Why can't people see me as a woman

[juliana_dominguez]

So I know it's been awhile since the last time I posted here on this forum. So hello to everybody and a BIG shout out to all my girls. This has always been a place for me if I wanna vent out a feeling or just to rant about something that I am sure concerns and relates to my T community.

I just got home from my appointment with the USCIS (United States Citizenship and Immigration Services) because I am applying for my greencard. Before I applied for it, I made sure I did my change me name and gender legally and so i did. Last year I got approved by the Superior Court of California on legally using my new name and new gender that I have applied. I rushed to the DMV and applied an ID/DL that states my new name and gender. I never had a problem with it. I was even congratulated for having my name and gender change legally. Now what horrifies me is what happened awhile ago at the immigration office. I filled out an application form, of course, I had to put my name and gender there and of course, I put in my new gender as well as my name (Juliana) which is my legal name, right? Then when it's my turn to speak with the immigration officer, she needed more identification documents aside from my California driver's license. so I showed her my Philippine passport. I was asked to wait for hours because they had troubles with my name because my passport have Male on the sex. So the immigration officer asked me to wait on the office while she checked on some stuff. I waited for a long time dear, and when she got back I checked the papers that I filled out and She basically erased Female and put on Male. I was so disappointed. That bitch. So, I told her if I got problems because I am indeed a transsexual. She just told me, Even though i've got the whole entire operation, Surgeon's letter, Psychologist's letter etc. They will still consider my birth sex which is male. I was so pissed so I talked to her and showed her all legal documents that I have in hand. She told me that she really can't do anything, she said "YOU'RE STILL A MAN, EVEN IF YOU HAVE SURGERIES. YOU ARE STILL A MAN, WHAT YOU HAVE IS ARTIFICIAL AND NOT REAL OR NATURAL." Of course, I felt down, angry, discriminated, humiliated. But I stood proud and told her how she's so close minded. That she needs to just look at me as a woman. She insisted, I may be a woman on paper, physically, emotionally and I even got married as a woman (which she doubts), But that doesn't change the fact that I was still born a Man. =(

So I still went on and got everything done at the center. But at the end of the day, I realized, I won't have anyone make me feel less of a woman as long as I know myself and that I know I am a woman by body, spirit and soul. And I wouldn't have anybody put me down like that even though I feel like I wanted to give up.

[bte]

It's good that you stood up for yourself. Unfortunately the lady that you encountered is just a small annoyance to a bigger population of idiots.

[SXFX]

Girl, gorgeous, darling, the world sucks!
And what makes it worse is that the world is full of assholes who suck!
I wish I could give you a good answer, one that will make you feel better, one that would lift the weight off your chest and quench fire that is burning your heart......but I'm sorry I don't.
Live sucks, the world sucks and people for the most part are assholes!
But you have your health. You are very smart and very beautiful.
Three things that, that person most likely does not have.

[FREEFALLL666]

Well first there is the whole USA = Biblebashers thing... To most getting a tattoo or a nose job is tampering with creation and you will be smited...

Second the attitude displayed by other girls mainly those who say they want to be treated like any other girl but as soon as someone shows interest in a girl begining their transition they scream out in self hate "FAG"

Then there are those who go on Jerry Springer type shows and fuck up 95% of the efforts of other tgirls by whoring out their souls.. (Note I find Prostitution honorable) people who turn up on that show and say "Im really a MAN" should be called Sir/Mr forever...

[ralph dibny]

Fact is, if you´re happy or on the way to be happy, you cause too much jealousy and envy on those who haven´t got balls to even try. So all they can to break your happiness, they will.
But you´re not fresh on this struggle, you have won so far, just keep winning. Papers are nothing compared to what you feel at heart.

[matrixdave]

YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL AND IT IS NOT THAT STUPID ASS LADYS RIGHT TO JUDGE YOU.ITS ONLY HER JOB TO DO WHAT SHE IS HIRED TO DO.THATS TODAYS PROBLEM TOO MANY PEOPLE JUDGE OTHERS. AND SOONER OR LATER IT WILL COME BACK AND BITE THAT BITCH IN THE ASS.

[conan007]

yeah you are beautiful
ignore that bitch woman
you have every right to be
treated like any other woman
and your far better than some of them
especially that bitch

[Solitary Brother]

I have to agree with everyone else.....you come across to me as a women I dont see anything mannish about you.
The woman was probably jealous.
By the way what nationality was the woman that was rude to you?

P.S
Im watching your YOUTUBE videos and whatever hormones you are taking have worked perfectly for you.
Your 100 percent totally feminine and your voice and mannerism are PERFECT.
You should be very proud of what you have achieved.

[blckhaze]

It sounds like they were just being really low. It really sux because if your were born In the US, youd have had no problems fixing ur BC (birth cert) and all that.

Anyway, dont worry. We know you and your more woman than some who bleed monthly.

[AishaX]

Oops once in the habit of using a scrreny it's hard to break.

