Tranny hard facts!

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

A good way for guys get to know your background a lil better. :P

1. How old were you when you stared to transition? 14

1 a. Do you consider yourself to be:

a. primary transexual PRIMARY
b. secondary transexual

2. You transition by ways of?

a. hormones (hrt) 8 yrs. HRT on and off
b. surgery SOME surgery

3. How long have you lived as a woman (opposite the gender you were born with)? 11 Years

4. Have you ever lived life as a man (gay/bi)? NO

5. IF yes, Have you ever engaged in sex with gay men? NO

6.. Have you been with a woman? NO

7. Are you mostly into:

a. men MEN only!
b. women

8. Have you fathered a child? NO

9. How long have you been a father figure to this child? N/A

10. If secondary transexual, What made you suddenly realize to live opposite the gender you were living by? N/A

So let's hear it ladies. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Alyssa87]

is this a sideways hit to Bella?

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

is this a sideways hit to Bella?

Take it for what it's worth. But 2ndary trannies feeling they "know it all" must be put back to their place.

It's called setting things straight for the record. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Alyssa87]

i didnt know we had places.


have fun hara. u crazy girl.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Rofl

Oh yes we do girl! I found out a long time ago that latent trannies are the ones bursting with hatred at primary transexuals for obvious reasons. lol

~Kisses.

HTG

[Nashvegas]

can you define primary vs seconardy? never heard that before..

[SarahG]

can you define primary vs seconardy? never heard that before..

Well, that's a very complicated question because so many people fight over:

1- whether or not the terms should exist at all
2- if so, what they should mean.

This link is a very very brief crash course in the common definitions of the term:
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/primary.html

Personally I think the terms are a bunch of shit (for a variety of reasons, some less obvious then others), but that's just my opinion.

My biggest complaint with the terminology is that sometimes its defined so that your orientation determines "how trans you are." Which is a load of crap. Not all lesbians are lumberjack lesbians, and it's pretty damn common for young GG's today to be bi (ever hear the term "hetero-flexible"?), or at least open to doing sexual acts with other girls as a way of picking up/attracting guys.

Edit: I should also add that I am sympathetic with Hara's comments of mid life crisis transitioners (i.e. the people who live in uber masculine jobs/roles until they're in their 40s or 50s and then suddenly go fulltime & transition as if refusing to do so at once will kill them) thinking they "know it all" but I think that's more of a generational thing than anything else. I think a lot of that boils down to "I am 50 years old and you're practically just a kid, so you should listen to me even if my experience is irrelevant to yours, and if you don't then you're just being a stupid kid."

[Nashvegas]

thanks sarahg

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Not totally a bunch of bull (see link below). But to Add what SarahG has explained:

Gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe persons who experience significant gender dysphoria (discontent with the biological sex they were born with). It is a psychiatric classification and describes the attributes related to transsexuality, transgender identity, and transvestism. It is the diagnostic classification most commonly applied to transsexuals.

Gender identity disorder in children is usually reported as "having always been there" since childhood, and is considered clinically distinct from GID which appears in adolescence or adulthood, which has been reported by some as intensifying over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

I think it's spot on. Being a TS/TG isn't something that creeps up so late in life, when you're suffering from a midlife crisis!

~Kisses.

HTG

[SarahG]

Gender identity disorder in children is usually reported as "having always been there" since childhood, and is considered clinically distinct from GID which appears in adolescence or adulthood, which has been reported by some as intensifying over time.

Wow that's poorly written (not your fault, wikipedia has severe problems like this sometimes).

For clarification to the guys on here: They're talking about when the patient has the onset of GID, not the age of the patient.

The way the DSM works is most conditions have two versions, the adulthood diagnosis and the children diagnosis. If a child is diagnosed with GID at 9 years old, they don't keep that children GID diagnosis forever; once they reach adulthood they're given the normal GID diagnosis. That is, assuming they are still suffering from GID in adulthood (theoretically it's possible to be trans without suffering from GID and its possible to "cure" having GID by transitioning).

It boils down to this: Some people who are trans suffer from duress caused by gender issues. Some people start having gender issues early in life and need to deal with it early in life by transitioning in order to be psychologically functional.

Some other people, on the other hand, don't exhibit any noticeable duress [or if they do, they are very good at hiding it], and are perfectly capable of functioning as extremely masculine guys until they're middle aged, and then they reach what seems to be a sudden "omgwtfbbq I need to transition this weekend or my life is over!" crisis.

There appears to be two "groups" of trans people, those who need to transition immediately and those who can live normal masculine, hetero lives for decades before reaching a "transition or die" state of being. The argument goes that it makes sense to label the two groups as different (primary versus secondary). But... I don't personally see a benefit to giving a different name to each group because, realistically it offers no advantage from a clinical, treatment point of view,* and it would be difficult to pin point a specific age from which someone is either in one group or the other.

At what GID-onset-age would someone be "secondary"? 5? 10? 15? 20? 25? 30? 35? 40?

