PDA

View Full Version : Why Don't We Globalize Health Care?



Ben
08-06-2009, 01:17 AM
Why Don't We Globalize Health Care?

By DEAN BAKER

With the rising cost of healthcare now atop the national agenda, one theme rings like a frustrating refrain: healthcare is special, so the tools we use to fix normal economic problems don’t apply. What good is mass production in confronting the complexities of the body? How can cost-benefit analysis grasp the unfixable value of a human life?

There is at least one tenet of modern economic policy, however, that we are excluding from the healthcare debate at our peril: globalization.

It may seem bizarre to suggest that globalization could somehow improve healthcare. After all, the practice of medicine is not only deeply individual, but tightly tied to time and place. Apart from possibly buying drugs from Canada, most people have probably never given any thought to the idea that globalization could have a meaningful impact on healthcare in the United States. But globalization, carefully applied, could reduce costs in the short term and create pressure for the bigger changes our system desperately needs.

There are clear ways to take advantage of lower costs in other countries, making our own system more affordable without diminishing the quality. We could allow more foreign-born doctors to work in the United States, for instance. We could encourage the “medical tourism” that allows Americans to have major procedures performed in other countries, and we could permit Medicare beneficiaries to buy into the lower-cost healthcare systems of other wealthy countries.

Each of these offers enormous opportunities for savings in the healthcare sector and benefits for the economy. They don’t need to be exploitive - we can structure any new arrangements to ensure that our trading partners benefit as well. This is especially important in the case of developing countries: we cannot let healthcare savings for the United States come at the expense of reduced access to care for people in the developing world.

It will not be easy to globalize healthcare. The interest groups that oppose government cost-containment measures will be just as vigorous in their objections to increased international competition, if the result is to reduce their income. There are also real problems in ensuring quality control. But if we get it right, a globalized healthcare system would not only lower costs, but could even bring health benefits. Canada, Germany, France, and the United Kingdom all pay roughly half as much per person for their healthcare as the United States, yet all these countries enjoy longer life expectancies than ours. This implies that there are enormous potential gains to the US economy, and to American patients, in opening up this sector to the world.

The economic idea driving globalization is simple: that the United States - and the world - gain when goods and services are produced in the country that can provide the best quality at the lowest price. Just as we benefit from allowing goods and services to flow freely over the border between Pennsylvania and New York, we also benefit from allowing them to flow across international borders.

The reality of globalization is often less beneficent than the textbook picture. It has reduced wages for a large segment of the US workforce; it has often meant dreadful working conditions and environmental degradation in the developing world. Nonetheless, there are real gains: we pay far less for our clothes, our cars, our computer service calls than if the United States was a closed economy. Costs go down, and our standard of living, on balance, goes up.

Globalization has been conspicuously missing in healthcare policy debates, however. Even the economists who normally push a free-trade agenda have been silent, largely because there has been a tendency to conceive of healthcare narrowly as a domestic issue. There is some logic to this narrow view: in a healthcare emergency, we need immediate treatment, not assistance from someone halfway around the world. Nonetheless, there are some obvious and important ways in which the healthcare sector can benefit from increased globalization.

The first route is through opening the door wider to medical professionals from other countries. Doctors in the United States, especially highly trained specialists, earn far more than their counterparts in Western Europe or Canada, at least in part because it is very difficult for doctors - even those who meet our high standards - to train in other countries and then work in the United States. There has been little effort to coordinate medical licensing standards so that well-trained doctors elsewhere can practice here. In economic terms, this is a form of protectionism, just as arbitrary as restrictions on imported shoes or clothes. Trade policy over the last three decades has worked to dismantle the barriers to imported goods, but largely ignored the barriers that obstruct the entry of qualified doctors.

What if, however, the government sought to remove the licensing barriers for foreign physicians? Compensation in the most highly paid medical specialties averages far above $250,000 a year (even after paying malpractice fees). Many doctors trained outside the United States would find these positions attractive even if they only paid $100,000 a year. Opening medical practice to foreign competition would allow for the same sorts of gains from trade that we have seen with opening trade in apparel and textiles - except that we spend far more on doctors each year than we do on clothes.

