Boxer to undergo sex change

[Snoriega27]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/2009/08/03/2009-08-03_boxer_rob_newbiggin_to_become_mercedes_after_se xchange_surgery.html

[TomSelis]

LOL

That mugshot...I mean picture, looked like a creature from star trek.

no way!

[alyssats]

i taught it was about the famous ladyboy Thai boxer

[Nowhere]

I respect the decision made, but somehow I don't think this is exactly going to help work towards helping the rest of the world understand gender identity mismatches as the medical condition it is. :?

The current state of the person IS about as masculine as a human being can be (not that it should matter, but it's just fodder for the media)...

[Justawannabe]

That's actually been one of the issues I think with acceptance. People continue to believe that there are those who should transition and those who should not due to outward appearance or past behavior. We would never say that a person should not get cancer treatment because they have smoked in the past, though we might think that smoking was not a good decision. Similar issue here, the soldier/boxer/football player is just showing off denial or survival instincts, a bit like someone taping up their own fingers when they get broken. It's fine, they tell us until the pain gets to bad.

Just saying that if we want it to be viewed as a medical condition rather than a lifestyle choice, someone like this, who has done everything possible to be as male as you can get, SHOULD be one of the poster children. The young, sexually appealing, very passable trans person makes it seem like it's just another choice someone might make, rather than a desperately needed medical therapy.

[Silcc69]

Ewwwww

[rockabilly]

i taught it was about the famous ladyboy Thai boxer

That's what i thought too.

[phobun]

The current state of the person IS about as masculine as a human being can be (not that it should matter, but it's just fodder for the media)...
Probably a turn-on for indeed (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=47679).

[Nowhere]

That's actually been one of the issues I think with acceptance. People continue to believe that there are those who should transition and those who should not due to outward appearance or past behavior. We would never say that a person should not get cancer treatment because they have smoked in the past, though we might think that smoking was not a good decision. Similar issue here, the soldier/boxer/football player is just showing off denial or survival instincts, a bit like someone taping up their own fingers when they get broken. It's fine, they tell us until the pain gets to bad.

Just saying that if we want it to be viewed as a medical condition rather than a lifestyle choice, someone like this, who has done everything possible to be as male as you can get, SHOULD be one of the poster children. The young, sexually appealing, very passable trans person makes it seem like it's just another choice someone might make, rather than a desperately needed medical therapy.

Um, no.

When the person looks as unpassable as possible, they look as much of a sexual deviant aka "PERVERT" to the rest of the world as possible, not someone with a medical condition. And, as we all know, perverts are seen as people who choose to get their rocks off on, whatever, further confusing gender identity with sexuality (and implying "choice" in it, when there is none).

You are as wrong as it gets.

We need more clear examples like Kim Petras out there so that is is considered to be a standard, treatable medical condition, covered by insurance and dealt with, at the right time, by puberty, so that people with incongruent gender identity can have the ability to be who they truly are, without the damage of puberty.

And, of course, so that you don't have the current situation, where many/most are forced into poverty and prostitution, given most most families throw them out, most jobs find a way to fire them, and the cost is rather astronomical on your own.

Would this boxer doing this right now, if it was considered a standard medical condition? Absolutely not. She would have simply lived as a woman the majority of her entire life, close to how most natal women do, every day.

[SarahG]

Just saying that if we want it to be viewed as a medical condition rather than a lifestyle choice, someone like this, who has done everything possible to be as male as you can get, SHOULD be one of the poster children. The young, sexually appealing, very passable trans person makes it seem like it's just another choice someone might make, rather than a desperately needed medical therapy.

Only this type of story is precisely why it is viewed as a lifestyle choice.

The general public's views on gender related conditions (transsexuality and the various intersexed conditions) has never been about "how people look."

The reason why people think its a "lifestyle choice" is not because of how passable someone is (or isn't), but because of how many stories there are -just like this one- painting it up to be some impulsive, sudden process.

