2000 dead soldiers in Iraq...how many more?

[chefmike]

2000 dead...

and the chimp-in-chief says...we must continue the war on terrer...(mispelling intended)

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

a war on terror
lol, we taught them how to terrorize others
seems more like eradication of past mistakes..........

p.s. I would rather stand in front of GOD for my beliefs, lifestyle, and political views than stand in front of GOD as George Bush Sr. or Jr. right about now............

[chefmike]

as the chimp-in-chief said: "that fella Saddam wanted to kill my daddy!"

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

LOL @ Chef

China & North Korea have been quietly doing some of the same SHIT that Saddam did in his reign, but Bush knows better........................
bully picking on the kid he knows he can beat
pathetic

[chefmike]

Amen...and people still bury their fucking heads in the sand...and vote on what people do behind closed doors...I heard an expression once...something like...the ostrich can bury his head in the sand...but that will not stop the lion from attacking him...

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I read something about a European country allowing it's citizens the ability to vote via their cell phones. They better master that shit quick and implement it into the US'.............................
lol can you imagine the vote turnout?
you'd have folks trying to buy prepay phones to get an extra vote in
HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you might also have every woman in the country vote and put Hillary in the Oval Office..........
they do outnumber us 3 to 1

[yourdaddy]

You silly little newbies. AS many as it takes. You dumbies don't know your asses from a hole in the ground. Are you trying to impress the ladies or something? i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

[AllanahStarrNYC]

????

I don't think anyone is criticizing the troops-

Its' the president who is responsible- and is doing a very bad job.
And he is accountable for the deaths of our soldiers.

[yourdaddy]

Bull shit!!!!! Where were you on 9/11 pendejo? That was what we inherited from Slick willie doing absolutely nothing about terrorism for 8 years.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

lol did u just call me a pubic hair? ewww

were was i-

i was on riventon st- at a friends apartment
watching the towersa burn and fall from his terrace-

by coincidence we were supposed to travel that day and i spent the night at his house.

that is were i was-

and hmm isthink its been pretty much clarified that 9/11 has nothing to do with the war in iraq- since no wmds in iraq and the goverment said itself saddam has no ties to 9/11. entered a war with no clear exit strategy and 2,000 are dead? you call this a success? if anything the war had made the united states and iraq itself less safer and a breeding ground for terrorist.

a false war, sold on false information.

[yourdaddy]

When are you denying dummies gonna come up with a new line ? It is way too convenient for you to lay blame on the President. I was young, dumb, and foolish once too. What are you going to say when Wahabi-ism is finally chased out of Saudi Arabia, and the Middle East has some semblence of joining the 21st century?

[hillbilly]

lol. so what's your excuse now for being dumb?

[yourdaddy]

Oh I forgot.... Naive liberals don't even know about Wahabi. I'm wasting my time.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Bush's job approval teeters on the brink


WASHINGTON — President Bush's declining job approval ratings have been the subject of much talk and speculation in recent months.

Last week, he hit 39 percent, the lowest level of his presidency, in the USA Today-CNN-Gallup Poll.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

well by your post you are suggesting you are old-

since we are "young, dumb, and foolish"

by your posts and clear lack of understanding of what is going on and the truths discovered about the goverment and the war

that would now make you

OLD, STUPID, AND IDIOTIC

i guess things to do not change much after all.

[chefmike]

You silly little newbies. AS many as it takes. You dumbies don't know your asses from a hole in the ground. Are you trying to impress the ladies or something? i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

I served four years on the flight deck of the USS Kitty Hawk, asshole...Lloyds of London rates it as one of the world's most dangerous jobs..."slick willie's" staff briefings were ignored by the incoming prez shrub...and let's talk about condi "let them eat shoes" rice testifying be fore the 9/11 comission that she ignored memo regarding 9/11 warnings...better go back to rush the junkie, sean the schmuck hannity et al and check your facts...because IM YOUR DADDY.... NEXT YOUR GONNA SAY AMERICA...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT, RIGHT...putz...why are we in Iraq? why are we in Iraq? as many as it takes?...you have relatives in Iraq? If you do better say bye while you got the chance!!! you poor sap!!

[hillbilly]

ah central florida that explains a lot.

please please try and tell me we aren't there for oil. i beg you to tell me we have noble reasons of freedom and democracy. hey daddy nobody asked for our government or social system.

naive? no no no son. how is that in the city that was attacked on sept 11 i can't find a single person who believes in your oil war? hmm odd isn't it?

[yourdaddy]

When's the last time you knew anyone that was asked a question in the CNN poll? I've been around for over half a century, chicita. I never knew anyone who saw a pollster. It's all media hype. Can you even start to imagine where we would be if that no-balls, vassilating, mamajuevo, al gore had won the election? We'd still be trying to kiss Bin Laden's ass.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Thanks!

This one is for your daddy in his futile attempt tp claim 9/11 had something to do with the Iraq War-

9/11 Panel Finds No Ties Between Hussein And 9/11 Attacks

MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 6:48 p.m. ET June 16, 2004

WASHINGTON - The commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks reported Wednesday that Osama bin Laden met with a top Iraqi official in 1994 but found “no credible evidence” of a link between Iraq and al-Qaida in attacks against the United States.

In a report based on research and interviews by the commission staff, the panel said that bin Laden made overtures to toppled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein for assistance, as he did with leaders in Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan and elsewhere as he sought to build an Islamic army.

The report said that bin Laden explored possible cooperation with Saddam at the urging of allies in Sudan eager to protect their own ties to Iraq, even though the al-Qaida leader had previously provided support for “anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan.

[khelendross]

I would sujest just listen to anything Allanah says! shes smart and knows more than most of us will ever know, smart and sexy....that's just deadly.

[chefmike]

When are you denying dummies gonna come up with a new line ? It is way too convenient for you to lay blame on the President. I was young, dumb, and foolish once too. What are you going to say when Wahabi-ism is finally chased out of Saudi Arabia, and the Middle East has some semblence of joining the 21st century?

Saudi Arabia? LMFAO!!!!!!!!!! The Saudi's OWN the fuckin Bush family!!! YOU DUMB FUCK!!!

[AllanahStarrNYC]

lol @ central florida

i loved how he asked me where i was @ 9/11- while you were in central florida

i was in new york city watching the towers fall

this is my city- where i live- so please lay off the republican propraganda of exploting 9/11

[yourdaddy]

Que stupida, no me jolla. I never said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. That dictatorship would have fallen anyway, with Iran's help. Really smart move to go there and fight. Someday, when you get away from the influence of the ny times, you might realize it. I'm going back the my Asian TS website, and take that "razors edge off". You kids are hopeless.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Bush & Bin Laden - George W. Bush Had Ties to Billionaire bin Laden Brood

The unexplained death of Salem, Osama bin Laden's oldest brother, in 1988, brought to an abrupt end a long and intriguing relationship between President Bush and the head of the bin Laden family fortune.

By Roger Miller

The world now associates the bin Laden name with Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect be hind the terror atrocities of Sept. 11. As President George W. Bush leads an intense international manhunt for Osama, few Americans realize that Osama's eldest brother, Salem, was one of Bush's first business partners.

A photograph from 1971 has surfaced and been printed in English papers showing Osama, age 14, and his brother Salem, age 19, enjoying a summer holiday at the Astoria Hotel in Falun, Sweden. Christina Akerblad, the hotel owner, told the Daily Mail, "They were beautiful boys, so elegantly dressed. Everybody loved them."

Osama embraced Islamic fundamentalism and is now the world's most wanted man. "Salem went on to become a business partner of the man who is leading the hunt for his brother," the Daily Mail's Peter Allen said. "In the 1970s, he and George W. Bush were founders of the Arbusto Energy oil company in Mr. Bush's home state of Texas."

President Bush and the bin Laden family have been connected through dubious business deals since 1977, when Salem, the head of the bin Laden family business, one of the biggest construction companies in the world, invested in Bush's start-up oil company, Arbusto Energy, Inc.

James R. Bath, a friend and neighbor, was used to funnel money from Osama bin Laden's brother, Salem bin Laden, to set up George W. Bush in the oil business, according to The Wall Street Journal and other reputable sources.

Through a tangled web of Saudi multi-millionaires, Texas oilmen, and the infamous Bank of Credit and Commerce International, Bush was financially linked with the bin Laden family until Salem met an untimely end in a freak flying accident near San Antonio in 1988.

The infamous BCCI was shut down in 1991 with some $10 billion in losses.

In June 1977, George W. Bush formed his own oil drilling company, Arbusto Energy, in Midland, Tex.

"Arbusto" actually means "shrub" in Spanish, but the Bush family interpreted it as "bush".
Salem bin Laden, a close friend of the Saudi King Fahd had "invested heavily in Bush's first business venture," according to The Daily Mail (U.K.).

Arbusto later became Bush Exploration, when Bush's father became vice president. As the company neared financial collapse in September 1984, it was merged with Spectrum 7 Energy Corp. in an effort to stay afloat.

The 50 investors who propped up the Bush company with $4.7 million were "mainly friends of my uncle" who "did pretty good" in Bush's words, although they lost most of the money they invested in the company. Jon Bush, George's uncle, raised money for Arbusto from political supporters of the Reagan-Bush administration.

"These were all the Bushs' pals," family friend Russell Reynolds told the Dallas Morning News in 1998. "This is the A-Team."

The "A-Team" limited partners contributed $4.67 million to various Bush funds through 1984 but got only $1.55 million back in profit distributions, and $3.9 million in tax write-offs.

William DeWitt and Mercer Reynolds, two staunch Reagan-Bush supporters, owned Spectrum 7.

Despite his poor track record, the owners made Bush president of the company and gave him 13.6 percent of the parent company's stock.
surprise deal

As the hard times continued, Spectrum merged with Harken Energy in 1986. In 1990, Harken received a contract from the government of Bahrain to drill for offshore oil although Harken Energy had never drilled a well overseas or anywhere in water.

"Knowledgeable oil company sources believe that the Bahrain oil concession was indeed an oblique favor to the president of the United States but say that Saudi Arabia (home of bin Laden) was behind the decision," according to The Outlaw Bank: A Wild Ride Into the Secret Heart of the BCCI, by Jonathan Beaty and S.C. Gwynne.

It raised oil-industry eyebrows when the Persian Gulf state announced it had chosen tiny Harken to explore an offshore site for gas and oil. Bahrain officials said they had no idea President Bush's son was associated with Harken, a claim oil-industry sources ridicule.
The Bahrain deal was brokered in part by Arkansas investment banker David Edwards, one of Bill Clinton's closest friends. The Bahrain oil project resulted in two dry holes and Harken energy abandoned the project.

Two months before Iraq invaded Kuwait, on June 20, 1990, the younger Bush sold two-thirds of his Harken stock, 212,140 shares at $4 a share-for a total of $848,560.
"That was $318,430 more than it was worth," Dr. Arthur F. Ide, author of George W. Bush: Portrait of a Compassionate Conservative, said. "George W. broke the law to do this since the transaction was an insider stock sale."

Eight days later, Harken finished the second quarter with losses of $23 million and the stock went "into a nosedive" losing 75 percent of its value, finishing the year at a little over $1 a share.

"Like his father who made his fortune in the oil business with the money of others, George W. founded Arbusto with the financial backing of investors, including James R. Bath," said the late James Howard Hatfield, author of a "controversial biography," Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Mak ing of an American President.

Hatfield, 43, was found dead of an apparent prescription drug overdose in a hotel room in Springdale, Ark. on July 18, 2001. Police declined to investigate.

Bath became friends with George W. during their days together in the Texas Air National Guard. Bath "confided that he was an original investor in George Bush Jr.'s oil exploration company," according to The Outlaw Bank.

Bath found investors for Arbusto and "made his fortune" by investing the money of two BCCI-connected Saudi sheiks, Khalid bin Mahfouz and Salem bin Laden. Mahfouz was one of the richest men in the world and a controlling shareholder in BCCI.

Bill White, a former real estate business partner of Bath, said: "He had put up $50,000 to help George, Jr., get started in oil business" at a time when "Bath had no substantial money of his own," according to The Outlaw Bank.

Bath received a 5 percent interest in two Arbusto-related limited partnerships controlled by Bush, although Bush told The Houston Post in 1990 that he had "never done any business" with Bath. However, Bush said Bath was "a lot of fun."

Bath told White that he was in the CIA and that "he had been recruited by George Bush himself in 1976 when Bush was director of the agency . . . he said Bush wanted him involved with the Arabs, and to get into the aviation business."

White contends that the Saudis were using Bath and their huge financial resources to influence U.S. policy during the Reagan and Bush administrations, according to the Houston Chronicle of June 4, 1992. Such representation by Bath would require that he be registered as a foreign agent with the Department of Justice, which he was not.

Shortly after Bush's father was appointed director of the CIA, Salem bin Laden appointed Bath as his business representative in Texas. According to The Houston Chronicle, Salem bin Laden, heir to one of the largest building companies in the Middle East, signed a trust agreement appointing Bath as his Houston representative in 1976.

In 1978 Bath purchased Houston Gulf Airport on behalf of Salem bin Laden. When bin Laden died in 1988, his interest in the airfield passed to bin Mahfouz.

There was also a political aspect to Salem bin Laden's financial activities, which played a role in U.S. operations in the Middle East and Central America during the 1980s,
according to Public Broadcasting's Frontline report.

As head of Binladen Brothers Construction (now the Binladen Group), a company that later helped build U.S. airfields during Operation Desert Storm, bin Laden was close to King Fahd of Saudi Arabia and "a good friend of the U.S. government," a San Antonio attorney, Wayne Fagan, who represented Salem bin Laden from 1982 to 1988, told the San Antonio Express-News.

When the family patriarch, Sheik Mohammed bin Laden, died in 1968, he left an industrial and financial empire and a progeny of 54 sons and daughters, the fruit of a number of wives. In 1972, Salem bin Laden, the oldest son, took over the estate as his father's successor, with the assistance of several brothers.

With over 40,000 employees, the Bin Laden Group is represented in the major cities of Saudi Arabia and the Arab capitals of Beirut, Cairo, Amman, and Dubai. The company builds highways, housing units, factories, hangars, and military bases, some of which are part of the U.S.-Saudi "Peace Shield" agreement.

The story of the Bush involvement with bin Laden and the BCCI scandal involves "trails that branched, crossed one another, or came to unexpected dead ends," according to The Outlaw Bank.

FREAK ACCIDENT

Salem bin Laden came to an "unexpected dead end" in a Texas pasture, 11 years after investing in Arbusto, when the ultralight aircraft he was flying crashed into power lines near San Antonio on Memorial Day, 1988.

On the morning of May 29, 1988, almost immediately after takeoff, Salem bin Laden's aircraft struck and became entangled in power lines 150 feet high before plunging to the ground.

"He was a very experienced pilot. He was a good pilot. We just can't understand why he decided to go right instead of left," recalled airstrip owner and former Marine Earl May field, who cradled bin Laden, bleeding from the ears.

That day, bin Laden took off in a southeasterly direction into the wind. He surprised onlookers by turning west to ward power lines less than a quarter-mile away.

"Nobody could figure out why he tried to fly over the power lines," said Gerry Auerbach, 77, of New Braunfels, a retired pilot.

Bin Laden had more than 15,000 hours of flight experience.

The police report concluded "freak accident."

[hillbilly]

good riddance!