What do we consider people who transition but never report GID at all? Theoretically gender related duress is a side effect of transsexualism, and not one that HAS to occur per say. Someone could transition (at either age) and never actually report feeling gender duress. It's probably rare (just about everyone I've ever talked to said they had emotional problems with being trans at some point or another in their life) but by the books it is possible.


Being a TS isn't something that creeps up so late in life, when you're suffering from a midlife crisis!

You'd think. Which poses another question... what if someone started having GID problems immediately in life, but somehow managed NOT to transition for decades? It's not a sudden crisis if its something that's always adversely effected them. What if the patient can prove they've been suffering from GID all their lives, but didn't start transitioning until 50?






* What I mean by this is, if a patient walks into a shrink's office complaining of GID, the therapist knows how old the patient in front of them is. They don't need to try to label them with primary or secondary to know 1- how old they are, 2- when they started having GID problems.

So why would any therapist or surgeon want to label someone as "primary" or "secondary"? The simple answer is because they want something that would empower them to gatekeep the patient's access to transitioning so that they can play "stereotype enforcer."

Thus if the patient isn't "enough of a women" for the therapist's peace of mind (i.e. not attracted to men, doesn't like skirts, doesn't wear makeup, has spent years/decades working masculine jobs, doesn't look passable, didn't start early enough in life) the therapist can just go "well, I think because of these gender role violations, you're a secondary transsexual and shouldn't be allowed to have HRT or srs or any of these other treatments." This was how transitioning was run in the US under the gender clinic system, and is still the way its handled by some clinics in Canada. If you're "not the stereotypical straight 1950s housewife," they keep you from transitioning.

IF a patient is truly at a point where its "transition or die" and literally intends suicide if transitioning isn't an option, then letting the patient have SRS or HRT or anything else is a fucking NO BRAINER. /rant

[BellaBellucci]

A scaled down look into my background:

1. How old were you when you stared to transition? 27

1 a. Do you consider yourself to be: Neither( one less label)

a. primary transexual
b. secondary transexual

2. You transition by ways of?

a. hormones (hrt)
b. surgery (none, yet)

3. How long have you lived as a woman (opposite the gender you were born with)? 16 months

4. Have you ever lived life as a man? Yes

5. IF yes, Have you ever engaged in sex with gay men? NO

6.. Have you been with a woman? yes

7. Are you mostly into: Both

a. men
b. women

8. Have you fathered a child? yes (3 adorable girls)

9. How long have you been a father figure to this child? since their birth

10. What made you suddenly realize to live opposite the gender you were living by?

I got really tired of not being to able to talk to anyone about my internal struggles, so I told my then wife about my gender issue, with her support I "realized" that I could be just me and everything would be okay.

I didn't notice this thread until now. It's not like I go around looking for trouble. That activity is a favorite of some other girls, but not this one.

You're very brave to post this here. Hara will now more than likely now call you a man since your background is so similar to mine - kids, age, lack of labels - apparently it means you're not really TS. What a boring argument.

For the record I don't use labels like 'primary transexual.' That's a term that insecure little girls use to validate themselves when they don't get enough acceptance in their regular life. Since I'm accepted 100% I never gave it much thought. I'm just me and I'm entirely comfortable with that. I don't need to belittle other trannies to make myself feel better like SOME people.

And since I'm so ENTIRELY sick of hearing this: I'm 30, ok? That's FAR from middle-aged. I started transition at 26 and hormones have actually taken enough years off of me that I get carded at bars all the time. Get over yourself.

~BB~

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I'm 30, ok? That's FAR from middle-aged. I started transition at 26 and hormones have actually taken enough years off of me that I get carded at bars all the time. Get over yourself.

~BB~

lol Is that in dog years? ;)

I was IRKED! And was venting like you did on one of the threads (TTYN). So to quote you "I apologize, ok? Life goes on".

I'm over it, and so should you.

~Kisses.

HTG

[BellaBellucci]

I'm 30, ok? That's FAR from middle-aged. I started transition at 26 and hormones have actually taken enough years off of me that I get carded at bars all the time. Get over yourself.

~BB~

lol Is that in dog years? ;)

I was IRKED! And was venting like you did on one of the threads (TTYN). So to quote you "I apologize, ok? Life goes on".

I'm over it, and so should you.

~Kisses.

HTG

Deal.

~BB~

[SexChangeTranny.com]

1. How old were you when you stared to transition? 24

1 a. Do you consider yourself to be:

primary transexual

2. You transition by ways of?

a. hormones (hrt)
b. surgery SOME surgery

3. How long have you lived as a woman (opposite the gender you were born with)? 10 years

4. Have you ever lived life as a man (gay/bi)? yes

5. IF yes, Have you ever engaged in sex with gay men? yes

6.. Have you been with a woman? yes

7. Are you mostly into:

men MEN only!


