Homophobia and hypocrisy on hungangels

[sissyrachel]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?

[Andrew Johnson]

Great post! You're absolutely right too!

[El Nino]

Great post. I just hope that it doesn't go "over the head" of those who could truly benefit from reading it. The sad thing is though, is that ignorance tends to stay ignorant. But, great post...

[trish]

Kudos, sissyrachel.

[altarica]

I totally agree with your post.
The trouble is that bigotry of all forms is drummed into a lot of people at an early age, by their families, peers and even some of their teachers.
Intelligent and morally just folks see past all this and adopt a live and let live attitude, the terminally ignorant just rejoice in their fears and prejudices. A lot of people enjoy being ignorant these days, never having read a book is a badge they wear with pride for example, feeling it makes them cool, not ignorant.
Let me pose myself as a case in point.
Both my parents are slightly to the right of Ghenghis Khan and bigoted in the extreme. This doesn't just apply politically, but extends itself to race, religion and even other nationalities. My brother is less bigoted than them but still a bigot.
Me? Well I am lucky in that I have led an interesting life, met and worked with people of all sexualities and religions, races and nationalities and have kept an open and receptive mind. I would describe myself as...Well just me, I like GGs TVs TSs cute pretty boys and other things too and am comfortable with my sexuality.
I have to keep it hidden though due to to the derision I would suffer at work and fear of losing my family.
So basically what I am trying to get across is this.
Leave other people alone, don't you have enough shit to deal with in your own day to day struggles to keep you busy?
I guess some folks just like having others that they feel they can look down upon.

[phobun]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?
Another long-winded, moralizing rant. Snooze.

[trish]

It strikes me that rachel is definitely not moralizing; just asking for a little more tolerance. The moralizing is being done by those who attempt to assert their own moral superiority, claiming for example they are somehow better than gays. Intolerance is the hallmark of a narrow mind and a constipated morality.

[justatransgirl]

LOL - "I still have sexual thoughts about men."

The truth comes out at last... Sissyrachael is really Ted Haggard in disguise. :-)

Giggles,
TS Jamie :-)

[callahac]

Excellent, especially the last paragraph!

[Teydyn]

Great write, my guess is it will go unnoticed by most who could learn from it.


Another long-winded, moralizing rant. Snooze.
If it is, its at least written in an inteligent way, using no swear words, insulting no one and more.

Unlike many posters she talks about...

[Ts CinthyaNY]

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

Great post!!! . I really would like to see this board to enforce more the tolerance that it should exist for any determined group of people . As it is the LGBT community it has the lack of tolerance between each category in definitions. It's state as Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender as we are a part of it's whole but with the huge gap that identify us as a Trangender Community , please do not confuse ourselves.... There is a big gap between this the LGB community and the Transgender Community: SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY.

A Homosexual Man/Woman it is a person who SEXUAL ORIENTATION is the sexual and emotional attraction to members of the same sex.

In the other Hand GENDER IDENTITY it is a person's sense of gender as a Man or Woman and the society's perception of this individual.Self concept or self identity is the process in which a person understands how others perceive them . A TRANSGENDER person refers to the placing of a person into one of the gender categories male or female. When someone do feel comfortable and belong to the gender it was born and decide to undergoing to the transition to change it physique to match the gender feels belong to .

On my experience in the LGB & T Community it exist the stigma between it. We can mention the TRANSPHOBIA as a the discrimination and intolerance towards a Trangender individual, I said it before, personally I lived and feel it before, and it more visible in the gay community. Don't get me wrong my bests friends are gays but... We Transgender for the most part take a role in LGBT community as a entertainers and that is way of we be part and blend I might be wrong but like I said in my personal experience.
And as SissyRachel stated " Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men".

As a Trangender woman I feel that we are the bridge between the Straight community and the so call LGBT community, if we put aside all the sexual implications that it give us as a guy fantasies or perfect woman etc. Being the link between this two groups it give us a responsibility to learn to carry that role in society and certainly to live as the woman we struggle to be, physically and in mindset. We are not only here in this board only for the sexual purposes but to educate to each member and of course to be reciprocated as well.





I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?


I strongly believed that everyone is entitled to give a response in each topic, and we may do not like when someone respond but we all have differences of opinions and how do we input them. I guess we here to debate in and not all it is as sweet as we want to but yes may be we sometimes cross certain boundaries and hurt other people feelings but that's the bitterness of the freedom we have to speak of our mind and there is when things get more interesting for all of us. After all if someone try to hurt my feelings if it is me that decide if to fire back using the same language, to answer with more intellect or with my silence.

Hope that this board entice other members to bring up their point of view with intelligence and sense.

*** Hugs ** Cinthya...


:wink:

[Silcc69]

To long to read i'll wait for the other replies.

[yodajazz]

...

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?
I say Great post also. I whole heartedly agree. Part of the issue is the human tendency to confuse the issue of our personal preferences, into thinking something is actually better. What we each like defines us, but it does not mean it is really better.

Ts women have a big part in setting the atmosphere here. I think most probably go through an indentity phase of wondering if they are gay. Then they go to identify as trans women. I think that some then start to define themselves as better than gay men, not just different. Then as they develop it is natural to think of ‘straight’ men as confirming of their female identity. So again you have the process of them defining so called straight men as better than those that are attracted to them as they are.

All of humanity would be helped if more people can understand that one is category of persons is better than another.

[GinX]

I wholeheartedly agree with Rachel's assessment. There is a great deal of divisiveness on this board, especially between men who deem themselves 'straight' while others they label 'gay'.

There's always been a double standard in this regard. A lot of guys on this board lust after t-girls and tell themselves "Ok, as long as I avoid <insert particular sex act here>, with a t-girl, then I'm still straight". These same men readily apply the epithet 'gay' to any guy who engages in those sex acts with t-girls that they find to be 'gay'. What they never understand is this: a sexual act is neither gay nor straight, it just is...they don't define gay or straight. The only thing that determines if one is gay or straight is the preference of partners, i.e., if you prefer to have sex ONLY with members of the same sex, then you'd be gay...if you prefer to have sex ONLY with members of the opposite sex, you'd be a heterosexual...and if you prefer both....

...then it doubles your chances for a date on Friday night :D

[fitz207]

I say Great post also. I whole heartedly agree. Part of the issue is the human tendency to confuse the issue of our personal preferences, into thinking something is actually better. What we each like defines us, but it does not mean it is really better.

Ts women have a big part in setting the atmosphere here. I think most probably go through an indentity phase of wondering if they are gay. Then they go to identify as trans women. I think that some then start to define themselves as better than gay men, not just different. Then as they develop it is natural to think of ‘straight’ men as confirming of their female identity. So again you have the process of them defining so called straight men as better than those that are attracted to them as they are.

All of humanity would be helped if more people can understand that one is category of persons is better than another.[/quote]
:claps :claps :claps.... Well said!

[MrF]

I also agree wholeheartedly with the original post. Live and let live. Respect others.

Unfortunately, though, human nature is very slow to change. You can lecture at people, but hardly anyone will change their attitude. About the only thing you can accomplish is that maybe some more reasonable people will have the courage to speak up, and some of the shriller ones will get bored and go away. But this is not likely. Anyway, it's good to see some people who agree with me on this subject.

[sissyrachel]

I'm quite impressed that this post has got the number of responses it has, and many of them are quite intelligent and considered. I know that saying things like this can't change the world, but we've got to start somewhere. Maybe just a few people here could be just a bit more considerate or tolerant and that would be a good step.



Let me pose myself as a case in point.
Both my parents are slightly to the right of Ghenghis Khan and bigoted in the extreme. This doesn't just apply politically, but extends itself to race, religion and even other nationalities. My brother is less bigoted than them but still a bigot.
Me? Well I am lucky in that I have led an interesting life, met and worked with people of all sexualities and religions, races and nationalities and have kept an open and receptive mind. I would describe myself as...Well just me, I like GGs TVs TSs cute pretty boys and other things too and am comfortable with my sexuality.
I have to keep it hidden though due to to the derision I would suffer at work and fear of losing my family.


Yes, it can be difficult in a world where plenty of people can display quite narrow minded prejudice to be upfront about your feelings or desires. Equally, the least we can do is not to join in with other people's bigotry for fear of being left out. It's good that you're comfortable with your sexuality, that in itself is a very positive thing compared to some, even if you have to keep aspects of it to yourself.

Although obviously in public there are clearly occassions that demand us not to be upfront about her sexuality for fear of reprisals of various kinds, surely this is entirely unnecessary in the anonymity of an internet forum. Are people really so afraid of being thought gay by a group of total strangers that they will put down anyone who is or even seems a little bit gay themselves?



It strikes me that rachel is definitely not moralizing; just asking for a little more tolerance. The moralizing is being done by those who attempt to assert their own moral superiority, claiming for example they are somehow better than gays. Intolerance is the hallmark of a narrow mind and a constipated morality.


Thanks Trish. I'm aware that my post could come across as a bit of a rant. I guess I was trying to get something off my chest as much as anything. As you say, I'm not trying to be moralizing just hoping people can realise that they're way of life isn't necessarily morally superior to others.



LOL - "I still have sexual thoughts about men."

The truth comes out at last... Sissyrachael is really Ted Haggard in disguise.

Giggles,
TS Jamie


As I'm British I don't have a clue who that is, but, having looked him up, I think that is exactly a great example of the kind of guy who would be much happier if he could be more accepting of others and, especially, himself. :)



Ts women have a big part in setting the atmosphere here. I think most probably go through an indentity phase of wondering if they are gay. Then they go to identify as trans women. I think that some then start to define themselves as better than gay men, not just different. Then as they develop it is natural to think of ‘straight’ men as confirming of their female identity. So again you have the process of them defining so called straight men as better than those that are attracted to them as they are.


I agree that, perhaps for the reasons you state, some of the girls do behave in such a way as to encourage homophobic attitudes (especially as their admirers are very quick to jump in and agree with whatever they say). However, I feel this is not the main problem, what is far more common is the insulting and antagonistic attitudes between male posters, unprompted by anything the girls have said. I think this stems from a wider problem than can be attributed to the behaviour of the women here. Furthermore, if you feel the ts women have a big hand in setting the atmosphere for the guys, the reverse is also true. If the men treated the women with more respect then it would foster more respect being given in reverse. If the men weren't worried so much that transwomen are still partly men and therefore liking them is gay, they wouldn't resort to slinging insults about a transwoman's manliness any time she shot them down.



There's always been a double standard in this regard. A lot of guys on this board lust after t-girls and tell themselves "Ok, as long as I avoid <insert particular sex act here>, with a t-girl, then I'm still straight". These same men readily apply the epithet 'gay' to any guy who engages in those sex acts with t-girls that they find to be 'gay'. What they never understand is this: a sexual act is neither gay nor straight, it just is...they don't define gay or straight. The only thing that determines if one is gay or straight is the preference of partners, i.e., if you prefer to have sex ONLY with members of the same sex, then you'd be gay...if you prefer to have sex ONLY with members of the opposite sex, you'd be a heterosexual...and if you prefer both....

...then it doubles your chances for a date on Friday night


Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous, but my main problem isn't so much with what people might label "straight" or "gay", but with the assumption that if people do the "gay" thing this makes them somehow worse or more disgusting.

And, yes, if you're open minded about who you like, your chances of getting laid are always going to be better. :wink:



Unfortunately, though, human nature is very slow to change. You can lecture at people, but hardly anyone will change their attitude. About the only thing you can accomplish is that maybe some more reasonable people will have the courage to speak up, and some of the shriller ones will get bored and go away. But this is not likely. Anyway, it's good to see some people who agree with me on this subject.


Sometimes I'd settle for just that. Just reading the positive posts in this thread makes me think better about the whole thing. The world might not change completely but any people being that little bit more thoughtful makes it that little bit better.