[GroobySteven]

You silly little newbies. AS many as it takes. You dumbies don't know your asses from a hole in the ground. Are you trying to impress the ladies or something? i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

I love this guy!
Your daddy died in WW2 and you fought in Vietnam - hasn't your family learned from the past (or maybe it's Darwinism at work?).
While WW2 was fought because of a need to stop domination and a tip of world power, Iraq is fought purely on money and the need for BUSH to assert himself.
When did "liberal" become a bad word? What is wrong with being "liberal" - is it because it disagrees with your rightwing money making, agenda? When is it wrong to care about people?

You stated you were young and dumb once (!?!) was that when you went to war - and what since then have you learned?
seanchai

[yourdaddy]

I'm jacking off. You are too.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

yes we see

since u are so out of touch with reality- best go dream of a fantasy

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

You silly little newbies. AS many as it takes. You dumbies don't know your asses from a hole in the ground. Are you trying to impress the ladies or something? i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

I served in Iraq back in 92-3, and offered to go back but one tour of duty was respected......................
I usually don't disrespect fellow vets, especially since my father is an Army vet but let's not confuse poor leadership with the guys that are simply trying to serve their country......................

[yourdaddy]

No seance(dreamstate), I was young and dumb till 1996. My great uncle, Sen. Duncan Fletcher, dem., Florida, introduced the "Save the Everglades Act" into the U.S. Senate, in 1936. My grandfather, hired the first woman to pass the Florida Bar exam, into his law firm in Gainesville, Fl. I was a naive democrat (young and dumb), when i thought they still cared about America. I am still a Union member (20 years), My country comes before my politics. Ask sharpton, jackson, schumer, et al, which comes first in their lives.

[zerrrr]

Probably in the same place we are now. You may not realize this but Bin Laden's anger with the United States began when the Saudi's asked the United States to remove Iraq from Kuwait. The invasion of Kuwait was over Iraqi claims that the Kuwaitis were using horizontal drilling to remove oil from oil fields that were on the Kuwait/Iraq border (true.) Bin Laden wanted to remove Iraq using his militia force from Afganistan but the Saudi’s overruled him. He has harbored a grudge against this country ever since. But then again we did train and arm him and his forces when they were fighting the Soviets in Afganistan.

Oddly enough, he was never a religious zealot. His youth was spent partying in Beirut where a lot of young, rich Middle Eastern kids would go on the weekends. His religious fervor came about when his father gave him the job of renovating one of Saudi Arabia’s most important mosques. During the renovation his interest in the Muslim religion grew and he became the zealot he is today.

The whole thing is a huge convoluted mess because we supported Saddam in his war against Iran and now fear Iran gaining to much influence in Iraq but they are fearful of having the United States on both sides of their country. That is why they are so fervently working on their nuclear program.

[chefmike]

he probably served in the military like monkey boy did...AWOL from the national guard...schmuck...


http://usera.imagecave.com/chefmike/bush.gif

[yourdaddy]

Hey pearl diver (oops, 1/4 pounder flipper chef mike), wanna compare my honorable discharge to your G.E.D, if you have one? 2years supporting out spy satellites at P.A.F.B, Cocoa Beach Florida, 1968-1969. 2 years, Lockheed Satellite Space Center, Sunnyvale, Ca., 1970, 1971. How long at Mickie-D's. fool?

[chefmike]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! looks like I struck a nerve...REMF...that's rear echelon motherfucker for those of you that haven't heard the expression....a glorified supply clerk...xcuse me...I got a burger to flip...putz...

[long6inch]

i have kept my mouth closed as long as possible. the reason i come to this site. is because of beautiful ladies with a beautiful cock.
even the beatles kept their mouth shut during the vietnam war. as far as the war is concerned. our soldiers are defending freedom. their are there because of there choice. they are hero's. read the facts bush did not lie. number one, it is a proven fact that sadam had wmds. number two, after 17 resolutions giving the ok. number three, george w bush was not the only one to ok sending the troops to war. congress also went along with him. (did you know teddy-the river killer and hillry are members of congress) so if any blame is to be. blame everyone in washington. number four, where would you like to fight the terrorist, baghdad or davenport, iowa. i choose baghdad. number five, remember 9-11-01, when the towers were first hit. we thought maybe 10,000 americans, friends, brothers, sisters, sons, daughers, husbands and wives would die. number six, putting blame on the president is bull shit. it is a political system. both democrats and republicans. democrats got us into vietnam and republicans got us out. republicans got us into the depression and democrats got us out. now if i were president. i would drop the big one and i don't mean that big one on iraq. while i am at it i would send one over california.
please give up the politics and lets talk about fucking beautiful ladies.......by the way i know where the wmd's are. the terrorist are spreading them out over the course of the war......

[yourdaddy]

God Chef, you're so manly, I've never sucked a guys cock, but i'd cross that street for you. You're so worldly and knowledgable. All those big initials. What a turn-on. If your cock is as big as your mouth, It must be really immense. Can I just kinda hang behind you as you stroll, and pick up your dregs?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

(did you know teddy-the river killer and hillry are members of congress)

funny I thought they were both Senators.............................
smh

[Vicki Richter]

I respect the guy for speaking up against the popular views of this board with his opinions. As usual, hateful comments are used as rebuttle. I've honestly yet to see the die-hard liberals not use insults in their rhetoric.
I shouldn't even step in here, but you're all beating up on one guy.

I still look at the Germans and Japanese and say that the bond we now have was worth the loss of life in WW2. I think most people would agree. However, pacifists would have kept us out of WW2... It wasn't our war. Had Japan not bombed us, perhaps we wouldn't have gotten involved soon enough and England would be speaking German. Similarly, although Korea was regarded a failure by many, but having a stablizing presence in South Korea has had it's advantages.

I think 20 years from now, we'll look back on Iraq as the right thing to do. Soldiers don't sign up to die, they sign up to kill, or being part of a freedom killing machine which is our military. While that concept probably doesn't cross all their minds in as much as free education and an instant $20k job with benefits right out of H/S (without a real interview or experience), in some cases, the guys are signing up because they want part of the action. Just like a police officer, they are signing up for a high risk position with a higher than average risk of death.

Any way you slice it, if we lived in one world, and somewhere in the world a dictator was killing his people, terrorizing them, and prohibiting them from their human rights, we should get involved if we can help. People still look at it as us and them... Would the liberal here be happy if we had attacked Saudi instead of Iraq? Would that be justified based upon the Saudi contingent coming out of 911?

Yes people are suffering today, but how can anyone say that a life without democracy is better than one with? The people living there today may not universally say so because of the instability, but give it 10 or 20 years and then tell me otherwise. Do we really want a mega-billionaire terrorist (Saddam was a terrorist) leading an oil rich country and having the capability of funding potentially dangerous activities?

Also is taking over a country (or two) a deterent for other terrorists who love their country of origin?

ps - It still feels that almost everything I am hearing from some of you came out of Farenheit 911. Michael Moore is at least as big of a crackpot as Bush and probably 10X worse. Everyone knows this.

I'd love one person to debate me paragraph by paragraph and logically refute my thoughts here, but that isn't how you guys operate typically.

V

[yourdaddy]

(did you know teddy-the river killer and hillry are members of congress)

funny I thought they were both Senators.............................
smh
Another NY liberal dummy. I thought you were smarter than this. Congress is the Senate AND the House of Representatives. Sharpton for Pres.

[chefmike]

i have kept my mouth closed as long as possible. the reason i come to this site. is because of beautiful ladies with a beautiful cock.
even the beatles kept their mouth shut during the vietnam war. as far as the war is concerned. our soldiers are defending freedom. their are there because of there choice. they are hero's. read the facts bush did not lie. number one, it is a proven fact that sadam had wmds. number two, after 17 resolutions giving the ok. number three, george w bush was not the only one to ok sending the troops to war. congress also went along with him. (did you know teddy-the river killer and hillry are members of congress) so if any blame is to be. blame everyone in washington. number four, where would you like to fight the terrorist, baghdad or davenport, iowa. i choose baghdad. number five, remember 9-11-01, when the towers were first hit. we thought maybe 10,000 americans, friends, brothers, sisters, sons, daughers, husbands and wives would die. number six, putting blame on the president is bull shit. it is a political system. both democrats and republicans. democrats got us into vietnam and republicans got us out. republicans got us into the depression and democrats got us out. now if i were president. i would drop the big one and i don't mean that big one on iraq. while i am at it i would send one over california.
please give up the politics and lets talk about fucking beautiful ladies.......by the way i know where the wmd's are. the terrorist are spreading them out over the course of the war......

he's with stupid...the only terrorists we're fighting in baghdad are the ones we created...

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I still look at the Germans and Japanese and say that the bond we now have was worth the loss of life in WW2.

no offense Vicki but when I was in Berlin recently their were teens walking around with the American Flag upside down on a pole, and Japanese companies are pulling out of America and fleeing back to the motherland or Canada i.e. Toyota

I doubt we have any real bonds with the current administration, especially in the next few years when we step away from foreign oil, another interesting idea thrown out by Bush Jr. a few months ago..............

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Another NY liberal dummy. I thought you were smarter than this. Congress is the Senate AND the House of Representatives. Sharpton for Pres.

forgive me for not being up to par on all of my politics oldman but let's go back in the history of this thread................ you're a Vietnam veteran who is sitting in a room full of people who are basically saying end this crap of a war and save lives, bring the soldiers home; something people did back when gung-ho good ole country boys such as yourself were in Vietnam for a war which is in it's essence the same as this one........................mindless and a waste of tax dollars

[chefmike]

Hey pearl diver (oops, 1/4 pounder flipper chef mike), wanna compare my honorable discharge to your G.E.D, if you have one? 2years supporting out spy satellites at P.A.F.B, Cocoa Beach Florida, 1968-1969. 2 years, Lockheed Satellite Space Center, Sunnyvale, Ca., 1970, 1971. How long at Mickie-D's. fool?

LMAO!...I did two westpac tours and I never realized florida classified as "serving in nam"...lol...how enlightening...

[long6inch]

your are right the only one we are fighting is the one's we created. both democrats and republicans. now to hell with your point. this is today. the terrorist want to kill me and my family. not the one's created in the past. it is no longer an issue weather ford, carter, regan, bush, clinton or bush funded them. when the us helped the terrorist. then it was in our best interest. please, this is a board about fucking not politics

[yourdaddy]

Looks like it's me and Vicki in the foxhole together. At least she's got some serious balls. God, please put me in a foxhole with Vicki. If you do, I'll admit Chef Mike is the smartest asshole on this thread.

[NYCe]

I respect the guy for speaking up against the popular views of this board with his opinions. As usual, hateful comments are used as rebuttle. I've honestly yet to see the die-hard liberals not use insults in their rhetoric.
I shouldn't even step in here, but you're all beating up on one guy.


As an impartial observer I'd just like to point out that he was the first to start using hateful comments against other posters.

*returns to lurking*

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

long6 brings up a good point.................
ok which one of you dames is gonna dress up as a terrorist (or for the oldman a Vietkong) and let us have our way with them....???

[chefmike]

Looks like it's me and Vicki in the foxhole together. At least she's got some serious balls. God, please put me in a foxhole with Vicki. If you do, I'll admit Chef Mike is the smartest asshole on this thread.

so how close is florida to nam? they got foxholes in florida? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO...I bet you're one of those state militia guys waiting to assist our "homeland security"...

[willib]

VICKI WHY DON'T U JOIN THE ARMY AND FIGHT. GET YOUR ASS IN THE MUD AND BLOOD AND SEE HOW PATROTIC U ARE WHEN YOUR YEAR OR MORE TOUR IS OVER. IF U LIVE. BUSH CAN TALK THE TALK BUT HE DID NOT WALK THE WALK IN THE NAM. "AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY"

[yourdaddy]

Looks like it's me and Vicki in the foxhole together. At least she's got some serious balls. God, please put me in a foxhole with Vicki. If you do, I'll admit Chef Mike is the smartest asshole on this thread.

so how close is florida to nam? they got foxholes in florida? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO...I bet you're one of those state militia guys waiting to assist our "homeland security"...So Mike, "Nuff of this shit, OK? We're boring the good people. I don't know how to upload a vid clip to this site, so if you can send me your e-mail address, i'll send it to you. Maybe you could send it to the forum. It's titled "Why we went to Nam". I guarantee you will love this "little" ornamental. Your Daddy. If you don't do this, then it proves your nothing but a pussy. Your Daddy

[GroobySteven]

Long6 is frankly, terrifying. That people actually think the same way as he does, just bewilders me. It's his thinking that puts terrorism and the war Iraq in the same camp and gives the politicians the ability to do this.
There was a war on terror (ongoing) which was a retaliation for 9/11 and against a group of people who had threatened and attacked the US.
The Iraq war in which over 2000 US soldiers and poor fucks who joined the national guard have been killed. There were no WMD's, there were no genuine threats against US but there was a hell of a lot of oil.
Vicki how many countries have you visited outside the US? Any allies the US and the goodwill they used to have is dropping daily.
BTW The Beatles staying out of the Vietnam war? John Lennon was in the Beatles, George Harrison was singing his hippy-trippy peace songs and Ringo was floating on a rooftop...somewhere.

Frankly, those of you who STILL support the war in Iraq against all the overwhelming evidence of lies, deceit and misleading are no less of zealots than those who advocate terrorism against the US. You're blinded by the same faith that those suicide bombers are and as employees of the USA, are happily getting used to make money for your empoyers bosses.
seanchai


seanchai

[willib]

VICKI HOW, WHEN, AND WHY DID THE WEST FIRST GET INVOLVED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IN THE 20TH CENTURY? TELL ME THIS AND WE CAN DEBATE.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

i dont think this has anything to do with being liberal and conservative-

the majority of americans are dissatisfied about the war-that is a fact.

your daddy started offending people and he got it right back at him.

i wonder why "conservatives" say- oh saddam was A bad dictator and yeah he ruled in terror- but hello- what about cuba, north korea, ...i could continue the list.

there are many dictators around the world with horrible human righta records- but why did the bush administration not take action agaisnt them as well?

the fact is that there is NO tie between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein -
Iraq has now becoming a breeding ground for terrorist- as admitted by high ranking army officials recently.

by the way- i don't think anyone on here mentioned michael moore- did they?

[GroobySteven]

Vicki's probably been drinking again, it's after 11pm where she is...
seanchai

[Vicki Richter]

I still look at the Germans and Japanese and say that the bond we now have was worth the loss of life in WW2.

no offense Vicki but when I was in Berlin recently their were teens walking around with the American Flag upside down on a pole, and Japanese companies are pulling out of America and fleeing back to the motherland or Canada i.e. Toyota

I doubt we have any real bonds with the current administration, especially in the next few years when we step away from foreign oil, another interesting idea thrown out by Bush Jr. a few months ago..............

I am sure some of our closest allies have the same stuff... It doesn't shock me at all. The French have spit in our food for years and we haven't recently (intentionally) killed any French in a war.

What those youth are doing is no different that our youth posting goofy pictures of our President or "FUCK BUSH" signs. However, the last I heard, teenagers don't dictate foreign policy.