[BrendaQG]

She just told me, Even though i've got the whole entire operation, Surgeon's letter, Psychologist's letter etc. They will still consider my birth sex which is male. I was so pissed so I talked to her and showed her all legal documents that I have in hand. She told me that she really can't do anything, she said "YOU'RE STILL A MAN, EVEN IF YOU HAVE SURGERIES. YOU ARE STILL A MAN, WHAT YOU HAVE IS ARTIFICIAL AND NOT REAL OR NATURAL."

Fucking bureaucrats. When they have you in front of them, and even if you know the rules and know that they are supposed to follow those rules, they don't have to. They think they can do what they want.

I am sorry if I did not catch this, I hope you stepped over into another persons line and got that done. (This reminds me of when I went to get the gender on my DL changed. One young hip but transphobic bitch would not do it. While a visibly religious sister followed the rules and did her job. You just never know sometimes.)

Tell me was that fish ugly or inadequate in some way....some reason for her to be jealous perhaps.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Sorry to hear this Julianna. They got you out of a small technicality. I bet if your Philippine passport and birth certificate said FEMALE, this wouldn't have been a problem. There was a similar case a few years ago involving a post op transexual. Where the post op was peitioning her fiancee. They we're denied too because the USCIS found out that she was once a man and had SRS. But they sued and i *think won (I heard from someone)?

Check this out:

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=724f1276c8d3521d5542b 9a2f50400e4

So that's an option you and your husband can take. But be prepared for much scrutiny. They will research you and your husbands past. And that could get very ugly!

Anyways, don't let them get you down. You are an RN and you can get work sponsorship and get around this BS! Much luck with everything hun. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

Thanks for all the reply and support

I wouldn't be able to change my records in the Philippines because the government doesn't allow transsexual women pre/non/post to have their documents changed or corrected. Only Intersexed people can have the right to do so. This has been challenged alot of times already but seems to me that the Supreme Court is not on our side.

I believe everything will be just as fine. I've got all the paperwork, all documents that I can show as proof. That's the harsh thing about Immigration, I probably think this is not my lucky day, cause I've got an Immigration officer who is judgemental, close minded, gender prejudice and discriminating.

[Tarissa]

I would go back and tell them that this is not acceptable. It sounds like you got a newbie that does not know how to do her job. She took the shortcut instead of doing a little research to make things right. You have followed the rules and they need to make the documentation accurate. You are a female. Good luck Juliana.

[a994]

Juliana, you are most definitely all woman, as far as I am concerned. Those persons who would give you trouble about that are just showing off their inhumanity (not to mention rudeness) to us all. As long as you know who your true friends are, you'll be okay. :)

[Realgirls4me]

Juliana,
Don't allow another's ignorance, insensitivity, callousness, and lack of professionalism get to you. You didn't come this far in your young life's journey to permit an idiot to play with your head like this, did you?
I have had the great privilege of meeting you (at the pageant last year), and yes, you are a lovely woman in mind, heart, spirit, and body. A very beautiful woman at that.

Eleanor Roosevelt's quote comes into play once again:

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

:)

[Alyssa87]

what if all you had was your california ID?
and NOT your phillipines passport?

[Nowhere]

Actually, I believe what she did was intentional verbal assault and grounds for termination. I would have asked to speak to her manager on the spot.

[SarahG]

It sounds like they were just being really low. It really sux because if your were born In the US, youd have had no problems fixing ur BC (birth cert) and all that.

Unless you're born in one of the what, 4 states (?) that refuse to issue new birth certificates, like Ohio.

[SarahG]

Sorry to hear this Julianna. They got you out of a small technicality. I bet if your Philippine passport and birth certificate said FEMALE, this wouldn't have been a problem.

That's precisely what the problem is. Immigration likes to use the country of origin's documentation as a starting point when processing people. It's not a process designed with trans issues in mind, because for most the people that walk threw that door- all their documentation is consistent from birth to their attempt to become an American citizen.

That said, the clerk was way out of line for the "srs isn't real" lecture. Federal employees in capacities like these are there STRICTLY for following department policy & the various statures (laws) involved. They're not there to lecture people. They're supposed to shut up even if they have personal opinions on issues and simply say "we have to handle this as if you're male because of your incoming documentation from where you were a citizen says so." No lecture, no ranting, no "i am better than you/you're delusional" crap. The lady could probably have been fired for the lecture if the issue is pressed.

Even when the clerk knows not to go ranting, you'll probably know if the clerk is PO'd at the situation. When I changed my name and went to the DMV to get a new DL, the lady who worked there immediately got extremely mad when she saw the court order (her whole facial expression and body language immediately changed), she wasn't hiding how mad she was that she had to process a new DL for me... and then hoped the court order was a fake and made me wait while she called the court house to verify everything was legit. But, she knew there would be been repercussions for using it as an opportunity to get on a soapbox and simply said "this is what we need from you to do this" and once she had all the information (RealID is a bitch...) she silently processed it and that was the end of it (gotta love bureaucracies). Ok, so the DMV isn't usually known as a cheerful place to begin with, but her demeaner was like night & day once she saw the old name in the various paperwork RealID requires.

