Death Penalty

[JamesHunt]

Should prisoners on death row suffer when given the death penalty, or should they go out 'out of it?'

Execution - Horizon: How To Kill A Human Being
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do9VLZCHlN0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7qK89oHnGI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPz_Qbjf330&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vnBsDtoyKc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo1RTebuonk&feature=related

[trish]

I would rather see the penalty carried out efficiently, quickly and professionally. I see nothing wrong with an old fashioned firing squad.

[Nowhere]

There is an ethical problem with the death penalty:

Mistakes.

There have been numerous people exonerated after being convicted and there will be more in the future. The system is not perfect, and that will aways be a biproduct of a good, but still human, system.

Don't get me wrong, most aren't, and most people convicted earn their punishment, but...

If you are to be for it, you have to accept upon your own conscience that you will have a number of innocent people killed as a consequence.

It might only be a handful of people over time, but it will occur.

So, if you believe in it, you have to believe those innocent deaths are fine, in the grand scheme of things.

I really haven't heard one person who is for the death penalty respond to that statement honestly yet.

[Dino Velvet]

I believe in the Death Penalty but I don't see a reason to make them suffer. Does anybody know why the Night Stalker, Richard Ramirez, is still alive? He's like the poster boy for the Death Penalty.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg278/msauce27/Richard20Ramirez.gif

[JamesHunt]

I would rather see the penalty carried out efficiently, quickly and professionally. I see nothing wrong with an old fashioned firing squad.

in 1/5

"recently, firing squads have been deemed unreliable by the vietnamese government"

bizarre, maybe the vietnamese firing squads have poor eyesight :roll:

[fred41]

There is an ethical problem with the death penalty:

Mistakes.

There have been numerous people exonerated after being convicted and there will be more in the future. The system is not perfect, and that will aways be a biproduct of a good, but still human, system.

Don't get me wrong, most aren't, and most people convicted earn their punishment, but...

If you are to be for it, you have to accept upon your own conscience that you will have a number of innocent people killed as a consequence.




It might only be a handful of people over time, but it will occur.

So, if you believe in it, you have to believe those innocent deaths are fine, in the grand scheme of things.

I really haven't heard one person who is for the death penalty respond to that statement honestly yet.

Then allow me to be the first ....and it doesn't have to be that way. There are cases that are way, way beyond a reasonable doubt - where the perpetrator DEFINITELY did it. You can be FOR the death penalty..but agree that the criteria for using it would be way narrower than it might be used for now (instead of not at all)


.......by the way...technically - the guillotine is pretty humane, it just doesn't look that way.

[trish]

Personally, I'm ambiguous about the death penalty. I answered as I did, because I think regardless of whether the prisoner is innocent or guilty, the penalty should be carried out professionally.

Unfortunately juries don't return degrees of probable guilt. They return a verdict of innocent or guilty. So inevitably innocent people are found guilty and punish for crimes they didn't commit.

Death is irrevocable. But taking away years of freedom is also revocable. It always strikes me as odd, that a nation that claims to revere freedom is so quick to take it away from people as a punishment for crime. I'd rather take twelve lashes than twelve months. I'd rather be put to death and locked up forever. But then parole complicates the whole thing as well, doesn't it?

[justatransgirl]

Everyone should DIE, I'll go first. :-) :-)

In my next house we are going to have the "Armor Room" where I can display my suit of armor. And to go with it I think I'm going to build a simulated electric chair. I mean who do you know who has an electric chair? I was thinking of maybe hooking a stun gun up to it for fun!

LOL,
TS Jamie :-)

PS - JamesHunt - I like your new avatar... :-)

[baileyandkc]

Method of the murder is the method of execution!

Or bring back the Old West and lets have public hangings!

[Teydyn]

Better to NOT kill 100 guilty and "just" lock them up for life then kill 1 innocent.