[chefmike]

Looks like it's me and Vicki in the foxhole together. At least she's got some serious balls. God, please put me in a foxhole with Vicki. If you do, I'll admit Chef Mike is the smartest asshole on this thread.

so how close is florida to nam? they got foxholes in florida? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO...I bet you're one of those state militia guys waiting to assist our "homeland security"...So Mike, "Nuff of this shit, OK? We're boring the good people. I don't know how to upload a vid clip to this site, so if you can send me your e-mail address, i'll send it to you. Maybe you could send it to the forum. It's titled "Why we went to Nam". I guarantee you will love this "little" ornamental. Your Daddy. If you don't do this, then it proves your nothing but a pussy. Your Daddy

WTF??? Are you assuming the rest of on this thread are gonna buy/comply with your retro/history..and this thread wasn't bout nam, it was about Iraq....YOU BROUGHT UP VIETNAM...and MOST people don't classify duty in the US as duty in NAM...you're a vet...I'm a vet...my dad, and his dad, were vets...but your posts show who brought up nam, etc...I get it..you're an okie from Muskogee, red necks, white socks, blue ribbon beer, etc. ...but we're talkin about 2000 lives wasted and a national deficit that your great-grandchildren will be payin off...btw..didn't "slick willie" get us out of king george the I deficit...

[AllanahStarrNYC]

PS.

Throughout all of my travels throughout Europe-
and ALL the people I have met- mostly upper class, 30 plus men in
the UK, Spain, France, Sweden, Denmark, Italy- just to name a few
always ask me what I think about Bush and the war and guess what-
I have yet to find one to agree- or the media or goverment.

The only is T. Blair- and Bush has spat in his face several times regarding global warming and the kyoto protocal

[Felicia Katt]

i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

Ignoring the complete lack of any moral equivalency to those past conflicts and the present disaster in Iraq, World War II ended 60 years ago. The Vietnam conflict concluded over 30 years ago (and if your Father was killed before 1945, your time in Vietman must have been even longer ago than 1973) so the real question is what have YOU done lately?

FK

[willib]

WHY IS IT THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO TALK THAT PATRIOTIC MUMBO JUMBO DON'T WANT TO FIGHT. I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE. I KNOW WAR AND DON'T WANT TO GO BACK. BUT ITS KIND OF A RUSH TO HAVE STEEL WHIZZING OVER YOUR HEAD. ANYWAY WHEN U ARE IN A FIREFIGHT PATROTISM IS THE LAST THING ON MY MIND. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR PARTNER HAS HIS M1A1 TANK CRACKED OPEN LIKE AN EGG BY AN IED AND U HAVE PIECES OF HIS BURNED FLESH IN YOUR POCKET, WHILE U HOLD HIM KNOWING THAT HE WILL BLEED OUT AND DIE. WAR IS TOUGH AND IT SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN U HANG VICKI!!!!!!!!!? "AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY"

[chefmike]

i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

Ignoring the complete lack of any moral equivalency to those past conflicts and the present disaster in Iraq, World War II ended 60 years ago. The Vietnam conflict concluded over 30 years ago (and if your Father was killed before 1945, your time in Vietman must have been even longer ago than 1973) so the real question is what have YOU done lately?

FK

LMFAO...Felicia...I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say what whosedaddy has been doin lately is listening to rush the junkie, sean the schmuck, et al...in other words drinking that kool aid, but its not jonestown this time...ITS BUSHTOWN...drink the koolaid, then lay down and die...your leader has commanded you to...

[Vicki Richter]

VICKI WHY DON'T U JOIN THE ARMY AND FIGHT. GET YOUR ASS IN THE MUD AND BLOOD AND SEE HOW PATROTIC U ARE WHEN YOUR YEAR OR MORE TOUR IS OVER. IF U LIVE. BUSH CAN TALK THE TALK BUT HE DID NOT WALK THE WALK IN THE NAM. "AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY"

I could list about a hundred reasons why I don't get my ass in "mud and blood" and fight... but obviously you already see the nonsense that is your suggestion. I get what you are trying to say. It's easy to be brave when it's not you. I get you there.

I have a lot of fans in the military. I would say I've had close to 100 emails from guys who serve or have served in Iraq and I've had regular exchanges with some of them to the point where I've actually started worrying when I didn't get a response to a mail for a few days. I've talked to guys on a regular basis when bombs have hit outside their camps, when their friends have died or been hurt, etc. I would never critisize what they do or have done and I've never trivialized it.

My statement was that when people sign up for the military, they are signing up for a high risk job. This can include shooting people and being shot at... bombing people and being bombed. It can mean jumping out of a plane and your chute not opening.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need a military or police. I was very upset we went to war there not only for the loss of human life but for the $100B cost that would have been better spent at home on our own people. However, once committed, I have yet to hear anyone present a good scenario for us just up and leaving that wouldn't cause more damage than good for us or the world.

[Vicki Richter]

there are many dictators around the world with horrible human righta records- but why did the bush administration not take action agaisnt them as well?

by the way- i don't think anyone on here mentioned michael moore- did they?

It would be tactically unfeasible to go to war with every dictator on the planet. I am sure if he had NATO support Bush would love to goto war with almost everyone. He's a bit on the war mongering side.

Yes I read some comments people were making pertaining to Bush being in bed with the Saudi's etc... Oil money is Moore gospel and total unobstantiated rumor as to why we went to war with Iraq.

[jt money]

Oh boy, I haven't had to have this debate since last November so give me a second to bring it all back.......

OK, to answer the initial question, I would say probably another 1000 or so will die before it is all over and yes we all, republican and democrats, liberals and conservatives will mourn their deaths.

The next question is why the fuck are we fighting this war in the first place. Hmm, where to start, how about all the UN resoultions they violated? No, no one cares about that. OK, the real reason.

THE CONNECTION

What do 911 and Iraq have to do with each other? We used to be under the impression that simply isolating a country with UN resolutions and imbargos kept them from being a threat to anyone but with the attacks of 911 we now know that anyone with WMD's who is associated with terrorists (and Sadaam had direct associations with terrorist) is a threat to us. The scenarios of terrorists having WMD's is shown on the news all the time and even if they only have radioactive material a dirty bomb would cause enough chaos to halt a major city for weeks. But Sadaam didn't have any WMD's you say? Maybe, maybe not but today or two years ago is not the point. The 911 commission report is cited all the time for it's conclusion that Iraq had no WMD but the report also concluded that Sadaam was first going to get out from under the UN scrutiny, rebuild his long range missle program to defend his country and then restart his chemical weapons programs. After his chemical weapons (which they had plenty of experience making and would have not taken much time at all) he would resume his quest for nuclear weapons. Any doubt about this can be answered logically as the question was asked by Sadaam's former top nuclear scientist. Do you think that after spending billions and billions of dollars developing nuclear weapons he was just going to give it up? So, not only does Sadaam have a history of fighting with his neighbors which is bad for the US, his association with terrorists makes the likelyhood that he would share the weapons with them very high. These weapons would be used to attack either us or Isreal. Fuck the Isrealis, right! Well what if they were for us? This may seem like speculation or fear mongering but is it really that far fetched? Sadaam has already attacked Iran (who we hate so we helped him for fear he would lose and Iran would control more oil), Kuwait (who we rescued in the first Persian Gulf war) and was moving is troops toward Saudi Arabia before the coalition stepped in to stop him. Face it, Sadaam was a problem that wasn't going to go away no matter how long we waited. Soon or later the US and whoever was willing to risk it were going to be fighting Sadaam again. Now, would you rather it be when his Army is at a disadvantage (now) or later when his coutry, Army and arsenal of weapons was completely rebuilt?

[hondarobot]

I respect the guy for speaking up against the popular views of this board with his opinions. As usual, hateful comments are used as rebuttle. I've honestly yet to see the die-hard liberals not use insults in their rhetoric.
I shouldn't even step in here, but you're all beating up on one guy.

I still look at the Germans and Japanese and say that the bond we now have was worth the loss of life in WW2. I think most people would agree. However, pacifists would have kept us out of WW2... It wasn't our war. Had Japan not bombed us, perhaps we wouldn't have gotten involved soon enough and England would be speaking German. Similarly, although Korea was regarded a failure by many, but having a stablizing presence in South Korea has had it's advantages.

I think 20 years from now, we'll look back on Iraq as the right thing to do. Soldiers don't sign up to die, they sign up to kill, or being part of a freedom killing machine which is our military. While that concept probably doesn't cross all their minds in as much as free education and an instant $20k job with benefits right out of H/S (without a real interview or experience), in some cases, the guys are signing up because they want part of the action. Just like a police officer, they are signing up for a high risk position with a higher than average risk of death.

Any way you slice it, if we lived in one world, and somewhere in the world a dictator was killing his people, terrorizing them, and prohibiting them from their human rights, we should get involved if we can help. People still look at it as us and them... Would the liberal here be happy if we had attacked Saudi instead of Iraq? Would that be justified based upon the Saudi contingent coming out of 911?

Yes people are suffering today, but how can anyone say that a life without democracy is better than one with? The people living there today may not universally say so because of the instability, but give it 10 or 20 years and then tell me otherwise. Do we really want a mega-billionaire terrorist (Saddam was a terrorist) leading an oil rich country and having the capability of funding potentially dangerous activities?

Also is taking over a country (or two) a deterent for other terrorists who love their country of origin?

ps - It still feels that almost everything I am hearing from some of you came out of Farenheit 911. Michael Moore is at least as big of a crackpot as Bush and probably 10X worse. Everyone knows this.

I'd love one person to debate me paragraph by paragraph and logically refute my thoughts here, but that isn't how you guys operate typically.

V

In WW2 we were fighting aggressive fronts against Germany, Italy, and Japan. They wanted to expand their power base to further their political agenda.

Now we are the super power and extending our agenda.

It all comes down to who writes the history books. We're doing the same thing they did.

"1984", it's a good book to read.

[Vicki Richter]

Vicki's probably been drinking again, it's after 11pm where she is...
seanchai

No... It's not even 9pm yet... Hiccup... Do you think I have a problem?

[jt money]

By the way, I love the assertion that the war is for oil. If oil is so unimportant then why are people so pissed that gas is $3 a gallon and their heat will cost them another 50% this winter?

[willib]

SO WHEN WE LEAVE IRAQ, AND VICKI LET'S FACE IT WE WILL, ARE U PREPARED TO BEAR ARMS AND FIGHT TERROR IN THE STREETS OF PHEONIX? SINCE U HAVE A HUNDRED REASONS WHY U DON'T WANT TO FIGHT NOW IN IRAQ? I ASK THIS BECAUSE THAT IS ONE OF GEORGE BUSH'S JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THIS DIRTY NASTY WAR. THAT'S THE ONLY TIME U WILL FIND ME FIGHTING AGAIN, IF THE TERRORIST BRING HAND TO HAND MAN TO MAN COMBAT TO THE U.S., I MAY SOUND HARD BUT I AM JUST YOUR AVERAGE JOE THAT HAVE SAW ACTION IN TWO WARS, PLUS BOSNIA, WAR IS NOT WORTH IT PEOPLE IT IS NOT THE ANSWER. LOOK, VIETNAM IS NOW ONE OF OUR MOST AVID AND ENTERPRISING TRADING PARTNERS. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THIS IN 1969? "AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY"

[Felicia Katt]

Bull shit!!!!! Where were you on 9/11 pendejo? That was what we inherited from Slick willie doing absolutely nothing about terrorism for 8 years.

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/myth/ClintonAndTerrorism.htm

Don't let the facts get in the way when you are trying to make a point. The only person working for the Bush Administration who cared about terrorism before 9-11 was Richard Clark (who was a holdover from the Clinton regime)

One big criticism of Clinton was his acknowleged failure to capture Bin Laden. Guess who still is on the loose 5 years, countless billions and 2000 serviceperson's lives later? Guess who won't acknowlege that fact?
http://slate.msn.com/id/2127616/?nav=ais

Guess who didn't even mention Bin Laden in his last 3 State of the Union addresses?
http://www.progress.org/2005/state2005.htm

FK

[GroobySteven]

By the way, I love the assertion that the war is for oil. If oil is so unimportant then why are people so pissed that gas is $3 a gallon and their heat will cost them another 50% this winter?

Haven't you answered your own question?
The American public want cheaper oil and regardless of costs (as they'll make their markup anyway), the oil companies want control of the oil to continue making their own profits? It's a fairly obvious, assertion.
seanchai

[Vicki Richter]

You know why I love this country? Everyone can speak their mind and not worry about the secret police coming in and taking us away.

I think it is great for anyone to be able to express their OPINION or viewpoint.

Again, 20 years from now, the Iraqi human beings will no doubt be enjoying their freedom gained at our expense. Yes, they are human beings too. When we become one unified, english speaking world and globalization breaks down all the barriers that exist today, who will say that coming to the aid of a country in need was the wrong thing to do? Who will say that those 2000 Americans who died weren't true heros for peace on earth? Someday, not in our lifetime, people will stand aghast that the world allowed attrocities to exist and freedom to be stifled.

Has anyone read Nostradomus? He predicted that after we had done so much for so many others, in our hour of need the world would turn away from the United States. I see that happening now... that suggests the apocolypse is near. Better break out revalations.

[GroobySteven]

Vicki you've lost the plot altogether now.

You really think this is getting done for the good of others?
Blind faith.
Unbelievable.
The curent government does things only for themselves, not for the good of the world.
Typical religious-right thinking.
Nostradamus can be twisted to fit almost any scenario.

[jt money]

By the way, I love the assertion that the war is for oil. If oil is so unimportant then why are people so pissed that gas is $3 a gallon and their heat will cost them another 50% this winter?

Haven't you answered your own question?
The American public want cheaper oil and regardless of costs (as they'll make their markup anyway), the oil companies want control of the oil to continue making their own profits? It's a fairly obvious, assertion.
seanchai

Well if that is the case, we may as well invade Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia and Venezuala. In the meantime, I will buy all the oil stock I can't afford?

Seriously, I don't get what you are saying? We took over Iraq for the oil, so we could keep the prices high? But at the same time Bush is getting hammered over oil prices? The arguments don't seem to make sense?

[Nardo_7]

Ok, paragraph by paragraph (more or less). But first, let me say that I'm a huge fan, and none of this is personal to me from either side of the argument. I was a registered Republican for years. Now, an Independant. I am not a "conspiracy nut" or "wacko liberal". I do, however, see the Karl Rove media blitz as what it is: a calculated tactic to influence people using fear. The attacks of 2001 scared people, and fear is extremely useful in politics. Enough background, here's what I believe to be true (anyone is welcome to fact-check me here)



Any way you slice it, if we lived in one world, and somewhere in the world a dictator was killing his people, terrorizing them, and prohibiting them from their human rights, we should get involved if we can help. People still look at it as us and them... Would the liberal here be happy if we had attacked Saudi instead of Iraq? Would that be justified based upon the Saudi contingent coming out of 911?
The Saudi contingent in the cells is a proven fact. However, we as a country have been quite uninterested in dictatorships that do not contain oil in their territories. I realize Kuntzler ("The Long Emergency") is a "radical" economic theorist, but I believe he put it best in stating that our actual intent was to create a "police station" in the center of the Middle East. Saddam was unpopular even with Muslims, and Bin Laden DID want to handle the Kuwait situation (See the recent PBS documentary series on 9/11). How that motivated him later is unknown, but the Saudi's and Kuwait getting "saved" by the U.S. was unbearable to him as a "loss-of-face" situation. Islamic caliphates should not need Western help to handle their own problems. I have several examples of countries with active dictatorships right now in which we do not make waves. Saudi Arabia is one of them. Public beheadings are quite common. Yes, Michael Moore used it, but it really does happen. Happy to be an American in these situations.


Yes people are suffering today, but how can anyone say that a life without democracy is better than one with? The people living there today may not universally say so because of the instability, but give it 10 or 20 years and then tell me otherwise. Do we really want a mega-billionaire terrorist (Saddam was a terrorist) leading an oil rich country and having the capability of funding potentially dangerous activities?