Personally, I would have told her that her "its not real, you're always a man" crap shows she's misinformed, the federal government has recognized changes of sex status (at least in part) for a long time. Postops in the US can get female passports, are considered female by the SSA- she simply has no idea wtf she's talking about.

[FREEFALLL666]

Alternative..
Maybe you are just so feminine that when they saw the original Male on your records the woman thought FRAUD and used the "bad attitude about X" thing to check you out..

(Unrelated, I would love to see you and Alyssa87 up to naughty things)

[tstv_lover]

Some people just have closed minds and not prepared to think outside their comfort zone.

If their "mental model" of the world is that everyone is MALE or FEMALE, depending upon what's written on their borth certificate, then they're unwilling to look at the evidence of an attractive WOMAN trying to explain her situation.

The problem lies with them, but sadly the consequences affect others. Their inability to think laterally and accept CHANGE will always make them small. Rise above their weakness. YOU are a BEAUTIFUL WOMAN!

[Tika]

She sounds like a hateful person that felt threatened by you in some way. It's not your fault. It's hers for being an asshole and a power-tripping bitch. It's up to you as to the course of action you want to take, but I would definitely suggest filing a complaint with her superiors and/or getting a lawyer involved.

Never let them grind you down. Live a good life, hold your head high and pity her.

[alyssats]

Thanks for all the reply and support

I wouldn't be able to change my records in the Philippines because the government doesn't allow transsexual women pre/non/post to have their documents changed or corrected. Only Intersexed people can have the right to do so. This has been challenged alot of times already but seems to me that the Supreme Court is not on our side.

I believe everything will be just as fine. I've got all the paperwork, all documents that I can show as proof. That's the harsh thing about Immigration, I probably think this is not my lucky day, cause I've got an Immigration officer who is judgemental, close minded, gender prejudice and discriminating.

sorry to hear that and girl your gorgeous i couldnt see any man in you

by the way I taught its allowed in the Philippines to change your gender from Male to Female also your name could be change but will be a long process go tru medical and supreme court. Many Filipina girls have successly change their papers from Male to Female from what I saw in the news in Manila.

[alyssats]

sorry double post

[TsVanessa69]

So I know it's been awhile since the last time I posted here on this forum. So hello to everybody and a BIG shout out to all my girls. This has always been a place for me if I wanna vent out a feeling or just to rant about something that I am sure concerns and relates to my T community.

I just got home from my appointment with the USCIS (United States Citizenship and Immigration Services) because I am applying for my greencard. Before I applied for it, I made sure I did my change me name and gender legally and so i did. Last year I got approved by the Superior Court of California on legally using my new name and new gender that I have applied. I rushed to the DMV and applied an ID/DL that states my new name and gender. I never had a problem with it. I was even congratulated for having my name and gender change legally. Now what horrifies me is what happened awhile ago at the immigration office. I filled out an application form, of course, I had to put my name and gender there and of course, I put in my new gender as well as my name (Juliana) which is my legal name, right? Then when it's my turn to speak with the immigration officer, she needed more identification documents aside from my California driver's license. so I showed her my Philippine passport. I was asked to wait for hours because they had troubles with my name because my passport have Male on the sex. So the immigration officer asked me to wait on the office while she checked on some stuff. I waited for a long time dear, and when she got back I checked the papers that I filled out and She basically erased Female and put on Male. I was so disappointed. That bitch. So, I told her if I got problems because I am indeed a transsexual. She just told me, Even though i've got the whole entire operation, Surgeon's letter, Psychologist's letter etc. They will still consider my birth sex which is male. I was so pissed so I talked to her and showed her all legal documents that I have in hand. She told me that she really can't do anything, she said "YOU'RE STILL A MAN, EVEN IF YOU HAVE SURGERIES. YOU ARE STILL A MAN, WHAT YOU HAVE IS ARTIFICIAL AND NOT REAL OR NATURAL." Of course, I felt down, angry, discriminated, humiliated. But I stood proud and told her how she's so close minded. That she needs to just look at me as a woman. She insisted, I may be a woman on paper, physically, emotionally and I even got married as a woman (which she doubts), But that doesn't change the fact that I was still born a Man. =(

So I still went on and got everything done at the center. But at the end of the day, I realized, I won't have anyone make me feel less of a woman as long as I know myself and that I know I am a woman by body, spirit and soul. And I wouldn't have anybody put me down like that even though I feel like I wanted to give up.

Dont let ignorant closed minded people get you down. You are a beautiful woman and that will never change. Enjoy it and the benifits from it. 1 person should not make you or break you my sister. Females sometimes are haters and that born a man line is old already, but thats all they have. You have the upper hand, laugh at them and enjoy your life, your husband and your future here. There are enough people out there who see the real you and those are the people you should consider. I'm sorry it happened to you, but it happens to all of us. But at the end of the day, you live your truth, now smile!!! Love the lif you live, because you live the life you love!

