Grooby,Bob's Tgirls,Evil Angel etc must educate on silicone!

[LG]

Following the news of the death of yet another girl- Kelly Tavares- from injected industrial silicone, I feel something needs to be done.

According to my friend praetor (in another thread), the Brazilian Government has tried to raise awareness and even imposed punishments for the "bombadeiras" (those who inject silicone in the girls' bodies), but with no success.

I think now it is up to those who deal directly with these girls to take action and launch a major campaign to raise awareness. I am talking about the photographers, the other models, the people who run the websites and produced the DVDs- everyone involved in the porn and escorting industry. If the people who have made money by photographing these girls or putting them online can do this, they can give something substantial back to the TS community, especially in Brazil, where this problem is common and deaths occur frequently.

What do you think? I'd especially like to hear the views of Seanchai and others involved in the industry.


See also:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18576
http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/silicone/silicone-death.html
http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/silicone/ OR
http://theipowa.org/?q=book/export/html/2

AND

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=42079

Kelly Tavares, RIP
http://trannys.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/kelly20tavares20-2009.jpg

[LG]

I'm surprised that those who voted so far seem to think that the porn providers shouldn't take any action. Considering that these girls are pumping so that they look better and that they want to look better not just because it might make them feel better but because they feel that they will be more in demand for porn and escorting, I think the two are VERY related.

Girls like Kelly Tavares die because they want to become more beautiful so that more of us will want to see them or will desire them. I feel the issue involves all of us, including every single one of us in front of a PC or TV screen jacking off to TS porn.

And it wouldn't take much effort for a photographer to take the girls aside and have a short chat with them or hand them some info. If that can prevent the death of a girl like Kelly Tavares, I'm all for it and I'd be willing to pay $5 extra if/when I buy my next TS DVD to ensure it.

[Teydyn]

I like your effort, but i think its of no use.


I feel the issue involves all of us
It doesnt. Why should they listen to a photographer, when they dont listen to a doctor or their friends warning them?

[Jericho]

Yeah, they should.
I mean, they don't listen to governments, doctors, the deaths of their friends and the really hideous results, so they're bound to listen to those pillars of the establishment, pornographers.

Know where you're coming from, but...

The only way you'll stop it is to hand out free tits...And then they'll pump for a matching arse to go with them.

[flabbybody]

how could anyone vote no? cigarette companies shoudn't warn their customers about the health risks of smoking?

[LG]

I like your effort, but i think its of no use.


I feel the issue involves all of us
It doesnt. Why should they listen to a photographer, when they dont listen to a doctor or their friends warning them?

Good point. My answer: Because there's a difference between someone telling you that you mustn't do something and someone who pays your wages telling you that it would be stupid to do so.

Because these girls want to be beautiful and they want to be accepted. The acceptance and validation doesn't come from their doctor, it comes from the people who give them work because of their beauty.

An analogy: If you were a teenager and really, really wanted to date a girl who like tattooed guys (or bikers or whatever) would you still not think of getting one even if your folks told you it was dangerous? But if the girl you liked thought it was nasty, then you would never think of getting one.

And to flabbybody, I totally agree. As for Jericho...dude, you make me laugh sometimes...But I'm glad you get my point.

[praetor]

Truthfully they really know the risks, problems that silica causes to human body, but anyway, they take the risk and get injected the silica, to change to be a woman quickly.
Here in Brazil, the "bombadeiras" commit two kinds of crime, 'body injury' and 'illegal medicine practice', but they continues injecting silica in tgirls body, despite some have been arrested and convict.
We have campaings to advice, to alert to the risks, but they bet, they rely to luck.

[tsntx]

i voted no

its not the providers place to educate

girls are getting pumped bc of the horrible things guys on THIS site say.... i get called all kinds of bs... even tho my TRUE measurements are 36 30 42 ... bc guys feel that from head on my hips arent as protruding from my waist line and therefore i have "mans body, boys body, a brick, linebacker" etc etc etc
its bs like that cause other girls to do whatever it takes, regardless of the risks, so that THEY dont get called names and feel bad about themselves the way i have been

stupid is as stupid does and with all cosmetic work comes great risk.... some more than others
its important to educate YOURSELF and be ok w/ the risks

it is not up to the ppl that profit off these girls bodies to tell them "hey guys buy our product bc you look like a female but you cant enhance your look to actually look female"

its not gonna happen... esp as long as guys continue to insult girls w/o fake curves and fall all over the ones that have them

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/11/m_e7f5405eae2e254abf8c282d7582ade3.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/109/m_19c805f199ef369b36c103668ed71faf.jpg

i have natural curves and im working out and they are getting more and more pronounced as my waist gets smaller

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/114/m_58f0e1b3c4e00094efb561c16af351b7.jpg

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/52/m_b55d9f8dfefcc42d73529c93a868db64.jpg

[trannybanger]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

[TsJennifer]

Most of all the girls I know, know the risk and continue to get pumped with silicone. I feel that the reason for this is because there is no alternative that is affordable.

I also think that alot of the girls that are considering getting pumped with silicone see all these beautiful retouched pictures of these girls with curvy bodies and think I want that and can have that! What the girls dont see is the negative affect of silicon or the un retouched version of the pics. Where you can see the discoloration, dark stains, lumps, bumps, dents, drastic migration where the silicone has moved to other parts of the body or fallen down from there hips to there legs and ankles.

The think that the girls with silicone and have issues with it dont talk about it! They dont want anyone to know! Its a very hush hush issue.

I know of other girls that have died or had serious heath issues from silicone its quite sad.

[praetor]

most of all the girls I know, know the risk and continue to get pumped with silicone. I feel that the reason for this is because there is no alternative that is affordable.

I know of other girls that have died or had serious heath issues from silicone its quite sad.

I agree with you. They know and continuing pumping the body.

[LG]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

Perhaps, but what about the owners of the sites? I'm talking about people like Seanchai. I'm sure he wants to prevent the death of more young girls.


To Jen (tsntx): you look pretty damn good to me already girl and I think you have a point. But, bearing what you say in mind, these girls are trying to match up with an "ideal" which sells because that's what the fans/admirers want, and this is an ideal that is in turn shaped by pornography. Perhaps we need to be educated too, of course, but those who control the industry can do more.

I think it is the providers place to educate, just as modeling agencies, designers and fashion magazines have taken it upon themselves to deal with anorexia in their industry.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24035647/
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/26/anorexia.model/index.html
http://www.fashiongates.com/magazine/Code-fashion-models-anorexia.html

[trannybanger]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

Perhaps, but what about the owners of the sites? I'm talking about people like Seanchai. I'm sure he wants to prevent the death of more young girls.




Seanchai is a pornographer, and I am sure he is interested in preventing that as well.... it affects his bottom line.

[tsntx]

i thought of the arguement about fashion vs anorxia but just like the fashion industry the girls can see that the skinnier girls are getting more bookings and making more money

same w/ girls and their hips except that im not in porn and my reasons for wanting to get pumped has nothing to do w/ the girls in porn so like i said... its not the porn industries place

if the porn industry doesnt want the girls to go the cheapest route to get the desired body, then the porn industry shouldnt pay the girls with such cheap rates so they can afford to get the proper work done

i still want to have some pumping work done and was actually going to get some this weekend but money was tight this month and im still not sure i want to tackle the risks

[peggygee]

First and foremost, I would like to say how heart-wretching it is
to hear of another transwoman meeting such a tragic and ultimely
demise.

My sincerest comdolences to her family, loved ones, and friends.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/flora.jpg

While medical grade Silicon administered by a qualified and comptetent
professional in moderate quantities can yield safe and aesthetically
pleasing results, industrial grade or extremely high amounts should be
avoided at all costs.

There are a number of viable alternatives that a woman may utilize
to enhance her hips calves and other parts of the body.

We will be presenting an in-depth discussion on this soon.

Praetor, LG, thank you for bringing this important topic to the attention
of the forum.

[Solitary Brother]

You guys(men) on here dont understand the true nature of transexuals.
Most dont like their bodies BEFORE their transition since it usually looks male and will do ALMOST anything to change it.

LG your an ass.

[LG]

i thought of the arguement about fashion vs anorxia but just like the fashion industry the girls can see that the skinnier girls are getting more bookings and making more money

same w/ girls and their hips except that im not in porn and my reasons for wanting to get pumped has nothing to do w/ the girls in porn so like i said... its not the porn industries place

if the porn industry doesnt want the girls to go the cheapest route to get the desired body, then the porn industry shouldnt pay the girls with such cheap rates so they can afford to get the proper work done

i still want to have some pumping work done and was actually going to get some this weekend but money was tight this month and im still not sure i want to tackle the risks

I get your point. Anyway, I hope you don't get pumped or that if you do you find the best practitioner and take all the precautions. It's pretty risky and I don't think you need it. For what it's worth I'd rather you stay healthy and well than become really curvy at a risk to your health.

[GroobySteven]

I'm sorry to hear that about Kelly, I usually get first hand information on one of the girls dying and will check with Damazo to see what he has.

I'll answer LG's question first and then take exception with some of the other posters.

LG - I know where your coming from. I can only speak for myself and my company but we've tried. I've talked to girls personally over the years, I tried to instill into them that it's bad, I've posted horror stories and more recently we've launched the blog http://www.grooby.com/fallenangels/ (which unfortuantely will need an update) to promote awareness of how many TS's in this industry die. I've had friends die from silicone poisoning and it's a painful and horrible death.

Jennifer P's and Jennifer J's answer are both right as is Jerichos (and a few others). These girls are attaining to be beautiful and they take beauty as needing to have curvier asses and wider hips. Whether it's guys on forums like this, or other TS's (also on forums like this) putting down models because they're not feminine enough, whether it's being unable to get as many tricks or as many jobs in the industry that you want to point your finger at, the fact is, that they do know the dangers and they do it anyway. It's a risk that they are willing to take (any different from having unprotected sex to please a client or make a movie?). Personally, I feel a lot of it is competitive between transsexuals - I've seen them at it, putting each other down as "having a man ass" or likewise.

What can we do? What we've always done. We shoot models as they come, we don't encourage them to have any un-necessary surgery and have certainly told plenty in the past not to inject silicone, continue to treat each model as an individual. I don't think creating some sort of "group" of people is going to really to anything to help, LG. I just don't see them listening and really, what can we do? Stop working with those who have been pumped?

