after your neighbor's wife or coveting his stuff is a sin, any sex is outside of marriage is a sin, working on the "Sabbath" is a sin, lying is a sin, fraud is a sin; and so on.

Far be it for me to tell you how to run your life, but if you're that conflicted (about gay or not gay and sin or not sin), maybee you shouldn't be here. :shrug After all
Matthew 5:29 & 30 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[phobun]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?
i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .
having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people .
You wrote that you are attracted to "TS ladies" but I bet that you like pre-ops in particular (like most guys here). The fact she is TS or looks like a lady is not enough... she has to sport a dick too.

But in your world, liking dick would otherwise make you gay. Thus you premise your attraction on her self-perception as female (as you indicated in your first post in this thread). What if a pre-op does not yet consider herself female, or what if she considers herself the third sex, as Danielle Foxx has described?

Your justification is full of holes, so it is no surprise that it does not ease your cognitive dissonance about sucking dick. At least you're wise enough to keep your rationale for being a tranny chaser from your friends, because it does not even convince yourself.

In order to ease your doubts, dump the superstitious mind control and accept the fact that you're attracted to the male sex organ. That is what you like; accept yourself as you are. I hope you find internal peace, otherwise you'd probably end up hating any pre-op with whom you fall in love.

[trrlex]

does anyone else here feel a degree of guilt for their attraction to TS ladies ?
if not than why keep it a secret ?
Established social conventions based on archaic concepts of morality dictate that homosexuality is wrong or abnormal. While most of us here do not subscribe to said conventions, many of us have friends and family that do. This can lead to social complications and even ostracization, and is why most of us aren't open about our attraction to transsexuals.

[Nicole Dupre]

You wrote that you are attracted to "TS ladies" but I bet that you like pre-ops in particular (like most guys here). The fact she is TS or looks like a lady is not enough... she has to sport a dick too.

But in your world, liking dick would otherwise make you gay. Thus you premise your attraction on her self-perception as female (as you indicated in your first post in this thread). What if a pre-op does not yet consider herself female, or what if she considers herself the third sex, as Danielle Foxx has described?

Your justification is full of holes, so it is no surprise that it does not ease your cognitive dissonance about sucking dick. At least you're wise enough to keep your rationale for being a tranny chaser from your friends, because it does not even convince yourself.

In order to ease your doubts, dump the superstitious mind control and accept the fact that you're attracted to the male sex organ. That is what you like; accept yourself as you are. I hope you find internal peace, otherwise you'd probably end up hating any pre-op with whom you fall in love.

God, you are ripe for therapy, and I genuinely pity you. You're talking to yourself again here. This is one of the most sad cases of self-projection ever on HA. Seriously, get some help somewhere. http://www.earthtym.net/bal-project.htm

[eclipsemint]

There's a sound sub-conscious reason why he called himself phobun when he joined HA.

He's always homophob-in' to the other forum members.

[loren]

There's a sound sub-conscious reason why he called himself phobun when he joined HA.

He's always homophob-in' to the other forum members. :lol: :lol: :lol: how true

[blacktgirls]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?
i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .
having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people .
You wrote that you are attracted to "TS ladies" but I bet that you like pre-ops in particular (like most guys here). The fact she is TS or looks like a lady is not enough... she has to sport a dick too.

But in your world, liking dick would otherwise make you gay. Thus you premise your attraction on her self-perception as female (as you indicated in your first post in this thread). What if a pre-op does not yet consider herself female, or what if she considers herself the third sex, as Danielle Foxx has described?

Your justification is full of holes, so it is no surprise that it does not ease your cognitive dissonance about sucking dick. At least you're wise enough to keep your rationale for being a tranny chaser from your friends, because it does not even convince yourself.

In order to ease your doubts, dump the superstitious mind control and accept the fact that you're attracted to the male sex organ. That is what you like; accept yourself as you are. I hope you find internal peace, otherwise you'd probably end up hating any pre-op with whom you fall in love. your description of this quandary is right on and probable most of the guys here use this same reasoning for why having sex with a TS is not gay . your solution is that i choose my own belief on whether it is right or wrong and that whichever i choose , as long as i accept myself , will make it ok . i wish it were this simple and that my spiritual doubts would dissapear. most of the TS girls say they are straight in their profiles on escort and dating sites . yet , a couple of TS girls on HA are always calling us guys , " FAGGOTS !!!!! " , so it seems that even these two TS girls don't have the answer . i guess these doubts on wether it's gay or not to suck TS cock can only be solved between one' s self and God . myself , i'm afraid to bring it up .

[moscowradcliffe]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?
i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .
having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people .
You wrote that you are attracted to "TS ladies" but I bet that you like pre-ops in particular (like most guys here). The fact she is TS or looks like a lady is not enough... she has to sport a dick too.

But in your world, liking dick would otherwise make you gay. Thus you premise your attraction on her self-perception as female (as you indicated in your first post in this thread). What if a pre-op does not yet consider herself female, or what if she considers herself the third sex, as Danielle Foxx has described?

Your justification is full of holes, so it is no surprise that it does not ease your cognitive dissonance about sucking dick. At least you're wise enough to keep your rationale for being a tranny chaser from your friends, because it does not even convince yourself.

In order to ease your doubts, dump the superstitious mind control and accept the fact that you're attracted to the male sex organ. That is what you like; accept yourself as you are. I hope you find internal peace, otherwise you'd probably end up hating any pre-op with whom you fall in love. your description of this quandary is right on and probable most of the guys here use this same reasoning for why having sex with a TS is not gay . your solution is that i choose my own belief on whether it is right or wrong and that whichever i choose , as long as i accept myself , will make it ok . i wish it were this simple and that my spiritual doubts would dissapear. most of the TS girls say they are straight in their profiles on escort and dating sites . yet , a couple of TS girls on HA are always calling us guys , " FAGGOTS !!!!! " , so it seems that even these two TS girls don't have the answer . i guess these doubts on wether it's gay or not to suck TS cock can only be solved between one' s self and God . myself , i'm afraid to bring it up .


moscow agrees and so does Dan Savage!

http://slippery-digit.blogspot.com/2009/10/shemales-are-you-gay.html

[phobun]

your description of this quandary is right on and probable most of the guys here use this same reasoning for why having sex with a TS is not gay . your solution is that i choose my own belief on whether it is right or wrong and that whichever i choose , as long as i accept myself , will make it ok . i wish it were this simple and that my spiritual doubts would dissapear. most of the TS girls say they are straight in their profiles on escort and dating sites . yet , a couple of TS girls on HA are always calling us guys , " FAGGOTS !!!!! " , so it seems that even these two TS girls don't have the answer . i guess these doubts on wether it's gay or not to suck TS cock can only be solved between one' s self and God . myself , i'm afraid to bring it up .
Only a few call individuals here call guys "faggots" or "queers" and of these, I would say none are truly girls. First of all, why would a self-assured transsexual woman need to put a guy down using such a slur, and secondly, why would she even want to say it? Generally, transsexuals desire to appear feminine, but you probably can't picture your sister or mom or GG girlfriends acting so crudely.

The girls who attack guys are the most insecure of all, and for good reason. But what to expect if you look like a hairless male biker with a boa? What to expect if you have tiny male nipples and overpaid for a breast augmentation (no doubt performed with this instrument (http://www.amazon.com/Lightweight-Ball-Pump-with-Needle/dp/B001KMTUZI))? What to expect if no one gave a damn about your "Ask ____" thread, or if you knew better than to even start one, as you watch sweet Alyssa's thread go to 70+ pages? Just ignore the bitter, aging clowns who try to put you down.

You believe in God, and I respect that. You probably believe that he already knows what's in your heart and that he knows you're imperfect. Perhaps there is value in how you approach your interest? Transsexuality has always been a source of distress for humans, so maybe you are helping others to heal their dysphoria by treating and accepting them as women, rather than by throwing stones and crying sinner, or by primarily focusing on your own self-indulgent pleasures like so many cock-bandits do?

It's not easy to dump a belief system you probably grew up with, but for the sake of others, bear your cross quietly. You are the imperfect man you are, and that is not going to change. Realizing yourself for the man you are will remove a poisonous element that can make others feel uncomfortable. But if nothing else, focus on accepting others first, rather than your own insecurities. Transsexuals are women and want to be treated as such, so if you're a self-confident and attentive gentleman to the woman you admire, you'll obviate anyone's attempt to belittle you as a queer.

[jimbobw2]

So would it be a sin if they where men? Is it a sin to find someone beautiful and be attracted to them because of it? I think you're looking at this the wrong way. The only sin is living a lie by not admitting that you are attracted to someone because you're afraid of what people may think.having sex with men is homosexual behavior and is a sin . hence , all the " is it gay " , or " am i gay " threads on HA . i think that most of the posters on HA probably keep their interest in TS ladies a secret from other people .

you are gay...

[Legend]

I think when guys say they hide their interest in transsexuals(which is a cowardly act in my opinion) a secret its really saying they still think of transgender women as guys because they don't wanna be preceived as being gay by there peers, a real guy wouldn't be so insecure about himself to care what other people think of him or his transsexual date or whatever, he would always look a her as a female and wouldn't give a damn what other people think.


And guys who say stuff like being gay is a sin and things like "no homo" really come off as the opposite of what they're trying to portray themselves to be.This very guy invented the term "no homo",

http://i36.tinypic.com/al3r4p.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/xsq6v.jpg

"no homo" yeah right.

[Nicole Dupre]

Honestly, I call guys like Belial "fags" and "queers" because they're so damn obnoxious ,thinking they're somehow a higher life form than anyone who fall into the LGBT category. Belial's got his head up his ass if he thinks the lynch mobs would skip over him if they knew what he enjoyed jerking off to. To the typical homophobic hater, he might as well be gay. But catch this: WE ALL MIGHT AS WELL BE GAY. SO GET USED TO IT UNLESS YOU'RE READY TO CHANGE IT, YOU FAGGOTS.

Btw, wtf would be so bad about being gay if you really were? What other people would think of you? I mean, you've got to be kidding us all, if that's what it boils down to for you. Spare us, please.

Saying that TS are 'just a fetish' is also pure nonsense. Fetishes relate to inanimate objects, not other human beings. We're real people, made of flesh and blood. Call a spade a "spade", and move on. Imo the deep denial those guys live in is far worse than any sexuality ever could be. The guys who make us a dirty little secret 'fetish' deserve to give the donation the most. You can't have your cake and eat it too, fellas.

As for the OP, who's wrestling with a morality issue here; that's the saddest, if not the silliest, problem you could ever have with being attracted to transsexuals. Sex between consenting adults is a cake walk. Yet he's acting like he's been jerking off to snuff or kiddie porn.

[tygren1@yahoo.com]

It's all about energy. A ts woman is femminine energy in a femminized male vessel. When a guy like me looks at a ts woman, what turns me on to her are her femminine aspects: her curves, her mannerisms, etc. Everything that attracts me to a gg attracts me to a ts. I look fo the same things in both. As far as the genitalia goes, I only deal with that in terms how I can make her feel in the sexual aspect of things. With g-girls when it comes to sex Ill do almost anything that she needed me to do to get an orgasim. Foreplay, oral, all of that. Me though, I like anal. Both ts and gg offer that so Ill take from both. Not from a man though and that is because a man is not represenative of the femminine energy, so naturally I wouldnt be attracted. There are many reasons why women are born as men in these modern times whether you believe them or not. But these transsexuals are women so treat them like a woman and give her whatever respect she allows you to give her.

In terms of whether or not you think its right to have sex with them thats up to you noone here can give you that answer. The only thing that i can tell you is that the religions are lower forms of of certain sets of priciples followed in the anchient world as a way to reach a higher self. Religion, unlike the principles from which they were derived, were used as a way to control the masses. There is a lot that goes in to that though, I'll go more in depth if asked to. :)

[blackrob]

i feel that if the Ts says she is female and lives as a woman than my desires for her are not a sin , but i have doubts that i am only using this as a justification .

I would never want to deal with a guy asking themselves questions like this anyway. When I hear stuff like this; I assume that you've already talked yourself out of having sex with men, and perhaps animals and kids too, simply because you couldn't figure out a way to justify it. Stick with Jesus or Allah, if you're that confused. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the "lesser of evils" that you gave in to.

lol

[Nicole Dupre]

Btw, what's up with staggering and indenting your sentences. Are you writing new bible verses? lol

Anyway can we cut to the chase on this mentally handicapped thread? No one here is going to empathize with you on this "sin" stuff, just as no one here is holding their breath waiting for Santa or the Easter Bunny.

You wanna know what's a "sin"?

It's a "sin" that if we auctioned off the pope's funny hat on Ebay, we could feed a small country's population of starving children.

It's a sin that women get shot as they run out of burning buildings because they weren't wearing those hideous hijab dish towels over their faces.

So boo-fucking-hoo for you, and your dumb moral quandry. How dare you waste bandwidth with this bullshit? Just take it up the ass like a man, and stop playing these adolescent games with yourself.

As one of the least straight people you would ever want to meet, I can tell you that you are indeed a grade-A homo, and that you most certainly are going to burn in hell.

However, if it's of any consolation to you, WE will all be there cheering you on for not being a total faggot about it.

Can I get a "Hallelujah", or an "Allahu Akbar"? How about a "Gabba Gabba Hey"?

[farang]

How about a "Gabba Gabba Hey"?

It can't get any better than a hot girl quoting the Ramones !!

[tygren1@yahoo.com]

Also, there is no such thing as sin in terms of religion. Religoin deals with moralism which, again, was used to control the behaviors of certain groups of people and eventually the world. What religion/moralism teaches is the natural behavior of a group of people that created it only to fall to it. For those people (this includes you) sin would mean a deviation from your nature its only punishment being whatever negative affects you get. but noone is going to come and put you in hell forever or some bs like that. Hell does not exist like that. Hell is a state of being that you will never go to. Is being with a ts, sexually, natural? No. But their state isnt either. Noone is going to punish you for it. whatever comes from you doing it wont last for all eternity. As above so below. If you belive that something will hurt you then it will. Think about it. :)


And even if religion was real, Jesus said that if you commit an act of lust in your mind then it is the same as you actually doing it. So theoretically, youd be going to hell just for wanting to partake.

[fred41]

Btw, wtf would be so bad about being gay if you really were? What other people would think of you? I mean, you've got to be kidding us all, if that's what it boils down to for you. Spare us, please.


I've always said this ...this is one of the problems with the "Am I Gay?" threads. Even on sites like this , where the assumption is that people would be more open minded, are homosexuals still thought of as being, somehow..lesser human life forms.

"Hey guys..I like transsexuals..am I (gulp)GAY?"
"No dude..don't worry about it."
"Wheeeew..thank God. I was about to start drinking heavy..or shooting heroin..or sit in my car in the garage with the engine on. Wow..totally cool now.............Oh but, not that there's anything wrong with being gay. chuckle, chuckle"

[gotchagood]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?My body responds to anything that's feminine. It can be a man with "feminine" mannerisms and a feminine voice, a drag queen, a guy in a sexy dress with a sexy feminine walk (this is of course until he turns a round and I see a goatee or something, then it's limp city) or a gg who oozes sensuality and has sexy voice, now these examples are of course not necessary literal, but yeah, everything on me works right. I'm have no questions about who or what I am, nor am I ashamed. What's strange, weird or "wrong" with being "male" and being attracted to someone who's "IMO" 99% "female?" In short, if asked, "Why are you attracted to ts's?" "Because they look and act like women, DUUUH" That's it, no more no less.

Personally, I've never been with a ts and probably never will so I can't add to this, but as far as what God thinks of this, he knows the strong desires of man for the "feminine." God is "not" against homosexuals, it's the act. One of the things that led the people against Jesus was the fact that he hung out with, thieves, tax collectors and what society considered the fallen and deranged. "It's not the healthy that needs a doctor."

Take what you want out of this and have a nice day

:wink:

[Nicole Dupre]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?My body responds to anything that's feminine. It can be a man with "feminine" mannerisms and a feminine voice, a drag queen, a guy in a sexy dress with a sexy feminine walk (this is of course until he turns a round and I see a goatee or something, then it's limp city) or a gg who oozes sensuality and has sexy voice, now these examples are of course not necessary literal, but yeah, everything on me works right. I'm have no questions about who or what I am, nor am I ashamed. What's strange, weird or "wrong" with being "male" and being attracted to someone who's "IMO" 99% "female?" In short, if asked, "Why are you attracted to ts's?" "Because they look and act like women, DUUUH" That's it, no more no less.

Personally, I've never been with a ts and probably never will so I can't add to this, but as far as what God thinks of this, he knows the strong desires of man for the "feminine." God is "not" against homosexuals, it's the act. One of the things that led the people against Jesus was the fact that he hung out with, thieves, tax collectors and what society considered the fallen and deranged. "It's not the healthy that needs a doctor."

Take what you want out of this and have a nice day

:wink:

The human libido is part of procreative process ie. biology. If a guy looked at a hot chick, and decided he was better off watching television, the human race would stop reproducing. Maybe more guys should be happy that they get hard AT ALL.

If people trust God so fucking much, maybe they should stop trying to second guess his logic and speak for him so often. Assuming God wants us reproduce, wouldn't he have a back-up plan for over population? Maybe that's where homosexuality and transsexuals fit in. You get to enjoy your God-given biological urges without mindlessly pumping out kids. It's the fundamentalists who have a kid to celebrate every time they fuck, as if it's such a noble contribution to breed more kooky cult members.

[phobun]

And even if religion was real, Jesus said that if you commit an act of lust in your mind then it is the same as you actually doing it. So theoretically, youd be going to hell just for wanting to partake.
Your point demonstrates the best way to debate with believers, by being respectful but demonstrating the absurdities and contradictions. Yes I personally agree that religion is evil and misogynist, but impugning folks who do believe in a god-figure or the concept of sin is just counter-productive. Rarely will people be swayed by epithets or sneers. Even most religious people are selective in how much superstition they will swallow, and many will even acknowlege as much, while conceding that it is often family and social pressures that keep them part of the so-called flock. The believer will generally rally towards those ties, more so than towards any theology, if you use insults in trying to back him or her up against the wall.

[Nicole Dupre]

Your point demonstrates the best way to debate with believers, by being respectful but demonstrating the absurdities and contradictions. Yes I personally agree that religion is evil and misogynist, but impugning folks who do believe in a god-figure or the concept of sin is just counter-productive. Rarely will people be swayed by epithets or sneers. Even most religious people are selective in how much superstition they will swallow, and many will even acknowlege as much, while conceding that it is often family and social pressures that keep them part of the so-called flock. The believer will generally rally towards those ties, more so than towards any theology, if you use insults in trying to back him or her up against the wall.

You're so full of it. You go around here insulting people, accusing people of homosexuality, and of being secondary transsexuals left and right. So, please, don't force me to start quoting you because you'd have zero chance of backpeddling if I did.

And you have nerve taking any stabs at psychology. You're a text book case of myriad of psychological and behavioral disorders. If anything, you need to listen and learn, not teach. You've painted yourself into an intellectual corner on this forum. Good look getting out of it without things getting even stickier.

[mealticket]

Just like transsexuals were born in the wrong boday, you can not help who you are attracted to. In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. So it is your own perception that matters. Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.

[phobun]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

[Teydyn]

It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.
Its not that they dont understand the "role", they just say it to hurt and play on the insecurities of the target.

[phobun]

It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.
Its not that they dont understand the "role", they just say it to hurt and play on the insecurities of the target.
Some girls go through a catty phase while growing up, but most women over the course of their lives are not that sadistic. I can't imagine the females I've known using malicious slurs "to hurt and play on the insecurities of the target", as a few individuals consistently do. So sad to see people with so much pent-up bitterness.

[blacktgirls]

I think when guys say they hide their interest in transsexuals(which is a cowardly act in my opinion) a secret its really saying they still think of transgender women as guys because they don't wanna be preceived as being gay by there peers, a real guy wouldn't be so insecure about himself to care what other people think of him or his transsexual date or whatever, he would always look a her as a female and wouldn't give a damn what other people think.


And guys who say stuff like being gay is a sin and things like "no homo" really come off as the opposite of what they're trying to portray themselves to be.This very guy invented the term "no homo",

http://i36.tinypic.com/al3r4p.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/xsq6v.jpg

"no homo" yeah right. Obviously every guy here keeps their interest in Ts girls a secret otherwise we would use our real names and pictures . I think the belief that it's ok to be with a TS because the girls here were born physically male but cognitively and emotionally female as a result of a hormonal imbalance during their development in the womb and being with a TS therefore is not homosexual and against Jewdeo-Christian beliefs is a commonly used rationalization among the men on this board. This belief is what i personally use myself and my intention for starting this thread was for confirmation that i am not alone in this reasoning . I can see how some people might have taken this the wrong way and this was not my intention , so sorry if you did .

[sheyum]

wow--Im just reading this hideous and disturning "am i gay" thread...
they are like the proverbial car wrecks...you just cant avoid them...At first-you think "Ok--another Am I gay thread--someone shoot me and put me out of my misery --could ANYTHING be more boring?? But then you cant stop reading..just to see how many idioti--homophobic--self-loathing--anto-intellectual ways there are to discuss the same dumb fucking topic..

But this one was particularly productive,, cause I'd never before really focused on Nicole Depree...and this chick is smart and funny as hell

Yay Nicole!!!--you're me new friend..
I love smart people

[sheyum]

sorry for the typos
Nicole DUpre....mY new friend...

[fred41]

I think when guys say they hide their interest in transsexuals(which is a cowardly act in my opinion) a secret its really saying they still think of transgender women as guys because they don't wanna be preceived as being gay by there peers, a real guy wouldn't be so insecure about himself to care what other people think of him or his transsexual date or whatever, he would always look a her as a female and wouldn't give a damn what other people think.


And guys who say stuff like being gay is a sin and things like "no homo" really come off as the opposite of what they're trying to portray themselves to be.This very guy invented the term "no homo",

http://i36.tinypic.com/al3r4p.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/xsq6v.jpg

"no homo" yeah right. Obviously every guy here keeps their interest in Ts girls a secret otherwise we would use our real names and pictures . I think the belief that it's ok to be with a TS because the girls here were born physically male but cognitively and emotionally female as a result of a hormonal imbalance during their development in the womb and being with a TS therefore is not homosexual and against Jewdeo-Christian beliefs is a commonly used rationalization among the men on this board. This belief is what i personally use myself and my intention for starting this thread was for confirmation that i am not alone in this reasoning . I can see how some people might have taken this the wrong way and this was not my intention , so sorry if you did .

It's childishly simplistic to think that the only reason guys don't use their real names and pictures on a public internet site is to keep ones interest in transsexuals a secret. ..but if it makes you and your simplistic belief in your religion feel any better..then more power to ya.

[Nicole Dupre]

wow--Im just reading this hideous and disturning "am i gay" thread...
they are like the proverbial car wrecks...you just cant avoid them...At first-you think "Ok--another Am I gay thread--someone shoot me and put me out of my misery --could ANYTHING be more boring?? But then you cant stop reading..just to see how many idioti--homophobic--self-loathing--anto-intellectual ways there are to discuss the same dumb fucking topic..

But this one was particularly productive,, cause I'd never before really focused on Nicole Depree...and this chick is smart and funny as hell

Yay Nicole!!!--you're me new friend..
I love smart people

Awww... Thank you, baby. :-*

[Teydyn]

Obviously every guy here keeps their interest in Ts girls a secret otherwise we would use our real names and pictures.
Obviously you have no clue what you talk about? Why should i use my real name here? I dont use it ANYWHERE on the internet where i dont have to. Oh, and you can ask my wife if i hide my interest in TS from her. That would be quite the accomplishment, with her being a TS.

[archineer]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.

[phobun]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.
Thanks for your personal anecdotes and thoughts but I don't agree with you. Regarding the gayboys with boobs comment, you discussed "ts' ranging from non-op to post-op" in your reply. As I specifically said, I consider TS women to be women, and I'll add that I think this is true for pre-op TS women too. I think we can agree that there are people who are gender-variant but not transsexual however, and of these, I believe that some misclassify themselves as transsexual. You can choose to feel insulted if I add that some of these people may in fact be gayboys with boobs, but then we obviously have a disagreement in opinion, and there is no use getting so incensed about it. Cheers!

[archineer]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.
Thanks for your personal anecdotes and thoughts but I don't agree with you. Regarding the gayboys with boobs comment, you discussed "ts' ranging from non-op to post-op" in your reply. As I specifically said, I consider TS women to be women, and I'll add that I think this is true for pre-op TS women too. I think we can agree that there are people who are gender-variant but not transsexual however, and of these, I believe that some misclassify themselves as transsexual. You can choose to feel insulted if I add that some of these people may in fact be gayboys with boobs, but then we obviously have a disagreement in opinion, and there is no use getting so incensed about it. Cheers!