To allow hospitals to hire well-trained doctors from Mexico, India, and other developing countries, the government would need to eliminate certain protectionist barriers, such as the requirement that an employer first try to hire a US citizen or green card holder at the current market rate. The next step would be drafting international training and licensing standards; doctors could be tested in their home countries, by US-certified testers. Those who do would have the same access to a healthcare job in the United States as a US citizen. A kid growing up in Mexico City or Beijing would have as much opportunity to work as a neurosurgeon in the United States as a kid growing up in Long Island.

To compensate for the inevitable brain drain from developing countries, we could impose a modest tax on the gross income of foreign-trained doctors in the United States for their home countries to spend on training doctors who stay. A 10 percent tax on one US-based doctor’s salary would almost certainly support the training of two doctors in most developing countries, and ensure that countries sending doctors to the US would also see an improvement in the quality of care at home.

The next important way to gain from globalization is to move some procedures overseas. Today this practice goes by the slightly pejorative term “medical tourism,” but behind that nickname is an important and growing trend that can offer real benefits.

Facilities in developing countries such as Thailand and India can perform many major medical procedures for a fraction of the cost in the United States. These facilities are set up to meet Western standards of care; in many cases they are equipped with the most modern medical equipment. For some medical procedures, the savings over an American procedure can easily cover the cost of airfare and hotel bills for the patient and several family members. Today, between 60,000 and 85,000 people cross international borders each year for medical procedures, according to consulting firm McKinsey & Co., and the number is growing. But its growth, and the potential gains, are limited by the lack of adequate government oversight.

If US policymakers embraced rather than ignored medical tourism, the government could create a process for certifying facilities in other countries to ensure the quality of care. It could also establish guidelines for malpractice liability; insurance companies could contract with facilities in the developing world and offer large discounts to patients who opt to travel for major procedures. (Some insurance companies have already begun offering such options.) To ensure that the host countries also benefit, the US government can insist that developing countries impose taxes on medical tourism, and use the proceeds to improve their own healthcare systems.

The third way that globalization can help healthcare is by allowing Medicare beneficiaries to buy into national health systems overseas. Currently, tens of millions of current or future Medicare beneficiaries have close family or emotional ties to countries with more efficient healthcare systems, and in many cases may want to retire to these countries. However, at present their Medicare benefits are of no use outside of the United States. Medicare beneficiaries moving to a foreign country are left to make healthcare arrangements for themselves, or return to America for any expensive procedure.

What if Medicare benefits could cross borders instead? With portable healthcare, Americans might feel more liberated to retire abroad, enjoying comfortable lives in lower-cost countries and generating enormous savings for the US government. The cost of healthcare abroad is so much lower that the U.S. government could even offer a premium to participating countries - say, 10 percent above that nation’s per-person healthcare costs. Medicare beneficiaries and the US government could split the remaining savings, which would still be substantial. For example, a beneficiary moving to the Netherlands or the United Kingdom in 2010 could expect to pocket close to $2,000 a year just from their share of the savings, a nice supplement to retirement benefits. That amount will only grow over time.

Having a large segment of our retired population living overseas may not be desirable in the long term, but it is almost certainly better than letting their runaway healthcare costs wreck our economy.

There will be many objections to increased globalization of healthcare. Some people may object to being treated by immigrant doctors, no matter how highly qualified they may be. And the thought of people flying around the world for major surgery is somewhat offensive on its face - if you need healthcare, you’d like to think that you could get it near where you live. The AMA and the other interest groups will object just as strongly to potential income losses due to globalization as they do to potential income losses due to President Obama’s healthcare plan.

To counter this opposition, we need stronger voices among the experts. It would be helpful if my fellow economists would act like economists on this issue and start singing the praises of globalization. If economists denounced the doctors and others demanding special protections in the same way they denounced autoworkers seeking such protections, it would go a long way toward moving the debate forward.

The goal of globalizing healthcare, of course, is not to send Americans around the world in search of healthcare. Our real goal should be to fix the US system to provide quality at a reasonable price. Globalization is best seen as a stopgap measure: a way to save money by taking advantage of more efficient foreign healthcare systems, while providing incentives for retooling our own.

If it works, it could increase the pressure for reform by making the inefficiencies of the US system more apparent. It could also put much-needed downward pressure on prices in the United States. If the gap between the cost of major medical procedures performed in America and other countries continues to grow, fewer people might have those procedures performed here. Highly paid medical specialists will either accept lower fees or go with much less work. The same logic will apply to other high-cost areas of the system.