[2009AD]

Then there are those who go on Jerry Springer type shows and fuck up 95% of the efforts of other tgirls by whoring out their souls.. (Note I find Prostitution honorable) people who turn up on that show and say "Im really a MAN" should be called Sir/Mr forever...

You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBvc-WTFRA

[JeniferTS]

Then there are those who go on Jerry Springer type shows and fuck up 95% of the efforts of other tgirls by whoring out their souls.. (Note I find Prostitution honorable) people who turn up on that show and say "Im really a MAN" should be called Sir/Mr forever...

You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBvc-WTFRA

I'm ready for what's to cum! :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn

[T-girl hound]

Then there are those who go on Jerry Springer type shows and fuck up 95% of the efforts of other tgirls by whoring out their souls.. (Note I find Prostitution honorable) people who turn up on that show and say "Im really a MAN" should be called Sir/Mr forever...

You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBvc-WTFRA

I'm ready for what's to cum! :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn


Ditto :peanutbutter

[Silcc69]

IDK government employee's can do shit like that and it seemed like that bitch was really trying to put an emphasis on it too.

[SarahG]

IDK government employee's can do shit like that and it seemed like that bitch was really trying to put an emphasis on it too.

They can't, she could probably get the girl fired for the lecture, especially if she had witnesses to prove what she had said.

But without evidence to what she said, it becomes she said/she said and, since we're dealing with ICE (? I am assuming), they're probably not going to believe an immigrant over their own.

They key would be in pointing out that it wasn't that she didn't know procedures/policies, the problem wasn't that- it was her asserting her views on SRS that was in the wrong.

[jcinva]

Simple: Because a terrier ain't a goldfish.

"Tell you what though, for free, terriers make lovely fish. I mean I could do that for you straight away. Legs off, fins on, stick a little pipe through the back of its neck so it can breathe, bit of gold paint, make good ... "

[Shining Star]

While one understands your pain, it helps to separate out emotions from facts, this will give you a clearer course of action.

First, rude civil servants are common the world over, it must be part of the job description! *LOL*

You can take up the clerks unprofessional conduct through the proper channels, should you wish.

As for your green card, anything to do with passports, immigration and so forth requires two pieces of identification. One that proves your ID, the other to prove one's nationality (US citizen or born in another country).

For the first, one can use many sorts of state issued papers (drivers license for instance), the second only two documents will do: an official birth certificate, previously issued United States passport. IIRC there may be a third class for persons who were not born in the US, but are legal residents and or have some other legal right to remain within the US, but am not sure.

In the case of United States citizens whom have had the SRS, laws require a new passport to be issued with the new gender upon presentation (and probably verification), of the operation. One has to submit the official surgical record from the hospital, and other papers from one's doctor clearly stating what was done and that one is now a different sex from one's birth gender.

Pre-9/11/01 it may have been possible to find a passport clerk who would be kind and issue a passport that said "F" or "M" to a pre-op trannie, even without proper papers, however that has all but gone in the post 9/11/01 world. No one in government wants to have their name attached to anything that might go wrong and come back to haunt them. The current "war" on illegal immigration isn't helping matters either.

Civil servants normally are not the most well paid persons, they do however have good pensions and benefits, so for certain persons it is one of the best jobs they can ever have, and loosing it would be a disaster. So they aren't going out on a limb for anyone.

Just for the record, everything one hands in for a passport and or immigration purposes is kept on file. While access to those files is supposed to be restricted, it still is there. So a clerk approving something without the proper documents takes a great risk should an audit or check reveals no supporting documentation. This also means your previous application (and denial) are on record, so if and when you reapply the whole thing is still there.

As another poster stated, applying for a passport or other immigration benefits works from one's original BC. If the BC says one gender, and other documents say another, it raises a red flag (which is why you had to wait), and further investigation must take place.

Should you truly wish to proceed on this matter, it may be wise to consult a reputable immigration attorney, rather than try to battle the federal government single handed.

[juliana_dominguez]

Thanks again for all the support. I'll update you guys with what will happen next.

[phobun]

So I know it's been awhile since the last time I posted here on this forum. So hello to everybody and a BIG shout out to all my girls. This has always been a place for me if I wanna vent out a feeling or just to rant about something that I am sure concerns and relates to my T community.