[baileyandkc]

perhaps we need an island in the Pacific to dump convicted murderers..let them forage for food and kill each other...then there's no death penalty and no taxpayer expense for those serving life...
just transport the convicted murderers in and make sure the waters around the island are extremely shark infested!

[Danielle Foxx]

Cryonics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDsQU_D0lYY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuLjw8Arm88&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uBdO84VLQM&feature=related

Crazy? Fiction?

[hippifried]

Firing Squad destroys the heart
Lethal Injection poisons everything touched by the bloodstream
Poison Gas does the same thing
Electrocution wipes out everything.

These people's lives are forfeit, & they're healthy for the most part. Why not harvest the parts? Start with a lobotomy, then start taking what's needed as needed. They won't know the difference. When the vitals are gone, it's over. Think about it. You can take slices of liver forever. Kidneys one at a time. Pieces of this & pieces of that. It's all fresh. When you find a donee match for the heart, you go ahead & chop up the rest, ship it out, & start with the next one. Might as well make something about them worthwhile.

[justatransgirl]

Uhmmm... over 100 innocent people have been executed in the USA in recent years - and more were found innocent after they were executed.

Oops...

However I must say this from an experience that touched my life. A girl I once dated in high school was brutally raped and murdered by her ex-boyfriend (who was at one time my good friend) and another man. The boyfriend has spent the last 20+ years in prison. The other man was executed about 10 years ago.

In this case there was no question of innocence, though there was finger pointing between the suspects, and personally I think they both should have been executed. Three lives sadly wasted because of drugs and alcohol and the inability of men to keep their dicks in their pants.

Anyway - here's some links to the Innocence Project and Wiki for anyone who is interested.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[trish]

Firing Squad destroys the heart
Lethal Injection poisons everything touched by the bloodstream
Poison Gas does the same thing
Electrocution wipes out everything.

These people's lives are forfeit, & they're healthy for the most part. Why not harvest the parts? Start with a lobotomy, then start taking what's needed as needed. They won't know the difference. When the vitals are gone, it's over. Think about it. You can take slices of liver forever. Kidneys one at a time. Pieces of this & pieces of that. It's all fresh. When you find a donee match for the heart, you go ahead & chop up the rest, ship it out, & start with the next one. Might as well make something about them worthwhile.

This would be a boon for detective shows and murder mysteries because it provides great new plot lines. E.g. Bad guy frames good guy for murder because the bad guy needs a new heart (obviously), and the good guy is the perfect match.

[trish]

The cop on the Simpsons (is it officer Wiggens?) has said, "I'd rather see ten guilty men get a away scot free, then get up and chase them."

[SarahG]

I would rather see the penalty carried out efficiently, quickly and professionally. I see nothing wrong with an old fashioned firing squad.

The problem with firing squads is that they're routinely unreliable. Sometimes people take more than one shot to die, and in those cases you have to question whether the convicted is being subjected to unnecessary suffering.

I see nothing wrong with capital punishment on general terms, but I don't see why we have to use something that we KNOW to be unreliable to get the job done.

If we really cared about efficiency, unnecessary suffering, and cost- we would bring back the guillotine. Very fast, nearly painless way to go -but even that has had a history of mistakes. I can recall reading about one case from the French revolutionary period where someone was too fat for the guillotine machine and the blade fell on him- but because of the size of his neck, did not kill him. The executioner had to mount the machine and jump up & down on the blade to get it to slowly chop threw the victim's neck...

The Germans initially tried firing squads in their final solution, only they quickly found that it was unreliable, inefficient, and was unnecessarily draining the pscyhies of their soldiers. The holocaust of bullets (google it) killed hundreds of thousands (believe the current estimated figure is in the millions?) but there were so many instances where people were not dying in the first shot, that the Germans began to experiment with alternatives. The bean counters also quickly found that even using bullets becomes cost prohibitive under certain circumstances.