Well, don't take a poll in the former Soviet Union. The mob has absorbed the power vacuum quite effectively, and, almost exactly 20 years later, are selling drugs and weopons all over the world. People actually MISS that government. The kind of nation-building we did in the former Axis powers was possible because the people wanted those governments out, and wanted a new way of life that was "Western". Islamic countries would prefer to remain Islamic. Rove and crew cannot imagine this, and therefore approach their tactics from the point of view that everyone wants to be a Baptist and work at Walmart. We need a new approach.


Also is taking over a country (or two) a deterent for other terrorists who love their country of origin?

Not sure about this statement, but I will say that they don't see borders, especially those artifically imposed by the British almost a century ago (Iraq!). The driving force (in a "cosmic" sense) for Bin Laden and the Sheikh has been a return to the "Caliphate". This was a time when the "Nation of Islam" (a name that has been reused in other forms) was in it's glory. It stretched from parts of central Asia all the way to Spain. It controlled areas easily comparable in size to the Roman empire. The point for Bin Laden to keep causing terror is like shaking up the roulette wheel, or tilting the pinball machine. When the wheel seems to stop and the ball lands on red, and you wanted black, you keep bumping the table until things come down more your way. These guys thrive on chaos, because they can bring order by force and Islamic law. This was how the Taliban took over a country after the Soviet vacuum (Afghanistan). They may have been horrible, but at least the fighting stopped, and the people could be ridiculously poor without gunfire. Bin Laden not only was not upset by our invading Afganistan, but he INTENDED for us to do so. He beat the Soviet Union by bleeding them dry. That is what he intended to do to us. When the Taliban did not stand, we GAVE him the second opportunity in Iraq. Now, he is using the same tactic used in Somalia (yes, Clinton should NOT have pulled out) to a much greater scale. For each casualty he inflicts, our resolve weakens, and we have to spend more money, and our economy suffers. This is not a statement supporting Bush, as I believe this administration WALKED into this mess. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about Islam knows that a fundamental tenet is not to be ruled by a non-Muslim power. This is what Rove and company have unwittingly become. An insurgency by religious zealots was predicted in many circles, and should have been EXPECTED when we didn't leave. When we did leave, they still would have attacked any new government in order to create chaos, and thereby take over in the vacuum left post-Saddam.
Oh, and the sheer chutzpah of giving contracts to Haliburton amazed me.


ps - It still feels that almost everything I am hearing from some of you came out of Farenheit 911. Michael Moore is at least as big of a crackpot as Bush and probably 10X worse. Everyone knows this.

I'd love one person to debate me paragraph by paragraph and logically refute my thoughts here, but that isn't how you guys operate typically.

V
Well, calling Moore a crackpot is tough to support, but I'll accept that. However, saying "Everyone knows this" is an unsupportable generalization. He's simply crusading for his beliefs. I won't defend it, as I believe that any lies in a "fact-finding" documentary take away the credibility of the whole piece. But, I can't fault someone for putting as much on the line as he has. I know of no other persons who are able to get people thinking, and possibly out of the "herd" mentality as effectively as he does.

I have friends in Iraq now. I just want them to be risking their lives for a truth. Let's drop the "terrorists" and "wmd's" as reasons, 'cause it didn't work. We're nation-building, and I'm not sure we were up to the role because we didn't do enough planning and study before going in.
Thanks for everyone's time. And, Vicki, Kudos for standing up for the one person going against the tide here, even though I also disagree.
That's what a democracy is though, right? Maybe I'm even more of a fan :)

[hondarobot]

Nostradomus kinda dropped the ball with the whole "world ends in 1999".

I'm just saying.

[GroobySteven]

Here's a clue...don't think about Bush the politician (joke!) think about Bush the businessman. He's only got 3 yrs left in office.
The Saudi/Kuwait connection is well documented and it looks like an war in Iran or Venezuela is in the future.
It's about huge businesses making money off the American people.

Ok enough shit - Hawaii Film Festival is on..."Rice Rhapsody" tonight.
seanchai

[willib]

YOUR DADDY, I WAS ON A TANK GUNNERY RANGE IN GERMANY DURING 911 AND CLINTON WAS NOT THE ONE WHO REDUCED THE AMOUNT OF TROOPS IN THE MILITARY AFTER THE 1ST GULF WAR. IT WAS BUSH SR AND THEN SEC DEF CHENNEY, THIS WAS DONE BECAUSE THE BERLIN WALL CAME DOWN AND HE (CHENNEY) WANTED TO SAVE MONEY. I SURVIVED THE DRAWDOWN AND GOT TO STAY IN. ANYWAY, CHENNEY IS THE PRIMARY REASON WHY TROOPS KEEP GOING BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN TO IRAQ. BY THE THE TIME CLINTON CAME TO OFFICE THE MILITARY WAS ALREADY STRUNG OUT. SO HOW COULD U FIGHT A WAR AGAINST TERROR WITHOUT THE MANPOWER? I THINK CLINTON SAW THE FUTURE AND DID NOT WANT TO COMMIT THE U.S. TO THE TYPE OF MESS WE HAVE IN IRAQ TODAY. "AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY"

[AllanahStarrNYC]

I think in the future we might all have to learn some Mandarin as China will likely be the next super power in another 40-50 years..


Just searched this for myself- out of curiosity

The Top Spoken Languages in The World

1 Mandarin Sino-Tibetan Chinese Characters 885 million China, Malaysia, Taiwan
2 Spanish Indo-European Latin 332 million South America, Central America, Spain
3 English Indo-European Latin 322 million USA, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand
4 Arabic Afro-Asiatic Arabic 235 million Middle East, Arabia, North Africa
5 Bengali Indo-European Bengali 189 million Bangladesh, Eastern India

[jt money]

You know why I love this country? Everyone can speak their mind and not worry about the secret police coming in and taking us away.

I think it is great for anyone to be able to express their OPINION or viewpoint.

Again, 20 years from now, the Iraqi human beings will no doubt be enjoying their freedom gained at our expense. Yes, they are human beings too. When we become one unified, english speaking world and globalization breaks down all the barriers that exist today, who will say that coming to the aid of a country in need was the wrong thing to do? Who will say that those 2000 Americans who died weren't true heros for peace on earth? Someday, not in our lifetime, people will stand aghast that the world allowed attrocities to exist and freedom to be stifled.

Has anyone read Nostradomus? He predicted that after we had done so much for so many others, in our hour of need the world would turn away from the United States. I see that happening now... that suggests the apocolypse is near. Better break out revalations.

Vicki, the other part of my argument for the war in Iraq has to do with the people. News people here love to show how many american soldiers have died and Al Jazeera is focusing on the collateral damage in Iraq. Where were all these news people when Sadaam was murdering by the tens or hundreds of thousands? Gassing his own people!! America has the reputation of being the world's police because we are the only ones doing it! That is not related to my point so anyway...our goal is to bring Democracy to Iraq. It may not be perfect and it may not be exactly what we wanted to give them but they now have a chance to craft a government that they see fit for themselves!! This has had repurcussions throughout the middle east already. People in other countries are taking notice of the progress in Iraq and starting to demand it for themselves. Elections will take place in Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other countries are clammoring for it also. I don't believe we will see the full effects of our actions for the next 20 or maybe 50 years but if we aren't willing to help those people then no one will.

[zerrrr]

Nardo_7, I agree with you 100% except for the Russia stuff. I could write pages about what is going on over there. That is even more complex.

[zerrrr]

I think in the future we might all have to learn some Mandarin as China will likely be the next super power in another 40-50 years..


Just searched this for myself- out of curiosity

The Top Spoken Languages in The World

1 Mandarin Sino-Tibetan Chinese Characters 885 million China, Malaysia, Taiwan
2 Spanish Indo-European Latin 332 million South America, Central America, Spain
3 English Indo-European Latin 322 million USA, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand
4 Arabic Afro-Asiatic Arabic 235 million Middle East, Arabia, North Africa
5 Bengali Indo-European Bengali 189 million Bangladesh, Eastern India

Actually, there are 14 different Chinese dialects (sp?) spoken in China. They just rolled them all into one catagory. My girlfriend (gg) is Chinese and I am trying to learn how to read and speak Chinese.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

jt-

do u have any evidence to suggest that the war in iraq is the actual cause of the development of democracy and elections in some countries in the middle east ?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

everyone is worried about China, as long as the United States is the home of software development & creativity no other country will ever rule................. lol, weapons don't run the world anymore, hackers do..........

[AllanahStarrNYC]

dalrling

that focuses on the most spoken languages in the world

if u go to spain- there are several native languages other than spanish
spoken in several regions

does not mean everyone is speaking them

the two main languages in china are mandarin, followed by cantonese
and then of course dialects

[Vicki Richter]

It's funny you say that. I am pro-choice, pro-porn, pro - live and let live. However, I am Christian. My dad insists I am part of the "loony left" as he calls it.

I'm really split about down the middle on issues and think government is generally out for themselves. I like to see the glass as half full though. I don't see the government or church as inherently evil or wrong necessarily.

I am really the most unpolitical person I know. I just felt bad for the guy getting beat up by himself.

When I post, I realize that I am often naive and probably wrong. However, that doesn't make me a bad person.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

cheers to chefmike for having the most continued thread in the least amount of time in a while
also
I can't WAIT til Saturday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHA BOING BOING muhfuckas

[jt money]

jt-

do u have any evidence to suggest that the war in iraq is the actual cause of the development of democracy and elections in some countries in the middle east ?

Yeah but I will have to find it on msn. Basically, people all want a better life but up until this point the theory has been that democracy won't work in the Middle East. Iraq is a test case (though a little more bumpy than I would prefer) and all of the Middle Eastern countries are watching. I am of the opinion that it will work anywhere. The beauty of it is that if you don't like the people running it, you vote them out.

I read your post about the spoken languages. I can see why english is not first based on world population but it is actually a required course in many countries. I am also guessing that the statistics are based on primary language spoken by people, not all languages spoken. Just as an example, my job took me to a French company in Mexico. The French didn't speak Spanish and the Mexicans didn't speak French so they had conference calls in English.

[jt money]

Here's a clue...don't think about Bush the politician (joke!) think about Bush the businessman. He's only got 3 yrs left in office.
The Saudi/Kuwait connection is well documented and it looks like an war in Iran or Venezuela is in the future.
It's about huge businesses making money off the American people.

Ok enough shit - Hawaii Film Festival is on..."Rice Rhapsody" tonight.
seanchai

I get the "Bush the businessman" approach but as all will tell you, Bush does not run the government, his people, like Cheyney and Karl Rove do. If you are right, then none of them are interested in the future elections and poor polls.

It is funny to me that when GW ran the first time, people wanted him to use his oil connections to get lower gas prices so he did. Then people say he is too connected to the Saudis??? MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!

[chefmike]

You know why I love this country? Everyone can speak their mind and not worry about the secret police coming in and taking us away.

I think it is great for anyone to be able to express their OPINION or viewpoint.

Again, 20 years from now, the Iraqi human beings will no doubt be enjoying their freedom gained at our expense. Yes, they are human beings too. When we become one unified, english speaking world and globalization breaks down all the barriers that exist today, who will say that coming to the aid of a country in need was the wrong thing to do? Who will say that those 2000 Americans who died weren't true heros for peace on earth? Someday, not in our lifetime, people will stand aghast that the world allowed attrocities to exist and freedom to be stifled.

Has anyone read Nostradomus? He predicted that after we had done so much for so many others, in our hour of need the world would turn away from the United States. I see that happening now... that suggests the apocolypse is near. Better break out revalations.

Vicki, the other part of my argument for the war in Iraq has to do with the people. News people here love to show how many american soldiers have died and Al Jazeera is focusing on the collateral damage in Iraq. Where were all these news people when Sadaam was murdering by the tens or hundreds of thousands? Gassing his own people!! America has the reputation of being the world's police because we are the only ones doing it! That is not related to my point so anyway...our goal is to bring Democracy to Iraq. It may not be perfect and it may not be exactly what we wanted to give them but they now have a chance to craft a government that they see fit for themselves!! This has had repurcussions throughout the middle east already. People in other countries are taking notice of the progress in Iraq and starting to demand it for themselves. Elections will take place in Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other countries are clammoring for it also. I don't believe we will see the full effects of our actions for the next 20 or maybe 50 years but if we aren't willing to help those people then no one will.

WTF? We have spawned a terrorist theocracy even worse than the Saudi Arabian theocracy than owns the bush criminal dynasty...


neo-conservative kool aid anyone? the world police doctrine? why the fuck are we in Iraq? the same kinda reasons we overthrew Allende in Chile?...Or king george monkey I's friend noriegua, when he no longer served our purposes? hell, why don't we get into the havoc we reaked in el salvador, and their neighbors...

[Vicki Richter]

Nardo... I wanted to hug you when I read that. That was by far the best, most articulate argument I've ever heard from someone in your line of thinking. It caught me by surprise for sure.

I would debate you but you took all the wind out of my sails by being so sweet and cute, but full of conviction in your response. I love that. It's very sexy.

I love debate where people don't hate each other afterwards. It's easy to take politics too seriously, even when you can't do anything about it.

I hate that people are dying. Young people who should have long lives to live. However, I want their parents and loved ones to genuinely believe that they died for a cause worth dying for. It may not be our cause today, but it's a noble cause even if it truly is a byproduct of the truth (which I can't say either way).

[chefmike]

...

[jt money]

You know why I love this country? Everyone can speak their mind and not worry about the secret police coming in and taking us away.

I think it is great for anyone to be able to express their OPINION or viewpoint.

Again, 20 years from now, the Iraqi human beings will no doubt be enjoying their freedom gained at our expense. Yes, they are human beings too. When we become one unified, english speaking world and globalization breaks down all the barriers that exist today, who will say that coming to the aid of a country in need was the wrong thing to do? Who will say that those 2000 Americans who died weren't true heros for peace on earth? Someday, not in our lifetime, people will stand aghast that the world allowed attrocities to exist and freedom to be stifled.

Has anyone read Nostradomus? He predicted that after we had done so much for so many others, in our hour of need the world would turn away from the United States. I see that happening now... that suggests the apocolypse is near. Better break out revalations.

Vicki, the other part of my argument for the war in Iraq has to do with the people. News people here love to show how many american soldiers have died and Al Jazeera is focusing on the collateral damage in Iraq. Where were all these news people when Sadaam was murdering by the tens or hundreds of thousands? Gassing his own people!! America has the reputation of being the world's police because we are the only ones doing it! That is not related to my point so anyway...our goal is to bring Democracy to Iraq. It may not be perfect and it may not be exactly what we wanted to give them but they now have a chance to craft a government that they see fit for themselves!! This has had repurcussions throughout the middle east already. People in other countries are taking notice of the progress in Iraq and starting to demand it for themselves. Elections will take place in Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other countries are clammoring for it also. I don't believe we will see the full effects of our actions for the next 20 or maybe 50 years but if we aren't willing to help those people then no one will.

WTF? We have spawned a terrorist theocracy even worse than the Saudi Arabian theocracy than owns the bush criminal dynasty...


neo-conservative kool aid anyone? the world police doctrine? why the fuck are we in Iraq? the same kinda reasons we overthrew Allende in Chile?...Or king george monkey I's friend noriegua, when he no longer served our purposes? hell, why don't we get into the havoc we reaked in el salvador, and their neighbors...

why the fuck are we in Iraq? Please reread my previous posts if you have a specific question, I have already answered that one.

BTW, this post says nothing about terrorists, what are you talking about?