I just got home from my appointment with the USCIS (United States Citizenship and Immigration Services) because I am applying for my greencard. Before I applied for it, I made sure I did my change me name and gender legally and so i did. Last year I got approved by the Superior Court of California on legally using my new name and new gender that I have applied. I rushed to the DMV and applied an ID/DL that states my new name and gender. I never had a problem with it. I was even congratulated for having my name and gender change legally. Now what horrifies me is what happened awhile ago at the immigration office. I filled out an application form, of course, I had to put my name and gender there and of course, I put in my new gender as well as my name (Juliana) which is my legal name, right? Then when it's my turn to speak with the immigration officer, she needed more identification documents aside from my California driver's license. so I showed her my Philippine passport. I was asked to wait for hours because they had troubles with my name because my passport have Male on the sex. So the immigration officer asked me to wait on the office while she checked on some stuff. I waited for a long time dear, and when she got back I checked the papers that I filled out and She basically erased Female and put on Male. I was so disappointed. That bitch. So, I told her if I got problems because I am indeed a transsexual. She just told me, Even though i've got the whole entire operation, Surgeon's letter, Psychologist's letter etc. They will still consider my birth sex which is male. I was so pissed so I talked to her and showed her all legal documents that I have in hand. She told me that she really can't do anything, she said "YOU'RE STILL A MAN, EVEN IF YOU HAVE SURGERIES. YOU ARE STILL A MAN, WHAT YOU HAVE IS ARTIFICIAL AND NOT REAL OR NATURAL." Of course, I felt down, angry, discriminated, humiliated. But I stood proud and told her how she's so close minded. That she needs to just look at me as a woman. She insisted, I may be a woman on paper, physically, emotionally and I even got married as a woman (which she doubts), But that doesn't change the fact that I was still born a Man. =(

So I still went on and got everything done at the center. But at the end of the day, I realized, I won't have anyone make me feel less of a woman as long as I know myself and that I know I am a woman by body, spirit and soul. And I wouldn't have anybody put me down like that even though I feel like I wanted to give up.
The immigration officer is probably just another misogynistic cockbandit.

[JamesHunt]

The immigration officer is probably just another misogynistic cockbandit.

Maybe she had no choice but to interprit the laws as they are written :roll:

[NYBURBS]

The immigration officer is probably just another misogynistic cockbandit.

Maybe she had no choice but to interprit the laws as they are written :roll:

LOL It's true that the INS officer is required to follow the law. However, there are ways to go about that so as to avoid putting someone down or ridiculing them (which I think took place here).

[JamesHunt]

The immigration officer is probably just another misogynistic cockbandit.

Maybe she had no choice but to interprit the laws as they are written :roll:

LOL It's true that the INS officer is required to follow the law. However, there are ways to go about that so as to avoid putting someone down or ridiculing them (which I think took place here).

Maybe she was the 120th person she had to deal with that day, and she just wanted to get onto the next....

[Hankgray]

I am going to throw my 2 cents in, and before I do, let me be clear, I am not justifying the action of the INS agent in any way. You mention the superior court of California approved the name and gender change. If this is a state court as opposed to a federal court, INS may view their rulings as inmaterial due to jurisdicational reasons. Since INS is a federal agency it may require a change in federal court to satisfy INS. I don't know for sure, but I have dealt on numerous occasions with federal agencies (Justice, EPA, DOE, DOD) and there is the anti-state bias. Again, that does not justify their actions.

[Danielle Foxx]

I am going to throw my 2 cents in, and before I do, let me be clear, I am not justifying the action of the INS agent in any way. You mention the superior court of California approved the name and gender change. If this is a state court as opposed to a federal court, INS may view their rulings as inmaterial due to jurisdicational reasons. Since INS is a federal agency it may require a change in federal court to satisfy INS. I don't know for sure, but I have dealt on numerous occasions with federal agencies (Justice, EPA, DOE, DOD) and there is the anti-state bias. Again, that does not justify their actions.

I still have to do my paperwork, it's been a year. This worries me LOL

I had no problem walking into the customs agents and holding my head tall as I entered the country again. My passport still says male on print but next to it is the picture of a not so bad looking lady, if I may so so myself huh huh huh...

So... it doesn't matter what the print says or what closed minded people think. What matters is your calmness and happiness.

Don't let one set back discourage you and try again in a few months, maybe that bitch will quit or get demoted to window washer.

Wait girl... just wait ... you ca reapply and try again with a more open minded individual.

I would seriously contact her boss or the state attorney's office about your complaint.

Write a letter girl! Let them have it!

[SarahG]

I am going to throw my 2 cents in, and before I do, let me be clear, I am not justifying the action of the INS agent in any way. You mention the superior court of California approved the name and gender change. If this is a state court as opposed to a federal court, INS may view their rulings as inmaterial due to jurisdicational reasons. Since INS is a federal agency it may require a change in federal court to satisfy INS. I don't know for sure, but I have dealt on numerous occasions with federal agencies (Justice, EPA, DOE, DOD) and there is the anti-state bias. Again, that does not justify their actions.

The feds are supposed to rely on the state documents when it comes to stuff like legal name changes. There's no such thing as a legal name change in federal courts. There's no problems here over jurisdictions. But, if they require documents from the country of origin... and those documents are not consistent (differences in names, sex etc), that could easily pose problems in processing.