8. Have you fathered a child? NO

9. How long have you been a father figure to this child? N/A

10. If secondary transexual, What made you suddenly realize to live opposite the gender you were living by? N/A

[BellaBellucci]

I guess since Hara and I are cool at the moment, I should go ahead and answer this silly questionnaire. ;)

1. How old were you when you stared to transition? 26

1 a. Do you consider yourself to be:

a. primary transexual
b. secondary transexual

I don't really recognize the validity of these labels, but I want SRS, so primary I guess.

2. You transition by ways of?

a. Hormones (12mg estradiol/day)
b. Eventually I'd like SRS, a nose job, and a chin implant, although I could live without the nose and chin

3. How long have you lived as a woman (opposite the gender you were born with)?

4 years

4. Have you ever lived life as a man?

Obviously. lol

5. IF yes, Have you ever engaged in sex with gay men?

No.

6.. Have you been with a woman?

You betcha.

7. Are you mostly into:

a. men
b. women

I'm 'pansexual.' Look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexual

8. Have you fathered a child?

Yes, one beautiful brilliant little boy who is my entire world.

9. How long have you been a father figure to this child?

Never. I began transition after he'd just turned 3. He knows I used to be male, but he doesn't remember it and can't visualize it. He has a stepdad for this.

10. What made you suddenly realize to live opposite the gender you were living by?

Whoever said it was sudden? I knew I was different at age 4 and struggled most around 11 (onset of puberty), 15, 19, and 25 but I was born into the most dysfunctional and abusive family known to man so my issues took a back seat to everyone else's apparently. I was beaten for being a 'sissy,' which is ironic because I consider myself a very strong woman. I fathered a child and married because I thought I could try to impress people by proving that I 'beat' my 'issues.' Then I realized that they weren't issues at all unless I actually cared what people thought of me, so now I don't. What finally set me off to transition was the realization that my marriage was a fraud.

~BB~

[HP1000]

I think both Hara and Bella should just mello out, pick up the phone and call Buddy Wood! Both of you are gorgeous woman in their prime..
Why not make a video together?
I'm all for it.

What do other men in here think?

[BellaBellucci]

I think both Hara and Bella should just mello out, pick up the phone and call Buddy Wood! Both of you are gorgeous woman in their prime..
Why not make a video together?
I'm all for it.

What do other men in here think?

We said we're 'cool.' Don't push it. :P

~BB~

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

It's kewl. A guy can dream (fantasize)- and its FREE! lol ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Jericho]

I think both Hara and Bella should just mello out, pick up the phone and call Buddy Wood! Both of you are gorgeous woman in their prime..
Why not make a video together?
I'm all for it.

What do other men in here think?

I think you've more chance of giving birth! :shrug

[Justawannabe]

Thanks to the girls who answered the questions, great to see some life story material on here.

Thanks to the girls who posted the primary vs secondary info blocks as well, again good to see some of that material pushed around and what folks think of it.

[Popeye99]

I may be resurrecting a dead thread, but wanted to offer my two cents in the discussion about primary vs. secondary. I'm in my 50's. That means I was a teenager in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I can remember thinking that I was very different from the other boys, but any information about transsexuals was scarce and hard to find. Every so often I might see something about Christine Jorgensen or Renee Richards, but never much more than a short account, saying that she'd changed her sex. So I knew that it was possible to "change sex" but had little other information available to me. I remember visiting the library at a medical school near my hometown, and finding a journal article with drawings of what I believe was Dr. Biber's method. I studied the Physician's Desk Reference to try to figure out what drugs to take to feminize myself. I remember cutting into my scrotum, wondering if I could remove my testicles.

I did all of these things and more before I was age 18, and did so while thinking that I was all alone in dealing with my "gender" issue of feeling like I was female. Words like transition, HRT, testosterone blocking, and such were not in use. The times until the advent of the internet in the late 1990's were the "dark ages" for information about transsexualism and transitioning.

Despite the difficulty in trying to get information, I managed to get my hands on estrogen at several different times. First, in my early 20's, while still in college, I was able to take Premarin for about a year. I had to stop 'cause I couldn't get the prescription refilled after a year and couldn't find the 1st doctor or someone else for a new prescription. Still felt like I was all alone in doing this, so tried marriage and fatherhood. The marriage was a disaster, but the fatherhood part was great and a highlight of my life. After divorce, in my 30's, I found another doctor who prescribed Premarin and spiro. I lived through about 130 hours of electrolysis on my face. I took the Premarin and spiro until I ran out of renewals on the prescriptions and couldn't get more. I could go on and on.

But the point is that it wasn't until the last decade, or for me, my 40's and early 50's, that we've enjoyed the explosion of information about transsexuality that the internet brings. I am resigned to the notion of living out my life as a male, single and impotent, primarily so as to not lose contact with my kids or future grandchildren. But I often wonder whether, if all this information and the realization that many others were confronting and dealing with these same questions was available, back when I was 18 or 20, what path would I have taken then? It's so easy now to learn about HRT and hair removal and anything else relating to transitioning. More importantly, it's so easy now to connect with others who are dealing with the same issue.

I'm guessing that most of you would look at me and categorize my transsexuality as secondary. I'm looking at it, from my perspective, and factoring in how hard I worked to repress it at times, and I believe it's primary. That's why I don't think there's anything to be gained from either label.

