Passable or not passable, what if a girl was NOT passable??

[TsVanessa69]

I am taking part in a documentary about influential trans woman in Chicago, and was ask to search you tube, and make response videos to subjects that I felt personally effected me and my life.
This is the first response video, I would love for both the guy and girl members to take a peek and share your feedback.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJIyz8xh354

when I do public speaking or post blogs, I do speak openly and honestly and from the heart.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I'm sitting here listening to your youtube Vanessa and I'm impressed by you being open about your history and I have nothing bad to say about your video response. I do however laugh at the word "passable" because what you said around 4:30 into the video is key to this whole thread. The 1st time I heard the word was not from a straight man, or a gay man; it was from a transsexual. A transsexual who spent about 40 to 50k on their body and felt because of that they could speak down on someone who hasn't yet reached their level.

I just wanted to point that out, because many times guys take the blame for words like this when in reality if there is ever a confrontation between 2 girls one of them is ALWAYS throwing this word out to insult the other party......

JWBL

[yodajazz]

What you said was well put and a healthy outlook. However, I could understand a trans woman who wants access to all that other women have. 'Passing' would be avoiding discrimination and other issues that trans women must deal with in society. That being said, I see your approach as being the best, because society needs to see living examples to help it change.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

I think that was a very intelligent and well thought response Reina, because in the end all that matters is self acceptance and love. You can be the most beautiful, 'passable' ts in the world but if you don't accept, love, or are comfortable with yourself you will be just as miserable as someone who has a complex about not 'passing' and lives in shame of it.

Not everyone is dealt the same cards in life and some girls will have to deal with this issue, other girls won't. It's like beauty, not every single GG is born beautiful. Yet everyone expects every transsexual to be beautiful. A ts woman who is more obvious obviously has different issues to deal with in society as opposed to a ts woman who gets by.

I think this self acceptance comes with age- there is a point, at least there was for me, when I realized that I had to stop letting society, others opinions, or even a man give my my worth.

The fact that I am a ts is really just second nature to me, I don't even think about it. It's really a liberating thing to feel ok with being who you are and simply not giving a FUCK.

[bte]

What you said was well put and a healthy outlook. However, I could understand a trans woman who wants access to all that other women have. 'Passing' would be avoiding discrimination and other issues that trans women must deal with in society. That being said, I see your approach as being the best, because society needs to see living examples to help it change.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with everything that Vanessa says. I have a friend who still dresses as a man, but identifies as a transsexual. When I asked her how come she doesn't make the change such as taking hormones, dressing as a girl, and getting surgeries; she said she was worried about passing. Its a shame that a lot of people seem to be focused on passing. Our society tends to judge people based on looks and its a shame.

[TsVanessa69]

What you said was well put and a healthy outlook. However, I could understand a trans woman who wants access to all that other women have. 'Passing' would be avoiding discrimination and other issues that trans women must deal with in society. That being said, I see your approach as being the best, because society needs to see living examples to help it change.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with everything that Vanessa says. I have a friend who still dresses as a man, but identifies as a transsexual. When I asked her how come she doesn't make the change such as taking hormones, dressing as a girl, and getting surgeries; she said she was worried about passing. Its a shame that a lot of people seem to be focused on passing. Our society tends to judge people based on looks and its a shame.

Thats what I was speaking on.
I was almost like your friend, many people who do identify as trans, sometimes don't live as trans because they are scared. So basically they are forced to live a lie.
I made the video to reach those girls like your friend.
NO I'm not pretty and no I'm not passable, and many times on here in flame wars with girls like even Mimi, they would say how manly I looked.
But its too late. I stopped giving a fuck about 10 years ago.
I'm trans, and I'm ok with that.
Maybe you can show your friend my video and the original video I responded too and manybe it will trigger something in her mind where she says she will at least give it a try.

[rockabilly]

It's truly what's on the inside that counts.

[TsVanessa69]

What you said was well put and a healthy outlook. However, I could understand a trans woman who wants access to all that other women have. 'Passing' would be avoiding discrimination and other issues that trans women must deal with in society. That being said, I see your approach as being the best, because society needs to see living examples to help it change.
But I do have acess to all that other woman have.
In my neighborhood, I am active in events, socialize with everyone and even play with their kids. Its never even been mentioned, or at least not in front of me.
I also go to church on Sundays and everyone there treats me just like anybody else in my parish.
At my job, my co-workers love having me around, and I blend in with all the other females at my workplace, we make jokes and talk shit about men, money and kids. I fit in, its not acting. It comes natural.
I know I'm trans and I just do me. And I am blessed to say, people respect me.
Now on here I'm not Miss Popular, but thats ok, the popular girls on here, some of them are not so popular in real life. So I'm ok not being pretty and not being popular, because I have respect for myself, and I am respected where it matters.

[rockabilly]

" To thine own self be true " bravo Vanessa.

[tgirlzoe]

These last few months have radically changed my position on that.

I came out as trans at 16, fought with my parents for a couple years about it until I went off to university and transitioned at 19. I quickly went "stealth". I lived off-campus with different people for a while, I bounced around a lot. I had a personal policy of telling people I was trans if it looked like I was really going to get the room but that got harder and harder. So then I didn't tell a girl for a week after I moved in, the next girl I didn't tell for about 6 weeks and then I decided to just live on campus the next quarter and so I moved on campus, into the girls' dorms and I didn't tell the school (though you'd assume they would notice something in my records) and I didn't tell my roommates (it was a suite of 4 girls in 2 bedrooms). After that, I stopped telling people.

Later, it became known among my close friends, who I was living with for years, but I kept it within that circle -- even in the circle, some people knew and some people didn't, my friends were good at keeping my secret. I had minimum wage jobs and such and none of my coworkers or bosses knew and I never felt like I should tell them. I was out about being bisexual because I am, because that's how I live my life (I was dating another tgirl in an open relationship for a couple years) but I didn't feel like being trans was a direct part of my public identity (private identity and history, of course, but more like a skeleton in a closet).

Last summer, I was involved with a very good man who I adored. I would have married him if he would have asked me; he was gorgeous, sexy, sweet, sensitive and creative. He was also religious -- he was rediscovering his Catholic roots. I was living in a religious commune that was Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican with a focus on the Anglican part (we were involved in the local traditional Anglican parish) so even if I didn't always live like it, I was religious too. He eventually convinced me that I could never really get married, that it would always be this separate thing, like a homosexual union, even if the other person and I and society saw it as heterosexual (as was with our relationship) because metaphysically, I was still male.

This, coupled with our breaking up because he went back to school (he did visit once after that last November and we had sex but I haven't seen him since even though we still talk a lot), was devastating for me. I just wanted to have a "normal life" and get married and raise (adopted, of course) kids. I was just looking for Mr. Right and I guess I realized that, as Groucho Marx said he wouldn't join a club who would have him as a member, my ideal man wouldn't want me because it would be too important to him to raise a natural family and have a certain marriage to a bio-female. So where was my life leading?

In a couple months, I unraveled years of transition. I stopped taking hormones. I came out to everyone at work, telling them that I had been born male and was returning to that because it was the right thing to do. They didn't believe me but I pushed the issue, showed photos and such and I succeeded in eventually convincing everyone. I even finally was able to get the management to let me use the men's room, but it involved regional management. I moved across town and started going to the Catholic Church there where nobody had known me as a girl.