[sissyrachel]

One more thing. Another related thing that I find irritating sometimes is the notion that the more feminine a transwoman looks the more that makes her a woman and the more masculine she is then she shouldn't be considered a woman at all. This thread is the main example of that - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=31125.

While obviously this is a board primarily dealing with pornography/the sex industry and there's nothing wrong with preferring to look at certain women above others (I want to see sexy pictures as much as the next guy or girl) or in complimenting those that do look particularly fine. However, when this level of judgement by looks crosses over into assuming someone is a better or worse person because of it then that's when the problem begins.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to be seen as a guy or a girl has nothing to do with what their body looks like. It's no harder for you to refer to someone as "she" or "her" if they perceive themselves as a woman, no matter what they look like, yet too often people do end up resorting to insulting a girl by calling her a man.

I don't know where I'm going with this really, just that it's another situation where a little respect or consideration is no extra effort.

[flabbybody]

there will always be assholes who won't use the proper pronoun when referring to m2f transgenders. to this day media and police stories always refer to tgirls as men. the tragic murder of a Bronx working girl in 2006 comes to mind.
even when she was dead the people reporting the story failed to give her basic human respect.
the headline was something like "Male prostitute killed by outraged john" some shit like that

[Helvis2012]

Don't worry about it.

[MacShreach]

Don't worry about it.

Ah! Postmodernism! Cool.

[tstv_lover]

Great thread and excellent OP.

Perhaps the homophobia highlights instances of guys seeking to deal with demons/fears about their own personal sexual preference when lashing out at others. A case of "methinks he doth protest too much"?

As for guys who praise transsexuals who appear more feminine, I guess that's simply appreciation of eye candy without understanding the challenges and complexities facing each transsexual girl on a daily basis.

One aspect that I always find strange is that guys encourage transsexual girls in their femininity but a section of guys lose interest in transsexuals when they become post-op. If we want to encourage tgirls to fully explore their femininity then (for many) this will naturally lead to becoming post-op. Perhaps the reaction to a girl becoming post-op says more about the guy than about the girls.

The journey is different for everyone. My current transsexual girlfriend has opted to stay pre-op, which is her choice.

Anyway, thanks for raising these points.

[MacShreach]

<snip>

On my experience in the LGB & T Community it exist the stigma between it. We can mention the TRANSPHOBIA as a the discrimination and intolerance towards a Trangender individual, I said it before, personally I lived and feel it before, and it more visible in the gay community. Don't get me wrong my bests friends are gays but... We Transgender for the most part take a role in LGBT community as a entertainers and that is way of we be part and blend I might be wrong but like I said in my personal experience.
And as SissyRachel stated " Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men".

<snip>

Hope that this board entice other members to bring up their point of view with intelligence and sense.

*** Hugs ** Cinthya...


:wink:

This is probably the most interesting post in this thread, IMO, well said, Cinthya. The fact is as is often observed, gay men are often happy to have the support of transgender people when they want to make up the numbers for political reasons, but at other times they don't want to know.

What has to be understood is that gay men, whether they are "out" or the type of gay man who chases transgender women in the hope that he can persuade one to penetrate him, simply do not regard transsexual women as women; they see them as men in drag.

Then, homosexual activists across the world have been pursuing a policy of "gay, straight or lying," and some have been involved in deliberately "outing" men against their wills (and frequently with catastrohic consequences.) To understand this you need to understand that what is sometimes called the "egalitarian" gay movement is a relatively recent phenomenon. Before the mid-20th century there was no such formalised group. However for the last forty years these men have worked hard to promote the view that homosexuality is about attraction to the physical presentation of the same gender. Hence the "clone" gay man. For these men, both the receiver of sex and the giver are equally homosexual. They have definitely done a great deal to further the status of gay men, and many see transgender women as gay men who are not playing by the new rules. There is a certain narrow-mindedness of attitude amongst these men (Peter Tatchell is a good example) that makes them intolerant of people who do not conform to what they see as the modern ideal of the gay man. Thus they resent transgender women, especially transsexual women, and they resent the men who are attracted to them, as they feel that these men are actually attracted to other men and should come out and be openly gay.

The reason for this is interesting in this context, and that is that central to the issue of male homosexuality is the penetration of a man by a penis. So the gay men we are talking about, look at a relationship between a transgender woman and a man, and say, (since they do not believe that a transgender woman is a woman) that this is a relation between two men, so both are gay and should admit this.

This argument, however, ignores the fact that while the egalitarian flavour of gay has been around for only a few years, anal sex has been around for as long as people have. However, until recently, in all the cultures I have researched this in, in relations involving anal penetration between two people with penises, one took the female role and the other the male. This was the case amongst the "mollies" of 18th-century London and their counterparts all over Europe; and it is in this relationship that the travestis of Latin culture have their roots; one partner is female (ie penetrated) and the other is male (the penetrator.) Much more importantly, however, is that in these cultures, and the travesti culture demonstrates this clearly, only the partner who receives the penis is seen as homosexual.

This view is sometimes claimed, by egalitarian gay men, to be "old-fashioned," but in fact it is not, it is simply another phenomenon. The wilful attempt by some modern gay thinkers to belittle transgenderism comes from their belief that it undermines the work they have done to make it all right to be "gay and masculine" and that "being gay does not make you less of a man." Well, that is true within their model, but the rigidity of their attitude leaves no room for transgender women.

This attitude affects transsexual women, who are not really within the "transgender" group in any case, especially once they achieve SRS. Transsexual women "overwhelmingly believe themselves to be women," therefore should be expected to behave like women, dress like women and have sex like women; unfortunately many gay men conflate this group with homosexual transvestite men (whom, I accept, may be feeling their way forward and be yet to discover that they are in fact transsexual) who enjoy sex with men.

This is partly because of what they see as the common factor; the penetration of a person with a penis by another penis; and under the egalitarian gay model, there is a case here.

However, when we think about transsexual women, we have to ask, "When did this person, who was born with boy bits, become a woman?" Well, it is certainly clear to me that a person who believes herself to be a woman and has a vagina, is a woman, irrespective of how she was born. And it is equally clear that a relationship between a man and such a woman is heterosexual.

So the question becomes, "At what point does the transsexual woman become a woman?" To me, to suggest that women are created on the operating table is ridiculous and flies in the face of everything I ever heard from transsexual women themselves. They were women long before their surgeries, indeed most say they always were; surgery was, for them, a matter of making their bodies conform to what they actually were.

Therefore it is quite possible for a heterosexual relationship to exist between a pre-operative transsexual woman and a man. But hang on--the pre-op transwoman still has a penis-- how can two people with penises be in bed together and be heterosexual? Well, if one is actually a woman, then this will be determined by the nature of the relationship; if the woman behaves as a woman, ie, is receiving in sex, and the man gives, then this is as close an approximation to heterosexual sex as we can manage under the circumstances, and while the man may not be quite as straight as a pulpit-basher, he's not necessarily homosexual. He's just ignoring a physical attribute of his lover that he's not interested in anyway.

What, however, if the centre of the man's attraction is not the woman's breasts, her face, her smile, her eyes, her feminine beauty, but her penis? Well, in this case, the man is either bisexual or homosexual because his attraction to the woman is a homosexual one--it's not her woman bits he wants, it's her boy bits. Or maybe both. It does not matter; men who obsess over penises are indulging in homosexual desire.

So, is there something wrong with being a man obsessed with penises? No. Is there something wrong with being gay? No; gay men should be proud of what they are. So is there something wrong with a man being in bed with a pre-operative transsexual woman and interested only in using her male equipment to penetrate him? No, there's not; it's just homosexual sex, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What, however, if the woman would far rather be penetrated, does not like people touching her boy bits, doesn't want even to be reminded that they are there? What if, for the woman, sex is a powerful and necessary reaffirmation of her womanhood, in which she is willingly taken by a strong masculine man? Well, that is fine; that is called heterosexual love.

What if the man, however, uses either his male dominance or his financial power to persuade the woman to behave in bed as she would were she still a man, to penetrate him with her penis? Well, this is a homosexual relationship, and if the man is causing the woman to behave in this way in disregard of her desires, of her need to be affirmed as a woman, then, effectively, it is an abusive homosexual relationship. Note: even though the man is sexually submissive in this case, he is still the dominant partner, since it is his will that the woman is obeying.

(And if any of you ever wonder why it is that so many transsexual women decry "chasers" this is the reason-- they are fed up with men trying to coerce them to behave like men in bed, instead of the women they actually are.)

There are men who are so utterly homophobic that they will never accept a simple truth; a man obsessing about an erect penis is indulging in a homosexual act, and if being penetrated by said erect penis is his preferred method of sexual gratification, he's homosexual. Some of these specimens infest this site.

It is with his denial of this that many "out" homosexual men, who recognise that his behaviour is at once homosexual and deeply homophobic, have grievance. They rightly say, "This man is gay; he's obsessed with penises, yet he will not admit what he is and accept it like a man."

Finally, what about the women? How does a woman feel when a man does not accept her for what she is, a beautiful, desirable woman, but instead, as soon as he knows she has boy bits, is on his knees yelling "Make me your bitch!" How does a woman feel when she realises that in order to satisfy men-- her clients, perhaps, either directly or via photography-- she will have to get her penis hard and that this will mean coming off her hormones? How does a woman feel, when the men who previously slobbered over images of her, when she finally gets what she has always dreamed of, her SRS, tell of how broken-hearted they are that she "has had the chop" and express in the most vile and pejorative terms which I see no need to repeat here, their contempt for her post-operative state?

I think even the cock-hounds know how much they hurt the women, and it is their deep-seated guilt that causes their shrill bitterness whenever their status is noted.

I do not pretend to be a saint, but one thing I do know; I love women. I always have. I don't really care how a woman got to be a woman, if she has the womanly things that ring my bell. Maybe I'm shallow for exulting female beauty; but I am a trained artist, a photographer; visual stimulus is very important to me. It's just the way it is. I was first attracted to transsexual women by a beautiful post-operative woman, and that remains my main interest. I see beautiful pre-operative women in the same way as I see a flower about to open, on the threshhold of blossom. And I was brought up in an old-fashioned way, to love and protect women.

So when I see men who are homosexual but too spineless to admit it (as if there was something wrong with it) and who abuse transsexual women to gratify their homosexual lust, I speak up.

If that appears to gay men as gay-bashing, I'm sorry. It's not, and I have no beef with you guys. It's cock-hound bashing. It's a totally different thing. Sort of like pest control.

[Tika]

It's critically important to remember the psychological aspect of being transgendered with respect to homophobia.

A transgender woman does not like being called a man, ever. It's offensive and denies who she is, her essence, her identity. Thus, there's often a reactionary stance taken to distance themselves from gay men. "I'm not like them", she says. "They're faggots. I'm a *real* woman!"

It's insecurity and self-loathing, defense of one's self and one's identity all coming out in hate aimed at others. Why do you think the first attack transwomen make on other transwomen is to call them "he/him" or attack their appearance? Denial of identity. "Oh you're just a brick/blocker". That person that I don't like isn't like me, they're a man, man!

Why do you think there are so many transwomen addicted to plastic surgery and silicone injections? They can't escape their bodies. They've gotten so obsessed with altering themselves to remove any trace of "manhood" that they go overboard. It's the same thing as the crossdresser with thousands of outfits, wigs, boots/shoes in their collection - just another way of trying to "prove" their femininity, temporarily versus permanently.

It happens with pretty much everyone. Transwomen look down on others - surgery chasers look down on others who don't have plastic surgery, we look down on crossdressers because they're just playing around with their "female life" and we live it 24/7. It's the nature of people in general to distinguish between self/other and sadly, use negative terms and thinking to make that distinction.

For real fun, try factoring in that there's a growing body of transwomen that are lesbian-identified. We're not in any way interested in men. We're attracted to women, whether GG or TG. That's a whole other can of worms, and I'd say that gets just as much if not more hate from the transgender and LGB community.