IDK what the procedure is when "the country you're immigrating from says you're John Doe and male, whereas the state of CA says your Jane Doe and female"- knowing immigration, I doubt its a contingency they planed for when they designed their procedures. Most people would simply never assume such a problem could arise.

What makes the situation confusing is we're also dealing with the state of CA, unlike most states where they have rules or policies defining legal sex status (i.e. texas goes by what chromosomes you have, NJ goes by whether or not you've had SRS, etc) CA has no such rules. You basically go in front of a judge at a hearing, present your case and the judge issues a court order proving your legal sex status- but it doesn't require SRS. But, if someone has had SRS- and can prove they had SRS, then they meet all the federal requirements for changing your sex on file with the feds. Homeland security will issue postops a female passport, SSA will update their databases- etc. I don't know if the feds (when dealing with US citizens) will care if CA has issued a gender change court order, but they will care that the individual had SRS and can prove they had SRS. Someone correct me if I am wrong here, but I seem to recall that the feds will even issue new documents for someone who cannot change their birth certificate (i.e. people born in Ohio). A postop born in Ohio can still get a female passport, can still get a femaler marker on their SSA database entry- because they can prove to the feds they've had srs.

The problem is when clerk's don't know what they're talking about/doing. This can go both ways, members here have reported getting female documents from states w/out SRS, using intentionally vague surgeon letters saying "feminization surgery" instead of "sex change surgery", but its the luck of the draw, not all clerks would fall for that... and some clerks would think that any time of gender change is impossible (Even when that's clearly not true).

[SarahG]

I would seriously contact her boss or the state attorney's office about your complaint.

Write a letter girl! Let them have it!

Agreed! It was grossly inappropriate for someone to start asserting their views like that. What she said about it "not being real" has nothing to do with her job, and was an abuse of power.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Wait girl... just wait ... you ca reapply and try again with a more open minded individual.

I would seriously contact her boss or the state attorney's office about your complaint.

Write a letter girl! Let them have it!

The problem when re-applying is that the BCIS does keep records of everything. Meaning, past applications and reasons/grounds for denial on record. Her best bet is to consult her case with an immigration attorney (like someone has mentioned) and see if she can sue that girl and the BCIS for discrimination.

I have known post op girls who went back to the Philippines and have everything - Birth Certificate and passport sex forged/altered (paid huge amounts of money to individuals working at Department of Foreign Affairs who issues passport and Census who issues birth certificate. "Redtape" is very popular in the PI due to the country's poor economy. People are always looking to make a quick buck). So when they get married this wouldn't be a problem. My 2cent..

PS. I said forged because it's nearly impossible to go to census and have them legally change your BC after explaining to them you had srs. And likewise, go to Foreign Affairs and have them change sex on your passport. However difficult it seems, some post op ts have done it.

~Kisses.

HTG

[justatransgirl]

------------

[T Oracle]

by the way I taught its allowed in the Philippines to change your gender from Male to Female also your name could be change but will be a long process go tru medical and supreme court. Many Filipina girls have successly change their papers from Male to Female from what I saw in the news in Manila.

There have been cases where regional courts in the Philippines approved such changes only for this to be reject, often years later by the Supreme Court.

Trans individuals do not get to change their birth regisrtry entry (and so PI passport). Intersex can as long as they can prove a mistake has been made i.e. it's NOT a change of gender but correction of an inaccuracy in a record.

In JD's case I would check with a legal expert on US immigration to see what legal route should be applied and proceed from there.

In DF's case, I believe she was born in Brasil. I also believe Brasil allows change of birth certificate. So that would probably be change birth certificate first, then passport change should be straight forward.

Harajuku, that was an interesting link - thanks.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

No offense Hara, but for someone who wants to be legal here, forging the papers is not a good idea. All it would take is one problem to be permanently denied US citizenship. It's better to fight this through the court if necessary.



Well I wasn't really saying Julianna should have forged her papers before she went and faced BCIS. But I was inciting that other post op transgenders from the Philippines (who now all live abroad) have (Yes it's not impossible). And they got married without much scrutiny with immigration because their papers were "consistent". But unfortunately right now, immigration 'thinks' she is marrying for citizenship (like most fixed marriages - which BCIS is cracking down) which hardly is the case.

Also, the Philippines despite being accepting of gays and transgenders still lives in the middle ages in terms of granting one to change his/her birth certificate/passport etc unlike here in the US. And I don't see that changing any time soon either. But there are ways around it. Is all. ;)

Oh and you're welcome T Oracle.

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

I had a talk with my immigration lawyers and they said that it's totally fine if I had my sex written as Male. Although, they should have acknowledged my court order, my lawyers said. All I have to do is when I am scheduled for my interview next time is make sure I have all the important documents with me. I also hope that the immigration officer that would be interviewing us is not gender biased, a transphobic person or someone who's just close minded and prejudice.