If this is going to change, it has to start with the girls educating each other. Again, I can only speak for my company but we'd never refuse a model over not having enough curves or suggest she'd get more work with the curves.

seanchai

[Legend]

You guys(men) on here dont understand the true nature of transexuals.
Most dont like their bodies BEFORE their transition since it usually looks male and will do ALMOST anything to change it.

http://i42.tinypic.com/xeq2w3.jpg

[Legend]

I don't think its up to those sites afterall their all about profit,i ultimately think its up to the girl to look after herself.

[GroobySteven]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

Obviously you know very little so maybe you should be quiet until you learn more. The models in "poverty stricken countries" (New York City? Texas?) get paid comparatively well and make a lot more from their adult work than from escorting. They also often make a relative payment from modeling that is higher than a Western model might.

Don't bother speaking when it's absolute rubbish that comes out of your trap - or from derailing this topic.

[GroobySteven]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

Perhaps, but what about the owners of the sites? I'm talking about people like Seanchai. I'm sure he wants to prevent the death of more young girls.




Seanchai is a pornographer, and I am sure he is interested in preventing that as well.... it affects his bottom line.

More absolute drivel. Don't comment about me unless you know a hell of a lot more about me. Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
Personally, it does affect me because I've tried to promote to models not to do it and I hate to see wasted lives.
So fuck off, with your crap.

[LG]

You guys(men) on here dont understand the true nature of transexuals.
Most dont like their bodies BEFORE their transition since it usually looks male and will do ALMOST anything to change it.

LG your an ass.

No, it's "LG, you're an ass", Solitary Brother, you illiterate clod. How dare you accuse me of insensitivity after insulting Britney Boykins (and Jen) the way you did in another thread?

What's more you missed the point of the thread completely.

:roll:

[trannybanger]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

Obviously you know very little so maybe you should be quiet until you learn more. The models in "poverty stricken countries" (New York City? Texas?) get paid comparatively well and make a lot more from their adult work than from escorting. They also often make a relative payment from modeling that is higher than a Western model might.

Don't bother speaking when it's absolute rubbish that comes out of your trap - or from derailing this topic.

Touch a nerve did I? I think you may be able to try that with some of the other boys in the sandbox my friend, but not with me. My comments were directly related to this topic.

You ARE a PORNOGRAPHER. It is a career path that doesn't really take a skill nor much intelligence, it is what some would refer to as a bottomfeeder type of career. Lets not pretend that it is work you do to bring about the better good to anyone involved other than yourself. That is my point, regardless of if the girls would listen or not.

And in regards to these girls in South America, be honest, if they were to educate themselves better in general you wouldn't be able to get the material at such a low price. Please don't patronize us saying they are payed relatively well. This thread was begun in regards to a Brazilian girl, would you not agree that is a poverty stricken country? Please enlighten us to the great pay you are handing out for a shoot. I am sure most people would feel it is a viable plan to skyrocket to prosperity.

[Danielle Foxx]

Most of all the girls I know, know the risk and continue to get pumped with silicone. I feel that the reason for this is because there is no alternative that is affordable.

I also think that alot of the girls that are considering getting pumped with silicone see all these beautiful retouched pictures of these girls with curvy bodies and think I want that and can have that! What the girls dont see is the negative affect of silicon or the un retouched version of the pics. Where you can see the discoloration, dark stains, lumps, bumps, dents, drastic migration where the silicone has moved to other parts of the body or fallen down from there hips to there legs and ankles.

The think that the girls with silicone and have issues with it dont talk about it! They dont want anyone to know! Its a very hush hush issue.

I know of other girls that have died or had serious heath issues from silicone its quite sad.

When me and Jennifer hung out here in Los Angeles I warned her about silicone. I am not going to discuss it publicly because honestly I have not have tremendous issues with my hips. Altho I have had some, normal things such as a bit of discoloration and migration, but nothing too drastic.

With everything that you do to your body you must research it and understand the risks. There are very good people who do it, only a few, and a doctor in mexico who's work can be seen on most of your well known T-Girls.

Most girls who get this done are educated to do it little by little, but when too much is injected at once you get migration.

It is an issue that has been talked about many times on HA. I personally encourage girls not to do it, but some need it.

I recently met a nurse in a small cosmetic procedure office in Beverly hills who is doing it legally in a safe and clean small office.

I don't think it's the directors business to educate anyone. Even girls who are never in this scene get it done. More so in the "Drag/Illusion" scene. Some girls I know get their face work with silicone on their brow bones, on the bridge of their nose, chin, even underneeth their eyes... Free flowing silicone only mm from their eyes...

It's definitely a bad trend, but as transsexualism becomes more "popular and accepted " we will see a shift in the expectations society has from us. We will see girls just being natural and accepting themselves a lot more.

[trannybanger]

Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
.

Good to know you have calculated disposability into the P&L

[GroobySteven]

Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
.

Good to know you have calculated disposability into the P&L

You are an ass.
Your other message isn't even worth replying to in this topic. If you really want to question my skill and intelligence and "bottom feeding" bring it up in another topic and maybe I'll deem to answer it.

It's easy enough to find out what we pay models but I'll leave that up to you to find out as you obviously know so little.

[LG]

I'm sorry to hear that about Kelly, I usually get first hand information on one of the girls dying and will check with Damazo to see what he has.

I'll answer LG's question first and then take exception with some of the other posters.

LG - I know where your coming from. I can only speak for myself and my company but we've tried. I've talked to girls personally over the years, I tried to instill into them that it's bad, I've posted horror stories and more recently we've launched the blog http://www.grooby.com/fallenangels/ (which unfortuantely will need an update) to promote awareness of how many TS's in this industry die. I've had friends die from silicone poisoning and it's a painful and horrible death.

Jennifer P's and Jennifer J's answer are both right as is Jerichos (and a few others). These girls are attaining to be beautiful and they take beauty as needing to have curvier asses and wider hips. Whether it's guys on forums like this, or other TS's (also on forums like this) putting down models because they're not feminine enough, whether it's being unable to get as many tricks or as many jobs in the industry that you want to point your finger at, the fact is, that they do know the dangers and they do it anyway. It's a risk that they are willing to take (any different from having unprotected sex to please a client or make a movie?). Personally, I feel a lot of it is competitive between transsexuals - I've seen them at it, putting each other down as "having a man ass" or likewise.

What can we do? What we've always done. We shoot models as they come, we don't encourage them to have any un-necessary surgery and have certainly told plenty in the past not to inject silicone, continue to treat each model as an individual. I don't think creating some sort of "group" of people is going to really to anything to help, LG. I just don't see them listening and really, what can we do? Stop working with those who have been pumped?

If this is going to change, it has to start with the girls educating each other. Again, I can only speak for my company but we'd never refuse a model over not having enough curves or suggest she'd get more work with the curves.

seanchai

Thanks for the answer, seanchai. I was hoping you'd give your input here. I understand what you say about not being able to help much. But I also believe that you do care about the girls, and not just because they help you to make money, and hope that you will find a way to help.

I accept that the girls may be aware that pumping has some risks although perhaps they may not know the true nature of these risks and how likely it is that there may be serious complications. I think that also they need to be told that it's okay not to pump, that it's not necessary, that in the long term it may make them uglier and less shapely and far less feminine if it goes wrong.

Finally, I won't comment on some of the other posts, but feel that if we all discuss things a little calmly this is becoming an interesting debate on the social responsibilities of the porn industry (and those who buy into it- ie. the "admirers").

[meghanchavalier]

I have posted this article to the Stopping The Hate website about my own personal experience with silicone injections. Normally I don't discuss the subject, but after hearing about another young transgender woman dying from the injections I thought it best to talk about it openly in hopes that it might help other young transgender women from ever considering loose silicone injections as an option.

http://stoppingthehate.com/News-Article246_The_Dangers_Of_Loose_Silicone_Injection s_My_Own_Personal_Horror_Story_By_Meghan_Chavalier .htm

Peace and I hope this helps on the subject at hand
Meghan

[LG]

With everything that you do to your body you must research it and understand the risks.

Okay, but which of the girls who pump do this properly, Danielle? It's like reading the small print on an instruction manual- I'm guessing nobody does this. Of course if you blow the appliance it's your fault, but here we're talking about people's lives and not just a microwave.

And the girls should be told that pumping also has aesthetic risks. Jennifer made a good point here:


I also think that alot of the girls that are considering getting pumped with silicone see all these beautiful retouched pictures of these girls with curvy bodies and think I want that and can have that! What the girls dont see is the negative affect of silicon or the un retouched version of the pics. Where you can see the discoloration, dark stains, lumps, bumps, dents, drastic migration where the silicone has moved to other parts of the body or fallen down from there hips to there legs and ankles.

[GroobySteven]

LG, with all due respect, I think your being a little naive or maybe just over romantic.
Every TS in Brazil whether they knew her or not, will know that this girl died of silicone poisoning - and they will know other girls who have died of silicone poisoning, of AIDS, murdered and other lifestyle causes. They know how dangerous it is - and they know it's a risk yet they're still going to do it.

Nothing you or I say or do, will change that. It's like yelling at a brick wall. They will agree, they will understand but ultimately they will take the risk. Obviously not every girl will - but the ones who will ... will.

Sad yes.
Avoidable yes.
Realistically being able to stop it? Unlikely.

[trannybanger]

Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
.

Good to know you have calculated disposability into the P&L

You are an ass.
Your other message isn't even worth replying to in this topic. If you really want to question my skill and intelligence and "bottom feeding" bring it up in another topic and maybe I'll deem to answer it.

It's easy enough to find out what we pay models but I'll leave that up to you to find out as you obviously know so little.

Isn't even worth replying to? Thanks for the compliment. And just to make sure you are clear, I don't believe I ever said you had skill or intelligence, much less question it. What you do or how you do it makes no difference to me, and I have no concern really to know the exact amount you are paying girls in Brazil. I know its not much, and so do you. I just really loathe a self rightous charlatan. I am sure you understand.