A couple days after the big transition at work, where the management told everybody to call me by a different name (not my given name, I was experimenting), I put in my two weeks' notice. I changed my name to my given name legally and flew off across the country to visit a traditional (Latin Mass) Catholic monastery for a month in retreat. I was hoping to make a totally new start. A girl even convinced me I would be more handsome if she cut my hair and so she shaved my head with a #4 razor (1/2").

But I was so depressed and when I looked in the mirror I didn't know who I was. I didn't see a future possibility of me marrying a woman and having that sort of relationship. I would still get kids, maybe even biological if that still works, and I could have my little house and garden and everything I wanted. I also explored the possibility of religious life, being a monk or a friar though I'm sure they'd be dubious about accepting me with my history.

So I flew back to my town but I spent the first week back very depressed and drinking every day. The week culminated with me going to the local gay bar and hooking a cute, intelligent straight-acting gay guy. This was the first time I'd ever really had a guy attracted to me as a guy. We screwed around for a few minutes at my house and I was trying to put that out of my mind but there was a big difference between a guy being into me as a girl and this guy being into me as a guy. I realized there was no way I could be a gay guy either, it's something different.

So after a couple days of being depressed about it, on Tuesday, I decided that I was for sure going back to being my old self. I haven't told my parents yet (they had accepted my transition finally but my dad was still very happy, as much as he ever expresses emotion, that I had become his only son again). I don't have any hair anymore (which was my pride) so I've been playing with hats and spiking it. I'm trying to use it to play with a punkier look than before. Mostly, I end up looking like a butch dyke but whatever, at least it's female.

So after years of statements like "passing isn't a privilege, it's the point" and all this other focus on men's attraction to me being used to support my self-esteem, I know that I have to transition for myself, whether or not I ever get married (or if it counts), whether or not I am attractive to men, whether or not everybody knows (because many people know now!), I have to transition. So where I was a stuck-up, bitchy, prideful tgirl, now I am a lot more humble. See, yes, I have almost 5 years of hormones behind me but in other respects I am just like anyone starting out transitioning at 24 with a male name, short hair, no clothes (I donated all mine except for a suitcase of simple cheap men's clothes) and no hormones (I just re-ordered them yesterday so hopefully today or Monday I will get them). I don't pass and I have to look for a new job. I even have to come out to my parents!

So that is what passing means to me -- it used to be my whole focus of transition, being passable and stealth. But take away my name, my clothes and shave my head and out me to everyone, and I understand a lot better the position of transsexuals who I used to mock and feel self-righteous towards (though I'm still not 40 with a wife and kids). I am a lot more sympathetic and humble. I used to say that I didn't remember why I transitioned, that I was a girl simply because I was one yesterday and the day before and I just get up and go to work and live my life. Well, now I know why I transitioned -- because there is no life for me as a man, it's far too depressing and lifeless and what was true for me as a teenager is still true, that without killing my male self and living as a female I would likely end up killing myself altogether (either actively or just through drinking).

I have been the one to say that if you can't pass, you shouldn't transition. While I still believe that people need to be realistic and know the realities of living a transitioned life, I realize how much of an impossibility it is for many people to continue living a male life. It doesn't matter to me if any man is attracted to me again, I'm not going to base my self-image on that. If I walk down the street and I look like a crossdresser, that's the reality. If I'm never going to be able to go stealth again (well, it would be hard in this town anyway), I will have to accept the reality that I am a transsexual woman.

When my parents found out I was on hormones, they threw me out (I was 19 and had already been at university a year but it was summer). It took a couple years of not seeing them before they were desperate enough to have me in their life even if I was a girl. But my mom said that I should be open about my trans status (especially with men) and not hide it from my friends. I thought she was ridiculous then, I was happy being a 22 year old girl without strings. But now I am 24 and maybe a bit wiser, especially after the craziness of the past few months. I don't see myself being a trans activist, but if I can accept my trans status without being ashamed of it (I was quite embarrassed by it) then I have grown up from this experience.

I am a trans woman, passable or not.

[Dirky]

Wow, Zoe. That was one of the most moving and powerful posts I've ever read on the internet. I'm speechless. Well done!

[rockabilly]

Co-Sign that , I'm happy w/ who i am ... if other people like me , that's a bonus. " I like me " :D

[tgirlzoe]

Thank you guys.

Part of a homily from my priest had to do with pre-marital counseling for couples. People often know they're physically attracted to their fiancees and if they're virgins, having sex available and encouraged and celebrated instead of condemned and disdained, it's exciting. But people don't stay pretty on the outside forever. You have to fall in love with who the person is on the inside, that you'll still have a happy relationship when you're 70 and not out watching 25 year old hotties.

When you're 18-25, you're in this prime of trying to make yourself attractive to members of the opposite sex and being trendy and all that mess. I'm nearing my 25th birthday in a couple months and I've spent that time period living as a woman, living it up in many ways (though I'm not like these New York girls, I live in a much smaller town). Now I'm really feeling the pressure to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life, I don't want to be out hitting the clubs every weekend in 10 years (not that I do now, I usually just chill with friends at home). I need to grow up at some point.

Every person has to come to this point, where they have to work on themselves and do what is important to them. The Church says that I can't get married and maybe I won't. But either way, I need to have a sense of myself outside of my relationships with men. I have my own interests, my own hobbies, my own personality that have nothing to do with my transsexuality or with men. If I do end up getting married, I still need to be a whole person, otherwise there are going to be problems in that sort of relationship if I don't know who I am.

Passing is a focus because it allows us to focus on things other than our transsexuality. Because otherwise people will make it a focus when it really should just be a means to an end, not an end in itself. The end should be loving other people and (I know there are a lot of atheists here but anyway) God. It's those relationships which matter and you can't build those with plastic surgery or designer clothes.

If transitioning improves your mental state, if it helps you be a better friend and a better member of your family, if it helps you to be a more productive member of society and help people, then you should transition. If you are just going to get more and more wrapped up in your own mess and become a self-centered bitch, then why bother?

Jesus said that those who lose their lives will save them. The only way to help yourself is to help other people. If you're planted in the soil of humanity, you will thrive but if you are uprooted and separate, you'll just rot. The happiest people are those who don't focus on their own happiness. I am who I am, now what can I do to make the world a better place and be a better friend, a better child/sibling(/spouse/parent)? We can't just say, "I'll do some good like volunteering or whatever, once I'm retired" or "I'll give away my money if I win the lottery", we have to work with what we have right now, where we are right now.

It sounds like Vanessa has found her place in helping trans people in some sort of support center. That's great! Other people find their place in having quiet married lives and raising healthy children. We just need to figure out where we can do the most good and do it. People say that transition is selfish but I said it five years ago and I realized that it's still true that if I do not transition, I will be no good to anyone.

Someone can be the most passable, physically beautiful, deep stealth transsexual and still be a self-centered bitch. Another can be a total tranny trainwreck and be a really amazing, loving person. I'd much rather be the latter. People focus on passing but all that means is that now you're at the same level with 3 billion other people on the planet who were born female. Now you actually have to do something.

Take care everyone!

[rockabilly]

Wise beyond your years Zoe. What kind of hobbies ... besides gaming ? :)

[lochaber]

good vid, Vanessa; you seem like you have a really healthy perspective on things, congrats.

and great post Zoe, thanks for sharing... That's a lot to go through, and I'm sorry to hear that you experienced all that. I'm not religious myself, so please don't take offense at this, but if you're having conflict with your church, I would strongly recommend looking at some other sects/denominations, and find one that would be more supportive of you, including your goals of marriage and parenting.