[Helvis2012]

Well first there is the whole USA = Biblebashers thing... To most getting a tattoo or a nose job is tampering with creation and you will be smited...
What does this mean? Are you referring to Christian fundamentalists? Also, you say, to most getting a tattoo...." Again, to whom are you making reference? The same religious nuts you call Biblebashers? Or, are you calling everyone in the USA a Biblebasher? I don't think you can say "to most" since tattoos and comestic surgery are so popular in the US.

Second the attitude displayed by other girls mainly those who say they want to be treated like any other girl but as soon as someone shows interest in a girl begining their transition they scream out in self hate "FAG"
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.


Then there are those who go on Jerry Springer type shows and fuck up 95% of the efforts of other tgirls by whoring out their souls.. (Note I find Prostitution honorable) people who turn up on that show and say "Im really a MAN" should be called Sir/Mr forever...

Times can rough for a person who routinely faces discrimination. A quick appearance on a freakshow like Springer might enable a person to do things they couldn't accomplish before.....like pay the bills. Whatever the moral costs of such a foray, the price must be paid by the person involved and no one else. You seem to point your finger at the victim instead of society's prejudices that force people to make decisions they might not have to if we were truly living in a free society. Also, saying you think prostitution is honorable is also curious since it forces people in dangerous situations where their mental health, physical health, spiritual well-being and legal standing in the communities in which they live are all under constant attack. Honorable? When the girls are put at such a risk?
You can acknowledge some must do whatever it takes to survive and thrive but until the real root of these troubles is confronted(IGNORANCE/PREJUDICE) the same shit will continue.



This is a recording. :2cent

[Shining Star]

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

At the rate things are going in some areas of the United States one can have two "mothers" and or "fathers", along with a bewildering array of other choices that defy the laws of biology. Most if not all laws regarding such changes are made in view of making life for the "parents" of the child eaiser, much like the destruction or sealing of an adopted infants first and true BC, and the issuance of another listing the information of the adpotive parent or parents.

[T Oracle]

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

At the rate things are going in some areas of the United States one can have two "mothers" and or "fathers", along with a bewildering array of other choices that defy the laws of biology. Most if not all laws regarding such changes are made in view of making life for the "parents" of the child eaiser, much like the destruction or sealing of an adopted infants first and true BC, and the issuance of another listing the information of the adpotive parent or parents.

True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.

Someone did a quick look at the bits between my my legs and said something like "Congratulations! It's a boy."

It?

Congratulations? Because you mangaed not to produce a girl, but a boy?

If the entire human population managed to get born male, the human race would die out.

There's simple facts that you record at a child's birth. It's genitals look like IT is male. Or IT is female.

Chromosome test around birth? Nope!

SRY receptor test at birth? Nope!

CBX2 test at birth? Are you joking?

Simple. A birth certificate is where some adult looked at your genitals and said " IT'S A ...."

[BrendaQG]

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

[SarahG]

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

Identification documents routinely require information that is, as far as the state is concerned- are entirely irrelevant.

It's unreasonable to require identification documents list sex status, hair color, or eye color. Yet depending on what the document is, or who is issuing it- they will ask such pointless questions.

Take hair color, in addition to it being 100% irrelevant from a policy/procedural point of view, a vast portion of the population changes their hair color on a frequent basis due to having it dyed (to say nothing of people who go gray from old age). Hair color does not impact how the state treats a given person, nor is it a reliable way to identify someone.

Our country does not track gender in its documentation. It does track sex-status however. Yet even here, our documents are grossly inaccurate because they force bureaucratic clerks to pick between a mere two options: "male" or "female." Even if we agreed on how sex status was legally defined (which, we don't- many states have different interpretations on this point), this leaves no way to attribute a sex to, say, people with abnormal genitalia (i.e. hermaphrodites), or people with abnormal chromosomal makeup (xxx, xyx, xyy etc).. This shows the absurdity of the process, but as far as the idiot clerks are concerned- if there is a space on the form for it, it has to be answered even if it is of no value to the governments' ability to do their jobs/duties.

Somebody needs to clean house and remove the purposeless things governments track in their data mining. It's as simple as, if they need to know- they need to know. But if they don't need to know, there's no reason to invade peoples' privacy to add to the purposeless information stored in large governmental databases.

[daleach]

Wow, that's fucked up. It's cool that you resolved in yourself to never be at the affect of anyone else's narrow mindedness but, that lady was so fucking wrong for the way she treated you. Damn.

[BLKGSXR]

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.Firstly can you stop acting like you know everything....Aisha


Jules Stay strong,its an inconvience of what is happening but look at the Long term of this happening-You will be able to stay in the US with your husband :peanutbutter ...Gender Sex defined by law is an etchy subject.

[BrendaQG]

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

Identification documents routinely require information that is, as far as the state is concerned- are entirely irrelevant.

Exactly. I think the pure logic of it is something that we could use to convince non trans people. Why does the govt. need to know what's in your pants? Why is it that a document which is not really a secure form of ID has such importance? Does big brother have a good reason for knowing this information?