One of the alternatives they tried were mobile execution cars- basically buses or vans that would use the engine's exhaust gases to kill the occupiants locked in the back. The concept of a mobile execution machine has its advantages, especially if you're trying to kill a great number of people in far off locations... but the Germans abandoned it because of its inefficiency. As far as I know the concept of a mobile execution system ended with that concept...

Until now. The Chinese have been using firing squads to kill people by the thousands every year, and have realized that the Germans were right (engineering wise) more often than they were not... firing squads simply don't work and like the Germans, the Chinese have decided to experiment with alternatives and insodoing the Chinese have brought back the concept of a mobile execution machine.

A company in China is now taking buses and retrofitting them into mobile execution buses which are essentially nothing more than a mobile assembly line for lethal injection. 10 of these have been sold to the Chinese government so far, and the company is trying to get orders from other foreign governments (and so far, no one else has been willing to try the concept- probably because of the design's holocaust origins).

In case you're curious about ordering, the company's website is here:
http://www.jinguanauto.com/index_1.asp

If the Chinese find a mobile assembly line for lethal injection works (which in my guess, is precisely what they will find) then they're going to run into the same problem that the Germans had during their second holocaust... disposing of the bodies. A mobile execution bus may be able to quickly and efficiently kill convicted criminals at ease, but in a far off remote location a mobile vehicle will not be able to dispose of a great big pile of bodies on the go. This poses sanitation problems (its not like they can just dump a big pile of bodies in the countryside), especially if the Chinese do not first require the convicts to dig their own mass graves. Perhaps the same company will soon release a mobile incineration bus...

[SarahG]

Firing Squad destroys the heart
Lethal Injection poisons everything touched by the bloodstream
Poison Gas does the same thing
Electrocution wipes out everything.

These people's lives are forfeit, & they're healthy for the most part. Why not harvest the parts?

The potential ethical problem with that idea is that you start giving people or governments a reason to kill more people than they otherwise would... just for the body parts.

[baileyandkc]

and one of those sci fi movies where the psycho's body parts radiate evil in their new recipients, and the person receiving the body parts becomes possessed! :screwy

[JamesHunt]

Some Examples of Post-Furman Botched Executions

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/some-examples-post-furman-botched-executions

interesting the case of Allen Lee Davis who was executed for murder on May 11, 1982 Jacksonville, Florida murder of Nancy Weiler, who was three-months pregnant at the time. According to reports, Nancy Weiler, was "beaten almost beyond recognition" by Davis with a .357 Magnum, and hit over 25 times in the face and head. He was also convicted of killing Nancy Weiler's two daughters, Kristina (9, shot twice in the face) and Katherine (5, shot as she was trying to run away)

July 8, 1999. Florida. Allen Lee Davis. Electrocution. "Before he was pronounced dead ... the blood from his mouth had poured onto the collar of his white shirt, and the blood on his chest had spread to about the size of a dinner plate, even oozing through the buckle holes on the leather chest strap holding him to the chair."45 His execution was the first in Florida's new electric chair, built especially so it could accommodate a man Davis's size (approximately 350 pounds). Later, when another Florida death row inmate challenged the constitutionality of the electric chair, Florida Supreme Court Justice Leander Shaw commented that "the color photos of Davis depict a man who -- for all appearances -- was brutally tortured to death by the citizens of Florida."46 Justice Shaw also described the botched executions of Jesse Tafero and Pedro Medina (q.v.), calling the three executions "barbaric spectacles" and "acts more befitting a violent murderer than a civilized state."47 Justice Shaw included pictures of Davis's dead body in his opinion.48 The execution was witnessed by a Florida State Senator, Ginny Brown-Waite, who at first was "shocked" to see the blood, until she realized that the blood was forming the shape of a cross and that it was a message from God saying he supported the execution.49

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Lee_Davis

[Quiet Reflections]

Americans pride themselves on their human decency and common sense, yet the death penalty contradicts both. The country should reject such senseless cruelty.