Personally, I think a lot of these issues tie in with society trying to shoe-horn everything into a binary system, when many of these things (sex, gender, sexuality, etc.) are actually more of a gradient or a spectrum.

Most people (from what I have seen) tend to see gender and sex as the same thing, and only two possible versions, male and female. Granted, a pretty large majority of people fall into these categories, but even within those categories, some people are more 'feminine' or 'masculine' then others within the same category.

Also, even biologically, there is more then just XX and XY. I can't remember even most of the common variants, but the ones that come to mind are XXX, XYY, XXY, and then there is the issue with hormone exposure in the womb for some XY and XX individuals (not sure if that's still a dominant hypothesis...).

We even see it on this board, people calling each other gay, or 'fags' , and making blanket statements (false dichotomy at that...) like 'if you're a guy and you suck cock, you're gay, just come out and get over it' etc., etc.

bleh, I'm getting off track... Anyways, what I was thinking was that because so many people are so set on everything falling into one of two categories, instead of viewing things as a spectrum/gradient/whatever, trans people get left out of the system. And this is where I think the passable bit comes in: those who are seen as passable, get shoe-horned into that pigeonhole labeled 'female', while those who don't get shoe-horned into the other pigeonhole labeled 'male'. And then this extends to those who are attracted to trans people...

Eh, I'm pretty sure most everyone on here is aware of this stuff, but it kinda bugs me. I'm generally against false dichotomies, or even just using that method of categorization (although, I will admit it can be an easy way to look at the world, it just isn't very accurate). I know it's naive, but I wish people would just be a little more open-minded, accepting, and less-judgmental of others (or at least, mind their own damned business...).

[TsVanessa69]

tHANKS FOR SHARING ZOE!!
I WAS HOPING MORE GIRLS WOULD SPEAK UP!
yOU AND aLLANAH SPOKE UP, WHERE ARE THE OTHER GIRLS?

[phobun]

He eventually convinced me that I could never really get married, that it would always be this separate thing, like a homosexual union, even if the other person and I and society saw it as heterosexual (as was with our relationship) because metaphysically, I was still male.

This, coupled with our breaking up because he went back to school (he did visit once after that last November and we had sex but I haven't seen him since even though we still talk a lot), was devastating for me. I just wanted to have a "normal life" and get married and raise (adopted, of course) kids. I was just looking for Mr. Right and I guess I realized that, as Groucho Marx said he wouldn't join a club who would have him as a member, my ideal man wouldn't want me because it would be too important to him to raise a natural family and have a certain marriage to a bio-female. So where was my life leading?
This religious guy is willing to have sex with you after suggesting that ultimately you're just a guy who could only hope for nothing more than a homosexual union.

What a prick! What a serpent in disguise!

As hurtful as this was to you, I think it is important to put the whole episode into perspective as more evidence that you're a girl in your heart and soul, because girls are always falling for the bad guys who are destructive to them. And he most certainly was.

[yodajazz]

Thanks Zoe for tow great posts. You are rich in experience. Life is always about self discovery and self identity. Many people hide from themselves, and the result is that they cannot find true happiness. You are on the right road, as is Vanessa. When you know yourself, then it is truely possible to love someone else. But the test of real love is that it helps us be more of our true selves.

[inanelymad]

Zoe,

Many, many people don't find the right person to settle down with until much later in life. Approaching 25 isn't in any way past your prime. I think its great that you are really feeling in touch with who you need to be. All the external things of finding love, etc. will come in time. Just enjoy your life being who you are!

Too many people focus on a goal, marriage, kids, etc. that is short sighted. Once you get it then what? If you make your goal to try and be happy in you life, you'll be much better off!

[transmaven]

Zoe,

A tip to grow your hair *incredibly fast* and, as a bonus, make your skin amazingly soft as well:

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-MSM-Powder-35-oz-1000-g/1283?at=0

Your posts in this thread were some of the best I've read here.

Take care.--

[surfblue]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIE

[BLKGSXR]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIEwtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...

[fred41]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIEwtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...

GXSR..I'm sure he's just the perfect fuckin' example of a man himself. :roll:

[BLKGSXR]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIEwtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...

I'm sure he's just the perfect fuckin' example of a man himself. :roll:Man, smh hes an adolescent probably hasnt even gotten with a gg due to his horrendous personality, and if he did thats one stupid female.

[Jericho]

In other words, forget passable, be who you are?
Absolutely +1

[surfblue]

wtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...
OH SHIT its the hero again , come to save the day!

you know what baffles me about fags like you? how you can lower your standards for a cock and pretend u dont even like cock

if ur lookin for an emotional connection with these solictors then you must be one deseperate piece of shit

dont tell me ur only on this site simply cause you're into y chromosomes

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif

[phobun]

In other words, forget passable, be who you are?
Absolutely +1
Just say he's not being fair... you Frenchies with your French words.

[phobun]

wtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...
OH SHIT its the hero again , come to save the day!

you know what baffles me about fags like you? how you can lower your standards for a cock and pretend u dont even like cock

if ur lookin for an emotional connection with these solictors then you must be one deseperate piece of shit

dont tell me ur only on this site simply cause you're into y chromosomes
THis must be a white, surfer version of Solitary.

[BLKGSXR]

wtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...
OH SHIT its the hero again , come to save the day!

you know what baffles me about fags like you? how you can lower your standards for a cock and pretend u dont even like cock

if ur lookin for an emotional connection with these solictors then you must be one deseperate piece of shit

dont tell me ur only on this site simply cause you're into y chromosomes
THis must be a white, surfer version of Solitary.I the same thing to sarahG lmfao well kinda-Said hes just as bad as SB.

[phobun]

wtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...
OH SHIT its the hero again , come to save the day!

you know what baffles me about fags like you? how you can lower your standards for a cock and pretend u dont even like cock

if ur lookin for an emotional connection with these solictors then you must be one deseperate piece of shit

dont tell me ur only on this site simply cause you're into y chromosomes
THis must be a white, surfer version of Solitary.I the same thing to sarahG lmfao well kinda-Said hes just as bad as SB.
If you taunt him too much he'll post a video of himself hitting the heavy waves.

[surfblue]

wtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...
OH SHIT its the hero again , come to save the day!

you know what baffles me about fags like you? how you can lower your standards for a cock and pretend u dont even like cock

if ur lookin for an emotional connection with these solictors then you must be one deseperate piece of shit

dont tell me ur only on this site simply cause you're into y chromosomes
THis must be a white, surfer version of Solitary.I the same thing to sarahG lmfao well kinda-Said hes just as bad as SB.

yo dog why u be hatin on dat nigga, i thought u niggas be stickin togedda and shyt..........damn homie dat shyt is cold, why u gotta be lyk dat

[surfblue]

wtf is your dysfunction? dude you're a fucking idiot...
OH SHIT its the hero again , come to save the day!

you know what baffles me about fags like you? how you can lower your standards for a cock and pretend u dont even like cock

if ur lookin for an emotional connection with these solictors then you must be one deseperate piece of shit

dont tell me ur only on this site simply cause you're into y chromosomes
THis must be a white, surfer version of Solitary.I the same thing to sarahG lmfao well kinda-Said hes just as bad as SB.
If you taunt him too much he'll post a video of himself hitting the heavy waves.
ha...i think u would enjoy that too much babe ;)

[rockabilly]

..