Globalization offers enormous opportunities: it allows Americans to escape a broken healthcare system and generates new pressures to fix it. If done right, our trading partners will benefit as well. This may be a circuitous route to a system that provides high quality care for everyone, but it may also be the only route.

Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR). He is the author of Plunder and Blunder: The Rise and Fall of the Bubble Economy.

Silcc69
08-06-2009, 01:24 AM
There are clear ways to take advantage of lower costs in other countries, making our own system more affordable without diminishing the quality. We could allow more foreign-born doctors to work in the United States, for instance. We could encourage the “medical tourism” that allows Americans to have major procedures performed in other countries, and we could permit Medicare beneficiaries to buy into the lower-cost healthcare systems of other wealthy countries.

NO!

Alyssa87
08-06-2009, 01:59 AM
i love this article

Dean Baker is one of my favorites on the Huff Post.

Magnanimity really isnt part of the human condition though, is it?
This will not happen.

Americans that have healthcare dont want to pay into a plan that covers poor Americans, let alone poor Africans. God forbid!



Much of the right hates the UN and many socialized nations even more than they do the American left.
How could this ever get passed?

Andrew Johnson
08-06-2009, 02:45 AM
I'm on the right, and not fond of the UN or any socialized nation. I think global health care is a bad idea too!

Here in the US the government is way too damned big as it is, and always dipping it's hands into the tax payer's pockets to pay for some foolish thing or another as it is.....How much are they going to have to tax me to pay for some poor african to have health care? WTF!

No thank you. Don't globalize it, don't nationalize it....stay away from socialism!

Silcc69
08-06-2009, 02:48 AM
I'm on the right, and not fond of the UN or any socialized nation. I think global health care is a bad idea too!

Here in the US the government is way too damned big as it is, and always dipping it's hands into the tax payer's pockets to pay for some foolish thing or another as it is.....How much are they going to have to tax me to pay for some poor african to have health care? WTF!

No thank you. Don't globalize it, don't nationalize it....stay away from socialism!

Why on earth does it have to be Africa?

Andrew Johnson
08-06-2009, 02:50 AM
I'm on the right, and not fond of the UN or any socialized nation. I think global health care is a bad idea too!

Here in the US the government is way too damned big as it is, and always dipping it's hands into the tax payer's pockets to pay for some foolish thing or another as it is.....How much are they going to have to tax me to pay for some poor african to have health care? WTF!

No thank you. Don't globalize it, don't nationalize it....stay away from socialism!

Why on earth does it have to be Africa?

It was in reference to Alyssa's statement. I don't really care where it is, I don't want to pay!

tg4me
08-06-2009, 03:08 AM
+1
no socialism

Nowhere
08-06-2009, 03:28 AM
Ok, someone's on crack, considering that a large part of the world lives on under a dollar a day. I suppose they'll be able to pay their share of it, in say, 10,000 years. Did this guy even pass high school algebra?

But, if you want a way to set the entire planet into poverty, having everyone lose, this is definitely how to do it...

trish
08-06-2009, 03:42 AM
Yes, yes, it's much better to live high on the backs of others who only make a subsistence living. If the poor need bandages, let them use silk scarves. Humane behavior is socialistic behavior and I won't have it. Why, because I on the right.

JamesHunt
08-06-2009, 03:47 AM
+1
no socialism

One of the most despicable things I find about the human race is drug companies. These are the lowest of the low. Selling drugs for profit, when they only cost a few cents to manufacture.

I know there has to be financial incentive to motivate people to research these drugs and all that.

But I still find the whole situation creepy.

phobun
08-06-2009, 04:23 AM
SRS is effectively already globalized for Americans.

trish
08-06-2009, 04:32 AM
I agree with the gist of your post James, but I do take exception to this

I know there has to be financial incentive to motivate people to research these drugs and all that.


There are plenty of researchers at State Universities and medical schools who for a reasonable salary are fully motivated by the desire to learn and to help. Health for profit is an obscenity. Just a few short decades ago, when the U.S. actually did have a descent health care system, hospitals were non-profit and doctors took the Hippocratic Oath seriously. A recent Gallup poll shows 70% of Canadians are happy with their health care system and similarly for the British. 90% of the French are happy with theirs. Single payer has been shown to work in western cultures like ours over and over again. What does work, is the U.S. system. 40% of U.S. citizens are happy with their health care. Many complain that they thought they were adequately covered but when they needed their coverage it wasn't there. Many complain there is no choice under the current system...if you don't opt for the insurance your employer provides you can't afford another. More and more employers can't provide insurance. Many people are losing their employment and along with it their insurance. U.S. citizens are way down on the list of expected longevity. We have one of the highest newborn mortality rates among the developed nations. We have great schools. People come from all over the world to study medicene and science here. We have the knowledge. But we don't have the political will to use it to help our own citizens, and that too is obscene.