-- Jamie Fellner, Human Rights Watch, 12/1/2005

[thx1138]

executions too expensive: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090307/ap_on_re_us/expensive_to_execute_2

[Ben]

Ron White Texas Death Penalty:

Ron White Texas Death Penalty - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgQRgT15f9U)

George Carlin on The Death Penalty:

George Carlin on The Death Penalty & 1% Banksters Laundering Drug Money .mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPun1wh-II0)

[Ben]

I believe in the Death Penalty but I don't see a reason to make them suffer. Does anybody know why the Night Stalker, Richard Ramirez, is still alive? He's like the poster boy for the Death Penalty.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg278/msauce27/Richard20Ramirez.gif

Ramirez, of course, died last year.

'The Night Stalker' Richard Ramirez has died - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHQvRvAtJ2w)

[Dino Velvet]

Ramirez was the poster boy for the Death Penalty as far as evil intent and carnage go. At the time of his death he still had appeals pending. Even if you are against the Death Penalty you can house him with the rest of the convicted felons and allow him to sweat from day to day. Prison is intended to punish those it does not intend to rehabilitate.

[francisfkudrow]

"Though the wise man's punishments may be light, this is not due to his compassion; though his penalties may be severe, this is not because he is cruel; he simply follows the custom appropriate to the time". --Orson Scott Card, Xenocide

Optimally, we would live in a society that didn't feel the need to put people to death for crimes, but we're not there yet. Since the death penalty is the "custom appropriate to the time", we should strive to make sure that the people who get sentenced to death are without any doubt guilty (not just the "reasonable doubt" standard necessary to convict), and that the punishment fits the crime.

[robertlouis]

"Though the wise man's punishments may be light, this is not due to his compassion; though his penalties may be severe, this is not because he is cruel; he simply follows the custom appropriate to the time". --Orson Scott Card, Xenocide

Optimally, we would live in a society that didn't feel the need to put people to death for crimes, but we're not there yet. Since the death penalty is the "custom appropriate to the time", we should strive to make sure that the people who get sentenced to death are without any doubt guilty (not just the "reasonable doubt" standard necessary to convict), and that the punishment fits the crime.

Although it is worth pointing out that the US is the only developed western nation which steadfastly clings to the death penalty as a last resort. Therefore, "the custom appropriate to the time" exists only in the US and in none of the other G7 members, all of which have lower homicide rates.

[Stavros]

But not Russia, where in principle executions are not carried out but where the death penalty remains an option for specific crimes, as is also the case in Israel although it is not a 'developed western nation'....

[robertlouis]

But not Russia, where in principle executions are not carried out but where the death penalty remains an option for specific crimes, as is also the case in Israel although it is not a 'developed western nation'....

That's why I deliberately chose the G7. Russia is 50 to 100 years from being civilised, whereas Israel, once you step away from their policies towards their neighbours, would arguably tick a lot of the boxes as a functioning democracy in a sea of tyrannies.

[TSBootyLondon]

In my honest opinion, it depends on the crime. Here in the UK we render the 'Human Rights' of the sick and twisted higher above the victim him/herself!

Example.... Ian Watkins, abused an 11 month old baby (Among others) and was video'd doing so. Gave his child victims hardcore drugs. Sick twisted fucker!
Lives the rest of his days in a maximum security prison at the expense of Tax payers.

Bring back the death penalty and let the bastard suffer for days! Resuscitate just as the final breath is drawn! and start the process again!

I just came across this list of Death Penalty crimes...

http://listverse.com/2010/08/01/10-crimes-of-men-on-death-row/

Vincent Brothers jumped out at me because in his case, get it over with quickly and be done with him..

I believe in an eye for an eye... do onto others etc....

There are so many sick and twisted people on this planet... In the UK we seem to just slap their wrists and reward them by allowing them to live, many reoffend!