[TsVanessa69]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIE
You know what you are right!
I am NOT passable
I am UGLY
My voice is DEEP
But I'm woman enough to say fuck all that I'm still going to do ME!
Ugly and all! I speak in universitys, I am in magaxzines, newspapers, gay and straight, and am currently working with producers on a mimi-documentarty on ME and MY life as a Puerto Rican trans WOMAN who is active and accepted and RESPECTED in the straight world.
I'm not like some girls on here, who only live and breathe the gay or tranny world.
I can work a normal 9-5 job, and do anything any other female can do. SO its people like you that keep me going.
I' still going to be performing on stage, doing my activism work and everything else this ugly manly, you forgot old, but Mimi or Jennifer Justice will eventually get that one in, but none of you ignorant haters is stoppin my flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[surfblue]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIE
You know what you are right!
I am NOT passable
I am UGLY
My voice is DEEP
But I'm woman enough to say fuck all that I'm still going to do ME!
Ugly and all! I speak in universitys, I am in magaxzines, newspapers, gay and straight, and am currently working with producers on a mimi-documentarty on ME and MY life as a Puerto Rican trans WOMAN who is active and accepted and RESPECTED in the straight world.
I'm not like some girls on here, who only live and breathe the gay or tranny world.
I can work a normal 9-5 job, and do anything any other female can do. SO its people like you that keep me going.
I' still going to be performing on stage, doing my activism work and everything else this ugly manly, you forgot old, but Mimi or Jennifer Justice will eventually get that one in, but none of you ignorant haters is stoppin my flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gif

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[TsVanessa69]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIE
You know what you are right!
I am NOT passable
I am UGLY
My voice is DEEP
But I'm woman enough to say fuck all that I'm still going to do ME!
Ugly and all! I speak in universitys, I am in magaxzines, newspapers, gay and straight, and am currently working with producers on a mimi-documentarty on ME and MY life as a Puerto Rican trans WOMAN who is active and accepted and RESPECTED in the straight world.
I'm not like some girls on here, who only live and breathe the gay or tranny world.
I can work a normal 9-5 job, and do anything any other female can do. SO its people like you that keep me going.
I' still going to be performing on stage, doing my activism work and everything else this ugly manly, you forgot old, but Mimi or Jennifer Justice will eventually get that one in, but none of you ignorant haters is stoppin my flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gif

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http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gif

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Thats what I do all the way to the bank!
Laugh at douchebags like you!
Clearly from your posts you are one of those guys who don't even get pussy in real life, so you come online and play tough, nobody's buying the e-pussy act!

[tslvrnyc]

give HIM three years, if theres no improvement KILL IT! hahahahah http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif

hey nonpassables dont take it personal this is how i view real girls too, ugly and fat bitches should all be euthanized and the government should pay for it

but the biggest mistake u can make is thinking that U vanessa are passable hahahaha! i mean shit bitch, are those lips supposed to make u feminine? and ur voice is deeper than mine hahahaha! http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/vomit-3.gif

sorry its just that im about raising the standards, keeping shit photogenic not rewarding mediocrity or worse, so that we're not surrounded by more eyesores

zoe you are so hot , which makes your plight is SO heartbreaking. its incredible what you had to go through. your experiences have surely made a strong woman out of you. all the best :cry:

but for the rest of you i could give a fuck about your conditions and shit :sleep

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-030.gif



ALL UGLY TRANNIES MUST DIE
You know what you are right!
I am NOT passable
I am UGLY
My voice is DEEP
But I'm woman enough to say fuck all that I'm still going to do ME!
Ugly and all! I speak in universitys, I am in magaxzines, newspapers, gay and straight, and am currently working with producers on a mimi-documentarty on ME and MY life as a Puerto Rican trans WOMAN who is active and accepted and RESPECTED in the straight world.
I'm not like some girls on here, who only live and breathe the gay or tranny world.
I can work a normal 9-5 job, and do anything any other female can do. SO its people like you that keep me going.
I' still going to be performing on stage, doing my activism work and everything else this ugly manly, you forgot old, but Mimi or Jennifer Justice will eventually get that one in, but none of you ignorant haters is stoppin my flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-033.gif

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Thats what I do all the way to the bank!
Laugh at douchebags like you!
Clearly from your posts you are one of those guys who don't even get pussy in real life, so you come online and play tough, nobody's buying the e-pussy act!

Nothing but Keyboard Kourage on that guy. Lets see him post a pic of his ugly ass, I'm sure he hasn't got the balls. God knows I don't.

Be well Vanessa....

[beandip]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......

[blacktgirls]

some girls don't like to be refer to themselves as transsexuals as if it's a dirty word . some transsexuals who are on the shorter side think they look more like a woman than a taller transsexual. i don't think there is any such thing as " passable " with men who have any sort of awareness or sense of up from down . there are good looking women and ugly women but i never thought an ugly woman was a transsexual so just because you're a good looking transsexual does not mean you can "pass " as a woman .

[surfblue]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off

[kalina]

I just listened to this. It's a very powerful speech. You're AWESOME!

[eclipsemint]

While it is nice to look at photos of catwalk models and top celebrities, I would never actually expect to be with one of them.

The only way would be to pay thousands of dollars to spend a night with a top escort.

But models and celebrities represent only 0.1% of the mainstream population.

The expectations of Joe Citizen are lower.

What I am leading to is that a transgender girl would not have to be 100% passable for me to want to talk to her, spend time with her, have sex with her or have a relationship with her.

But she would have to have a certain amount of femininity or I wouldn't find her attractive in the first place. I wouldn't fall for a guy who likes to dress in drag, by comparison.

[kalina]

I just added this to my October 4 blog entry: "I've always thought Reina Valentino was a fabulous entertainer and her recent message about passability is a powerful, inspiring message filled with hope for all transsexuals." I added a link to your YouTube video, too.

[TsVanessa69]

I just added this to my October 4 blog entry: "I've always thought Reina Valentino was a fabulous entertainer and her recent message about passability is a powerful, inspiring message filled with hope for all transsexuals." I added a link to your YouTube video, too.Thank you doll!

[TsVanessa69]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!

[surfblue]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!
with what you and others have said to me, how is what i said even remotely bannable? double standards much?

[buckjohnson]

KALINA.
You are very passable.

[Random532]

dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off

Dude, you are a total cunt. I hope you die of something unpleasant.

To come onto topic, where I live in Europe, I quite often go for drinks and dinners etc with a few trans friends and until quite recently I didn't really even think too much about passable/non passable, I think I just assumed they all were. Well one day after I'd been over at one friend's house she had to go work at a bar in town afterwards so we walked to the tube together to grab the train. It was maybe 10ish pm on a Friday or Saturday. As we walked past a bar on the way to the station I heard a couple of guys very noticeably "whisper" something along the lines of "DUDE, THAT IS A MAN!". I felt really ashamed to be honest at first and then just upset. My friend didn't make any sign that she'd heard but when we got onto the tube she deliberately sat opposite rather than next to me and didn't give any sign to the tube that we were together, almost like she was trying to spare me the "embarrassment" or something. I was pretty quiet all the way to her stop, and when she got off I am ashamed to say I just gave her a wave rather than a big hug like I normally would have done. feel terrible now but I did feel embarrassed, although not the embarrassment that she felt, it was more embarrassed that she had to hear that and put up with it from people and a bit uncomfortable that we shared that nasty moment.