Just take a look at the title of the article; "Boxer Rob Newbiggin to become 'Mercedes' after sex-change surgery." What do we have? The implication that this big masculine boxer will simply go away for a weekend, get a "sex change surgery" only to wake up to a new name, a new life, and new genitalia... without any otherwise changes.

It would be hard to find a more fictitious depiction of the transitioning process. All this article is missing is a picture of her putting on makeup at home, and/or pictures of her going clothes shopping at a mall.

My problem here has nothing to do with the fact that she lived half her life as a masculine man in a masculine field- if this were an article about a trans girl transitioning at 18 with feminine hobbies the article would still stink. What about showing how many years she suffered from dealing with gender related issues? What about talking about how old she was when she first started realizing that something is wrong? Instead of showing this to be a life long problem we get this single sentence:

"Newbiggin, born in Pennsylvania in 1964, had the anatomy of a male but high levels of the female hormone estrogen, which mean he could not be definitively classified as either sex."

Followed by the rest of the article making it look like she then was adopted, lived a masculine life as if everything was normal & un-noteworthy until this sudden moment of "omgwtfbbq I am married with kids and work as a boxer and now I am going to go get this sex change surgery and become a mother."

For fuck's shake the whole article doesn't even use the word "intersexed" once, there is no explanation given for the endocrine issues in childhood, pronoun after pronoun is incorrect (presumably only because she hasn't had the surgery yet to bring about that kind of over night change) and then to top it of the article stresses how these decades of masculine experience will be replaced by an envisioned "...future in modeling, painting, and interior design." Stereotypical much?

[jessicamoore]

why do older men wait till late in life and want a sex change? what about hormone treatment, living as a women for a year just to make sure. he is really a mascniline looking guy and big it would never work.

[phobun]

this sounds like a typical trash tabloid story, but more fitting for the World Weekly News or something.

How does a reporter from the Sun even find out about this? It is not as if some nobody-boxer holds a press conference anyone attends.

"After becoming Mercedes, Newbiggin said, he hopes to have a future in modeling, painting and interior design."

The whole thing sounds contrived.

[SarahG]

How does a reporter from the Sun even find out about this? .

Considering that they run a trans article like this about once a month, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a whole department whose job is to wander around the UK trans support groups trying to find the strangest, most absurd cases they can think of so that they can write sensationalized, wacky trash stories about it.

Alternatively they may have a million monkeys with typewriters locked away in a warehouse somewhere...

[Justawannabe]

Nowhere -

Having success stories of early transitions is important, but to imply that it is in any way the norm of what trans folks go through is doing a tremendous wrong to the group as a whole and just strengthens the case against late transitioners.

The reason it doesn't get addressed early is not just a matter of medical awareness but religious and social conditioning. It will be generations, at least, before you see the last of the late transitioning folks. Those people have just as little choice as the kids in the end, and need as much pr done in a sensitive light as the kids.

Or is your position that once you hit a certain age/jaw size you should no longer qualify for medical/social support? That if you live for some period in denial of your condition that you should be stuck that way or only pitied and looked down on rather than understood by having your story put out there to give others like you hope?

SarahG -

Actually, what I hear on this board and in person a lot of the time is precisely the opposite. The folks I've talked to on the conservation side of the fence see transsexuality among the young the way they see bi-sexuality among the young, a phase that should not be supported with damaging medical intervention and social support.

They see folks who try their hardest to fit into society but fail as a more sympathetic case. These people are giving up a lifetimes gains, so the drive must be beyond normal endurance, a medical condition. It's not seen as a snap decision in the articles, though it often is by those who know the person.

Going by a headline is misleading, almost all boil things down in innappropriate ways.

I agree that the article has flaws, but the comments on this thread were not based on the poor writing and lack of in depth description of the life long struggle, they were based on the 'ewww' factor. That a big beefy guy is going to try to transition, and not make an appealing woman.

I read the article as well, and in no case did it imply this was a sudden whim. It implied he did his best to live as his adopted father taught him to live but that he just couldn't do it anymore and was lucky enough to have a supportive partner.