You (like some militant post ops and certain sections of the medical community) are splitting hairs and you know it. The distinction is artificial and only reinforced by certain post op segments of the community, because there is a perception that having some transexuals (transgenders if you want to be anal about it) that choose not to go under the knife belittles the plight of intensely post op women. Where is the evidence that non ops or undecided pre ops are less neurologicaly female than intensely post op women?

I'd argue (and yes its only my opinion but so is the medical establishment definition someones opinion) that anyone who undergoes hormone therapy and sugery to live full time as a woman, and identifies as a woman should be considered transexual, regardless of srs status. This while not accurate according to certain medical definitions is how most people in the community see it. The girls I know would never consider themselves 'gay guys with boobs', they consider themselves women. Seriously why are you obsessed with insulting these people? Are you trying to say that for instance Miriam Rivera, or Vanity should not be considered women even though thats how they both define their gender?

Also a little anecdote you might find interesting, under british law any trans person can legaly change their gender regardless of srs status.

[phobun]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.
Thanks for your personal anecdotes and thoughts but I don't agree with you. Regarding the gayboys with boobs comment, you discussed "ts' ranging from non-op to post-op" in your reply. As I specifically said, I consider TS women to be women, and I'll add that I think this is true for pre-op TS women too. I think we can agree that there are people who are gender-variant but not transsexual however, and of these, I believe that some misclassify themselves as transsexual. You can choose to feel insulted if I add that some of these people may in fact be gayboys with boobs, but then we obviously have a disagreement in opinion, and there is no use getting so incensed about it. Cheers!

You (like some militant post ops and certain sections of the medical community) are splitting hairs and you know it. The distinction is artificial and only reinforced by certain post op segments of the community, because there is a perception that having some transexuals (transgenders if you want to be anal about it) that choose not to go under the knife belittles the plight of intensely post op women. Where is the evidence that non ops or undecided pre ops are less neurologicaly female than intensly post op women?I don't know what "intensely post op women" are, but your insinuation that there is a vast, post-op conspiracy is amusing. As far as whatever you mean by "neurologicaly female", I did not know that was any valid measure, and I know of no one doing brain biopsies to determine such a thing.
I'd argue (and yes its only my opinion but so is the medical establishment definition someones opinion) that anyone who undergoes hormone therapy and sugery to live full time as a woman, and identifies as a woman should be considered transexual, regardless of srs status. This while not accurate according to certain medical definitions is how most people in the community see it. The girls I know would never consider themselves 'gay guys with boobs', they consider themselves women. Seriously why are you obsessed with insulting these people? Are you trying to say that for instance Miriam Rivera, or Vanity should not be considered women even though thats how they both define their gender?

Also a little anecdote you might find interesting, under british law any trans person can legaly change their gender regardless of srs status.Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

I'll leave the speculation about Miriam Rivera to expert forum members like Ruemue. Thanks for your opinions though.

[Legend]

Obviously every guy here keeps their interest in Ts girls a secret otherwise we would use our real names and pictures . I think the belief that it's ok to be with a TS because the girls here were born physically male but cognitively and emotionally female as a result of a hormonal imbalance during their development in the womb and being with a TS therefore is not homosexual and against Jewdeo-Christian beliefs is a commonly used rationalization among the men on this board. This belief is what i personally use myself and my intention for starting this thread was for confirmation that i am not alone in this reasoning . I can see how some people might have taken this the wrong way and this was not my intention , so sorry if you did .



I don't think people don't use thier real names here because this is this freakin internet and this forum has some nutcases, i don't think its because this is a transsexual forum.


You have some issues with sexuality that you need to address hiding behide religion isn't going to fix it, really i can't uderstand people who say stuff like being gay is a sin or something,did jesus personally tell you to hate, get some common sense and think for yourself.


My rationalization or beleif is that i really don't care what other people think, there is nothing wrong with being gay and if people thought i was gay for liking transgender women then thats their problem not mines.If your talking about literally keeping a transgender women a secet from your family or freinds that your dating then that is f**ked up, you don't do people you care about like that period.I hope you really feel secure about yourself one day to not care what other people think about you.

[archineer]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.
Thanks for your personal anecdotes and thoughts but I don't agree with you. Regarding the gayboys with boobs comment, you discussed "ts' ranging from non-op to post-op" in your reply. As I specifically said, I consider TS women to be women, and I'll add that I think this is true for pre-op TS women too. I think we can agree that there are people who are gender-variant but not transsexual however, and of these, I believe that some misclassify themselves as transsexual. You can choose to feel insulted if I add that some of these people may in fact be gayboys with boobs, but then we obviously have a disagreement in opinion, and there is no use getting so incensed about it. Cheers!

You (like some militant post ops and certain sections of the medical community) are splitting hairs and you know it. The distinction is artificial and only reinforced by certain post op segments of the community, because there is a perception that having some transexuals (transgenders if you want to be anal about it) that choose not to go under the knife belittles the plight of intensely post op women. Where is the evidence that non ops or undecided pre ops are less neurologicaly female than intensly post op women?I don't know what "intensely post op women" are, but your insinuation that there is a vast, post-op conspiracy is amusing. As far as whatever you mean by "neurologicaly female", I did not know that was any valid measure, and I know of no one doing brain biopsies to determine such a thing.
I'd argue (and yes its only my opinion but so is the medical establishment definition someones opinion) that anyone who undergoes hormone therapy and sugery to live full time as a woman, and identifies as a woman should be considered transexual, regardless of srs status. This while not accurate according to certain medical definitions is how most people in the community see it. The girls I know would never consider themselves 'gay guys with boobs', they consider themselves women. Seriously why are you obsessed with insulting these people? Are you trying to say that for instance Miriam Rivera, or Vanity should not be considered women even though thats how they both define their gender?

Also a little anecdote you might find interesting, under british law any trans person can legaly change their gender regardless of srs status.Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

I'll leave the speculation about Miriam Rivera to expert forum members like Ruemue. Thanks for your opinions though.

o.k. how about transexuals with high levels of gender disphoria, i.e. girls that hate their cocks so much they need srs to stay sane. No theres not a 'vast conspiracy' quite the opposite infact. People like you insisting on strict outdated medical definitions of what is a true transexual are thankfully in the minority.

You clearly have major homophobia issues.

Edit: i'd like to point out that Harry Benjamins original definition of a transexual does NOT require them to have srs, and the idea from some quarters that non ops are not transexual is hotly contested.

[gotchagood]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?My body responds to anything that's feminine. It can be a man with "feminine" mannerisms and a feminine voice, a drag queen, a guy in a sexy dress with a sexy feminine walk (this is of course until he turns a round and I see a goatee or something, then it's limp city) or a gg who oozes sensuality and has sexy voice, now these examples are of course not necessary literal, but yeah, everything on me works right. I'm have no questions about who or what I am, nor am I ashamed. What's strange, weird or "wrong" with being "male" and being attracted to someone who's "IMO" 99% "female?" In short, if asked, "Why are you attracted to ts's?" "Because they look and act like women, DUUUH" That's it, no more no less.

Personally, I've never been with a ts and probably never will so I can't add to this, but as far as what God thinks of this, he knows the strong desires of man for the "feminine." God is "not" against homosexuals, it's the act. One of the things that led the people against Jesus was the fact that he hung out with, thieves, tax collectors and what society considered the fallen and deranged. "It's not the healthy that needs a doctor."

Take what you want out of this and have a nice day

:wink:

The human libido is part of procreative process ie. biology. If a guy looked at a hot chick, and decided he was better off watching television, the human race would stop reproducing. Maybe more guys should be happy that they get hard AT ALL.

If people trust God so fucking much, maybe they should stop trying to second guess his logic and speak for him so often. Assuming God wants us reproduce, wouldn't he have a back-up plan for over population? Maybe that's where homosexuality and transsexuals fit in. You get to enjoy your God-given biological urges without mindlessly pumping out kids. It's the fundamentalists who have a kid to celebrate every time they fuck, as if it's such a noble contribution to breed more kooky cult members.LOL!!! You're right, who knows. I do agree with you on the children issue. I hate when people have kids just to see what they can do or they have 1 can barely take care of it and then add two more?????


Have a nice day

[yodajazz]

It's all about energy. A ts woman is femminine energy in a femminized male vessel. When a guy like me looks at a ts woman, what turns me on to her are her femminine aspects: her curves, her mannerisms, etc. Everything that attracts me to a gg attracts me to a ts. I look fo the same things in both. As far as the genitalia goes, I only deal with that in terms how I can make her feel in the sexual aspect of things. With g-girls when it comes to sex Ill do almost anything that she needed me to do to get an orgasim. Foreplay, oral, all of that. Me though, I like anal. Both ts and gg offer that so Ill take from both. Not from a man though and that is because a man is not represenative of the femminine energy, so naturally I wouldnt be attracted. There are many reasons why women are born as men in these modern times whether you believe them or not. But these transsexuals are women so treat them like a woman and give her whatever respect she allows you to give her.

In terms of whether or not you think its right to have sex with them thats up to you noone here can give you that answer. The only thing that i can tell you is that the religions are lower forms of of certain sets of priciples followed in the anchient world as a way to reach a higher self. Religion, unlike the principles from which they were derived, were used as a way to control the masses. There is a lot that goes in to that though, I'll go more in depth if asked to. :)

I agree with the part in the last paragraph about religions being based upon principles. That's way I would put it. Most religions have rules, to help people practice the principles. I wouldn't thow out religion, myself. I think that each religion needs to constantly look at their rules, to see if they are still serving thier principles. I constanly see people caught up in their religious 'rules' and end up doing the opposite of their overriding principles.

Here's an example; Love is one, if not the most important principle in Christianity. If the word Christian comes up, and you do not think of the concept of Love first; then there is something wrong with the practice of it that people are not living up to the principle. Here's another; Islam is ultimately about Peace. And heaven is a state of mind/being to live in those principles. Jesus said: "The kingdom of heaven is within".

So I have no major disagreements with you. In fact, I strongly agree with the first paragraph, on an intellectual and personal level. I will be using that "female energy" concept in the future.

[jcinva]

The Definitive Answer

They really aren't. No matter how badly they want it, how tightly they squeeze their fists and stamp their little feet, or how often they sue their schools and employers.

It is. Your first clue: the cock.

You probably aren't. Unless it's the only thing you're interested in.

So what? Who are you out to impress? What do you care what other people think? You're not hurting anyone, undermining the economy, or supporting terrorism. What's the problem?

Enjoy it.

[archineer]

There is probably no such thing as sin (from a religious perspective) so why worry about it?

[jcinva]

There is probably no such thing as sin (from a religious perspective) so why worry about it?

Agree. It's a safe bet the Creator of the Universe, First Essence into Existence and Omnipotent Prime Mover of All Things really doesn't give a shit where you stick your penis.

[fred41]

There is probably no such thing as sin (from a religious perspective) so why worry about it?

Agree. It's a safe bet the Creator of the Universe, First Essence into Existence and Omnipotent Prime Mover of All Things really doesn't give a shit where you stick your penis.

you're right...I don't think God cares about that.




....unless you're talking about Galactus...cause he might care.

[Nicole Dupre]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.

Thank you.

[archineer]

Thank you.

Thats ok, it had to be said.

[AmericanDream]

Why do you feel you need to be justified? If everything in your life depends on the approval of other people, what's the point? It's not really your life at all is it?
Saved me from saying the same. +1

[phobun]

In terms of if transsexuals are really female I believe every person has their own idea of what a female is, I think a mtf transsexuals is female but some may not, some mtf transsexuals may not see themselves as true females. Transsexuals are women, but the spectrum of people who are gender-variant and more in-between tend to overcall themselves more than anything else. Specifically, some people call themselves transsexual when in reality they are not: they are middle-aged intense CDs or gayboys with boobs (not that there is anything wrong with those guys, but it is not the same as being a real transsexual). Not surprisingly, it is not just their rougher physical characteristics that betray their functioning male gonads... their loud and obnoxious demeanor is not feminine either. There are a few obvious candidates that come to mind on this board.
Although I do think it is ironic that transsexuals strive to be female and be declared female and then SOME transsexuals will call a guy gay for liking a mtf transsexual.It's not a surprise to see someone not acting like a girl if they don't understand the role.

Gay guys with boobs- seriously? How insulting. I know many ts' ranging from post to non op. Mentaly non op girls are no less female than post op girls. Less disphoric yes (don't hate their cock just need to be accepted as female socially). This is just a personal observation, but I wouldn't be suprised if the varying levels of disphoria felt by the girls has a heavy societal influence. I mean most brazillian ts' are non op (by choice), asians run the whole spectrum and western women are mostly post op (or pre op waiting to become post op).

That 'loud and obnoxious demeanour' you speak of is born out of insecurity (and maybe testosterone mixed with a female brain ;) ) If you bothered to speak to them you'd realise this- they calm down open up and act like girls. Besides I know of many non op girls who don't act like that. Also just look at drunk genetic women out on a Saturday night. They act exactly the same!

Also- rougher physical characteristics????? You need to have a good look around.

Anyone would think you have some sort of homophobic self loathing.
Thanks for your personal anecdotes and thoughts but I don't agree with you. Regarding the gayboys with boobs comment, you discussed "ts' ranging from non-op to post-op" in your reply. As I specifically said, I consider TS women to be women, and I'll add that I think this is true for pre-op TS women too. I think we can agree that there are people who are gender-variant but not transsexual however, and of these, I believe that some misclassify themselves as transsexual. You can choose to feel insulted if I add that some of these people may in fact be gayboys with boobs, but then we obviously have a disagreement in opinion, and there is no use getting so incensed about it. Cheers!

You (like some militant post ops and certain sections of the medical community) are splitting hairs and you know it. The distinction is artificial and only reinforced by certain post op segments of the community, because there is a perception that having some transexuals (transgenders if you want to be anal about it) that choose not to go under the knife belittles the plight of intensely post op women. Where is the evidence that non ops or undecided pre ops are less neurologicaly female than intensly post op women?I don't know what "intensely post op women" are, but your insinuation that there is a vast, post-op conspiracy is amusing. As far as whatever you mean by "neurologicaly female", I did not know that was any valid measure, and I know of no one doing brain biopsies to determine such a thing.
I'd argue (and yes its only my opinion but so is the medical establishment definition someones opinion) that anyone who undergoes hormone therapy and sugery to live full time as a woman, and identifies as a woman should be considered transexual, regardless of srs status. This while not accurate according to certain medical definitions is how most people in the community see it. The girls I know would never consider themselves 'gay guys with boobs', they consider themselves women. Seriously why are you obsessed with insulting these people? Are you trying to say that for instance Miriam Rivera, or Vanity should not be considered women even though thats how they both define their gender?

Also a little anecdote you might find interesting, under british law any trans person can legaly change their gender regardless of srs status.Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

I'll leave the speculation about Miriam Rivera to expert forum members like Ruemue. Thanks for your opinions though.

o.k. how about transexuals with high levels of gender disphoria, i.e. girls that hate their cocks so much they need srs to stay sane. No theres not a 'vast conspiracy' quite the opposite infact. People like you insisting on strict outdated medical definitions of what is a true transexual are thankfully in the minority. I have not "insisted on strict outdated medical definitions" nor have I even quoted any medical definitions. I wrote my personal opinion, that's all. You seem very emotionally invested in this exchange.
You clearly have major homophobia issues.If personalizing this makes you feel better, knock yourself out.
Edit: i'd like to point out that Harry Benjamins original definition of a transexual does NOT require them to have srs, and the idea from some quarters that non ops are not transexual is hotly contested.Cool, but I did not quote Harry, nor am I even much of a fan of the old guy.

[archineer]

Then why are you trying to imply non ops are 'guys with boobs'? You're the one implying that girls not electing for srs are not transexual. And of course i'm very emotionaly invested in it, you're insulting close friends of mine!

[sissyrachel]

Obviously every guy here keeps their interest in Ts girls a secret otherwise we would use our real names and pictures . I think the belief that it's ok to be with a TS because the girls here were born physically male but cognitively and emotionally female as a result of a hormonal imbalance during their development in the womb and being with a TS therefore is not homosexual and against Jewdeo-Christian beliefs is a commonly used rationalization among the men on this board. This belief is what i personally use myself and my intention for starting this thread was for confirmation that i am not alone in this reasoning . I can see how some people might have taken this the wrong way and this was not my intention , so sorry if you did .



I don't think people don't use thier real names here because this is this freakin internet and this forum has some nutcases, i don't think its because this is a transsexual forum.



Yeah, I don't know why this guy is so convinced that everyone is so secretive and ashamed of their desires and feelings as he is. I think that the reason people use online identities here is the same as with every other forum. If I'm on a forum discussing comic books it's not like I'm not using my real name because I'm ashamed of anyone knowing that I like comic books, is it? And anyway, there's a reasonable number of people on here who do use real names and post pictures of themselves, so the argument is complete bullshit. Why do you assume anyone interested in transwomen keeps it a secret? What's the basis of that theory?

It's not like everyone in my life knows that I'm bisexual or interested in transwomen, but that's because it's none of their fucking business what I get up to in the bedroom. You wouldn't tell all your colleagues and acquaintances all about your straight sex life either would you? Or even friends and family in much detail? Just because some people don't tell everyone everything doesn't make it some guilty secret to be ashamed of.

[phobun]

Then why are you trying to imply non ops are 'guys with boobs'? You're the one implying that girls not electing for srs are not transexual. And of course i'm very emotionaly invested in it, you're insulting close friends of mine!There are non-op transsexuals who can't have surgery for financial, medical or other reasons. I never wrote that non-ops are not transsexual, nor did I say that non-ops are 'guys with boobs'. I wrote that there are some gender-variant people who misclassify themselves as transsexual, some of whom are middle-aged high intensity CDs or gayboys with boobs. You took that to mean anyone who does not have surgery ('non-ops' in your parlance, but certainly a very heterogenous group) are 'guys with boobs'.

I happen to believe that transsexual is not a synonym for transgender, and my opinion is just as much of an opinion as your own. I'm not going to change my opinion just because you choose to feel insulted or emotional about it.

[Nicole Dupre]

Then why are you trying to imply non ops are 'guys with boobs'? You're the one implying that girls not electing for srs are not transexual. And of course i'm very emotionaly invested in it, you're insulting close friends of mine!There are non-op transsexuals who can't have surgery for financial, medical or other reasons. I never wrote that non-ops are not transsexual, nor did I say that non-ops are 'guys with boobs'. I wrote that there are some gender-variant people who misclassify themselves as transsexual, some of whom are middle-aged high intensity CDs or gayboys with boobs. You took that to mean anyone who does not have surgery ('non-ops' in your parlance, but certainly a very heterogenous group) are 'guys with boobs'.

I happen to believe that transsexual is not a synonym for transgender, and my opinion is just as much of an opinion as your own. I'm not going to change my opinion just because you choose to feel insulted or emotional about it.

No. You're not changing your opinion because you obviously can't rationalize your presence on this forum any other way. By using terms like "gay boy", you've tipped your hand. This is a forum which celebrates pre-op transsexuals ie. "chicks with dicks"; a demographic you feel a need to marginalize. And that's a contradiction you obviously won't address.

If your "opinions" weren't obviously a lot more like cruel insults, perhaps you'd actually be able to prove even one of them. Case in point, you've jumped down my throat and called me a "man" on more than one occasion because I've disagreed with you. You've said that Morgan Bailey and I were 'more like drunken male sailors than women' because we're tattooed. Maybe you find it easier to call me a "man" over things as superficial as tattoos or using cuss words, but there's absolutely no one here who's agreeing with you. You have not one friend on this forum, and you've yet to discuss your own real-life personal experiences with any TS women. Have you ever even met one?

[Bubbas world]

only sex with post ops can be considered straight sex. if a ts has a cock and balls then its gay sex. period.

[Nicole Dupre]

only sex with post ops can be considered straight sex. if a ts has a cock and balls then its gay sex. period.

And down in Alabama, I believe it's ALL called incest. ;) lol

[rockabilly]

Can't sex just be SEX ? Does it need to be labeled ? :shrug:

[jcinva]

You have not one friend on this forum, and you've yet to discuss your own real-life personal experiences with any TS women. Have you ever even met one?

Look at Nicole, coming out swinging.

Pay no attention, Phobun. There's always a place here for someone with their nose out of the TS's asses, to cut the treacle on occasion.

[phobun]

You have not one friend on this forum, and you've yet to discuss your own real-life personal experiences with any TS women. Have you ever even met one?

Look at Nicole, coming out swinging.

Pay no attention, Phobun. There's always a place here for someone with their nose out of the TS's asses, to cut the treacle on occasion.
Oh Nicole knows I pay no attention. I had noted a paranoid flavor in some of Nicole's rants, including towards an insignificant dolt who is more idiot than savant (but who nonetheless seems to memorize and post phone numbers on this forum). So when Nicole showed me some paranoia (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=758078&highlight=paranoia#758078), I told Nicole it's Mondo Pita time for you. As I said, there is a reason why #5 from the top in this list (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=756901&highlight=Nicole+Dupre#756901) is such good parody. I avoid strangers who shout at me downtown too, so I'm being consistent in using Mondo Pita here.

[Nicole Dupre]

You have not one friend on this forum, and you've yet to discuss your own real-life personal experiences with any TS women. Have you ever even met one?

Look at Nicole, coming out swinging.

Pay no attention, Phobun. There's always a place here for someone with their nose out of the TS's asses, to cut the treacle on occasion.
Oh Nicole knows I pay no attention. I had noted a paranoid flavor in some of Nicole's rants, including towards an insignificant dolt who is more idiot than savant (but who nonetheless seems to memorize and post phone numbers on this forum). So when Nicole showed me some paranoia (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=758078&highlight=paranoia#758078), I told Nicole it's Mondo Pita time for you. As I said, there is a reason why #5 from the top in this list (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=756901&highlight=Nicole+Dupre#756901) is such good parody. I avoid strangers who shout at me downtown too, so I'm being consistent in using Mondo Pita here.

We both know you'll continue to read my every post, and remain frozen in that rigid holding pattern.

But, as for me "coming out swinging", I'm glad to see your cyber-boyfriend's stepped in to defend your honor. God knows you can't take responsibility for, and lack the strength of character to back up, anything you've said here. Chivalry isn't dead. lol

So how's that love life of yours coming along. Meet any cute guys playing W.O.W. lately? ;)

[Nicole Dupre]

Btw, can you explain this
On second thought, "real" is too generous an adjective. Just a bitch...
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=739877&highlight=hara#739877... before you run and hide? Why are you insulting and accusing me of anything? Seriously, what is your issue with me? This is like the 4th or 5th time you've insulted me out of nowhere. Why?

[GullyFoyle]

Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

You really like throwing out that strawman quite a bit in this thread. Just curious, but who do you consider to be a "gayboy with boobs"?

[jcinva]

But, as for me "coming out swinging", I'm glad to see your cyber-boyfriend's stepped in to defend your honor. God knows you can't take responsibility for, and lack the strength of character to back up, anything you've said here. Chivalry isn't dead. lol

Oh, shucks, Nicole. "Cyber-boyfriend." Guffaw!

You're so darned funny! No wonder Messrs. Barnum and Bailey are still pining for their standup Illustrated Tranny.

[Nicole Dupre]

But, as for me "coming out swinging", I'm glad to see your cyber-boyfriend's stepped in to defend your honor. God knows you can't take responsibility for, and lack the strength of character to back up, anything you've said here. Chivalry isn't dead. lol

Oh, shucks, Nicole. "Cyber-boyfriend." Guffaw!

You're so darned funny! No wonder Messrs. Barnum and Bailey are still pining for their standup Illustrated Tranny.

Thtop, you big thilly, or your new BF will get jealouth.

I do have a sharp wit, but I wasn't kidding in this particular instance. So, go ahead and do kissy-kissies with him. We won't stare. He's very shy, but I think he really likes you.

Perhaps you'd even like to join his W.O.W. Guild, Team RamRod. I hear they're a 'thassy crew of fellath'!

[Helvis2012]

Don't sweat it and you should realize, it's not a sin. God isn't going to punish you for being yourself.

[phobun]

Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

You really like throwing out that strawman quite a bit in this thread. Just curious, but who do you consider to be a "gayboy with boobs"?
Old man Orwell was spot on, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

It wouldn't be such a struggle if toadies pulled their noses out of certain asses and took off the rose-tinted shades.

[archineer]

Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

You really like throwing out that strawman quite a bit in this thread. Just curious, but who do you consider to be a "gayboy with boobs"?
Old man Orwell was spot on, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

It wouldn't be such a struggle if toadies pulled their noses out of certain asses and took off the rose-tinted shades.

My hunch is he considers any transwoman who does not wish to have srs (for reasons other than medical/financial) to be a 'gayboy with boobs'.