It's made me much more aware I must admit, I know actually do notice people looking at my friends and I sometimes catch myself wondering if that's what they are thinking. I liked it more when I just assumed no one ever knew anything haha.

Anyway, I guess what I mean to say is that I think passability is something that is quite a difficult topic. Those who are passable think it's not a big deal at all, because, guess what, they pass, so it's never a hassle for them. For those who can't always pass, it's probably a pretty major daily hassle and a big potential knock on the self-esteem.

Oh, also, it's late, but thanks for those great posts Zoe, real eye-openers. Good luck getting back to where you want to be, I'm sure you can.

[unctrld1]

dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off

Dude, you are a total cunt. I hope you die of something unpleasant.

To come onto topic, where I live in Europe, I quite often go for drinks and dinners etc with a few trans friends and until quite recently I didn't really even think too much about passable/non passable, I think I just assumed they all were. Well one day after I'd been over at one friend's house she had to go work at a bar in town afterwards so we walked to the tube together to grab the train. It was maybe 10ish pm on a Friday or Saturday. As we walked past a bar on the way to the station I heard a couple of guys very noticeably "whisper" something along the lines of "DUDE, THAT IS A MAN!". I felt really ashamed to be honest at first and then just upset. My friend didn't make any sign that she'd heard but when we got onto the tube she deliberately sat opposite rather than next to me and didn't give any sign to the tube that we were together, almost like she was trying to spare me the "embarrassment" or something. I was pretty quiet all the way to her stop, and when she got off I am ashamed to say I just gave her a wave rather than a big hug like I normally would have done. feel terrible now but I did feel embarrassed, although not the embarrassment that she felt, it was more embarrassed that she had to hear that and put up with it from people and a bit uncomfortable that we shared that nasty moment.

It's made me much more aware I must admit, I know actually do notice people looking at my friends and I sometimes catch myself wondering if that's what they are thinking. I liked it more when I just assumed no one ever knew anything haha.

Anyway, I guess what I mean to say is that I think passability is something that is quite a difficult topic. Those who are passable think it's not a big deal at all, because, guess what, they pass, so it's never a hassle for them. For those who can't always pass, it's probably a pretty major daily hassle and a big potential knock on the self-esteem.

Oh, also, it's late, but thanks for those great posts Zoe, real eye-openers. Good luck getting back to where you want to be, I'm sure you can.

Random, has your friend treated you differently since the incident? Was she disappointed in what happened in the tube?

[alyssats]

actually being passable and ultrafeminine also have lots of disadvantages

[TsVanessa69]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!
with what you and others have said to me, how is what i said even remotely bannable? double standards much?
Wanna try your luck with me?????
The ts of this site are taking back our site, its OUR safespace for ladies and those who ADMIRE us.
You are a douchebag aand I think you should be removed from here.
Soo I'm gonna do what I have to do!

[DL_NL]

Trolls aside, some of the replies in this thread are among the best I've ever read here. Zoe and Vanessa: respect for what you've accomplished and what you've been through.

You girls rule.

[TsVanessa69]

Trolls aside, some of the replies in this thread are among the best I've ever read here. Zoe and Vanessa: respect for what you've accomplished and what you've been through.

You girls rule.
Well its time to do some clean up around here!
Trolls and trash don't belong in a space ment for us to be who we are without being torn down. Clearly if we spoke up to the MODS, something I'm shure can be done about it.
Since the troll doesnt like me, it will be MY pleasure to have the troll OUTTA HERE!
I dont put up with this bullshit in the real world, its not gonna happen here!!!!!!

[TheGuard]

These last few months have radically changed my position on that.

I came out as trans at 16, fought with my parents for a couple years about it until I went off to university and transitioned at 19. I quickly went "stealth". I lived off-campus with different people for a while, I bounced around a lot. I had a personal policy of telling people I was trans if it looked like I was really going to get the room but that got harder and harder. So then I didn't tell a girl for a week after I moved in, the next girl I didn't tell for about 6 weeks and then I decided to just live on campus the next quarter and so I moved on campus, into the girls' dorms and I didn't tell the school (though you'd assume they would notice something in my records) and I didn't tell my roommates (it was a suite of 4 girls in 2 bedrooms). After that, I stopped telling people.

Later, it became known among my close friends, who I was living with for years, but I kept it within that circle -- even in the circle, some people knew and some people didn't, my friends were good at keeping my secret. I had minimum wage jobs and such and none of my coworkers or bosses knew and I never felt like I should tell them. I was out about being bisexual because I am, because that's how I live my life (I was dating another tgirl in an open relationship for a couple years) but I didn't feel like being trans was a direct part of my public identity (private identity and history, of course, but more like a skeleton in a closet).

Last summer, I was involved with a very good man who I adored. I would have married him if he would have asked me; he was gorgeous, sexy, sweet, sensitive and creative. He was also religious -- he was rediscovering his Catholic roots. I was living in a religious commune that was Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican with a focus on the Anglican part (we were involved in the local traditional Anglican parish) so even if I didn't always live like it, I was religious too. He eventually convinced me that I could never really get married, that it would always be this separate thing, like a homosexual union, even if the other person and I and society saw it as heterosexual (as was with our relationship) because metaphysically, I was still male.

This, coupled with our breaking up because he went back to school (he did visit once after that last November and we had sex but I haven't seen him since even though we still talk a lot), was devastating for me. I just wanted to have a "normal life" and get married and raise (adopted, of course) kids. I was just looking for Mr. Right and I guess I realized that, as Groucho Marx said he wouldn't join a club who would have him as a member, my ideal man wouldn't want me because it would be too important to him to raise a natural family and have a certain marriage to a bio-female. So where was my life leading?

In a couple months, I unraveled years of transition. I stopped taking hormones. I came out to everyone at work, telling them that I had been born male and was returning to that because it was the right thing to do. They didn't believe me but I pushed the issue, showed photos and such and I succeeded in eventually convincing everyone. I even finally was able to get the management to let me use the men's room, but it involved regional management. I moved across town and started going to the Catholic Church there where nobody had known me as a girl.

A couple days after the big transition at work, where the management told everybody to call me by a different name (not my given name, I was experimenting), I put in my two weeks' notice. I changed my name to my given name legally and flew off across the country to visit a traditional (Latin Mass) Catholic monastery for a month in retreat. I was hoping to make a totally new start. A girl even convinced me I would be more handsome if she cut my hair and so she shaved my head with a #4 razor (1/2").

But I was so depressed and when I looked in the mirror I didn't know who I was. I didn't see a future possibility of me marrying a woman and having that sort of relationship. I would still get kids, maybe even biological if that still works, and I could have my little house and garden and everything I wanted. I also explored the possibility of religious life, being a monk or a friar though I'm sure they'd be dubious about accepting me with my history.

So I flew back to my town but I spent the first week back very depressed and drinking every day. The week culminated with me going to the local gay bar and hooking a cute, intelligent straight-acting gay guy. This was the first time I'd ever really had a guy attracted to me as a guy. We screwed around for a few minutes at my house and I was trying to put that out of my mind but there was a big difference between a guy being into me as a girl and this guy being into me as a guy. I realized there was no way I could be a gay guy either, it's something different.