[jt money]

Allanah,

Mostly comments by Jack Straw but read to the bottom for the good stuff:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4335629.stm

Looks to be a little right wing but you asked for it:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/reveron200510141458.asp

Promoting Democracy all over the world, thanks George!:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_4-2-2005_pg1_6

[AllanahStarrNYC]

im sorry

i did not mean american/uk opinion articles-

i meant evidence- concrete

[jt money]

I'm assuming you are not willing to take my word for it or you are not swayed that all of these events started taking place after we went into Iraq? No, didn't think so..... All right, I'll find something better.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

as much as i would like to believe that the war in iraq is spreading democracy and that it is a justified war- i think the evidence is overwhelming the that is not the case.

maybe we should talk about the country i come from-
and why the us- if it is so interested in democracy and the spread there of-
did nothing to replace the goverment after the fall of the soviet union.

[jt money]

as much as i would like to believe that the war in iraq is spreading democracy and that it is a justified war- i think the evidence is overwhelming the that is not the case.

maybe we should talk about the country i come from-
and why the us- if it is so interested in democracy and the spread there of-
did nothing to replace the goverment after the fall of the soviet union.

What overwhelming evidence do you speak of?

You are asking why the US did nothing to replace the USSR government after it fell apart?

[AllanahStarrNYC]

im speaking of cuba-

what evidence of iraq?

are u serious?

[AllanahStarrNYC]

evidence-

no evidence of wmd's- no evidence of any link between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein EVER found-

so tell me then, what is the justifiable cause to be in Iraq?
democracy?

i could pick a few nations around the world were people are being oppressed

[chefmike]

Allanah...allow me...Cuba... stupid...we embrace dictatorships all over the world...yet we still hold a grudge against Cuba...besides being a beautiful country, it's also a strategic geographic location...

PS...it's good to see Allanah, the future UN rep, re-emerge...brains AND beauty...

[AllanahStarrNYC]

chef u always are so very kind to me-

thoughj i have no aspirations to be a politician- though i am very political

check this out- first transsexual in the world to be elected mayor and as a member oif parliament

www.georginabeyer.com

BTW A former sex industry worker- she was

who says you can't be a success storyand have worked in the sex industry?

[jt money]

evidence-

no evidence of wmd's- no evidence of any link between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein EVER found-

so tell me then, what is the justifiable cause to be in Iraq?
democracy?

i could pick a few nations around the world were people are being oppressed

You and chefMike are asking the same questions i have already answered in previous, lengthy posts. Yes, democracy and yes, the threat he posed to us and his neighbors (where we get all our oil, yes that is important to me and you, not just those who own oil stock.) I never mentioned any evidence of WMD's or a link between Saddam and 911.

Yes, there are quite a few nations around the world where people are being oppressed and quiet a few in the middle east. You may not like the opinion articles but you have not disagreed with them either. Pushing democracy in the middle east is good for them and us. North Korea and Iran are problem spots and we are dealing with them also.

As far as Cuba (oh yeah, that is where you are from, I did read that, sorry :oops: ), I have no idea. I'm not old enough to understand what the deal there is but I can tell you that they are no threat to us so they will be dealt with much later.

[jt money]

Allanah...allow me...Cuba... stupid...we embrace dictatorships all over the world...yet we still hold a grudge against Cuba...besides being a beautiful country, it's also a strategic geographic location...

PS...it's good to see Allanah, the future UN rep, re-emerge...brains AND beauty...

Would you rather we not work with Pakistan, a dictatorship, in our war on terror (a key allie) or use their help to try and stop the nuclear black market? The world is not black and white. While we would prefer the world to be democratic, it is not but it is a world we have to live in and deal with anyway. People complain about the cruelty of the Saudis and Egypt governments and now the US is doing something about it. We can't change all the countries at once and we can't invade all the trouble spots of the world either but slowly we are making a difference. Like Vicki said, it will be 20 years till this all plays out.

As far as Cuba being a "strategic geographic location...", strategic to what?

[ddubose31]

Bull shit!!!!! Where were you on 9/11 pendejo? That was what we inherited from Slick willie doing absolutely nothing about terrorism for 8 years. I am in the army now and has been for 15 years. Quit referring to 9-11 about this war because it had nothing to do with it, because if it did we should be in our good friends the saudis ass. That's where all those guys who hit us on 9-11 were from, quit trying to protect this sorry ass CIC that we have leading us today.

[jt money]

Bull shit!!!!! Where were you on 9/11 pendejo? That was what we inherited from Slick willie doing absolutely nothing about terrorism for 8 years. I am in the army now and has been for 15 years. Quit referring to 9-11 about this war because it had nothing to do with it, because if it did we should be in our good friends the saudis ass. That's where all those guys who hit us on 9-11 were from, quit trying to protect this sorry ass CIC that we have leading us today.

Actually, I think he was talking about Clinton's track record of making our armed forces look like a bunch of pussies to the point that Bin Laden felt that he could take shots at us without repercussions. The Taliban felt the same way at the start of the ass kicking we put on them. They felt that if you hit the Americans hard, they will leave you alone. That attitude was brought on by Clinton's policy (or lack therefo) on terrorists.

[Hugh Jarrod]

Can't believe I'm jumping into this one. Bill Clinton didn't make us weak to terrorism, niether did Bush. Niether has done anything about it either. Bush's invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, or his humanitary outlook. I wasn't for this war in the 1st place however the Iraq government is gone and we need to stay the course and help establish democracy. America does support dictators, hell we sold Hussein all his weapons and Bush Sr. (Head of the CIA in the 70's) helped Saddam gain power. We support Saudi Arabia, the same people who fund terrorists it's just fact. Bush is a terrible president, Jesus wasn't black or white, and grits ain't groceries.

[MacShreach]

North Korea and Iran are problem spots and we are dealing with them also. <snip>

As far as Cuba <snip> , I have no idea. I'm not old enough to understand what the deal there is but I can tell you that they are no threat to us so they will be dealt with much later.

Interesting language.

[Quinn]

Can't believe I'm jumping into this one. Bill Clinton didn't make us weak to terrorism, niether did Bush. Niether has done anything about it either. Bush's invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, or his humanitary outlook. I wasn't for this war in the 1st place however the Iraq government is gone and we need to stay the course and help establish democracy. America does support dictators, hell we sold Hussein all his weapons and Bush Sr. (Head of the CIA in the 70's) helped Saddam gain power. We support Saudi Arabia, the same people who fund terrorists it's just fact. Bush is a terrible president, Jesus wasn't black or white, and grits ain't groceries.

A great post to be sure, but I want to correct one often-stated mistake. The U.S., did not sell Saddam Hussein his weapons. The regular army was always equipped with inferior Chinese or domestically manufactured versions of older Russian weapons (Chinese Type-59 tanks, copies of Russian BMP-1s, etc.). The Republican Guard, Saddam’s former 150,000 man elite force, was equipped with more modern Russian equipment - the most notable of which included Russian T-72 tanks reconfigured to "Lion of Babylon" specifications (better that the standard Russian T-72).

Saddam’s purchase of Western military equipment was limited to a very small amount of French equipment, the most notable of which included French Super Etendard fighters. There was an attempt to purchase some Italian frigates (I think there were supposed to be 5 of them), but that fell through. What the U.S. did do was pressure Gulf Cooperation Council countries (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, etc.) to loan Hussein the billions of dollars (I believe it eventually amounted to somewhere between 70 and 80 billion dollars by the end of the Iran-Iraq War) he needed to buy all of this Russian and Chinese equipment - the only equipment he could afford on such a large scale. We also supplied him with extensive intelligence data, the most important of which inluded satellite photographs of Iranian military deployments during the Iran-Iraq War. Satellite photography/imagery of battlefield deployments was a capability Iran never had access to during the war (domestically or from foreign sources) and proved critical at the end of the war. It gave Iraq the critical edge it needed to reverse Iranian gains on the Fao Peninsula – which ended the war.

The fact is that neither the U.S. nor the Gulf States ever liked Saddam Hussein. It was more about their being scared shitless of angry Persian fundamentalists exporting their revolution to other regional states, which suddenly made Sadddam look better than the alternative.

-Quinn

Note: my post covers conventional weapons only.

[hondarobot]

Those fact and figures are all well and good, Quinn, but you are overlooking the most important element of Saddam's power, which was indeed exported from the U.S.

It was the mustache of a closeted gay cop from Chicago. The Iraqi people have long yearned to be ruled over by the iron fist of a closeted gay cop. . .from Chicago. It's true, I read it in Mad magazine.



8)

p.s. no new Lost episode tonight. sigh.

[Quinn]

That's a good one, Honda. Your analogy brings to mind another whose visage Saddam may have derived his power from: Snidley Whiplash.

-Quinn

[AllanahStarrNYC]

"they are no threat to us , so they will be dealt with much later"

very interesting language indeed

[jt money]

"they are no threat to us , so they will be dealt with much later"

very interesting language indeed

Do you disagree? Or maybe we should invade Cuba now and free the people?

I can see the rants already: Cuba is no threat to us! Feidel Castro had nothing to do with 911! They don't even have WMD's! Bush just wants all that sugar for himself! Fuck Bush, he's an idiot! The UN doesn't agree! Who else is sending troops for this war, see it's wrong!

I am sure you realize that the people of Cuba would be better off without Castro but why are they desserving of freedom and the people of Iraq are not? The great and unfortunate thing about us as americans is that we have been free so long that none of us born here realize what it is like to be without freedom. Ask the people of the former Soviet republics that are now working their way toward democracy if they are glad for it or if they support the war. I gaurentee they do. Other countries citizens in Europe like France and Germany don't support the war for the same reasons. Something we take for granted everyday (and no, I don't want to get into a discussion of the Patriot Act or people being detained in Guantanamo Bay) freedom is a precious luxury in this world. I am just suprised more people don't want it for others!

[subray]

You silly little newbies. AS many as it takes. You dumbies don't know your asses from a hole in the ground. Are you trying to impress the ladies or something? i served 4 years in Viet Nam. Lost my father in WW2. What have you done, LATELY????

Well, not being in the US, I could not have served in Vietnam (funnily enough.. another war the US never needed to have) but.. I have served in:

Northern Ireland 3 tours
Falkland Islands
Iraq-Kuwait war
Belize
Sudan
Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.

Oh, I lost my grandfather in WW2 and an Uncle in Korea. But lately, well not much.

[General_Mayhem]

Long time lurker, first time poster ...

Did You Know??



Of course I didn't know. How could I?



Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?



Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?



Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?



Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?



Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?



Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.



Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helic! opters a nd 4 Bell Jet Rangers?



Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?



Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?



Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?



Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.



Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?



Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?



Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?



Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?



Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?



Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?



OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!



WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!



Instead of reflecting our love for our country and the incredible job our people are doing in Iraq, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades. Instead of hearing reports on the amazing progress being made, all we hear is suggestions that it's time to get out.



The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens. It appears to be working. You'd better question the motives of the American media -- whose side are they on!



The above facts are verifiable on Department of Defense web sites.

[jt money]

Damn you Gereral, I thought this was all about the oil. You mean we are actually doing some good over there?

[NYCe]

Long time lurker, first time poster ...

Did You Know??



Of course I didn't know. How could I?



Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?



Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?



Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?



Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?



Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?



Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.



Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helic! opters a nd 4 Bell Jet Rangers?



Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?



Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?



Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?



Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.



Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?



Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?



Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?



Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?



Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?



Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?



OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!



WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!



Instead of reflecting our love for our country and the incredible job our people are doing in Iraq, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades. Instead of hearing reports on the amazing progress being made, all we hear is suggestions that it's time to get out.



The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens. It appears to be working. You'd better question the motives of the American media -- whose side are they on!



The above facts are verifiable on Department of Defense web sites.

What you just posted is taken from a very popular e-mail forward that's been covered by Snopes.com
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp

Origins: Variations of these items chronicling U.S. accomplishments in rebuilding Iraq have been circulating since mid-2003 and have been forwarded under so many different names (most of them U.S. military personnel serving in Iraq) that it's difficult to determine who the original author was. The earliest known antecedent appears to be a Coalition Provisional Authority briefing given by L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. Presidential Envoy to Iraq (the highest-ranking U.S. civilian official in Iraq) on 9 October 2003. Some of the accomplishments cited in this piece were echoed in an 8 December 2003 Forbes magazine article by Caspar W. Weinberger, who served as Secretary of Defense during the Reagan administration.

There is a valid point underlying the theme of these messages, that the media tends to report (and the public tends to follow) stories having to do with disaster, tragedy and misfortune far more than stories about good deeds and good works. That has always been the nature of news reporting, however; it's not a new development fostered by the "Bush-hating media." (As one editorial writer put it in a commentary on this phenomenon, "Reporters don't report buildings that don't burn.")

These types of items are generally impossible to categorize with a single truth value because they typically contain a mixture of fact, opinion, subjective statements, inaccuracies, and literally true but often misleading claims. An Iraqi citizen whose response to the earlier piece quoted above was published on the Voices in the Wilderness web site chronicled some of the differences he saw between the claims the pieces offered and his viewpoint as an Iraqi.

Last updated: 21 February 2005

[jt money]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/6/28/214849.shtml

Statistics on Progress Made in Iraq
NewsMax Wires
Tuesday, June 29, 2004
A look at progress in Iraq reported by the Bush administration:

- Electricity production has reached 4,100 megawatts, short of the coalition's goal of 6,000 megawatts by June 30. Estimates of Iraq's prewar production have varied wildly - from 300 megawatts to 4,400 megawatts.

- Electricity is now spread evenly across the country. Baghdad, which used to be favored under Saddam Hussein's regime, now gets 8-12 hours of electricity a day compared to 20 hours before the war.
- The overall number of telephones in Iraq, including cell phones, is up nearly 46 percent since before the war. Cellular phone usage has soared with more than 429,300 subscribers nationwide. More than 201,000 subscribers have had their land telephone lines reinstated, but there are still only 784,200 land lines, compared to 833,000 before the war.

- More than 2,200 schools and 240 hospitals have been "rehabilitated," the coalition said - though the amount of work performed has varied.

- As of January 2004, 860 secondary school master trainers, and 31,772 secondary teachers and administrative staff, were trained in programs funded by the U.S. Agency for International Development.

- School supply kits have been distributed to 1.5 million secondary school students, 808,000 primary school students and 81,735 primary school teachers.

- About 8.7 million new math and science textbooks have been distributed. The World Bank has issued a grant for $40 million for new textbooks for 6 million primary and secondary students.

- Twenty Iraqis have received Fulbright grants to study abroad, and six are women.

- More than 77,000 public works jobs have been created through the National Employment Program.

- Sixteen provincial councils have been established, along with 78 district councils, 192 city or sub-district councils, and 392 neighborhood councils.

- Health-care spending in Iraq has increased some 30 times over prewar levels. Between June 2003 and April 2004, more than 3 million children under five were vaccinated against diseases. A U.S. grant to the Iraqi Nursing Association will go toward training more nurses and buying uniforms, bed linens and nurses' kits.

- The new Iraqi dinar has been stable, and its value has risen by 25 percent over last fall, when the conversion was under way.

---

Sources: Coalition Provisional Authority, U.S. Department of Defense, U.S. Agency for International Development.



© 2004 Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

And that was a year and a half ago.....

[jt money]

Oct 7, 2004

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041007-032854-4439r.htm

...the end of the year the hopes to have 1,000 construction projects begun or completed. About 373 are now underway. He said there are some 80,000 Iraqis employed in the construction work on any given day.