I generally hand on heart wish that we had the death penalty in the UK for proven crimes of severity such as rape, murder and especially acts of cruelty and abuse upon children

x Bella

[iagodelgado]

In my honest opinion, it depends on the crime. Here in the UK we render the 'Human Rights' of the sick and twisted higher above the victim him/herself!

...

I generally hand on heart wish that we had the death penalty in the UK for proven crimes of severity such as rape, murder and especially acts of cruelty and abuse upon children

x Bella

I happen to agree with the death penalty.

It's clear to me we disagree fundamentally on when it should apply and how it should be applied.

It is NOT an eye for an eye. It is for the times when they have no chance of rehabilitation. In other words, when they get out, they are still simply people who are serious predators on normal human society.

[robertlouis]

In which case they don't get out. Life means life.

[runningdownthatdream]

I can speak to the 'justice' system here in Canada. While we don't have the death penalty we are still very very susceptible to the flaws of human nature which means that there are many people convicted and given preposterous sentences purely on circumstantial evidence, incompetent lawyers, an antiquated court process, and self-serving judges. Technology is not readily available to assist during trials and everyone - from defense lawyers, to prosecutors, to court clerks to judges seem to just be ok with that. Anyone who has gone through the system as a defendant knows the capacity for errors and practices that would be unacceptable in the corporate world are readily accepted in the courts. What it all boils down to is a highly fallible system where people can rarely be convicted without serious doubt as to whether they are actually guilty.

I believe the system needs to evolve along the same path as other advances in technology, medicine, and better understanding of mental health. However, here in Canada the current Conservative/Tory government holds to the tenet that a person who commits a crime isnt just a lawbreaker but also evil (as in biblically evil), irredeemable, and worthy only of derision. Little or no thought is given to reformation and indeed little thought is given to victims other than the enforcement of jail sentences. Incarceration therefore becomes just punitive - in the same way parents in the past beat their kids for wetting their beds instead of addressing the root cause of the issue.

Sadly, I don't believe this will change. As a society we are all the worse for it.

[runningdownthatdream]

In my honest opinion, it depends on the crime. Here in the UK we render the 'Human Rights' of the sick and twisted higher above the victim him/herself!

Example.... Ian Watkins, abused an 11 month old baby (Among others) and was video'd doing so. Gave his child victims hardcore drugs. Sick twisted fucker!
Lives the rest of his days in a maximum security prison at the expense of Tax payers.

Bring back the death penalty and let the bastard suffer for days! Resuscitate just as the final breath is drawn! and start the process again!

I just came across this list of Death Penalty crimes...

http://listverse.com/2010/08/01/10-crimes-of-men-on-death-row/

Vincent Brothers jumped out at me because in his case, get it over with quickly and be done with him..

I believe in an eye for an eye... do onto others etc....

There are so many sick and twisted people on this planet... In the UK we seem to just slap their wrists and reward them by allowing them to live, many reoffend!

I generally hand on heart wish that we had the death penalty in the UK for proven crimes of severity such as rape, murder and especially acts of cruelty and abuse upon children

x Bella

I'm confused by your stance - you say an eye for an eye yet you advocate death for rape?

What you've written above seems at odd with your other writings of peace and love - or is peace and love only for clients?

[robertlouis]

I can speak to the 'justice' system here in Canada. While we don't have the death penalty we are still very very susceptible to the flaws of human nature which means that there are many people convicted and given preposterous sentences purely on circumstantial evidence, incompetent lawyers, an antiquated court process, and self-serving judges. Technology is not readily available to assist during trials and everyone - from defense lawyers, to prosecutors, to court clerks to judges seem to just be ok with that. Anyone who has gone through the system as a defendant knows the capacity for errors and practices that would be unacceptable in the corporate world are readily accepted in the courts. What it all boils down to is a highly fallible system where people can rarely be convicted without serious doubt as to whether they are actually guilty.