And I agree, the pronouns are still he, like I have used here, because s/he didn't seem to have chosen to change hir status yet. That may be because of the rules in his/her area, but I don't presume to apply new pronouns without a clear indication what the person wants at this point. Which of the many should we stick on a this person not knowing their choice?

The 'intersexed' issue is not talked about, true, but it is a short piece, and refers to a childhood condition. That is a whole separate kettle of fish here, and would take a complete article in and of itself. It should happen, but I can certainly see where it might be cut for space.

As to the stereotyping, sadly that is a reality in many cases of a person trying to transition late or early.

As I said above, this article does have issues, lots of them, but one of them is not that this is a late transitioner coming out of a masculine field unlikely to make a traditionally attractive woman. Right now at least, a large number of such folks are out there walking the streets and trying not to be attacked for who they feel they must be, how else do we raise awareness that these people have a medical condition that needs treatment if we don't put there in the media?

With no media profile, every time one of these folks does come out about their transition it will be seen as a sudden and willful action on their part. Much like depression was, and still is for a lot of people, seen as choice to be lazy. The story needs to be front and center for a lot of folks to understand that transsexual folks most often try to fit in first, and it is only after they find that they can't do they pursue medical help.

Much like a lot of gay men who have wives and kids are reviled for lying about their real identities, trans folks are part of a larger issue. Society tries to guilt shame and threaten folks into being mainstream average joes. So if you are different, just like a torture victim, you do everything possible to please your attacker, or live up to the expectations of your parents or hide your 'deformity' so the mob doesn't turn on you... no matter how much it hurts, because the alternative is unthinkable.

That is until you break, you can't fight anymore and the truth of who you are comes out. Then instead of seeing you as someone who gave his all to be what was expected, we as a society turn on the person even more and revile them as liars, never acknowledging that we coerce them into lying to save their sanity life or sense of salvation.

Tell the real story of who the tribe is, all the members, in as many outlets as possible if you want folks to understand. Try to whitewash them with just the success stories and you get the ugly ducklings of the tribe attacked even harder because they didn't do it right.

sean

[bte]

Good luck on his journey. Hope he has a lot of money because I don't think he will be passable.

[alyssats]

why do older men wait till late in life and want a sex change? what about hormone treatment, living as a women for a year just to make sure. he is really a mascniline looking guy and big it would never work.

This is also what im thinking. Ive noticed most TS/TV in Europe and US mostly have sex change late in their life(40,45,50,55,60 yrs old) while in Asia usually around early to late 20's. Why is it like that in western culture?

[phobun]

This is also what im thinking. Ive noticed most TS/TV in Europe and US mostly have sex change late in their life(40,45,50,55,60 yrs old) while in Asia usually around early to late 20's. Why is it like that in western culture?
Probably the main reasons relate to cultural and religious factors that discourage transgender feelings and behavior

A minority of those who had their sex change later worked for years as shemale prostitutes and enjoyed using their male anatomy on submissive Johns. But near-geriatric shemales aren't exactly in demand, so they sometimes reinvent themselves as the women they claim they always were.

[Justawannabe]

phobun hit on the head.

Economics also plays a part. Some folks know they are going to transitions 'as soon as they are settled'. The idea there is wait until you have all the money you need for ALL your expected medical procedures in the bank before you risk your ability to make money in a mainstream job.

side note - reread the article after getting some sleep... and I was wrong about one thing. It seems from the article he had support from family but not friends.

[alyssats]

I see but if they transition or sex change late in their life most of them will just look like a mother or granny already sorry no offense. Whats the point of that or their transitioning? Why not transition while youre still young and fresh and will look like a sexy college girl or sexy lady?

[SarahG]

It will be generations, at least, before you see the last of the late transitioning folks.

I don't ever see late transitioners going away completely, there are always going to be people who somehow manage to throw themselves into denial long enough to be transitioning after (picking a # at random) 45.

BUT, you can already see that people are transitioning earlier than what used to be normal- its generational thing more than anything else. The amount of people who are transitioning in their late teens-20s is incomparable to just the early 90s, to say nothing of the 80s, 70s, 60s, and so on.