[MacShreach]

For real fun, try factoring in that there's a growing body of transwomen that are lesbian-identified. We're not in any way interested in men. We're attracted to women, whether GG or TG. That's a whole other can of worms, and I'd say that gets just as much if not more hate from the transgender and LGB community.

That's true-- there's no strict correlation between transsexualism and orientation and from the very sketchy info I've seen, transwomen seem to show a similar orientation mix to natal women, in terms of percentage-- so as the total number of transwomen grows, the number who are lesbian must also grow.

There was certainly one girl who used to post here-- I can't remember her name--who strongly identified as a transsexual lesbian. She certainly wasn't ostracised for that here, anyway.

Interestingly, in the UK, where the law has been fucked up as only we can, married couples now have to divorce before a transsexual partner's gender can be legally changed, which is going to haul us back, yet again, in front of the European Court of Human Rights-- why? because the religious nuts see it as an acceptance of homosexual marriage, since both partners would legally be the same gender...But they're the same people even if they stay married and don't bother with the legal gender change....And now people are being forced to abandon a fundamental right-- to remain married without interference from the state-- in order to access another-- to have the correct legal gender.....Bizarre. :shrug Oh well.

[TS JENNA]

teehee

[GinX]

A thorough sorting of the posts here will reveal a long discussion that attempts to ascertain and define what a homosexual is and what a homosexual is not. The current trend in thinking here appears to be that if you are a man and permit yourself to either be anally penetrated by or enjoy being anally penetrated a pre-operative transsexual than you are most definitely a homosexual.

This trend in thinking stems from age old social morays that automatically equate male anal penetration to homosexuality. If a man is willing to receive a penis into his anus, he must therefore be gay. This notion, though seen across many cultures, fails to take into account that human sexuality is a bit more complex than that and ignores the simple truth that a sexual act is neither inherently heterosexual or homosexual...to give it any such label depends solely on those involved and their perception and intent.

What does that mean? Does this mean a man can actually enjoy anal penetration and not be considered gay? Absolutely, especially when you consider his perception and intent. I'll be happy use myself as an example.

I have discovered that being anally penetrated is pleasurable to me. As such, I would be happy to be anally penetrated by a pre-op transsexual if she wanted to perform that act. In the eyes of many, my willingness to do so qualifies me as gay or-since I happily enjoy sex with genetic women as well-at the very least, bisexual. What these many fail to add into their equation, however, is the perception of those involved, to wit, she does not see herself as a man having sex with another man nor do I see myself as being penetrated by a another man. Another further consideration is the intent of the parties involved. If my intent was solely to engage in anal sex for the purpose of feeling like I was having sex with a man, then I would agree that this was merely latent homosexuality at work, but since I view anal sex as only a part of the entire sexual experience with her and since I possess no desire or intent to be sexually intimate with another male then it's plain to see there is "homosexual sex" happening because homosexual sex can only take place between two people who identify one another as being of the same gender.

I have the opinion that the reason this thinking has become so prevalent is that it is predicated by a fear that many transsexual admirers possess...namely, the fear of being associated with or being regarded as gay. It is worth noting that across the spectrum of the general population, pre-operative transsexuals are generally not regarded as women because they inherently possess male anatomy. While we here at HA disagree, the general population holds what we here find to be a rather distasteful opinion: that if you are a man and have sex with someone who claims to be female, but possesses male genitalia as well as other male physical traits, you are, in fact, having sex with another man...and that is homosexuality. I have no exact statistics to provide, but I can honestly say that for several years that has been the perception I have encountered and I am certain that many other people on this board can attest to the same.

Because of this perception, I believe there is a fear among transsexual admirers that will be labeled as gay even in the face of the fact they have never "bottomed" but only "topped". They realize the general population simply won't care. Thus, to avoid such an association, they make the attempt to move the spotlight from themselves onto those men who will engage in being anally penetrated by transsexuals and retreat to the claim that those are the REAL homosexuals, almost as if to say "I'm not the gay one, HE is."

I do not know if this issue will ever be solved. I don't even know if anyone will care what I have to say or if this will fall on dead ears. I can say, however, that until we as a people start thinking outside of the pre-conceived notions that we've been fed all our lives, debates like this one will rage through all time.[/i]

[Helvis2012]

Don't worry about it.

Ah! Postmodernism! Cool.


Yes, yes. Deconstructing the flimsy makes me laugh....sometimes.

:idea:

[DL_NL]

Interesting topic. Really weeds out the intelligent from the less so. :)

[Justawannabe]

Great topic, great initial post.

I found GinX and MacShreach to have very interesting posts, even though there are some contradictions at first read.

Tika and Sissyrachael both posted about insulting the women on the board. One thing to keep in mind about insults, it often says nothing about the person throwing the insult, but much about what they think will hurt the other person.

At the risk of being on of the unintelligent I'll leave it at that.

[Mikeyj01]

Excellent post, well said

[MacShreach]

It's critically important to remember the psychological aspect of being transgendered with respect to homophobia.

A transgender woman does not like being called a man, ever. It's offensive and denies who she is, her essence, her identity. Thus, there's often a reactionary stance taken to distance themselves from gay men. "I'm not like them", she says. "They're faggots. I'm a *real* woman!"





That also seems very fair. One thing I do find interesting is that many trans women, if they break up with a man or have a row, very quickly pull the "faggot," or an equivalent word, like "poof," or "maricon" out of the armoury, and deliver it, often at full volume.

I think this should indicate, to those who don't get it yet, that many transwomen resent being used as male sexual apparatus, even if they comply with this demand either for romantic ("Please baby, you know I love you, just this once,") or financial reasons.

I think even transwomen who do enjoy penetrating men, when they use this language, are revealing their understanding of the man's homosexuality; they're saying, "You think you can go with a transwoman and have her screw your ass, and it doesn't make you a faggot; but I know better because I was the one that did it. If you were a real man you'd have fucked me." Transwomen have to put up with a lot of abuse through no fault of their own, for being what they are; they must resent men using them to maintain a pretence of being straight, when as soon as they can, they're begging the girl to bugger them.

It's like the old saying--honest is as honest does.

[gotchagood]

I'm sorry, I'm all about the feminine. My body/senses can't tell the difference between a man that speaks softly and acts like a woman, no more than if the lights were out and I were kissed by a man who wore lipstick and perfume.

I guess what I'm trying to say is because I am male, my body desires anything feminine. Transsexuals and feminine men are very confusing to straight men. Most transgender (male to female) look smell and act in many cases better than gg's. ("Seriously", hung angels are kicking the crap out of gg's in the feminine/glamorous department; gg's need to be taking notes). Anyway, for the male senses, the sight, smell, taste, and feel, all aligns correctly in the mind. Everything points to "WOMAN." Now, because these senses (in most cases) are so strong, the male body responds to it anyway, overriding the penis issue. It's the same reason why most men aren't attracted to females who look like the transsexual "buck." Notice you don't see alot of the guys on this board posting pictures etc. of female to male transgenders? Anyway, Buck still has a vagina, but why are most guys turned off?? Because the male senses, sight, touch smell, etc. sees nothing but "MALE" and the body doesn't respond. Even though they are looking right at her vagina.

As far as being gay? Why would I be worried about that? When all my body and mind is doing is responding to what is natural. Responding to the person and natural signals of what it considers to be female.

I love women who are comfortable and embrace being female and work on being just that.(In my opinion) It's too bad a lot of gg's take their femininity for granted and don't try more.

I guess that's why I keep showing up here. You girls knock me out.

Have fun guys.

[tsntx]

that sounds really gay

just saying ;)

[gotchagood]

Also, as far a men being topped by transexuals. This society puts so much garbage on men. We can't cry, we have to always be strong, if we don't fight the burglar we're wimps, if you get beat by a girl you're a wimp, if you don't stand up for a woman you're a wimp. If she's not satisfied in bed, you're a wimp, if you fight back you're a wimp, if you don't know how to put a bike together you're a wimp. We're expected to die on the ship and we're always expected to take the knife.


Personally, I've never been with a man or transgender, but I can see how being in a submissive state for a change can allow a man to let out a lot of life's FRUSTRATIONS and for a change, be able to let go and relax without ridicule. Think about it.

Have a great day all.

[gotchagood]

What's gay about a man being attracted to what is or appears to be feminine????? Sounds natural to me. I'm sure most guys won't object.

[RubyTS]

that sounds really gay

just saying ;)

and THAT IS OKAYYYYYY ! 8)

[gotchagood]

I think that if you ladies have achieved the level to make straight men pick up on your vibes and "desire" you; it says a lot about who you are, what you have been doing with yourself and what you are trying/have accomplished. In my eyes, Bravo!

If I'm not mistaken I think that's what this whole thing is all about, right??? Being who you are or who you feel you are? If you're female, sorry you will attract "men". It's kinda like girls who get mad at guys for looking at their breast and then they go and get breast implants twice the size and put them in a push-up bra and then get madder at men for observing them more?? I swear men never win.

So please don't get mad at us guys who are attracted to you because you who you and what you look like to us.

Have a great day all.

[eclipsemint]

I have to say that I understand the sentiment in the OP. I am as equally impressed sometimes by the love and acceptance of HA members towards each other, as I am appalled sometimes at the animosity displayed by members of the same forum.

And I wonder...why?

We are members of a site where open discussion of these topics is possible. If we only wanted to look at dirty pictures, there are a plethora of such free sites already on the internet. HA is about discussion and understanding each other. That's what drew me to join this site.

So why the animosity?

A lot of the difficulty arises with the attempt to categorise oneself and others.

Wiki defines homosexuality as...
"As an orientation, homosexuality refers to "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, or romantic attractions primarily to" people of the same sex."

That presupposes a couple of preconceptions about two things:

a. Gender
b. Sexual attraction

And the other thing it presupposes is that both these things are clearly defined. So, a lot of confusion and animosity arises from time to time on a site like HA, where both gender and sexuality are not as clearly defined concepts as in other arenas of society.

In seeking to understand the nature of something we have to put the boundary somewhere. We do this in order to attempt to understand the causes and the consequences of behaviour. But we must never forget that when we draw up these boundaries; they are arbitrary. We make these distinctions ourselves.

Here are some examples of the gray area involving issues intrinsically associated with this whole forum, that proves that the boundaries we set are fluid and not as concrete as we would like to think.

Gender
The vast majority of society are born with a body that identifies them at birth as either male or female.

But there are exceptions:
- hermaphrodites with both gender sex organs present,
- people born with one set of sex organs but who identify themselves later in life as being in the the opposite gender. Some of them solve this gender dysphoria by surgery or hormones. Some transition all the way obtaining the full physical appearance of their identified gender. Some transition part way appearing one gender to the society while also maintaininig their original sex organs. Some even transition part way and then transition back to the original gender again later on. Further proof that it is not as clearly defined as we would like it to be.


Sexual Preference
The vast majority of society are heterosexual, which is convenient for racking up the population explosion, or propulgating the species depending on how you look at it.

To declare that I am gay or straight or bisexual is to immediately relay to you a whole set of understanding about my relationship and sexual preferences. It is a shortcut code that works most of the time for quickly assessing whether I am a potential sex partner to you. It seeks to make the next step easier.

But life is not so clear-cut. Trouble is, we all exist somewhere on the heterosexual-homosexual continuum.

This does not sit well with confirmed gay people who would like us all to believe that they have no choice in their sexual preference...and therefore, once gay means always gay, and in every way. I think this is what drives them to label people on the bisexual part of the spectrum as "closet" gays.

But they forget that even within the gay community there are many different types of gay identities. Again it is a continuum of tastes and preferences.