[LG]

I have posted this article to the Stopping The Hate website about my own personal experience with silicone injections. Normally I don't discuss the subject, but after hearing about another young transgender woman dying from the injections I thought it best to talk about it openly in hopes that it might help other young transgender women from ever considering loose silicone injections as an option.

http://stoppingthehate.com/News-Article246_The_Dangers_Of_Loose_Silicone_Injection s_My_Own_Personal_Horror_Story_By_Meghan_Chavalier .htm

Peace and I hope this helps on the subject at hand
Meghan

Thanks for your comments and the link, Meghan. Your experiences sound shocking. I hope others read the article and take note.

Congrats on your Lifetime Achievement Award, by the way. I can't think of anyone who could deserve more.

[meghanchavalier]

I just hope my experience might help change one young transgender woman's mind.

[LG]

LG, with all due respect, I think your being a little naive or maybe just over romantic.
Every TS in Brazil whether they knew her or not, will know that this girl died of silicone poisoning - and they will know other girls who have died of silicone poisoning, of AIDS, murdered and other lifestyle causes. They know how dangerous it is - and they know it's a risk yet they're still going to do it.

Nothing you or I say or do, will change that. It's like yelling at a brick wall. They will agree, they will understand but ultimately they will take the risk. Obviously not every girl will - but the ones who will ... will.

Sad yes.
Avoidable yes.
Realistically being able to stop it? Unlikely.

I've always been romantic, seanchai. I like to think that people can make a difference.

Sadly you are probably right in this case. But, mate, even if it's like yelling at a brick wall, yell away. At least you've tried. And maybe, just maybe, it will save a life, even if it's just one.

Romantic? Yes.
Naive? Maybe.
Worth doing? Why not?

[Odelay]

The irony is pretty rich in this thread.

A guy who uses the nickname "Trannybanger" is lecturing others about being a bottom feeder and not treating transsexuals right.

And sorry TSJennifer, I have no bone to pick with you, but I'm not sure you're the right messenger for a point about how "retouched pictures" can influence other transsexuals to get unsafe silicon injections.

[TsJennifer]

Most of all the girls I know, know the risk and continue to get pumped with silicone. I feel that the reason for this is because there is no alternative that is affordable.

I also think that alot of the girls that are considering getting pumped with silicone see all these beautiful retouched pictures of these girls with curvy bodies and think I want that and can have that! What the girls dont see is the negative affect of silicon or the un retouched version of the pics. Where you can see the discoloration, dark stains, lumps, bumps, dents, drastic migration where the silicone has moved to other parts of the body or fallen down from there hips to there legs and ankles.

The think that the girls with silicone and have issues with it dont talk about it! They dont want anyone to know! Its a very hush hush issue.

I know of other girls that have died or had serious heath issues from silicone its quite sad.

When me and Jennifer hung out here in Los Angeles I warned her about silicone. I am not going to discuss it publicly because honestly I have not have tremendous issues with my hips. Altho I have had some, normal things such as a bit of discoloration and migration, but nothing too drastic.

With everything that you do to your body you must research it and understand the risks. There are very good people who do it, only a few, and a doctor in mexico who's work can be seen on most of your well known T-Girls.

Most girls who get this done are educated to do it little by little, but when too much is injected at once you get migration.

It is an issue that has been talked about many times on HA. I personally encourage girls not to do it, but some need it.

I recently met a nurse in a small cosmetic procedure office in Beverly hills who is doing it legally in a safe and clean small office.

I don't think it's the directors business to educate anyone. Even girls who are never in this scene get it done. More so in the "Drag/Illusion" scene. Some girls I know get their face work with silicone on their brow bones, on the bridge of their nose, chin, even underneeth their eyes... Free flowing silicone only mm from their eyes...

It's definitely a bad trend, but as transsexualism becomes more "popular and accepted " we will see a shift in the expectations society has from us. We will see girls just being natural and accepting themselves a lot more.

You are right. You and other girls have warned me and have been honest with me with there issues with silicone and I appreciate it !

[trannybanger]

The irony is pretty rich in this thread.

A guy who uses the nickname "Trannybanger" is lecturing others about being a bottom feeder and not treating transsexuals right.
.

Listen Beck, this is a porn board, I get the irony of the whole thing, which is why my name is what I am. Hypocrite is something I am not. But you know really nothing of me or what I do, nor how I treat transgender people. It is irrelevent. I am just responding to the subject of the thread, and refuse to ignore the reality of what is right there in black and white.

[SarahG]

I think now it is up to those who deal directly with these girls to take action and launch a major campaign to raise awareness. I am talking about the photographers, the other models, the people who run the websites and produced the DVDs- everyone involved in the porn and escorting industry. If the people who have made money by photographing these girls or putting them online can do this, they can give something substantial back to the TS community, especially in Brazil, where this problem is common and deaths occur frequently.

If you really want to get people to stop injecting, find a way to make it easy for girls to go on HRT before puberty starts. Until that happens, people are going to turn to whatever they think MIGHT help, even when its risky.

This isn't really about what happens in Brazil. Pumping happens all over, even in the US. All you have to do is google this and you'll see it happens here, people die from it here, and when someone dies from it here- local DA's offices usually try to find someone to charge for it.

I really don't see how anyone could even attempt to throw the producers under the bus for this. They're not the ones who dictate access to proper medical care, regulate medical protocols, or throw shit fits when supportive parents try to help their kids get on HRT at the right age.

If someone were to really want to make a far-fetched argument about responsibility on this, how about all the consumers of these products out there who eagerly support (either in votes, donations, or volunteering) conservative politicians? Not having access to trans health care would be less of a problem if it weren't for the stigmatization & discrimination problems. And those two problems have a snowballing effect that is directly responsible for the practices that the medical community is currently able to get away with (i.e. "I'm not putting you on hrt, you're not __ years old yet. Comeback in _ years," or health care providers basically saying "we'll cover you for any treatment you need that's listed in the DSM, well, except this one- and since no one cares about your situation, we can get away with not calling it what it is [discrimination].").

[Solitary Brother]

This is a RARE example of me agreeing with Mr.Grooby.
Its NOT up to a pornographer to educate and be a quasi-health care worker for transexuals.
To even bring it up is beyond crazy.

AND......I did not insult that young girl.
Im not trying to suck anyones dick on this forum so I can speak freely.
She is not the living end as some of you suspect.
I was trying to warn her about getting a big head.
Thats all ........and I did say she was very passable.

Im not here to kiss anyones ass.....I call 'em like I see 'em.

[GroobySteven]

Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
.

Good to know you have calculated disposability into the P&L

You are an ass.
Your other message isn't even worth replying to in this topic. If you really want to question my skill and intelligence and "bottom feeding" bring it up in another topic and maybe I'll deem to answer it.

It's easy enough to find out what we pay models but I'll leave that up to you to find out as you obviously know so little.

Isn't even worth replying to? Thanks for the compliment. And just to make sure you are clear, I don't believe I ever said you had skill or intelligence, much less question it. What you do or how you do it makes no difference to me, and I have no concern really to know the exact amount you are paying girls in Brazil. I know its not much, and so do you. I just really loathe a self rightous charlatan. I am sure you understand.

Calling you an ass wasn't meant to be a compliment. Thanks though, I'm obviously fairly intelligent and have a shit load of skill that I've managed to keep a company successful for over 11 yrs without having any major setbacks and still have the time and inclination to come on boards give a point of view and put self-righteous, ill-educated and uninformed cunts like you in their place.
You obviously don't know how much we pay the girls in Brazil but it's pretty fucking good - better than any other company and they get paid a lot better than more "educated" professions. I know many of them would take exception at your calling of them poorly educated but nice racial and bigoted stereotyping.
I fail to see though how I'm a self-righteous charlatan (check your spelling next time instead of just snapping with ire. Care to help me understand or do you have any other inane ramblings or useless crap to bicker about?

[LG]

I think now it is up to those who deal directly with these girls to take action and launch a major campaign to raise awareness. I am talking about the photographers, the other models, the people who run the websites and produced the DVDs- everyone involved in the porn and escorting industry. If the people who have made money by photographing these girls or putting them online can do this, they can give something substantial back to the TS community, especially in Brazil, where this problem is common and deaths occur frequently.

If you really want to get people to stop injecting, find a way to make it easy for girls to go on HRT before puberty starts. Until that happens, people are going to turn to whatever they think MIGHT help, even when its risky.

This isn't really about what happens in Brazil. Pumping happens all over, even in the US. All you have to do is google this and you'll see it happens here, people die from it here, and when someone dies from it here- local DA's offices usually try to find someone to charge for it.

I really don't see how anyone could even attempt to throw the producers under the bus for this. They're not the ones who dictate access to proper medical care, regulate medical protocols, or throw shit fits when supportive parents try to help their kids get on HRT at the right age.

If someone were to really want to make a far-fetched argument about responsibility on this, how about all the consumers of these products out there who eagerly support (either in votes, donations, or volunteering) conservative politicians? Not having access to trans health care would be less of a problem if it weren't for the stigmatization & discrimination problems. And those two problems have a snowballing effect that is directly responsible for the practices that the medical community is currently able to get away with (i.e. "I'm not putting you on hrt, you're not __ years old yet. Comeback in _ years," or health care providers basically saying "we'll cover you for any treatment you need that's listed in the DSM, well, except this one- and since no one cares about your situation, we can get away with not calling it what it is [discrimination].").

I see your point....But HRT is not without risks either:
http://www.fresh.sissify.com/real-girl/mortality-morbidity-transsexual-patients/

And starting early is not necessarily a good idea, according to those who should know about these things (although it is not taboo as it was before):
http://www.secondtype.com/young.htm


The widely followed HBIGDA Standards of Care of Gender Identity Disorders, a document which has previously (and increasingly controversially) been against the treatment against the hormonal treatment of under 16's, has relaxed its rules somewhat in the latest (2001) Version 6. It now states that:

"Adolescents may be eligible for puberty-delaying hormones as soon as pubertal changes have begun. In order for the adolescent and his or her parents to make an informed decision about pubertal delay, it is recommended that the adolescent experience the onset of puberty in his or her biologic sex, at least to Tanner Stage Two." [on average this means about age 11 for biologic females, age 12 for biologic males] .....

"Adolescents may be eligible to begin masculinizing or feminizing hormone therapy as early as age 16, preferably with parental consent. In many countries 16-year olds are legal adults for medical decision making, and do not require parental consent. ....