I've been in multiple trans support forums where they polled the user base of age of starting to transition and there were clearly two bell curves- one for the late transitioners, another for the ones in their early to mid 20s.


Or is your position that once you hit a certain age/jaw size you should no longer qualify for medical/social support?

Once again, no one here has said that. I think its pretty simple, if someone is at a crisis state of "transition or die" [at any age], transitioning is the obvious treatment choice to go with. I believe that it would be painfully obvious that limiting transition access for older transitioners would only lead to more suicides, more self destructive behavior, more substance abuse, and more psychological damage then is already being exhibited in the community as we speak.


SarahG
Actually, what I hear on this board and in person a lot of the time is precisely the opposite. The folks I've talked to on the conservation side of the fence see transsexuality among the young the way they see bi-sexuality among the young, a phase that should not be supported with damaging medical intervention and social support.

None of my posts in this thread are talking about child-transitioners. My beef is with the article, the publication that wrote it, and the idiot reporter who thought it could be passed off as journalism.


They see folks who try their hardest to fit into society but fail as a more sympathetic case.

Well sure, that should be obvious. Its kinda hard to be the "most sympathetic case" when you've waited decades, had a long successful career, and have the funds to simply "go on holiday to get SRS in thailand over the weekend" especially when so many young trans people are thrown out on the streets by their intolerant families, with no place to go, no education to fall back on, and no assets that can be liquidated to support them.

...but its not about "what's more sympathetic." I almost NEVER see a newspaper article talk about the plight of young trans people rejected by their families. The newspapers could care less about whose more sympathetic, or which groups the general public would be most sympathetic towards. All they care about is distorting trans issues, sensationalizing stories, and finding the most unbelievable stories- just like this one- to sell to readers who eat it up as a comedy piece.



That a big beefy guy is going to try to transition, and not make an appealing woman.

Which is pretty relevant from the article. Hell, the article went so far as to say she plans to go into modeling.

Modeling!? GG's don't get into modeling at that age. The whole thing paints her up to be a clueless, mentally ill person out of touch with reality who thinks they can go away for a weekend, become someone else, and that the results would be enough for her to enter into the field of modeling no less...

[SarahG]

I see but if they transition or sex change late in their life most of them will just look like a mother or granny already sorry no offense. Whats the point of that or their transitioning? Why not transition while youre still young and fresh and will look like a sexy college girl or sexy lady?

It's got nothing to do with whether or not they're attractive. It's about what they think/feel they need to be happy.

Anyone who thinks that they're transitioning to be a "sexy college girl" is going to have one rude awakening once they grow old. Everything that's beautiful dies in the end... what are they going to do when they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s? De-transition? Anyone who transitions before middle aged is looking at having 30-40 years of their life "looking like a mother or a granny."

[yodajazz]

Nowhere -

Having success stories of early transitions is important, but to imply that it is in any way the norm of what trans folks go through is doing a tremendous wrong to the group as a whole and just strengthens the case against late transitioners.

The reason it doesn't get addressed early is not just a matter of medical awareness but religious and social conditioning. It will be generations, at least, before you see the last of the late transitioning folks. Those people have just as little choice as the kids in the end, and need as much pr done in a sensitive light as the kids.

Or is your position that once you hit a certain age/jaw size you should no longer qualify for medical/social support? That if you live for some period in denial of your condition that you should be stuck that way or only pitied and looked down on rather than understood by having your story put out there to give others like you hope?

SarahG -

Actually, what I hear on this board and in person a lot of the time is precisely the opposite. The folks I've talked to on the conservation side of the fence see transsexuality among the young the way they see bi-sexuality among the young, a phase that should not be supported with damaging medical intervention and social support.

They see folks who try their hardest to fit into society but fail as a more sympathetic case. These people are giving up a lifetimes gains, so the drive must be beyond normal endurance, a medical condition. It's not seen as a snap decision in the articles, though it often is by those who know the person.

Going by a headline is misleading, almost all boil things down in innappropriate ways.