[Nicole Dupre]

Maybe separating fetishism and gender identity makes sense But beyond that I think things are far more complicated, and in some ways far more simple, than those original "primary" and "secondary" categories.

In fact, I think even the various stages of transition are a more valid way to measure your "inner tranny". lol But that also opens the door for more useless categories. I mean, it's like saying that unless you have implants by a certain point in your transition, you're still a "boy in a dress". Is that fair? I'm not sure, but I would think it's just as valid a way to divide trannys.

[Justawannabe]

Thanks for the post Popeye99, that is exactly the story I've thought was fairly common for most people but less posted about here due to the type of board this is.

One question I have is why is the 'boy in a dress' almost the worst fate a person could suffer? How did THAT become such a big issue that people not only live in fear of the label, but actively try to stick the label on others so it can't be stuck to them.

[Nicole Dupre]

Thanks for the post Popeye99, that is exactly the story I've thought was fairly common for most people but less posted about here due to the type of board this is.

One question I have is why is the 'boy in a dress' almost the worst fate a person could suffer? How did THAT become such a big issue that people not only live in fear of the label, but actively try to stick the label on others so it can't be stuck to them.

Because "primary" and "secondary" don't mean a thing if most people treat you like a "boy in a dress" ie. if you are getting clocked a lot. I'm just pointing out that many people, including many trannys, see things that way. The issue is; why start making ANY trannys, in essence, second class citizens with such a supposedly clear dividing line? I think for some people, it can be a slippery slope. That's all.

[substanceD]

Thanks for the post Popeye99, that is exactly the story I've thought was fairly common for most people but less posted about here due to the type of board this is.

One question I have is why is the 'boy in a dress' almost the worst fate a person could suffer? How did THAT become such a big issue that people not only live in fear of the label, but actively try to stick the label on others so it can't be stuck to them.My theory is that after living in the wrong gender for so long, the last thing a person would want is to be doomed to never be the right gender. Combine that with the fact that transgender people have traditionally been maligned through history, and that a tight knit, exclusive community is a big deal to any repressed minority and it makes sense that anyone seen as "toeing the line" so to speak would (understandably) be seen as an offense to a person fully transgendered.

[SarahG]

In fact, I think even the various stages of transition are a more valid way to measure your "inner tranny". lol But that also opens the door for more useless categories. I mean, it's like saying that unless you have implants by a certain point in your transition, you're still a "boy in a dress". Is that fair? I'm not sure, but I would think it's just as valid a way to divide trannys.

In a way there already is in a sense, just look at preop versus nonop labels.

[Nicole Dupre]

In fact, I think even the various stages of transition are a more valid way to measure your "inner tranny". lol But that also opens the door for more useless categories. I mean, it's like saying that unless you have implants by a certain point in your transition, you're still a "boy in a dress". Is that fair? I'm not sure, but I would think it's just as valid a way to divide trannys.

In a way there already is in a sense, just look at preop versus nonop labels.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. And what about post vs. pre?

"True vs untrue", "primary" or "secondary", often don't amount to much in terms of how sane and well-adjusted a TS is. But one thing's for certain; pre-op M2F sex-workers of any kind are almost always seen as "less than".

[yodajazz]

Edit: I should also add that I am sympathetic with Hara's comments of mid life crisis transitioners (i.e. the people who live in uber masculine jobs/roles until they're in their 40s or 50s and then suddenly go fulltime & transition as if refusing to do so at once will kill them) thinking they "know it all" but I think that's more of a generational thing than anything else. I think a lot of that boils down to "I am 50 years old and you're practically just a kid, so you should listen to me even if my experience is irrelevant to yours, and if you don't then you're just being a stupid kid."

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I feel this is important. There is a philosphy which says that all human beings can learn from one another. If not from their similarities, then from our differences. All humans feel the same emotions, for example. Those of us who have spent time with children, know that you can learn something about life from an infant just coming out of the womb, and then through every step of life. So if a three year can teach you something about life, surely a fifty year old transisioner can teach you something about life. The fact that they may have taken a different road, but ended up making a similar decision about their body state is a point of obvious similarity.

And it may not even being about t related issues. Anyone who ages learns valuable lesson, which in turn gives them longer life. It is only natural that older people want to give their lessons to those behind them. But usually, the younger ones don't want to listen and they ended having to make the same mistakes. But the ones who learn, advance the human cause to a greater degree.

SarahG, it seems like you resent older people for bothering to survive.

And now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[SarahG]

There is a philosphy which says that all human beings can learn from one another. If not from their similarities, then from our differences.


However that requires people being able to rationally think, talk AND listen to each other, and lets face it- although technically possible, sometimes the odds of it happening are minuscule.

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).