According to Taylor, 28 water treatment plants are under construction and five have been completed; 13 sewer projects are under construction, one has been completed; 72 healthcare facilities are under construction and 73 have been completed; 37 electricity distribution substations are under construction or rehabilitation; 3,100 schools have been rehabilitated; and 62 border forts, nine fire stations and nine military bases are under construction

[Hugh Jarrod]

"they are no threat to us , so they will be dealt with much later"

very interesting language indeed

LOL I think he meant they are a later threat? Despite the fact N. Korea has weapons that can reach us.

[Hugh Jarrod]

"they are no threat to us , so they will be dealt with much later"

very interesting language indeed

Do you disagree? Or maybe we should invade Cuba now and free the people?

I can see the rants already: Cuba is no threat to us! Feidel Castro had nothing to do with 911! They don't even have WMD's! Bush just wants all that sugar for himself! Fuck Bush, he's an idiot! The UN doesn't agree! Who else is sending troops for this war, see it's wrong!

Funny because Cuba is no threat to us. Bush doesn't want that sugar money because he can get that from Hawaii. Baseball players are a nother thing though. Thing is the reason the people of Cuba haven't been liberated by the humanitarian we know as Bush is because their country has nothing of value except baseball players, rum, and 50's cars. Though beach front property is nice. Look at Liberia, a country formed by the US (our baby) with a capitol named for a former US president (Monrovia). This is a country that wants our help, yet hey what is there that American Corporations can make money from?

[Edmund]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

[GroobySteven]

No sugar in Hawaii any more buddy!
Look at at almost any product which used to use sugar (especially soda) and you'll see that it's almost all corn syrup, something which is a major factor in obesity (apparantely a lot easier to digest and convert into fat than sugar).
Anybody visiting Asia or Europe try a coke which has been made locally, ie; with sugar and you'll probably be reminded of childhood, it does have a different taste.
By using more corn syrup, they're keeping US farmers employed and not having to buy as much sugar from abroad...the side effects of diabetes don't concern too much as it's keeping the health insurances and pharmacuticals in business. Did someone say conspiracy theorist?
:roll:

seanchai

[GroobySteven]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

I fail to see the relevance?
seanchai

[Hugh Jarrod]

No sugar in Hawaii any more buddy!
Look at at almost any product which used to use sugar (especially soda) and you'll see that it's almost all corn syrup, something which is a major factor in obesity (apparantely a lot easier to digest and convert into fat than sugar).
Anybody visiting Asia or Europe try a coke which has been made locally, ie; with sugar and you'll probably be reminded of childhood, it does have a different taste.
By using more corn syrup, they're keeping US farmers employed and not having to buy as much sugar from abroad...the side effects of diabetes don't concern too much as it's keeping the health insurances and pharmacuticals in business. Did someone say conspiracy theorist?
:roll:

seanchai

True, thanks Nixon. Actually there's a place I go that imports Pepsi and Coke from Mexico. Tastes so much better with sugar cane than corn syrup.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

lol

its' not even worht discussing-

maybe he should enlist- if he is so gun ho about the spread of democracy
the good the war is doing-

like vicki, i have been in touch with many soliders in iraq on the moment.
some through emails, phone calls, some have visited me here while on leave in nyc.

i can tell you what i hear from them is pretty much the same things-
the conditions are horrible and much worse than u can imagine

when we first went to war- i was not against it. i was more in the middle.
i believed the faulty intelligence and the lies the goverment sold us. it is quite clear there was no clear exit strategy or plan once the war continued.
it's all been a big mess- since i have been anit war.

back to comment on castro. i think you should do some research on dictators and human rights records of certain nations. my father spent 5 years in a cuban prison in the 70's for selling meat on the black market to try to feed his family. anything as minor as that- is considered an attempt agaisnt the revolution. castro has murdered people, kept people in jail, made people dissapear.... i was born in a communist socialist regime, and i remember waiting in line for rations of food with my mom. i never take freedon for granted because i was lucky to be able to come to this country.

so i know what freedom is- trust me on that one. but again, there is nothing economically viable for the us in cuba - hence no overthrow of the goverment.

[Hugh Jarrod]

there is nothing economically viable for the us in cuba - hence no overthrow of the goverment.

Exactly my point. Like Liberia, North Korea, and countless other countries.

[chefmike]

as an aside, it is amazing how Cuba, the bay of pigs fiasco, the mafia's operations there pre-communism, and the CIA all come together in the majority of the JFK assasination conspiracy theories....

[jt money]

"they are no threat to us , so they will be dealt with much later"

very interesting language indeed

LOL I think he meant they are a later threat? Despite the fact N. Korea has weapons that can reach us.

We were talking about Cuba, not North Korea.

[chefmike]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

And the estimated 100,000 Iraqui's we've killed? Half of them civilians....

[Nardo_7]

Nardo... I wanted to hug you when I read that. That was by far the best, most articulate argument I've ever heard from someone in your line of thinking. It caught me by surprise for sure.

I would debate you but you took all the wind out of my sails by being so sweet and cute, but full of conviction in your response. I love that. It's very sexy.

I love debate where people don't hate each other afterwards. It's easy to take politics too seriously, even when you can't do anything about it.

I hate that people are dying. Young people who should have long lives to live. However, I want their parents and loved ones to genuinely believe that they died for a cause worth dying for. It may not be our cause today, but it's a noble cause even if it truly is a byproduct of the truth (which I can't say either way).

Thanks for such a kind response. I hate quoting this many pages past your reply, but I would feel totally like a jerk in not saying thanks.

I cannot believe how many posts hit while I went to work today. This topic is just as volatile as it was three years ago.

Forgive me if I go watch some more of your videos now that I'm totally star-struck... :wink:

[jt money]

lol

maybe he should enlist- if he is so gun ho about the spread of democracy
the good the war is doing-.

I am for the war so I have to inlist? What does that have to do with debating the merits of the war? That is typically what people say when there arguments have been exhausted.



like vicki, i have been in touch with many soliders in iraq on the moment.
some through emails, phone calls, some have visited me here while on leave in nyc.

i can tell you what i hear from them is pretty much the same things-
the conditions are horrible and much worse than u can imagine


...as war always is...



when we first went to war- i was not against it. i was more in the middle.
i believed the faulty intelligence and the lies the goverment sold us. it is quite clear there was no clear exit strategy or plan once the war continued.
it's all been a big mess- since i have been anit war.

None will argue that things are going smoothly but I think setting up a government of the people and training their army to defend their country has been the plan all along. Sounds like an exit strategy to me...



back to comment on castro. i think you should do some research on dictators and human rights records of certain nations. my father spent 5 years in a cuban prison in the 70's for selling meat on the black market to try to feed his family. anything as minor as that- is considered an attempt agaisnt the revolution. castro has murdered people, kept people in jail, made people dissapear.... i was born in a communist socialist regime, and i remember waiting in line for rations of food with my mom. i never take freedon for granted because i was lucky to be able to come to this country.

so i know what freedom is- trust me on that one. but again, there is nothing economically viable for the us in cuba - hence no overthrow of the goverment.

So you would like freedom for the people of Cuba? Me too. You think Castro is a nutcase? Me too. Are they better than Iraqis? Of course not! So they are both deserving of freedom and this war has given it to the Iraqis. But you don't support it?

[jt money]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

And the estimated 100,000 Iraqui's we've killed? Half of them civilians....

Where did you get 100,000 from?

[AllanahStarrNYC]

i will save you the trouble of posting a response, unless you fel the need to, and will answer your question as this.

YES

I do desire for freedom for all people around the world. I also desire for the end of poverty, hunger, genocide, diseases, etc.

BUT

I do not support the freedom of the Iraqui freedom at the expense of 2,000 american lives and the billions of dollars wasted on a futile war- when

poverty is alive in well america
the health care system is in the US is simply embarassing
and there are so many, many, many other good uses that money spent on the war could be spent on.

the united states is very much interested in the promotion of democracy, but it does take care of it's own citezens enough

[jt money]

You support the freedom but the war is futile. OK? 2,000 dead soldiers is a terrible thing but freedom has never been free! It costs money and is costs lives. I wish there was an easier way but there isn't.

"the united states is very much interested in the promotion of democracy, but it does take care of it's own citezens enough
"

When people get past thinking the government will take care of them we will all be better off.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

so the goverment should not take care of people if they hit hard times?

and healthcare should not be provided for everyone?

yeah freedom comes at a price- obviously you are not one of the dead ones, or a family member of a dead soldier since you make that comment so easily without hesitating

[chefmike]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

And the estimated 100,000 Iraqui's we've killed? Half of them civilians....

Where did you get 100,000 from?

http://www.commomdreams.org/headlines04/1028-08.htm

link doesn't show up right when I click it from this post, it's a reuter's article, and there are many more if you google em

[chefmike]

"

When people get past thinking the government will take care of them we will all be better off.

and FDR was a socialist, right?

http://usera.imagecave.com/chefmike/bush.gif

[chefmike]

and we haven't talked about the wounded and maimed, young and old...

[jt money]

so the goverment should not take care of people if they hit hard times?

They do, it's called unemployment. It ain't much but you are not supposed to live on it!



and healthcare should not be provided for everyone?

Not by the government. People bitch enough about HMO's, imagine if the government ran it! And you think the war costs money, healthcare would be ridiculous, ask Canada.



yeah freedom comes at a price- obviously you are not one of the dead ones, or a family member of a dead soldier since you make that comment so easily without hesitating

Well that is the answer. People die in all wars and we all mourn them. Some base their arguments on supporting the troops but we all support them, whether we think they should be there or not.

My point to you is simply this: You are for freedom for all and we are fighting a war that is working in spreading democracy throughout the middle east. That doesn't count for anything?

[jt money]

"

When people get past thinking the government will take care of them we will all be better off.

and FDR was a socialist, right?

http://usera.imagecave.com/chefmike/bush.gif

If you are waiting for the government to make your life better you had better get yourself a Snickers cause you ain't goin anywhere for a while!

[chefmike]

so the goverment should not take care of people if they hit hard times?

They do, it's called unemployment. It ain't much but you are not supposed to live on it!



and healthcare should not be provided for everyone?

Not by the government. People bitch enough about HMO's, imagine if the government ran it! And you think the war costs money, healthcare would be ridiculous, ask Canada.



yeah freedom comes at a price- obviously you are not one of the dead ones, or a family member of a dead soldier since you make that comment so easily without hesitating

Well that is the answer. People die in all wars and we all mourn them. Some base their arguments on supporting the troops but we all support them, whether we think they should be there or not.

My point to you is simply this: You are for freedom for all and we are fighting a war that is working in spreading democracy throughout the middle east. That doesn't count for anything?


there is a difference between democracy and theocracy...and many around the world feel that the only thing that monkeyboy's (that saddam tried to kill my daddy) war has spread is terrorism...

[jt money]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

And the estimated 100,000 Iraqui's we've killed? Half of them civilians....

Where did you get 100,000 from?

http://www.commomdreams.org/headlines04/1028-08.htm

link doesn't show up right when I click it from this post, it's a reuter's article, and there are many more if you google em

There are no official numbers for Iraqi deaths.

So your argument is what? The Iraqi's were better off with Saddam?

[jt money]

so the goverment should not take care of people if they hit hard times?

They do, it's called unemployment. It ain't much but you are not supposed to live on it!



and healthcare should not be provided for everyone?

Not by the government. People bitch enough about HMO's, imagine if the government ran it! And you think the war costs money, healthcare would be ridiculous, ask Canada.



yeah freedom comes at a price- obviously you are not one of the dead ones, or a family member of a dead soldier since you make that comment so easily without hesitating

Well that is the answer. People die in all wars and we all mourn them. Some base their arguments on supporting the troops but we all support them, whether we think they should be there or not.

My point to you is simply this: You are for freedom for all and we are fighting a war that is working in spreading democracy throughout the middle east. That doesn't count for anything?


there is a difference between democracy and theocracy...and many around the world feel that the only thing that monkeyboy's (that saddam tried to kill my daddy) war has spread is terrorism...

...well that is certainly an uninformed point of view. Hmm, who made the comment about heads in the sand...

[chefmike]

my argument is that we had no reason to invade Iraq...period

[jt money]

my argument is that we had no reason to invade Iraq...period

So the people were better off with Saddam?

[jt money]

Oh boy, I haven't had to have this debate since last November so give me a second to bring it all back.......

OK, to answer the initial question, I would say probably another 1000 or so will die before it is all over and yes we all, republican and democrats, liberals and conservatives will mourn their deaths.

The next question is why the fuck are we fighting this war in the first place. Hmm, where to start, how about all the UN resoultions they violated? No, no one cares about that. OK, the real reason.

THE CONNECTION

What do 911 and Iraq have to do with each other? We used to be under the impression that simply isolating a country with UN resolutions and imbargos kept them from being a threat to anyone but with the attacks of 911 we now know that anyone with WMD's who is associated with terrorists (and Sadaam had direct associations with terrorist) is a threat to us. The scenarios of terrorists having WMD's is shown on the news all the time and even if they only have radioactive material a dirty bomb would cause enough chaos to halt a major city for weeks. But Sadaam didn't have any WMD's you say? Maybe, maybe not but today or two years ago is not the point. The 911 commission report is cited all the time for it's conclusion that Iraq had no WMD but the report also concluded that Sadaam was first going to get out from under the UN scrutiny, rebuild his long range missle program to defend his country and then restart his chemical weapons programs. After his chemical weapons (which they had plenty of experience making and would have not taken much time at all) he would resume his quest for nuclear weapons. Any doubt about this can be answered logically as the question was asked by Sadaam's former top nuclear scientist. Do you think that after spending billions and billions of dollars developing nuclear weapons he was just going to give it up? So, not only does Sadaam have a history of fighting with his neighbors which is bad for the US, his association with terrorists makes the likelyhood that he would share the weapons with them very high. These weapons would be used to attack either us or Isreal. Fuck the Isrealis, right! Well what if they were for us? This may seem like speculation or fear mongering but is it really that far fetched? Sadaam has already attacked Iran (who we hate so we helped him for fear he would lose and Iran would control more oil), Kuwait (who we rescued in the first Persian Gulf war) and was moving is troops toward Saudi Arabia before the coalition stepped in to stop him. Face it, Sadaam was a problem that wasn't going to go away no matter how long we waited. Soon or later the US and whoever was willing to risk it were going to be fighting Sadaam again. Now, would you rather it be when his Army is at a disadvantage (now) or later when his coutry, Army and arsenal of weapons was completely rebuilt?

There's your reason

[jt money]

You know why I love this country? Everyone can speak their mind and not worry about the secret police coming in and taking us away.

I think it is great for anyone to be able to express their OPINION or viewpoint.

Again, 20 years from now, the Iraqi human beings will no doubt be enjoying their freedom gained at our expense. Yes, they are human beings too. When we become one unified, english speaking world and globalization breaks down all the barriers that exist today, who will say that coming to the aid of a country in need was the wrong thing to do? Who will say that those 2000 Americans who died weren't true heros for peace on earth? Someday, not in our lifetime, people will stand aghast that the world allowed attrocities to exist and freedom to be stifled.

Has anyone read Nostradomus? He predicted that after we had done so much for so many others, in our hour of need the world would turn away from the United States. I see that happening now... that suggests the apocolypse is near. Better break out revalations.

Vicki, the other part of my argument for the war in Iraq has to do with the people. News people here love to show how many american soldiers have died and Al Jazeera is focusing on the collateral damage in Iraq. Where were all these news people when Sadaam was murdering by the tens or hundreds of thousands? Gassing his own people!! America has the reputation of being the world's police because we are the only ones doing it! That is not related to my point so anyway...our goal is to bring Democracy to Iraq. It may not be perfect and it may not be exactly what we wanted to give them but they now have a chance to craft a government that they see fit for themselves!! This has had repurcussions throughout the middle east already. People in other countries are taking notice of the progress in Iraq and starting to demand it for themselves. Elections will take place in Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other countries are clammoring for it also. I don't believe we will see the full effects of our actions for the next 20 or maybe 50 years but if we aren't willing to help those people then no one will.

Another reason...

[chefmike]

my argument is that we had no reason to invade Iraq...period

So the people were better off with Saddam?

so it's about whose better off under what dictator? let's invade n korea, red china, iran...you better get your neocon ass enlisted because monkey boy needs you!!!

[Hugh Jarrod]

You know, 2,000 is still less than Saddam killed in one day. One morning, actually. Yup. Did 5,000 at once that one time...

And the estimated 100,000 Iraqui's we've killed? Half of them civilians....

I said they (see quote) as in all those countries that are future er uh I mean no threat to the US.

[jt money]

my argument is that we had no reason to invade Iraq...period

So the people were better off with Saddam?

so it's about whose better off under what dictator? let's invade n korea, red china, iran...you better get your neocon ass enlisted because monkey boy needs you!!!

Who is Iraq's dictator now? Let me guess, Bush?

Watch the news sometime and you'll see they are electing their own government and just passed their own constitution.

As for North Korea and Iran, the are being addressed currently.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

it's not about the goverment making your life better-

it's about the goverment taking care of its citezens when it needs too.

i see you agree then all the money spent in iraq has really been valuable
while dosmetic policy suffers


and why do u finish every comment with an exclamation mark-

are you yelling, excited, or gyper active?

[AllanahStarrNYC]

the following is UNACCEPTABLE in the richest country in the world

Statistics on poverty &
food wastage in America

By Samana Siddiqi
Poverty in America? One of the richest countries in the world?

Yes, poverty is a reality in America, just as it is for millions of other human beings on the planet. According to the US Census Bureau, 35.9 million people live below the poverty line in America (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html), including 12.9 million children.

This is despite abundance of food resources. Almost 100 billion pounds of food is wasted in America each year. 700 million hungry human beings in different parts of the world would have gladly accepted this food.

Here are some statistics on the nature of poverty and the waste of food and money in America.

-In 2004, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 14 percent during the year, according to a 27-city study by the United States Conference of Mayors.

-Also in this study, it was noted that on average, 20 percent of requests for emergency food assistance have gone unmet in 2004.

-According to the Bread for the World Institute (http://www.bread.org/hungerbasics/domestic.html) 3.5 percent of U.S. households experience hunger. Some people in these households frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. 9.6 million people, including 3 million children, live in these homes.

-America's Second Harvest (http://www.secondharvest.org/), the nation's largest network of food banks, reports that 23.3 million people turned to the agencies they serve in 2001, an increase of over 2 million since 1997. Forty percent were from working families.

33 million Americans continue to live in households that did not have an adequate supply of food. Nearly one-third of these households contain adults or children who went hungry at some point in 2000.

U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, March 2002, "Household Food Security in the United States, 2000"

[chefmike]

it's not about the goverment making your life better-

it's about the goverment taking care of its citezens when it needs too.

i see you agree then all the money spent in iraq has really been valuable
while dosmetic policy suffers


and why do u finish every comment with an exclamation mark-

are you yelling, excited, or gyper active?

Allanah, it's obvious he get's his news from FOX (we distort, you decide)...coincidentally, it's owned by r murdoch also, owner of NYPost...LMFAO...

[Hugh Jarrod]

I'll put it to you this way jt money, I feel Bush mislead America period. He gave one reason for the invasion after another, anytime someone questioned his motive he changed it to another reason. If he would of simply said "Saddam lost the first Gulf war under complete surrender, and agreed to let weapons inpectors have free movement and total access. Yet in the nine years after that war he has done nothing but give them the run around, kicked them out of the country repeatedly and so on. The world community needs to act." I would've been with him. As it is I think we need to finish the job at hand and help rebuild Iraq. However don't try to sell me on Bush being a saint or even a humanitarian. Yes we liberated Kuwait (the dictatorship, not the people. As he reinstated a dictator not a democratically elected official). Don't give Bush credit for the elections in Saudi Arabia, and don't look to those elections as democracy as they were a joke at best. Don't tell me one country at a time when you, I, and everybody else knows if a country has no viable comodity for corporate there is no hope that this administration (or any other Dem or Rep) will help. As I stated I am for finishing what we started if we don't then you get another Taliban (as when we help Afghanistan expel the Soviets, then left ourselves). Don't tell me Bush has done a damned thing to stop terrorism and that Clinton is to blame for it's growth. It was America's over all atittude that we were an untouchable super power. Saudi Arabia offered Clinton Osama and we didn't think it important as he was a nobody really. Bush got reports before 9-11 that they were planning an attack again we thought nothing of it. It was a wake up call that the enemy is religious zelots of all faiths (see Timothy McVay) and they are determined and willing to die. They use asemetrical warfare and are a serious threat. Oh and for those who say we should leave Iraq because we are spawning more terrorists, I ask this if we leave Iraq in it's current condition then how will the muslim world look upon us? Yet Bush does need to answer for his actions.

[jt money]

i see you agree then all the money spent in iraq has really been valuable
while dosmetic policy suffers

What gave you that idea?

[AllanahStarrNYC]

:roll:

[jt money]

That is what you said, not me.

[jt money]

and why do u finish every comment with an exclamation mark-

are you yelling, excited, or gyper active?

I like to use them as a point of emphasis. I would post in all caps but that style has already been taken :wink:

[Felicia Katt]

and healthcare should not be provided for everyone?
Not by the government. People bitch enough about HMO's, imagine if the government ran it! And you think the war costs money, healthcare would be ridiculous, ask Canada.?
whats really ironic is that the US backed universal health care coverage in Iraq, but not for its own citizens. so everyone there has access to health care, and 45 million people here are uninsured and do not.

FK

[jt money]

I'll put it to you this way jt money, I feel Bush mislead America period. He gave one reason for the invasion after another, anytime someone questioned his motive he changed it to another reason. If he would of simply said "Saddam lost the first Gulf war under complete surrender, and agreed to let weapons inpectors have free movement and total access. Yet in the nine years after that war he has done nothing but give them the run around, kicked them out of the country repeatedly and so on. The world community needs to act." I would've been with him. As it is I think we need to finish the job at hand and help rebuild Iraq .

You and I both know that people in this country would not go for that. If that line of logic worked, we would have been in there a hell of a lot sooner.


However don't try to sell me on Bush being a saint or even a humanitarian. Yes we liberated Kuwait (the dictatorship, not the people. As he reinstated a dictator not a democratically elected official). Don't give Bush credit for the elections in Saudi Arabia, and don't look to those elections as democracy as they were a joke at best.

You can't honestly expect countries (except the ones we invade and force to) to go from their current government to one like ours over night (or in Iraq's case, two years.)


Don't tell me one country at a time when you, I, and everybody else knows if a country has no viable comodity for corporate there is no hope that this administration (or any other Dem or Rep) will help.

The US has been working to undermine communist and dictators around the globe for longer than we have both been alive.


As I stated I am for finishing what we started if we don't then you get another Taliban (as when we help Afghanistan expel the Soviets, then left ourselves). Don't tell me Bush has done a damned thing to stop terrorism and that Clinton is to blame for it's growth. It was America's over all atittude that we were an untouchable super power. Saudi Arabia offered Clinton Osama and we didn't think it important as he was a nobody really. Bush got reports before 9-11 that they were planning an attack again we thought nothing of it. It was a wake up call that the enemy is religious zelots of all faiths (see Timothy McVay) and they are determined and willing to die. They use asemetrical warfare and are a serious threat.

I never said Clinton was to blame for it's growth. I said it was because of him that they came to believe they could attack the US and we would do nothing (bombing US embassys, attacking the USS Cole, pulling our troops out of Somalia.....) And Bush has done nothing? How about creating the department of homeland defense, reorganizing all of our intelligence agencies to correct the mistakes made before 911, chasing the Taliban and Al Queda out of Afganistan and killing most of them in the process, training other countries troops around the world to fight terrorists, tracking down terrorist fund raisers and seizing there assets....... That's nothing?


Oh and for those who say we should leave Iraq because we are spawning more terrorists, I ask this if we leave Iraq in it's current condition then how will the muslim world look upon us?

As I've stated previously, seeing this through will pay off in the long run.


Yet Bush does need to answer for his actions.


The country has already answered. He was reelected.

[hondarobot]

I really love the fact that Felicia is back. I missed her.

I'm going offline now, but it's nice to have you posting again sweetie.

[jt money]

and healthcare should not be provided for everyone?
Not by the government. People bitch enough about HMO's, imagine if the government ran it! And you think the war costs money, healthcare would be ridiculous, ask Canada.?
whats really ironic is that the US backed universal health care coverage in Iraq, but not for its own citizens. so everyone there has access to health care, and 45 million people here are uninsured and do not.

FK

The 45 million people statistic that is always quoted was generated by counting all the people who discontinued there health care with a certain provider. It does not account for the people who were simply changing companies. The actual number of people without insurance is much lower.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

:shock: u are really in denial arent u

[Hugh Jarrod]

No jt I do not expect it to happen over night, or in 2 years as you say. I'm saying do not credit Bush for shit. You come on here and worship him, speak of him as a saint and kiss his ass. He is no great president. It doesn't matter what the country said by electing shit, they elected Carter, they elected Clinton twice (a man you demonize repeatedly). Homeland security is a joke and you and I both know it, it's just a way to make the lesser intelligent think we are safe. Training troops the world over to fight terrorism where? Undermine communism, there has never been a real example of communism in the history of the world (at least in recorded history) what we undermined were dictators, with other dictators my friend. All along the threat of religious fanatacs continued to grow. Thanks to our tax dollars. We gave plenty of money and weapons to the Taliban, excuse me Muja-hadin (which became the Taliban), and later $$$ to the actual Taliban. First to fight the Soviets, then because we wanted to put a pipeline through Afghanistan. One convenient war, and a former oil guy in charge (Karsai) and mission accomplished. You think we got rid of the Taliban, or Osama no they're still out there. I just think this war has been terribly run from the beginning, and could've been handled better. If Bush really wanted to sieze assets that fund terrorism, he'd go after the House of Saud itself, and you know it.

[chefmike]

:shock: u are really in denial arent u

he's been drinking that rush limbaugh kool-aid...

[Hugh Jarrod]

:shock: u are really in denial arent u

he's been drinking that rush limbaugh kool-aid...

It's better than the stuff Jim Jones had, yet not as good as Timothy Leary's.

[Felicia Katt]

You were right, its not 45 million....
its closer to 46 million
http://www.cbpp.org/8-30-05health.htm

and thats a misleading figure not as you suggest, but because recent studies suggest that close to 60 million Americans will go without health insurance for at least part of this year, and a separate 2001-2002 study concluded that about 74.7 million people went uninsured for part or all of the two-year period.
http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2003-07-10/cover.html

Even assuming you were rght, to have millions people uninsured here while guaranteeing coverage to the Iraquis is just wrong.

FK

[chefmike]

Yes, I would prefer Leary's....I used to anyway...kinda makes me wanna re-read the "electric kool-aid acid test"...

http://usera.imagecave.com/chefmike/thmpson-never-weird-enough.jpg

[jt money]

You were right, its not 45 million....
its closer to 46 million
http://www.cbpp.org/8-30-05health.htm

and thats a misleading figure not as you suggest, but because recent studies suggest that close to 60 million Americans will go without health insurance for at least part of this year, and a separate 2001-2002 study concluded that about 74.7 million people went uninsured for part or all of the two-year period.
http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2003-07-10/cover.html

Even assuming you were rght, to have millions people uninsured here while guaranteeing coverage to the Iraquis is just wrong.

FK

I was explaining how they get those numbers. As far as Iraqi healthcare, they must have passed tort reform with that new constitution.

[jt money]

:shock: u are really in denial arent u

he's been drinking that rush limbaugh kool-aid...

Glad to see the chef is here, unfortunately he still has nothing to contribute to the debate :(

[jt money]

:shock: u are really in denial arent u

It ain't just a river in Egypt. J/K, I'm in Michigan :roll:

[jt money]

No jt I do not expect it to happen over night, or in 2 years as you say. I'm saying do not credit Bush for shit. You come on here and worship him, speak of him as a saint and kiss his ass. He is no great president. It doesn't matter what the country said by electing shit, they elected Carter, they elected Clinton twice (a man you demonize repeatedly). Homeland security is a joke and you and I both know it, it's just a way to make the lesser intelligent think we are safe. Training troops the world over to fight terrorism where? Undermine communism, there has never been a real example of communism in the history of the world (at least in recorded history) what we undermined were dictators, with other dictators my friend. All along the threat of religious fanatacs continued to grow. Thanks to our tax dollars. We gave plenty of money and weapons to the Taliban, excuse me Muja-hadin (which became the Taliban), and later $$$ to the actual Taliban. First to fight the Soviets, then because we wanted to put a pipeline through Afghanistan. One convenient war, and a former oil guy in charge (Karsai) and mission accomplished. You think we got rid of the Taliban, or Osama no they're still out there. I just think this war has been terribly run from the beginning, and could've been handled better. If Bush really wanted to sieze assets that fund terrorism, he'd go after the House of Saud itself, and you know it.

Don't give him any credit? That is denial. No he's no great saint and his presidency will be judged in years to come, as they all are. I'm starting to wonder how many people are actually against the war or just against Bush?

As far homeland security, I'll use another line from the Dude: That's just like....uh....your opinion....man :D

We are training troops to fight in Malaysia, former soviet republics and in Africa.

Please spare me Michael Moore's twisted stories about pipelines and Karzai and the Taliban. That is someone who shouldn't get credit for anything but getting people to debate with his lies.

[Felicia Katt]

I was explaining how they get those numbers. As far as Iraqi healthcare, they must have passed tort reform with that new constitution.

You have offered no proof at all for your assertion. I tried to prove myself wrong, but everything I found supported the numbers I posted except for two recent studies suggesting that number is inflated: A study by the Actuarial Research Corp. estimated that approximately 35 million Americans are currently uninsured, while an Urban Institute report placed the number at 41 million. Both studies confirm that the number of Americans who lack insurance is rising.

As far as the flip comment about the Constitution and Tort reform, the US determined universal access to health care was necessary when they began the occupation.

FK

[jt money]

I was explaining how they get those numbers. As far as Iraqi healthcare, they must have passed tort reform with that new constitution.

You have offered no proof at all for your assertion. I tried to prove myself wrong, but everything I found supported the numbers I posted except for two recent studies suggesting that number is inflated: A study by the Actuarial Research Corp. estimated that approximately 35 million Americans are currently uninsured, while an Urban Institute report placed the number at 41 million. Both studies confirm that the number of Americans who lack insurance is rising.

As far as the flip comment about the Constitution and Tort reform, the US determined universal access to health care was necessary when they began the occupation.

FK

Uh, the tort reform bit was actually a joke but I'm sure you got that. The fact remains that we are a very lawsuit happy society. The first thing the government would do if it ever instituted universal health care is severely limit your ability to sue them so why not do that first? Medical malpractice insurance is astronomical (I'm sure you don't need me to supply yo with a link to this) because of the threat of getting sued by anyone for anything and a jury going along with it because they feel like the money comes from the insurance company so screw them. What they fail to realize is that the insurance companies raise their rates to the doctors who in turn raise the cost to our insurance companies (or individuals who have no insurance.) People can't afford their own insurance anymore so they cancel it.