I agree that the article has flaws, but the comments on this thread were not based on the poor writing and lack of in depth description of the life long struggle, they were based on the 'ewww' factor. That a big beefy guy is going to try to transition, and not make an appealing woman.

I read the article as well, and in no case did it imply this was a sudden whim. It implied he did his best to live as his adopted father taught him to live but that he just couldn't do it anymore and was lucky enough to have a supportive partner.

And I agree, the pronouns are still he, like I have used here, because s/he didn't seem to have chosen to change hir status yet. That may be because of the rules in his/her area, but I don't presume to apply new pronouns without a clear indication what the person wants at this point. Which of the many should we stick on a this person not knowing their choice?

The 'intersexed' issue is not talked about, true, but it is a short piece, and refers to a childhood condition. That is a whole separate kettle of fish here, and would take a complete article in and of itself. It should happen, but I can certainly see where it might be cut for space.

As to the stereotyping, sadly that is a reality in many cases of a person trying to transition late or early.

As I said above, this article does have issues, lots of them, but one of them is not that this is a late transitioner coming out of a masculine field unlikely to make a traditionally attractive woman. Right now at least, a large number of such folks are out there walking the streets and trying not to be attacked for who they feel they must be, how else do we raise awareness that these people have a medical condition that needs treatment if we don't put there in the media?

With no media profile, every time one of these folks does come out about their transition it will be seen as a sudden and willful action on their part. Much like depression was, and still is for a lot of people, seen as choice to be lazy. The story needs to be front and center for a lot of folks to understand that transsexual folks most often try to fit in first, and it is only after they find that they can't do they pursue medical help.

Much like a lot of gay men who have wives and kids are reviled for lying about their real identities, trans folks are part of a larger issue. Society tries to guilt shame and threaten folks into being mainstream average joes. So if you are different, just like a torture victim, you do everything possible to please your attacker, or live up to the expectations of your parents or hide your 'deformity' so the mob doesn't turn on you... no matter how much it hurts, because the alternative is unthinkable.

That is until you break, you can't fight anymore and the truth of who you are comes out. Then instead of seeing you as someone who gave his all to be what was expected, we as a society turn on the person even more and revile them as liars, never acknowledging that we coerce them into lying to save their sanity life or sense of salvation.

Tell the real story of who the tribe is, all the members, in as many outlets as possible if you want folks to understand. Try to whitewash them with just the success stories and you get the ugly ducklings of the tribe attacked even harder because they didn't do it right.

sean
I pretty much agree with this view.



I see but if they transition or sex change late in their life most of them will just look like a mother or granny already sorry no offense. Whats the point of that or their transitioning? Why not transition while youre still young and fresh and will look like a sexy college girl or sexy lady?

It's got nothing to do with whether or not they're attractive. It's about what they think/feel they need to be happy.

Anyone who thinks that they're transitioning to be a "sexy college girl" is going to have one rude awakening once they grow old. Everything that's beautiful dies in the end... what are they going to do when they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s? De-transition? Anyone who transitions before middle aged is looking at having 30-40 years of their life "looking like a mother or a granny."
I'm concerned that too many in the t community place too much emphasis on physical beauty. I wonder about the longer term effects of silicone injections and other proceedures. I have discovered that as one ages, one tastes changes to to see the attractiveness in an older person. Sure those 18 year old bodies have some appeal, but after living a while came to realize that their minds are not developed enough to bring me happiness of an everyday companion.

One other comment about the original topic. The 'fashion model' quote does make it look like the person is crazy, and destroys what sympathy a reader might feel for the person. News does provide an important function when it makes categories of people sympathetic. They used to call them 'human interest stories'. The article seems to be one that is just to get attention, at the expense of the subject.

[JeniferTS]

I see but if they transition or sex change late in their life most of them will just look like a mother or granny already sorry no offense. Whats the point of that or their transitioning? Why not transition while youre still young and fresh and will look like a sexy college girl or sexy lady?

It's got nothing to do with whether or not they're attractive. It's about what they think/feel they need to be happy.