"Any surgical intervention should not be carried out prior to adulthood, or prior to a real-life experience of at least two years in the gender role of the sex with which the adolescent identifies. The threshold of 18 should be seen as an eligibility criterion and not an indication in itself for active intervention."

Although still not coming out in favour of starting feminizing hormone treatment at a normal puberty age and delaying any sex change surgery until at least age 18, the standards do at least now allow the treatment of very young adolescents with puberty-delaying hormones and thus help prevent the socially and mentally disastrous development of normal male [secondary] sexual characteristics and appearance in an under-16 MTF school girl.

In its defence, the "Standards of Care" is clearly and understandably concerned about some instances of unsuccessful boy-to-girl gender re-assignment of intersexed babies, such as the highly publicised failure of the gender re-assignment David Reimer (aka the "John/Joan" case), and wants to avoid any future repetition.

So I think it's not that simple. And (this is important, and some people have realised what I meant) I'm not throwing the producers under the bus- I have not blamed the producers at all. I have merely said that I believe they are in a position where they can make a difference.

Anyway, my thoughts are a bit random right now because I need some sleep. I'll check out how the debate continues tomorrow.

[Felicia Katt]

Blamiing Adult Content Providers for problems from silicone is like blaming Cheech and Chong for the prevalence of pot. Media reflects a culture's values, it doesn't cause them. And this culture values a highly idealized, artificial perfection and condemns those who fall short. Just look at the some of the comments in some of the threads where girls who haven't pumped are berated. If you want to pass the blame around, blame those buying the content and those idolizing and rewarding the girls who take those risks. Its simple supply and demand and so long as girls with hips and butts are more in demand, there will be girls who will try to supply it. You pay more to see girls with silicone than without and you buy more videos or join website with girls with silicone than of those without it. Until that changes, girls will continue to try to change their bodies to meet that societal ideal, knowing the risks, and no amount of additional warning will deter them.

FK

[GIA LOVES RON]

Please any girls who feel like they need to do it. Just weigh in your options and you might actually find out that doing it the right way is the best way to go. Get some butt implants or Fat grafting. JUST DON'T DO IT!

[trannybanger]

Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
.

Good to know you have calculated disposability into the P&L

You are an ass.
Your other message isn't even worth replying to in this topic. If you really want to question my skill and intelligence and "bottom feeding" bring it up in another topic and maybe I'll deem to answer it.

It's easy enough to find out what we pay models but I'll leave that up to you to find out as you obviously know so little.

Isn't even worth replying to? Thanks for the compliment. And just to make sure you are clear, I don't believe I ever said you had skill or intelligence, much less question it. What you do or how you do it makes no difference to me, and I have no concern really to know the exact amount you are paying girls in Brazil. I know its not much, and so do you. I just really loathe a self rightous charlatan. I am sure you understand.

Calling you an ass wasn't meant to be a compliment. Thanks though, I'm obviously fairly intelligent and have a shit load of skill that I've managed to keep a company successful for over 11 yrs without having any major setbacks and still have the time and inclination to come on boards give a point of view and put self-righteous, ill-educated and uninformed cunts like you in their place.
You obviously don't know how much we pay the girls in Brazil but it's pretty fucking good - better than any other company and they get paid a lot better than more "educated" professions. I know many of them would take exception at your calling of them poorly educated but nice racial and bigoted stereotyping.
I fail to see though how I'm a self-righteous charlatan (check your spelling next time instead of just snapping with ire. Care to help me understand or do you have any other inane ramblings or useless crap to bicker about?

Really? Spelling is what you want to run with? That is your attempt to put me in place? Sean, you know nothing about me, or what I do, but we all know how you make your living. Have you truly convinced yourself that you are doing anything more than profiting off others? That you are doing something for the good of mankind? That is how you have kept a porn company afloat for 11 years... you really believe that takes intelligence? Oh, I suppose its that "shitload of skill" you carry in your mouth. You can add delusions of grandeur along with charlatan to your list of attributes.

I called no one poorly educated other than you. I am far from a bigot, alsa two of my best friends are Brazilian, born and raised, so I have been there many times. I find it hard to believe that you are paying girls to do porn more than the average professional makes, and you know its not true. So you pay higher than average for transsexual hooker in Rio to do porn, and that merits some sort of pat on the back? They do it out of necessity and you prey on that necessity. Everyone enjoys looking at porn, but in places like South America and Southeast Asia it comes at a price, and you sure are not the one being taken advantage of. Why do you even try and pussyfoot around it and pretend as if it is not the truth? Any intelligent person is aware. And not that I even think it is your responsibility at all, but I have to state what is obvious, you have no inclination to help any of these girls if it does not benefit you. Keep it real.

[GroobySteven]

Bottom line of a few girls dying of silicone poisoning is virtually un-affected.
.

Good to know you have calculated disposability into the P&L

You are an ass.
Your other message isn't even worth replying to in this topic. If you really want to question my skill and intelligence and "bottom feeding" bring it up in another topic and maybe I'll deem to answer it.

It's easy enough to find out what we pay models but I'll leave that up to you to find out as you obviously know so little.

Isn't even worth replying to? Thanks for the compliment. And just to make sure you are clear, I don't believe I ever said you had skill or intelligence, much less question it. What you do or how you do it makes no difference to me, and I have no concern really to know the exact amount you are paying girls in Brazil. I know its not much, and so do you. I just really loathe a self rightous charlatan. I am sure you understand.

Calling you an ass wasn't meant to be a compliment. Thanks though, I'm obviously fairly intelligent and have a shit load of skill that I've managed to keep a company successful for over 11 yrs without having any major setbacks and still have the time and inclination to come on boards give a point of view and put self-righteous, ill-educated and uninformed cunts like you in their place.
You obviously don't know how much we pay the girls in Brazil but it's pretty fucking good - better than any other company and they get paid a lot better than more "educated" professions. I know many of them would take exception at your calling of them poorly educated but nice racial and bigoted stereotyping.
I fail to see though how I'm a self-righteous charlatan (check your spelling next time instead of just snapping with ire. Care to help me understand or do you have any other inane ramblings or useless crap to bicker about?

Really? Spelling is what you want to run with? That is your attempt to put me in place? Sean, you know nothing about me, or what I do, but we all know how you make your living. Have you truly convinced yourself that you are doing anything more than profiting off others? That you are doing something for the good of mankind? That is how you have kept a porn company afloat for 11 years... you really believe that takes intelligence? Oh, I suppose its that "shitload of skill" you carry in your mouth. You can add delusions of grandeur along with charlatan to your list of attributes.

I called no one poorly educated other than you. I am far from a bigot, alsa two of my best friends are Brazilian, born and raised, so I have been there many times. I find it hard to believe that you are paying girls to do porn more than the average professional makes, and you know its not true. So you pay higher than average for transsexual hooker in Rio to do porn, and that merits some sort of pat on the back? They do it out of necessity and you prey on that necessity. Everyone enjoys looking at porn, but in places like South America and Southeast Asia it comes at a price, and you sure are not the one being taken advantage of. Why do you even try and pussyfoot around it and pretend as if it is not the truth? Any intelligent person is aware. And not that I even think it is your responsibility at all, but I have to state what is obvious, you have no inclination to help any of these girls if it does not benefit you. Keep it real.

Yeah I must admit the old "crappy spelling" comeback is a bit weak on this forum. Do I honestly believe I'm doing something "for the good of mankind"? No - can you or how many people in this forum can? Do I believe that I run a conscientious company that tries to treat people fairly, educate in responsibilities, pay fair wages/fees, put money back into the countries we work in either through local producers and support staff or be repeatedly working with models, by giving to charity, by supporting transgender rights in the countries we work in? Yes, absolutely. I take advantage of nobody.

I'm sorry you find it hard to believe but look up some average wages in say Brazil or Thailand. The models we work with in Thailand, do far better than the average similar aged University leaver and the payments we give them to work with us, are excellent. Which is why the models come back to work with our company, again and again and why many models will work, only with us. Yes of course it's necessity, the same as as individual in this country has to go and work in McDonald's for a living but they don't have to work with us, most have jobs in bars and could make their living there, they work with us because they payment they get is a good days work.

You stated in your first ridiculous posting, "so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. " so yes, you did call them un-educated and your "I have a Brazilian friend" argument is just an embarrassment.

So how am I a charlatan?
How am I un-educated or a liar - and whom do I take advantage of?

You've made plenty of accusations. You've judged me solely on the fact that you "think" that as a pornographer we take advantage of people in these "poor" countries but you've provided no facts or substantial information and are downright incorrect in most of your assertions?

What do you do that is so great? How many people from 3rd world counties do you abuse on a daily basis and how many people do you genuinely help, I'm willing to bet you do a lot worse that I do.

[AsiaMei]

I have posted this article to the Stopping The Hate website about my own personal experience with silicone injections. Normally I don't discuss the subject, but after hearing about another young transgender woman dying from the injections I thought it best to talk about it openly in hopes that it might help other young transgender women from ever considering loose silicone injections as an option.

http://stoppingthehate.com/News-Article246_The_Dangers_Of_Loose_Silicone_Injection s_My_Own_Personal_Horror_Story_By_Meghan_Chavalier .htm

Peace and I hope this helps on the subject at hand
Meghan

that was a good read meghan :D
i been thinking of doing it for awhile, hearing diff stories. "/
prob not going to do it.

[SarahG]

I see your point....But HRT is not without risks either:
http://www.fresh.sissify.com/real-girl/mortality-morbidity-transsexual-patients/


And your point is what exactly?

Everything has risks. Simply getting in the car to get to get to a doctor's office has risks. But there's a far cry difference between hrt and some pumping party using industrial grade silicone.

By the way, your link had this disclaimer in it:

"This study is a retrospective and not a case-control study. Therefore, no definitive conclusions about the relative risks of cross-gender hormone treatment can be drawn."

The reality is that the current treatment schemes simply don't work well. It would be redundant to mention the prevalence of suicides, suicide attempts, and self destructive behavior for trans people. There's not going to be a magic cure all, there isn't going to be some policy change that could make that suddenly vaporize... but I find it laughable that any criticism of making treatment access easier is so often countered with "oh, but its risky". Sure its risky, transitioning is going to be risky (to a point). But there's a huge difference between proper medical care, from supportive medical professionals... and a pumping party where people with no medical training are playing around with industrial silicone that was never meant to go anywhere near the human body.