Here are some other situations that demonstrate that sexual preference is a continuum, not a clearly divided set.
- Is a lesbian couple using a strap-on dildo performing a "straight" act? Only if you define penetration of a vagina by a penis as inherently heterosexual.
- Is a heterosexual couple enjoying anal sex, where he is penetrating her, performing a homosexual act?
- Is a heterosexual couple enjoying anal sex, where she is using a strap-on dildo to penetrate him anally, performing a homosexual act?
- Some women experiment with lesbian relationships during college but afterwards experience heterosexual relationships from then on.
- Some heterosexual men who enter a male prevalent mini-society like the armed forces, boarding schools or prison may temporarily experience homosexual relationships, but then revert to strictly heterosexual relationships again when they are available when they return home.
- In some countries like Saudi Arabia where women and men are segregated and the opportunity for heterosexual relationships is restricted, men who consider themselves heterosexual enter into homosexual acts with other men but do not consider themselves to be gay.

Final word.
I recently started a post on this site called "Who would you turn gay for". I saw it on a high-rating television show, and I thought it would be a fun post. But I was naively not prepared for the animosity in some of the answers. On mainstream media, celebrities with clearly identified sexual preferences (either straight or gay) were quite happy to quickly answer the question without being too bothered by the notion that it therefore made them gay. (Gay celebrities like KD Lang answered who they would turn straight for.)

However, in response to that OP on HA, out of 70+ responses only 1 or 2 people actually answered the question in the fun spirit in which it was asked. The rest used the occasion to try to argue that a heterosexual person cannot imagine what it might be like to be attracted towards someone of the opposite sex - that only a gay person can. I found that much more fascinating and telling than the answers I expected to get.

We should be at least be prepared to give what we in turn expect in entering a forum like HA...tolerance, people, tolerance.

[tslvrnyc]

I'm amazed at the depths to which people go to convince themselves they're "100% straight" when clearly they're not.

"I didn't touch the penis, it's not gay"

If I give my friend a handjob while wearing thick wool gloves, is it gay? I was just helping the poor undersexed guy out, I never actually touched it.

If anal penetration makes one gay, what if a man is fucked by a hot GG wearing a strap-on?

[eclipsemint]

I'm amazed at the depths to which people go to convince themselves they're "100% straight" when clearly they're not.

"I didn't touch the penis, it's not gay"

If I give my friend a handjob while wearing thick wool gloves, is it gay? I was just helping the poor undersexed guy out, I never actually touched it.

If anal penetration makes one gay, what if a man is fucked by a hot GG wearing a strap-on?


Not to mention...if you give your friend a handjob with thick woollen gloves, is he having sex with sheep???

Or getting your GG to wear a strapon, that's just weird!

[MariaTgirl]

The way I see it, these guys who throw out the anti gay, anti CD/TV comments are completely in denial about their own gay feelings and therefore set up this paragon of a perfect shemale (who must be completely feminine in every aspect but one) in order to justify and excuse their own liking for cock.

[bte]

The way I see it, these guys who throw out the anti gay, anti CD/TV comments are completely in denial about their own gay feelings and therefore set up this paragon of a perfect shemale (who must be completely feminine in every aspect but one) in order to justify and excuse their own liking for cock.

If that was the case then are TS just a subset of the gay community. I don't think so, in my opinion, that is. Transwomen are just women who just happened to be born in the wrong body. I think a lot of people make the misconception that if a guy likes a TS and her cock then he must be gay, because he likes cock. Could it be that he is just attractive to the girl and cock was just something extra. It's like being at McDonalds and ordering a Big Mac and small fries, but when the order comes the cashier gives you a Big Mac and large fries. It was just something extra that came along with it. I bet a lot transwomen don't see themselves as part of the gay community, so why does that make the guys who like them to be gay?

I don't understand the gay comments and hypocrisy that goes along with this board, but that's just my opinion.

[tsntx]

that sounds really gay

just saying ;)

and THAT IS OKAYYYYYY ! 8)

totally

[barefootjoe69]

So when I see men who are homosexual but too spineless to admit it (as if there was something wrong with it) and who abuse transsexual women to gratify their homosexual lust, I speak up.




I think someone needs to look in the mirror!!!

Seems to me like you spent alot of time researching homosexuality to try and convince yourself that your not.

[trish]

I hate to say it, but TG’s are members of the gay, lesbian and transgender community. We endeavor to mold our bodies into the form of our self image and we succeed with varying success. But no matter how complete our transition, none of us can embark on any serious and honest relationship without informing our suitors of our special journey. Only at such a time when these confessions are regarded as mundane and inconsequential, will we be truly integrated into society; and until that time we will be part of the gender community which the society at large perceives of as different and estranged. So long as guys love us for the remnants of our former secondary sexual characteristics, we have not reached that time in future history. In the meantime, however, I’m willing to have fun with what we got. If you want to make love to my dick, I’m down with that. If you don’t want to touch it, I’m down with that too. Let’s just agree to fuck the norms and do with each other whatever feels good.

[zappa]

as far as two horny people are gettin' it on, who cares about gender ?

[jaycanuck]

I think this calls for an PSA from 2 of our favorite 80s stars.

http://www.verge.ca/hoff.jpg

[hippifried]

As I contemplate these questions from my darkened closet, I begin to focus more on the questions than the answers. It seems to me that it keeps coming back to the same question over & over again. The question is:

What are you?

It's not "Who are you?". That question would imply a tacit admission that there's something beyond the what. There is, isn't there? This constant catagorizing, shifting boundaries & all, comes from everywhere in the sexual sphere. Looks like lots of folks have strong opinions about "what" somebody else is, while vehemently denying that the same criteria apply to them. Not always though. There's also lots of folks who camp in one of the categories they've made up, & vehemently defend their boundaries. And of course there's lots of folks who either try to blur the boundaries of "what" or reject them altogether. Personally, I lean toward that last one, even though the arguments over the boundaries of "what" are very entertaining. I think "what" is a false dichotomy, & there's 6 billion odd dirrerent answers to "who".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7RbZNT5A2A

[tracy]

The bottom ne is if you like transsexuals then you're gay, it's hard to admit it but that's the truth, shemales are not women, period.

[jaycanuck]

The bottom ne is if you like transsexuals then you're gay, it's hard to admit it but that's the truth, shemales are not women, period.

I posted that picture because it was funny (c'mon...the Hoff and Coleman). But the truth is.. WHO GIVES A FUCK

People. Quit yer bitchin and get fucking. No labels, move on.

you like women great
you like guys great
you like tgirls great
you like women with 3rd nipples.....welll that's just sick.

But geezus people. The "am I gay", "you're a faggot" whining is really getting old. If someone calls you a faggot because you were bottomed and you took offence to that, just ask yourself one question "Did I like it?" If the answer is yes, then do it again!

Look in the end we're on this rock once. Get it wherever and however you can.

Soapbox speech done.

[Jericho]

you like women with 3rd nipples.....welll that's just sick.

Dammit, you Canadians are just so judgemental! 8)

[jaycanuck]

you like women with 3rd nipples.....welll that's just sick.

Dammit, you Canadians are just so judgemental! 8)

Look Jericho. There is a limit. :P

[Jericho]

you like women with 3rd nipples.....welll that's just sick.

Dammit, you Canadians are just so judgemental! 8)

Look Jericho. There is a limit. :P

Hey, every since "Total Recall"........ :lol:

[TommyFoxtrot]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?


This occurs and will continue to occur because the transsexual genre is basically 3 niches, 2 of them diametrically opposed, forced to live together.
It's The Real World of porn.

You have the guys who want to be fucked by TS, want to see other men get fucked by TS etc. and they apparently make up a slim majority of the people interested in the genre. You have the folks who are interested in fucking TS, or at least seeing someone else fuck a TS. Finally you have the CD types, who are kind of imo, autosexual. I think they just get off on themselves. Obviously there are people who float among the different factions, but that's the simple way of looking at it.

I really can't think of any other genre in straight porn where you are FORCED to see things that repulse or distract to the point of skipping over most of a scene. Imagine something you truly DON'T want to see in a porn, and that's what happens quite a bit to the folks in the MonTS faction. I'm sure it's the same way for the folks who are into TSonM, where they get a film and the dudes ends up fucking the tgirls the whole time.<-----Not like this is very common, but just to be fair.

I think as more and more "straight" men start to make their way into the Shemale/Ladyboy genre, you'll see the factions diverge I think. Hopefully there will be a critical mass of guys who want to see Dude fucking Shemale and the genres can just break apart. Obviously there are all sorts of combinations, but the M/TS dynamic makes up the largest.

Hopefully things can end like the porn version of Czechoslovakia and not like Yugoslavia lol.

[NYBURBS]

The bottom ne is if you like transsexuals then you're gay, it's hard to admit it but that's the truth, shemales are not women, period.

I posted that picture because it was funny (c'mon...the Hoff and Coleman). But the truth is.. WHO GIVES A FUCK

People. Quit yer bitchin and get fucking. No labels, move on.

you like women great
you like guys great
you like tgirls great
you like women with 3rd nipples.....welll that's just sick.

But geezus people. The "am I gay", "you're a faggot" whining is really getting old. If someone calls you a faggot because you were bottomed and you took offence to that, just ask yourself one question "Did I like it?" If the answer is yes, then do it again!

Look in the end we're on this rock once. Get it wherever and however you can.

Soapbox speech done.

I approve this post 8)

[hippifried]

This occurs and will continue to occur because the transsexual genre is basically 3 niches...Aaaah, there's those niches again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y6IC9ecRIo&NR=1

[tslvrnyc]

lol @ the "Faggotry Portal"

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Portal:Faggotry

This pic............ LOL

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:Girlswhohatefags.jpg

[TommyFoxtrot]

This occurs and will continue to occur because the transsexual genre is basically 3 niches...Aaaah, there's those niches again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y6IC9ecRIo&NR=1

You disagree?

[RubyTS]

this will go on 4 the end of time. everyone has their opinion and everyone strongly sticks by it. The truth is, no one else can determine someone's sexual orientation but themselves, so quit looking in dictionaries and science reports because the answer to whether you're gay or straight ONLY YOU CAN ANSWER.

[jaycanuck]

this will go on 4 the end of time. everyone has their opinion and everyone strongly sticks by it. The truth is, no one else can determine someone's sexual orientation but themselves, so quit looking in dictionaries and science reports because the answer to whether you're gay or straight ONLY YOU CAN ANSWER.

+1

[lorddigitalhighfixer]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?

giant wall of text, didn't read

except the last part where you ask people to be more tolerant on the internet. Yeah, that's going to happen

[tommymageeshemales2]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?

giant wall of text, didn't read

except the last part where you ask people to be more tolerant on the internet. Yeah, that's going to happen

Agree with the sentiment here. But sadly I read most of the text.

[eclipsemint]

I think this calls for an PSA from 2 of our favorite 80s stars.

http://www.verge.ca/hoff.jpg


But if you're NOT gay, or something in between, that's OK too!!!

[callahac]

The way I look at it is that none of us here are straight or completely gay.

Think about it. There are so many different body types, skin color, hair color that turns people on whether in the hetero world or the gay world. Some guys like skinny chicks, others like fat chicks. Some guys prefer blondes and some guys prefer brunettes. Just because the like something different they are still straight.

Now for guys that would be considered homosexual the same rules apply...they are not going to go for any swinging dick. Take me for example. I for one like twinks, smoothies, and shemales. Bears and muscle guys turn me off big time. Would never think of having sex with them.

So I think it is time for us all to accept that we are not straight guys that like a girl with something extra, but homosexual men that prefer their lovers to look like women.

If the person has a penis and you have a penis and you engage in sex, then by definition it is homosexual. Don't worry fellas it doesn't make you any less of a man.

[RubyTS]

The way I look at it is that none of us here are straight or completely gay.

Think about it. There are so many different body types, skin color, hair color that turns people on whether in the hetero world or the gay world. Some guys like skinny chicks, others like fat chicks. Some guys prefer blondes and some guys prefer brunettes. Just because the like something different they are still straight.

Now for guys that would be considered homosexual the same rules apply...they are not going to go for any swinging dick. Take me for example. I for one like twinks, smoothies, and shemales. Bears and muscle guys turn me off big time. Would never think of having sex with them.