Anyone who thinks that they're transitioning to be a "sexy college girl" is going to have one rude awakening once they grow old. Everything that's beautiful dies in the end... what are they going to do when they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s? De-transition? Anyone who transitions before middle aged is looking at having 30-40 years of their life "looking like a mother or a granny."

took the words right out of my mouth.

[rockabilly]

Sarah does that , she took my breath away. ;)

[JeniferTS]

Sarah does that , she took my breath away. ;)

and you blow my mind away (no pun intended)

[alyssats]

I see but if they transition or sex change late in their life most of them will just look like a mother or granny already sorry no offense. Whats the point of that or their transitioning? Why not transition while youre still young and fresh and will look like a sexy college girl or sexy lady?

It's got nothing to do with whether or not they're attractive. It's about what they think/feel they need to be happy.

Anyone who thinks that they're transitioning to be a "sexy college girl" is going to have one rude awakening once they grow old. Everything that's beautiful dies in the end... what are they going to do when they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s? De-transition? Anyone who transitions before middle aged is looking at having 30-40 years of their life "looking like a mother or a granny."

I see yes actually most Asian Ladyboys prefer to transition early and once they reach 30, 40, 50 they become more relaxed,simple and get out of the glamour life and even sometimes de-transition. Thats the reason you would not see many Asian Ladyboys whos in there 40s,50s,60s.

Most Asian Ladyboys prefer to enjoy life while young, do what they feel just be the girl that they feel inside. Just like what most of my Asian TS friend said to me 'Work it girl while youre young and be beautiful'. Their thinking is better to have a small span of lifetime being out in the open and transition early than have a long span of life being in the closet and not doing what you really want in life.

[SarahG]

One other comment about the original topic. The 'fashion model' quote does make it look like the person is crazy, and destroys what sympathy a reader might feel for the person. News does provide an important function when it makes categories of people sympathetic. They used to call them 'human interest stories'. The article seems to be one that is just to get attention, at the expense of the subject.

Exactly, and unfortunately, these types of stories are the rule for trans-coverage in mainstream media, not the exception.

You won't see the articles that talk about life long struggles in detail needed to gain symphony, you won't see articles talking about youths being kicked out of their families' homes for being trans, you won't see articles talking about how big of a problem trans related discrimination is, or how frequently trans people are murdered. You won't see any articles talking about how slow and gradual the process of transitioning usually is. You won't see any articles talking about the clinics that try to "treat" trans patients with electro shock...

You'll never see it in a british newspaper like this one, but with very SPORATIC data-coverage, the current count shows 1 trans person is murdered somewhere on the planet every 3 days. (http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/every-third-day-the-murder-of-a-trans-person-is-reported/) You won't see an American paper talk about how those stats don't include most of the US (while including so much of the 3rd world) because of the way social conservatives prevent legislation that would track those crimes.

[phobun]

I see but if they transition or sex change late in their life most of them will just look like a mother or granny already sorry no offense. Whats the point of that or their transitioning? Why not transition while youre still young and fresh and will look like a sexy college girl or sexy lady?
I would stipulate that this is the attitude of someone using transition to get young studs, not a woman who is serious about her identity as a woman. An individual who truly believes she is a female will take her feelings seriously, even if transitioning means she will not be pretty or attractive to guys.

Besides, there are other factors that determine how attractive a person, is... her social conscience, her heart and her brain especially. Personally I would rather have a very average looking girlfriend who is smart and sensitive than a ditz who is running on only her looks.

[phobun]

... even sometimes de-transition. Thats the reason you would not see many Asian Ladyboys whos in there 40s,50s,60s.
Unfortunately, some transsexuals do not live to their old age because they face hard lives and die early.

But of those who de-transition, I would dispute that they were ever transsexual. Probably just gayboys with boobs who used a female identity to meet big swinging dicks.

[rockabilly]

Sarah does that , she took my breath away. ;)

and you blow my mind away (no pun intended)

I gotta start somewhere Jen ;)

[Beagle]

gee, i thought you were talking about Barbara Boxer. Hell, I would have thought that would have been more logical.