And starting early is not necessarily a good idea, according to those who should know about these things

Those who should be in the know? Followed by quotes from the SoC? Really? Are you joking?

What next, some quotes from Bailey, Blanchard, or the Clark Institute?

[Odelay]

LG, I have to agree with what SarahG writes, above. And beyond the argument that life is all about navigating the risk/reward line, and that much of HRT research is still yet inconclusive, I think there is a bigger issue...

How do we live authentic lives? For people who come to the conclusion that they would be more happy to be transgender, be it at age 12 or age 40, what role should society and medicine play to help such individuals and their parents?

There may be no greater reward in life than to lead an authentic one. That would seem to imply that the risks associated with leading such a life could justifiably be quite high.

On your original question... I didn't vote. I guess I'm neutral until I hear a fully persuasive argument, for or against.

[tsntx]

talking about how brasillian girls are paid well is equal to the same conversation that i had on the SER board about guys paying thai hookers $15 for a fuck and $45 for an overnight

the arguement was to them that they paid well over the asking price and that w/ that price the girl could feed her family of 8 for a week

my arguement was that doesnt make it right

and i stand behind that assesment

but thats why ppl use the services of 3rd world countries bc they can get away with a lot more for a whole lot less $$$

same reason why when people have work to do at their home they will use workers standing outside of the home depot vs. using the home depots workers to do it

[GroobySteven]

talking about how brasillian girls are paid well is equal to the same conversation that i had on the SER board about guys paying thai hookers $15 for a fuck and $45 for an overnight

the arguement was to them that they paid well over the asking price and that w/ that price the girl could feed her family of 8 for a week

my arguement was that doesnt make it right

and i stand behind that assesment

but thats why ppl use the services of 3rd world countries bc they can get away with a lot more for a whole lot less $$$

same reason why when people have work to do at their home they will use workers standing outside of the home depot vs. using the home depots workers to do it

If that's the case then you believe in no outsourcing whatsoever, no manufacturing of goods for sale in your country abroad and no import of foodstuffs. Even though the individuals in that country are getting paid a fair wage, which may seem low to us, it's on a comparitive level as their rent/mortgages and expenses are substantially lower?

The minimum wage in the USA is very low compared to some European countries, so they shouldn't import from the US based on this either?

What part of your argument doesn't make it right?

[Jasmine562]

Here is a show with the girls speaking on the good and bad of sili. The

girls that have it and the girls that dont. I Love The Show Personally. They

have a new episode on: Can Trans-Women & Natal Born Women Get

Along?

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Queenz_OF_Media

Here is the episode on silicone (The Underground Procedure) The girls are so funny i die laughing :lol: :lol:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Queenz_OF_Media/2009/01/06/TRANSSEXUALS-AND-SILICONE-HAZARDS

Everyone is free to call in

[NYTSJulie]

It is a touchy subject and I agree a lot of girls dont talk about it, so I will and this has been my experience.

I did my boy holes, got some ass and some hips. I am far from over done with a vavavoom body.

I had very small amounts put it each time. I went to someone who is very reputable. There are two well know names in the US when it comes to getting pumped, one in Miami and one in NY.

I have had problems, but nothing major. Two times I banged my ass hard, once falling in my driveway wearing heels in the in the snow/ice lol. Second, I went skiing recently and I thought I could tackle the double black diamond. Both times I fell and landed hard on my ass and the area that I hit swelled up and was like a rock. I had to inject it with a steroid and massage the fuck out of it.

Overall I am glad I had it done, but I am also very glad I stopped when I did. It is very dangerous and I am very lucky it didnt go into my lungs, and I made it off the table alive. The risk is far too great and that is why I stopped. If your body accepts with no problems silicone is still maintenance, you dont just pump it in and forget about it, you have to do things to maintain it and the upkeep can be a pain in the ass.

I would never recommend someone to get pumped, the risks are far too great. If someone insist then go to someone well known. Have it done in small amounts and dont go overboard. I already think girls know the risks, but they think "oh this wont happen to me". I also think girls need to but upfront and honest about there issues with silicone to change the outlook on it for the young girls.

I would never pump my face or any other part of my body. We have all seen pumped faces and 10+ years later the apple of your cheek is now next to corners of your mouth, not cute.

[Willie Escalade]

This is all I have to say. :2cent

If a person knows the consequences of a particular action (both negative and positive), and they still go through with it, no one is responsible except themselves. That goes for injections, smoking, drinking, not wearing a seat belt, going for it on fourth down...whatever. Warnings about such actions are already out there; it's up to the individual to adhere to them...or not.

[justatransgirl]

Jennifer honey you just keep telling the fags that think you are anything but gorgeous to fuck off. You are a lovely lady and plenty of t-girls would love to look like you. Heck I'd love to look half as good as you. I'm sure you know there's LOT's of men who love the way you look. Nobody is going to please everyone. Besides face down in the dark everyone looks the same anyway... LOL :-)

Gentlemen if you want somone who looks like totally like a girl, go date a GG. Most of them look pretty femme, they even have real pussies, though a few look like bricklayers.

As for the issue of who's job it is to tell people what to do. I don't feel it's the photographers job. I don't feel that producers should not use girls who are pumped, and that isn't going to happen anyway. I think they DO do what they can to help keep the girls healthy and make suggestions that might be received. But nobody is listening.

Some girls might be getting pumped be in order to get paid more for sex work, but most are not doing it with the intention of getting into porn. They are doing it because there are many uneducated young girls who want to look like a genetic girl at any cost so they can attract a man/mate.

They are not looking down the road. None of us think we are going to live past 30 anyway. And then suddenly one day you look in the mirror and you are 45. And if you got pumped at 20 your silicone boobs are hanging down to your belt and your cheeks are around your neck.

It's up to the girls to advise girls who don't not to do this. Get implants, get lipo, move fat around, get your rib removed if you want. But please don't pump silicone.

I'll go read the rest of this thread now...

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[justatransgirl]

i still want to have some pumping work done and was actually going to get some this weekend but money was tight this month and im still not sure i want to tackle the risks

Jen - please don't do the pumping. You don't need it and don't let the guys here push you toward it. If you feel you need bigger hips or something, wait and get fat injections.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[T Oracle]

Dan Kulick, Travesti. Describes how tgirls in Salvador, Brazil, do massive amounts of injectable silicone. The people he's talking about seldom make it into porn.

There was a tgirl murdered in one of the regional capitals well away from Sao Paulo/Rio in the last year. Her friends report to the police was that the client had negotiated her down from the $6 (that's six US dollars, not a typo) she wanted, to $4 (that's four US dollars). (In Brazil's currency,using todays exchange rate).

Camilla de Castro. In the time before her suicide CdC was very close to being top model in Brasil. (And other things like on televsion.) But in her own words she admitted she still had to do street walking to make ends meet.

Porn comes along at the end and offers some additional cash to a few lucky ones. For most, it's street work. See Praetor's thread on that.

[Ts CinthyaNY]

I vote YES... but like when in TV this commercials warning you about not smoking and people still spend tons of money buying them with all the risk of Cancer... Or when they tell you on the AIDS Campaigns to use condoms at all times in all sexual encounters and some guys do not want to use them or some of us girls take they chances not used them because the guy "it's so hot and do not think something it's wrong with him". PEOPLE STILL DO NOT GET IT .

We girls know the risk of the silicone injections, but we all still want it to do it. I was worry about my hips been smalls and butt , thank God to my genes my hips been widened out the last few months thanks to the hormones, but I been trough so much pain due to the Hormones side effects to me.

I want to pump my butt and being asking around with who and where to get it done, but guess I will keep working out to see if I can get a better result in a more healthy way.
I heard most times the girls get good results but nothing it's for sure since our bodies can react different to the Silicone.

Bottom line, we all have to pay the price of beauty and do what we think it should be done and sometimes not to measure the consequences even having the knowledge of it, but that it's at the end each person to decide and go for that procedure.

** Love to all **

TS Cinthya :P

[flabbybody]

I have never understood the obsession with "passability". like Jamie says, if its so freakin important to a guy he should go chase gg's. deep down I think most guys who prefer tgirls like the subtle signs of boy features. (i'm not talking about the online cock junkies who never met a t IRL)
Its the girls who are totally preoccupied with the idea of looking perfectly fish. I used to tell a girl I love the way she is right now and please don't change, but I don't say that anymore cuz it to just pisses them off

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

my .02 cents

I saw a movie a long time ago when I was in college, it kept flying off the shelves and I got curious. The movie was called Paris is Burning.

One of the high points of the film I know from parties I've been to in the past I saw recently at an event. Her right ass cheek (mind you in lycra pants) was hanging down about 4 maybe 5 inches lower than her left.

Do it the old fashion way.........
eat, exercise, work out that ass & hip section sexually
if that doesnt work for you, fuck it..........chances are you're doing it for attention more than self appreciation and in that case there's always gonna be a guy out there who likes you for who you are..................

[LG]

I see your point....But HRT is not without risks either:
http://www.fresh.sissify.com/real-girl/mortality-morbidity-transsexual-patients/


And your point is what exactly?

Everything has risks. Simply getting in the car to get to get to a doctor's office has risks. But there's a far cry difference between hrt and some pumping party using industrial grade silicone.
Didn't say there wasn't a difference. But you're talking about HRT at a pre-pubescent age, when a person may not be psychologically ready to take a decision, and when the treatment will be irreversible and may have added risks.


The reality is that the current treatment schemes simply don't work well. It would be redundant to mention the prevalence of suicides, suicide attempts, and self destructive behavior for trans people. There's not going to be a magic cure all, there isn't going to be some policy change that could make that suddenly vaporize... but I find it laughable that any criticism of making treatment access easier is so often countered with "oh, but its risky".

I'm not making that argument. I think treatment should be available. But I question the wisdom of making it available to 11 and 12 year olds who may not have made their mind up yet and may be easily influenced by others.

I don't think things should be banned because they're risky, but I do feel that people should be able to make an informed and educated decision. This applies to HRT, pumping and to everything else.



And starting early is not necessarily a good idea, according to those who should know about these things

Those who should be in the know? Followed by quotes from the SoC? Really? Are you joking?