So I think it is time for us all to accept that we are not straight guys that like a girl with something extra, but homosexual men that prefer their lovers to look like women.

If the person has a penis and you have a penis and you engage in sex, then by definition it is homosexual. Don't worry fellas it doesn't make you any less of a man.

Im on long island! :moon

[jjhill]

The way I look at it is that none of us here are straight or completely gay.

Think about it. There are so many different body types, skin color, hair color that turns people on whether in the hetero world or the gay world. Some guys like skinny chicks, others like fat chicks. Some guys prefer blondes and some guys prefer brunettes. Just because the like something different they are still straight.

Now for guys that would be considered homosexual the same rules apply...they are not going to go for any swinging dick. Take me for example. I for one like twinks, smoothies, and shemales. Bears and muscle guys turn me off big time. Would never think of having sex with them.

So I think it is time for us all to accept that we are not straight guys that like a girl with something extra, but homosexual men that prefer their lovers to look like women.

If the person has a penis and you have a penis and you engage in sex, then by definition it is homosexual. Don't worry fellas it doesn't make you any less of a man.

Im on long island! :moon

that's why you didn't hear me laugh, your not in Yonkers!!! lol

[RubyTS]

The way I look at it is that none of us here are straight or completely gay.

Think about it. There are so many different body types, skin color, hair color that turns people on whether in the hetero world or the gay world. Some guys like skinny chicks, others like fat chicks. Some guys prefer blondes and some guys prefer brunettes. Just because the like something different they are still straight.

Now for guys that would be considered homosexual the same rules apply...they are not going to go for any swinging dick. Take me for example. I for one like twinks, smoothies, and shemales. Bears and muscle guys turn me off big time. Would never think of having sex with them.

So I think it is time for us all to accept that we are not straight guys that like a girl with something extra, but homosexual men that prefer their lovers to look like women.

If the person has a penis and you have a penis and you engage in sex, then by definition it is homosexual. Don't worry fellas it doesn't make you any less of a man.

Im on long island! :moon

that's why you didn't hear me laugh, your not in Yonkers!!! lol

youll get ur turn when i get those pics lol. i'll b home on the 1st (rent day ughz!)

[jjhill]

The way I look at it is that none of us here are straight or completely gay.

Think about it. There are so many different body types, skin color, hair color that turns people on whether in the hetero world or the gay world. Some guys like skinny chicks, others like fat chicks. Some guys prefer blondes and some guys prefer brunettes. Just because the like something different they are still straight.

Now for guys that would be considered homosexual the same rules apply...they are not going to go for any swinging dick. Take me for example. I for one like twinks, smoothies, and shemales. Bears and muscle guys turn me off big time. Would never think of having sex with them.

So I think it is time for us all to accept that we are not straight guys that like a girl with something extra, but homosexual men that prefer their lovers to look like women.

If the person has a penis and you have a penis and you engage in sex, then by definition it is homosexual. Don't worry fellas it doesn't make you any less of a man.

Im on long island! :moon

that's why you didn't hear me laugh, your not in Yonkers!!! lol

youll get ur turn when i get those pics lol. i'll b home on the 1st (rent day ughz!)

lmao, aight i gotcha 8)

[gotchagood]

Personally for myself, I have never been with a man, or transgender, only gg's. I have never participated in any form of touching sucking etc. Nor am I willing to participate in anal sex, not even with gg's, but I still will spend 90% of surfing porn on tgirl sights, as a matter of fact, I might go to gg sites maybe 6 to 7 times a year. Am I afraid if someone calls me gay?? NO. But I definitely don't consider myself a homosexual male.

There are millions of women who view "lesbian"porn vids and mags, hell gg's in public will comment on another woman ass, squeeze her tits, hold hands, kiss and dance with another gg. And they are still considered straight.

[trish]

Am I afraid if someone calls me gay?? NO.
And you shouldn't be. There's no need to be afraid.

[Ben]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?

:claps

[ChicagoTbone]

There is a point to this story.

Rod & Ross were gay lovers, odd mix. One was tall and skinny, the other short and skinny. They had a house and play space on West Belmont, a few blocks west of Halsted, North side of the street. First floor was living space, 2nd floor and basement were bdsm/play spaces.

R & R hosted the Eulinspiegle (spelling) Society. It was a monthly pansexual meeting, that was for the most part exceptionally well attended by the straight bdsm community. It was a Pansexual event (for those newbians means it is open to gays, straights, transexuals). The people invited were that if you have two legs, and some functioning cell matter, you were invited.

I was as virgin as a virgin could be with regard to bdsm, the smell of leather, the handling of leather implements, a whip, crop, suction tube, the lust created in your loins by just looking at serious bdsm equipment and the sexual excitement could be smelled in each breath you took; at the meetings although people were fully clothed, you could smell the sex in the air.

Exploring with my sexuality, R & R just loved me. Again, I was a young buff Stud, well built tall and virginal for their uses. AIDS had not been a name plate at this time.

R & R after the meeting would give tours of their play space. Ok I am game. Down in the basement were lockers, jail cells, enema stations, X frame, much more. One of the devises I was intrigued by. It was a set of high top boots, bolted to a 2x6 with a eye hook on the opposite side of the boots. If your feet were laced in the boots, which were anchored to the 2x6, you couldnt stand because of the eye bolt. I had interest in this devise.

The then President of the Hell Fire club offered to "lace me in." Ok I try most anything, no really, I try most anything! I placed my feet in to the boots, the boots were laced up, halfway to my calf. Sitting on the ground he asked I raise my feet.

Now some description on this guy. I was a bit younger then, 6'2' 240LBS, 48" chest. 32" waist, fair amount of muscle. This guy was about 6'4" well built, broad chest, 52", powerful muscles, dressed in leather pants, combat boots, black sleeveless shirt with a leather vest with a bald head a a leather cap. You could physical see his bulging biceps.

So now, I am on the floor looking up at this guy, I suddenly realize that I cant get up and run, my feet are laced in the boots anchored to the 2x6, I am thinking what the fuck did I get myself into? Yes suddenly I get 2nd thoughts but think, ok there are tons of other people here. If anything happens, all I have to do is cry out....mommie come help me! I am sure tons of people would have come to watch me get face fucked.

By this time, a few other "boys" are interest in my predicament, they, yes now they, it has become sort of a party, raise my boot laced feet and hook the eye bolt into a hoist. They press a button, my feet are raised and eventually I am off the floor upside down. Ok, this is cool. The Pres keeps raising me until my eyes, upside down eyes are at their cock level.

Then el Presidento says to me, they do this to their newbies in the club. It is an initiation where by the person strapped in the boots get to service members until they are dry, in other words serious, very serious face fucking. They showed me that they could spin the victim. Oh Boy what fun!

Now really, I love sex and yes I have experimented with men, women, ts, most everything (no kids) that is legal, that could walk, and some in a wheel chair (consensual only) but had that been a group of Ts, I would have licked each and every one of them dry, until they couldn't come any more, then I would have asked for a fresh group!

Its not to say I have not experimented with men. I have, admittedly I want, enjoy Ts Cock!

I know there are a number of threads dealing with am I gay or not sucking a cock. Does it make a difference if it is a man's cock or Ts cock or cross dresser cock that sucking or getting fucked by one of them makes me gay and the others not.

I think it is all about preference. I like nylons, breast, corset on the cock that I suck or get fucked by. :wink:

[callahac]

Very interesting story ChicagoTbone. I liked it.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I'm a homophobe lol most homo-sapiens annoy me!

[SpoogeMonkey]

fuckin ell.. ive walked into a right puff convention 'ere...

go on then, let me toke on the pink pipe of ruth and Madam Palm and her 5 lovely daughters will help me knock one out

[Tgirlhottie]

I wholeheartedly agree with this post!

A spin that I have noticed with the haters playing "label games" Saying things like "you are not a real TGirl you are just a faggot in a dress".

I thought that "TGirl" was a phrase *invented* to be non confrontational and generic - yet I see people on this board berating one another over what makes for a "real" TGirl and who has the "right" to call themselves a "TGirl" and who doesn't. I also see a number of people here who claim to basically know what are appropriate sexual tastes for *everyone* in the TG world and then try to enforce their standards of sexual taste on all of us. Typically, the "appropriate" standard is someone who is "passable" or "in transition" or has had surgery - something relatively hard core.

But the world has an infinite variety of tastes and no one has the right to define what is appropriate as far as taste goes. Some people might prefer a fem man, some a man dressed, others might prefer something completely feminine except that there is a penis between the legs.

To me "Hung Angels" implies some sort of a feminine presentation but with a dick. From there people should be allowed to be creative.

[Nicole Dupre]

I wholeheartedly agree with this post!

A spin that I have noticed with the haters playing "label games" Saying things like "you are not a real TGirl you are just a faggot in a dress".

I thought that "TGirl" was a phrase *invented* to be non confrontational and generic - yet I see people on this board berating one another over what makes for a "real" TGirl and who has the "right" to call themselves a "TGirl" and who doesn't. I also see a number of people here who claim to basically know what are appropriate sexual tastes for *everyone* in the TG world and then try to enforce their standards of sexual taste on all of us. Typically, the "appropriate" standard is someone who is "passable" or "in transition" or has had surgery - something relatively hard core.

But the world has an infinite variety of tastes and no one has the right to define what is appropriate as far as taste goes. Some people might prefer a fem man, some a man dressed, others might prefer something completely feminine except that there is a penis between the legs.

To me "Hung Angels" implies some sort of a feminine presentation but with a dick. From there people should be allowed to be creative.

As long as no one is hurting anyone else, and sex is between consenting adults, I couldn't care less.

Being a TS is not necessarily a beauty contest. It has a lot more to do with making the choice and commitment to be yourself, regardless of how convenient that choice may or may not be.

Crossdressers are fine by me. I just can't relate to the ones who do it for masturbation purposes only. A man who jerks off in diapers is not a baby. I have no problem approaching a person with severe mental disabilities like a child, but I'm not baby-sitting some lonely truck driver with a bib and a raging hard-on. That is, unless he can afford my rates. ;)

Also, when a crossdresser has little or no regard for being passable (not shaving, not tucking in public, etc), they're being offensive to ALL women (including M2F TS) imo. If other people aren't offended, more power to them, but please don't tell me that I have to share that sentiment. There's a time and place for everything.

[eclipsemint]

I love you sissyrachel. And I respect your point of view. I'm sorry you've been offended by the comments some members on this forum post. I wish there was more tolerance in this world for us all. I support your stance on this.

Bitterly, though, I have learnt that this is internet. It is anarchy to the nth degree. There are all points of view about transgender people on this forum. And people entering into this area of sexuality are at all different stages in their life journey. A lot of rookies, and even some of the veterans are growing in their perspectives on all kinds of issues.

Sometimes, this forum is a safe place to "vent", or to hypothesize. It is safer to post stupid thoughts here than to try them out on real people that you know in real life. This is not real life. Its internet.

Just an hour ago I posted on a thread ranting about lip collagen surgery. Afterwards, I realised that some of my comments might be taken as hurtful since the thread OP named names and focussed on one particular recipient of lip collagen enhancement. (Sorry, Kimber.)

In some ways I regret posting that comment. But next time I may think twice before saying something just because it is my opinion. Hopefully we all learn a little and grow as people through this forum experience.

PS: thanks for the link to your stories in literotica. I like that site and will check them out.

[natina]

hypocrite's are here!

beware!

[gotchagood]

I’ve been around on this forum for quite a while but rarely see the need to post very much except for using the stories section as an opportunity to get people to read my work. Anyway, I’ve decided to break that habit to raise a point that has begun to get on my nerves a little on reading the threads on this board, namely the shocking levels of casual (and sometimes quite insistent) homophobia present among quite a lot of posters, even extending to one user recently describing how he has hurt gay people in the past while at the same time pursuing his interested in transsexuals.