I believe the system needs to evolve along the same path as other advances in technology, medicine, and better understanding of mental health. However, here in Canada the current Conservative/Tory government holds to the tenet that a person who commits a crime isnt just a lawbreaker but also evil (as in biblically evil), irredeemable, and worthy only of derision. Little or no thought is given to reformation and indeed little thought is given to victims other than the enforcement of jail sentences. Incarceration therefore becomes just punitive - in the same way parents in the past beat their kids for wetting their beds instead of addressing the root cause of the issue.

Sadly, I don't believe this will change. As a society we are all the worse for it.

Is there any political or popular desire to bring back the death penalty in Canada? There's a constituency for it in the UK, but I don't see it ever being reintroduced, even by the rather right-wing mob we have in power now.

Personally, I'm totally against it on two primary grounds: firstly a belief that the state should not become involved in what can only be considered judicial murder; and secondly that in the event of a single innocent person being wrongly executed any justification for the process falls completely.

[runningdownthatdream]

Is there any political or popular desire to bring back the death penalty in Canada? There's a constituency for it in the UK, but I don't see it ever being reintroduced, even by the rather right-wing mob we have in power now.

Personally, I'm totally against it on two primary grounds: firstly a belief that the state should not become involved in what can only be considered judicial murder; and secondly that in the event of a single innocent person being wrongly executed any justification for the process falls completely.

Believe it or not, death penalty talk seems to be on the rise in Canada. Our Conservative government has actually embraced the American concept of manadatory sentences effectively taking power away from the judiciary which is resulting in longer and longer jail sentences for minor crimes. They've modeled these sentences along the US system which oddly enough seems to be moving AWAY from mandatory sentences. From what i've read it would appear that the US is starting to pay attention to the increasing numbers of imprisoned citizens which is directly related to mandatory sentences for what used to be fairly minor crimes like theft and drug possession. However, our government seems to think the answer is jail more and more people for longer and longer terms for crimes that used to be considered minor. One can only assume that eventually they will push to reinstate the death penalty.

I don't believe the state has the moral authority to kill its citizens.

[Stavros]

That's why I deliberately chose the G7. Russia is 50 to 100 years from being civilised, whereas Israel, once you step away from their policies towards their neighbours, would arguably tick a lot of the boxes as a functioning democracy in a sea of tyrannies.

I find it hard to believe you wrote that about Russia. Perhaps it depends on how you define 'civilised'. I am assuming a legion of writers, musicians and intellectuals doesn't count much in the ingredients you put together to make a 'civilisation'...?

[robertlouis]

I find it hard to believe you wrote that about Russia. Perhaps it depends on how you define 'civilised'. I am assuming a legion of writers, musicians and intellectuals doesn't count much in the ingredients you put together to make a 'civilisation'...?

I'm referring to its current state, run by robber barons, horribly racist, actively persecuting gays, and civil liberties under siege by a venal and criminal government.

I dare say you could have put forward the same argument for Germany under the Nazis....

[Stavros]

In my honest opinion, it depends on the crime. Here in the UK we render the 'Human Rights' of the sick and twisted higher above the victim him/herself!

Example.... Ian Watkins, abused an 11 month old baby (Among others) and was video'd doing so. Gave his child victims hardcore drugs. Sick twisted fucker!
Lives the rest of his days in a maximum security prison at the expense of Tax payers.

Bring back the death penalty and let the bastard suffer for days! Resuscitate just as the final breath is drawn! and start the process again!

I just came across this list of Death Penalty crimes...

http://listverse.com/2010/08/01/10-crimes-of-men-on-death-row/

Vincent Brothers jumped out at me because in his case, get it over with quickly and be done with him..

I believe in an eye for an eye... do onto others etc....

There are so many sick and twisted people on this planet... In the UK we seem to just slap their wrists and reward them by allowing them to live, many reoffend!