What next, some quotes from Bailey, Blanchard, or the Clark Institute?

Ummm...no, I won't be quoting them at all. But just because you disagree with something doesn't mean iit's of no use. Harry Benjamin's Standard's of Care are guidelines, of course, but they have helped doctors apply the right methods to help TGs and support them in their quest for a better life. The Standards are supported by a great many TG support groups. Before the Standards existed, things were much more difficult for TGs seeking medical support. Back then, doctors were less aware of transgenderism and would be keen to dismiss people with gender dysphoria or try to "cure" them.

Of course, part of the reason the Standards were written up was to ensure that transgendered people don't make a huge mistake. There have been several cases of pre-op TS deciding to revert back to their previous lives, and a handful of instances of post-ops regretting their decisions. Perhaps if the Standards had been applied this wouldn't have happened.

The Standards aren't perfect, and they've been criticised for many things, including dealing with the condition rather than the individuals, but they're better than nothing, in my opinion.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, my point was this: Producers are not necessarily to blame for pumping, but they are in a position where they might be able to do some good (either through education or by helping girls find safer methods or better practitioners) . This way they can give something back to the TG community.

[Solitary Brother]

I have never understood the obsession with "passability". like Jamie says, if its so freakin important to a guy he should go chase gg's. deep down I think most guys who prefer tgirls like the subtle signs of boy features. (i'm not talking about the online cock junkies who never met a t IRL)
Its the girls who are totally preoccupied with the idea of looking perfectly fish. I used to tell a girl I love the way she is right now and please don't change, but I don't say that anymore cuz it to just pisses them off

A little subtle insight into the sexual thought process of the mods.....
Interesting.

[tsntx]

as far as reverting and the standards are concerned


i dont feel the standards would prevent ts's from reverting

real life experience is the biggest reason girls want to revert

ive struggled a few times when i first transitioned bc of fears that no longer concern me

i think the ones that want to revert once going full time or post op do it bc they thought ______ surgery would fix all the obvious problems and they would be 100% passable or female and noone would ever know

the biggest problem w/ that is that thats a myth that only a very select few achieve ... and once they realise they arent one of the chosen ones they wanna go back to the way it was before bc at least when they were unhappy..... they went unnoticed

[justatransgirl]

I used to tell a girl I love the way she is right now and please don't change, but I don't say that anymore cuz it to just pisses them off

Yeah, I know just what you mean. My partner has sexy little girl hormone breasts, they drive the pedophile in me crazy. LOL I tell her she's perfect. But she wants implants. So whatever the Princess wants, the Princess gets. :-) Sigh...



I'm not making that argument. I think treatment should be available. But I question the wisdom of making it available to 11 and 12 year olds who may not have made their mind up yet and may be easily influenced by others.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, my point was this: Producers are not necessarily to blame for pumping, but they are in a position where they might be able to do some good (either through education or by helping girls find safer methods or better practitioners) . This way they can give something back to the TG community.

Regarding young kids, this is very subjective. For one thing being trans is NOT really a "decision." You either are or you are not. Many transgendered people are forced by society to repress their inner selves until they are older. So the appearance is that they are making a decision to "become" trans. The reality is they are making the decision to stop the repression and live their life as they feel they must regardless of anything else. Trust me, nobody would "decide" to do this.

Fortunately as society grows in some places, it is becoming easier for younger trans people to insist upon their right to be themselves without getting killed over it.

Obviously most 8 or 11 year olds can't make a fully informed decision, however for many young trans kids there is absolutely no question they are born in the wrong sex. When someone's gender is not repressed it may well be safe to begin HRT at a very early age, or at the very least to put them on Nupron until they are in their mid teens and are better informed.

I have only met a handful of trans kids, maybe 4, ranging in age from around 8 to 13, and all are FtM's. I am not privy to their hormone plans so won't presume to comment on that, but I can tell you none have any question as to what sex they are and all have supportive families.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[praetor]

I find this song to say goodbye to her, cause only Hendrix is able to console this time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFZndBRIk1M

TOLD ME A STORY YESTERDAY
ABOUT THE SWEET LOVE BETWEEN THE MOON AND THE DEEP BLUE SEA
AND WHEN IT WAS TIME FOR HER TO LEAVE SHE SPREAD HER WINGS HIGH OVER ME
AND SAID I SHALL RETURN TOMORROW

AND I SAID FLY ON MY SWEET ANGEL
FLY ON THROUGH THE SKY
FLY ON MY SWEET, SWEET ANGEL
TOMORROW I SHALL HAVE YOU BY MY SIDE

SURE ENOUGH THIS MORNIN' CAME TO ME
SILVER WINGS SILHOUETTED AGAINST THE GOLDEN ROSE OF TODAY'S SUNRISE
AND THE ANGEL SHE BENT DOWN AND TOLD ME
YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS PLACE JUST WIPE YOUR WEEPIN' EYES
I'LL TAKE YOU WHERE YOU'VE NEVER BEEN, YOU CAN FLY
I LOOKED AROUND AND I THOUGHT

FLY ON MY LITTLE ANGEL
FLY ON THROUGH THE SKY
FLY ON MY SWEET ANGEL
TOMORROW I'LL BE BY YOUR SIDE
I GOT MY WINGS TO FLY

HAHA

[LG]

Good post, Jamie. I gree, but would like to clarify.


For one thing being trans is NOT really a "decision." You either are or you are not. Many transgendered people are forced by society to repress their inner selves until they are older. So the appearance is that they are making a decision to "become" trans. The reality is they are making the decision to stop the repression and live their life as they feel they must regardless of anything else. Trust me, nobody would "decide" to do this.

The decision isn't being TG or not. The decision is whether to transition or not and to what extent.

I appreciate Jen's points as well. I always though the Standards were useful and I know many TG support groups believe this as well, and maybe this usefulness is limited.

To praetor: Beautiful song. Hendrix was a genius. This song is testament to that, even if it is not typical of what people usually think of when they hear his name (songs like Purple Haze, Fire, Crosstown Traffic, Voodoo Chile etc).

[LG]

BTW, we're so way off the original topic it's unbelievable...


And yes, this was a double post and I deleted it. Damn "Submit" button!

[justatransgirl]

BTW, we're so way off the original topic it's unbelievable...

I forget, what was the original topic? Oh yes, who's responsible...

BTW, I voted YES, but with my previous comments.



Ummm...no, I won't be quoting them at all. But just because you disagree with something doesn't mean iit's of no use. Harry Benjamin's Standard's of Care are guidelines, of course, but they have helped doctors apply the right methods to help TGs and support them in their quest for a better life. The Standards are supported by a great many TG support groups. Before the Standards existed, things were much more difficult for TGs seeking medical support. Back then, doctors were less aware of transgenderism and would be keen to dismiss people with gender dysphoria or try to "cure" them.

Of course, part of the reason the Standards were written up was to ensure that transgendered people don't make a huge mistake. There have been several cases of pre-op TS deciding to revert back to their previous lives, and a handful of instances of post-ops regretting their decisions. Perhaps if the Standards had been applied this wouldn't have happened.

The Standards aren't perfect, and they've been criticised for many things, including dealing with the condition rather than the individuals, but they're better than nothing, in my opinion.

This is a good point LG.

I should correct my previous comment of "nobody would choose to become trans" to the more correct "nobody in their right mind would choose." And not all people who feel trans are in fact in their right mind.

I think I'm competent to discuss the subject of the Benjamin Standards as a lay person. I'm not on any kind of medication beyond hormones, and never have been. When I was early in my transition I went to 5 separate doctors including one who is actually on the HBIGDA board, to make sure I wasn't nuts or a gay guy with a fetish.

I had a lot to lose by transitioning - and I lost it all. Family, friends, a multi million dollar house, everything I owned but the clothes on my back. I ended up working as a prostitute. As it turned out I was a very good prostitute... :-) LOL and it took several years but I eventually recovered most of my property and even my Mom came around, though I'm no longer in contact with the rest of my family, and probably will never be.

But even through all that I have never had any desire to do anything other than to live the rest of my life the way I want to live it. As I grow older, I realize I'm not going to look like Raquel Welch when I'm 70, no matter how much money I spend.

I really don't even have the desire to. That isn't who I am. I want to be who I am, not someone else's idea of who I should be to fulfill their sexual fetish. I'll probably end up looking more like LG's avatar, or as one asshole here on HA recently suggested, Howard Stern with a pussy. So what.

I do a lot of self introspection, and I've wondered if I would ever reach a point where I wanted to transition back to living as a man. But so far I haven't had any indication that my desire would change. Even though I now work in the real estate rehab business, and spend much of my day wearing levis and work boots with two phones and a tape measure on my belt - and "DD's" popping out of my tank top. LOL :-)

And more recently I've realized, so what if I do. I will have had one heck of a life, I will have lived it my way, and hopefully in 25 years I will read this comment and still feel the same way. Time will tell.

I go both ways regarding the "Standards." On one hand I do not like the connotation that people should not be allowed to do whatever they want with their own bodies. On the other hand there are definitely people who do need to be "protected" from their own mental issues. The difficulty arises in determining which is which.

There are situations where people "think" they are trans, but have a condition known as "autogynophelia" (men with an obsession with having womens genitals). There are also situations of fetish behaviour and fantasy desires taken to an extreme.

Examples would be the guy who "confessed" to the Jon Boney Ramsy murder, there were insinuations in the media he was in Thailand trying to get a sex change. More likely he was there to fuck little girls... but that's not the issue here. There are doctors there who will cut the leg off a giraffe if someone pays them. So the "standards" become a moot point to someone who is hell bent on self destruction.

As "Mistress Jamie," I have had several men contact me wanting me to "force" them to be women, including "forced" hormone injections. One even wanted me to take him to Thailand and "force" him to have a sex change. Another guy had actually gone to that QUACK in LA, Dr. O'Day, who would give hormone pellet injections to anyone with a grand to spend. Basically what these men were seeking was a total fetish fantasy bordering or perhaps over the line of mental illness.

"Forced femme" sex fantasies can be fun and fulfilling for many men, whether with a TS or a GG, but when it enters the realm of body modification, you better damn be sure you are sane before proceeding. Such situations are what causes so many problems for "true" transsexuals.