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. The issue here, as I see it, is not whether these guys are gay (there’s as much difference in desires and kinks within these guys as any other, none are at least 100% straight but certainly for some a lust for transsexuals indicates more of a gay side than it does for others), but why these guys consider being gay to be such an objectionable thing that the very thought that they themselves could be gay could stand in the way of their happiness and pleasure. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?

As for me, I will happily admit to having both my straight side and my gay side, if you’re into labels I’m happy to call myself bisexual. I am a man in a long term relationship with a straight genetic girl, but I do not feel my gay thoughts or fantasies make me somehow any worse than a totally straight guy (obviously they would if I ever acted on these fantasies and cheated on my girl, but that would be equally true of a straight guy who sometimes fantasises about women other than his girlfriend). Anyone who has read my stories will know that I have a load of rather kinky fantasies but I don’t feel this should impact on how I treat real people, whether in person or online. I like to crossdress, but I do so for sexual pleasure, this does not make me the same thing as a genuine transwoman, who feels herself to be an actual woman even if born in a male body and therefore dresses and acts as a woman as her whole life not just sexually. Neither, however, do I feel this means I am less of a person or more worthy of abuse than a transwoman.

I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?
Good post. Speaking for myself, I have no problem with "crossdressers" etc. If this is what makes you feel good or puts you in the mood , then so be it. I do beleive there are alot of guys that don't understand "themselves" and get scared when they find out what turns them on. Me? I like and view crossdressers, femboys etc. just as I do all people, I take them at face value. I love the "feminine" and if that's what's on display, then I'm into it, lipstick and all. We "all" have thoughts etc. of jumping the fence. It's a normal part of life. So relax people, go with the flow and enjoy being in your own skin. Have a great day.

[jamesedwards]

The LGBT community has always been a sprawling mass of disparate identities and viewpoints and yet, still, I have always found it slightly surprising that the different branches of this so-called “community” have been so willing to adopt a confrontational stand point towards others. In particular, this applies to transgender people who are often viewed by homosexuals with suspicion and antagonism and react similarly in response. While it is important to recognise that homosexuality and transgender are not one and the same thing, that a transwoman is not at all the same as a gay man, these two minority groups, often viewed as unnatural by mainstream society, have a lot to gain from adopting a conciliatory standpoint towards each other. Notably, there is an unnecessary level of antagonism between the men who are attracted to transwomen and men who are attracted to other men.

On these boards, this translates as a world of “straight” men who lust after transsexual women denigrating anything they deem to be “gay” as if this was somehow a terrible thing, a disturbing abnormality that no normal man would want to be associated with. There are so many threads of men worried that liking transsexuals means they are gay. There is an odd notion that those guys who lust after transsexuals but consider themselves “straight” are somehow better than those whose transsexual desires are more gay (partly but not totally linked to the idea that to be a “top” is more straight than to be a gay bottom). How can the one possibly be morally superior to the other?



I guess this thread is a case in point - http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18584 (This “club kid” would make the perfect t-girl). In this thread pictures are posted of a variety of crossdressers, emo kids, feminine twinks and all sorts else, basically anyone who looks feminine but isn’t undergoing any actual gender reassignment transition. Some of these guys and girls are hot, some of them really aren’t, that’s not the point. The point is that, worryingly, both the fans and haters of this thread rapidly adopt a disturbingly homophobic position. While the haters seem keen to put down anything they don’t like as “gay” and therefore instantly wrong, the fans are no better, worried and paranoid that their desire for femme bois and crossdressed sissies is somehow gay and wrong. Guess what, it is gay! But that can’t make it any more “wrong” than anything else.

I guess that all I’m asking is that people adopt a more tolerant stance towards other people’s desires and fetishes. A straight man is no better than a gay man, a transwoman no worse than one. If you’re not into something, there’s no reason aggressively to strike out at those who are. Everybody is different, what harm can there be in saying love and let love?

Good post best I seen in a long time. I remember two guys on here ranting about it's gay if you suck and get fucked by a TGirl, and I debated with them. They were idiots! There are thousands of Tgirls that love to fuck ass just as well as get fucked and want to get sucked just as well as suck, so are we to deny them of their sexual right? Because those idiots are only thinking of themselves and not seeing the bigger picture that there are different strokes for different folks. I am straight up a nasty motha fucka and I am not ashamed, if a sexy Tgirl and I are fucking trust me I will give the dick as well as take it. If I want to just fuck I could just do a woman and not fuck with a TGirl at all. There are some TGirls that just wanna be on the bottom and not dish any cock out, hey that's on them, but don't get angry at me because I like what I like. A Tgirl that only bottoms shouldn't make it seem like she is right and a Tgirl that tops and bottoms is wrong, fuck outta here with that non sense. REAL TALK! Do what you do and respect others, I SAID RESPECT others.

This word tolerance should be thrown in the got dam trash. The word when dealing with PEOPLE is not in it's proper contence. Saying "YOU SHOULD TOLERATE OTHERS" is like saying to me "I REALLY HATE THEIR ASSES BUT I AM JUST GOING TO PUT UP WITH THEIR SHIT". No that's not a word to use, and I know the words of art and how society subliminally shove words to us and we use them without thinking. Instead of tolerating someone's thing and how they do it or race or faith SAY RESPECT IT!

See I respect if a Tgirl is a bottom only she just aint the one for me there's no fun in just that, but I respect her decision, I just don't like these big mouth motha fuckas running around here calling people gay because they top and bottom with a TGirl yes these same motha fuckas is fucking a Tgirl with A COCK! I mean what fuck are they talking about? These same motha fuckas are fucking bottom Tgirls with cocks and I know the cock has to slap against their stomach or some shit while their fucking. What they avoid the whole cock? I mean wtf ! I don't like boring fucking I like that wild gutta knock'em down sex! I love those TGirls that love to pound some ass and love fucking nasty just like me, we 69 suck each others cocks and enjoy the shit that's going down. I enjoy watching the beast and passion come out a TGirl as she turns into another person and fucks me in the ass and spanks my ass and make me take her cock. For those that don't agree FUCK YOU!

[jamesedwards]

Let it be told I am not gay, or bisexual I am a TRI-SEXUAL, I am giong to try some nasty fucking and if you excite me we going to get into some wild as fucking plain and simple!

[jamesedwards]

Transwomen are just women who just happened to be born in the wrong body. I think a lot of people make the misconception that if a guy likes a TS and her cock then he must be gay, because he likes cock. Could it be that he is just attractive to the girl and cock was just something extra. It's like being at McDonalds and ordering a Big Mac and small fries, but when the order comes the cashier gives you a Big Mac and large fries. It was just something extra that came along with it. I bet a lot transwomen don't see themselves as part of the gay community, so why does that make the guys who like them to be gay?
.

Hell yeah now you are speaking the truth. There are TGirls that are women and just have the dick. I seen the most sexiest black Hermaphrodite she has 11 inches of dick and a pussy at the same time and she can cum from both, I would marry that bitch if I could find her! When I seen her in the video that I have I almost died in lust. She is a woman she has no man features and she is all natural. she is so fucking fine men that claim they wouldn't that fine bitch would have them on their knees taking her dick! Mark my words tha's how fine she is. When you look into it and understand the body and how it can go off course sometimes you understand what's a woman and what's not. You hit that shit right on the head. There are beautiful Tgirl women that are natural they just have a dick those the ones I love and if she love to bottom and top send her ass to me, while motha fuckas is talking about I am others are gay we will be fucking IN YOUR PUNK ASS NAME! Great post!

[jamesedwards]

If Ima be with a Tgirl I am going to love all of her and show her that I love all of her by acting on it.

[jamesedwards]

I posted that picture because it was funny (c'mon...the Hoff and Coleman). But the truth is.. WHO GIVES A FUCK

People. Quit yer bitchin and get fucking. No labels, move on.

you like women great
you like guys great
you like tgirls great
you like women with 3rd nipples.....welll that's just sick.

But geezus people. The "am I gay", "you're a faggot" whining is really getting old. If someone calls you a faggot because you were bottomed and you took offence to that, just ask yourself one question "Did I like it?" If the answer is yes, then do it again!

Look in the end we're on this rock once. Get it wherever and however you can.

Soapbox speech done.

:Bowdown: Fucking great post. Who the fuck is Tracy and why is Tracy here if it deems Fucking TGirls is gay? LOL You see it makes no dam sense if you think all this shit is gay what the fuck are you doing here in the first place? LOL

TO TRACY -----> :fu:

[Quiet Reflections]

1) my grammar sucks but come on "Most Sexiest" ?
2) 11 inches and a pussy, both functional. BULLSHIT

[natina]

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

[jamesedwards]

1) my grammar sucks but come on "Most Sexiest" ?
2) 11 inches and a pussy, both functional. BULLSHIT

Dude what the fuck are you a school teacher? Is this all you have to offer to the dam convo? Motha fucka move on, beat it, shoot, bug off, get the cane, stage left, bounce, fuck outta here, skate, get your ass on, get to steppin, push a parked car, etc, I mean dammmmm was that good enough grammer for your ass? :fu:

[jamesedwards]

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

That's real talk, word up good point.

[dderek123]

http://www.nastyhobbit.org/data/media/13/grammartime.gif

[jamesedwards]

1) my grammar sucks but come on "Most Sexiest" ?
2) 11 inches and a pussy, both functional. BULLSHIT

I got the video motha fucka, wanna see it? I see that you're bullshit!

[Quiet Reflections]

Dude what the fuck are you a school teacher? Is this all you have to offer to the dam convo? Motha fucka move on, beat it, shoot, bug off, get the cane, stage left, bounce, fuck outta here, skate, get your ass on, get to steppin, push a parked car, etc, I mean dammmmm was that good enough grammer for your ass? :fu:
you meant damn right? I think your M key is stuck.

[Quiet Reflections]

I got the video motha fucka, wanna see it? I see that you're bullshit!
sure post it

[jamesedwards]

you meant damn right? I think your M key is stuck.

No I said what I said when I said it, dick brain, and I didn't hit the wrong key :fu:

[amberskyi]

lmaooooooooo.this thread is a #FAIL

[Quiet Reflections]

No I said what I said when I said it, dick brain, and I didn't hit the wrong key :fu:
So angry. that's bad for your heart

[jamesedwards]

sure post it

I ain't showing you SHIT! fuck off! Quietly Reflect on some balls! :fu:

[jamesedwards]

So angry. that's bad for your heart

All I am doing is typing ass wipe not hard on the heart at all. You worried about some dam grammer and not adding to the post, get the fuck on Ricky Martin has a concert.

[Quiet Reflections]

I ain't showing you SHIT! fuck off! Quietly Reflect on some balls! :fu:
because it didn't happen or because you "lost" it? I didn't mean to call you bluff but you made that to easy.

[jamesedwards]

I hardly think this thread failed there were some truth told here and then some act like assholes.

[natina]

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES



That's real talk, word up good point.

[Quiet Reflections]

All I am doing is typing ass wipe not hard on the heart at all. You worried about some dam grammer and not adding to the post, get the fuck on Ricky Martin has a concert.
How do you know? Do you follow him on twitter or do you get a fan club updates?

[natina]

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER:iagree::iagree::iagree:


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

some TS think they are better then a fem boi or a crossdresser or even a non passable TS

they say they are just men in dresses but most people say you are just men who take hormones and or got silicone injections and or surgery and or wears makeup and or wears dresses.

THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH A TRANSSEXUAL FROM A CROSSDRESSER OR A TRANSGENDER


TO MOST YOU ARE STILL A MAN AND TO SOME ONLY THE MOST PRETTY AND FEMINE TS OR WOMEN THE REST OR MEN IN DRESSES

[jamesedwards]

because it didn't happen or because you "lost" it? I didn't mean to call you bluff but you made that to easy.

I tell you what if I show it, and you see she is fully functional in both areas will you leave HA forever? Let's see who the bluffer is put your money where your mouth is.