So after a couple days of being depressed about it, on Tuesday, I decided that I was for sure going back to being my old self. I haven't told my parents yet (they had accepted my transition finally but my dad was still very happy, as much as he ever expresses emotion, that I had become his only son again). I don't have any hair anymore (which was my pride) so I've been playing with hats and spiking it. I'm trying to use it to play with a punkier look than before. Mostly, I end up looking like a butch dyke but whatever, at least it's female.

So after years of statements like "passing isn't a privilege, it's the point" and all this other focus on men's attraction to me being used to support my self-esteem, I know that I have to transition for myself, whether or not I ever get married (or if it counts), whether or not I am attractive to men, whether or not everybody knows (because many people know now!), I have to transition. So where I was a stuck-up, bitchy, prideful tgirl, now I am a lot more humble. See, yes, I have almost 5 years of hormones behind me but in other respects I am just like anyone starting out transitioning at 24 with a male name, short hair, no clothes (I donated all mine except for a suitcase of simple cheap men's clothes) and no hormones (I just re-ordered them yesterday so hopefully today or Monday I will get them). I don't pass and I have to look for a new job. I even have to come out to my parents!

So that is what passing means to me -- it used to be my whole focus of transition, being passable and stealth. But take away my name, my clothes and shave my head and out me to everyone, and I understand a lot better the position of transsexuals who I used to mock and feel self-righteous towards (though I'm still not 40 with a wife and kids). I am a lot more sympathetic and humble. I used to say that I didn't remember why I transitioned, that I was a girl simply because I was one yesterday and the day before and I just get up and go to work and live my life. Well, now I know why I transitioned -- because there is no life for me as a man, it's far too depressing and lifeless and what was true for me as a teenager is still true, that without killing my male self and living as a female I would likely end up killing myself altogether (either actively or just through drinking).

I have been the one to say that if you can't pass, you shouldn't transition. While I still believe that people need to be realistic and know the realities of living a transitioned life, I realize how much of an impossibility it is for many people to continue living a male life. It doesn't matter to me if any man is attracted to me again, I'm not going to base my self-image on that. If I walk down the street and I look like a crossdresser, that's the reality. If I'm never going to be able to go stealth again (well, it would be hard in this town anyway), I will have to accept the reality that I am a transsexual woman.

When my parents found out I was on hormones, they threw me out (I was 19 and had already been at university a year but it was summer). It took a couple years of not seeing them before they were desperate enough to have me in their life even if I was a girl. But my mom said that I should be open about my trans status (especially with men) and not hide it from my friends. I thought she was ridiculous then, I was happy being a 22 year old girl without strings. But now I am 24 and maybe a bit wiser, especially after the craziness of the past few months. I don't see myself being a trans activist, but if I can accept my trans status without being ashamed of it (I was quite embarrassed by it) then I have grown up from this experience.

I am a trans woman, passable or not.

I just wanted to say, if for no other reason than to simply acknowledge it, that this is one of the most insightful posts I've ever come across on the internet.

[eclipsemint]

actually being passable and ultrafeminine also have lots of disadvantages

Don't leaving me hangin' Alyssa. How do you mean?

[TheGuard]

Probably that when the discussion of a wheen comes up the gents are genuinely surprised.

[surfblue]

dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off

Dude, you are a total cunt. I hope you die of something unpleasant.

To come onto topic, where I live in Europe, I quite often go for drinks and dinners etc with a few trans friends and until quite recently I didn't really even think too much about passable/non passable, I think I just assumed they all were. Well one day after I'd been over at one friend's house she had to go work at a bar in town afterwards so we walked to the tube together to grab the train. It was maybe 10ish pm on a Friday or Saturday. As we walked past a bar on the way to the station I heard a couple of guys very noticeably "whisper" something along the lines of "DUDE, THAT IS A MAN!". I felt really ashamed to be honest at first and then just upset. My friend didn't make any sign that she'd heard but when we got onto the tube she deliberately sat opposite rather than next to me and didn't give any sign to the tube that we were together, almost like she was trying to spare me the "embarrassment" or something. I was pretty quiet all the way to her stop, and when she got off I am ashamed to say I just gave her a wave rather than a big hug like I normally would have done. feel terrible now but I did feel embarrassed, although not the embarrassment that she felt, it was more embarrassed that she had to hear that and put up with it from people and a bit uncomfortable that we shared that nasty moment.

It's made me much more aware I must admit, I know actually do notice people looking at my friends and I sometimes catch myself wondering if that's what they are thinking. I liked it more when I just assumed no one ever knew anything haha.

Anyway, I guess what I mean to say is that I think passability is something that is quite a difficult topic. Those who are passable think it's not a big deal at all, because, guess what, they pass, so it's never a hassle for them. For those who can't always pass, it's probably a pretty major daily hassle and a big potential knock on the self-esteem.

Oh, also, it's late, but thanks for those great posts Zoe, real eye-openers. Good luck getting back to where you want to be, I'm sure you can.

hahaha that shit is funny as hell. not too long ago i saw this obvious crossdresser on campus and someone pointed at him and was like what the fuck is that thing! and then everyone just busted out laughing. im still cracking up thinking about it

seriously if you dont pass dont even fuckin try, and if you get your ass made fun of or kicked you deserve it. take the high road and dont be a god damn eyesore.

for most people if you try to rock their world, they will rock yours back. learn some common sense, these sob stories just dont cut it anymore

[surfblue]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!
with what you and others have said to me, how is what i said even remotely bannable? double standards much?
Wanna try your luck with me?????
The ts of this site are taking back our site, its OUR safespace for ladies and those who ADMIRE us.
You are a douchebag aand I think you should be removed from here.
Soo I'm gonna do what I have to do!
hahaha since when do you get special treatment? these guys have to understand that people like you dont give a shit about them. in fact most of you think they're perverted freaks. members shouldnt be required to kiss your ass just because you're a dude with long hair and implants.

and just as you're not afraid to speak your mind, some of you calling them "tranny chasers" and faggots, they shouldnt be afraid to speak their mind either. its called freedom of speech, the first amendment, ever heard of it

[trish]

How does someone deserve getting their ass kicked for not passing your aesthetic standards? Last I checked assault was a criminal offense.

[TsVanessa69]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!
with what you and others have said to me, how is what i said even remotely bannable? double standards much?
Wanna try your luck with me?????
The ts of this site are taking back our site, its OUR safespace for ladies and those who ADMIRE us.
You are a douchebag aand I think you should be removed from here.
Soo I'm gonna do what I have to do!
hahaha since when do you get special treatment? these guys have to understand that people like you dont give a shit about them. in fact most of you think they're perverted freaks. members shouldnt be required to kiss your ass just because you're a dude with long hair and implants.

and just as you're not afraid to speak your mind, some of you calling them "tranny chasers" and faggots, they shouldnt be afraid to speak their mind either. its called freedom of speech, the first amendment, ever heard of it
Obviously you don't know who I am.
Others have been banned, and I can do it again, TRUST me.
This site is for me and girls like me and men who admire and appreciate us.
Obviously you are in the WRONG place.
And on top of that I can guarentee you that I look better than any filthy piece of cunt nasty enough to let you put your dick in her.
Or maybe you don't get pussy or ass and you are frustrated.
Oh yea I can get pussy and ass, cuz I got it like that!