I generally hand on heart wish that we had the death penalty in the UK for proven crimes of severity such as rape, murder and especially acts of cruelty and abuse upon children

x Bella

It reads to me like a failure to distinguish revenge from justice. Justice is a social response to the violation of the law on the basis that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused/convicted was responsible. What you don't deal with are miscarriages of justice -at the time, in 1985, Winston Silcott was pilloried in the press as a revolting police killer whose actions all but severed the head of a policeman during a riot on the Broadwater Farm estate -The Sun in particular went to town even before the verdict in the trial depicting him as a monster. Inconveniently for them and the justice system he wasn't even on the Broadwater Farm estate that night, and he was released from prison after serving 6 years- would he have been hanged if we still had the death penalty? Then you could add in the Birmingham Six convicted of the bombings in Birmingham in 1974 which accounted for the largest loss of life from bombing since World War II -16 years in prison for a crime they did not commit. And so on. As for human rights, perhaps you can agree that either we all have them, or nobody does -?

[Stavros]

I'm referring to its current state, run by robber barons, horribly racist, actively persecuting gays, and civil liberties under siege by a venal and criminal government.

I dare say you could have put forward the same argument for Germany under the Nazis....

I don't see how you can make a political judgement of selected Russians and then decide this disqualifies Russia as a whole as being 'civilised'. Presumably you could have done the same with the United Kingdom in the 1980s if you thought Margaret Thatcher was destroying the country -much as her acolytes said of the Labour Governments of 1966-1979....as I said, it depends on how you define civilisation; surely politics is but one aspect of that-?

[robertlouis]

I don't see how you can make a political judgement of selected Russians and then decide this disqualifies Russia as a whole as being 'civilised'. Presumably you could have done the same with the United Kingdom in the 1980s if you thought Margaret Thatcher was destroying the country -much as her acolytes said of the Labour Governments of 1966-1979....as I said, it depends on how you define civilisation; surely politics is but one aspect of that-?

I agree entirely, but as politics and the enactment of policy have a significantly greater impact on society whether that be through the agency of economics, social policy or ideology, that's probably where we should start rather than applaud past achievements in the arts.

But I take your point in relative terms in respect of Britain under Thatcher, and the Blair (and Cameron) governments' seemingly relentless assault on civil liberties.

[Prospero]

Are you considering the broad sweep then Stavros? I am breaking one of the cardinal rules on the Internet now be evoking the Nazis... but would you assess Germany as being a civilised place in the late 1930s and early 1940s? It was of course the nation that once created Bach, and Goethe and scores more of the great civilisational icons of the West. But during that period a huge part of the people turned their backs on civilised values. George Steiner I think coined the cliche about Nazis killing Jews by day and then going home to listen to Brahms or Beethoven.

I think that a nation held in thrall by Putin and his kleptocratic cronies - and which now allows and encourages (with the resurgence of Orthodox Christianity) the vicious victimisation of minority groups loses the right to be described as fully civilised. Though I admit that almost all of the great "civilisations" of history have been flawed. Do the Aztec qualify as a "civilisation" when at their very core was human sacrifice and combat?

[robertlouis]

Are you considering the broad sweep then Stavros? I am breaking one of the cardinal rules on the Internet now be evoking the Nazis... but would you assess Germany as being a civilised place in the late 1930s and early 1940s? It was of course the nation that once created Bach, and Goethe and scores more of the great civilisational icons of the West. But during that period a huge part of the people turned their backs on civilised values. George Steiner I think coined the cliche about Nazis killing Jews by day and then going home to listen to Brahms or Beethoven.

I think that a nation held in thrall by Putin and his kleptocratic cronies - and which now allows and encourages (with the resurgence of Orthodox Christianity) the vicious victimisation of minority groups loses the right to be described as fully civilised. Though I admit that almost all of the great "civilisations" of history have been flawed. Do the Aztec qualify as a "civilisation" when at their very core was human sacrifice and combat?