Telling a trans person who is 25 that they should wait 10 years to go on HRT isn't going to go over well, and its going to go over worse if its delivered as an ultimatum. When the younger transitioner responds to the orders (its not advice if the person speaking to you demands you do everything as they say) to say something along the lines of "well, thats nice it worked for you well that way and all but it really doesn't help my situation, I am not going to wait 10 years to go on HRT, even if it means going DIY" what follows is an immediate argument/pissing match/flame war of two people yelling at each other (sometimes with likeminded people taking one of the two sides to join in on the screaming) and the conversation effectively ends.

I've seen this exact scenario play out time and time again on trans support forums/groups, where some (again, not all) outspoken late transitioners insist things have to be done a certain way because that's how they did it, and belittle/flame anyone who dares to disagree with that exact process. HRT isn't the only point of disagreement, its just the example I'm using to talk about this (I can think of several other scenarios that are otherwise identical to the above).


surely a fifty year old transisioner can teach you something about life.

Sure, I've never said otherwise. But, to use another proverb- you can't shake hands with a clinched fist. People have to be willing to listen and think even when it flies in the face of their own experiences.


SarahG, it seems like you resent older people for bothering to survive.

Why is it that there are some people who will get their panties in a knot whenever anyone says anything even remotely critical of some of the late transitioners?

I mean seriously, it seems like every time anyone points out anything that could be construed as critical of a late transitioner, there is someone somewhere who immediately responds with some off topic rant about how "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" while knowing damn well that no one in the thread has suggested otherwise.

[BellaBellucci]

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).


I remember when I first started and I did research on laser versus electro. I immediately thought, 'why would anyone torture themselves by using electrocution one hair at a time?' The late transitioners had an answer for me: scarring.

Fast forward 4 years. I've had nothing but laser and I have no scarring. It actually occurred to me about 2 years ago that this would be the case and I realized that what these people tried to do was dupe me. They were jealous that our generation has an easier, more effective way to remove unwanted hair (and without the need for pattern growth), so they just lied about it. I can't even begin to tell you how many false lectures I received on the dangers of laser treatments, but now people use them for everything.

I co-sign every word you said 100%. They (late transitioners) told me it was their way or the highway... so I started driving!

~BB~

[SarahG]

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).


I remember when I first started and I did research on laser versus electro. I immediately thought, 'why would anyone torture themselves by using electrocution one hair at a time?' The late transitioners had an answer for me: scarring.

Fast forward 4 years. I've had nothing but laser and I have no scarring. It actually occurred to me about 2 years ago that this would be the case and I realized that what these people tried to do was dupe me. They were jealous that our generation has an easier, more effective way to remove unwanted hair (and without the need for pattern growth), so they just lied about it. I can't even begin to tell you how many false lectures I received on the dangers of laser treatments, but now people use them for everything.

I co-sign every word you said 100%. They (late transitioners) told me it was their way or the highway... so I started driving!

~BB~

Meanwhile the real important part would have been; because not everyone can use laser. It depends on your skin type & hair color & the machine being used. For some people there is no choice.

But I digress, this is only some of the people who are out there on sites and in groups that allow diverse membership. Saying they're all like that would be as erroneous as saying universally that "everyone who starts hrt at 18 won't need FFS to pass"

[yodajazz]

There is a philosphy which says that all human beings can learn from one another. If not from their similarities, then from our differences.


However that requires people being able to rationally think, talk AND listen to each other, and lets face it- although technically possible, sometimes the odds of it happening are minuscule.

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).

Telling a trans person who is 25 that they should wait 10 years to go on HRT isn't going to go over well, and its going to go over worse if its delivered as an ultimatum. When the younger transitioner responds to the orders (its not advice if the person speaking to you demands you do everything as they say) to say something along the lines of "well, thats nice it worked for you well that way and all but it really doesn't help my situation, I am not going to wait 10 years to go on HRT, even if it means going DIY" what follows is an immediate argument/pissing match/flame war of two people yelling at each other (sometimes with likeminded people taking one of the two sides to join in on the screaming) and the conversation effectively ends.

I've seen this exact scenario play out time and time again on trans support forums/groups, where some (again, not all) outspoken late transitioners insist things have to be done a certain way because that's how they did it, and belittle/flame anyone who dares to disagree with that exact process. HRT isn't the only point of disagreement, its just the example I'm using to talk about this (I can think of several other scenarios that are otherwise identical to the above).


surely a fifty year old transisioner can teach you something about life.

Sure, I've never said otherwise. But, to use another proverb- you can't shake hands with a clinched fist. People have to be willing to listen and think even when it flies in the face of their own experiences.


SarahG, it seems like you resent older people for bothering to survive.

Why is it that there are some people who will get their panties in a knot whenever anyone says anything even remotely critical of some of the late transitioners?

I mean seriously, it seems like every time anyone points out anything that could be construed as critical of a late transitioner, there is someone somewhere who immediately responds with some off topic rant about how "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" while knowing damn well that no one in the thread has suggested otherwise.
I would certainly agree that an older person shouldn’t say that things have to be done their way only. A wise person would say, “This is what I learned from my experience”. And they understand that the other person is free to choose their own path.

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend. The way I see it, if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression, then you are giving someone else to right to deny you the same thing. That is why free speech advocates will defend the rights of someone they disagree with.