[Quiet Reflections]

I tell you what if I show it, and you see she is fully functional in both areas will you leave HA forever? Let's see who the bluffer is put your money where your mouth is. nope, I have fun here. you are the one that made the claim. put up or shut up

[jamesedwards]

nope, I have fun here. you are the one that made the claim. put up or shut up

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh you have fun here? LOL LMAO motha fucka you know I will show you out. I ain't putting up shit unless I can get something out of it and that's yo ass gone! So you put up or shut the fuck up motha fucka, because if you were really real yo ass would of went for the offer. So get the fuck outta here, you troll!

[jamesedwards]

DAm NaTina is making a message felt like a mofo. lol Sound like NaTina directing that shit to someone here recent lol I think I got the notion who that may be lol lmao ctfu

[Quiet Reflections]

If it didn't happen it didn't happen there is no shame in that. you can try to put this back on me but the fact remains you made the claim and the offer first, and it wasn't a bet.

[jamesedwards]

If it didn't happen it didn't happen there is no shame in that. you can try to put this back on me but the fact remains you made the claim and the offer first, and it wasn't a bet.

awwwwwwwwh I tried to put it back on you huh? LOL Yeah I made a claim so I made you a fucking offer. Either I show it prove your dumb ass wrong once you see it then you have to leave. This thread is not about grammer, I know how to write, I was being sexually sarcastic yo ass just got caught up in grammar because your some type of Schizo dealing with grammer if you see wrong grammer your fucking head explosed lol NEWS FLASH BITCH EITHER YOU TAKE THE OFFER OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! I aint to be fucked with. I SAID I AIN'T SEE! :fu:

[jamesedwards]

You sound like a child "IT WASN'T A BET" shut the fuck up, if I saw you on the streets I would kick your fucking ass, you dumb ass hook footz bitch!

[amberskyi]

....0_0

[Nivek]

Great post, and awesome points. I will be more conscience of my posts and what I add on this board from now on as well. IMO if you are happy pursuing what you perceive to be sexually gratifying consentual sex, or images, literature, fantasies, and as long As CHILDREN and ANIMALS are NOT involved, who gives a flying fuck what anyone else thinks? No one can scare me that my fantasies may be straight or not, I'm happy slightly off anyway.

[Quiet Reflections]

awwwwwwwwh I tried to put it back on you huh? LOL Yeah I made a claim so I made you a fucking offer. Either I show it prove your dumb ass wrong once you see it then you have to leave. This thread is not about grammer, I know how to write, I was being sexually sarcastic yo ass just got caught up in grammar because your some type of Schizo dealing with grammer if you see wrong grammer your fucking head explosed lol NEWS FLASH BITCH EITHER YOU TAKE THE OFFER OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! I aint to be fucked with. I SAID I AIN'T SEE! :fu:
You Ain't? the internet is serious business I guess. I'm fucking with you now and nothing is happening.

[Quiet Reflections]

You sound like a child "IT WASN'T A BET" shut the fuck up, if I saw you on the streets I would kick your fucking ass, you dumb ass hook footz bitch!
that sounds really scary

[jamesedwards]

You Ain't? the internet is serious business I guess. I'm fucking with you now and nothing is happening.

Don't try to play the shit off motha fucka, just shutup. If you're not willing to leave because I can prove it, then just shut up it's getting tired. Plus you don't know what the fuck your talking about. When it comes to Hermaphrodites, you must think they are all the same don't you? Get a life, LOSSSSSSER! You can't be fucking with me cause I am laughing at your bitch ass. lol lmao

[Quiet Reflections]

After saying you would kick my ass if you saw me and telling me not to fuck with you is that really the best you came up with? I can honestly say I know little about hermaphrodites but I will call bullshit when I see it and a sexy hermaphrodite with an 11 in penis, that can cum from both? I say bullshit.

[jamesedwards]

After saying you would kick my ass if you saw me and telling me not to fuck with you is that really the best you came up with? I can honestly say I know little about hermaphrodites but I will call bullshit when I see it and a sexy hermaphrodite with an 11 in penis, that can cum from both? I say bullshit.

LOL Yeah I said it what?

But see if you REALLY thought what I was saying was bullshit dude, take my offer! IF I SHOW THE VIDEO AND SHE HAS A 11 INCH COCK AND PUSSY AND GET FEELING FROM BOTH THEN YOU GOTTA LEAVE!!! Don't tell me that bullshit you like it here lol We all do but that's the icing on the cake for me, if you tell me it's bullshit then go with your gusto! Don't be a bitch follow through because I can!

Point made, "YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT A HERMAPHRODITE" see so what the fuck are you talking about? You said it not me. Obvisously I know more than you do. see! LOL how the fuck you going to call it bullshit and you don't know shit about them? Do you know how dumb you sound? LOL lmao lol CTFU LOL

[jamesedwards]

Great post, and awesome points. I will be more conscience of my posts and what I add on this board from now on as well. IMO if you are happy pursuing what you perceive to be sexually gratifying consentual sex, or images, literature, fantasies, and as long As CHILDREN and ANIMALS are NOT involved, who gives a flying fuck what anyone else thinks? No one can scare me that my fantasies may be straight or not, I'm happy slightly off anyway.

True that I concur 100% great post.

[Quiet Reflections]

LOL Yeah I said it what?

But see if you REALLY thought what I was saying was bullshit dude, take my offer! IF I SHOW THE VIDEO AND SHE HAS A 11 INCH COCK AND PUSSY AND GET FEELING FROM BOTH THEN YOU GOTTA LEAVE!!! Don't tell me that bullshit you like it here lol We all do but that's the icing on the cake for me, if you tell me it's bullshit then go with your gusto! Don't be a bitch follow through because I can!

Point made, "YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT A HERMAPHRODITE" see so what the fuck are you talking about? You said it not me. Obvisously I know more than you do. see! LOL how the fuck you going to call it bullshit and you don't know shit about them? Do you know how dumb you sound? LOL lmao lol CTFU LOL
Just say it didn't happen dude your reaching and its sad but Its nice that your sticking to your guns even when your story is so clearly bullshit. The only obvious thing here is that you offered to show it with no intention of doing so.

[Deimos]

life would be easier for everyone if we just accepted the truth.... we are all gay lol.

[Prospero]

Even simpler than that. We are all humans with a wide range of sexualities.

[jamesedwards]

After saying you would kick my ass if you saw me and telling me not to fuck with you is that really the best you came up with? I can honestly say I know little about hermaphrodites but I will call bullshit when I see it and a sexy hermaphrodite with an 11 in penis, that can cum from both? I say bullshit.

I'll give you a sample and dare you to leap motha fucka.


http://img1.imagehousing.com/65/d39f187ca8e98b36494b9ed795959879.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

http://img1.imagehousing.com/52/09148162f2d0a9d15f33a58625bb0b7b.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

[jamesedwards]

life would be easier for everyone if we just accepted the truth.... we are all gay lol.

Well I am gay cause I am happier than a motha fucka with the Tgirl I have lol hahahah But can I be gay and Tri-sexual at the same time? LOLHahahahah

[jamesedwards]

Even simpler than that. We are all humans with a wide range of sexualities.

:Bowdown:True dat I respect that.

[Quiet Reflections]

Even simpler than that. We are all humans with a wide range of sexualities.
sexuality always seemed pretty fluid to me. People stuck on labels always seem like they are hiding from something.

[jamesedwards]

sexuality .

http://img1.imagehousing.com/67/4b614b602141c77c78392c2ac1897bf1.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

MOTHA FUCKA!

[Quiet Reflections]

I'll give you a sample and dare you to leap motha fucka.


http://img1.imagehousing.com/65/d39f187ca8e98b36494b9ed795959879.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

http://img1.imagehousing.com/52/09148162f2d0a9d15f33a58625bb0b7b.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)
I can write 11 inches on a picture too. that's not 11 inches and something tell me she isn't sexy. now go find another clip on the internet and try again. see if you can get one from this decade.

[Deimos]

Even simpler than that. We are all humans with a wide range of sexualities.

I concur

[jamesedwards]

http://img1.imagehousing.com/29/1671bd3cc2ea9eed372cbcd71d10d04c.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

FINGERING HER PUSSY

[Quiet Reflections]

http://img1.imagehousing.com/29/1671bd3cc2ea9eed372cbcd71d10d04c.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

FINGERING HER PUSSY
everyone knows they exist. now fill the rest of the bill

[dderek123]

http://artfiles.art.com/5/p/LRG/8/889/WFMJ000Z/queer-as-folk--rage.jpg

[jamesedwards]

I can write 11 inches on a picture too. that's not 11 inches and something tell me she isn't sexy. now go find another clip on the internet and try again. see if you can get one from this decade.

Get the fuck outta here That's 11 inches and you're just saying that, so if you don't believe take my offer and the people here will judge when they see she gets sensation from her pussy and dick you gotta leave, bet? Yeah it's old but this one is the proof don't act dumb now. She aint sexy? lol she is not an ugly woman. I know cause I got the film you just wanna see. lol

http://img1.imagehousing.com/17/f71a3130c015b2b995ba3795bed801e8.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

[Quiet Reflections]

you were really gonna try to pass this shit off like its real that's Jeannie pepper and she doesn't have a dick.


White girl suck, licks and fucks black hermaphrodite - xHamster.com (http://www.xhamster.com/movies/184834/white_girl_suck_licks_and_fucks_black_hermaphrodit e.html)

[jamesedwards]

everyone knows they exist. now fill the rest of the bill

Duh asshole we know they exist that's not the scheme of this, put the fuck up or shut up! If I show the flim here and you see and everyone else see she has an 11 inch cock and she can cum from her cock and get sensations from both her pussy and cock you have to leave. Stop beating the BUSH motha fucka and put up.

[Quiet Reflections]

you were really gonna try to pass this shit off like its real that's Jeannie pepper and she doesn't have a dick.


White girl suck, licks and fucks black hermaphrodite - xHamster.com (http://www.xhamster.com/movies/184834/white_girl_suck_licks_and_fucks_black_hermaphrodit e.html)????

[jamesedwards]

you were really gonna try to pass this shit off like its real that's Jeannie pepper and she doesn't have a dick.


White girl suck, licks and fucks black hermaphrodite - xHamster.com (http://www.xhamster.com/movies/184834/white_girl_suck_licks_and_fucks_black_hermaphrodit e.html)

You dumb fuck, THE TITLE IS HERMAPHRODITE lol can't you read? look at the fucking video dumb ass! and there are other videos there too.

[jamesedwards]

She aint ugly like the fuck you said is she huh? LOL hahahahah she has a dick and a pussy dick head

[jamesedwards]

Dumb ass lol lol hahahah I'm finished my point, now everyone can see she has a dick and there are other Hermies there! dick wipe

[Quiet Reflections]

You dumb fuck, THE TITLE IS HERMAPHRODITE lol can't you read? look at the fucking video dumb ass! and there are other videos there too.
That is Jeannie Pepper with a fake dick on from an old ass movie. I guess you believe all porn stars are teens too. Jesus and to think for a second I thought you might have had something, there are very few real hermaphrodites in porn. I think Ron Jeremy had a scene with one.

[jamesedwards]

More

http://xhamster.com/movies/468706/freaks_of_nature_5_hermaphrodite.html

http://xhamster.com/movies/228362/bisex_with_a_hermaphrodite.html

[amberskyi]

That is Jeannie Pepper with a fake dick on from an old ass movie. I guess you believe all porn stars are teens too. Jesus and to think for a second I thought you might have had something, there are very few real hermaphrodites in porn. I think Ron Jeremy had a scene with one.

lol.that video kinda freaked me out.i saw this one film with a chick who had a like 4 inch or so clit.that totally freaked me out too and i like girls lol.