[surfblue]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!
with what you and others have said to me, how is what i said even remotely bannable? double standards much?
Wanna try your luck with me?????
The ts of this site are taking back our site, its OUR safespace for ladies and those who ADMIRE us.
You are a douchebag aand I think you should be removed from here.
Soo I'm gonna do what I have to do!
hahaha since when do you get special treatment? these guys have to understand that people like you dont give a shit about them. in fact most of you think they're perverted freaks. members shouldnt be required to kiss your ass just because you're a dude with long hair and implants.

and just as you're not afraid to speak your mind, some of you calling them "tranny chasers" and faggots, they shouldnt be afraid to speak their mind either. its called freedom of speech, the first amendment, ever heard of it
Obviously you don't know who I am.
Others have been banned, and I can do it again, TRUST me.
This site is for me and girls like me and men who admire and appreciate us.
Obviously you are in the WRONG place.
And on top of that I can guarentee you that I look better than any filthy piece of cunt nasty enough to let you put your dick in her.
Or maybe you don't get pussy or ass and you are frustrated.
Oh yea I can get pussy and ass, cuz I got it like that!
i just noticed your from chicago, were you one of those people crying when chicago got eliminated in first round of the olympic voting?

hahaha that was so funny!

[surfblue]

How does someone deserve getting their ass kicked for not passing your aesthetic standards? Last I checked assault was a criminal offense.
yeah i was just fuckin around. i didnt really mean that.

but i can be civil. although even when im trying to be some asshole will still diss me or make smart ass comments so what do you expect me to but to snap back at them

im not talking about this particular thread but ive gottentons of shit in others when i wasnt even talking shit so i figured what the hell why not just go all out

[surfblue]

And on top of that I can guarentee you that I look better than any filthy piece of cunt nasty enough to let you put your dick in her.
Or maybe you don't get pussy or ass and you are frustrated.
Oh yea I can get pussy and ass, cuz I got it like that!

haha keep telling yourself that

[giovanni_hotel]

I don't know what you're doing wrong, surfblue, but somehow you manage to make the best girls on this site wanna go postal on your azz!!LOL

[Random532]

Random, has your friend treated you differently since the incident? Was she disappointed in what happened in the tube?

She hasn't mentioned it and to be honest we've only seen each other a couple of times and I haven't remembered to ask her about it. She certainly hasn't dealt with me differently because of it, but I'm wondering if she is just totally oblivious to that sort of stuff or forces herself to totally ignore it.

If she just phases it out somehow I'm not sure that I do her a favour in any way by bringing it up again... so who knows.

[Beaner]

These last few months have radically changed my position on that.

I came out as trans at 16, fought with my parents for a couple years about it until I went off to university and transitioned at 19. I quickly went "stealth". I lived off-campus with different people for a while, I bounced around a lot. I had a personal policy of telling people I was trans if it looked like I was really going to get the room but that got harder and harder. So then I didn't tell a girl for a week after I moved in, the next girl I didn't tell for about 6 weeks and then I decided to just live on campus the next quarter and so I moved on campus, into the girls' dorms and I didn't tell the school (though you'd assume they would notice something in my records) and I didn't tell my roommates (it was a suite of 4 girls in 2 bedrooms). After that, I stopped telling people.

Later, it became known among my close friends, who I was living with for years, but I kept it within that circle -- even in the circle, some people knew and some people didn't, my friends were good at keeping my secret. I had minimum wage jobs and such and none of my coworkers or bosses knew and I never felt like I should tell them. I was out about being bisexual because I am, because that's how I live my life (I was dating another tgirl in an open relationship for a couple years) but I didn't feel like being trans was a direct part of my public identity (private identity and history, of course, but more like a skeleton in a closet).

Last summer, I was involved with a very good man who I adored. I would have married him if he would have asked me; he was gorgeous, sexy, sweet, sensitive and creative. He was also religious -- he was rediscovering his Catholic roots. I was living in a religious commune that was Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican with a focus on the Anglican part (we were involved in the local traditional Anglican parish) so even if I didn't always live like it, I was religious too. He eventually convinced me that I could never really get married, that it would always be this separate thing, like a homosexual union, even if the other person and I and society saw it as heterosexual (as was with our relationship) because metaphysically, I was still male.

This, coupled with our breaking up because he went back to school (he did visit once after that last November and we had sex but I haven't seen him since even though we still talk a lot), was devastating for me. I just wanted to have a "normal life" and get married and raise (adopted, of course) kids. I was just looking for Mr. Right and I guess I realized that, as Groucho Marx said he wouldn't join a club who would have him as a member, my ideal man wouldn't want me because it would be too important to him to raise a natural family and have a certain marriage to a bio-female. So where was my life leading?

In a couple months, I unraveled years of transition. I stopped taking hormones. I came out to everyone at work, telling them that I had been born male and was returning to that because it was the right thing to do. They didn't believe me but I pushed the issue, showed photos and such and I succeeded in eventually convincing everyone. I even finally was able to get the management to let me use the men's room, but it involved regional management. I moved across town and started going to the Catholic Church there where nobody had known me as a girl.

A couple days after the big transition at work, where the management told everybody to call me by a different name (not my given name, I was experimenting), I put in my two weeks' notice. I changed my name to my given name legally and flew off across the country to visit a traditional (Latin Mass) Catholic monastery for a month in retreat. I was hoping to make a totally new start. A girl even convinced me I would be more handsome if she cut my hair and so she shaved my head with a #4 razor (1/2").

But I was so depressed and when I looked in the mirror I didn't know who I was. I didn't see a future possibility of me marrying a woman and having that sort of relationship. I would still get kids, maybe even biological if that still works, and I could have my little house and garden and everything I wanted. I also explored the possibility of religious life, being a monk or a friar though I'm sure they'd be dubious about accepting me with my history.

So I flew back to my town but I spent the first week back very depressed and drinking every day. The week culminated with me going to the local gay bar and hooking a cute, intelligent straight-acting gay guy. This was the first time I'd ever really had a guy attracted to me as a guy. We screwed around for a few minutes at my house and I was trying to put that out of my mind but there was a big difference between a guy being into me as a girl and this guy being into me as a guy. I realized there was no way I could be a gay guy either, it's something different.

So after a couple days of being depressed about it, on Tuesday, I decided that I was for sure going back to being my old self. I haven't told my parents yet (they had accepted my transition finally but my dad was still very happy, as much as he ever expresses emotion, that I had become his only son again). I don't have any hair anymore (which was my pride) so I've been playing with hats and spiking it. I'm trying to use it to play with a punkier look than before. Mostly, I end up looking like a butch dyke but whatever, at least it's female.

So after years of statements like "passing isn't a privilege, it's the point" and all this other focus on men's attraction to me being used to support my self-esteem, I know that I have to transition for myself, whether or not I ever get married (or if it counts), whether or not I am attractive to men, whether or not everybody knows (because many people know now!), I have to transition. So where I was a stuck-up, bitchy, prideful tgirl, now I am a lot more humble. See, yes, I have almost 5 years of hormones behind me but in other respects I am just like anyone starting out transitioning at 24 with a male name, short hair, no clothes (I donated all mine except for a suitcase of simple cheap men's clothes) and no hormones (I just re-ordered them yesterday so hopefully today or Monday I will get them). I don't pass and I have to look for a new job. I even have to come out to my parents!