I believe a community which is inclusive gains greater power through greater numbers. It has been mentioned earlier in this thread that some trans people, define themselves as being better than others. I believe that this holds the community as a whole back. If an older transistioner implies that they are ‘better’, the answer is not, “no younger ones are better”. The answer is that everyone’s experience is valid because we are all on the same path. The ones that arrive late are still on the same road, ready to fight in the same battle.

I recently remembered hearing that two t-girls I had met who were roommates, started arguing over who was better than the other. One murdered the other. So in the end did it really make any difference who was better? They were both trans women trying to survive in a sometimes hostile world. But what destroyed both, was their lack of respect for other trans women.

[SarahG]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.


When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.


...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

[Nicole Dupre]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.


When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.


...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

I find that many of his posts lack substance, and that he often misinterprets peoples' intentions. He does lots of moralizing about things that no one's even discussing. He's not a bad guy, but I don't think he has a lot to share here. I think he just likes to play Yoda. lol

[yodajazz]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.


When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.


...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

Ok I understand you daying that you are using the stereotype. The question is whether or not you believe in it yourself. It seems that you are saying that you do not believe in it. But I do recall you using that in other posts. So I now assume that whe you said it in the past, you meant it in the sense, that it is what a person who is ignorant of of trans issues might think.

I do recall a previous discussion about whether cross dressers, were a benefit or hurt trans causes. If I remember correctly, I think that you took the position that their public image hurt trans acceptance. This then calls into question what your general attitude towards crossdresser is. That is where the 'gender expression' part comes from. I do understand that every human group has people in it who may be bad for the overall image. This is especially true in racial relations.

If I do misunderstand your intentions at times, it's because I do respect you enough to try and understand your writings, and I make it a point to read your posts. I want to keep you honest. You say many things that I completely agree with, even in this thread. If I am wrong, it is still done out of love, with the thought of the greater community in mind. I did hesitate to post on this thread. But I saw what appeared to be an attack on older transistioners. But now, it has been said that this was in regard to some specific people.

[yodajazz]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.


When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.


...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

I find that many of his posts lack substance, and that he often misinterprets peoples' intentions. He does lots of moralizing about things that no one's even discussing. He's not a bad guy, but I don't think he has a lot to share here. I think he just likes to play Yoda. lol

Yeah, I do moralize and get up in my soapbox. That's just me. But I do it in general because so many people take the low road. Other people say "well, its okay to be disrespectful, it's just the internet." But I was trained to look at a bigger picture. Disrespect of classes of people (tranny chasers, etc) is a sign community division. And many people don't even think there is a community. But by definition 'community', means greater power.

[Beagle]

i think some would be well served to listen what trannygirl15 has to say on this subject...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmoA_pkd2N4&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSLcyp-h61g&feature=channel_page

[Nicole Dupre]

I think this is a stupid thread and it should be taken down. There are no hard facts here.

If we're going to discuss this topic, let's get trannys here who were actually diagnosed as primary according to the HBS, outdated and skewed as that research is.

Then we can have a discussion involving and concerning who here has a verifiable history indicating that they are "primary". Otherwise, this is a THREAD FAIL, and is a ploy to ostracize other trannys on HA.

Again, I was diagnosed as "primary", got the "intersexed" diagnosis, and it never improved my quality of life.

[Silcc69]

What happened with the other thread with Hara and Nicole goin at it?

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm not "going at it with her" at all. I don't want to talk to her AT ALL, for the millionth time.

But this thread is just blatantly divisive, and should come down. I don't care who wrote it.

[Silcc69]

http://preaprez.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/clash_of_the_titans_cover_dvd_330o.jpg

[SarahG]

What happened with the other thread with Hara and Nicole goin at it?

Which one? wasn't there about a dozen of them?



If we're going to discuss this topic, let's get trannys here who were actually diagnosed as primary according to the HBS, outdated and skewed as that research is.

That would be hard to do simply because so many shrinks simply ignore those terms.

[Nicole Dupre]

That would be hard to do simply because so many shrinks simply ignore those terms. Maybe they avoid discussing them, but they are usually aware of them, and base their decision on them to give you the green light for HRT.

The Callen-Lorde Clinic, which is where I officially began HRT, bases their criteria for putting you on HRT on the HBS. However, Callen-Lorde is ALSO aware that the HBS are outdated and need to revised. Callen-Lorde has a far higher amount of TS case studies, which establish such distinctions, than Harry EVER had.

[SarahG]

But if your transition is libido driven, most shrinks can differentiate. They don't intentionally want to help you become a tranny hooker, or legitimize you self-indulgently playing dress up. lol

This is true, but if they want to do that there are other ways they can [mis]diagnose you.

I.e. AG

[Nicole Dupre]

This is true, but if they want to do that there are other ways they can [mis]diagnose you.

I.e. AG

No doubt.

[buckjohnson]

Hara and BB together in a scene.....let me think about that.