The only reason I can see for using a BC as identification, and continuing to even record birth sex is simply because it's a tradition to do so. :-?

A Social Security Card and Drivers License that Identify who a person is NOW is what matters...not what they were a couple decades ago. Any ID that called Juliana, or anyone like her, a male would be totally ridiculous.

[Shining Star]

*Again*

For the purposes of immigration, passports and other federal benefits, the United States government requires TWO documents (among others).

The first to prove one is a United States citizen or otherwise entitled to possess a passport issued by this country.

Another document is required to prove one's ID.

The two are NOT the same in most cases.

By statue the only persons allowed to possess a US passport are those born in the United States (citizens), it possessions, territories, lands and dominions (for the most part). There are others such as those born to American citizen parents living abroad, but we're not on that right now.

A SS number or state issued ID does NOT prove country of birth, or citizenship. Passports existed for about one hundred years in the United States before the Social Security Administration was created, and probably equally as long or longer before the first drivers licenses were issued.

The United States government probably does not give that much of a hoot about what is "between one's legs", as it were, but it DOES care about consistency in documents presented when requesting benefits.

If one's name is different from what is on one's BC, the result would have been the same as above (rejection of application, hopefully minus the nasty attitude), unless one presented an official copy of a court order granting the name change, or same of marriage license if the change was due to marriage.

Gender as a variable has existed with government "databases" for along as governments have been keeping records, and serves many useful functions. Indeed in the case of criminal identity theft or impersonation, being able to prove one is not of the same gender as the suspect may be the only way to clear up the matter easily.

As also stated previously, the United States immigration system long has had a policy in place for dealing with transgender persons. If one presents the proper papers (a BC and proper medical records), a new passport will be issued.

If there is any fault, and one is not sure that is the proper word, with the above, is no one considered in the future there would be large numbers of "non-op" or very long term pre-op transgender persons.

[GRANTdMAN]

I had a talk with my immigration lawyers and they said that it's totally fine if I had my sex written as Male. Although, they should have acknowledged my court order, my lawyers said. All I have to do is when I am scheduled for my interview next time is make sure I have all the important documents with me. I also hope that the immigration officer that would be interviewing us is not gender biased, a transphobic person or someone who's just close minded and prejudice.

May I ask what basis you are using to adjust your status to legal residency in CA?

[GRANTdMAN]

I had a talk with my immigration lawyers and they said that it's totally fine if I had my sex written as Male. Although, they should have acknowledged my court order, my lawyers said. All I have to do is when I am scheduled for my interview next time is make sure I have all the important documents with me. I also hope that the immigration officer that would be interviewing us is not gender biased, a transphobic person or someone who's just close minded and prejudice.

May I ask what basis you are using to adjust your status to legal residency in CA?

Marriage based petition? Isn't transexual to man marriage considered as same sex marriage? Sorry, kind of thinking about my friend Anelle who married a Citizen in Sacramento but was denied adjustment of status

[Shining Star]

Because of the "Defense of Marriage Act", the United States federal government does not recongise "gay" marriages. Only marriages between and "man" and a "woman" are considered vaild for federal benefit purposes.

[peggygee]

Marriage based petition? Isn't transexual to man marriage considered as same sex marriage?

That depends.

If the woman is a pre op transsexual and gets married in a state that
allows it, that would be deemed a same sex marriage, if she is post op
and has had her birth certificate amended that would constitute a
mariage between a man and a woman, as such the Defense of Marriage
Act (DOMA) does not apply to post op women.

As regards the point under discussion, marriage is a family law-based
concept and family law is governed by state law, not federal.

While immigration law is federal, the Citizenship and Immigration
Services looks to the law of the state where the marriage was entered
into to determine whether the marriage is valid.

Thus in the states where a woman is able to have her birth certificate
amended to be congruent with her gender after GRS, and she is
permitted by that state to marry, then the federal governmennt will
recognize the marriage.

As an aside the vast majority of states and nations allow the afore-
mentioned to occur.

This has been borne out in re Lovo-Lara, 23 I&N Dec. 746 (BIA 2005).
This was a case before the Board of Immigration Appeals which
adjuducated that post operative women were indeed women for
purposes of immigration and marriage.

Lovo-Lara was a post op transsexual in North Carolina, a state that allows
for the amending of birth certificates following GRS, and allows marriages
as well.

Another relevant case is re Widener, A95-347-685, 2004 WL 2375065
(BIA Sept. 21, 2004).

Esperanza Widener was born biologically male in the Philippines. She had
sex reassignment surgery in the Philippines and received a court order
there changing her sex and her name.

The Board of Immigration Appeals also ruled in her favor.

There are many other cases where the Citizenship and Immigration
Services has ruled in favor of post op women vis-a-vis marriage and
immigration.

However there has been no precedence set for allowing pre op or same
sex marriage to be allowed for immigration purposes at this point in time.