So that is what passing means to me -- it used to be my whole focus of transition, being passable and stealth. But take away my name, my clothes and shave my head and out me to everyone, and I understand a lot better the position of transsexuals who I used to mock and feel self-righteous towards (though I'm still not 40 with a wife and kids). I am a lot more sympathetic and humble. I used to say that I didn't remember why I transitioned, that I was a girl simply because I was one yesterday and the day before and I just get up and go to work and live my life. Well, now I know why I transitioned -- because there is no life for me as a man, it's far too depressing and lifeless and what was true for me as a teenager is still true, that without killing my male self and living as a female I would likely end up killing myself altogether (either actively or just through drinking).

I have been the one to say that if you can't pass, you shouldn't transition. While I still believe that people need to be realistic and know the realities of living a transitioned life, I realize how much of an impossibility it is for many people to continue living a male life. It doesn't matter to me if any man is attracted to me again, I'm not going to base my self-image on that. If I walk down the street and I look like a crossdresser, that's the reality. If I'm never going to be able to go stealth again (well, it would be hard in this town anyway), I will have to accept the reality that I am a transsexual woman.

When my parents found out I was on hormones, they threw me out (I was 19 and had already been at university a year but it was summer). It took a couple years of not seeing them before they were desperate enough to have me in their life even if I was a girl. But my mom said that I should be open about my trans status (especially with men) and not hide it from my friends. I thought she was ridiculous then, I was happy being a 22 year old girl without strings. But now I am 24 and maybe a bit wiser, especially after the craziness of the past few months. I don't see myself being a trans activist, but if I can accept my trans status without being ashamed of it (I was quite embarrassed by it) then I have grown up from this experience.

I am a trans woman, passable or not.

great story Zoe i hope things are better for you now

[phobun]

Thank you guys.

Part of a homily from my priest had to do with pre-marital counseling for couples. People often know they're physically attracted to their fiancees and if they're virgins, having sex available and encouraged and celebrated instead of condemned and disdained, it's exciting. But people don't stay pretty on the outside forever. You have to fall in love with who the person is on the inside, that you'll still have a happy relationship when you're 70 and not out watching 25 year old hotties.

When you're 18-25, you're in this prime of trying to make yourself attractive to members of the opposite sex and being trendy and all that mess. I'm nearing my 25th birthday in a couple months and I've spent that time period living as a woman, living it up in many ways (though I'm not like these New York girls, I live in a much smaller town). Now I'm really feeling the pressure to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life, I don't want to be out hitting the clubs every weekend in 10 years (not that I do now, I usually just chill with friends at home). I need to grow up at some point.

Every person has to come to this point, where they have to work on themselves and do what is important to them. The Church says that I can't get married and maybe I won't. But either way, I need to have a sense of myself outside of my relationships with men. I have my own interests, my own hobbies, my own personality that have nothing to do with my transsexuality or with men. If I do end up getting married, I still need to be a whole person, otherwise there are going to be problems in that sort of relationship if I don't know who I am.

Passing is a focus because it allows us to focus on things other than our transsexuality. Because otherwise people will make it a focus when it really should just be a means to an end, not an end in itself. The end should be loving other people and (I know there are a lot of atheists here but anyway) God. It's those relationships which matter and you can't build those with plastic surgery or designer clothes.

If transitioning improves your mental state, if it helps you be a better friend and a better member of your family, if it helps you to be a more productive member of society and help people, then you should transition. If you are just going to get more and more wrapped up in your own mess and become a self-centered bitch, then why bother?

Jesus said that those who lose their lives will save them. The only way to help yourself is to help other people. If you're planted in the soil of humanity, you will thrive but if you are uprooted and separate, you'll just rot. The happiest people are those who don't focus on their own happiness. I am who I am, now what can I do to make the world a better place and be a better friend, a better child/sibling(/spouse/parent)? We can't just say, "I'll do some good like volunteering or whatever, once I'm retired" or "I'll give away my money if I win the lottery", we have to work with what we have right now, where we are right now.

It sounds like Vanessa has found her place in helping trans people in some sort of support center. That's great! Other people find their place in having quiet married lives and raising healthy children. We just need to figure out where we can do the most good and do it. People say that transition is selfish but I said it five years ago and I realized that it's still true that if I do not transition, I will be no good to anyone.

Someone can be the most passable, physically beautiful, deep stealth transsexual and still be a self-centered bitch. Another can be a total tranny trainwreck and be a really amazing, loving person. I'd much rather be the latter. People focus on passing but all that means is that now you're at the same level with 3 billion other people on the planet who were born female. Now you actually have to do something.

Take care everyone!
Good points. You sound like a well-adjusted woman with a good outlook. I thought you were an Anglican? The CoE seems a bit more tolerant towards transsexuals and I'll wager that "The Church" is not doing you any favors. Who cares what the Pope says about marriage, he's just one infallible man.

[bat1]

Vanessa, don't berate yourself. You are far from ugly......
dont kid yourself IT is fuckin ugly as hell

if ur that ugly the least u could do is not inconvenience people by showing ur ugly face on a forum where ppl are tryin to jack off
Somebody is looking to be banned from here real soon!
with what you and others have said to me, how is what i said even remotely bannable? double standards much?
Wanna try your luck with me?????
The ts of this site are taking back our site, its OUR safespace for ladies and those who ADMIRE us.
You are a douchebag aand I think you should be removed from here.
Soo I'm gonna do what I have to do!
hahaha since when do you get special treatment? these guys have to understand that people like you dont give a shit about them. in fact most of you think they're perverted freaks. members shouldnt be required to kiss your ass just because you're a dude with long hair and implants.

and just as you're not afraid to speak your mind, some of you calling them "tranny chasers" and faggots, they shouldnt be afraid to speak their mind either. its called freedom of speech, the first amendment, ever heard of it
Obviously you don't know who I am.
Others have been banned, and I can do it again, TRUST me.
This site is for me and girls like me and men who admire and appreciate us.
Obviously you are in the WRONG place.
And on top of that I can guarentee you that I look better than any filthy piece of cunt nasty enough to let you put your dick in her.
Or maybe you don't get pussy or ass and you are frustrated.
Oh yea I can get pussy and ass, cuz I got it like that!


She looks HOT to me :jerkoff

[clevelandswabbie]

hey...the girl @ BTG #68...looks like somebody i'd like to meet...real people have faces...pretty faces.

i'll put Vanessa on my bucket list, i think...

[RallyCola]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/028/439/15209d1247204376-indian-army-vs-american-army-holy_necroposting_batman.jpg

[jwarren2005]

When I first discovered ts girls, i was attacted mainly to very passable girls (Sasha Hevyn was must first crush). I was just blow away by the mind bender that was such a beautiful sexy girl could have cock. But like everything, your tastes evolve. Big fan of Brazil TS girls, look at Ariadny Oliver, i would describe her as passable really at all but she's just as hot. Pretty face, beautiful feminine soft skin and curves. Like GG's, they come in all types and sizes.

[Lester316]

Thread has been revived from the dead it seems....

Personally I think the whole passable/not passable thing is decidedly superficial and insensitive as a topic. My point of view is it's all about attraction - not just looks - but who a person is and the things they say, do and believe in. Someone could be totally stunning but if they are an asshat I'll never find them attractive.