SarahG, most of your posts are intellectually honest, but the ones on this thread were a little transparent and personal, like you had a personal agenda and not willing to be open about others experiences.

For the ladies who posted their personals, great and lots of courage. I probably could not be so self-aware of myself to honestly be able to answer the ?'s posted. Thanks a lot and good luck on your journeys.

[SarahG]

SarahG, most of your posts are intellectually honest, but the ones on this thread were a little transparent and personal, like you had a personal agenda and not willing to be open about others experiences.


Oh? Why do you say that? Is there a particular argument I made that you disagree with?

[buckjohnson]

SARAHG

Mainly your answers to yodajazz
I just read another one of your post on another thread. So spot on that I am going to make my date wait downstairs so I can reply to it.

You are so cool, just a chilli chilli type person.

[SarahG]

SARAHG

Mainly your answers to yodajazz
I just read another one of your post on another thread. So spot on that I am going to make my date wait downstairs so I can reply to it.

You are so cool, just a chilli chilli type person.

I probably do come off as too harsh, I find people read me as hostile or angry far more than they should.

[buckjohnson]

I don't..But I can see others who could.

[buckjohnson]

Thanks Hara for starting such an informative thread and being so honest in your replies.

[yodajazz]

SARAHG

Mainly your answers to yodajazz
I just read another one of your post on another thread. So spot on that I am going to make my date wait downstairs so I can reply to it.

You are so cool, just a chilli chilli type person.

It's nice to know someone is reading these posts besides SarahG. And also, that some people are able to critique the logic of others arguments. I'm not saying that I am always right, however.

[kalina]

There are so many additional questions that are omitted. You can't come up with any rational conclusions based on 10 questions.

Some might feel if you didn't go all the way post-op, then you're not a primary TS.

Some might feel that if you don't look like a woman even after all of your surgeries or hormones, then you aren't primary, secondary, or whatever TS.

Some might feel if you have some deficiency, such as lack or hair, too much hair, or a masculine body, then you're not a primary TS.

I'm sure everyone can come up with their own definitions that serve their own purposes. The best thing we can all hope to do is maximize our enjoyment and quality of life and minimize our contact with the stereotypes and prejudices of people who don't understand us. Life isn't so bad if you know how to balance everything in your life. (It sounds circular, but it makes sense to me :) )

[BellaBellucci]

My, my. Isn't this the thread that never dies?!

Well said Kalina.

~BB~

[kalina]

My, my. Isn't this the thread that never dies?!

Well said Kalina.

~BB~

Thanks BB, and, for the record, I have 2 kids and I defy anyone to see me as a man transitioning because of midlife crisis.

Wasn't there a Miss Italian Transsexual some years back who had 3 kids?

[BellaBellucci]

My, my. Isn't this the thread that never dies?!

Well said Kalina.

~BB~

Thanks BB, and, for the record, I have 2 kids and I defy anyone to see me as a man transitioning because of midlife crisis.

Wasn't there a Miss Italian Transsexual some years back who had 3 kids?

Oh sure. NOW you tell me that I'm not alone around here. lol

Here's to motherhood. :)

~BB~

[yodajazz]

There are so many additional questions that are omitted. You can't come up with any rational conclusions based on 10 questions.

Some might feel if you didn't go all the way post-op, then you're not a primary TS.

Some might feel that if you don't look like a woman even after all of your surgeries or hormones, then you aren't primary, secondary, or whatever TS.

Some might feel if you have some deficiency, such as lack or hair, too much hair, or a masculine body, then you're not a primary TS.

I'm sure everyone can come up with their own definitions that serve their own purposes. The best thing we can all hope to do is maximize our enjoyment and quality of life and minimize our contact with the stereotypes and prejudices of people who don't understand us. Life isn't so bad if you know how to balance everything in your life. (It sounds circular, but it makes sense to me :) )
Great post and nice avatar photo, Kalina. So I would put it; no matter what the facts are, it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Each circumstance is unique.

[buckjohnson]

Kalina.

Nice post. But did you answer the ?'s

I felt Hara, whatever her personal motivations, asked some legit questions.

I don't know for sure othere animosity towards her posting and maybe we should let this thread die...but I am curious about the questions and it may help in understanding the transitions girls go thru.

[kalina]

My, my. Isn't this the thread that never dies?!

Well said Kalina.

~BB~

Thanks BB, and, for the record, I have 2 kids and I defy anyone to see me as a man transitioning because of midlife crisis.

Wasn't there a Miss Italian Transsexual some years back who had 3 kids?

Oh sure. NOW you tell me that I'm not alone around here. lol

Here's to motherhood. :)

~BB~

I think we're not the only ones with kids. It would be nice if others stepped forward and admitted they have kids, too, even if they're no longer with the birth mothers of their children.

I know a TS couple (girl and girl) where one of them had a son with her ex-wife. Some of you have probably seen these girls in a film. That's all I'll say. So it's not so uncommon after all and I believe parenting can foster a sense of responsibility in some TSs. I wanted my cake and to eat it, too, and I wanted the cherry on top and the whipped cream and the candles and everything. To miss out on the joys and heartaches of parenting would've upset me greatly, especially since I knew I had the power to make my own children.