2009AD
08-06-2009, 04:33 AM
Why Don't We Globalize Health Care?

By DEAN BAKER

Today, between 60,000 and 85,000 people cross international borders each year for medical procedures, according to consulting firm McKinsey & Co., and the number is growing. But its growth, and the potential gains, are limited by the lack of adequate government oversight.

Health care is already globalized. Oh wait, it's not globalization he wants, it's GOVERNMENT control. Got it.

JerseyMike
08-06-2009, 04:39 AM
I'm all for Globalize Health Care, then we could get rid of the undesirable people such as those with mental handicaps that drain on the health care system. More abortions for those that want them, too many annoying kids around anyway that get fat and suck on the government tit. Yay to government mandated abortions, it worked before. Also get rid of all those people over 70 who cost the health care system so much money. After all that is done then we may have excellent health care, but we have to also make sure that we are able to sue those evil doctors either for not doing enough tests, doing too many, or just being over burdened with too many patients to take care of at one time. Actually if we just all sued the doctors then we could all be rich and not worry about health care. Yeah that's that ticket.

trish
08-06-2009, 05:02 AM
I'm all for Globalize Health Care, then we could get rid of the undesirable people such as those with mental handicaps that drain on the health care system.


This is exactly what private health care does. People born with mental handicaps can’t get coverage. People who are mentally handicapped by an accident or a disease have their coverage dropped. No coverage, no care. No care, and they’re effectively eliminated. Private health insurance companies make profits by only insuring the healthy, dropping the sick, minimizing care and when possible refusing care. Think about it, how else can a private company make a profit in the health care business.

underdog6
08-06-2009, 05:15 AM
i love this article

Dean Baker is one of my favorites on the Huff Post.

Magnanimity really isnt part of the human condition though, is it?
This will not happen.

Americans that have healthcare dont want to pay into a plan that covers poor Americans, let alone poor Africans. God forbid!



Much of the right hates the UN and many socialized nations even more than they do the American left.
How could this ever get passed?

God fobid they pay for thier own heatlhcare. No wait! Then how will they afford the 20 inch rims! OHHHHH The POOR africans!

Beagle
08-06-2009, 05:17 AM
+1
no socialism

One of the most despicable things I find about the human race is drug companies. These are the lowest of the low. Selling drugs for profit, when they only cost a few cents to manufacture.

I know there has to be financial incentive to motivate people to research these drugs and all that.

But I still find the whole situation creepy.


what i find creepy is the profound lack of understanding on how drugs are produced.

the cost of manufacturing the actual drug is a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall cost. probably way less than 5%.

the total cost includes paying brilliant scientists to research for decades various compounds. The vast percentage of these compounds don't work. Then when these guys finally do find something that might work they have to test the shit out of it for years and years. Then they have to conform with loads of govt red tape.

When and if the drug finally goes to market there's only a limited time for the company to make a profit. Of course, in today's anti-business anti-corporation climate I realize PROFIT is a bad word.

So, James are you willing to work for no profit?

Then there's the risk of lawsuits. Drug companies have to keep cash on-hand to handle the various lawsuits, which most are frivolous and some are legit. And what is really creepy is the incestuous relationship between the Democrats and esp Obama with the trial lawyers. These ambulance chasers are the real creeps. Just look in your Yellow Pages under Lawyer and you'll get the idea where all the malpractice insurance dollars go.

You're not going to see any serious health care cost cutting until there is meaningful tort reform and that's something Obama will never ever endorse.

So, answer me this...

If the profit motive is removed from drug manufacturing, where is the incentive for companies and really smart people (i.e. entrepreneurs) to take the risk and effort to invent new compounds and drugs?

I sometimes have to shake my head at things people believe.

There's not a single thing our government does well or efficiently. Not ONE. And some want them to run all our health care. Shit, they're not even able to manage a Cash-for-Clunkers giveaway program, let alone your health care.

Alyssa87
08-06-2009, 05:44 AM
i love this article

Dean Baker is one of my favorites on the Huff Post.

Magnanimity really isnt part of the human condition though, is it?
This will not happen.

Americans that have healthcare dont want to pay into a plan that covers poor Americans, let alone poor Africans. God forbid!



Much of the right hates the UN and many socialized nations even more than they do the American left.
How could this ever get passed?

God fobid they pay for thier own heatlhcare. No wait! Then how will they afford the 20 inch rims! OHHHHH The POOR africans!

i doubt poor people in africa have rims, or cars, or much of anything.
Just the bad fortune of being born in their time and place and culture.

they have no healthcare to speak of. and it shows.
its very sad.

JamesHunt
08-06-2009, 06:07 AM
So, James are you willing to work for no profit?



I have morals. Give me the choice between thousands of people dying and my new shiny yacht, I'd commit suicide

Silcc69
08-06-2009, 06:38 AM
Ya'll know it's Kill or be Killed here and Only the Strong Survive. Kindness is a weakness for fools!

JerseyMike
08-06-2009, 06:38 AM
Africans actually had health care during the revolutions of the 1960s when the former colonies of Europe threw off their yokes of oppression and decided that Socialism was the way to go. Forty years into the future and all those countries are bankrupt due to their over extension of services to the people. Then of course those revolutionary socialist governments have turned into governments afraid of change so they dug themselves in getting rid of any opposition against corrupt rule by the few where the agents of the governments get everything and the people get none. Due to this distrust of government when the government now tries to help the people in terms of health care especially in terms of explaining how AIDS is transmitted they don't believe the crooks thus making the health care problem worse for the whole continent. Note: North Africa doesn't really count in this post since their Islamic traditions have actually held governments and populace together.

trish
08-06-2009, 06:50 AM
Ya'll know it's Kill or be Killed here and Only the Strong Survive. Kindness is a weakness for fools!

Ya know it’s ban together or die alone. There’s not one single human being who ever lived on this planet who didn’t owe his existence and survival to others of his kind. We are a social animal. When there’s danger, fire, or simply work to be done, human beings have a long tradition of facing it together. Kindness is a virtue. Greed and selfishness are character flaws.

JamesHunt
08-06-2009, 06:53 AM
...

MacShreach
08-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Yes, yes, it's much better to live high on the backs of others who only make a subsistence living. If the poor need bandages, let them use silk scarves. Humane behavior is socialistic behavior and I won't have it. Why, because I on the right.

As usual, Trish, I agree with you. However, "globalisation" implies reciprocity--ie, if US citizens can go elsewhere, everyone else can go to the US. That means that trade barriers and restrictive practises would have to end.

I think that were the world to develop a level playing-field in health care, this would have many benefits and undoubtedly a reduction in costs in some territories. However to do this, all protectionist policies in the US would have to be abolished so that the cost of health care provision floated naturally to a point that was competitive with the same provision elsewhere; this would mean US professionals, ultimately, paying themselves a lot less. When this sort of thing happened in the steel industry, a lot of Americans lost their jobs. Medical professionals are just another category of worker and the inevitable result of true globalisation would be a reduction in the amount of money available to pay US medical professionals. Funnily enough, I can't see them liking that idea.

As well as that, in general, in Europe anyway (which the writer of the article referred to), States have not developed their health-care systems on a commercial model. Therefore the level of provision is not normally greater than is required by the domestic population; there might be a little spare capacity, but not enough to service the widespread needs of US citizens. So while, for example, the French might be happy to take up some slack by selling surgery to Americans when things are quiet, the instant that it even appeared that those US patients were getting care in preference to the French, who have paid for the system out of taxation all their lives, because the US patient was able to afford to pay more for the procedure as a result of NOT having had to pay tax to develop a universal healthcare system, then I can guarantee riots and political catastrophe and an abrupt end to the practise; this would be the same anywhere.

The issue is not as simple as buying computer-chips and we can be pretty certain that until the US has in place such a universal health-care system, the political difficulties of allowing those US citizens, who can afford to pay, large-scale access to European healthcare systems mean that it just is not going to happen.

This situation, clearly, may be different in other parts of the world, but the author did mention European countries specifically, and it is clear that he has not fully thought through the ramifications.

Those two are my only objections to the idea, but they do seem pretty major.

Silcc69
08-06-2009, 02:42 PM
Ya'll know it's Kill or be Killed here and Only the Strong Survive. Kindness is a weakness for fools!

Ya know it’s ban together or die alone. There’s not one single human being who ever lived on this planet who didn’t owe his existence and survival to others of his kind. We are a social animal. When there’s danger, fire, or simply work to be done, human beings have a long tradition of facing it together. Kindness is a virtue. Greed and selfishness are character flaws.

My comment was a heavy dosage of sarcasm. :D

Nowhere
08-06-2009, 02:50 PM
Ya'll know it's Kill or be Killed here and Only the Strong Survive. Kindness is a weakness for fools!

Ya know it’s ban together or die alone. There’s not one single human being who ever lived on this planet who didn’t owe his existence and survival to others of his kind. We are a social animal. When there’s danger, fire, or simply work to be done, human beings have a long tradition of facing it together. Kindness is a virtue. Greed and selfishness are character flaws.

We are tribal NOT one big happy family. You're brazenly ignoring that.

What you're saying is true on a micro, NOT macro level...

Faldur
08-06-2009, 02:56 PM
So the company that spends all the money in research to develop a product, is demonized when they try and make a profit from the fruit of there labor?

Be thankful the profit motive is there, you will not find cutting edge medicines in Canada, England, or France.

The drugs only cost a few cents to manufacture, yes, but the millions invested in research and development should be something they should eat? How about the 60% of all drug research that produces nothing, they should also eat that? After all they are evil huh?

Put government in charge of health care and all you will hear is how you had a good run but were sorry were not going to provide the health care you requested. Here is a pain pill now go home and die like a man..... no thanks

Silcc69
08-06-2009, 02:59 PM
Really it's like beating a dead horse. This shit is never ever gonna fly so Obama need to give it up and move on to his next project.

Jericho
08-06-2009, 03:09 PM
Be thankful the profit motive is there, you will not find cutting edge medicines in Canada, England, or France.

Idiot!

rameses2
08-06-2009, 03:16 PM
Did anyone see the Daily Show last week, with Bill Kristol? He said that civilians shouldn't be able to get the same Medical coverage that the Military has because: a)the Military is underpaid and puts their lives on the line on a daily basis, and b) only the Military deserves THE BEST Medical care the Government can provide. Bill Kristol said the Government's Health Care is the best money can buy. Was he just pandering to the audience or does he truly believe what he said? Also, if the Government is so horrible at Healthcare, does that mean everyone on Medicare and Medicaid are getting screwed by the Government? Why is it that those who protest the loudest are the ones who already have Health insurance?

MacShreach
08-06-2009, 03:18 PM
you will not find cutting edge medicines in Canada, England, or France.



Tell it to GlaxoSmithKline, fuckwit.

Silcc69
08-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Did anyone see the Daily Show last week, with Bill Kristol? He said that civilians shouldn't be able to get the same Medical coverage that the Military has because: a)the Military is underpaid and puts their lives on the line on a daily basis, and b) only the Military deserves THE BEST Medical care the Government can provide. Bill Kristol said the Government's Health Care is the best money can buy. Was he just pandering to the audience or does he truly believe what he said? Also, if the Government is so horrible at Healthcare, does that mean everyone on Medicare and Medicaid are getting screwed by the Government? Why is it that those who protest the loudest are the ones who already have Health insurance?ve outst

Politicians have outstanding healthcare to. IDK if the government provides but WTF am I saying its taxpayer based so they probably do provide it.

The life of a politician so many perks....

http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress

raybbaby
08-06-2009, 06:56 PM
Still LOLing at the idea of "Globalization, carefully applied".

q1a2z3
08-15-2009, 09:42 AM
Yes, yes, it's much better to live high on the backs of others who only make a subsistence living. If the poor need bandages, let them use silk scarves. Humane behavior is socialistic behavior and I won't have it. Why, because I on the right.

What a crock of shit!!! When you look at the losers living a subsistence existence it's their dictatorship government that is making them do that because they do not have freedom like we do here in America to succeed.
The left is all butt hurt because want control of you and to do that they prey on the weak minded to vote for them. Then everyone, except the leaders, will live in a subsistence living. Just go to North Korea to see America after 8 years of the magic negro! - Nope, he will be gone in less than 2.

Helvis2012
08-15-2009, 03:33 PM
Yeah.....very realistic.