[phobun]

Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

You really like throwing out that strawman quite a bit in this thread. Just curious, but who do you consider to be a "gayboy with boobs"?
Old man Orwell was spot on, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

It wouldn't be such a struggle if toadies pulled their noses out of certain asses and took off the rose-tinted shades.

My hunch is he considers any transwoman who does not wish to have srs (for reasons other than medical/financial) to be a 'gayboy with boobs'.
What if your incorrect hunch was true? So what, it's a difference of opinion then... will you continue to have your smoldering hissy fits and be insulted because someone dares not share your own sense of enlightenment?

You're hunch is incorrect, but if you'd go back and read what I wrote, you'd see that for yourself. As I said, some are gayboys with boobs, but I also wrote that some are middle-aged intense CDs. But of course there are others.

As I wrote, gender-variant people who choose not to have SRS are a heterogenous group. Many are transgender and content taking hormones without surgery (some people call them TG and some say non-op TS, feel free to call the Terminology Police if you feel it's warranted). There are probably others: autogynophiles, perhaps frustrated gay men who think becoming a woman is an answer to their problems but who need to stop before it's too late. If you want to call all of these folks transsexual, then you lead the crusade.

[archineer]

Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

You really like throwing out that strawman quite a bit in this thread. Just curious, but who do you consider to be a "gayboy with boobs"?
Old man Orwell was spot on, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

It wouldn't be such a struggle if toadies pulled their noses out of certain asses and took off the rose-tinted shades.

My hunch is he considers any transwoman who does not wish to have srs (for reasons other than medical/financial) to be a 'gayboy with boobs'.
What if your incorrect hunch was true? So what, it's a difference of opinion then... will you continue to have your smoldering hissy fits and be insulted because someone dares not share your own sense of enlightenment?

You're hunch is incorrect, but if you'd go back and read what I wrote, you'd see that for yourself. As I said, some are gayboys with boobs, but I also wrote that some are middle-aged intense CDs. But of course there are others.

As I wrote, gender-variant people who choose not to have SRS are a heterogenous group. Many are transgender and content taking hormones without surgery (some people call them TG and some say non-op TS, feel free to call the Terminology Police if you feel it's warranted). There are probably others: autogynophiles, perhaps frustrated gay men who think becoming a woman is an answer to their problems but who need to stop before it's too late. If you want to call all of these folks transsexual, then you lead the crusade.

Then why do you feel the need to slander many of the girls here as 'gayboys with boobs'? Saying they are 'gender variant' or 'transgender' is still implying they're not women or lesser women than what you deem transexuals. For many if not most ts' srs is the least important (though not unimportant) part of transition.

And no I dont think gay men and fetishists that mistakenly transition are transexual.

[phobun]

Perhaps some gayboys with boobs will emigrate to dear old blighty then.

You really like throwing out that strawman quite a bit in this thread. Just curious, but who do you consider to be a "gayboy with boobs"?
Old man Orwell was spot on, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

It wouldn't be such a struggle if toadies pulled their noses out of certain asses and took off the rose-tinted shades.

My hunch is he considers any transwoman who does not wish to have srs (for reasons other than medical/financial) to be a 'gayboy with boobs'.
What if your incorrect hunch was true? So what, it's a difference of opinion then... will you continue to have your smoldering hissy fits and be insulted because someone dares not share your own sense of enlightenment?

You're hunch is incorrect, but if you'd go back and read what I wrote, you'd see that for yourself. As I said, some are gayboys with boobs, but I also wrote that some are middle-aged intense CDs. But of course there are others.

As I wrote, gender-variant people who choose not to have SRS are a heterogenous group. Many are transgender and content taking hormones without surgery (some people call them TG and some say non-op TS, feel free to call the Terminology Police if you feel it's warranted). There are probably others: autogynophiles, perhaps frustrated gay men who think becoming a woman is an answer to their problems but who need to stop before it's too late. If you want to call all of these folks transsexual, then you lead the crusade.

Then why do you feel the need to slander many of the girls here as 'gayboys with boobs'? Saying they are 'gender variant' or 'transgender' is still implying they're not women or lesser women than what you deem transexuals.
You're obsessed man, get over it. I don't feel the need to "slander many of the girls here as 'gayboys with boobs'"... I'm not pointing fingers, nor have I said "many of the girls" are that.

You're a hypersensitive priss if you read too much into the use of accepted terms like "gender-variant" or "transgender"... some might say that calling them "transsexual" is minimizing them as women, and that you should instead call them "women with a transsexual history."

You pedants who parse words need to find other things to obsess about.

[archineer]

yeah its dragging a bit im off........

[rockabilly]

The opinions of Phobun are just that , his opinions. And you know what they say about opinions. While i don't agree w/ his opinions the one thing i do agree w/ is that Clash of the Titans was a kickass movie.

[phobun]

The opinions of Phobun are just that , his opinions. And you know what they say about opinions. While i don't agree w/ his opinions the one thing i do agree w/ is that Clash of the Titants was a kickass movie.
My opinion is that Hazel Tucker is a pretty girl.

[rockabilly]

The opinions of Phobun are just that , his opinions. And you know what they say about opinions. While i don't agree w/ his opinions the one thing i do agree w/ is that Clash of the Titants was a kickass movie.
My opinion is that Hazel Tucker is a pretty girl.

We have reached common ground. However that is not an opinion , it's a FACT. :D

[jcinva]

Saying they are 'gender variant' or 'transgender' is still implying they're not women....

Arch -

The short of it is, ultimately, they're not. They may want to be, they may sue to be called it, they may denounce their maleness to the death bed, but again - they're not. Once X meets Y, at time of conception, it's a done deal, despite all the pharmacologicals and surgeries on earth. At least with current technologies. I'm pretty sure, with enough money, I could get a faux vagina sewn into my forearm - doesn't change what I am.

We may deferentially give them the courtesy of the delusion, either out of ignorance, sociability, threat of lawsuit, or even in an attempt to curry their favor or get into their pants. It may even be politically expedient to grant them all of the rights and privileges of "womanhood," along the lines of: "Yah, yah, whatever. You're a full-fledged woman. Now shut the hell up, stop with the picketing and petitions, and pay your taxes into the system like a good docile citizen." But let's not let the social niceties blind us to the realities.

Life can be hard. Like Mr. Prine sang, "You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't." Alas, they ain't. They may be nice, mean, hot, sexy, smart, dumb, cabinet level advisors or hookers, but women, they ain't.

Personally, I know, deep in my soul, I was meant to be born a 6'2" white guy, heir to the Mars fortune, with a smooth R&B voice and an NBA jump shot, and a cock like Mr. Ed's, but so far, no such luck.

Most of the dialog here - whose dick is prettiest, whose dick is longest, how much you'd like to suck that one - it's gay. And it's simple denial to assert it isn't. Guy sucking on a cock - gay, no matter how you dress it up.

What makes this all so very laughable is the TS's tossing out "gay" like an insult, as though it doesn't apply to them, and the men dodging and denying it, like their sucking or longing to suck a cock, isn't also.

For a group that pretends to abhor "homophobia," this board has got to be homphobia Ground Zero.

Bust on through all the Kubler-Ross stages and just accept it - it's gay. And when the world doesn't collapse around your ears for having a gay fantasy, pick up your coat and get your ass to work. The mortgage is still due in a week. "Chop wood, carry water."

[Teydyn]

The short of it is, ultimately, they're not.
Wow, you are quite the douchebag, arent you?


Once X meets Y, at time of conception, it's a done deal
Actually, its not.
The physical blueprint of the human body is female, people with XY chromosomes turn male due to hormones during the development of the body. What if the hormone isnt produced at the time the brain develops?
Male body, female brain.

There are people out there who have XY chromosomes, but their bodies have no receptors for testosterone & co, so they developed as females. They are man too after your definition?

[jcinva]

Wow, you are quite the douchebag, arent you?

No. Just a pragmatist. Your immediate jump to ad hominem attack, however, does suggest you may be.

As for the rest of your argument, whether you're a learned and degreed geneticist, or simply a Discovery Channel buff, even granting arguendo, there are, walking among us, some of these trans people with faulty testosterone receptors, etc., etc., etc., I think it's a safe bet that 99.9% of the "trans" people on the board ain't that, either - hence the need for surgeries and pharmaceuticals.

Out of a population of several billion, it's a poor argument that holds up the one in ten million case and calls it proof for the entire class.

Why they choose what they've chosen - I'm guessing there are as many reasons as there are people.

By the same reasoning, I don't think we need to create an entire special legal class or weave a legal fictive status for two headed conjoined twins - and call them something else entirely - because of one or two cases in the world.

I get that most of the guys on this board are absolutely rooted in the idea that these are women, so that they may, without guilt or challenge to their own masculinity, fantasize about sucking or fucking, or getting fucked by them. And, as a general point, we've got a nice social agreement here along the lines of, "I'll say what you do, or want to do with these 'women' isn't gay, if you'll agree that what I do, or want to do, with them isn't." And for the most part, it works.

Except you have to resort to such tortured linguistic constructs as "her cock" and "girl's dick," which are going to get you a lot of funny looks out there in the real world.

But when one of the guys or TGs on the board shatters that social contract by tossing out the "gay" epithet, then it bears regrounding and reminding - hey, all of this, this whole thing - it's all gay. So fuck the "gay" bombing. There's enough "gay" here to go around for everyone.

And, when one of the guys on this board is having deep pangs of remorse and regret over fantasizing about sucking a cock or having sucked one. It may bear reminding that, social agreements aside, yes - it is gay. And, provided you're not breaking faith with someone else, or bringing home your cock teeming with bacteria, it's okay. Relax, take the gun out of your mouth, and your head out of the oven. Life goes on.

Now, with that in mind, given the chance to munch on Kimber James from head to toe and ride until dawn breaks, sign me up. Gay? Yes - check out the penis. But, hubba hubba! What the fuck. Call me whatever you want - I'm in.

[archineer]

Saying they are 'gender variant' or 'transgender' is still implying they're not women....

Arch -

The short of it is, ultimately, they're not. They may want to be, they may sue to be called it, they may denounce their maleness to the death bed, but again - they're not. Once X meets Y, at time of conception, it's a done deal, despite all the pharmacologicals and surgeries on earth. At least with current technologies. I'm pretty sure, with enough money, I could get a faux vagina sewn into my forearm - doesn't change what I am.

We may deferentially give them the courtesy of the delusion, either out of ignorance, sociability, threat of lawsuit, or even in an attempt to curry their favor or get into their pants. It may even be politically expedient to grant them all of the rights and privileges of "womanhood," along the lines of: "Yah, yah, whatever. You're a full-fledged woman. Now shut the hell up, stop with the picketing and petitions, and pay your taxes into the system like a good docile citizen." But let's not let the social niceties blind us to the realities.

Life can be hard. Like Mr. Prine sang, "You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't." Alas, they ain't. They may be nice, mean, hot, sexy, smart, dumb, cabinet level advisors or hookers, but women, they ain't.

Personally, I know, deep in my soul, I was meant to be born a 6'2" white guy, heir to the Mars fortune, with a smooth R&B voice and an NBA jump shot, and a cock like Mr. Ed's, but so far, no such luck.

Most of the dialog here - whose dick is prettiest, whose dick is longest, how much you'd like to suck that one - it's gay. And it's simple denial to assert it isn't. Guy sucking on a cock - gay, no matter how you dress it up.

What makes this all so very laughable is the TS's tossing out "gay" like an insult, as though it doesn't apply to them, and the men dodging and denying it, like their sucking or longing to suck a cock, isn't also.

For a group that pretends to abhor "homophobia," this board has got to be homphobia Ground Zero.

Bust on through all the Kubler-Ross stages and just accept it - it's gay. And when the world doesn't collapse around your ears for having a gay fantasy, pick up your coat and get your ass to work. The mortgage is still due in a week. "Chop wood, carry water."

I am refering to them as women from a social point of veiw and out of respect. From a strictly biological veiwpoint you are mostly right, although as transexualism is a form of neural intersex it is not quite as cut and dried as you make out.

BTW I don't care wether sex is straight, gay or whatever, I have no issues or hangups (as i've said before im bi/poly/pan) and am too out for my own good, as the girls I date are usualy stealth.

[yodajazz]

Saying they are 'gender variant' or 'transgender' is still implying they're not women....

Arch -

The short of it is, ultimately, they're not. They may want to be, they may sue to be called it, they may denounce their maleness to the death bed, but again - they're not. Once X meets Y, at time of conception, it's a done deal, despite all the pharmacologicals and surgeries on earth. At least with current technologies. I'm pretty sure, with enough money, I could get a faux vagina sewn into my forearm - doesn't change what I am.

We may deferentially give them the courtesy of the delusion, either out of ignorance, sociability, threat of lawsuit, or even in an attempt to curry their favor or get into their pants. It may even be politically expedient to grant them all of the rights and privileges of "womanhood," along the lines of: "Yah, yah, whatever. You're a full-fledged woman. Now shut the hell up, stop with the picketing and petitions, and pay your taxes into the system like a good docile citizen." But let's not let the social niceties blind us to the realities.

Life can be hard. Like Mr. Prine sang, "You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't." Alas, they ain't. They may be nice, mean, hot, sexy, smart, dumb, cabinet level advisors or hookers, but women, they ain't.

Personally, I know, deep in my soul, I was meant to be born a 6'2" white guy, heir to the Mars fortune, with a smooth R&B voice and an NBA jump shot, and a cock like Mr. Ed's, but so far, no such luck.

Most of the dialog here - whose dick is prettiest, whose dick is longest, how much you'd like to suck that one - it's gay. And it's simple denial to assert it isn't. Guy sucking on a cock - gay, no matter how you dress it up.

What makes this all so very laughable is the TS's tossing out "gay" like an insult, as though it doesn't apply to them, and the men dodging and denying it, like their sucking or longing to suck a cock, isn't also.

For a group that pretends to abhor "homophobia," this board has got to be homphobia Ground Zero.

Bust on through all the Kubler-Ross stages and just accept it - it's gay. And when the world doesn't collapse around your ears for having a gay fantasy, pick up your coat and get your ass to work. The mortgage is still due in a week. "Chop wood, carry water."

I too think you are over-simplifying the concept of gender, and sexual orientation labeling. The truth is that secondary sexual characteristics are more important than sexual organs, in determining attraction. And I think that you and many others overestimate the relative importance of cocks in the attraction to trans women. I did an unscientific survey of the first 100 thread titles here. Maybe 10 thread titles were cock related. So that would be 10 percent.

I'm not arguing that people here are strictly straight eithier. I say that this forum proves the inadequacy of the current sexual labeling system. In general simple concepts do help people better mentally organize, this thing we call life. However, it is obvious here on this forum, that simple terms confuse a complex issue, rather than help. So why even make it an issue to try and squeeze a large concept into a small box.

[jcinva]

I too think you are over-simplifying the concept of gender, and sexual orientation labeling.

Possibly. I have found merit in Occam's razor. The simpler explanation is often the better. In my model, you come out with a whole lot of gay sex, talk, and fantasies on this board. Once you get over that, things are pretty normal and predictable.

The other model, you come out with such convoluted notions as "her cock" and "girl's penis." You have to draw a line between the queens, the cross dressers, the TVs, the full-fledged TSs, and the post-op TSs. You may need to further slice between the non-hormone taking, the hormone taking, and the castrated. Then you need to distinguish between the natural, i.e., hormone breasts, and the implants. And, don't forget the ever-elusive, "Club Kid."

Then you have to decide what you can do with which type. Kiss, nuzzle the breasts, handjob, let them suck you, you suck them, and then the big one: top or bottom.

If you put all of these into a separate compartment, and polled (no pun intended) the guys and the TGs on this board, let alone the general public, to mark each combination of lifestyle + act as straight or gay, I expect you'd get about as many different responses as participants. And most of those would run along the lines of, "What I do with transsexuals is perfectly straight, but that other shit - that's fucking gay, dude"

So - you can play it along the model of it's anybody's opinion, which is hardly useful as a taxonomy or even for having a conversation, since you aren't communicating anything, because there's no accepted definition or even consensus.

Or, you can simply accept that:

1. Cock in a guy's mouth is gay sex, regardless what the cock's owner thinks, believes, feels, aspires to, or was wearing on the occasion that those two met, legs shaved or hairy, same with upper lip, big tits or small, hormones or not, or what it reads on any government issued identification. You don't need to inquire into the mindset, personal history, or wardrobe of the suckee, to make the call. Is it a cock? Yes. Gay. Next!

2. Gay is no problem. It is what it is.

Much simpler. And of course, exceptions can be made for the truly, genuinely anomalous, e.g., the testerone receptor disabled, but of which there aren't nearly so many as would like us to believe there are.

[yodajazz]

What if the cock was an artificial cock worn by a female? I agree that many here, try to draw lines between gay and straight, at many different places. But that's why I say that the terms should not be used around here.

But people don't have a problem, with understanding subtlety in other areas. Let's use an analogy of the color red. Everyone knows what is red. But there are many shades of red mixed with other colors. Most people understand that when someone says red, it could be a red mixed with other hues. People do sometimes ask for other clarifiers when asking about colors. My point is that if a person feels they are straight here, we should understand that it is mixed with another hue, so to speak. Even in your definition of straight and gay there could easily be borderline situations. Suppose the male touches it while he is giving anal?
People have the right to self define, unless it is a legal situation.

One more analogy would be how people describe their dog's breed. If someone says their dog is a collie, we should know that it might not be a pure bred collie. Some may ask if it is a pure breed, but it is still acceptable to decribe a dog's breed when it is not pure bred.

Lastly, I agree that it is okay to be gay. But, people still have misconceptions about sexual terms. We haven't even brought up the term 'bisexual' yet.

[Teydyn]

I have found merit in Occam's razor. The simpler explanation is often the better.
Is there a simpler explanation for your behaviour then "douchebag"? :)

[jcinva]

Is there a simpler explanation for your behaviour then "douchebag"? :)

I'm going to guess you just picked up that word recently, say on your ride home on the short bus.

Hurray for you Teydyn. You learned a new word. But remember, some words aren't nice words. Can you remember that, Teydyn? Douchebag is not a nice word.

And, in general, you should probably not chime in when adults are speaking.

[rockabilly]

Damn you jcinva and your Vulcan logic! lol

[Nicole Dupre]

Damn you jcinva and your Vulcan logic! lol

I'm about to shift gears on this forum, and I seriously suspect that I will never waste my time talking to you again. But one last word of advice: grow a pair.

You don't know who's ass to lick first. If you're not sucking up to any TS with a pulse who posts here, you're trying to do the male bonding thing with the hater guys who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. Point blank: you spend way to much time here to be evenly remotely sane, and almost always have jack shit to contribute.

Btw, I don't believe the story about your grandmother or the family members who found your TS porn stash and beat you up. All lies, all sad, all day, all night, all year. Stop eating so much, get some damn exercise, and develop some social skills, you lard-ass mama's boy virgin.

Now, I want to point out that I am not wasting another precious moment of my time here doing anything but promoting. That way, I deliver the goods to those who dig 'em. To those of you who don't, go fuck yourselves.

With that out of the way, I present a special blog for you gentlemen who know how you like it. God bless you all! XOXO

Oh, and I will have another tres cool blog later on this evening about Sunny's party which I attended at the beginning of the month. Hint, hint: I had a BLAST! Look for that a lil' later. For now, I'm Audi.

http://www.nikki-dupre.com/services/dont-you-worry-sweetheart-it-will-be-our-little-secret/

[archineer]

What if the cock was an artificial cock worn by a female? I agree that many here, try to draw lines between gay and straight, at many different places. But that's why I say that the terms should not be used around here.

But people don't have a problem, with understanding subtlety in other areas. Let's use an analogy of the color red. Everyone knows what is red. But there are many shades of red mixed with other colors. Most people understand that when someone says red, it could be a red mixed with other hues. People do sometimes ask for other clarifiers when asking about colors. My point is that if a person feels they are straight here, we should understand that it is mixed with another hue, so to speak. Even in your definition of straight and gay there could easily be borderline situations. Suppose the male touches it while he is giving anal?
People have the right to self define, unless it is a legal situation.

One more analogy would be how people describe their dog's breed. If someone says their dog is a collie, we should know that it might not be a pure bred collie. Some may ask if it is a pure breed, but it is still acceptable to decribe a dog's breed when it is not pure bred.

Lastly, I agree that it is okay to be gay. But, people still have misconceptions about sexual terms. We haven't even brought up the term 'bisexual' yet.

You're right its a sort of bisexuality, its not gay in the conventional sense.

[rockabilly]

WOW , That's a lotta testoterone for a lady , maybe you need to lose a pair. I don't care what you think Nicole , i can come here as much as i please. The only person that seems to have a problem is you. As for you not believing about my family problems , big deal. I think your mad that i didn't kiss your ass enough lol. Goodnight Nicole and i hope your site goes well.

[Teydyn]

Is there a simpler explanation for your behaviour then "douchebag"? :)
You still havent given an explanation that is simpler for your behaviour, so its true?





But remember, some words aren't nice words.
Yeah, and

The short of it is, ultimately, they're not.

they may denounce their maleness to the death bed, but again - they're not.

We may deferentially give them the courtesy of the delusion

It may even be politically expedient to grant them all of the rights and privileges of "womanhood,"

but women, they ain't.
are nice words to the girls?


And, in general, you should probably not chime in when adults are speaking.
Then start to "speak" if you are so great, instead of throwing thinly veiled insults around, yes?

[speedstick112]

This is an interesting thread.

[Nicole Dupre]

WOW , That's a lotta testoterone for a lady , maybe you need to lose a pair. I don't care what you think Nicole , i can come here as much as i please. The only person that seems to have a problem is you. As for you not believing about my family problems , big deal. I think your mad that i didn't kiss your ass enough lol. Goodnight Nicole and i hope your site goes well.

Don't patronize me the way you'd want me to patronize you. I'm not impressed. And I never asked you to kiss OR crawl up my ass with any of that needy, smothering bullshit of yours. Now if you want to kid around and get buddy-buddy with some hater who can't bring himself to think of us as women, be my guest. But imo, you need to fuck off. Case-closed, Mr Innocent Nice Guy. You're a bland virgin who picks his ass and shoves food in his face all day, quoting movies. You're not even close to being BF material. You're in a self-created downward spiral, and I'm not enabling you one little bit.

And how you spend your time is none of my concern, but when you repeatedly pester me with horseshit like, "Why won't you give me the chance to prove my love, Nicole?", and "Why don't you opt for a nice guy like me, Nicole?", and I tell you nicely "No, thanks", wtf do you want me to do? Send you a goddamn smoke signal? Grow up, you overgrown goon. I'm not babying you. Go ask your imaginary grandma for a cookie or a kiss on the cheek. I'm not your mommy or your GF. And then you had the nerve to send me those faggy self-pity PMs? What does it take to say, "no, thanks" in a way that sinks into your brain properly? Please tell me.

You give almost every girl here the creeps, whether they've told you yet or not. So maybe you should be thanking me for my honesty, but you show your true colors and throw a low blow about how I should "lose my testicles"? Hey. Go piss up a rope. You've completely fucked up with me, and landed on my shitlist forever. So go suck jcinva's dick, fatso. You're not my type.

[droog]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?
who cares dude. get over it.

[jcinva]

So go suck jcinva's dick, fatso.

Wow, Nicole! First you accuse Phobun of being my cyber boyfriend. Then you invite Rockabilly to suck my dick - which, I have to say, I think it a bit presumptuous on your part.

Not everyone who's tired of your angry abusive bullshit is kissing my ass, hun. Some of them are just, well, tired of your angry abusive bullshit.

And, for the record, no, I'm not going to meet any "cute guys" playing W.o.W. The cute guys all play for the Alliance, and I'm a Horde man, myself.

[Nicole Dupre]

So go suck jcinva's dick, fatso.

Wow, Nicole! First you accuse Phobun of being my cyber boyfriend. Then you invite Rockabilly to suck my dick - which, I have to say, I think it a bit presumptuous on your part.

Not everyone who's tired of your angry abusive bullshit is kissing my ass, hun. Some of them are just, well, tired of your angry abusive bullshit.

And, for the record, no, I'm not going to meet any "cute guys" playing W.o.W. The cute guys all play for the Alliance, and I'm a Horde man, myself.

Well there you go! Play with your little computer toys, and I will continue to abuse and pair up eligible gay bachelors like yourselves! How fab!

Just don't take any wooden cartoon cyber cloaks, or spiffy cartoon cyber gloves. Ok? We wouldn't want you to unleash your manly "Horde"on the "Alliance"! You might get carpal tunnel syndrome and become incapable of jerking off properly. Ok? ;)

And may all of you adventures lead you to escape your pent-up sexual frustration and your anger over being unloved by your mommy! Ta-ta, you studly cyber-swashbuckler! ;) Kissy, kissy! 8)

[phobun]

And, for the record, no, I'm not going to meet any "cute guys" playing W.o.W. The cute guys all play for the Alliance, and I'm a Horde man, myself.
Ah, the W.O.W. gag. Nicole did a little google search and found that kid's player profile. Using a half-paranoid, half-baked noodle, Nicole put 2 and 2 together and rationally surmised that we must be the same phobun.

Makes sense... except for that kid, a fire-breathing Smaug colored with green ink is fantasy. Not true for me.

[Nicole Dupre]

And, for the record, no, I'm not going to meet any "cute guys" playing W.o.W. The cute guys all play for the Alliance, and I'm a Horde man, myself.
Ah, the W.O.W. gag. Nicole did a little google search and found that kid's player profile. Using a half-paranoid, half-baked noodle, Nicole put 2 and 2 together and rationally surmised that we must be the same phobun.

Makes sense... except for that kid, a fire-breathing Smaug colored with green ink is fantasy. Not true for me.

Whatever you say, gay boy. As far as I'm concerned, you remain anon and are likely to be full of shit. You probably play as a female character anyway. Now stay put right here like a good little bitch, and worry about everyone's sex life but your own. We're all very impressed. lol

[jcinva]

People have the right to self define, unless it is a legal situation.

Well - that seems to be the crux of the disagreement, or at least in part. I suggest that the right to "self-define" is even more restricted than that. At some point, if your self-definition veers too far from the general consensus of other people's definition of you, you run the risk of being branded delusional.

And the right to self-define your own gender? That's certainly not a "natural right." More like a contender for a new socio-political right, like the "right" to a job, or the "right" to housing, or the "right" to healthcare. This one is by no means a done deal. For one thing, there's all sorts of details to be worked out, such as minefields from Day 1.

"Mr. and Mrs. Johnson. Congratulations. It's a boy!"

"Whoa! Slow down there! We're not sure of that. Don't mark anything in there, yet. We'll let the baby fill that in on its 18th birthday."

"But, look! Your son has a penis! See?"

"Son!?! How dare you try to impose your traditional notions of gender on my child! Get thee behind me, Satan!"

And, in any event, we're talking about realities, not political constructs, which are based in money, power, and convenience.

This one just seems like too simple a call to fuck it up by trying to impose some sort of convoluted quantum theory of sexual uncertainly. Penis on penis. That's the same sexual organ. You got yer "homo." Rubbing, stroking, sucking - you got your sexual stimulation. There's the "sexual." That's a "homo-sexual" act, a/k/a "gay" in the vernacular.

You take some of these photos on the board and crop off all the cruft - the bullwhip, the feather, the chicken, the boa, the corset, etc. - and just leave penis in a guy's mouth and 99% of the population will nod - "oh, yeah - that's gay."

I agree that one homosexual act doesn't a flamer make. I'll concede a spectrum on "orientation." But right there - as a snapshot, on October 21st, 2009, at 9.00 am, between Mr. A and TG B., you have one, certified homosexual event. And let's be clear - the "gayness" of the act doesn't run just one way - it's homosexual for both parties.

Ordinarily, I'm not so caught up in the this whole gay / not gay thing. I'm willing to enjoy the illusion because some of these "ladies" are freakin' hot! You girls know who you are. :wink:

That illusion is shattered, however, when some guy thumps his chest about how what he likes to do is straight, almost invariably follows by "but dude - what you're talking about: totally gay!"

And, just as often - a certain group of TGs here get their backs up and almost the first insult they think to toss out is... "gay."

Case in point:

Whatever you say, gay boy.

The absurdity, of course, is not that you shouldn't call someone gay because it's hurtful and mean and not politically correct, but rather the person quoted shouldn't call someone else gay because, hello, Pot? Kettle calling.

Glass houses and all that. I'd think in their situation, I'd be a tad more circumspect about going straight for the nuclear button when serving up an insult. Even our loveable simpleton Teydyn's "douchebag" doesn't evoke the involuntary - "You've got a lot of chutzpah calling someone else gay..."

As a rule, I'm willing to play nice and charming and conform to the mores of the HA community, but when someone starts flaming with the "G" word, it's time to serve up a little reminder, Arthur Kirkland-style, "He's gay? You're gay! This whole board is gay! It's all gay! It's 'Let's Make a Deal!'"

[archineer]

I'm not gay. :roll:

[phobun]

Damn you jcinva and your Vulcan logic! lol

I'm about to shift gears on this forum, and I seriously suspect that I will never waste my time talking to you again. But one last word of advice: grow a pair.

You don't know who's ass to lick first. If you're not sucking up to any TS with a pulse who posts here, you're trying to do the male bonding thing with the hater guys who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. Point blank: you spend way to much time here to be evenly remotely sane, and almost always have jack shit to contribute.

Btw, I don't believe the story about your grandmother or the family members who found your TS porn stash and beat you up. All lies, all sad, all day, all night, all year. Stop eating so much, get some damn exercise, and develop some social skills, you lard-ass mama's boy virgin.

Now, I want to point out that I am not wasting another precious moment of my time here doing anything but promoting. That way, I deliver the goods to those who dig 'em. To those of you who don't, go fuck yourselves.

With that out of the way, I present a special blog for you gentlemen who know how you like it. God bless you all! XOXO

Oh, and I will have another tres cool blog later on this evening about Sunny's party which I attended at the beginning of the month. Hint, hint: I had a BLAST! Look for that a lil' later. For now, I'm Audi.

http://www.nikki-dupre.com/services/dont-you-worry-sweetheart-it-will-be-our-little-secret/

There is a feminized old male shrew,
Who needs the nest whence flew the cuckoo.
Rants like Cheswick in drag,
Shrieks like Ratched the hag,
Pitching snuff while bidding an adieu.

[jcinva]

I'm not gay. :roll:

Maybe you don't think so.

Just one other point, because I've more than exhausted the subject. While the transgendered "ladies" on the board deny their maleness and swear before God and man that they are women, their real feelings about the men and, by logical extension, themselves seem to come out with crystal clarity when they get their panties in a wad.

The guys can fawn over them, call them ladies and girls and women, flirt online, buy the videos, subscribe to the web sites, or make appointments to have sex with them. And they're all very re-assuring that what the guys do or would like to do is perfectly straight.

But when the "shit be on," it's all


YES LET THESE FAGGOT ASS HOMOSEXUALS PUMP YOUR HEAD UP


you cock hound shit starter... you are one sad fag



.... but i do think a good portion of men on this and other TS boards ...[will] take a small framed man in makeup to justify their ease into full on faggotry


[on "faggots"] a spades a spades no matter how u sugarcoat it.... get on ur knees and take it like a man already

and of course, the more polite:


Whatever you say, gay boy.

So, for at least some of the "girls," they're okay with taking the cash, but there's only one reason a guy would take or fantasize about taking a cock in his mouth or do any number of things a man would do with a TG.

That's how they really regard you.

And if, by their own assertion, taking that TS cock in his mouth makes a man gay - know what that makes the cock's owner? A dude.

Q.E.D.

When all's said and done, it's just simpler to put aside, as it's been called, the sugarcoating and accept that they're men; the fantasies are gay; and it is what it is. No big deal.

[blonde_sweetheart]

jcinva , your really ignorant.

[yodajazz]

I'm not gay. :roll:

Maybe you don't think so.

Just one other point, because I've more than exhausted the subject. While the transgendered "ladies" on the board deny their maleness and swear before God and man that they are women, their real feelings about the men and, by logical extension, themselves seem to come out with crystal clarity when they get their panties in a wad.

The guys can fawn over them, call them ladies and girls and women, flirt online, buy the videos, subscribe to the web sites, or make appointments to have sex with them. And they're all very re-assuring that what the guys do or would like to do is perfectly straight.

But when the "shit be on," it's all


YES LET THESE FAGGOT ASS HOMOSEXUALS PUMP YOUR HEAD UP


you cock hound shit starter... you are one sad fag



.... but i do think a good portion of men on this and other TS boards ...[will] take a small framed man in makeup to justify their ease into full on faggotry


[on "faggots"] a spades a spades no matter how u sugarcoat it.... get on ur knees and take it like a man already

and of course, the more polite:


Whatever you say, gay boy.

So, for at least some of the "girls," they're okay with taking the cash, but there's only one reason a guy would take or fantasize about taking a cock in his mouth or do any number of things a man would do with a TG.

That's how they really regard you.

And if, by their own assertion, taking that TS cock in his mouth makes a man gay - know what that makes the cock's owner? A dude.

Q.E.D.

When all's said and done, it's just simpler to put aside, as it's been called, the sugarcoating and accept that they're men; the fantasies are gay; and it is what it is. No big deal.
Well you have made a strong point. Especially if those quoted represent a large number of trans women. I can't say etiher way if they do. The three that you quoted are known here for throwing that dreaded f word around. To the point there had to be a threat to ban people for using the the word. My guess, is that those three represent only part of the spectrum of ts women.

The three you mentioned are not the only ones, just the major offenders. There was one former poster that caused me to question my entire life. she is a post op that post under the name tghtpussybitch. She was very open about her life. She admitted to starting out indentifying as a gay, then as transexual, and then a woman. She used the term "gay cock loving tranny chasers" a lot. The thing that bothered me the most is that not one woman objected to her using that term. But to me she was a living contridiction. She herself was bisexual, but a man who wanted to have a pre-op and he gg at the same time was gay to her. She just could not grasp the concept of bisexuality, even though she was one herself.

I do have some comments about your earlier post, that I will get to at another time. Just so you know, in my own belief system everyone would really be on a spectrum of bisexuality. What people call straight, is really means mostly or predominately straight.

[Nicole Dupre]

I love it! :lol:

I hate to break the new to you, fellas, but GGs also label you 'fags' behind your backs OFTEN. You simply haven't spent any time on our side of the fence to know the extent to which you're labeled as homosexuals by women. It happens after you get your hair cut, after you buy clothing, after you've been served a meal, in the women's locker room at the gym, and the list goes on and on and on.

But women don't call you "fags" because we are, but because YOU ARE. And after rubbing elbows with and getting to know so many gay men, especially in the early stages of our lives because society conveniently labeled us as "gay"; transsexuals can easily spot you from a mile away. It's what you don't say that often reveals your T. We can practically smell the fear of being outed on you. We can see it in your eyes. And with every post you make, jcinva and Phobun, you both stick out like two sore thumbs. I'm sorry, babies, but you are BOTH gay. We don't really care either way, but stop insulting everyone and repeatedly embarrassing yourselves. Game over. 8)

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm done with this thread, and this nonsense about who's gay. We have two men on a forum devoted almost exclusively to pre-op transsexuals trying have their cake and eat it too. Well, we know what they are, whether their hate-filled hearts can own up to it or not. Let the village idiot, Rockabilly, befriend them. He's as socially retarded and hard-up for attention as they are anyway.

Ciao, girlfriends. ;)

:lol:

[jcinva]

We have two men on a forum devoted almost exclusively to pre-op transsexuals trying have their cake and eat it too. Well, we know what they are, whether their hate-filled hearts can own up to it or not.

Right on cue. Thanks, Nicole.

There you have it, fellas - you may self-define your own sexuality and your own interpretation of what you do with the "ladies" as you please, but so far as Nicole is concerned, and no doubt several others, your participation on HA, your interest in pre-ops is dispositive: GAY.

And, if she believes a man's interest in pre-op transsexuals is gay, that means Nicole regards pre-op transsexuals as what, again?

I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world of transgendrification and pansexuality is strange and frightening to me, but there is one thing I do know - based on the above statement, the only reasonable conclusion is that, in "her" heart of hearts, Nicole considers all pre-ops, including herself, to be men.

Thank you.

[russtafa]

hey im happy loveing tgirl dick and i dont think of myself as being straight and the girl i go out with is thankful of that i dont have a hangup in that direction.gay is great

[BellaBellucci]

I hate to chime in so late but I got a request to speak up from a friend who shall go unnamed.

Transsexuals are women because their gender is female. Until they have SRS, their sex, breasts aside, is still male. Sex and gender are two completely different concepts despite what one poster said about children being labeled male or female from birth based solely on genitalia. I think it's reasonable when it comes to children, but not immutable in adulthood.

To me, that means that a relationship with a TS is a straight relationship, but the sex a man and a TS share IS technically gay and despite my never having self-identified as gay, I'm perfectly OK with that.

Why isn't everyone else?

~BB~

[SarahG]

Until they have SRS, their sex, breasts aside, is still male.

I don't like that argument, if you travel down that road what's to keep someone from saying "even after srs you're not really female because you're just creating a neo-vagina that is like a GG vagina in some, but not all respects"?

It also worries me that defining sex based on genitalia would set people up for scenarios where, say, being born with ambiguous genitalia -through no fault of their own- would leave them in a legal limbo for everything that the law uses sex-status for (whether we're talking about marriage rights or just identification papers).

It would be pretty crappy to go to someone who is IS and say "hey, since you're genitalia is ambiguous, even though you have a feminine gender, even though you live as a girl & have always lived as a girl- we're going to make you walk around with this DL that says male until you get your abnormally large clit surgically cut down. If you lose the ability to orgasm from the surgical scarring, oh well- deal with it."

Not everyone is born with strictly an "all male" or "all female" set of genitalia. For humans sex is a complex characteristic that includes far more than genitals- at least, that's what I'd argue.

[archineer]

I'm not gay. :roll:

Maybe you don't think so.

Just one other point, because I've more than exhausted the subject. While the transgendered "ladies" on the board deny their maleness and swear before God and man that they are women, their real feelings about the men and, by logical extension, themselves seem to come out with crystal clarity when they get their panties in a wad.

The guys can fawn over them, call them ladies and girls and women, flirt online, buy the videos, subscribe to the web sites, or make appointments to have sex with them. And they're all very re-assuring that what the guys do or would like to do is perfectly straight.

But when the "shit be on," it's all


YES LET THESE FAGGOT ASS HOMOSEXUALS PUMP YOUR HEAD UP


you cock hound shit starter... you are one sad fag



.... but i do think a good portion of men on this and other TS boards ...[will] take a small framed man in makeup to justify their ease into full on faggotry


[on "faggots"] a spades a spades no matter how u sugarcoat it.... get on ur knees and take it like a man already

and of course, the more polite:


Whatever you say, gay boy.

So, for at least some of the "girls," they're okay with taking the cash, but there's only one reason a guy would take or fantasize about taking a cock in his mouth or do any number of things a man would do with a TG.

That's how they really regard you.

And if, by their own assertion, taking that TS cock in his mouth makes a man gay - know what that makes the cock's owner? A dude.

Q.E.D.

When all's said and done, it's just simpler to put aside, as it's been called, the sugarcoating and accept that they're men; the fantasies are gay; and it is what it is. No big deal.

Yawn! It was a joke. However if i was gay i'd be drawn to only to masculine men. So no I am not gay.

However my gay mate thinks so (off my fb page this morning):

'Like people who like transexuals thinking they are not gay lol You know who you are! Hehe luv ya really'

[BellaBellucci]

Until they have SRS, their sex, breasts aside, is still male.

I don't like that argument, if you travel down that road what's to keep someone from saying "even after srs you're not really female because you're just creating a neo-vagina that is like a GG vagina in some, but not all respects"?

It also worries me that defining sex based on genitalia would set people up for scenarios where, say, being born with ambiguous genitalia -through no fault of their own- would leave them in a legal limbo for everything that the law uses sex-status for (whether we're talking about marriage rights or just identification papers).

It would be pretty crappy to go to someone who is IS and say "hey, since you're genitalia is ambiguous, even though you have a feminine gender, even though you live as a girl & have always lived as a girl- we're going to make you walk around with this DL that says male until you get your abnormally large clit surgically cut down. If you lose the ability to orgasm from the surgical scarring, oh well- deal with it."

Not everyone is born with strictly an "all male" or "all female" set of genitalia. For humans sex is a complex characteristic that includes far more than genitals- at least, that's what I'd argue.

I'd love to agree with you, but I can't. I think that anybody that would argue that SRS does not make one sexually female would also attempt to make the usually ill-fated chromosome argument and they're both wrong. I think that since SRS at least removes male sexual ability, it should always legally make a person's sex female. The argument that it doesn't is usually rooted in bigotry and not science or reason and using the words male or female to describe genitalia does nothing to change that. The words only provide a fairly accurate description of what one has 'down there.' In a perfect world, that would be each individual's private business, but that's not the system in which we live - which is why so many of us, despite having a penis, also have a 'F' on their Driver's License. It's the best compromise for which we can hope under our current system; our genitalia is sometimes legally important and therefore must be described accurately under the law in certain cases.

A change of gender is easier on the other hand. It is recognized in nearly every state in the U.S. and in many other countries after just a few counseling sessions. That's why I hate shows like Maury and Jerry who insist on calling transsexuals 'men.' Even if one's sex is male it doesn't make them a 'man' since that word describes a gender concept, not one of a physical sex.

Somebody born with ambiguous genitalia generally has their parents choose their gender and sex for their birth certificate (and can later change it) because, as I said, in our system it must one or the other. I personally find this unnecessary because most schools and employers are co-ed, but that's just the way it is. The only time genitalia really becomes important is in regards to the penal system (no pun intended!), but again it's because of sexual ability and not whether one has an 'innie' or an 'outtie' as I like to call them.

In short, I'd have to argue that human sexuality is not defined by anything more than genitalia, but gender most certainly is. If anything, your take on this is an argument for a third sex and/or gender, not a redefinition of the current two.

~BB~

[SarahG]

I think that anybody that would argue that SRS does not make one sexually female would also attempt to make the usually ill-fated chromosome argument and they're both wrong.

Actually it would be very easy to argue that a vagina created by SRS is quite different from a GG's vagina. It's just not the same. It's pretty damn close, a miracle of medical science imho- but we'd have to be kidding ourselves to say its "the same thing" because its not.

Skeletally you have the fact that female hips are different from male hips in ways that make the angle, size, and shape of the vaginal cavity biologically different for trans patients. Muscularly a vagina created by SRS doesn't have the same movement capacities- it has some of them, not all of them. Sensation is close, but not identical- a vagina created by srs doesn't have the same concentration of nerve endings in the clitoris, vaginal lining, and so on. Structurally there are differences in depth. Some patients who don't get electro of their pubic hair inadvertently get hairs growing inside- yes inside- the vagina itself. The trans patient has a prostate, not a skene's gland- they serve similar purposes but they're not really the same. There's no hymen with the genitalia created with SRS. And that's just the obvious stuff.

If we're going to define sex based on genitalia, then if we're looking at this scientifically instead of emotionally- it would be impossible with current technology for someone to transition completely from male to female, or from female to male. And all those differences between a neo-vagina & gg's vagina? That's nothing at all compared to the differences between a GB's penis and the genitalia created in SRS for FtM's. Maybe some day, when we can have genitalia grown in the lab and then surgically transplanted into patients, things will be different.


I think that since SRS at least removes male sexual ability,

Removes male sexual ability? Hell, a smoothy would do that. Someone who simply cuts off the penis, without any neo-vagina at all, would hardly be considered female in any system that sees genitalia as the defining characteristic of human sex-status.


using the words male or female to describe genitalia does nothing
to change that.

Actually using terms like male & female talk about far more than genitalia. Our society is so sex-obsessed we forget that there are major, major differences between male & female as far as brains go. Structurally they're NOT the same at all, they don't look the same, they don't work the same.


The words only provide a fairly accurate description of what one has 'down there.' In a perfect world, that would be each individual's private business, but that's not the system in which we live - which is why so many of us, despite having a penis, also have a 'F' on their Driver's License. It's the best compromise for which we can hope under our current system; our genitalia is sometimes legally important and therefore must be described accurately under the law in certain cases.

Except the law is often misguided. Science & logic should direct law, not the other way around.


A change of gender is easier on the other hand.

I've never seen anything to imply a change of gender is possible. You mean change of sex.


It is recognized in nearly every state in the U.S. and in many other countries after just a few counseling sessions. That's why I hate shows like Maury and Jerry who insist on calling transsexuals 'men.' Even if one's sex is male it doesn't make them a 'man' since that word describes a gender concept, not one of a physical sex.

Not really. Almost every state in the US will issue a postop female papers- that doesn't make a postop legally female. Marriage law comes into play here, there are damn few states in the US that have vetted out the issue & come to the conclusion that postops are (for MtF's) female. New Jersey and CA are the only two that come to my mind atm (there are probably more, thats just all I am thinking of right now). In the case of New Jersey the court case that settled the issue the was reached back in 1976 or so... before the social conservatives were organized enough to prevent it. The same ruling would never have occurred in the New Jersey of 2009.

Take a look at texas. There your sex is determined legally by your blood. But they still give postops female DLs...


Somebody born with ambiguous genitalia generally has their parents choose their gender and sex for their birth certificate (and can later change it)

Not in the US. In most of the United States it doesn't work that way at all. The dr takes a look at the infant and simply makes a guess- and that's what gets put down on the BC. Then who knows how the kid develops in reaching puberty. Will they grow a beard, tits, or both? No one knows at birth. Not all states have a mechanism for correcting a BC without surgery because most policies on the subject only think of trans citizens... a few states go by blood (i.e. texas) with legal limbo for anyone who isn't XX or XY... and a fewer states go by whatever the doctor initially says forever (i.e. Ohio). If its wrong, it stays wrong. Forever.


because, as I said, in our system it must one or the other.

Not really. Laws & policies can be changed at will.

[trish]

As was pointed out, one can have the genotype of one sex but exhibit the phenotype of the complementary sex; i.e. the genetic definition does not agree with the biological definition. Further, the gender roles within a society need not strictly depend upon phenotype. The gender roles need not even be dichotomous and they may be affected by class, education, upbringing and yes, surgical procedures. In some societies, for example, eunuchs are neither men nor women. The anthropological concept of gender is distinct from the biological notion of sex, just as the phenotypic expression of sex is distinct from the genetic. The anthropological concept of gender is a relative notion; i.e. it depends upon the evolving customs and mores of a community. Your gender is what other people say your gender is. Your gender is determined by how you are allowed to function in society. Of course an individual has a lot to say about how they are perceived by other people. But one’s gender identification, for good or for bad, is not entirely self-determined. This is the hard fact that all transgender persons have to face and live with. Thank the gods, we’re transforming society, as well as ourselves, to see us as we wish to be seen. But the transistion is not complete. There are still those who will point, laugh and deny you your place in the grand classification of people and things if your lips are too puffy, or your hips not sufficiently wide, or your jowl is too large or your voice too deep. That is why we seek safe places. Places to be and relax with people who appreciate our dilemma and accept us for who we want to be. Hung Angels, unfortunately, is not always that place. Gay sex, straight sex and in betwixt the two sex. There might as well be as many different names for the act of making love as there are lovers. A rose by any other name may no longer be called a rose, but as Shakespeare poetically remarked, it will smell as sweet.

[BellaBellucci]

Actually it would be very easy to argue that a vagina created by SRS is quite different from a GG's vagina. It's just not the same. It's pretty damn close, a miracle of medical science imho- but we'd have to be kidding ourselves to say its "the same thing" because its not.

Ok, you got me there. It's not 100% the same, but again we're talking about legal purposes. Someone with a neo-vagina can hardly be called 'male.'



Removes male sexual ability? Hell, a smoothy would do that. Someone who simply cuts off the penis, without any neo-vagina at all, would hardly be considered female in any system that sees genitalia as the defining characteristic of human sex-status.

Also true, but as I said I believe that's an argument for a third gender. How do you feel about that? Personally, I'd rather be a legal female with a less-than-perfect vagina than a legal male.



Actually using terms like male & female talk about far more than genitalia. Our society is so sex-obsessed we forget that there are major, major differences between male & female as far as brains go. Structurally they're NOT the same at all, they don't look the same, they don't work the same.

Again, I think you're confusing 'male' and 'female' with 'man' and 'woman.' Or at least you feel that the general population does. I'd have to agree with you here as well, except that in this case what the general population thinks is fact actually couldn't be farther from it. Your statement here seems to excuse their ignorance.



Except the law is often misguided. Science & logic should direct law, not the other way around.

We're agreeing again. I'm not saying it shouldn't be that way; I'm saying it's NOT that way.



I've never seen anything to imply a change of gender is possible. You mean change of sex.

I don't understand this one. I had to file a 'Change of Gender' form with my DMV, not a 'Change of Sex.' Could you please explain what you mean by this?



Not really. Almost every state in the US will issue a postop female papers- that doesn't make a postop legally female. Marriage law comes into play here, there are damn few states in the US that have vetted out the issue & come to the conclusion that postops are (for MtF's) female. New Jersey and CA are the only two that come to my mind atm (there are probably more, thats just all I am thinking of right now). In the case of New Jersey the court case that settled the issue the was reached back in 1976 or so... before the social conservatives were organized enough to prevent it. The same ruling would never have occurred in the New Jersey of 2009.

Take a look at texas. There your sex is determined legally by your blood. But they still give postops female DLs...

As I said, here in California it's easy to get an 'F' on your license if you can demonstrate that you live full-time as female. As to your point on marriage law, you're right; I totally forgot about that. IMHO, this is why more trans-people should be on the front lines for marriage equality. The fact that so many people call it 'gay marriage' is disappointing because that terminology completely ignores transsexuals.



Not in the US. In most of the United States it doesn't work that way at all. The dr takes a look at the infant and simply makes a guess- and that's what gets put down on the BC. Then who knows how the kid develops in reaching puberty. Will they grow a beard, tits, or both? No one knows at birth. Not all states have a mechanism for correcting a BC without surgery because most policies on the subject only think of trans citizens... a few states go by blood (i.e. texas) with legal limbo for anyone who isn't XX or XY... and a fewer states go by whatever the doctor initially says forever (i.e. Ohio). If its wrong, it stays wrong. Forever.

Another argument for a third gender?



Not really. Laws & policies can be changed at will.

ROFL! You think our lawmakers here in America have the will to look at trans issues? We make up what? Maybe 2% of the population? We live in a democracy even though our country was technically founded as a constitutional republic. Elected officials are political pansies! I agree with what you say here in principal but there really don't seem to be any consequences for ignoring such small minorities here in the U.S. - especially considering that transsexuals as a whole do not belong to any one political party or ideological system.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

As was pointed out, one can have the genotype of one sex but exhibit the phenotype of the complementary sex; i.e. the genetic definition does not agree with the biological definition. Further, the gender roles within a society need not strictly depend upon phenotype. The gender roles need not even be dichotomous and they may be affected by class, education, upbringing and yes, surgical procedures. In some societies, for example, eunuchs are neither men nor women. The anthropological concept of gender is distinct from the biological notion of sex, just as the phenotypic expression of sex is distinct from the genetic. The anthropological concept of gender is a relative notion; i.e. it depends upon the evolving customs and mores of a community. Your gender is what other people say your gender is. Your gender is determined by how you are allowed to function in society. Of course an individual has a lot to say about how they are perceived by other people. But one’s gender identification, for good or for bad, is not entirely self-determined. This is the hard fact that all transgender persons have to face and live with. Thank the gods, we’re transforming society, as well as ourselves, to see us as we wish to be seen. But the transistion is not complete. There are still those who will point, laugh and deny you your place in the grand classification of people and things if your lips are too puffy, or your hips not sufficiently wide, or your jowl is too large or your voice too deep. That is why we seek safe places. Places to be and relax with people who appreciate our dilemma and accept us for who we want to be. Hung Angels, unfortunately, is not always that place. Gay sex, straight sex and in betwixt the two sex. There might as well be as many different names for the act of making love as there are lovers. A rose by any other name may no longer be called a rose, but as Shakespeare poetically remarked, it will smell as sweet.

Well said. I always enjoy reading your input. :)

~BB~

[Distance]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.



As for some ts holding the almighty insult over some supposedly 'gay' men here...well...they probably will tell you -on some other threads- we straight men use the 'gay' term, in a posing sense of superiority over the gay community. Interesting, as they use it as some sort of insult towards us.



Most tellingly, as jcinva noted here,it does make them men in that way. As for the tss quoted using this insult...it always seemed to me that they were men with toupees,these 3. Apart from Nicole that was, up until her last hate filled responses.

[BellaBellucci]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.

Is it just me or do these two sentences contradict each other? On the one hand you're saying that a definition of your sexuality is unnecessary. On the other you're making it clear that you don't partake in traditionally 'gay' activities. I don't think your problem is with others defining your sexuality, I think it's that you don't know how to do so for yourself.

~BB~

[SarahG]

Also true, but as I said I believe that's an argument for a third gender. How do you feel about that? Personally, I'd rather be a legal female with a less-than-perfect vagina than a legal male.

Oh I agree entirely with the later of this quote, to be clear I am not saying MtF postops aren't female- on the contrary I am saying that they are, but for more reasons then simply whats between their legs. ;)

The way I see it, SRS has limitations but that's because you have to be able to walk before you can run. Medical breakthroughs take time. The SRS of today is so much better then the SRS of 30 years ago, and that's light years ahead of the SRS of 1931 in Northern Europe. I am not the betting type, but I will say that my gut instinct is that- if the world doesn't end in 2012, SRS will continue to get better as time goes on. These limitations will become progressively less and less present as our technology advances. Hell 30 years ago most SRS procedures didn't even think about the clitoris at all.

The kicker, to me, is the fact that people are so much more than their genitalia. I think it is norrowminded to ignore the other relevant things like- gender roles (i.e. being fulltime), the endocrine system, gender itself, brain-sex (the two are very different)- there are a great many things besides genitalia that would seem reasonable & prudent to consider when defining sex, especially when we're talking about real-world applications like the law.

Let's say a guy, totally normal GB guy- XY blood, muscular, masculine, male brain-sex, male gender- nothing feminine about him. This guy goes and gets SRS on a bet. Lives as a guy, dresses as a guy, is seen by society as a guy- never tries to feminize himself in any way. It would be rather silly to go "omgwtfbbq, he has a vagina- we must see him as a girl in the eyes of the law!" The problem is, well, what do we (as a society) do with him? What do we do with him if he had given himself a smoothy instead of getting SRS? We have two ways we can look at this.

We can go "there are only two sexes in practice, we just have to find ways to define it so that it makes sense." Well ok... this guy is your stereotypical guy in every way but genitalia, why not just consider him a guy?

Or... we could go the 3rd sex route and say "omgwtfbbq, he has no penis... he must go into a 3rd category known as 'other'."

But not all cases of 'other' consist of stereotypical guys with vaginas. What if a GG had all her reproductive organs & genitalia removed, and had the surgeons use a skin graft to essentially make her a "stereotypical girl... except with no hole at all"?

Er what? Halt, complete stop- wait a minute- if we do that then we're saying these two people are the exact same sex. ABSURD! They're not. They are neither the same sex, nor are they the same gender- they just happen to be oddball cases. If we're going to make a "3rd" sex for people who are female but not completely, then we'd have to make a 4th sex for people who are male but not completely, a 5th sex perhaps for people who are exactly 50/50-... But if we don't make all these other categories and stick with 3- that creates a system that is way too much of a MtF centric way of looking at the world that ignores the existence of FtM's, ignores people who are IS, and ignores people like eunics who aren't ts in any way.*

Fuck that, you might as will throw your hands in the air and go "this 3rd sex stuff is lumping too many radically different people together- it would make more sense to simply stop talking about sex status at all." But, if we say that as a people- the earth will rumble, the sky will fall, the poles will reverse, the planet will implode, and a tare will form in the fabric of our universe because that would never, ever, possibly happen in the United States.




I've never seen anything to imply a change of gender is possible. You mean change of sex.

I don't understand this one. I had to file a 'Change of Gender' form with my DMV, not a 'Change of Sex.' Could you please explain what you mean by this?

Gender and sex mean two very different things. Gender is talking about lifestyle, sex is talking about biology.

The problem is that the world is full of idiots. Idiots who think sex is a "dirty" word because "sex is a sin" and "sin is wrong." These idiots, in thinking that sex is a "dirty word" try using gender in place of sex, as a PC-term. This mindset of not wanting to use an "icky, dirty word" has popped up in virtually every part of our society. This even includes our bureaucrats- so they say "gender" a lot when what they really mean is "sex."

I'll give a "for instance" to show what I mean. One year I switched health insurance policies and they sent me a form to fill out.

Up at the top the form said: Name.
It didn't say "nickname," "common name," or "legal name"- just name. What were they asking for? They wanted my legal name. In fact they would have made me redo the form if I had put anything else down.

Then I went to the date (straight forward), and then below that it had this question: Gender [choose one]: [M] [F]

Did that mean I could literally choose whatever I wanted? No. Hmm, well then... were they asking about my gender? No, they don't give a shit about whether or not I have a male or female gender. What they were asking about was my SEX. My biology.

Our legal forms in government work are the same way. I've seen so many forms where stuff like this was poorly written it would make your head spin. Yes it sounds like splitting hairs here- but it makes all the difference in the world.

In our country, as far as the government is concerned- they only care about your legal name, not whatever people in the real world call you. They care about your sex- your biology, not whatever your lifestyle or gender is.

When we're talking about driver's licenses, we're talking about sex- biology. All you have to do is read the realID act to understand that. But some states are smart enough to go "but if we put down their legal sex, we're setting these people up for violence & discrimination." So what they do a few states & local governments (Texas, CA, NYC among them) will let a trans person get what is to the legal system, an inaccurate identification card, because of the fears over their safety.

The process for this is different from place to place, not all places that do this have a form called "change of gender" and when they do- what they really mean is "form for change of sex status display marker on state issued identification cards"


As I said, here in California it's easy to get an 'F' on your license if you can demonstrate that you live full-time as female. As to your point on marriage law, you're right; I totally forgot about that.

Most of the US isn't like California- when talking about matters like these. In most states in the Union, you're sold down the river if you need a female identification card as a preop. The only way you can get one in MOST states is through fraud (i.e. going up to an overworked DMV clerk and giving some kind of sob story like "omg, I got my new card and it says male- there must be some mistake"- at which point if you pass & they buy the story, they give you a new card thinking there has been some kind of a mistake).





* On the note of FtM's, the "sex is your genitalia" argument is most damaging to them. Medical science is not nearly as far along for them as it is for us. Their options, frankly, suck. You know that New Jersey court case I mentioned?

The logic behind their ruling was that a postop MtF is for all practical purposes a girl, lives as a girl, and when in a relationship with a guy- is living a normal heterosexual relationship where, because of the surgery, she would be able to consummate the marriage just as adequately as a sterile GG.

The problem? In 1976 postop MtF's could have heteronormative vaginal intercourse with guys. FtM's of 1976 could NOT have heteronormative vaginal intercourse with GG's because the SRS procedure for them back then was incapable of making a fully functional penis.

In other words, there are TWO states that have vetted out marriage rights for trans postops that come to my mind, and of those- one based their decision on genitalia, and because of that, allow MtF's the legal right to heterosexual marriage while not granting that same right to FtM's because of the way the ruling was argued (however in practice, as far as I know NJ has no problem marrying FtM's... even if it does seem to be at odds with the court ruling that established marriage rights for postops some 30 years ago).

That was a mouthful post... I haven't gotten on one of these rants on HA in a while.

[sheyum]

Holy Shit
This thread never fuckign ends...and as I mentioned before--its both incredibly boring...and yet fascinating..
The labeling and name calling bores me---but the intellectual discussion is interesting...just in what comprises gender..

But i have to say--though some of you are down on jcinva--and i havent read the entire thread...i think hes a smart dude..and alot of what he says is very insightful...but he still loses me on the definitive "Youre Gay" thing..
I think yodajazz brings up a very good point--that's in line with the way i think about myself ..
(s0rry to say -Jcinva, but even though I find ts's sexy as shit, and fantasize about sucking one off or getting fucked) i consider myself totally straight..)

So yoda's question
What if the cock you're sucking is an artificial one--attatched to a woman)? is RIGHT on--at least for me..
cause thats how i think of it---which is why I like transexuals and not men..
I hear what JC's saying...techincally the act of sucking a dick may be considered "gay Sex",, but i dont believe its the sex act itself that determines the orientation...

I once read a sex therapist describe orientation in the following way:
she said (_to paraphrase) "whomever you want to snuggle up with on the couch--THAT"S what your sexual orientation is...." I think thats very insightful...
You can committ whatever act you want--but your orientation is based on who you can fall in love with and want to be around and cuddle with..

I want to cuddle with a woman...I have some other sexual desires....but they are purely sex to me..(not to offend anyone here...but thats the truth).
So---does that make me gay? I think not..as a matter of fact --i KNOW not..and nothing anyone says can change that thought...i acknowledge that it may be a "gay fantasy"--IF you feel the need to call it that...Because its still not really a GAY fantasy...the fantasy is of a woman (with a cock) its more a gay REALITY...on a technical level..
i can live with that...who gives a fuck? There's nothing wrong with homosexuality anyway..
I just dont identify with it...so why do I need to have someone else tell me I am..Its ridiculous..
Am I in denial?? I think not...as a matter of fact--i KNOW not...but somehow it seems t make the homophobes on this board (many of whom are Transexual--ironically as has been pointed out)--then call me whatever youd like..

being called a "fag" is not really a stigma to me--i dont find anything insulting about being homosexual--its just not accurate--and ultimately--i think i understand myself better than anyone else on this board..
shouldnt that be true of everyone??

[Distance]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.

Is it just me or do these two sentences contradict each other? On the one hand you're saying that a definition of your sexuality is unnecessary. On the other you're making it clear that you don't partake in traditionally 'gay' activities. I don't think your problem is with others defining your sexuality, I think it's that you don't know how to do so for yourself.

~BB~

?

You may think what you want, it does not matter to me. I posted what I just did in regards to the op and his own quest for answers -which I thought was odd- and the way the thread derailed. Oh wait. Maybe you had to tell me this because, again, you have and have had issues with your own sexuality for years. That and/or because there is Danielle's pic on my profile. Well, I did not even want to allow myself a reply in the 'playboy radio thread', as you seem hell bent on thinking 'Danielle's doers' are chasing you and hurting you around every virtual corner of the net. Post away if you may. :roll:

[BellaBellucci]

Two more great responses! With any luck this thread can be put to pasture now... unless the homophobic idiots have anything ridiculous left to say that is.

~BB~

[Distance]

Two more great responses! With any luck this thread can be put to pasture now... unless the homophobic idiots have anything ridiculous left to say that is.

~BB~

That's right. And these two didn't include yours. Cheers! :lol:

[Rogers]

Apart from Nicole that was, up until her last hate filled responses.

Oh, I think Nicole is quite respectful of those who respect others tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if she's had a lot of hate thrown at her over time. The same goes for tsntx and Mimi most likely. You'd have to be a saint not to bite back at times. But I think Nicole has learned the most out of the three from her experiences: it's why she is so funny AND wise. I will miss reading her posts. :)

And to the OP: don't sweat it. You'll figure things out sooner or later most likely.

[BellaBellucci]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.

Is it just me or do these two sentences contradict each other? On the one hand you're saying that a definition of your sexuality is unnecessary. On the other you're making it clear that you don't partake in traditionally 'gay' activities. I don't think your problem is with others defining your sexuality, I think it's that you don't know how to do so for yourself.

~BB~

?

You may think what you want, it does not matter to me. I posted what I just did in regards to the op and his own quest for answers -which I thought was odd- and the way the thread derailed. Oh wait. Maybe you had to tell me this because, again, you have and have had issues with your own sexuality for years. That and/or because there is Danielle's pic on my profile. Well, I did not even want to allow myself a reply in the 'playboy radio thread', as you seem hell bent on thinking 'Danielle's doers' are chasing you and hurting you around every virtual corner of the net. Post away if you may. :roll:

Uhh... I don't have any issues with my sexuality and never have. Actually, I just made an observation about your own paradoxical statement. I'm sorry if it was too accurate for your taste.

And I hate to disappoint you but my life doesn't revolve around Danielle. That would have been a nice out for you if it were true though, huh? :roll:

~BB~

[Distance]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.

Is it just me or do these two sentences contradict each other? On the one hand you're saying that a definition of your sexuality is unnecessary. On the other you're making it clear that you don't partake in traditionally 'gay' activities. I don't think your problem is with others defining your sexuality, I think it's that you don't know how to do so for yourself.

~BB~

?

You may think what you want, it does not matter to me. I posted what I just did in regards to the op and his own quest for answers -which I thought was odd- and the way the thread derailed. Oh wait. Maybe you had to tell me this because, again, you have and have had issues with your own sexuality for years. That and/or because there is Danielle's pic on my profile. Well, I did not even want to allow myself a reply in the 'playboy radio thread', as you seem hell bent on thinking 'Danielle's doers' are chasing you and hurting you around every virtual corner of the net. Post away if you may. :roll:

Uhh... I don't have any issues with my sexuality and never have. Actually, I just made an observation about your own paradoxical statement. I'm sorry if it was too accurate for your taste.

And I hate to disappoint you but my life doesn't revolve around Danielle. That would have been a nice out for you if it were true though, huh? :roll:

~BB~

You're totally paranoid about that Danielle thing...or you are just pretending like a frowning masculine Diva -no idea what you are on, but I reckon you should stop: it's bad for you. I don't care what you do, or what you claim you are etc. Be half of what she is and then you can probably start talking...all I have seen of you here, despite some at times clever observations, is constant nagging and attacking, bordering o.c.d.



You can claim what you want about my sexuality, and that is just fine. On the other hand, one has read how you yourself have admitted to have been fighting your deep homosexual desires for years, fooling yourself and your entourage, marrying, and giving your ex wife a child. So whatever...and...touché. :roll:

[BellaBellucci]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.

Is it just me or do these two sentences contradict each other? On the one hand you're saying that a definition of your sexuality is unnecessary. On the other you're making it clear that you don't partake in traditionally 'gay' activities. I don't think your problem is with others defining your sexuality, I think it's that you don't know how to do so for yourself.

~BB~

?

You may think what you want, it does not matter to me. I posted what I just did in regards to the op and his own quest for answers -which I thought was odd- and the way the thread derailed. Oh wait. Maybe you had to tell me this because, again, you have and have had issues with your own sexuality for years. That and/or because there is Danielle's pic on my profile. Well, I did not even want to allow myself a reply in the 'playboy radio thread', as you seem hell bent on thinking 'Danielle's doers' are chasing you and hurting you around every virtual corner of the net. Post away if you may. :roll:

Uhh... I don't have any issues with my sexuality and never have. Actually, I just made an observation about your own paradoxical statement. I'm sorry if it was too accurate for your taste.

And I hate to disappoint you but my life doesn't revolve around Danielle. That would have been a nice out for you if it were true though, huh? :roll:

~BB~

You're totally paranoid about that Danielle thing...or you are just pretending like a frowning masculine Diva -no idea what you are on, but I reckon you should stop: it's bad for you. I don't care what you do, or what you claim you are etc. Be half of what she is and then you can probably start talking...all I have seen of you here, despite some at times clever observations, is constant nagging and attacking, bordering o.c.d.



You can claim what you want about my sexuality, and that is just fine. On the other hand, one has read how you yourself have admitted to have been fighting your deep homosexual desires for years, fooling yourself and your entourage, marrying, and giving your ex wife a child. So whatever...and...touché. :roll:

Spoken like a truly insecure would-be gay man.

As far as I'm concerned, I never had a desire to be with men until after I started transition and I'm at peace with both that and my former life. If I wasn't, do you think I would even bring it up? You're the one who's questioning as exemplified by your own post. YOUR words. Not mine. I never made an accusation and I never called you any names.

And as far as Danielle, she may be prettier than me (doctors can do that for a person) and been in this aspect of the adult business longer, but she'll never have my strength of character. Most people don't and if people want to hate me for it, then so be it.

~BB~

[Distance]

This thread is filled with hate and insecurities. Well I do not need anyone to define my sexuality. I don't fellate nor take it in any place, thank you very much.

Is it just me or do these two sentences contradict each other? On the one hand you're saying that a definition of your sexuality is unnecessary. On the other you're making it clear that you don't partake in traditionally 'gay' activities. I don't think your problem is with others defining your sexuality, I think it's that you don't know how to do so for yourself.

~BB~

?

You may think what you want, it does not matter to me. I posted what I just did in regards to the op and his own quest for answers -which I thought was odd- and the way the thread derailed. Oh wait. Maybe you had to tell me this because, again, you have and have had issues with your own sexuality for years. That and/or because there is Danielle's pic on my profile. Well, I did not even want to allow myself a reply in the 'playboy radio thread', as you seem hell bent on thinking 'Danielle's doers' are chasing you and hurting you around every virtual corner of the net. Post away if you may. :roll:

Uhh... I don't have any issues with my sexuality and never have. Actually, I just made an observation about your own paradoxical statement. I'm sorry if it was too accurate for your taste.

And I hate to disappoint you but my life doesn't revolve around Danielle. That would have been a nice out for you if it were true though, huh? :roll:

~BB~

You're totally paranoid about that Danielle thing...or you are just pretending like a frowning masculine Diva -no idea what you are on, but I reckon you should stop: it's bad for you. I don't care what you do, or what you claim you are etc. Be half of what she is and then you can probably start talking...all I have seen of you here, despite some at times clever observations, is constant nagging and attacking, bordering o.c.d.



You can claim what you want about my sexuality, and that is just fine. On the other hand, one has read how you yourself have admitted to have been fighting your deep homosexual desires for years, fooling yourself and your entourage, marrying, and giving your ex wife a child. So whatever...and...touché. :roll:

Spoken like a truly insecure would-be gay man.

As far as I'm concerned, I never had a desire to be with men until after I started transition and I'm at peace with both that and my former life. If I wasn't, do you think I would even bring it up? You're the one who's questioning as exemplified by your own post. YOUR words. Not mine.

~BB~

There, I will hand it to you. I am what you think I am. And more. :lol:
As for your insecurities or 'non insecurities': look at you, god damn it. You'd scare Freud and kids at halloween without a costume.


Time for me to leave...and leave you to what you do best: getting fucked and fucking yourself up. ;)

[BellaBellucci]

There, I will hand it to you. I am what you think I am. And more. :lol:
As for your insecurities or 'non insecurities': look at you, god damn it. You'd scare Freud and kids at halloween without a costume.


Time for me to leave...and leave you to what you do best: getting fucked and fucking yourself up. ;)

That's not fair. Kids love me. It's adults that can't handle the challenges I present. :lol:

~BB~

[Bob's Tgirls]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?

Danger!!! long winded response ahead.

My opinion is to be with whoever you want and don't concern yourself over labels. If you do, it can get a lot more complicated. You could start asking yourself questions like what really qualifies as a TS. Does she have to be on hormones or have a boob job to qualify. Or does any boy dressed up as a girl qualify. Does she have to live full time as a girl or is part time OK.

The reason I say this is that there are some really hot "tgirls" out there who live as males, but dress up to perform in shows or work as escorts. But in reality they are not transsexuals. Should that stop you if you are attracted to a person?

I think most guys who are into tgirls go through this questioning of one's own sexuality. I did and most of my male friends (who are into tgirls) have as well. The question "Am I gay?" pops up in forums and chatrooms with some regularity.

Eventually you will just say fuck it and have fun and not care about the labels or you will continue to struggle with this and not enjoy it so much. Good luck with just saying "fuck it". :)

[BellaBellucci]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?

Danger!!! long winded response ahead.

My opinion is to be with whoever you want and don't concern yourself over labels. If you do, it can get a lot more complicated. You could start asking yourself questions like what really qualifies as a TS. Does she have to be on hormones or have a boob job to qualify. Or does any boy dressed up as a girl qualify. Does she have to live full time as a girl or is part time OK.

The reason I say this is that there are some really hot "tgirls" out there who live as males, but dress up to perform in shows or work as escorts. But in reality they are not transsexuals. Should that stop you if you are attracted to a person?

I think most guys who are into tgirls go through this questioning of one's own sexuality. I did and most of my male friends (who are into tgirls) have as well. The question "Am I gay?" pops up in forums and chatrooms with some regularity.

Eventually you will just say fuck it and have fun and not care about the labels or you will continue to struggle with this and not enjoy it so much. Good luck with just saying "fuck it". :)

Gotta co-sign. Well said. :)

~BB~

[Nicole Dupre]

(Ok, maybe I'm just a weee bit sadistic, but these bozos are knee deep in the chiffon and taffeta now! :lol: )




Right on cue. I'm an angry queer, Nicole.

Thank you.

You're quite welcome. And thank you for coming out, thailor. That was quite brave, and I applaud you. You're "here & queer", and that's just thuper. ;)

Personally, if I had known that you two rectum wranglers were into WoW, I'd probably have checked your hard drives for jpgs of muscular knights wearing capes and shimmery leotards. I mean, that's not quite what I'd call well-adjusted heterosexual behavior on your parts. No, ma'am. Alpha males don't play with their joysticks all day as they ride around on sparkly unicorns. But now that you're here, you can download all the cock à la carte pics you want. Personally, you have my pity. Angry gay men are some of God's most lonely creatures.

But you two masochists should be warned that the transsexuals here are all likely to be much prettier than the female archetypes whose vaginas you both hatched from, and whom you both cathected a sexual aversion to strong-willed women over. Maybe your mommys confused you because they were both so butch? I dunno, but that's no reason to hate on girls who still have the plumbing those hags must have always envied.

Anyway, I'd better go now. 'I don't really wanna hurt you. I don't really wanna make you cry'. ;)

[blacktgirls]

I justify my attraction to TS ladies because they say that it was a biological mistake that they were born male and that they are actually female . Do other men here have doubts like myself that it is not ok to be attracted to or have sex with TS girls ?

Danger!!! long winded response ahead.

My opinion is to be with whoever you want and don't concern yourself over labels. If you do, it can get a lot more complicated. You could start asking yourself questions like what really qualifies as a TS. Does she have to be on hormones or have a boob job to qualify. Or does any boy dressed up as a girl qualify. Does she have to live full time as a girl or is part time OK.

The reason I say this is that there are some really hot "tgirls" out there who live as males, but dress up to perform in shows or work as escorts. But in reality they are not transsexuals. Should that stop you if you are attracted to a person?

I think most guys who are into tgirls go through this questioning of one's own sexuality. I did and most of my male friends (who are into tgirls) have as well. The question "Am I gay?" pops up in forums and chatrooms with some regularity.

Eventually you will just say fuck it and have fun and not care about the labels or you will continue to struggle with this and not enjoy it so much. Good luck with just saying "fuck it". :)i'm a big fan of your work and i loved Tgirl Fantasies 14 , especially the behind the scenes . when that little cutie , Maui , was trying to pee on the toilet while sprung on Viagra it was so hot! i also like that you used girls from the U.S. in the movie because it's kind of sexy to think that you could run into one of these girls in some club . that movie is the only TS porn i've seen that had a behind the scenes .

[transmaven]

Nicole,

Your post to Rockabilly was extraordinarily mean-spirited. Why do that? why work to hurt with such intensity? It *is* sadism, and it's wrong. He's obviously a decent sort, trying to make his way in the world.

So much phony hardmindedness on this bitter thread, so much unhappiness pretending to be truth.

I guess that's just the way it is, huh?

[phobun]

Nicole,

Your post to Rockabilly was extraordinarily mean-spirited. Why do that? why work to hurt with such intensity? It *is* sadism, and it's wrong. He's obviously a decent sort, trying to make his way in the world.

So much phony hardmindedness on this bitter thread, so much unhappiness pretending to be truth.

I guess that's just the way it is, huh?
Billy is a good guy and repeatedly showed Nicole kindness, yet Nicole hates him for it. It says quite a lot about how Nicole views Nicole. No doubt there's bigtime psychopathology and demons there. In many ways Nicole can only be pitied.

[Nicole Dupre]

Nicole,

Your post to Rockabilly was extraordinarily mean-spirited. Why do that? why work to hurt with such intensity? It *is* sadism, and it's wrong. He's obviously a decent sort, trying to make his way in the world.

So much phony hardmindedness on this bitter thread, so much unhappiness pretending to be truth.

I guess that's just the way it is, huh?

The way it is is that I am not being put on a guilt trip to patronize him. Instead of defending a weak man who's a liability here, you should be defending your sisters if you are TS. Two cowards are calling us "men" and this person, who has insisted that I consider him as BF material(?), is now enjoying their cruel sense of humor? Not as my friend he won't. I've tried being pleasant and honest with him, responded to his PMs, sent him a pic or two, etc. But I'm drawing the line here and now.

If you want to enable him to be a dysfunctional mess, be my guest. But he will obviously cling to anyone who gives him the time of day. I don't hate him. I don't hate homeless people either, but I'm not being put on a guilt trip for not inviting them over and cooking them all dinner. If you take in every stray, you become a crazy cat lady. Therefore you accept that you can only be as good to others as you can be to yourself. I'm not a martyr. One by one, girls leave this forum. If you're content wth that phenomenon, I suppose "that's just the way it is, huh"?

[Nicole Dupre]

Nicole,

Your post to Rockabilly was extraordinarily mean-spirited. Why do that? why work to hurt with such intensity? It *is* sadism, and it's wrong. He's obviously a decent sort, trying to make his way in the world.

So much phony hardmindedness on this bitter thread, so much unhappiness pretending to be truth.

I guess that's just the way it is, huh?
Billy is a good guy and repeatedly showed Nicole kindness, yet Nicole hates him for it. It says quite a lot about how Nicole views Nicole. No doubt there's bigtime psychopathology and demons there. In many ways Nicole can only be pitied.

I never asked for his "kindness". And I hate no one, so save your stabs at pop psych. The mentally ill uber-hater here is you, ma'am.

Now enjoy your new found hero status with the forum's obese emotional cripple, your fellow WoW aficionado, and Mother Teresa aka Transmaven. You all deserve each other. Maybe you should start a guild and all wear matching leotards.

[rockabilly]

sigh , I'm going to respond but i probably shouldn't. I never enjoyed jcinva's "humor" i said " Damn your vulcan logic , lol " because he is dealing w/o emotions ... hence vulcan logic.
As far as wanting you to think of me as bf material , you need a sense of humor as that was all in jest.
And as for being an obese emotional cripple , i'm overweight ... big deal. I'm not going to lie and say i look like something i'm not nor never will be , and name one person who has never had emotional issues.

[rockabilly]

I enjoy my time on this forum and have met many nice and interesting people. I've made a few friends , had some laughs and just had a great time.
Nicole the comment i made after yours was said in anger and i'm sorry. You don't have to like me or reply to any of my comments or threads. All i ask is to be treated w/ a little civility and courtesy , i don't think that is too much to ask for.
Thank you to those who said her comments were mean and rude but they are only Nicoles opinions.
Have a nice day :)

[jcinva]

I'm done with this thread, and this nonsense about who's gay.

Well, that didn't last, did it, Nicole?



Personally, if I had known that you two rectum wranglers were into WoW, I'd probably have checked your hard drives for jpgs of muscular knights wearing capes and shimmery leotards.

Ah, the W.o.W. retorts. Still harping on that, are you? It's amusing how you're scrambling to serve up some humiliation against that red herring. In retrospect, I probably should have dropped a Frogger or Duck Hunt reference to see what you could come up with there.


(Ok, maybe I'm just a weee bit sadistic, but these bozos are knee deep in the chiffon and taffeta now! :lol: )




Right on cue. I'm an angry queer, Nicole.

Thank you.

You're quite welcome. And thank you for coming out, thailor.

As for the "queer" comment - of course your "quote" is contrived, but it is sort of clever that you've figured out how to use pseudo-HTML to lie. More importantly, it's tough to rag on someone for being "a queer" as you put it, when they've conceded, hell, vociferously argued that, all veneer and convoluted sexual conundrums aside, enjoying transsexual photos and fantasies is probably gay. Like the old complaint:


Aye! Thirty years I've built homes in this town. D' they call me Seamus the Carpenter? No! But y' suck one cock...!

The problem we come back to, of course, is that all this fag and gay baiting runs two ways. If you consider me or any of the guys here "fags" for digging some of the pre-ops here or actually being in a sexual relationship with one - it does follow that you consider the pre-ops to be guys.

It's clear this issue has got you - more than any other TS on this board - seriously riled.

I think there's a few things going on here. And I don't think the problem is Phobun, or Rockabilly, or, from your vitriolic lashing out in another thread, blacktgirls, or even me. I think the problem here - and the one you can't get away from is... you.

First, as with a lot of people, in the heat of argument, you've shown your true colors. Whatever any of the other TGs thinks, you really do perceive yourself, not as a woman, but as a guy in drag. So the question becomes: do you simply regard yourself as a poser amongst all of the genuine transsexuals here, or do you really believe the entire "transsexual" concept to be a sham?

Second, the contempt you appear to have for homosexuality and homosexuals - shameful, of course, but it would fit with your spitting the words "gay" and "queer" like an accusation of inferiority, an invective. And the chiffon and taffeta comment - I guess you have like contempt for transvestites and cross-dressers, too.

It's genuinely astonishing just how intolerant a person you really are.

So, what's your story, Nicole? Are you a "real" transsexual or did you just run away from your old life and gender to avoid being something you so evidently despise. All that ink - is that artistic flair or just an obsessive compulsion to escape what you used to be. Are you just an angry Lady MacBeth trying to rid yourself of the stink of your former identity, but instead of scrubbing, just piling on more and more tats?

Is your own self-loathing the reason you lash out at me so with your hurtful words?

Why you got to be such a hater?

Can't we all just get along?

[dgs925]

This thread turned out to be a lot more interesting than I thought from reading the OP. jcinva and SaraG come off as rational and intelligent, while Nicole and Bella seem even more childish and ignorant than they did before.

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm done with this thread, and this nonsense about who's gay.

Well, that didn't last, did it, Nicole?



Personally, if I had known that you two rectum wranglers were into WoW, I'd probably have checked your hard drives for jpgs of muscular knights wearing capes and shimmery leotards.

Ah, the W.o.W. retorts. Still harping on that, are you? It's amusing how you're scrambling to serve up some humiliation against that red herring. In retrospect, I probably should have dropped a Frogger or Duck Hunt reference to see what you could come up with there.


(Ok, maybe I'm just a weee bit sadistic, but these bozos are knee deep in the chiffon and taffeta now! :lol: )




Right on cue. I'm an angry queer, Nicole.

Thank you.

You're quite welcome. And thank you for coming out, thailor.

As for the "queer" comment - of course your "quote" is contrived, but it is sort of clever that you've figured out how to use pseudo-HTML to lie. More importantly, it's tough to rag on someone for being "a queer" as you put it, when they've conceded, hell, vociferously argued that, all veneer and convoluted sexual conundrums aside, enjoying transsexual photos and fantasies is probably gay. Like the old complaint:


Aye! Thirty years I've built homes in this town. D' they call me Seamus the Carpenter? No! But y' suck one cock...!

The problem we come back to, of course, is that all this fag and gay baiting runs two ways. If you consider me or any of the guys here "fags" for digging some of the pre-ops here or actually being in a sexual relationship with one - it does follow that you consider the pre-ops to be guys.

It's clear this issue has got you - more than any other TS on this board - seriously riled.

I think there's a few things going on here. And I don't think the problem is Phobun, or Rockabilly, or, from your vitriolic lashing out in another thread, blacktgirls, or even me. I think the problem here - and the one you can't get away from is... you.

First, as with a lot of people, in the heat of argument, you've shown your true colors. Whatever any of the other TGs thinks, you really do perceive yourself, not as a woman, but as a guy in drag. So the question becomes: do you simply regard yourself as a poser amongst all of the genuine transsexuals here, or do you really believe the entire "transsexual" concept to be a sham?

Second, the contempt you appear to have for homosexuality and homosexuals - shameful, of course, but it would fit with your spitting the words "gay" and "queer" like an accusation of inferiority, an invective. And the chiffon and taffeta comment - I guess you have like contempt for transvestites and cross-dressers, too.

It's genuinely astonishing just how intolerant a person you really are.

So, what's your story, Nicole? Are you a "real" transsexual or did you just run away from your old life and gender to avoid being something you so evidently despise. All that ink - is that artistic flair or just an obsessive compulsion to escape what you used to be. Are you just an angry Lady MacBeth trying to rid yourself of the stink of your former identity, but instead of scrubbing, just piling on more and more tats?

Is your own self-loathing the reason you lash out at me so with your hurtful words?

Why you got to be such a hater?

Can't we all just get along?

:roll: My "story"? My "former ID"? A "life that I despised"? Keep clutching at straws, pookie. But there was never anything overtly "male" about me, if you think I've strayed so far from a previous "me". My natural hormone levels, pre-HRT, showed distinct evidence of me being what the Callen-Lorde clinic referred to as "intersexed". I had a fleshy chest, soft skin, almost no body or facial hair, and was labeled as "feminine" by my family ever since I can remember. There has been no extreme departure from masculinity. And if something as superficial as tattoos define gender stereotypes for your bumfuck Egyptian ass, you need to get out of Mayberry more often. I grew up and went to school in a city where both men and women have been getting heavily tattooed since the early 1900's. Don't blame me because people like you seem to catch on to what's happening in NYC literally decades later. That's life in the big city, and I'm not sugarcoating a damn thing for you or your dweeby crew of cretins. As for throwing around words like fag or queer, they're both staples of my vernacular. As a matter of fact, I don't take offense to being called either. It's being called a "man" that I have an issue with. I've never been a "man" in my life, and I'm not going start acquiescing such nonsense to keep your life "country simple". If you need to refer to me as a "he-she" or a "shemale" or "it" or something other than a woman, that's your loss. But a "man"? No. You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down. Now, if you are gay and you can only make sense of your attraction to cock by wearing the gay label, congrats. You can be my gay brother, and I'll back you up 200% for being yourself. But don't project your limited "either/or" capacity for understanding biology and psychology on me. Don't piss on my back and tell me its raining. Because when you do, I am most certainly going to tell you to GO FUCK YOURSELF. Is that a good enough "story", big brain, or would like it retold in even more colorful language?

[russtafa]

wow :shock:

[phobun]

There has been no extreme departure from masculinity.
Agreed.
http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/nicole_1d_181.jpg

[phobun]

It's being called a "man" that I have an issue with. I've never been a "man" in my life, and I'm not going start acquiescing such nonsense to keep your life "country simple". If you need to refer to me as a "he-she" or a "shemale" or "it" or something other than a woman, that's your loss. But a "man"? No. You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down.
No. Calling a male a man is not the same as using those repulsive racial epithets. There is no equivalence there.

[BellaBellucci]

It's being called a "man" that I have an issue with. I've never been a "man" in my life, and I'm not going start acquiescing such nonsense to keep your life "country simple". If you need to refer to me as a "he-she" or a "shemale" or "it" or something other than a woman, that's your loss. But a "man"? No. You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down.
No. Calling a male a man is not the same as using those repulsive racial epithets. There is no equivalence there.

Uhh. I'd have to say there is especially considering the lengths to which we go to distance ourselves from our supposed 'manhood.' If I had to guess I'd say that you've been watching 'shemale' porn so long that you think just because it's OK for the industry to use the word that it's OK in general.

It's not and that's why so many people object to its use even in a business context. 'Man' is even worse.

~BB~

[Nicole Dupre]

It's being called a "man" that I have an issue with. I've never been a "man" in my life, and I'm not going start acquiescing such nonsense to keep your life "country simple". If you need to refer to me as a "he-she" or a "shemale" or "it" or something other than a woman, that's your loss. But a "man"? No. You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down.
No. Calling a male a man is not the same as using those repulsive racial epithets. There is no equivalence there.

Oh, really? Well thank you for clarifying where your head is at. Because, in this community, there is no slur which reveals bigotry as much as someone intentionally referring to a M2F with a male pronoun. None. Case closed.

This is like "master" thinking he would enter the kingdom heaven because he allowed his "negros" to sleep indoors. Because, to his way of thinking, they were his "house niggers" and he would call them whatever he pleased.

For all intents and purposes, you've repeatedly used the "N" word here, scumbag, whether your bigotry allows to acknowledge it or not. Thanks again for showing us your true colors, bigot, and that you're no better than a Klansman.

[jcinva]

It's being called a "man" that I have an issue with. I've never been a "man" in my life, and I'm not going start acquiescing such nonsense to keep your life "country simple". If you need to refer to me as a "he-she" or a "shemale" or "it" or something other than a woman, that's your loss. But a "man"? No. You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down.
No. Calling a male a man is not the same as using those repulsive racial epithets. There is no equivalence there.

This is like "master" thinking he would enter the kingdom heaven because he allowed his "negros" to sleep indoors. Because, to his way of thinking, they were his "house niggers" and he would call them whatever he pleased.

For all intents and purposes, you've repeatedly used the "N" word here, scumbag, whether your bigotry allows to acknowledge it or not. Thanks again for showing us your true colors, bigot, and that you're no better than a Klansman.

It's interesting, Nicole, that you're accusing someone else of using the "N" word when, so far as I can tell, the only person who's used it, at least in this thread, is you.

Are these racial epithets simply more "staples of your vernacular?"

Are Latinos and African Americans, generally, part of that group, with homosexuals and crossdressers, for which you have such deep contempt? Or do you toss out those particular epithets as casual terms of endearment?

Again, I have to ask - why all the hate?

[Teydyn]

Again, I have to ask - why all the hate?
Really? When people like you insult her and all other TS they should love you?

[BellaBellucci]

Again, I have to ask - why all the hate?
Really? When people like you insult her and all other TS they should love you?

Yup. That's pretty much what chasers think, yeah. They pretty much all think we're all so desperate for love and attention that like little children, negative reinforcement should be not only accepted, but appreciated.

Fuck that. This thread is seriously and quickly devolving to unheard of depths.

~BB~

PS: I absolutely love your signature! How true. ;)

[Nicole Dupre]

It's interesting, Nicole, that you're accusing someone else of using the "N" word when, so far as I can tell, the only person who's used it, at least in this thread, is you.

Are these racial epithets simply more "staples of your vernacular?"

Are Latinos and African Americans, generally, part of that group, with homosexuals and crossdressers, for which you have such deep contempt? Or do you toss out those particular epithets as casual terms of endearment?

Again, I have to ask - why all the hate?

I'm using the "N" word?! You're high! Racism turns my stomach!!!

Yes. I use the terms "bitch", "whore", "tranny", "sexchange", "motherfucker", "faggot", "cocksucker", "queer", "fruit", "flamer", "spermguzzler", and "sissy" all as casual terms of endearment. One of my best friends calls me "shemale" and I call her "sexchange" all the time. That's us. Dig it. And tough shit if you don't like it. But don't read hate into it because you would never know.

Do you honestly think I would judge or look down upon another human being for their sexuality or gender identity? If so, you are indeed a fucking idiot.

Would I ever refer to anyone by a racial slur? Of course not. I'm not a bigot, dipshit. I show respect to everyone except obnoxious fools like you.

And you really are a sheltered fool. You claim that you're technically a homosexual who deserves respect, but can't give a M2F the respect of referring the them with a female pronoun. I would bet my life that even if you do acknowledge yourself as gay, that you have never mingled with your own community. WHERE AS I HAVE DOWN THE LINE! Are you going to deny that your sexual proclivities remain closeted?

When I was confused enough to think that gender identity dysphoria was the same as being a homosexual. I was fiercely proud to be a cocksucking faggot. But it's not the same thing as being trans. Children don't have libidos. I identified as female and if my parents didn't explain that the thing I was urinating with meant I wasn't, I would have gravitated towards "being like mommy" ie. female 100%. Unfortunately, my parents weren't quite as progressive as they probably should have been. But no one handed them Cliff Notes on how to impeccably raise an "intersexed" child. My parents, however, NEVER rejected me for being what they thought of as "gay". And quite frankly, I no longer even see my situation as any type of dysphoria. If it ever was a dysphoria, it was the emotional response to being labeled and ostracized as a child and adolescent. So clearly it was society that had the emotional maturity issues, not me. I'm me, and I'm NOT ashamed of anything I do. If I thought that I was going to do anything over which I couldn't hold my head up high, I wouldn't do it. I'm not a hater by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I speak up against haters often and never look back.

So spin your wheels all you like. Whatever you are, you're certainly not very sharp or accurate, and you aren't fit to jerk off in my shadow based on what you've communicated here. But the true hater here is Phobun, who projects his own mental illnesses on everyone he comes into contact with.

[SarahG]

Fuck that. This thread is seriously and quickly devolving to unheard of depths.

Unheard of? Not for this forum. One of the good & bad parts of lessie faire moderation is that a lot of stuff gets said that would be verboten elsewhere.

However it has been my observation that trans people are usually the first to resort to before pictures, incorrect pronouns, or birth names in flame threads. But I don't read all threads on here so my perception could be skewed. http://i42.tinypic.com/2laelmp.gif



PS: I absolutely love your signature! How true. ;)


That signature seems a bit short.

I believe the full version reads:

Build a man a fire, he's warm for a day.
Light a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life.
Remove a man's hope & dreams, he'll set himself on fire for you so you won't have to
Distort a people's reality, they'll start setting themselves on fire to try to regain it

[BellaBellucci]

Unheard of? Not for this forum. One of the good & bad parts of lessie faire moderation is that a lot of stuff gets said that would be verboten elsewhere.

However it has been my observation that trans people are usually the first to resort to before pictures, incorrect pronouns, or birth names in flame threads. But I don't read all threads on here so my perception could be skewed. http://i42.tinypic.com/2laelmp.gif

The other thing about TS's? We're prone to hyperbole. ;)

However, I do think it's justified in this case. I can only wonder why some of these guys are even here.

Hey! Newsflash to those who would ever call a transsexual a man: this isn't your board. My suggestion is to come to terms with your own sexuality, not question ours.

~BB~

[yodajazz]

It's being called a "man" that I have an issue with. I've never been a "man" in my life, and I'm not going start acquiescing such nonsense to keep your life "country simple". If you need to refer to me as a "he-she" or a "shemale" or "it" or something other than a woman, that's your loss. But a "man"? No. You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down.
No. Calling a male a man is not the same as using those repulsive racial epithets. There is no equivalence there.

Calling Nicole a man is a personal insult to her, but it's also an insult to all transgender women. I know that you two have traded insults for a while, but there comes a point, it becomes pointless to continue. There comes a point when insulting a member of a community, becomes an insult to all in the community. Consider what key issues that she has had with you. I would say that she feels statements you made about trans women in general, were an attack on essence of the community. She was/is angry and expresses it. But that does not give you the right to deny her core identity. You are essentially proving the point that she has made about you. You feel you have the right to deny a person's sexual identity.

I will admit that there will always be some kind of gatekeeping criteria to determine who is male and female. But Phobun does not have the power to make that determination. You are wrong ofr doing so.

I am not excusing Nicole for her insults, but her insults are not an excuse for you to insult the community.

[transmaven]

The way it is is that I am not being put on a guilt trip to patronize him. Instead of defending a weak man who's a liability here, you should be defending your sisters if you are TS. Two cowards are calling us "men" and this person, who has insisted that I consider him as BF material(?), is now enjoying their cruel sense of humor? Not as my friend he won't. I've tried being pleasant and honest with him, responded to his PMs, sent him a pic or two, etc. But I'm drawing the line here and now.

If you want to enable him to be a dysfunctional mess, be my guest. But he will obviously cling to anyone who gives him the time of day. I don't hate him. I don't hate homeless people either, but I'm not being put on a guilt trip for not inviting them over and cooking them all dinner. If you take in every stray, you become a crazy cat lady. Therefore you accept that you can only be as good to others as you can be to yourself. I'm not a martyr. One by one, girls leave this forum. If you're content wth that phenomenon, I suppose "that's just the way it is, huh"?

Nicole,

I'm not TS. Regarding RB. You can ignore him w/o being so lustily cutting. That was my simple point. Because you write well you can do a surprising amount of damage with just a few sharp phrases. No need for anyone to be a saint or a martyr.

[Nicole Dupre]

Nicole,

I'm not TS. Regarding RB. You can ignore him w/o being so lustily cutting. That was my simple point. Because you write well you can do a surprising amount of damage with just a few sharp phrases. No need for anyone to be a saint or a martyr.

Perhaps if he was insisting that you gave him consideration as your boyfriend, you'd have a different perspective. But since you're obviously not intimately familiar with his incessant bullshit, or his sappy passive aggressive PMs, you should MYOFB. IMHO, a word to the wise should be sufficient. But, obviously, he's a pushy fucking idiot who needs a ton of bricks to land on his stagnant, fat body before he catches on.

If I have to waste my time finding the thread in which he started breathing down my fucking neck about how I should change my tastes in men to include him, I will.

[Nicole Dupre]

Calling Nicole a man is a personal insult to her, but it's also an insult to all transgender women. I know that you two have traded insults for a while, but there comes a point, it becomes pointless to continue. There comes a point when insulting a member of a community, becomes an insult to all in the community. Consider what key issues that she has had with you. I would say that she feels statements you made about trans women in general, were an attack on essence of the community. She was/is angry and expresses it. But that does not give you the right to deny her core identity. You are essentially proving the point that she has made about you. You feel you have the right to deny a person's sexual identity.

I will admit that there will always be some kind of gatekeeping criteria to determine who is male and female. But Phobun does not have the power to make that determination. You are wrong ofr doing so.

I am not excusing Nicole for her insults, but her insults are not an excuse for you to insult the community.

I challenge anyone here to not see the OCD pattern of self-loathing homophobic and transphobic hatred which Phobun has clearly established in his 1,660+ posts on this forum. http://www.hungangels.com/board/search.php?search_author=phobun

He is also a textbook case of self-projection. http://www.earthtym.net/bal-project.htm

[jcinva]

I challenge anyone here to not see the OCD pattern of self-loathing homophobic and transphobic hatred which Phobun has clearly established in his 1,660+ posts here.

There's homophobia on this board. And plenty of it.

But it appears to me that you, Nicole, have lost any moral standing to point your finger at anyone else on that particular charge. You have demonstrated considerable homophobia, right here, in this thread.

It doesn't appear to me you're due a pass simply because your personal vernacular is salted with colorful slurs for various groups, nor because of your personal gender self-identification.

Woman, man, trans, gay, straight - certain standards apply across the board. There's an accounting for what people say and how they say it. Even if all that's at stake is their reputation and credibility.

As far as I'm concerned, your tossing the "homophobe" flag is absolutely laughable. Yer just trollin'.

And before you ask, I suspect from your casual use of the "N" word here, too, at least twice, that you're a racist, to boot.

-------------------

This is like "master" thinking he would enter the kingdom heaven because he allowed his "negros" to sleep indoors. Because, to his way of thinking, they were his "house niggers" and he would call them whatever he pleased


You might as well start calling African Americans "niggers" and Latinos "spics" if that's the road you're so fucking comfortable traveling down.


Personally, if I had known that you two rectum wranglers were into WoW...


Yes. I use the terms "bitch", "whore", "tranny", "sexchange", "motherfucker", "faggot", "cocksucker", "queer", "fruit", "flamer", "spermguzzler", and "sissy" all as casual terms of endearment.

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm not admitting that I'm a queer or racist or that I'm in the closet. Instead, I'm going to change the subject. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

Oh shut up, you crybaby pussy. You WoW closetcase faggot. You homo. You queer. You cocksucking dicklicker. Go suck Phobun's dick, nelly. And don't tell me what context I've used any words in, you spermguzzling poof.

Now put on your shimmery leotards, and stroke your magical sword in your sparkly forrest, you dick-in-the-ass queerbait. :violin

[jcinva]

Oh shut up, you crybaby pussy. You WoW closetcase faggot. You homo. You queer. You cocksucking dicklicker. Go suck Phobun's dick, nelly. And don't tell me what context I've used any words in, you spermguzzling poof.

Now put on your shimmery leotards, and stroke your magical sword in your sparkly forrest, you dick-in-the-ass queerbait.

Can't leave now, hun. It's my job to draw all of the mob aggro.

No outing like a self-outing, is there? You got a lot of issues to work through, Nicole.

And to think, I almost confided in you that I'm black and Jewish.

Now! Go!

[Nicole Dupre]

Now put on your shimmery leotards, and stroke your magical sword in your sparkly forrest, you dick-in-the-ass queerbait. :violin

Can't leave now, hun. It's my job to draw all of the mob aggro.

And to think, I almost confided in you that I'm black and Jewish.

Now! Go!

Wtf do I care if you're "black"? Or if you're "Jewish"? You're also a "dick".

I'm "Sicilian" and a "bitch".

Nice to meet you, you fucking queer. Can I fuck you in your faggoty asshole now, or are we still in the middle of cyber foreplay?

[yodajazz]

I don't see where analyzing Nicole is helping, or making any difference. She clearly has 'pet phrases' for people that have drawn her displeasure, so I say let her go to be who she is, or who she thinks she is, at this time.
It's the same for all of us.

This thread has been about words, but there is a reality behind the debate that goes beyond words. Some males are attracted to t-girl, no matter what word you use to describe it. There is the possiblity that any two people here, male and trans woman could be wildly attracted to each other in person, even though they may wildly disagree here on which names to use for that attraction.

Even those that are not attracted to a person's looks from their photos here, could be turned on in the 'right' circumstance, if they were alone together, even if they did not intended it to happen. My point is that attacking someone personally does not change much the reality of they, and we are. There a reason why we are all here on thei sex orientated forum.

So the point is, those that are adults can agree to disagree. We all have the right to challenge people's statements they alledge as facts. I will particularly cite jcinva, for being logical. I have disagreed with some of his conclusions, but at least he presents rational arguments for his opinion. So we may have different opinion, but respect one another.

If someone insults you personally there is not that much to gain in trying to 'out insult' them. So let all of us cut back on the personal attacks and make this more of a discussion board.

[phobun]

Calling Nicole a man is a personal insult to her, but it's also an insult to all transgender women.I did not insult the community, nor did I insult all transgender women. Nor did I call Nicole a man. I said that calling a "male" a "man" is not equivalent to using the N-word. Sorry, it's not equivalent.

I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy (and, if they have had their gender changed by a court, a legal fiction) to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male.

Let's count the ways:

Male chromosomes? CHECK
Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
A male physique except for implants? CHECK
Male facial features? CHECK
Behave like a man? CHECK

Physically and biologically speaking, some transgenders are male. One can say that mentally they are female, but the only surrogate we have for a person's cognitive processes is his or her behavior, which in the case of certain transgenders, is too often confrontational, foul-mouthed and hypersexual (not exactly female traits!).

Nor do bad make-up, fingernail polish, misshapen implants and Nair by the truckload confer femininity.

Not all transgenders are female, and saying this does not mean I am insulting all transgenders.
I know that you two have traded insults for a while, but there comes a point, it becomes pointless to continue. I agree. I suspected Nicole was a bit nuts and I was trying to avoid Nicole with Mondo Pita, even as Nicole continued to insult and rant against me. But when I read Billy's hurtful post I turned it off and saw the full extent of what this Dupre lunatic wrote, even as Billy was taunted that none of the guys here cared. It was pure Ratchedesque sadism.

If Nicole does not want to be insulted, then Nicole must stop insulting and using vulgar epithets, then crying foul. But I fear the reality is that Nicole cannot stop. That is why I picture Nicole as a virtual runaway and outcast moving from city to city and forum to forum. As pathetic as it sounds, I wonder if this board is all Nicole has, and abuse all Nicole knows.

[rockabilly]

Why so serious ?
You must not have a sense of humor , when i "breathed down your neck" about me as bf material ... guess what ... it was a joke! I did the same thing w/ Libby and unlike you she rolled w/ it and we had some laughs and are cool w/ each other. I think you take things to seriously Nicole and read too much into what is said. But again i stress , i'm not mad.
I know the people that like me , and they are awesome. Say whatever you want about me , i honestly no longer care. Have a great evening.

[SarahG]

Male chromosomes? CHECK
Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
A male physique except for implants? CHECK
Male facial features? CHECK
Behave like a man? CHECK

I get the jest of what you're trying to say but I have trouble agreeing with your "check list."

IMHO transsexuals have existed as long has humanity has (give or take), including the era before we had medical science to treat it. So if you go back, say, a mere 80 years- transsexuals would almost without exception have "male facial features" unless they were lucky enough to be castrated before puberty... which probably was uncommon to say the least.

Even then, if someone had been castrated before or early into puberty- all that would mean is an absence of male facial features, not the presence of female facial features. To do that requires FFS & HRT technology, innovations that aren't even a lifetime old yet. Hell the first generation of widespread SRS patients aren't yet old enough to pass from old age, and that technology predated both FFS & HRT. Virtually every trans person who has received treatment to have died to date has died from various causes like suicide, murder, cancer, disease- whatever, because we're talking about such a small span of time here.

So using something like facial features as a "gauge" to determine whether or not a "transsexual is male" seems problematic as, at the least- it would skew any way of looking at the transsexuals that existed prior to these important medical breakthroughs. As for today- There's also no way of knowing who would eventually have their facial features changed/modified/corrected if they had the means to do so (whether we're talking better medical science to do what cannot currently be done, cheaper procedures, easier access to capital- etc.). Even someone who gets the best FFS available with current technology will, if they started HRT after a few years into puberty, have male skull features above the hairline making passability near impossible without hair (i.e. losing it when undergoing chemo treatments). The cost factor is also an issue of some kind, most people wouldn't have the means to immediately get every "flaw" they have fixed- and that's not even mentioning people who aren't healthy enough to put under the knife (various circumstances come into play here like various medical conditions that would make surgery risky). There are even trans people out there who can't go on HRT because doing so would kill them because of their unrelated medical problems.


However, to get back to the "jest" of what you're saying- I could see arguing that not everyone who is considered trans, is trans. What I mean by that is, there are people throughout history that people today assert to be trans, when there is no evidence to truly support that labeling. I.e. there are all kinds of stories of women throughout history who "pretended to be guys" for a temporary span of time so that they could perform a task or help with a movement they believed in. Famous example would be so that they could fight in combat during war. We have examples from our revolutionary war, our civil war- there are numerous European examples. It would seem dishonest to me, to assert that Joan of Arc was trans because she wore pants when she fought in combat.... but that's precisely the kind of revisionist labeling I see time & time again in online "trans spaces". Consider the story of Hedwig, if that storyline had been a real person & a real story... would getting (an albeit crude) SRS just to escape the Iron Curtain be sufficient criteria to consider someone TS? Medically I am not so sure, though I would expect someone to refer to someone like that with female pronouns anyway if that's what the person wanted. Tact & civility isn't a bad thing...

[Nicole Dupre]

I did not insult the community, nor did I insult all transgender women. Nor did I call Nicole a man. I said that calling a "male" a "man" is not equivalent to using the N-word. Sorry, it's not equivalent.

I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy (and, if they have had their gender changed by a court, a legal fiction) to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male.

Let's count the ways:

Male chromosomes? CHECK
Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
A male physique except for implants? CHECK
Male facial features? CHECK
Behave like a man? CHECK

Physically and biologically speaking, some transgenders are male. One can say that mentally they are female, but the only surrogate we have for a person's cognitive processes is his or her behavior, which in the case of certain transgenders, is too often confrontational, foul-mouthed and hypersexual (not exactly female traits!).

Nor do bad make-up, fingernail polish, misshapen implants and Nair by the truckload confer femininity.

Not all transgenders are female, and saying this does not mean I am insulting all transgenders.

I agree. I suspected Nicole was a bit nuts and I was trying to avoid Nicole with Mondo Pita, even as Nicole continued to insult and rant against me. But when I read Billy's hurtful post I turned it off and saw the full extent of what this Dupre lunatic wrote, even as Billy was taunted that none of the guys here cared. It was pure Ratchedesque sadism.

If Nicole does not want to be insulted, then Nicole must stop insulting and using vulgar epithets, then crying foul. But I fear the reality is that Nicole cannot stop. That is why I picture Nicole as a virtual runaway and outcast moving from city to city and forum to forum. As pathetic as it sounds, I wonder if this board is all Nicole has, and abuse all Nicole knows.

I'm glad to see that you're quick to defend a fat male virgin before you'd feel compelled to refer to a M2F TS as a female for any reason other than to patronize them.

And "virtual runaway". lol I like that. I lived at the same address for four years in Florida, only moving into a bigger unit. And now I live in NJ and commute into Manhattan, like many people who are far above the poverty level do. But perhaps I need to sit in one place all day on a big fat ass, and play WoW to prove my stability to a guy who keeps a chip firmly planted on his shoulder on a TS porn forum.

And "Ratchedesque sadism"? The Big Nurse never used colorful language. I'm verbally bashing you and your new BF because, well, you both really deserve it. But I'm sure the pop culture reference will keep both of your cocks in alignment. When will you two be going out to dinner and a movie, only returning home to suck one another's dorks?

And btw, your little OCD checklist is seriously flawed. There's not one absolute on it. In fact, most of that horseshit is subjective.

So tell us, what kind of mileage are you getting from your pretty magic carpet and pet buzzard, as you fly in the Magic Forest of Douche? Or do you have a favorite pretty unicorn that you're proud to ride through WoW's version of a Pride Parade? ;) Can Billy's big fat ass fit on the back?

[jcinva]

Tact & civility isn't a bad thing...


Tact and civility are nice. Certain realities and facts may be lost in their observation but, generally, the sacrifice is more than justified by the gain in pleasant intercourse.

It's tactful to overlook that your guest just drank from the finger bowl. It's something else, however, to call the finger bowl a drinking glass thereafter. There's the tactful convention, and then there's the reality. Important not to forget the latter for the sake of the former.

Tact and civility are also a mutual covenant. It's not reasonable to expect or demand all of the trappings of tactful intercourse while serving up such uncivil sobriquets as "faggot" or "queer."

As in: "Dude, not only do you drink out of a finger bowl, but you do it for a living! Who are you calling a 'queer'?"

[Teydyn]

because in all other respects, they are male.

Let's count the ways:

Male chromosomes? CHECK
Will be quite a while till you can change that...


Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
Avoiding drastic surgery and a 100% dependency on external hormones is not something worth considering?

Btw, after that definition, i am not a man.
I dont use my penis as a source of livelihood...


A male physique except for implants? CHECK
And thats something you can influence HOW if you start hormones AFTER puberty ends?


Male facial features? CHECK
So all the TS who do NOT escort and cant afford all the FFS they may want will NEVER be considered women? Again its a quite valid point to NOT do "unneeded" surgery.


Behave like a man? CHECK
How does a man behave? Trampling other peoples feelings? Or just being an individual human being?

[SarahG]

Tact and civility are also a mutual covenant. It's not reasonable to expect or demand all of the trappings of tactful intercourse while serving up such uncivil sobriquets as "faggot" or "queer."

If someone intentionally insults someone else, it is only reasonable that the later could say something back against the former. The question is not whether they should be able to react, but how they should react.

It's good and fair to respond within reason upon being intentionally insulted... if someone wants to make such a response there is nothing wrong with them doing so. But even then, there are lines that should not be crossed.

It would be in poor taste to use someone's trans-status (even if that status could be in debate) as a way of trying to insult them back, just as it would be in poor taste to use someone's disability as a way of insulting them back.

In an unmoderated "real world" people have the freedom to do things that are in poor taste of course. Which is why such matters ultimately become defining elements of class & ethics rather than liberties & law. Nonetheless, this isn't an "unmoderated 'real world'" by any stretch of the imagination. Something "in poor taste" could be made verboten at will here, and these rules and their enforcement would not have to be symmetrical.

[Nicole Dupre]

Why so serious ?
You must not have a sense of humor , when i "breathed down your neck" about me as bf material ... guess what ... it was a joke! I did the same thing w/ Libby and unlike you she rolled w/ it and we had some laughs and are cool w/ each other. I think you take things to seriously Nicole and read too much into what is said. But again i stress , i'm not mad.
I know the people that like me , and they are awesome. Say whatever you want about me , i honestly no longer care. Have a great evening.

Oh, trust me. I'm sure you're not mad. You have no spine. I'd assume you're incapable of feeling any emotions, unless you can drown them in a few biggie size value meals. And don't try that "I was just kidding" shit on me, because...

1. I'm not Libby, so I don't see what her "rolling with it" has to do with me. I told you politely at least 3 times that you were not my type. I don't see why anyone would have to do that more than once, unless they were being approached by someone who's seriously emotionally retarded.

2. Even if you were kidding, when do you stop making an ass of yourself and repeating the same sad jokes?

3. And seriously, who here really knows you? You've shown no pictures, and have a pretty sketchy sounding story. The grandma story? BULLSHIT! No grown man socially hobbles himself to take care of their grandmother in between spending every waking minute on a porn forum.

And that story you told me in the PM? That I didn't ask you to send me? The one where you asked me "why don't you like me"? Even though you claim that you actually don't care whether I like you? And then you felt compelled to make up a big bullshit story about how you family beat you up when they found your shemale porn stash? You remember that grandiose PM, right? Yeah. That also sounded like PURE BULLSHIT.

So can you stop insulting my intelligence? There are some real scumbags here, and you seem to be desperate enough to cling to anyone including them. So trust me, you're not my kinda guy. I like STRONG, CONFIDENT MEN. Men who don't let their bodies atrophy behind a computer or television screen all day. So if you don't have it in you get a little exercise or expand you horizons beyond porn and television, what can I do you for?

[yodajazz]

Calling Nicole a man is a personal insult to her, but it's also an insult to all transgender women.I did not insult the community, nor did I insult all transgender women. Nor did I call Nicole a man. I said that calling a "male" a "man" is not equivalent to using the N-word. Sorry, it's not equivalent.

I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy (and, if they have had their gender changed by a court, a legal fiction) to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male.

Let's count the ways:

Male chromosomes? CHECK
Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
A male physique except for implants? CHECK
Male facial features? CHECK
Behave like a man? CHECK

Physically and biologically speaking, some transgenders are male. One can say that mentally they are female, but the only surrogate we have for a person's cognitive processes is his or her behavior, which in the case of certain transgenders, is too often confrontational, foul-mouthed and hypersexual (not exactly female traits!).

Nor do bad make-up, fingernail polish, misshapen implants and Nair by the truckload confer femininity.

Not all transgenders are female, and saying this does not mean I am insulting all transgenders.
I know that you two have traded insults for a while, but there comes a point, it becomes pointless to continue. I agree. I suspected Nicole was a bit nuts and I was trying to avoid Nicole with Mondo Pita, even as Nicole continued to insult and rant against me. But when I read Billy's hurtful post I turned it off and saw the full extent of what this Dupre lunatic wrote, even as Billy was taunted that none of the guys here cared. It was pure Ratchedesque sadism.

If Nicole does not want to be insulted, then Nicole must stop insulting and using vulgar epithets, then crying foul. But I fear the reality is that Nicole cannot stop. That is why I picture Nicole as a virtual runaway and outcast moving from city to city and forum to forum. As pathetic as it sounds, I wonder if this board is all Nicole has, and abuse all Nicole knows.
It sounded to me like you were calling Nicole a man, form the implications of your statement. Social courtesty and legal recognition are closely related. But its your choice why you call them women. The major purpose is for others not to feel disrespected. But even in the above statement it sounds like you are saying that calling ts women, who have had legal documents changed to female is "fiction". That would seem to be like saying that naturalized citizens aren't real Americans, which a personal opinion vs legal fact.

Let's look at your list. I would feel that a person who meets all of your criteria is more male than female. But most of things on your list are judged based opinions vs quantified facts. What is "a male face", outside certain facial hair. Many women have noticable mustaches, for instance. And being paid to use your penis, is not a garuntee that you like having it. And behaving like a man, is more related to culture than actual gender standards. For example, male often surpress the ability to cry, because percieved social expetations. I get the impression that you may view feminine behavior by 19th century European statndards. Looking your avatar, Japan is one culture were female behaviors are more culturally restrictive. I have heard men say that American women are not real women based upon those old cultural expectations.

I have heard many time the accustation that some who appear to be trans women, are more male than female and only do it for the money, for example. But I very seldom have heard anyone accuse someone directly of that. It's not polite. You might call it 'social courtesty'. Now Nicole has been known to speak her mind, irrespective of social courtesy. But I believe that there are others here, who feel you are dismissive of certain types of classes of ts women. But not as many speak up, because of that some social courtesy.

[rockabilly]

A real man keeps his word. I promised to take care of her and i am.
When your extended family are redneck drunks things happen. I was beaten and it's over , i don't have to worry about them again. But thanks for making a private message public.
The people i trust know what i look like.And trust me your not my kinda girl. Don't mistake kindness for weakness. Bye Nicole

[Nicole Dupre]

A real man keeps his word. I promised to take care of her and i am.
When your extended family are redneck drunks things happen. I was beaten and it's over , i don't have to worry about them again. But thanks for making a private message public.
The people i trust know what i look like.And trust me your not my kinda girl. Don't mistake kindness for weakness. Bye Nicole

So why were you writing private messages to me in the first place if I'm not your type? Didn't we go through this nonsense months ago? I tried to politely say "no, thank you", but that obviously wasn't enough. You still want me to engage in some kind of online puppy love. Why set yourself up for that, not just once but repeatedly? Are you a masochist? I told you that I had nothing against you until you decided to pester me, and I meant it. So grow up, little boy, because I'm not buying into this victim BS.

[rockabilly]

Bye.
Your not worth my time Miss Nicole. This bores me and i'm sure you have better things to do. So truce on my side , have fun Nicole. :D

[rockabilly]

dbl post

[Nicole Dupre]

Calling Nicole a man is a personal insult to her, but it's also an insult to all transgender women.I did not insult the community, nor did I insult all transgender women. Nor did I call Nicole a man. I said that calling a "male" a "man" is not equivalent to using the N-word. Sorry, it's not equivalent.

I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy (and, if they have had their gender changed by a court, a legal fiction) to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male.

Let's count the ways:

Male chromosomes? CHECK
Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
A male physique except for implants? CHECK
Male facial features? CHECK
Behave like a man? CHECK

Physically and biologically speaking, some transgenders are male. One can say that mentally they are female, but the only surrogate we have for a person's cognitive processes is his or her behavior, which in the case of certain transgenders, is too often confrontational, foul-mouthed and hypersexual (not exactly female traits!).

Nor do bad make-up, fingernail polish, misshapen implants and Nair by the truckload confer femininity.

Not all transgenders are female, and saying this does not mean I am insulting all transgenders.
I know that you two have traded insults for a while, but there comes a point, it becomes pointless to continue. I agree. I suspected Nicole was a bit nuts and I was trying to avoid Nicole with Mondo Pita, even as Nicole continued to insult and rant against me. But when I read Billy's hurtful post I turned it off and saw the full extent of what this Dupre lunatic wrote, even as Billy was taunted that none of the guys here cared. It was pure Ratchedesque sadism.

If Nicole does not want to be insulted, then Nicole must stop insulting and using vulgar epithets, then crying foul. But I fear the reality is that Nicole cannot stop. That is why I picture Nicole as a virtual runaway and outcast moving from city to city and forum to forum. As pathetic as it sounds, I wonder if this board is all Nicole has, and abuse all Nicole knows.
It sounded to me like you were calling Nicole a man, form the implications of your statement. Social courtesty and legal recognition are closely related. But its your choice why you call them women. The major purpose is for others not to feel disrespected. But even in the above statement it sounds like you are saying that calling ts women, who have had legal documents changed to female is "fiction". That would seem to be like saying that naturalized citizens aren't real Americans, which a personal opinion vs legal fact.

Let's look at your list. I would feel that a person who meets all of your criteria is more male than female. But most of things on your list are judged based opinions vs quantified facts. What is "a male face", outside certain facial hair. Many women have noticable mustaches, for instance. And being paid to use your penis, is not a garuntee that you like having it. And behaving like a man, is more related to culture than actual gender standards. For example, male often surpress the ability to cry, because percieved social expetations. I get the impression that you may view feminine behavior by 19th century European statndards. Looking your avatar, Japan is one culture were female behaviors are more culturally restrictive. I have heard men say that American women are not real women based upon those old cultural expectations.

I have heard many time the accustation that some who appear to be trans women, are more male than female and only do it for the money, for example. But I very seldom have heard anyone accuse someone directly of that. It's not polite. You might call it 'social courtesty'. Now Nicole has been known to speak her mind, irrespective of social courtesy. But I believe that there are others here, who feel you are dismissive of certain types of classes of ts women. But not as many speak up, because of that some social courtesy.

Trust me, he's been indirectly and directly calling me a "man" for months, so there's no point in him trying to backpedal now. Meanwhile, we still haven't heard a word about his own intimate experiences with any transsexuals. But of course that's because he's never even met one, let alone dated a woman. Everything with him is a flawed theory, and weak speculation. He even had the nerve to associate demons with maleness, and tried pinning that on me until SarahG humiliated him with a little basic info. He proves that his head is up his closet gay ass here on a daily basis.

Oh, by the way, Phobun. I have now placed a doozie of a curse on you. I do indeed worship Satan, and you are in some seriously DEEP SHIT! :P

666
:rock2

[Belial]

Oh, by the way, Phobun. I have now placed a doozie of a curse on you. I do indeed worship Satan, and you are in some seriously DEEP SHIT! :P

666
:rock2

8)

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0903/exorcist_0313.jpg

[Nicole Dupre]

Oh, by the way, Phobun. I have now placed a doozie of a curse on you. I do indeed worship Satan, and you are in some seriously DEEP SHIT! :P

666
:rock2

8)

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0903/exorcist_0313.jpg

Oh, I put one on you too! :P

[Felicia Katt]

I'm late to this thread, and its gotten so rancorous I don't know my frail reasoning and reflections will have any resonance anymore, I had posted something similar to this before to no apparent lasting effect, but if at first you don't succeed...


Everyone is so consumed by labels, by what makes a male a male, and a female, a female, and what it means to be attracted to one or the other or both. But ultimately, all of the things that we think of to divide male from female: hair and skin and body size and shape and breasts, are all secondary sexual characteristics, and as such, they differentiate but they don't define. For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

But Male is not man and female is not woman. Your anatomy is not your gender, which is much more of a psychological construct than a physical absolute. Genitals are not what makes a man a man, or woman, a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man, or exclude you from being a woman. Your gender is between your ears, not your legs.

Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes. Being gay or straight is more about who you are attracted to, and why, and how you interact with them, and how you interrelate to the rest of the world. Being "gay" is more of a social political identity than a sexual one, just as being straight is. If an open admitted gay guy becomes celibate, he is still gay. If he sleeps with women, I would argue he is still gay as well. A man who is attracted to a transgendered woman can be straight. but he can't technically claim to be wholly heterosexual.

The term transsexual is an unfortunate one, because unlike homo and heterosexual, being transsexual is not about sex, its about gender. If they would have started with the term transgendered at the outset, instead of it evolving slowly and fitfully into more common usage, there might be a lot less confusion and angst among the transgendered community.

but we can never unring the bell as far as the terminology of transsexualism goes, so the term will continue to define gender and to confound how we deal with it.

I think rather than worrying about labels, that you should love who you love, or lust for those who you lust for, and do so proudly, and openly and shrug off those who would try to define or confine you. Sexuality is nothing if not fluid, and too many people are swimming against its current instead of going with the flow.

Peace

FK

[loren]

:popcorn

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm late to this thread, and its gotten so rancorous I don't know my frail reasoning and reflections will have any resonance anymore, I had posted something similar to this before to no apparent lasting effect, but if at first you don't succeed...


Everyone is so consumed by labels, by what makes a male a male, and a female, a female, and what it means to be attracted to one or the other or both. But ultimately, all of the things that we think of to divide male from female: hair and skin and body size and shape and breasts, are all secondary sexual characteristics, and as such, they differentiate but they don't define. For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

But Male is not man and female is not woman. Your anatomy is not your gender, which is much more of a psychological construct than a physical absolute. Genitals are not what makes a man a man, or woman, a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man, or exclude you from being a woman. Your gender is between your ears, not your legs.

Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes. Being gay or straight is more about who you are attracted to, and why, and how you interact with them, and how you interrelate to the rest of the world. Being "gay" is more of a social political identity than a sexual one, just as being straight is. If an open admitted gay guy becomes celibate, he is still gay. If he sleeps with women, I would argue he is still gay as well. A man who is attracted to a transgendered woman can be straight. but he can't technically claim to be wholly heterosexual.

The term transsexual is an unfortunate one, because unlike homo and heterosexual, being transsexual is not about sex, its about gender. If they would have started with the term transgendered at the outset, instead of it evolving slowly and fitfully into more common usage, there might be a lot less confusion and angst among the transgendered community.

but we can never unring the bell as far as the terminology of transsexualism goes, so the term will continue to define gender and to confound how we deal with it.

I think rather than worrying about labels, that you should love who you love, or lust for those who you lust for, and do so proudly, and openly and shrug off those who would try to define or confine you. Sexuality is nothing if not fluid, and too many people are swimming against its current instead of going with the flow.

Peace

FK

Thank you yet again for being one of the few voices of sanity on this forum.

[Nicole Dupre]

I want to add something to what Felecia said above.


But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes.

Ok. Here comes fluid thought, for whatever it's worth. Sue me if my spelling or grammar is off. I'm going to bed soon...

One of the things that divides the members of this forum more than any other is basic honesty. Transsexuals are all OUT. We have no closet where we hide a dirty secret from ourselves. Covering one's genitalia in public is an almost universally conventional practice. So on the social level, gender is an understatement. No one is expected to make an issue out of what's in their underwear at the DMV or in the grocery store. We all simply go forward and function on the most basic human level. But even those of us who are stealth and post-op, at least at some point, looked themselves in the eye and acknowledged that the risks we might be taking to do these very basic all-too-human things, constantly surrounded by potentially close-minded and volatile "normal" people, were far outweighed by the need to feel comfortable in our own skin. That single act of self-actualization represents a thought crime to most people. It scares them. Transsexuals are a taboo, first and foremost, because thinking for yourself is a taboo. We know this all-too-well and we wouldn't have it any other way. And we're even proud of it; perhaps not always openly and in public, but we acknowledge it FOR OURSELVES.

Yet the people who are attracted to us, more times than not, remain in the closet. And these sad individuals often wrestle with the living paradox that is US. And, since the libido essentially has no conscience, they often feel controlled and almost forced into embracing, not only their own sexual lusts, but a bona fide taboo. We make you feel "gay". We make you seem "gay". We challenge your parents, your families, your friends, and your concept of God. And some of you can't carry that load. Some of you can, of course. But perhaps most disturbing of all to those of you who can't is that WE DON'T CARE. We know damn well that there are far more of you who can't have us, for a number of reasons, than there are those who can have us. This phenomenon exists PLENTY with men and genetic women. But with TS women, it's infinitely multiplied. So often, the bottom line is, it kinda sucks to be you. But we're US, gentlemen, through sheer determination and inner-strength. If that's not something to marvel at and respect, nothing is. And you know it. And it intimidates the shit out of most of you. Ironically though, most us don't want to scare you. We simply want to be cherished and loved. But that's a cross that we bear.

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.

Peace.

[transmaven]

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.


That's what a lot of people mutter to themselves every day about life on earth. ;)

Not fair, no fun, etc.

**************

Here's a novel idea: sexuality *thrives* on taboo, hiddenness, shame and fear.

Forget all the nonsense about equality, honesty, justice, etc. Sex and desire are a species of darkness and that's what I love about them.

I like the low-down double-dealing dirty world of fucking. Outside of that eveyone can make nice. Civilization is a pleasure nicely opposed to sex. But always secondary. :P

[phobun]

Functioning male gonads? CHECK
A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK
Avoiding drastic surgery and a 100% dependency on external hormones is not something worth considering?

Btw, after that definition, i am not a man.
I dont use my penis as a source of livelihood...
Dude you kill me. If I chuckle when a MTF transgender claims to love "her cock" and uses said penis to bring home the bacon, it does not mean that a regular guy is not a man because he is not a prostitute.

[phobun]

But even in the above statement it sounds like you are saying that calling ts women, who have had legal documents changed to female is "fiction". That would seem to be like saying that naturalized citizens aren't real Americans, which a personal opinion vs legal fact.
I did not say that it is a legal fiction when TS women have their legal documents changed. I'll repeat with emphasis:
"I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy (and, if they have had their gender changed by a court, a legal fiction) to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male."

Let's look at your list. I would feel that a person who meets all of your criteria is more male than female.
The list is shit, man. I tried to illustrate that there are some folks who claim to be TS, but who are nonetheless male physically, hormonally and behaviorally. If someone refers to them as "men", it is not the same as calling a black man the "N-word".

That was my point. There is no equivalence between calling a transgender who looks and acts like a male a "man", and calling a black man the N-word.

Looking your avatar, Japan is one culture were female behaviors are more culturally restrictive.
The girl in the avatar is actually Thai. Regardless, I'm not into docile, obedient women. Smart women are hot. There is a transsexual on this forum who has never shown a picture as far as I know, but she is sexy as hell.

[phobun]

IMHO transsexuals have existed as long has humanity has (give or take), including the era before we had medical science to treat it. So if you go back, say, a mere 80 years- transsexuals would almost without exception have "male facial features" unless they were lucky enough to be castrated before puberty... which probably was uncommon to say the least. Even then, if someone had been castrated before or early into puberty- all that would mean is an absence of male facial features, not the presence of female facial features. To do that requires FFS & HRT technology, innovations that aren't even a lifetime old yet. Hell the first generation of widespread SRS patients aren't yet old enough to pass from old age, and that technology predated both FFS & HRT. Virtually every trans person who has received treatment to have died to date has died from various causes like suicide, murder, cancer, disease- whatever, because we're talking about such a small span of time here.

So using something like facial features as a "gauge" to determine whether or not a "transsexual is male" seems problematic as, at the least- it would skew any way of looking at the transsexuals that existed prior to these important medical breakthroughs. As for today- There's also no way of knowing who would eventually have their facial features changed/modified/corrected if they had the means to do so (whether we're talking better medical science to do what cannot currently be done, cheaper procedures, easier access to capital- etc.). Even someone who gets the best FFS available with current technology will, if they started HRT after a few years into puberty, have male skull features above the hairline making passability near impossible without hair (i.e. losing it when undergoing chemo treatments). The cost factor is also an issue of some kind, most people wouldn't have the means to immediately get every "flaw" they have fixed- and that's not even mentioning people who aren't healthy enough to put under the knife (various circumstances come into play here like various medical conditions that would make surgery risky). There are even trans people out there who can't go on HRT because doing so would kill them because of their unrelated medical problems.


However, to get back to the "jest" of what you're saying- I could see arguing that not everyone who is considered trans, is trans. What I mean by that is, there are people throughout history that people today assert to be trans, when there is no evidence to truly support that labeling. I.e. there are all kinds of stories of women throughout history who "pretended to be guys" for a temporary span of time so that they could perform a task or help with a movement they believed in. Famous example would be so that they could fight in combat during war. We have examples from our revolutionary war, our civil war- there are numerous European examples. It would seem dishonest to me, to assert that Joan of Arc was trans because she wore pants when she fought in combat.... but that's precisely the kind of revisionist labeling I see time & time again in online "trans spaces". Consider the story of Hedwig, if that storyline had been a real person & a real story... would getting (an albeit crude) SRS just to escape the Iron Curtain be sufficient criteria to consider someone TS? Medically I am not so sure, though I would expect someone to refer to someone like that with female pronouns anyway if that's what the person wanted. Tact & civility isn't a bad thing...
I always enjoy reading your thoughts. I willl emphasize what I wrote: I think TS women are women. Men who are TS but not transitioned are men who are TS but not transitioned. And the "male facial features" was just one of many features that I listed to describe how SOME transgenders are male, physically, hormonally and behaviorally. Of course, we all know TS women who have a strong brow (or nose or jawline or all of the above), but who are obviously transsexual because their conscious actions and non-verbal demeanor are feminine. Being transsexual does not require looking airbrushed. But the cock-wielding prostitutes who look and act like men, then call guys "faggot", are phonies. Where is Holden Caulfield these days?

[phobun]

Trust me, he's been indirectly and directly calling me a "man" for months, so there's no point in him trying to backpedal now.
You seem paranoid with a persecution complex. Get help.

Meanwhile, we still haven't heard a word about his own intimate experiences with any transsexuals.
Obsessed too? Fuck, you're nuts.

[phobun]

Bye.
Your not worth my time Miss Nicole. This bores me and i'm sure you have better things to do. So truce on my side , have fun Nicole. :D
Good for you Billy. You should feel good if you don't do it for Nicole.
But I wonder if Nicole got turned on when Nicole showed you some that sadism?

[Teydyn]

because in all other respects, they are male.
Let's count the ways:

A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK


and uses said penis to bring home the bacon, it does not mean that a regular guy is not a man because he is not a prostitute.
Thats exactly what you you did.

[thx1138]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YCOD6eswN0&feature=related

[trish]

Most, but not all, transgender women on this board are genetically male, and their bodies before transition expressed most of the secondary sexual characteristics that statistically correlate to being an XY-male. Most transgender women on this board, due to their own efforts, now defy those correlations. What we’ve learned in the past several decades is that phenotype is not determined by genotype and that phenotype is mutable (by extra-developmental means). We have undergone transition because of an intolerable tension between our gender identity and our phenotypic expression. A woman may be genetically XY, her phenotype can be what she pleases it to be and her gender is female. What’s so hard about that?

What hangs some folks up is the fact that gender is a social construction, while genetic constitution is not. Gender is not our only example of a social construction. A paradigm example is the notion of property. Property, in the sense of ownership, is not a scientific concept. There is not physical or chemical bond between an object and its owner. The two of them do not exchange special ownership gluons. There is no scientific test that one can perform to decide ownership. That because ownership and property are social constructions. You own the things you have only because everyone recognizes you own them. Without that recognition ownerships evaporates and no amount of metaphysics will restore it. Consequently it would be fallacy to say, “I’m the first to recognize you own your home, but it’s merely a social courtesy and in all other aspects you don’t own it.” Wrong, because the deed is a certificate of recognition of ownership and that recognition is all that ownership is. Wrong, because social constructions are not mere courtesies. They are stable social contracts rooted in custom and human psychology; some people even mistake them for metaphysical absolutes. Yet, it seems to me, that’s exactly the fallacy engendered by Phobun’s statement:

"I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy … to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male."

The gender of a woman is female in all aspects, whether she takes public transportation to work or drives, because her mode of transportation is not a relevant aspect to the social construct known as gender. The gender of a woman is female in all aspects, whether she is genetically male or genetically female, because genetic sex is not a relevant factor.

[SarahG]

For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

I have to respectfully disagree with that, on a few separate points- the first being the existance of people with truly ambiguous genitalia, and the second being the people without any genitalia or reproductive organs at all.

If we define sex based on genitalia, and then only have two sex categories to choose from, then as a classification scheme we can't coupe with oddball situations.

Oddball cases are what would "prove the rule's validity," and in this case it shows the rule isn't sufficient to work under all possible scenarios.

Further, there is another organ in the body that heavily depends on sex, and one that cannot be changed. That's the brain. Brains are very different based on sex. They're structurally different, they operate differently- you can put a male and a female under brainscans and have them perform a common task and find the brain does the task differently depending on brain-sex. IF, for arguments shake, the "but my brain is female" statements MtF trans people are known for is true (this point could be scientifically vetted out at some point in the future), then that means they have brains whose sex is female, which in my eyes is as important if not more important than genitalia.

Someone's chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, fertility, endocrine system, and gender/social roles could all be completely uniformly female. If their brain-sex is male, it won't matter- they won't act as a female (and by that I mean in tangible "how the brain does things" way and not gender role fabrications from socialization). You'd have essentially a guy who looks like a girl, has a girl's hardware, and lives as a girl for all practical purposes- but is far from being a girl because of all the ways the brain-sex comes into play.


Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

Which would make a sexual encounter with someone who lacks genitalia... or has naturally ambiguous genitalia what exactly?

[BlackAdder]

OP is fucking lame. Go to a psychologist if you want therapy.

[BellaBellucci]

I want to add something to what Felecia said above.


But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes.

Ok. Here comes fluid thought, for whatever it's worth. Sue me if my spelling or grammar is off. I'm going to bed soon...

One of the things that divides the members of this forum more than any other is basic honesty. Transsexuals are all OUT. We have no closet where we hide a dirty secret from ourselves. Covering one's genitalia in public is an almost universally conventional practice. So on the social level, gender is an understatement. No one is expected to make an issue out of what's in their underwear at the DMV or in the grocery store. We all simply go forward and function on the most basic human level. But even those of us who are stealth and post-op, at least at some point, looked themselves in the eye and acknowledged that the risks we might be taking to do these very basic all-too-human things, constantly surrounded by potentially close-minded and volatile "normal" people, were far outweighed by the need to feel comfortable in our own skin. That single act of self-actualization represents a thought crime to most people. It scares them. Transsexuals are a taboo, first and foremost, because thinking for yourself is a taboo. We know this all-too-well and we wouldn't have it any other way. And we're even proud of it; perhaps not always openly and in public, but we acknowledge it FOR OURSELVES.

Yet the people who are attracted to us, more times than not, remain in the closet. And these sad individuals often wrestle with the living paradox that is US. And, since the libido essentially has no conscience, they often feel controlled and almost forced into embracing, not only their own sexual lusts, but a bona fide taboo. We make you feel "gay". We make you seem "gay". We challenge your parents, your families, your friends, and your concept of God. And some of you can't carry that load. Some of you can, of course. But perhaps most disturbing of all to those of you who can't is that WE DON'T CARE. We know damn well that there are far more of you who can't have us, for a number of reasons, than there are those who can have us. This phenomenon exists PLENTY with men and genetic women. But with TS women, it's infinitely multiplied. So often, the bottom line is, it kinda sucks to be you. But we're US, gentlemen, through sheer determination and inner-strength. If that's not something to marvel at and respect, nothing is. And you know it. And it intimidates the shit out of most of you. Ironically though, most us don't want to scare you. We simply want to be cherished and loved. But that's a cross that we bear.

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.

Peace.

This is awesome. Simply. Awesome.

~BB~

[Felicia Katt]

Sarah, its artificially a binary system only, and an imprecise one at best, based on superficial, observable criteria, like any other sort of general classification scheme. If you go into genetics or endocrines or neural or reproductive or skeletal structures, or any number of other less readily apparent markers, it falls apart. But as imperfect as it may be, its the one we have to work within, absent some radical social change. Other cultures, past and present, were more enlightened then we are, with the berdache and the hejra and such, but in the west, its presently 2 genders and only 2 to tango.

With respect to the intersexed, or those sexually neutered, as with transgenders, I would personally have no problem opening the system to additional categories, but the rest of our society is not yet so willing. As you know, for those born with ambiguous genitals, tough, unfair medical choices are usually made, to force the oval peg into one round hole or the other. I'm not aware of too many people with no genitals at all, except through trauma, and then it would be what they were before or how they choose to self express after. Either way, it remains an either or dynamic, no matter how flawed or unfair.

I'm not advocating for this, only for how to best work within it. I think we need less labels, not more. Ideally, it would be great if the only label were human, and the only judgment on relationships were on how well they worked for the people in them. But until we reach that Utopian ideal, I stand by what I said about love and lust and letting those things chart your sexual course, not some rigid social way-points that often only lead to unhappiness.

FK

[fred41]

Ok. Here comes fluid thought, for whatever it's worth. Sue me if my spelling or grammar is off. I'm going to bed soon...

One of the things that divides the members of this forum more than any other is basic honesty. Transsexuals are all OUT. We have no closet where we hide a dirty secret from ourselves. Covering one's genitalia in public is an almost universally conventional practice. So on the social level, gender is an understatement. No one is expected to make an issue out of what's in their underwear at the DMV or in the grocery store. We all simply go forward and function on the most basic human level. But even those of us who are stealth and post-op, at least at some point, looked themselves in the eye and acknowledged that the risks we might be taking to do these very basic all-too-human things, constantly surrounded by potentially close-minded and volatile "normal" people, were far outweighed by the need to feel comfortable in our own skin. That single act of self-actualization represents a thought crime to most people. It scares them. Transsexuals are a taboo, first and foremost, because thinking for yourself is a taboo. We know this all-too-well and we wouldn't have it any other way. And we're even proud of it; perhaps not always openly and in public, but we acknowledge it FOR OURSELVES.

Yet the people who are attracted to us, more times than not, remain in the closet. And these sad individuals often wrestle with the living paradox that is US. And, since the libido essentially has no conscience, they often feel controlled and almost forced into embracing, not only their own sexual lusts, but a bona fide taboo. We make you feel "gay". We make you seem "gay". We challenge your parents, your families, your friends, and your concept of God. And some of you can't carry that load. Some of you can, of course. But perhaps most disturbing of all to those of you who can't is that WE DON'T CARE. We know damn well that there are far more of you who can't have us, for a number of reasons, than there are those who can have us. This phenomenon exists PLENTY with men and genetic women. But with TS women, it's infinitely multiplied. So often, the bottom line is, it kinda sucks to be you. But we're US, gentlemen, through sheer determination and inner-strength. If that's not something to marvel at and respect, nothing is. And you know it. And it intimidates the shit out of most of you. Ironically though, most us don't want to scare you. We simply want to be cherished and loved. But that's a cross that we bear.

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.

Peace.

Seems like a pretty accurate take..judging by a lot of the threads on this site.

[archineer]

Isn't this thread dead yet?

[russtafa]

some guys on this forum are so homophopic and love to air their views on this forum against any body that dosent agree with them

[giovanni_hotel]

Why are the guys who have the most hangups with TG women also the ones who sign up and frequently post on HA and beat up on the girls??

Is it just guilt for being intensely sexually attracted to transwomen??

[southern81]

man why care what other people think the only thing that is important is what u think

[Teydyn]

the only thing that is important is what u think
Thats right, most of the time. But on this board its not. The girls arent leaving because everyone is nice to them...

[dgs925]

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.

Now that is simply awesome!

[Distance]

the only thing that is important is what u think
Thats right, most of the time. But on this board its not. The girls arent leaving because everyone is nice to them...

That's ridiculous. You only get what you give.


Have you read any invectives towards SarahG, Trish, Peggygee, Hazel for example? I doubt there have been (m)any...because they do command respect. They are females to me, no questions, not a single doubt.


You'll find some ts here, using this board as a projected therapy against their very own insecurities, violent paranoia, the hate of their own gender or sexual issues. Acting, talking like men, behaving like men. Nothing to do with females at all, really. Oh, and heterophobia, too.

[russtafa]

females or not females all people deserve respect tgirls,gays, lesbians =treat them as you would be treated

[Jericho]

Acting, talking like men, behaving like men. Nothing to do with females at all, really. Oh, and heterophobia, too.


Hmmmm, "Acting, talking like men, behaving like men"
How do men act, talk, behave?
How do women behave?

Do you know any real (not the best choice of word, but, for the sake of arguement...) wimmin?
Have you seen them out on the lash of a saturday night?
Not very ladylike!

On another note.
Not that i'd dare speak for her :lol: , but, I think even Nicole would admit, sometimes, she never knows when to shut the fuck up, but, this board would be a damn sight poorer without her!

That last piece she wrote was awesome. :rock2

[Distance]

females or not females all people deserve respect tgirls,gays, lesbians =treat them as you would be treated

True, works all ways. Don't forget heteros either. :lol:

[Distance]

Acting, talking like men, behaving like men. Nothing to do with females at all, really. Oh, and heterophobia, too.


Hmmmm, "Acting, talking like men, behaving like men"
How do men act, talk, behave?
How do women behave?

Do you know any real (not the best choice of word, but, for the sake of arguement...) wimmin?
Have you seen them out on the lash of a saturday night?
Not very ladylike!

On another note.
Not that i'd dare speak for her :lol: , but, I think even Nicole would admit, sometimes, she never knows when to shut the fuck up, but, this board would be a damn sight poorer without her!

That last piece she wrote was awesome. :rock2

Do you need to ask yourself/anyone that first question? Acting like angry men is brutality, agressivity, being trashier than simply being rude. Tell people you want to fuck them somewhere hard and that they should suck your dick...amongst many examples. Unless we don't have the same definitions, that is.



It is something you feel: you feel when the person is masculine or feminine. And some not only feel like, but sound like, and behave like. Comprende, I hope.

[bcorning08]

someone synced up darkside of the moon and the wizard of oz

[Jericho]

Acting, talking like men, behaving like men. Nothing to do with females at all, really. Oh, and heterophobia, too.


Hmmmm, "Acting, talking like men, behaving like men"
How do men act, talk, behave?
How do women behave?

Do you know any real (not the best choice of word, but, for the sake of arguement...) wimmin?
Have you seen them out on the lash of a saturday night?
Not very ladylike!

On another note.
Not that i'd dare speak for her :lol: , but, I think even Nicole would admit, sometimes, she never knows when to shut the fuck up, but, this board would be a damn sight poorer without her!

That last piece she wrote was awesome. :rock2

Do you need to ask yourself/anyone that first question? Acting like angry men is brutality, agressivity, being trashier than simply being rude. Tell people you want to fuck them somewhere hard and that they should suck your dick...amongst many examples. Unless we don't have the same definitions, that is.



It is something you feel: you feel when the person is masculine or feminine. And some not only feel like, but sound like, and behave like. Comprende, I hope.

So, in otherwords, you want them to live by your standard of femininity.
Here's 10 bucks, go buy a copy of Mrs Beetons cookbook...I think you'll be very happy together. :shrug

[Distance]

Acting, talking like men, behaving like men. Nothing to do with females at all, really. Oh, and heterophobia, too.


Hmmmm, "Acting, talking like men, behaving like men"
How do men act, talk, behave?
How do women behave?

Do you know any real (not the best choice of word, but, for the sake of arguement...) wimmin?
Have you seen them out on the lash of a saturday night?
Not very ladylike!

On another note.
Not that i'd dare speak for her :lol: , but, I think even Nicole would admit, sometimes, she never knows when to shut the fuck up, but, this board would be a damn sight poorer without her!

That last piece she wrote was awesome. :rock2

Do you need to ask yourself/anyone that first question? Acting like angry men is brutality, agressivity, being trashier than simply being rude. Tell people you want to fuck them somewhere hard and that they should suck your dick...amongst many examples. Unless we don't have the same definitions, that is.



It is something you feel: you feel when the person is masculine or feminine. And some not only feel like, but sound like, and behave like. Comprende, I hope.

So, in otherwords, you want them to live by your standard of femininity.
Here's 10 bucks, go buy a copy of Mrs Beetons cookbook...I think you'll be very happy together. :shrug

My standards of feminity? Yeah then, you and I don't have the same standards, it is obvious. :lol:


I don't accept money from old men anyways. You may keep it for the young boys you are courting, and teach them your own salacious recipes. ;)

[Distance]

someone synced up darkside of the moon and the wizard of oz

And it works, since you must have tried it. Now get back to dark side of the spoon. :roll:

[Jericho]

My standards of feminity? Yeah then, you and I don't have the same standards, it is obvious. :lol:

fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. :P

[trish]

Jericho comments on Nicole and her last post:
...this board would be a damn sight poorer without her!

That last piece she wrote was awesome. Rock on


Amen. Thank you Nicole.

[fred41]

fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. :P

Where have you been? Now I learned something new: Mrs. Beetons Cookbook. I had to Google it of course. Welcome back.



..Oh yeah..I had to google the above quote also. (this has become a learning center..lol)