[jamesedwards]

That is Jeannie Pepper with a fake dick on from an old ass movie. I guess you believe all porn stars are teens too. Jesus and to think for a second I thought you might have had something, there are very few real hermaphrodites in porn. I think Ron Jeremy had a scene with one.

how the fuck can she hold a dick that huge with no strapons? Trust me my girl has a few strapons, now how the fuck she going to have a real dick and then cum from it, I seen fake dicks with cum someone has one as their avatar and shooting massive nut. no one shoots that much nut, but hers was the amount it's suppose to be. She didn'thave no strapons or nothing ! so you tell me how she did that? Crazy glue? LOL ahahahahah lol

[jamesedwards]

lol.that video kinda freaked me out.i saw this one film with a chick who had a like 4 inch or so clit.that totally freaked me out too and i like girls lol.

OH my gawd lol hahahah I got a pic of a chick with a big clit almost the size of my thumb, I would suck that shit lol hahahah freaked you out huh? LOL hahahah that was a mini dick not a clit lol hahah

http://img1.imagehousing.com/72/0107becbd810aedadb02f90d4ac22acc.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

[jamesedwards]

http://img1.imagehousing.com/45/eb492f5096c04c157904042f5af725b7.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

BIG DAM CLIT LOL

[Quiet Reflections]

More

http://xhamster.com/movies/468706/freaks_of_nature_5_hermaphrodite.html

http://xhamster.com/movies/228362/bisex_with_a_hermaphrodite.html
There is no way your telling me you think those are real. If you knew anything about human anatomy or even hermaphrodites you would know that dicks dont grow out of the dead center of the pubic region.

[jamesedwards]

So there are those women that have big clits that look like mini dicks then there are those that look like women but have dick and balls, Tgirls and like the one in my avatar who is hot are sexy as fuck they are women to me just society is on some bullshit. you can see it can go from a large clit to a dick gradually.

[amberskyi]

how the fuck can she hold a dick that huge with no strapons? Trust me my girl has a few strapons, now how the fuck she going to have a real dick and then cum from it, I seen fake dicks with cum someone has one as their avatar and shooting massive nut. no one shoots that much nut, but hers was the amount it's suppose to be. She didn'thave no strapons or nothing ! so you tell me how she did that? Crazy glue? LOL ahahahahah lol

its easy to fake cum scenes (one of my girl friends did.it looked very realistic) and its also easy to add fake appendages (just go to any theater prop,costume,and make up shop).

[jamesedwards]

There is no way your telling me you think those are real. If you knew anything about human anatomy or even hermaphrodites you would know that dicks dont grow out of the dead center of the pubic region.

NO YOU'RE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG. LET THE SHIT GO!!! :wiggle:

[amberskyi]

http://img1.imagehousing.com/45/eb492f5096c04c157904042f5af725b7.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

BIG DAM CLIT LOL

those arent as scary as the one i saw..still kinda not my thing tho lol

[Quiet Reflections]

NO YOU'RE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG. LET THE SHIT GO!!! :wiggle:
I know! that's all you had to say.

[jamesedwards]

http://img1.imagehousing.com/31/10938d8cf0c4e6fa6221ad8cf800efd5.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

[jamesedwards]

those arent as scary as the one i saw..still kinda not my thing tho lol

:hide-1:
oh SHIT I didn't know you like females too, oh dammmmm so can I ask a question? do you penetrate them or you just lick them because I know you like to get bottomed and not topped.

[amberskyi]

:hide-1:
oh SHIT I didn't know you like females too, oh dammmmm so can I ask a question? do you penetrate them or you just lick them because I know you like to get bottomed and not topped.

lol.best head ive ever gotten was from a female.so far ive only eaten pussy but i would let a chick fuck me with a strap on if it ever got that far.

[jamesedwards]

http://hermaphroditee.com/x/hermaphrodite_09.htm

[jamesedwards]

lol.best head ive ever gotten was from a female.so far ive only eaten pussy but i would let a chick fuck me with a strap on if it ever got that far.

Oh ok, that's cool. My girl uses a strapon on me and she is a wild crazy beastly bitch lol hahahah she owns the bedroom I am her bitch lol and when we do fuck a TGirl oh my goodness her ass just shows off and have to out do me lol .

So have you or are you planning to have a 3sum, guy, and girl and yourself? I like this communication I can get some insight on what Tgirls like. thanks

[jamesedwards]

Site shows Hermies with dicks outside of the pussy. smh

http://hermaphrodites.us/main.html

http://img1.imagehousing.com/9/159d91fd84e5c2588dea1c3c7680d3d8.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

HERMAPHRODITE VICTORIA

[amberskyi]

Oh ok, that's cool. My girl uses a strapon on me and she is a wild crazy beastly bitch lol hahahah she owns the bedroom I am her bitch lol and when we do fuck a TGirl oh my goodness her ass just shows off and have to out do me lol .

So have you or are you planning to have a 3sum, guy, and girl and yourself? I like this communication I can get some insight on what Tgirls like. thanks

ive done threesomes in the past but im not very thrilled about them.ive done three and two of them were horrible.

[dderek123]

http://213.174.142.31/thumbs/2011-04/2f/abff90e2f78f0f6524f5ad03b99d8a2dd.wmv-160x120-5.jpg

[dderek123]

http://213.174.142.212/thumbs/2011-03/b2/a5b6163b29195fca3ed48bd8807da4eb0.flv-160x120-4.jpg

[jamesedwards]

http://213.174.142.31/thumbs/2011-04/2f/abff90e2f78f0f6524f5ad03b99d8a2dd.wmv-160x120-5.jpg

Now that's a fake cock and she has a dress on and it's strapped to her, I seen plenty of those and they have a bulb that squirts out cum. That chick in that video had no straps and no bulb . dude told me Hermies dicks don't grow outside their pussy that's a dam lie. and he talked about knowing the anatomy? I hope he don't think all Hermies bodies are the same.

[jamesedwards]

ive done threesomes in the past but im not very thrilled about them.ive done three and two of them were horrible.

awhhhhhhhhhhh Sorry you had to go through that. You are real cool to talk to I bet it's just cool to talk to you and convo. All my threesums and foursums have been off the dam chain. it's like they just keep getting better. one way I ensure they are hot because I only fuck with the freakiest people. I can't fuck with prudes lol We put in some heavy fucking lol one threesum was so good I went back for seconds and they were shocked like WTF MOTHA FUCKA YOU READY TO GO ANOTHER ROUND? " lol hahaha

[dderek123]

Derrr .. u think? Herp derp.

[Quiet Reflections]

Now that's a fake cock and she has a dress on and it's strapped to her, I seen plenty of those and they have a bulb that squirts out cum. That chick in that video had no straps and no bulb . dude told me Hermies dicks don't grow outside their pussy that's a dam lie. and he talked about knowing the anatomy? I hope he don't think all Hermies bodies are the same.
Where did I say that? Im pretty sure I said they don't grow out of the middle or the pubic region(the dead center of the pubic hair).

[Quiet Reflections]

Now that's a fake cock and she has a dress on and it's strapped to her, I seen plenty of those and they have a bulb that squirts out cum. That chick in that video had no straps and no bulb . dude told me Hermies dicks don't grow outside their pussy that's a dam lie. and he talked about knowing the anatomy? I hope he don't think all Hermies bodies are the same.
and don't try to compare this to the original conversation. you were trying to tell me Jeannie Pepper had a dick and you were wrong. The dick was fake

[jamesedwards]

and don't try to compare this to the original conversation. you were trying to tell me Jeannie Pepper had a dick and you were wrong. The dick was fake
A dick can grow right there where the pubes are so you're wrong.
http://img1.imagehousing.com/9/159d91fd84e5c2588dea1c3c7680d3d8.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

YOu didn't prove anything about that video you said it was fake anyone can say it. YOu have to show me it was fake.

[jamesedwards]

Derrr .. u think? Herp derp.

No I know, my girl has one, HELLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOO!

[Quiet Reflections]

A dick can grow right there where the pubes are so you're wrong.

YOu didn't prove anything about that video you said it was fake anyone can say it. YOu have to show me it was fake.
at the top of the pussy like in you picture, sure but never dead in the center of the pubes. I doesn't happen. Have you ever even heard of Jeannie Pepper? are you even over 21? how can you believe dicks can just sprout from anywhere.

[jamesedwards]

at the top of the pussy like in you picture, sure but never dead in the center of the pubes. I doesn't happen. Have you ever even heard of Jeannie Pepper? are you even over 21? how can you believe dicks can just sprout from anywhere.

Dude I don't spend my life trying to know everyone in porn. Who the hell said I believed dicks can just grow anywhere? It's still outside the pussy right? That's my poinT. Hell my dick don't even sit directly in the middle of my pubes wtf man? Yo leave the shit alone I am tired of going back and forth the shit is a broken record and no I am 33 years old.

[Quiet Reflections]

Dude I don't spend my life trying to know everyone in porn. Who the hell said I believed dicks can just grow anywhere? It's still outside the pussy right? That's my poinT. Hell my dick don't even sit directly in the middle of my pubes wtf man? Yo leave the shit alone I am tired of going back and forth the shit is a broken record and no I am 33 years old.
my point exactly. nobody's(Nobody's) dick comes right out of the middle of their pubes like in the video and shes a GG. If you going to try to say what I said just quote it so you don't get that wrong too. I never said anything about the inside or outside of a pussy, just read the posts(that is easy to prove). And if you don't want to go back and forth don't mention me in your posts.

[amberskyi]

awhhhhhhhhhhh Sorry you had to go through that. You are real cool to talk to I bet it's just cool to talk to you and convo. All my threesums and foursums have been off the dam chain. it's like they just keep getting better. one way I ensure they are hot because I only fuck with the freakiest people. I can't fuck with prudes lol We put in some heavy fucking lol one threesum was so good I went back for seconds and they were shocked like WTF MOTHA FUCKA YOU READY TO GO ANOTHER ROUND? " lol hahaha

the guys ended being more into me than their partner and that created drama as you can imagine.i usually just avoid threesomes all together now.

[Birgitta]

Gynandromorph (TS) and gynandromorphiliacs (T-lovers)? I believe that is the official term.

Just leave the gay term unless you bottom, that is sooo gay :D

[jamesedwards]

my point exactly. nobody's(Nobody's) dick comes right out of the middle of their pubes like in the video and shes a GG. If you going to try to say what I said just quote it so you don't get that wrong too. I never said anything about the inside or outside of a pussy, just read the posts(that is easy to prove). And if you don't want to go back and forth don't mention me in your posts.

That was you who said her dick was in the middle of her pubes not me and the video didn't show it in the dam middle it sat just where the woman I just posted sat. It's funny that she would put a condem on a fake dick lol that is fucking hilarious. stay the fuck outta my post then.

[Quiet Reflections]

That was you who said her dick was in the middle of her pubes not me and the video didn't show it in the dam middle it sat just where the woman I just posted sat. It's funny that she would put a condem on a fake dick lol that is fucking hilarious. stay the fuck outta my post then.
It was fake. so fake in fact that you went to Google and found anything other than the original video to post. Jeannie pepper wore a fake dick in a movie from the BI and Beyond series

[jamesedwards]

It was fake. so fake in fact that you went to Google and found anything other than the original video to post. Jeannie pepper wore a fake dick in a movie from the BI and Beyond series

Funny thing you should of challenge me then. I have that movie I was giving you screen shots I didn't have to go online dude wtf are you talking about. WEll I gotta go make this papah you keep your being a porn collector. Get a life. :fu:

[jamesedwards]

the guys ended being more into me than their partner and that created drama as you can imagine.i usually just avoid threesomes all together now.

Oh snap, ok well I know you know how to have fun your way do your thang. Peace out.

[Quiet Reflections]

Funny thing you should of challenge me then. I have that movie I was giving you screen shots I didn't have to go online dude wtf are you talking about. WEll I gotta go make this papah you keep your being a porn collector. Get a life. :fu: yeah i had to go find it because I don't have and hermaphrodite porn. And If you own it how did you not know it was her and fake