I'm discussing MtoF's here. But I think girls who are in their late teens, early 20's and appear femme, like many of the girls here on HA are not going to run into HBIGDA issues. It's not a big deal for a younger, pretty obviously femme girl seeking SRS to go see a therapist once and get a letter and move on. If someone looks like a 50 year old linebacker with a 5 o'clock shadow and sex fetish it might be different.

The doctors just don't want somebody waking up after surgery saying, "My god! What did YOU do to me!!!"

Maybe Danielle can comment on her experience. I know two girls who had SRS without any letters - but both had been long term in gender, had all their legal papers done, etc. In my and Jessica's case I'm not sure we will bother. We both have letters from a few years ago, we look female. I don't expect whoever we ultimately go to for SRS to have much of an issue with it. If they do I guess we will just get out the meat cleaver... LOL

Hugs and Giggles,
TS Jamie :-)

[TsVanessa69]

This was a very interesting thread to me on so many levels.
First of all before anything I would like to say to Megan, Thank You for sharing your story, I admire your honesty and your ability to share with us something that personal.
Now I was at my job today and I was flipping through some magazines and came across the sory of actress Tara Reid. It showed graphic pics also, of her botched boob job and even more boched lypo job. And what stuck out to me the most is she went to a board certified plastic surgeon in LA.
I say this because with every elective procedure you undergo, you run a risk. No person is perfect. The best surgeon can fuck you up, just as well as the bootleg doctor could turn a frog to a swan. Its about knowing who to go to and who to aviod. Not all injected silicone jobs end in disaster. I know so many girls who are pumped more than me and are quite fine. My dragmother has had her work since 1979, and its still FLAWLESS! She's 50. I have had my work for over 10 years now myself and I can say the only issue I have is that my silicone in my breast area hardened. The lower half of my body is soft, no discolorations on my body from the work done. Have also had scans and such by doctors here in Chicago, because I was worried. All the work was done fine, the breast area on some girls, not all, hardens. But I have already had a consultation to have it removed and replaced with bags. The lower half is fine in all aspects. But I also have girlfriends who's breast are all pumped sill and they are supple and soft. It was a risk, and I knew what I was getting myself into, because I used a person Julie mentioned from Miami. He is the best, known worldwide. In MY mind, it was worth it. I saw it as a way of a dream coming true. I could leave behind that stickly scrawny body behind and walk in the world with the body I saw in my dreams as a child.
I was talking to a psychiatrist one time and she ask me that when I dreamed at night when I was a small child did I ever look in mirrors in my dreams. I replied yes, she then proceded to ask me if the person I saw in the mirror in my dreams was the person I saw in the mirror when I was woke. I told her no, because as far back as my memory can go, I never saw my male form in the mirror in my dreams. I saw a very tall thick woman like the females in my family. My neice closest to me is 6ft tall with natural 40DD breast and a size 12 shoe. So I always knew it was possible for a woman to be tall and sexy, and I knever knew how I would make myself into the woman I wanted to be until I met a pump doctor. My life changed COMPLETELY! In MY mind, I said, God or the fairy godmother and everything else I wished on and prayed to heard and answered my prayers. I was lucky, but its sad that some girls weren't as lucky. But I knew the risks and I still took the chance, and to be honest if I had to make the choice over the only thing I would change would be getting implants instead of injections in my chest area. :2cent :2cent

[Bob's Tgirls]

This is a major problem and has been for years.

A big part of it is girls not wanting to spend the extra money to go to professionals. So they go to a non-medical person who has set up shop to get it done.

One girl told me that a combination of mineral oil and collegen was injected into her. The result was large patches of discolored and hard skin that covered the whole thigh areas of her legs. It took several painful and expensive treatments to get that removed. It took her years to find a doctor who would even attempt to treat her. There's a number of these mineral oil stories.

More recently I heard of someone dying after being injected with the same silicone sealant you purchase at the hardware store.

A number of girls have died after the stuff (regardless of what) is injected into a vein. Then it can cause heart or lung damage or death.

One girl ended up in a coma for over a month. The doctors expected her not to survive. After she left the hospital, she was warned that if she went to the police that she and her friend (who got injections with her would be killed.)

Another girl has some permanent lung damage, but she was relatively lucky.

Another ended up in a hospital due to complications years after the actual injections. She was in the ICU for days. The doctors had to scrape some of the junk out of her.

I have privately told younger girls these stories before they started getting injections - one of them a girlfriend of mine. But as someone already stated in this thread, girls will do what they want to do. I encourage them to at least go to a medical professional and pay a little extra to reduce the risk.

As for dissemination of information being a responsibility of webmasters, photographers, DVD producers, etc., I say no it's not because we are not experts. I think the gay and lesbian centers, transgender supports groups and the like are better suited for that.

I will continue to have such discussions with girls when the topic comes up. If there is a good resource on the internet, I'd be happy to link to it from my site. Does anyone know of a good web resource for this topic?

[justatransgirl]

Good post Bob,

Here's two links with photos regarding a pump party here in San Diego a few years ago. One girl died. The lady in the newspaper photo is an aquaintance of mine, though she wasn't involved in the party. She just had to have her cheeks dug out of her neck...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050703/news_1m3silicone.html

http://www.gaylesbiantimes.com/?id=5241

Sigh,
TS Jamie :-(

[Bob's Tgirls]

Most of all the girls I know, know the risk and continue to get pumped with silicone. I feel that the reason for this is because there is no alternative that is affordable.

I also think that alot of the girls that are considering getting pumped with silicone see all these beautiful retouched pictures of these girls with curvy bodies and think I want that and can have that! What the girls dont see is the negative affect of silicon or the un retouched version of the pics. Where you can see the discoloration, dark stains, lumps, bumps, dents, drastic migration where the silicone has moved to other parts of the body or fallen down from there hips to there legs and ankles.

The think that the girls with silicone and have issues with it dont talk about it! They dont want anyone to know! Its a very hush hush issue.

I know of other girls that have died or had serious heath issues from silicone its quite sad.

Good post. I am one of those who will retouch photos to cover scars, bruises, blemishes and the discoloration you mentioned - just like Playboy magazine does. I want to present my models at their best.

What you mentioned about the migration of silicon is a major problem in Brazil from what I've seen.

One of the gals who posts in here regularly explained this to me. She said that only small amounts of silicone should be injected at a time. That way the body can build up some flesh around it. If too much is put in at once, the body can't surround it all and it runs down the legs and eventually pools in the feet and ankles. This is another thing I tell girls who are considering getting injections.

[BrendaQG]

I voted no for the same reasons other girls have voted no. Basically long before any girl gets silicone injected in them they ask around about it. They see the girls with silicone, good well done silicone, and they want what those ladies have. They see the ones without silicone, looking plainer in general, who wants to be plain? So they take the risk, take the shortcut and get pumped. Some girls die, most don't.

I guarantee that girls who get pumped have heard it all and thought about it (heck even I thought about it)....

They get that education from other transies, nothing producers could say would add to or take away from that.

[justatransgirl]

Hey Bob - if you can you photoshop my hips, waist and maybe paste Kelly's face and Mandys dick on my photos you can shoot me. :-)

LOL,
TS Jamie :-)

Just trying to add some levity to a serious subject...

[SarahG]

I don't think things should be banned because they're risky, but I do feel that people should be able to make an informed and educated decision. This applies to HRT, pumping and to everything else.

There are problems with requiring people be "informed and educated" as a prerequisite to receiving medical treatments. Sure, it sounds logical and sensible enough but it also opens the door for all kinds of problems.

Who defines what is "informed" or "educated" enough when talking about drugs or surgeries? Should a MtF have a "higher bar" in being informed & educated on the risks, than a GG when talking about implants (all else being equal)?

From a strict non-psyc medical point of view, orchis can have ramifications on the physical health of a patient (the body needs sex hormones to remain healthy, cut that supply off without replacing it with -something- and the immune system becomes weaker, there's a potential for bone loss, etc). Yet a MtF is going to have to go through more jumping threw hoops to prove they are "informed and educated" on the risks, than say, a GG wanting a hysterectomy (which not only has similar risks from an endocrine point of view, but is a far more risky invasive surgery that has far more potential for things to go wrong!).

And then there are those who would use the argument of making sure patients are "informed & educated" as a platform in making the process more abrasive. "Informed and educated" has been used as an excuse to employ scare tactics when dealing with female reproductive rights for decades. It would be unethical if a surgeon, responding to a GG wanting an abortion, to "inform & educate them" with a 3 hr lecture using print outs from the Pro-Lifer groups, yet that same concept of "informing and educating" trans patients has been routine for how long?

I've been through the psyc screening process before for plastic surgery, even as a minor (try 2nd grade). Wasn't a trans-related procedure, but it was a remarkably quick, simple, painless screening process that took less than 45 minutes. It was essentially no more or less thorough as what GG's go threw in setting up an appointment for breast implants. One visit with the surgeon, one with the surgeon's shrink, surgery a month later. I won't go into the specifics (PM me if you're that interested) but it was an irreversible procedure and didn't even begin to involve years of therapy, or going and finding two letters proving I was sane. Yes, I was making my medical decisions at 8... and what of it? Minors are found on a case by case basis to be competent at controlling their medical care on a daily basis in this country, yet as soon as it involves genitalia or gender roles... the dynamics are supposed to change?

Surely we all know, on this board especially, how unique western culture is in terms of forcing people to go through lengthy screening processes to make sure they're "informed, educated, and sane" on transitioning. There are foreign SRS surgeons who, in taking in (to them) domestic patients off the street- don't even ask for letters... because its such a foreign concept.

All that requiring letters does, is force people to go to shrinks who have a vested interest in making people take longer. Do the math, at $100 per session, 1-2 sessions per month, per patient... that's a lot even if each patient only needs a "quick" year of therapy during the RLE before getting their first letter. And then if the therapist draws it out long enough, makes the patient wait enough to the point where they can't pass, then the therapist might be lucky enough to have a nonpassing patient come in for years into the future, to work out all the problems & psyc duress that come along with not passing. GID is itself a separate psychological condition, not every trans person has or will have GID. GID is the clinical term for someone who has emotional/psychological duress from being trans. If someone doesn't have that duress they're TS, but not with GID.