[jt money]

As to your question of calculations:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/health.html

How many Americans are truly uninsured? During the campaign Bill Clinton stated that 37 million Americans are uninsured. But during his 1994 State of the Union speech President Clinton began using the higher figure of 58 million. Did that mean that 21 million Americans lost health insurance during the first year of the Clinton Administration? Obviously not. So what is the correct figure?

Well, it turns out that these figures only work if you include the Clinton disclaimer "some time each year." This would include anyone who changed jobs, changed health plans, moved, etc. Using that criterion, it would be true to say that I have been homeless in the past since I have been "between homes during some time during a year." But that did not mean that I slept under an overpass. Perhaps a better way to look at this issue would be to figure out how many people do not have insurance over a longer period of time--this would be the people who are chronically uninsured.

So how many Americans are chronically uninsured? It turns out that half the uninsured used in President Clinton's statistic have insurance again within six months. Only 15 percent stay that way for more than 2 years. This produces a figure of about 5.5 million chronically uninsured.

But 37 percent of those people are under the age of 25. For them, insurance plans are often a bad buy or even unnecessary because they may still be covered by their parents' plans. So if we eliminate the 37 percent, this brings the number down to approximately 3 million Americans who are chronically uninsured.

I might also add that some of these 3 million may not want to be insured. Some may be very wealthy and not want health insurance. Some of the other 3 million may want to be outside the system. The Amish may not want to be forced to buy insurance. Christians who are part of a group called "the Brotherhood" have opted out of traditional insurance and pay one another's bills.

So we may have even less than 3 million people are chronically uninsured and want to be insured. That is no small number and it certainly isn't insignificant if you are one of those people who are uninsured. But the 3 million figure does put the problem in a different light.

We could merely expand Medicaid to include these people. We could provide supplementary insurance for these people. We could even come up with free market alternatives. But we don't need government to take over one-seventh of the American economy merely to deal with the problem of 3 million uninsured Americans.

And that's the point, some of the numbers are being used to justify rash and draconian actions. We don't need health alliances, employer mandates, national health boards, or mandated universal coverage if the real problem is that 3 million Americans are chronically uninsured. We can develop a simple program to meet their needs and avoid the problems of socialized medicine.

[Felicia Katt]

your proof is an 11 year old article from Probe Ministries. I will stand by my references supporting figures that at any time in this country close to 1/5 of the population is without health care insurance and an even larger percentage go uncovered for up to 2 years at a time. But even if you were right, and its only (only!!) 3 million people thats 3 million persons that the US cared less about than the people of Iraq.

FK

[Hugh Jarrod]

No jt I do not expect it to happen over night, or in 2 years as you say. I'm saying do not credit Bush for shit. You come on here and worship him, speak of him as a saint and kiss his ass. He is no great president. It doesn't matter what the country said by electing shit, they elected Carter, they elected Clinton twice (a man you demonize repeatedly). Homeland security is a joke and you and I both know it, it's just a way to make the lesser intelligent think we are safe. Training troops the world over to fight terrorism where? Undermine communism, there has never been a real example of communism in the history of the world (at least in recorded history) what we undermined were dictators, with other dictators my friend. All along the threat of religious fanatacs continued to grow. Thanks to our tax dollars. We gave plenty of money and weapons to the Taliban, excuse me Muja-hadin (which became the Taliban), and later $$$ to the actual Taliban. First to fight the Soviets, then because we wanted to put a pipeline through Afghanistan. One convenient war, and a former oil guy in charge (Karsai) and mission accomplished. You think we got rid of the Taliban, or Osama no they're still out there. I just think this war has been terribly run from the beginning, and could've been handled better. If Bush really wanted to sieze assets that fund terrorism, he'd go after the House of Saud itself, and you know it.

Don't give him any credit? That is denial. No he's no great saint and his presidency will be judged in years to come, as they all are. I'm starting to wonder how many people are actually against the war or just against Bush?

As far homeland security, I'll use another line from the Dude: That's just like....uh....your opinion....man :D

We are training troops to fight in Malaysia, former soviet republics and in Africa.

Please spare me Michael Moore's twisted stories about pipelines and Karzai and the Taliban. That is someone who shouldn't get credit for anything but getting people to debate with his lies.

LOL! Ah you Bush supporters are all the same, you hear about Afghanistan and oil and you scream about MM. So funny, I am for finishing the war and staying the course, however count me as one of those against Bush. No it's not denial he really hasn't done shit to fight terrorism. Yes, yes it is my opinion which is different from yours, we live in America where we can express said opinions. Where we are granted rights by our creator, and allow the government to have certain abilities. You give him all the credit for spreading democracy in the middle east? Elections outside Iraq and Saudi Arabia were not the work of Bush. He's an assclown who's cabinet has turned Iraq into a cluster fuck my friend. What I give him credit for is running one of the most "1/2 truth" informing campains in history, and the current republican political machine really is something to be hold. Anyone speaks up and they are demonized in the press with reckless abandon. The exact thing they accuse the left of doing it's almost comical. There was a great website called www.spinsanity.com that showed all the "1/2 truths" told by politicians (D or R). They had to apologize for seeming to be anti Bush, it's just that everything he did was so two faced and shady.

[jt money]

So Hugh, what do you think needs to be done to fight terrorism since all to this point has been shit?

Damnit, screwin around here I missed the World Series sweep!!

[djlindy5763]

Bring our boys home NOW

[jt money]

your proof is an 11 year old article from Probe Ministries. I will stand by my references supporting figures that at any time in this country close to 1/5 of the population is without health care insurance and an even larger percentage go uncovered for up to 2 years at a time. But even if you were right, and its only (only!!) 3 million people thats 3 million persons that the US cared less about than the people of Iraq.

FK

Again, I was explaining to you how the numbers were calculated and that is what the article does. The article deals with HillaryCare, or socialized healthcare, whichever term you prefer. When people talk about national healthcare, that is what they are talking about so the article is completely relevant.

3 million people is 1% of the population. You are advocating socializing healthcare and handing over 1/7 of the national economy to the government to correct this?

As the article states, "We could merely expand Medicaid to include these people. We could provide supplementary insurance for these people. We could even come up with free market alternatives. But we don't need government to take over one-seventh of the American economy merely to deal with the problem of 3 million uninsured Americans. "

[Hugh Jarrod]

So Hugh, what do you think needs to be done to fight terrorism since all to this point has been shit?

Damnit, screwin around here I missed the World Series sweep!!


Well first off I wouldn't call the invasion of Iraq a blow to terrorism, I wouldn't tell the world it was because of me there were elections in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon. When my military advisors told me I would need a certain amount of troops, I would've listened. I wouldn't have cut the pay of the soldiers who fight for our freedom. I wouldn't allow Carl Rove any fuckin' slack for outing a CIA agent. Also build better intelligence on the region, something very few Presidents have done. Look for alternative fuel sources (and I don't mean just drilling more oil in places like Alaska), I mean real renewable fuel sources. Instead of subsadizing corn farmers for Sucralose how about methanol instead? You do realize the only reason no president has told Saudi Arabia to fuck off is because we're to busy sucking their oil laden cocks.

[jt money]

So Hugh, what do you think needs to be done to fight terrorism since all to this point has been shit?

Damnit, screwin around here I missed the World Series sweep!!


Look for alternative fuel sources (and I don't mean just drilling more oil in places like Alaska), I mean real renewable fuel sources. Instead of subsadizing corn farmers for Sucralose how about methanol instead? You do realize the only reason no president has told Saudi Arabia to fuck off is because we're to busy sucking their oil laden cocks.


Energy conservation:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/06/20010628-2.html

National Energy Plan:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/energy/

"The bill also expands research into developing hydrogen technologies and establishes a flexible, national Renewable Fuels Standard to encourage greater use of renewable fuels like ethanol and biodiesel."


The reason we haven't told Saudi Arabia or Venezuala to fuck off is we need the oil, plain and simple.

[Hugh Jarrod]

WOW! All that info and straight from the Whitehouse! Honesty and no spin! LOL! Gotta do better than that jt.

[jt money]

So Hugh, what do you think needs to be done to fight terrorism since all to this point has been shit?

Damnit, screwin around here I missed the World Series sweep!!

Also build better intelligence on the region, something very few Presidents have done.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2005/0324pentagonspying.htm

"The Pentagon's new emphasis on intelligence gathering overseas has led to a major expansion of espionage operations and a more prominent role for intelligence officers in military decision making and war planning, Defense officials said Wednesday. As part of the plan, the Pentagon is expanding the number of spies and special operations forces abroad and creating new intelligence analysis centers inside military commands worldwide, the officials said. "

Hugh, it sounds like the administration has already implemented your plan. Thanks for being on board with it!

[jt money]

WOW! All that info and straight from the Whitehouse! Honesty and no spin! LOL! Gotta do better than that jt.

And your evidence contrary is where?

[Hugh Jarrod]

LOL! Sorry Mr.W ass kisser but I'm not on board with it. Read the above post. Look it's obvious as I said before he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong, you're the type of person that saddens me. If he ate a baby on TV you'd find a means to justify it and some press release as a source for your view. You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy.

[jt money]

LOL! Sorry Mr.W ass kisser but I'm not on board with it. Read the above post. Look it's obvious as I said before he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong, you're the type of person that saddens me. If he ate a baby on TV you'd find a means to justify it and some press release as a source for your view. You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy.

So basically when your argument of "that is conservative bullshit" is proven wrong, you resort to namecalling? You're right, that is sad!

[Hugh Jarrod]

LOL! Sorry Mr.W ass kisser but I'm not on board with it. Read the above post. Look it's obvious as I said before he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong, you're the type of person that saddens me. If he ate a baby on TV you'd find a means to justify it and some press release as a source for your view. You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy.

So basically when your argument of "that is conservative bullshit" is proven wrong, you resort to namecalling? You're right, that is sad!

Nice try, but read closer my friend. I said in your eyes he can obviosly do no wrong. I also said 2 posts back, your source was a press release from Bush. Pay close attention to each post before you make such accusations. It would be good for you if you kept cool and the other guy exploded in rage I understand where you're trying to go. However as I said look closer, and stop trying to steer readers in that direction my friend. Prove to the world you're open minded has Bush done anything you disagree with?

[Hugh Jarrod]

P.S. those kinds of arguements are for people like you, only in your case you'd say "liberal bullshit" and lump everyone into a categiry, that if they're not with you then they must be liberal.

[chefmike]

P.S. those kinds of arguements are for people like you, only in your case you'd say "liberal bullshit" and lump everyone into a categiry, that if they're not with you then they must be liberal.

one of the BIGGEST mistakes that progressive's have made is allowing the rightwingers to demonize the term liberal...

[chefmike]

...

[jt money]

LOL! Sorry Mr.W ass kisser but I'm not on board with it. Read the above post. Look it's obvious as I said before he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong, you're the type of person that saddens me. If he ate a baby on TV you'd find a means to justify it and some press release as a source for your view. You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy.

So basically when your argument of "that is conservative bullshit" is proven wrong, you resort to namecalling? You're right, that is sad!

Nice try, but read closer my friend. I said in your eyes he can obviosly do no wrong. I also said 2 posts back, your source was a press release from Bush. Pay close attention to each post before you make such accusations. It would be good for you if you kept cool and the other guy exploded in rage I understand where you're trying to go. However as I said look closer, and stop trying to steer readers in that direction my friend. Prove to the world you're open minded has Bush done anything you disagree with?

You are calling spin what is the national energy plan passed by congress and signed by the president. Open the links instead of just reading them. If you don't like that one, look for national energy plan on msn or something else that agrees with you.

And no you didn't say in my eyes he does not wrong, you said "You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy." but whatever...

[jt money]

P.S. those kinds of arguements are for people like you, only in your case you'd say "liberal bullshit" and lump everyone into a categiry, that if they're not with you then they must be liberal.

Where did I do that? I'm not the one complaining about the source of the links.

[jt money]

...

Wow, you know how to use photoshop too. Congrats!!

[Hugh Jarrod]

LOL! Sorry Mr.W ass kisser but I'm not on board with it. Read the above post. Look it's obvious as I said before he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong , you're the type of person that saddens me. If he ate a baby on TV you'd find a means to justify it and some press release as a source for your view. You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy.

So basically when your argument of "that is conservative bullshit" is proven wrong, you resort to namecalling? You're right, that is sad!

Nice try, but read closer my friend. I said in your eyes he can obviosly do no wrong. I also said 2 posts back, your source was a press release from Bush. Pay close attention to each post before you make such accusations. It would be good for you if you kept cool and the other guy exploded in rage I understand where you're trying to go. However as I said look closer, and stop trying to steer readers in that direction my friend. Prove to the world you're open minded has Bush done anything you disagree with?

You are calling spin what is the national energy plan passed by congress and signed by the president. Open the links instead of just reading them. If you don't like that one, look for national energy plan on msn or something else that agrees with you.

And no you didn't say in my eyes he does not wrong, you said "You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy." but whatever...

"he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong....^see above^ and that tongue thing as well.
As well you know damned well if I used anything from the white house during the Clinton admin. you'd question it brother. I don't think Bush is evil or even a terrible person just don't think he's the great leader you portray him as. You're right though I shouldn't read links you send???

[Hugh Jarrod]

P.S. those kinds of arguements are for people like you, only in your case you'd say "liberal bullshit" and lump everyone into a categiry, that if they're not with you then they must be liberal.

one of the BIGGEST mistakes that progressive's have made is allowing the rightwingers to demonize the term liberal...

TRUE, this is a tactic now employed by the far right. If anyone disagrees demonize them, label them liberal. Talk radio plays a big part in that as well. I listen to Randy Savage who I like, yet he does it a lot. However when he disagrees with Bush he calls him on it, and doesn't just kiss his ass.

[jt money]

LOL! Sorry Mr.W ass kisser but I'm not on board with it. Read the above post. Look it's obvious as I said before he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong , you're the type of person that saddens me. If he ate a baby on TV you'd find a means to justify it and some press release as a source for your view. You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy.

So basically when your argument of "that is conservative bullshit" is proven wrong, you resort to namecalling? You're right, that is sad!

Nice try, but read closer my friend. I said in your eyes he can obviosly do no wrong. I also said 2 posts back, your source was a press release from Bush. Pay close attention to each post before you make such accusations. It would be good for you if you kept cool and the other guy exploded in rage I understand where you're trying to go. However as I said look closer, and stop trying to steer readers in that direction my friend. Prove to the world you're open minded has Bush done anything you disagree with?

You are calling spin what is the national energy plan passed by congress and signed by the president. Open the links instead of just reading them. If you don't like that one, look for national energy plan on msn or something else that agrees with you.

And no you didn't say in my eyes he does not wrong, you said "You have your tongue so far up his ass you can taste what he had for lunch, enjoy." but whatever...

"he is a god or saint to you and can do no wrong....^see above^ and that tongue thing as well.
As well you know damned well if I used anything from the white house during the Clinton admin. you'd question it brother. I don't think Bush is evil or even a terrible person just don't think he's the great leader you portray him as. You're right though I shouldn't read links you send???

Feel free to question away if you find something unfactual in my postings and I will do the same with yours. As stated previously, the link I gave you was to the National Energy Plan that is available all over the internet but you dismiss it as propaganda.

[zerrrr]

200!!!

Some fun links that people might like to read for perspective.

www.joe-duarte.com

www.theoildrum.com

crap. forgot about the email thing. you can google the terms and get validation for the links.

[brickcitybrother]

Been away - can't even imagine the great discussion this post caused.

[chefmike]

ahhh...the irony...