And no-one could deny the glories and achievements of Chinese civilisation and all the benefits that they have brought to the world. But was Mao "civilised"?

Or, come to that, Stalin?

[Prospero]

Athens had slaves

[LibertyHarkness]

welcome to the human race :) its in our nature as a species, always has and always will be. ..

[giovanni_hotel]

It you're poor and lack the financial means to pay for an adequate private legal defense, in the U.S. your chances of being convicted for a felony crime once charged are almost guaranteed.

Public defenders are adjuncts of the district attorney's office. They're all on the same team.

Recent history has shown that maybe HUNDREDS of prisoners have been wrongly convicted under death penalty statutes.

It's cheaper to keep prisoners alive than for the state to pay for the endless appeals, etc. to delay execution.

Of course there are people who deserve and belong in prison, but the death penalty in this country is outdated.

Life in prison with near solitary confinement for 20+ hours a day is hell on earth for most of us anyway.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

For all those that prefer "LIFE" imprisonment to "Execution", I submit that we provide for their sustenance and livelihood out of your income. I prefer not to support their need to breath air.

[Stavros]

Are you considering the broad sweep then Stavros? I am breaking one of the cardinal rules on the Internet now be evoking the Nazis... but would you assess Germany as being a civilised place in the late 1930s and early 1940s? It was of course the nation that once created Bach, and Goethe and scores more of the great civilisational icons of the West. But during that period a huge part of the people turned their backs on civilised values. George Steiner I think coined the cliche about Nazis killing Jews by day and then going home to listen to Brahms or Beethoven.

I think that a nation held in thrall by Putin and his kleptocratic cronies - and which now allows and encourages (with the resurgence of Orthodox Christianity) the vicious victimisation of minority groups loses the right to be described as fully civilised. Though I admit that almost all of the great "civilisations" of history have been flawed. Do the Aztec qualify as a "civilisation" when at their very core was human sacrifice and combat?

a) "The edifice of total war and of the death camps, of totalitarian torture and "the big lie", had its base, its contemporary triumphs, in the heart-lands of western culture. The spheres of Auschwitz-Birkenau and of the Beethoven recital, of the torture-cellar and the great library, were contiguous in space and time. Men could come home from their day's butchery and falsehood to weep over Rilke, or play Schubert..." (George Steiner, 'Introduction' to George Steiner: A Reader (Penguin Books, 1984, p11).

b) You may need to define your concept of civilisation before deciding Russia is no longer civilised. If you think Putin's Russia is peopled by kleptocrats, I wonder what you made of 'Yeltsin's Russia'. Is the UK so squeaky clean?
I seem to recall that in 2007 Tony Blair when he was Prime Minister was told by the Saudis that if the investigation by the Serious Fraud Office into bribes in BAE related to arms sales to Saudi Arabia was not halted, they would make another '7/7 that much easier, a blatant threat to murder British civilians which led Blair to put sufficient pressure on the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith that he intervened to stop the investigation -you might want to ask who runs the judiciary in this country, the Judiciary, the Prime Minister, or the government of Saudi Arabia.
The Russian government has passed a law making it illegal to promote homosexuality; the United Kingdom government introduced an amendment to the Local Government Act in 1986 in which it stated that local education authorities "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship..." Repealed in Scotland in 2000, in England and Wales in 2003.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/dec/21/bae.tonyblair
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/15/bae.armstrade

And so on.

c) "After Auschwitz, all European culture is garbage" (Adorno) -discuss.

[giovanni_hotel]

For all those that prefer "LIFE" imprisonment to "Execution", I submit that we provide for their sustenance and livelihood out of your income. I prefer not to support their need to breath air.


What are you talking about?? You already pay out of your taxes to incarcerate prison inmates.

It costs states MORE to keep prisoners on death row because of the cost of constant appeals than it does to give them life imprisonment anyway.

You don't wanna pay the price to house criminals in jail? Quit paying taxes. And go start your own country.