The Standards are supported by a great many TG support groups.


Which in and of itself is meaningless. I know of TG support groups that think it would be impossible to have a screening process that was too strict. There are trans support groups who feel that anyone who isn't 100% stealth, 100% of the time- shouldn't transition at all. Etc.


Before the Standards existed, things were much more difficult for TGs seeking medical support. Back then, doctors were less aware of transgenderism and would be keen to dismiss people with gender dysphoria or try to "cure" them.

So you're saying the SoC is the reason for treatment access improving over the last few decades? I disagree, I would strongly argue that it was the erosion of the gender-clinic system that was responsible for making access easier. If you don't want this thread to go way OT, I don't mind carrying this into PM's btw.

[Bob's Tgirls]

Hey Bob - if you can you photoshop my hips, waist and maybe paste Kelly's face and Mandys dick on my photos you can shoot me. :-)

LOL,
TS Jamie :-)

Just trying to add some levity to a serious subject...

That's a good one. Just to be clear though, when I touch up photos, I just cover up things, do color correction and so forth. I don't go as far as changing a girl's shape though.

[MrF]

Great topic, I've been wondering about this for a long time. So I gather the medical grade silicone is not very dangerous ?

I've known this one TGirl for 5 years. When I first met her, she was thin-hipped and had small hormonal breasts. I thought she was breathtakingly beautiful, but she apparently felt the pressure to get pumped. If only she could have accepted herself as beautiful and avoided this !

I'm not sure what problems she faces now, but her silicone has migrated (she's complained about that), and she has discolored skin and some lumpiness in her buttocks. In my opinion it makes her look worse. Fortunately, she didn't put silicone in her face (I've seen the results of that 10+ years down the road, and it's often not a pretty sight.)

I still like her in general, but I think her procedures backfired. I wonder how common that is ? (I don't know many TGirls.) Perhaps the example can serve as a lesson for others considering getting pumped . If only a few can avoid the mistakes it will be worth the discussion.

[Bob's Tgirls]

Great topic, I've been wondering about this for a long time. So I gather the medical grade silicone is not very dangerous ?

I've known this one TGirl for 5 years. When I first met her, she was thin-hipped and had small hormonal breasts. I thought she was breathtakingly beautiful, but she apparently felt the pressure to get pumped. If only she could have accepted herself as beautiful and avoided this !

I'm not sure what problems she faces now, but her silicone has migrated (she's complained about that), and she has discolored skin and some lumpiness in her buttocks. In my opinion it makes her look worse. Fortunately, she didn't put silicone in her face (I've seen the results of that 10+ years down the road, and it's often not a pretty sight.)

I still like her in general, but I think her procedures backfired. I wonder how common that is ? (I don't know many TGirls.) Perhaps the example can serve as a lesson for others considering getting pumped . If only a few can avoid the mistakes it will be worth the discussion.

It's all dangerous. It's just a matter of degree. If any of that stuff regardless of what is injected into a vein the person can die or suffer permanent health problems.

Even medical grade silicone (whatever that is) is a foreign substance being injected into the body. For me, simple logic says don't do that. But the girls are faced with a serious quality of life dilemma that us guys will never understand. So those who feel the need to do this will. I just hope they all learn to do it in the safest possible way.

[tsmandy]

Any option a girl chooses to transition is potentially dangerous. Like Sarah said even an orchi can have serious effects on the immune system (not too mention sanity) of girls with a sudden lack of hormones. I've had friend who 6 months after their orchi stop taking hormones for a couple of weeks and totally lost her mind. It was really sad, we had to have her committed for her own safety (which was an incredibley painful decision since she hated the psych institutions and was a wild creature) once she started wandering the streets of West Philly butt naked in the snow and ice.

Taking hormones increases risks of certain types of cancer dramatically, and I'm not even getting into comsetic surgeries or silicone injections, or the risks we face from other poeple.

The point is, being a TS, especially a TS who does not come from a wealthy background, is a dangerous life. We know all these risks and we continue to take them every day, because the alternative is not worth living.

So porn producers and tricks could tell girls what to do with their bodies, but it would hardly have an effect on the decisions girls make about how to solve the pressing short term problems that we all must deal with.

[LG]

Thus far, out of 107 votes, 58% believe that those profiting from TS porn (producers, etc) SHOULD take action to prevent further deaths from silicone pumping. It's been a good debate and it was good to hear the opinions from all sides: the girls, the producers and web managers, the admirers, etc.



And, to SarahG, should you want to, feel free to PM me, but I think an open discussion in the forums can be useful to.

[SarahG]

And, to SarahG, should you want to, feel free to PM me, but I think an open discussion in the forums can be useful to.

I don't mind either way, I just don't know what your preferences are, in terms of trying to keep this thread on topic.

[DimitriWolfe]

Do you really think pornographers in poverty stricken countries are really concerned about these girls in anyway other than how it affects their profit margin?

Funny comment coming from a guy posting on a porno message board but I'll entertain you anyway.

You seem to forget that pornography is a business and that business does not involve educating, baby-sitting or taking care of other adults. Our business is producing porn, not chasing down models and explaining to them the dangers of injecting their body with silicone. They wouldn't listen even if we did. Of course if someone asks my advice while they are on my set I will give it, but that always goes in one ear and out the other and that is the case with humans in general, not just porn models.

Responsible producers will have health tests done if the shoot requires it but generally speaking a pornographers responsibilities end there. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.


They are paying them practically nothing, so keeping them as uneducated as possible is what gives them the upper hand. It is a perfect example of how to move forward by holding someone else back.

Producers who shoot in other countries pay what is the norm in that country. It doesn't matter if you are a ditch digger, a doctor or a porn model, you will be paid by that countries standards, not the standards of the outside world or the world you came from. That is how business works.

Furthermore, when did it become a pornographers job to educate or help advance anyone in any other field of work? We hire them to perform a job and they do. Perhaps we should start searching for models when they are kids and help raise them, educating them and helping them along in life so when they become 18 and can make a porno, we have done our duty as porno-parents.

You are completely out of touch with reality pal and I find it amusing you would say such ignorant things about the porn industry while hanging out on a porn TS message board with your dick in your hand. That's pretty ironic. Though I'd bet you don't have a problem buying clothes, shoes or furniture that has been made in these same countries, where the workers actually are underpaid and exploited, often times they are minors working in sweat shops. I doubt you have any problem with that at all when you are at the mall looking for a new pair of shoes but hey, exploited kids working 18 hours a day for pennies is not as bad as paying an adult a few hundred bucks to masturbate on video, right?

[DimitriWolfe]

As for dissemination of information being a responsibility of webmasters, photographers, DVD producers, etc., I say no it's not because we are not experts. I think the gay and lesbian centers, transgender supports groups and the like are better suited for that.

I made the post above without reading this entire thread. After reading it I found that quote from Bob and wanted to say that what he says, we are not experts, really is the most important thing said here.

Neither Bob, Senchai, Buddy Woods, DJAsia, Wendy Williams, Myself or any other producer are experts in that field. Taking advice from a pornographer on health issues that don't relate to porn is just as dangerous as not taking any advice at all. Sure, we could all tell them not to do it and that it's bad for them, but why can't get into the science of why. We can't honestly answer their questions. Not that they would listen anyway but we would totally be talking out of our asses.

If the subject comes up, I tell a lot of these models (99% of them are prostitutes) that I work with in Thailand how HIV is on the rise again there and to be careful. Each and every one of them say the same broken record thing, "I always use condom." Of course I see them online getting fucked bareback on some message board or newsgroup two months later. People are simply going to do what they want to do and ALWAYS learn the hard way. That's just what we, as a species, do.

[lisaparadise]

Following the news of the death of yet another girl- Kelly Tavares- from injected industrial silicone, I feel something needs to be done.

According to my friend praetor (in another thread), the Brazilian Government has tried to raise awareness and even imposed punishments for the "bombadeiras" (those who inject silicone in the girls' bodies), but with no success.

I think now it is up to those who deal directly with these girls to take action and launch a major campaign to raise awareness. I am talking about the photographers, the other models, the people who run the websites and produced the DVDs- everyone involved in the porn and escorting industry. If the people who have made money by photographing these girls or putting them online can do this, they can give something substantial back to the TS community, especially in Brazil, where this problem is common and deaths occur frequently.

What do you think? I'd especially like to hear the views of Seanchai and others involved in the industry.


See also:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18576
http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/silicone/silicone-death.html
http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/silicone/ OR
http://theipowa.org/?q=book/export/html/2

AND

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=42079

Kelly Tavares, RIP
http://trannys.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/kelly20tavares20-2009.jpgFirst off we who get the silicone is to blame not the pumpers nor the people surrounding us,we all know the risk and rewards and as adults we make the choice period.its the same old arguement its not the guns that kill its the finger on the gun.nothin gets by the sisterhood when it comes to silicone,yes there are other safer methods but its simply our choice,i have silicone in my lips ass and hips infact 2 weeks ago i had my ass done again for the fifth time in 5 years i dont push silicone infact i tell everyone who asks me not to do it and i give them the facts and let them decide.

[lisaparadise]

or fallen down from there hips to there legs and ankles.

The think that the girls with silicone and have issues with it dont talk about it! They dont want anyone to know! Its a very hush hush issue.

I know of other girls that have died or had serious heath issues from silicone its quite sad. thats so true but i am the acception as ive told everyone i could about the dangers of silicone first hand when i had my forehead cheeks and chin done 3 years ago it all went bad dropped and moved everywhere in my face and had to get 2 facelifts in 3 years to get it all out and it cost me thousands of dollars cause i didnt believe it would happen to me,i spent 2 months waking up to swollan shut eyes with silicone burning and sealing my eyes shut because it moved down into my eyes and blocked my tearducts,it was a nightmare ill never forget.so now i have sicicone in my lips ass and hips,ive had absolutly no problems in those ereas and have had my ass and hips done like 5 times now.my doctor here in toronto would like to have pumping legal and would have no problem doing it cause even she believes medical grade silicone is safe if a trained phycian does it so maybe we should take it to congress and go that route?

[Celeste]

Its not their responsibility too. Girls know what they are getting themselves into... And they will do it regardless!

[DimitriWolfe]

And they will do it regardless!

You can close and lock this thread after that comment of truth.