I had wonderful relationships with men when I was separated. I wouldn't give up those memories ever, but I was in a different place at that time.

[kalina]

Kalina.

Nice post. But did you answer the ?'s

I felt Hara, whatever her personal motivations, asked some legit questions.

I don't know for sure othere animosity towards her posting and maybe we should let this thread die...but I am curious about the questions and it may help in understanding the transitions girls go thru.

Oh, yes, you're right! Here goes mine:

1. How old were you when you stared to transition?
14, but I had feelings of wanting to be a woman at age 4

1 a. Do you consider yourself to be:
a. primary transexual
b. secondary transexual
primary, because who the hell wants to be known as a secondary?

2. You transition by ways of?
a. hormones (hrt)
Continuously since April 2003 with some short breaks here and there in the beginning and in 2008.
b. surgery
None, I don't believe in it. So where's electrolysis/laser hair removal? How about having your own head of hair and managing it every day? When I go to sleep, I don't rip a wig off when I climb into bed. Some TSs get their mones illegally, so what about going to a doctor and getting all the required counseling? How about change of driver's license? Name change on your birth certificate? Being ACCEPTED as a woman in society rather than being the one who gets pointed at and stared at by strangers? Mones and surgery will not give you instant acceptance to anyone but the TSs who care about mones and surgery.

3. How long have you lived as a woman (opposite the gender you were born with)?
Here's the catch with this question. Even before I started mones (2003), many TSs thought I was living as a woman and on mones. How do you account for this? So technically I will say 2003, but if you were a fly on my wall, you'd see it was much longer than that.

4. Have you ever lived life as a man (gay/bi)?
Yes, that's how I got married.

5. IF yes, Have you ever engaged in sex with gay men?
No. Men, yes, but gay men, no. Everyone will pretty much agree that the guys who like us do not consider themselves to be gay. Asians are in a very unique situation, I feel, because many of us are slender-femmes. There, if you want another label, I have that one. A slender-femme is a genetic male who is naturally slender with feminine features and, in my opinion, genetically predisposed to be a woman. Many slender-femme Asian men can engage in relationships with other men and these men would never consider themselves gay because they're with someone who has, for all intents and purposes, a female-looking body. How do you account for this? I'm not sugarcoating preferences here. If I was a man and identified as a man and I was with another man, I'd basically say I was gay, but I've never really looked like a man even when I tried. How do you account for this?

6.. Have you been with a woman?
Yes, many times. I love both men and women. They each provide me different comforts.

7. Are you mostly into:
a. men
b. women
Men provide more satisfaction. Women provide the maternal instinct. How could you choose just one?

8. Have you fathered a child?
Yes, 2 and I pay all the bills.

9. How long have you been a father figure to this child?
I have a toddler and a newborn.

10. If secondary transexual, What made you suddenly realize to live opposite the gender you were living by?
Not applicable since I had my children after 2003. The second baby was a miracle baby because last year medical tests showed that I was infertile. Four months of stopping mones solved that problem.

Any more questions? Check out my web sites!

[kalina]

Great post and nice avatar photo, Kalina. So I would put it; no matter what the facts are, it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Each circumstance is unique.

Thanks :)
Yes, I agree, every circumstance is unique. Being transgender is a shade of gray and not black or white as in male or female.

[buckjohnson]

kalina.

I admire your forthright persona. You seem hip, cool and one together HA.

And you look hot.... I don't use that term very often...

[kalina]

kalina.

I admire your forthright persona. You seem hip, cool and one together HA.

And you look hot.... I don't use that term very often...

Many thank you's :)

[buckjohnson]

Now if only Angelina Torres will post to this thread.

[AngelinaTorres]

Now if only Angelina Torres will post to this thread

1. How old were you when you stared to transition?
long time ago


1 a. Do you consider yourself to be:
a. primary transexual
b. secondary transexual

Primary


2. You transition by ways of?
a. hormones (hrt) yes and estrogen

b. surgery NO I NEVER HAD RESORT TO SURGERY yet... :)


3. How long have you lived as a woman (opposite the gender you were born with)?

4 years

4. Have you ever lived life as a man (gay/bi)?

yes

5. IF yes, Have you ever engaged in sex with gay men?

yes


6.. Have you been with a woman?

no


7. Are you mostly into:
a. men
b. women

MEN


8. Have you fathered a child?

NO
.

9. How long have you been a father figure to this child?


10. If secondary transexual, What made you suddenly realize to live opposite the gender you were living by?




THAT'S ALL ?? uugghhh ok...

[buckjohnson]

Great post AT.

You probably have more to offer to describe your journey. Perhaps it will be done another time

One good question would be have you ever loved a man?

[AngelinaTorres]

Great post AT.

You probably have more to offer to describe your journey. Perhaps it will be done another time

One good question would be have you ever loved a man?

we will talk about that personally ;)

yes i ever loved a man has died ! :lol: