Genocide................................(Hurricane Related)

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I'm just as guilty as anyone else for passing the blame, so be it; people need to vent and if they can relieve some stress here I say type it out.

When 9/11 happened Rudy Giuliani was walking in the streets with his people giving instructions on what to do. As much as I didn't like him as a mayor prior to that I respected him as a man after 9/11. In the end Giuliani had what little support he could muster doing everything to help anyone who needed it. You can't say that about President Bush and his reaction to N.O. after Katrina. This is Genocide...............

You have a group of people of a specific race/wealth class in an environment that's not financially well off that has seen a natural disaster completely obliterate their community. No one rushed in to save them, instead assistance was delayed for a "few"days. Many people were sent to the dome as a place for shelter but in the past few days we've heard stories of people dying within it, women raped, children starving, and the doors are locked so they can't just walk out. They are letting media in to show the place to the world but they aren't letting the people out.

You still have boats & warships in the Middle East that could be sailing back to the states to lend support, makes no sense. It's inexcusable at this point, what we thought were a few hundred dead has turned out to be a few thousand. Lack of food, water, and medical supplies makes that a form of genocide.

a few links for anyone that is reading this and is interested:

Geraldo goes off
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.wmv

The infamous Kanye West feed: his comments were edited on the West Coast btw
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Kayne-West-Bush-Black-People.wmv

Jack Cafferty expresses himself:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/The-Situation-%20Room-Cafferty-Bush-phot-op.wmv

and last but not least Ted Koeppel:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Nightline-Fema.mov

[GroobySteven]

I think "Genocide By Apathy" would be a better term.
Whatever you want to name it - it's
BULLSHIT.

The buck stops with the President - he had the power to make the calls and supercede anyone at any level under him. Heads should roll, starting with his and going all the way down.
seanchai

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

agreed, it's truly sad that people are dying day by day, and locking the doors to the dome should be considered criminal..........................


here's more links:

http://www.operationflashlight.com/wp-content/waveland94.mpg

this is Barbara Bush saying some true shit, but still as the 1st lady it's the last
thing that should have come out of her mouth:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bb.mp3

and Imus
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Imus-Russert-Katrina.wmv

[Reddman]

I think "Genocide By Apathy" would be a better term.
Whatever you want to name it - it's
BULLSHIT.

The buck stops with the President - he had the power to make the calls and supercede anyone at any level under him. Heads should roll, starting with his and going all the way down.
seanchai

I agree but it will never happen. If anything it's gotta start with the head of FEMA Michael "Brownie you're doing a great job down here" Brown. Should be the posterboy for "Cronyism Kills". For godsake the fucking guy's resume highlight is that he ran a breeding farm for Arabian horses and he was fired from that for mismangement. A friggin horse breeder with no real world experience,oh wait the former director was his college roomie that's gotta count toward something.

[d]

THIS WAS SENT TO ME BY A FRIEND ,....I DID NOT WRITE IT BUT I AGREE


>Well, I would like to answer this rhetorical question. New Orleans was
>originally founded by American Indians. When D'Iberville sailed up the
>Mississippi he established his operations at Baton Rouge. Two years later
>he heard that there was some high ground down river and went to
>investigate. He found a few ridges that Indians occupied and established a
>fort there. It grew into the third largest port in the US. (Dumb Frenchmen
>indeed.) Those same ridges did not flood this hurricane nor in the
>three previous floods I witnessed. New Orleans is not built below sea
>level, but some of it is in the newest areas where they filled in marshes
>for housing. What outsiders don't understand is that Lake Poncatrain fills
>up with the storm surge and becomes about six to eight feet above sea
>level. This is what floods the lake front and newer areas of the city
>during a hurricane. It usually takes about two weeks to return to normal
>sea level and drain. What has made it bad this time is two fold. First
they
>built a sea wall, not a levee, to protect the city from the lake (not the
>river) during hurricanes. Unfortunately somebody tied a barge to the
>seawall ahead of the storm and it pounded the sea wall down and allowed
the
>water into the city. The second problem is the same as the first - they
>built a seawall around the city so the water cannot flow back out into the
>lake. The height of the lake was greater than ever but the sea wall was
>high enough to keep the city dry, it just broke because of stupidity in
>allowing boats and barges to moor to the structure.
>
>The comments about the local government is noteworthy. The city is mostly
>black and white flight has taken place. The police chief, mayor and all
>major offices are held by blacks. Our governor is a white grandmother from
>New Orleans with no top management experience. The congressman from this
>district is black and under FBI investigation for graft. The senator from
>this area is a young white girl with no job experience at all, but her dad
>was a local power broker. Did I mention that all of these folks are
>democrats. There has been no ability to make a decision except for how to
>keep in office for many, many years. As soon as the FBI comes and puts one
>of them in jail, there as another crook to take his place. We get the kind
>of government we pay for. This is an unprecedented emergency and there was
>no leadership at all until Bush stepped in and sent the army into the
city.
>Remember it is up to locals to request federal help as they cannot just
>rush in uninvited.
>
>The responsible black community and remaining white community all
evacuated
>as ordered. Many blacks remained in order to loot the city as they did
>during past emergencies. The mayor of New Orleans claimed as much on
>camera. By staying behind they have also made the rest of the nation
>responsible for them. Those who left are getting no help for food and
>housing - only those who stayed back and made trouble. Who was shooting at
>the rescue workers since last Wednesday? Who stole the Wildlife and
>Fisheries rescue boats on Tuesday night so they could have mobility to
loot
>and burn the city. Most of the early rescue efforts had to be stopped
>because of the gunfire from the ghetto gangs. The first guardsmen into the
>city came without guns because they were here to rescue not defend. They
>were run out of town by hoodlums. At least three days were lost helping
>people because of the black gunmen shooting at everything that moved. The
>attacked the police station and shot it up pretty bad. Some casualties
were
>suffered by the police but they did not shoot back. The black leadership
>didn't want any voters lost. Kill one of them and you may lose an entire
>family of votes. Yesterday is the first reported killing of the gangsters
>when five of them were shot by the army after being attacked on a bridge
>site. Unofficial stories of the army cleaning out these pests say many
have
>been killed but the media is not entering those areas. It seems that news
>people were shot at along with everybody else.
>
>The shelters were no havens. Hundreds of women were raped and refugees
were
>beaten to death. Security police in the superdome were beaten and thrown
>out into the water by the black gangs so they could have mob rule.
>Vigilante action by some of the refugees was all that saved any of the
>whites or women from them. They apparently threw some of the bad guys off
>the upper tier of the dome onto the lower seats.
>
>This was a repeat of Watts and Newark, and every African nation when white
>government surrendered control. Contrast this to The Miss. Coast where the
>actual damage to structures and loss of life is immensely greater. No
>looting or anarchy is being reported, Could it be that it is because of
the
>quality of the citizens? The war cry of the uninvolved is that this is
>clearly a racial thing and we didn't want to help the poor of New Orleans.
>Possible 100,000 people stayed behind and you cannot tell the gangsters
>from the populace. Volunteers lined up to help immediately but were
>repulsed by gunfire. We must be southern bigots who wouldn't undergo
combat
>conditions to rescue those folks wanting to get out after the storm. The
>overwhelming majority of rescuers are white, the bus drivers who are
>hauling them out are white, the coast guardsmen are white, the places
where
>the refugees are now housed are in white neighborhoods, my daughter has
>four elderly blacks staying with her in Houston, etc. There has been no
>offers of help from the black community or churches. Our local black
>college has done little to help, no black churches opened the buildings
for
>refugees, no black politicians made facilities available ( most have
busses
>and some have new meeting halls or gyms in the black neighborhoods). Yep
it
>is a racial thing, if a black has a problem, it is whitey's fault and we
>are criticized for not fixing it fast enough. Remember the cry of the
>looters - I've got to get food furor my babies. Did you see any babies in
>the dome or any other shelter? People who cared about family and children
>and babies were all gone from the city before the storm in most cases.
>
>Don't worry about the city, it will be back in operation in many areas by
>the end of next week. Several weeks will be required to pump out the
lowest
>areas of town but the city will be functioning long before that. The
higher
>areas will re-occupied when electricity is restored. This week people are
>visiting their homes to recover what they need for the next few days.
>Remember that many areas had flooded streets not flooded houses. The
lowest
>areas that you see flooded to the roofs are not the slums, these are
>generally middle class areas where they build in areas that were filled in
>marshes and are actually well below sea level. The slums will be refilled
>long before these low areas are rebuilt. Slums are old areas and old
timers
>knew better that build in the marsh lands so they will still be there and
>occupied in weeks.
>
>To address the last of the criticism of New Orleans management, they did
do
>several things to protect the city such as have the Corps of Engineers
>build that sea wall in the last twenty five years and install several huge
>pumps for the low lying areas. How much more were you as a taxpayer
>willing to give to make New Orleans waterproof??? We had to compete with
>making Los Angeles and San Francisco earthquake proof during the last
>twenty five years. If the Corps of Engineers that studied the problem
>decided a seawall was the most cost effective way to protect the city, I
am
>amazed to hear how damn smart in engineering some magazine editors are on
>this subject. Remember the catastrophe only occurred after the boats and
>barges slammed into the seawall. Without that blunder the city would have
>been dry and no problems would have been encountered and a lot fewer black
>citizens would be sporting AK-47's and stolen diamond rings.
>
>Think about it.

mega i know u didn't type this but tell your friend...
http://myspace-560.vo.llnwd.net/00210/06/59/210279560_l.gif

[Reddman]

Ok let's see some revisionist racist tract you take as fact. Yet recent detailed journalist coverage on the facts surrounding some of the whys ,hows and whos from a cross section of sources you have problems with. Gimme a friggin break.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

having known Mega for years I can honestly say he sure as hell aint racist
I will say this though
now that the hurricane is gone, now that so many people have died it's time to rip someone a new asshole for what's gone on in that superdome........
maybe I'm wrong for saying this but kill the lights and send in troops with nightvision and take out as many thugs as you can. Get the women & children out 1st and then get the sick & elderly out. Let those thugs who caused havoc swim to safety for all I care. People sleeping in the stench of urine & feces is disgusting, not to mention the dead bodies.

[Reddman]

having known Mega for years I can honestly say he sure as hell aint racist
I will say this though
now that the hurricane is gone, now that so many people have died it's time to rip someone a new asshole for what's gone on in that superdome........
maybe I'm wrong for saying this but kill the lights and send in troops with nightvision and take out as many thugs as you can. Get the women & children out 1st and then get the sick & elderly out. Let those thugs who caused havoc swim to safety for all I care. People sleeping in the stench of urine & feces is disgusting, not to mention the dead bodies.



Hey i concur jwbl. I got no love for thugs of any race. hang 'em high but i'm sick of people see cannot see the difference between the majority of fine folks stuck in the most hellacious of situations and the minority of gangbangers/psychopaths wrecking havoc. the writer does not and cannot tell the difference and that BS about black organizations not stepping up to help is just that bull too. Mind you i'm no fan of the church on the whole but i've seen quite few stories on everyday people of all colors helping the have nots across the country and then some.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I agree redd, the only people really screaming racism are people that haven't tread through that water........

[Reddman]

I agree redd, the only people really screaming racism are people that haven't tread through that water........

True that!!!!

[thanos]

There's E. Coli in the water and reports of Cholera breaking out. And the Fox News feed reported a few hours ago that the Superdome will have to be Demolished.

Superdome before - http://maps.google.com/maps?q=superdome&ll=29.951776,-90.078930&sll=29.997137,-90.095369&spn=0.004221,0.006248&sspn=0.004441,0.006577&t=k&num=10&start=0&hl=en

Superdome after -
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=superdome&ll=29.951776,-90.078930&sll=29.997137,-90.095369&spn=0.004221,0.006248&sspn=0.004441,0.006577&t=e&num=10&start=0&hl=en

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

damn

to really appreciate the power of mother nature look how far the dome is off its center
and that was with a packed complex inside

[LG]

Actually, former First Lady Barbara Bush seems to think that what went one in the Superdome must have been a barrel of laughs and that for most people being herded into a hot smelly place having lost all your possessions and still fearing for your life was a very postitive expereience. Read on:


Hurricane Katrina victims in Houston, Texas were "underprivileged anyway" and life in the Astrodome sports arena is "working very well for them," former first lady Barbara Bush says.

The comments by the mother of President George W Bush have fueled the ire of some Americans, who see the Bush family as out-of-touch patricians.

"Almost everyone I've talked to says 'we're going to move to Houston,'" Bush said in a radio interview after visiting evacuees at the Astrodome with her husband, former president George Bush.

"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality," she said.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this - this is working very well for them."

One news (tvnz.co.nz)

I would suggest that the whole Bush family, GHW senior, monkeyboy and all the kids, grandkids and cousins, should move permanently into the Superdome pronto, since it's so nice and pleasant. At least that will get them out of the White House.

[LG]

MegabodyNYC said:

THIS NEW ORLEANS THING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE....ITS A LOCAL GOVERNMENT FUCK UP......

Actually, the way it's appearing to the rest of the watching world, those of us in Europe especially, and the way it seems to appear on the BBC news is that it's not just a local government fuck up, but a major fuck up (or cock up as people say in the UK) by the US Government- a truly humbling litany of failures in the system, of apathy, of bad projections and predictions that have caused the preventable deaths of thousands of people.

And the BBC does ask whether the Government would have reacted quicker if the affected areas, especially New Orleans were predominantly white. It also points the finger of blame on the FEMA, and on a host of others, leading up through a trail of bad management and apathy to the President himself, who was even slower to react to this than he was to 9/11.

Maybe it isn't a racist thing. At least perhaps the response has not been consciously racist. But let me ask you, would the Federal Government have allowed all these deaths, loss of life and property and this disaster and mayhem to happen if the hurricane had been heading for a wealthier and politically more 'important' coastal state like New York, Florida, Texas, California or Washington state? Think about it.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

i guess if you are white and a man in america you are really out of touch

WAKE UP

RACISM
SEXISM
HOMOPHOBIA

are alive and well in this country-nothing proves how out of touch the govemerment is with the underlying realities of domestic policies in this country than the aftermath of hurricane katrina.

geez-we can spend billions of dollars on a useless war but yet

poverty is alive and well in this country-

and wait- let us no forget africa

where exactly was the 'police of the world' when mass genocides and civil war were/are taking place in many african countries?


oh i forgot-NO OIL IN AFRICA

darn it!

[LG]

MegabodyNYC shouted:

AND WHO FUCKING GIVES A RATS ASS WHAT AN NON AMERICAN THINKS....I SAY, KEEP YOUR SHIT TO YOUR OWN BACKYARD.....THE UK HAS PROBLEMS AS WE DO.....

That's nicely put. Actually I'm not from the UK, either, although I have lived in England for several years.

Maybe your attitude should tell you something about why not very many people like America today.

Actually, there were a lot of non-Americans in New Orleans when the disaster struck, and as far as I know, more than 100 Brits are still missing. That was on the BBC, too, I might add. In addition, the UK and various other European countries have begun contributing aid, through their governments and through charities to the relief efforts. So I think this has become a little bit more than a small local issue, don't you?

As far as what GW Bush thinks (or doesn't think), I can't say. I'm not saying the disaster relief has been slow because of racism (although you might admit that their have been rascist tendencies rearing their ugly head in how some things have been handled by the law enforcers or the press, perhaps) just that the (local and Federal) Government reaction and the relief effort has been achingly slow, and the efforts made early on were minimal, unlike those being made on the "war on terror".

So you might not give a shit about what I think is wrong with America today (and what Allanah thinks, and many others) but I seriously don't think that rap music, video games or movies are to blame for everything. On the other hand the fact that some people are rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of their shares in infrastructure related companies rising in value on the NYSE may give you a more real view of where America's true priorities lie.

I rest my case.

[shemalejunky]

Hey Allanah, there is lots of oil in Africa...lots, Nigeria, Sao Tome, Guinea, etc.

I am sick and tired of this shit...blame the white man, blame blame blame, what a load of shit. You had the chance to leave, you should have left. And hell ya, if you want to stay and loot, good for you, but when a National Guardsman blows you away, don't come crying to 'the whiteman'.

Fuck this shit. Take some responsibility for your own ignorance, raise yourself out of poverty and stop depending on the handouts of the welfare state.

[geekmeat]

i guess if you are white and a man in america you are really out of touch

WAKE UP

RACISM
SEXISM
HOMOPHOBIA

are alive and well in this country-nothing proves how out of touch the govemerment is with the underlying realities of domestic policies in this country than the aftermath of hurricane katrina.

geez-we can spend billions of dollars on a useless war but yet

poverty is alive and well in this country-

and wait- let us no forget africa

where exactly was the 'police of the world' when mass genocides and civil war were/are taking place in many african countries?


oh i forgot-NO OIL IN AFRICA

darn it!

Ive been saying this but since I was not "politically correct" in my speech I was dismissed but everything I have said is true.
You have to speak truth to power,kinda like what Kayne West did.
Why do the good people have to sit on their hands while being abused by these evil bastards?
Why can WE get angry and curse a little instead of taking a bunch of shit?
Just say whats on your mind.
God knows the republicans do and they ARE NOT TACTFUL when they do.
Remember Dick Armey representative from Texas(of course) calling a fellow congresmen a "fag"?
You have to stand up to these bullies.
Now I guess Bush is going to investigate "what went right and what went wrong" in this matter.
How touching.........

[Quinn]

i guess if you are white and a man in america you are really out of touch


This is just a silly and irresponsible statement.



oh i forgot-NO OIL IN AFRICA


Actually, Africa is loaded with oil. Just a few African nations providing oil include Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Angola, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, and Tunisia.

-Quinn

[NickTheQuick]

...

[geekmeat]

"where exactly was the 'police of the world' when mass genocides and civil war were/are taking place in many african countries? "

Not exactly true. Sure the scale of involvement is smaller (and sometimes covert) compared to current Afganistan and Iraq battles but you can't say non-existent. One example for those who might have been too busy (or too young) to watch news reports, is Somalia and the US involvement there. At least watch Black Hawk Down, decent movie (next best thing, although not completely accurate I'm sure). There are too many civil wars and the US cannot possibly stick their nose in all of them.

Stay out of American business german.

[evil_twin]

What strikes my as interesting is how the first person in this thread to bring up some thing about black people is MegabodyNYC.
Who cares what you're tired of hearing.

No ones blaming the white man, global warming or poor levees, we're blaming the government. (local, state and federal)
And what's wrong with asking for help, They're were dying down there!
All that bullshit bureaucracy about the governor did not ask for federal help is bullshit.
They knew what was going on down there. It was all over the news even before it hit land.
I swear some people have show their true selves during this tragedy with their lack of compassion for people that are dying.

All you and your anonymous, coward friend keep doing is making the same damn point about the looting, shootings, rapes and other violence by black people.

And if I hear another white person say something about our communities, I going to scream.
You don't know anything about communities.
Sure there's violence. Violence is everywhere.
There's also good hard working people and business.
We are even donating money and giving items to the victims.
Most of us looks out for one another other then "borrowing a cup sugar".
We have shelters and food banks for the poor, elderly and homeless.
You're friend said no one is helping this elderly black couple in their building.
Then they can help!
Thats one fucking situation.
What about the black churches and organization that do help.
My next door neighbor was a 81 year old white man and the neighbors made sure he ate, his house was clean and his grass was cut when his own sister would not show up for months.

Y'all love to point out when black people act violent. You run it in fucking hole. Always emphasizing how we're doing shit to our own people.
Whites don't have clean fucking hands either.
Before the hurricane, for years, all you saw on FOX NEWS, CNN and MSNBC was...
- white women that was murdered by their husbands.
- white sex offenders kid napping and killing little kids
- white people shooting up their jobs and employees
- white kids shooting up their schools and class mates
- white woman killing their babies cause of depression
- white men killing their entire families
- white woman trying to kill women for their un-born babies
- white men going postal
- most serial killers are white middle age men
should I go on?
I know what the problems is.
The news is not talking about Natelee Hollaway any more.

And who cares about your mulatto kids and wife.
By marrying you, she made your ass better.

And you got the nerve to tell non-americans on the board to be quiet.
You're willing to be ignorant to make a insignificant point.

Now, go ahead and break away at what I said and find little bits here and there that you can use to make more stupid comments.

[NYCe]

[
Stay out of American business german.

It would probably help your arguement if Liekenziedick, Germany was a real place.

[geekmeat]

[
Stay out of American business german.

It would probably help your arguement if Liekenziedick, Germany was a real place.

Oops
My bad.....lick en ze dick......
Its a shame that Nick has shown himself to be such an ass.........I kinda liked him before all this.

[bleelah]

LOL "genocide", give me a fucking break. People can't handle the tiniest loss of life nowadays, we've been reduced to a bunch of self-privelidged crybabies. Just 70 years ago hundreds of thousands of people would be dying on a daily basis, and people were still able to get on with thier lives. Now every death is a fucking national tragedy, get over it.

[evil_twin]

LOL "genocide", give me a fucking break. People can't handle the tiniest loss of life nowadays, we've been reduced to a bunch of self-privelidged crybabies. Just 70 years ago hundreds of thousands of people would be dying on a daily basis, and people were still able to get on with thier lives. Now every death is a fucking national tragedy, get over it.

weird comment
we should all get on with our lives.
we can still have some compassion.

[Quinn]

[
Stay out of American business german.

It would probably help your arguement if Liekenziedick, Germany was a real place.

LMAO..

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

LOL "genocide", give me a fucking break. People can't handle the tiniest loss of life nowadays, we've been reduced to a bunch of self-privelidged crybabies. Just 70 years ago hundreds of thousands of people would be dying on a daily basis, and people were still able to get on with thier lives. Now every death is a fucking national tragedy, get over it.

in 1935 I'm sure no one got on with their lives during the radio announcements of massive death, whether it was in Europe, in the south, etc. People need time to grieve and vent.

[NickTheQuick]

...

[brickcitybrother]

Ladies and Gentleman:

I am truly dumbfounded by the failure of people to acknowledge the obvious. There was a failure of leadership - simply put. Whether race played a card in it, will not be proven anytime soon (if ever). But to fail to acknowledge the failure - hampers any recovery effort. I am now no longer focused on the past, but the present. The administration's complete resistance to the truth - will prevent truly effective change (from failure to success). The first step in correcting any problem is to acknowledge its existence. To say to the FEMA head 'Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job' is just disheartening. FEMA's MANDATE is to be first responders and then coordinators of disaster relief. They have yet to do there job. As we sit and debate - the mismanagement continutes. See http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/katrina.charleston/index.html?section=cnn_latest (Victims taken by FEMA to wrong city).

Look Mega, Nick and the rest who prefer not to acknowledge the failure at the very top... I wonder whether you're this lackadaisical about the issue YOU care about. To be curt - I try very hard not to base my opinions on my own life experiences. I do this because no matter how much life I lived - I have not lived 'everyone's' life so my opinion will - if I let it - be 'jaded' by my own experiences. Rather I try to carry opinions based on a wider range or group of experiences. That way I do not see things just through my own eyes - but through the eyes of others. Then I try to make what I think is the best opinion.

I will give a non-controversial example. I believe a man is hypocritical when he says he is anti-death penalty (unless it was my mother/child/wife etc.). Why do I believe he is a hypocrite? Because he bases his opinions solely on his life's experiences. We should kill people, unless they hurt me! Hypocritical and selfish. That person does not take into account the feelings/rights/lives of others... only himself.

I see quite a few responses that seem to only take into account the personal feelings of the author, but does not take into account the feelings/rights/lives of the victims (or their families) of this disaster. Perhaps you will care more when it hits YOU. I will not. Because I already care. The reason am I critical here on this board (as well as many other places) is because the people that can improve things - care about the Opinion Polls. If they did not ... things would be much different (I'm not saying better or worse). Noone can truly argue that the relief effort did not come under full swing until the major news organizations and networks began earnest criticism of the failures of the relief efforts. I was completely shocked to see FOX NEWS, CNN and MSNBC all directly criticize the FEDERAL Government's reaction/response ... with FOX NEWS personally critical of the president's failure to view the affected areas until 2 days after the devestation.

To everyone I say - people of all races/ages/creeds/nationalities and religions are dead and are still dying. If you can contribute money/shelter/etc please do so. But at the least, keep the pressure on the Administration. If you cannot understand this post then do one thing as a favor. Please imagine that it was YOUR mother/father/son/daughter/wife/husband/etc. in the waters of New Orleans or Biloxi or wherever. Would you still praise the Adminstration whose job it was (and still is) to provide them with rescue, safe harbor, food and water? I will not. I will continue to be critical... until a real effort is truly underway.

~Brickcitybrother~

"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office."

H. L. Mencken

[chefmike]

I wasn't gonna comment anymore on this tragedy, but I do want to compliment you on that post...well said, brickcitybrother...

[AllanahStarrNYC]

I know there is oil in Africa-
it was figurativek, but I guess that is hard to denote in writing-

In any case, I stand by what I have said, and will continue to say about the current administration

IT'S HELPLESS

even the president's mother thinks the hurricane was good for the poor people it affected-

could these people be anymore out of touch?

i guess so and maybe a lot of americans are as well- after all he did get re-elected.

it's really a complete shame that this great country gets a baffoon for a leader who can't even manage public speaking as it's leader.

in any case- let me tell you all something.
my family and i lived through hurricane andrew in 92 in one of the most affected areas. i remember very clearly that the landscape looked like world war 3 afterwards and how it felt to live in those conditions for about a week- which is no where near the level of devastation of this storm.
so i know what it's like for your house to be destroyed, to have to move to a new place while it is rebuilt, and all the trauma that goes along with it.

regardless, i hope everyone here has contributed something to the relief.
you never know when u might need it as well so..

COUGH IT UP

wether it be your time, $, or whatever....

[NickTheQuick]

...

[Quinn]

Good post brickcity. Just had to correct you on something. I never said or implied that Bush and his administration do not share a large part of the blame for the lack of help to those people affected by this tragedy. I argued against (both sides at times) those who stubbornly believed that only one side is to blame.


I second that motion. There is plenty of culpabilty at all levels of government for this fiasco, starting at the local level and going all the way up to the president.

-Quinn

[geekmeat]

Unfortunately this tragedy is just the beginning of Americas demise.
We are consumed by lust for material things and money to the point of destroying ourselves.
America is becoming a christian theocracy like Iran is a muslim theocracy.
Fundamentalism,the blind faith in some unforseen god and a shunning of science are leading us to our doom.
America has a lot to pay for and unfortunately this disaster is just the beginning im afraid.
I listen to right wing radio from time to time and heard Michael Savage say that "You know you dont care about this.....lets talk about something else".
Savage is jewish.
Imagine if a black talkshow host or even a white one(WASP) had said "Oh the holcaust.....who cares".
He went one to call the survivors "animals" and said "You know you dont want THEM living next to you".........We all know what he meant by that.
He went on to say that they government shouldnt give them any money they could just "Loot in whatever city they were in".
The hate and racism coming from white america makes me sometimes think "We deserved 9/11"
I know its wrong......
I hear these statements from CERTAIN white people NOT all of them and I can feel the hatred building inside of me.

[evil_twin]

GEAKMEAT.....YOUR NOT A STUPID MAN......YES, RACISM EXSISTS IN ALL RACES ESPECIALLY BLACKS ON BLACKS, THEY ARE KILLING EACHOTHER OVER SHIT LIKE SNEAKERS....READ THE DAILY NEWS HOW 2 YOUNG BLACK TEENS WHERE SHOOTING AT EACHOTHER AND KILLED A 10YEAROLD BLACK GIRL ON HER BIKE.........IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE.........TO SAY THAT "We deserved 9/11" IS THE WORDS OF A FOOL........YOUR NOT A FOOL GEAKMEAT, I DEFINATLY DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU ON YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS, BUT THATS NORMAL. WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN OPINIONS.....BUT....WHY DID THE PEOPLE OF 911 DESERVE TO DIE, WHERE THEY ALL RACISTS.......DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY GOOD BLACK , LATIN , ASAIN AND NON-WHITE PEOPLE WHO DIED IN THAT TRADGEY........PLEASE GEAKMEAT....I RESPECT YOUR DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW BUT IF YOU WISH BAD ON ANYONE JUST TO PROVE A POINT THEN THATS BAD KARMA FOR YOU PERSONALLY....STATEMENTS LIKE THAT RUIN YOUR CREDABILTY......TAKE THAT BACK


Megabody, I don't know if you read my last post or not.
Either a black person has hurt you in the past or you are very stupid.
But, every time you respond to someone no matter what was just said, you feel the need to throw "black" people and "black" crimes in someones face.

Every time you turn on the news you see blacks killing each other.
Well, every time I turn on the news I see a whites killing each other also.
Your race do not have clean hands, but you take any negative you see about my race and group us all in it.
Every time there's an amber alert, it's a lil white kid being kidnapped by some white sex offender.
pregnant white woman dying by the husbands
white woman killing their newborns.
white men shooting their co-workers
I'm mean where the term "going postal" come from?
How the hell are you going to answer a question about racism by saying blacks are killing each other. TALK ABOUT RACISM!!
you need to get off your fucking high horse and clean up your own people's mess and stop acting like y'all a bunch of innocent law-abiding citizens.

[speck]

The buck stops with the President - he had the power to make the calls and supercede anyone at any level under him.
seanchai

Actually this is not true. The Constitution is the controlling document in the United States(remember we are not a dicatorship...the President cannot do things that are not specifically granted in the constitution, certain actions this century notwithstanding). The governor of Louisiana(and for any other state) has control of their National Guard troops for domestic natural disasters. The president only has control for matters of war.

Also I will note that George Bush has no authority whatsoever to mandate that there be an forced evacuation in any state of emergency unless martial law is declared.

Where Bush did not screw up is:

1.) He was not and could not be involved in prehurricane issues. That was the job of local government
2.) The argument that funding to US Army corp of Engineers was cut is bullcrap. I did finally find an article that quoted a real number. In 2003 funding was cut from $36 million to 10.3 million. Hardly to a trickle as the NO Times Picayne described it WITHOUT ever quoting an actual number, but certainly an overwhelmingly significant number. But it is all bullcrap anyway because the section of the levy that was breached had been upgraded in 2002 anyway.
3.) The immediate aftermath...What was it that Bush could do here? The National Guard was constitutionally in control of Governor Blanco. In fact, Mayor Nagin gave an interview where he stated that Bush had told him Bush had asked Blanco to cede control of the Louisiana National Guard so that they could be under the control of Lt. General Honore, and Bush told Nagin that Blanco said she needed 24 hours to make that decision. That delay cost lives.

What Bush did screw up on:

1.) The people he appointed and approved of in FEMA. Even the Bill O'Reily's and Sean Hannity's are giving him crap on this one.

2.) Failure to order use of available military aircraft to lift survivors out of the superdome/convention center area. It's an absolute catastrophe and tragedy that these individuals were stuck for any time at all. I believe that FEMA could have asked Bush to do this, and I also believe that Bush could have offered this up to FEMA.

3.) Failure of FEMA to utilize the major airport(forgot what it's called, but it was not underwater) as an evacuation point. The number of people that could have been flown out is staggering and I have no idea why no one thought of this.

Bottom line is you hate Bush and are looking for anything you can to find fault with him. I strongly suggest you research facts. Very pertinent facts are the emergency plans that were in place prior to Katrina, if those plans were utilized, exactly what authority each governing body had, what upgrades were recommended for the levy system in New Orleans, what upgrades were done, what plans were in place for the post hurricane if any at all.

I don't much understand emotional responses to politics and tend to believe that such responses come from lack of information. A informed individual can make a logical argument based on a factual foundation. Such a informed individual also does not become upset or emotional when logically and factually proved wrong. They modify their point of view once incorporating that new information, or they discard the information as incorrect.

You seem like a very reasonable person when not discussing politics. I really think it would do you well to become aware of fact, and find fault with your opponents where actual fault really exists. It makes your arguments against your opponents all that much stronger. With farcical arguments, it is easy for an opponent to discard everything you say, even though some of it may be valid.

As an aside, I have sent you an pm that you may find useful. It is related to your websites.

[MichaelAcevedo]

Oh please stop whining. Why the f*** can't people do anything for themselves nowadays? Just because we have technology and millions of people means nothing.

If this was 2000 bc, they'd be lucky if even 2% of the population survived, hell that city would be gone and may not have even been there in the first place.

Gas was bound to go up anyways, whats going to happen when it runs out, blame the president? Oh yeah Clintons grandson didn't kill enough dinosaurs fifty million years ago so its his fault we don't have enough fossil fuels. Yeah okay whatever.

We are stuck on gas, deal with it. Until someone gets the guts to make a gas tax to change the infrastructure and manufacturing, there isn't jack that will be done, as every company is CORPORATE and is happy with what is there.

There was a lot more destroyed than just New Orleans, I thought two days was a good amount for him to step in, you haft to know the facts before you can just jump into everything. I went to bed Saturday night thinking it was going to disappear by Sunday evening once it hit land, and I'm sure alot of people felt that way as well.

Mother natures way of Shock and Awe (or God, Allah, Republicans, or whatever you want to play the blame game on) if you will, the hurricane left many stunned, and we are not at the technological, socialogical, and psychological level yet to handle a mass disaster of this magnitude, we may never be.

Even if we had Star Trek level technology, I still bet most of the city would have been destroyed and that there still would have been lives lost, as many people are just outright refusing to leave.

[LG]

I'm hoping we can settle this issue once and for all. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. The complacency of the local and Federal governments in facing up to Katrina both before and after she struck is not tantamount to genocide, "the systematic and deliberate destruction of a racial, ethnic or social group". It was merely complacency, apathy and incompetence to a high degree, and though I'm not an expert on politics, I would presume the buck stops with the President (although a large number of organisations and people are also to blame). Should heads roll? Well, I would expect to see a few resignations from the more responsible.

2. There is still racsim in America, as well as sexism and homophobia. If it is true that most crimes are commited by blacks (and it's not true for all kinds of crimes) then the reasons for this should be analysed and combated- these issues are social and political. There is also racism, even fascism in several other nations such as in Africa and the Middle East. This doesn't mean that the US should not face up to its own problems.

3. America is not neccessarily the greatest nation on Earth. The UN development index lists Canada and Japan above it, and Norway is streets ahead in terms of personal wealth, social development and even infrastructure. There is a huge poverty gap in the US that is not found in most European nations. America also depends on many other nations for support, for oil, for imported goods. There are many other nations with nuclear weaponry and many with similarly large armies. China, still developing, but at a fast rate, may soon eclipse the US in several aspects. Any American who believes that he lives in the greatest country on earth is an American who cannot recall Vietnam, the persecution of the Indians (Native Americans, as they are often called actually prefer to be called Indians) and Blacks, and the issues of drug abuse, crime and homelessness.

4. Americans who claim that foreign nationals shouldn't be concerned with American issues forget not only the fact that foreign nations more often than not been keen to support the US, as they are now post-disaster, and that there are many nationals from non-US nations living and working in the US, but also, primarily, that the US has poked its own nose in several countries' business, often when there was no reason to and often at the expense of many lives.

5. There are many people in nations across the world who dislike Americans and the US as a result of the issues in points 3 and 4.

Don't get me wrong here. I have visited America, have liked it and the American people I have met, and even loved parts of it, I have American friends and relatives in America. I truly love all that is right about America. But I find there is also a lot wrong, a lot of things preventing the US from being the greatest nation on Earth, and until the American people and Government recognise this, the image that the nation wants to project, of a benevolent and liberal leader of the world, will continue to be tainted by the conceit and ego it has shown many times in the past when handling issues both foreign and domestic.

Finally I agree that many people refused to leave their homes in New Orleans. But many others were unable to, or too poor to afford transportation. Katrina would have killed and injured people whatever the precautions taken. However, it seems that everyone underestimate the force and destructive power of Katrina and overestimate the water defence of New Orleans.

Whatever the causes and wherever the blame may lie, it has been a disaster, both a natural one and an administrative one, and for the watching world, a time to give support. I hope the people of the affected areas can find the strength to get back on their feet again soon. New Orleans has always been a city on my "Places to Visit" list (this also includes Yellowstone Park and the Dakota Badlands in case you were wondering- I've already ticked off San Francisco and NYC).


Just some early morning ramblings.

[evil_twin]

OOOOOPS EVILTWIN IS HAVING A BREAK DOWN......YOU HEAR ONLY WHAT YOU WANT, MAYBE ITS YOU......NO ONES HURT ME, I BELONG TO THE HUMAN RACE SON, JOIN ME, YOU MIGHT JUST LEARN SOMETHING.....

......YES, RACISM EXSISTS IN ALL RACES ESPECIALLY BLACKS ON BLACKS, THEY ARE KILLING EACHOTHER OVER SHIT LIKE SNEAKERS....

It's written right there in plain fucking english.
That was like your 3rd post about defending the white man and Bush and immediately it went into crimes committed by blacks.

I just tired of ignorant corwards that hide behind the internet to make stupid points.

[Ecstatic]

The governor of Louisiana(and for any other state) has control of their National Guard troops for domestic natural disasters. The president only has control for matters of war.
Excellent points across the board, speck. It's true that the governors of each state have control of the NG in their states for domestic and natural disasters, but the President has control in times of national crisis, which nominally relates to war but which arguably relates to interstate crisis (which Katrina certainly was). Regarding the command structure of the NG, the Army National Guard has this to say:

Command Structure

The Army National Guard exists in all 50 states, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the territories of Guam and the Virgin Islands, and the District of Columbia. The structure of the Army National Guard allows for command and control of units by individual Governors or the President of the United States, depending upon the nature of the call to duty.When Army National Guard units are not mobilized or under federal control, they report to the Governors of their respective state or territory. The President serves as commander-in-chief for units mobilized for federal active duty.

Soldiers of the Army National Guard aiding their community during a flood will most likely be in a state active-duty status, reporting to their governor. Soldiers deployed overseas in support of a federal mission will be under the control of the President of the United States.

The Army National Guard is structured across 50 states, three territories, and the District of Columbia. Each state governor serves as the commander in chief while the Adjutants’ General are responsible for training and readiness. At the state level, the governors reserve the ability under the constitution to call up members of the Army National Guard in times of domestic emergency.

http://www.arng.army.mil/about_us/organization/command_structure.asp

Regardless of whether the President could have commanded the NG to take action, superceding the command of the governors involved, the efficacy of the NG was limited as a result of Bush calling so many into service in Iraq. If fewer NG were deployed in Iraq, more would have been available to deploy on the Gulf Coast.

[brickcitybrother]

Excellent post Ecstatic!

I will just add and a footnote of sorts, the pertinent portions of The Insurrection Act 10 U.S.C. 15 Sec. 332:

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State or Territory by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

P.S. Judicial decisions have included in 'rebellion' chaos caused as a result of a natural Disaster.
~Brickcitybrother~

[jamans]

After reading this thread I am sure I am going to get bashed for this next statement...in ways it is totally unrelated to the Hurricane....

One of the things that I have noticed watching the news as of late is the amout of incredibally obese people who "live in poverty". Seems to me that if you are really that poor, it would be tough to be fat.



That being said, I think the reaction time for this was pathetic. The thing I hate about threads like this and the media circus surrounding this disaster is people playing the blame game. Does saying the mayor or govenor or Bush should of done something faster make the situation any better? Instead of placing blame on anyone I think much more energy should be focused on fixing the situation and preparing for future disasters like this.....Yes...I think there will be more.

[GroobySteven]

One of the things that I have noticed watching the news as of late is the amout of incredibally obese people who "live in poverty". Seems to me that if you are really that poor, it would be tough to be fat.


Quite the opposite, if you live in the US. Fast food like McDonalds, BK, White Castle (yum!), pizza etc is often cheaper and more gratifying than healthier options. Buying a chicken and vegetables at the supermarket more expensive then going to KFC. These companies know where there market is and it is in producing massive quantities of food at a cheap prices. Poverty and low education often go hand in hand, so many people would not even be aware what is bad for them (see McDonald's salads!).
When soda is cheaper than bottled water (and can have addictive qualities) then the conspiracy theorists ears are pricked again.

However, they may float better...
seanchai

[jamans]

Quite the opposite, if you live in the US. Fast food like McDonalds, BK, White Castle (yum!), pizza etc is often cheaper and more gratifying than healthier options. Buying a chicken and vegetables at the supermarket more expensive then going to KFC. These companies know where there market is and it is in producing massive quantities of food at a cheap prices. Poverty and low education often go hand in hand, so many people would not even be aware what is bad for them (see McDonald's salads!).
When soda is cheaper than bottled water (and can have addictive qualities) then the conspiracy theorists ears are pricked again.

However, they may float better...
seanchai

You do have a very valid point Althouh I am sure that the fast food lobists would got insane over this idea....Food stamps/cards should no longer be accepted at any place other than a grocery store. Fast Foot is definatly out of the question.

Another Essay to get your opinons....

Get Off His Back


By Ben Stein

Published 9/2/2005 11:59:59 PM


A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth:

1.) The hurricane that hit New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama was an astonishing tragedy. The suffering and loss of life and peace of mind of the residents of those areas is acutely horrifying.

2.) George Bush did not cause the hurricane. Hurricanes have been happening for eons. George Bush did not create them or unleash this one.

3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born.

4.) There is no overwhelming evidence that global warming exists as a man-made phenomenon. There is no clear-cut evidence that global warming even exists. There is no clear evidence that if it does exist it makes hurricanes more powerful or makes them aim at cities with large numbers of poor people. If global warming is a real phenomenon, which it may well be, it started long before George Bush was inaugurated, and would not have been affected at all by the Kyoto treaty, considering that Kyoto does not cover the world's worst polluters -- China, India, and Brazil. In a word, George Bush had zero to do with causing this hurricane. To speculate otherwise is belief in sorcery.

6.) George Bush had nothing to do with the hurricane contingency plans for New Orleans. Those are drawn up by New Orleans and Louisiana. In any event, the plans were perfectly good: mandatory evacuation. It is in no way at all George Bush's fault that about 20 percent of New Orleans neglected to follow the plan. It is not his fault that many persons in New Orleans were too confused to realize how dangerous the hurricane would be. They were certainly warned. It's not George Bush's fault that there were sick people and old people and people without cars in New Orleans. His job description does not include making sure every adult in America has a car, is in good health, has good sense, and is mobile.

7.) George Bush did not cause gangsters to shoot at rescue helicopters taking people from rooftops, did not make gang bangers rape young girls in the Superdome, did not make looters steal hundreds of weapons, in short make New Orleans into a living hell.

8.) George Bush is the least racist President in mind and soul there has ever been and this is shown in his appointments over and over. To say otherwise is scandalously untrue.

9.) George Bush is rushing every bit of help he can to New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama as soon as he can. He is not a magician. It takes time to organize huge convoys of food and now they are starting to arrive. That they get in at all considering the lawlessness of the city is a miracle of bravery and organization.

10.) There is not the slightest evidence at all that the war in Iraq has diminished the response of the government to the emergency. To say otherwise is pure slander.

11.) If the energy the news media puts into blaming Bush for an Act of God worsened by stupendous incompetence by the New Orleans city authorities and the malevolence of the criminals of the city were directed to helping the morale of the nation, we would all be a lot better off.

12.) New Orleans is a great city with many great people. It will recover and be greater than ever. Sticking pins into an effigy of George Bush that does not resemble him in the slightest will not speed the process by one day.

13.) The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level. Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.

God bless all of those dear people who are suffering so much, and God bless those helping them, starting with George Bush.

[NYCe]

After reading this thread I am sure I am going to get bashed for this next statement...in ways it is totally unrelated to the Hurricane....

One of the things that I have noticed watching the news as of late is the amout of incredibally obese people who "live in poverty". Seems to me that if you are really that poor, it would be tough to be fat.



"The states that are becoming obese are the states that are low income," says Adam Drenowski, PhD, director of the Center for Public Health Nutrition at the University of Washington in Seattle. States that rank among the lowest in household incomes -- Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, and West Virginia -- are those with the highest percentages of obesity. Conversely, Connecticut and Massachusetts, which are among the wealthiest states, have among the lowest obesity rates,

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52444

You can't find a Whole Foods in the 'hood.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

u know

when i write my column on my website this month-
which will of ocurse include the hurricane, my polical views, and and disgust for the prsident i will have to see how manyy hate emails i get!

the best is when guys come up to me at the party and try to ask me, or convert me to their neo nazi republican views-

i hope those were never intended to be pick up lines because if so, they were the WORST pick up lines ever heard.

thats a perfect way to get me into a horrible mood- someone to start telling me how much they like the president- almost as bas as someone talking to me in my face with bad breath- they both make me want to vomit.

[tsluver247]

u know

when i write my column on my website this month-
which will of ocurse include the hurricane, my polical views, and and disgust for the prsident i will have to see how manyy hate emails i get!

the best is when guys come up to me at the party and try to ask me, or convert me to their neo nazi republican views-

i hope those were never intended to be pick up lines because if so, they were the WORST pick up lines ever heard.

thats a perfect way to get me into a horrible mood- someone to start telling me how much they like the president- almost as bas as someone talking to me in my face with bad breath- they both make me want to vomit.

Here is an organization that is tried to elect President Bush that was going to take away their rights: Log Cabin Republicans (http://online.logcabin.org/). Bush will complete his facist movement when John Roberts becomes the Chief Justice. Bush will also most likely nominate Alberto Gonzales to top it off. Guess what will happen next? End of Affirmative Action, end of abortion, end of porn, end of free speech, and end of church and state.

[tsluver247]

God bless all the Americans that died while Bush was still on vacation during the first two days after the Hurricane hit. God bless all the Americans that gave their life in Iraq War, that did not have WMDs and the 9/11 commission said that Iraq and 9/11 had no connection. Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL for short). No one died when Clinton lied.

[chefmike]

regarding jamans post quoting ben "nixon stooge" stein...for those of you not familiar with bennie's background, he was a speechwriter for tricky dick ("im not a crook") nixon...and also worked for gerald ford, the stooge successor who pardoned tricky dicky...very credible source...

[NickTheQuick]

...

[tsluver247]

God bless all the Americans that died while Bush was still on vacation during the first two days after the Hurricane hit. God bless all the Americans that gave their life in Iraq War, that did not have WMDs and the 9/11 commission said that Iraq and 9/11 had no connection. Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL for short). No one died when Clinton lied.

I had no problem with your post until I got to the innocent looking last sentence. All US presidents have somebody's blood on their hands. I guess since your theme was God Bless all Americans... killing foreigners was ok? You perhaps forgot or chose to ignore while Clinton could no longer lie about getting his dick sucked, and in order to create a diversion from his impeachment trial he decided to bomb a sovereign country in the middle of it's civil war. Pulling a move similar to the "Wag the Dog" movie, except this shit was not Hollywood made. Most politicians are assholes no matter if they're Republicans or Democrats.

Do not try to twist my words and try to extrapolate my post by inferring to kill foreigners!!!!! That civil war was an act of genocide, which was proven at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) through the court case entitled Prosecutor vs Krstic.

Maybe you forgot that Bush is using the same tricks by chosing to nominate a Supreme Court Justice to "wag the dog" about the Karl Rove and his involvement with the Plame case. It has been 791 days since Karl Rove violated his obligations under Standard Form 312 without the White House taking “corrective action.”

I will agree that most politicians are assholes. Just Bush is the top asshole. :lol:

[NickTheQuick]

...

[tsluver247]

You said nobody died because Clinton lied, I said you were wrong. I wasn't trying to extrapolate nothing, just gave you a rhetorical question.

Wow, so you're one of the few that watches worldwide news(or at least you're good with google), good for you. However it seems you are only catching coverage of one side side of the story(and the wrong story altogether). I have no desire to give you my indepth rundown of the situation -- I'd rather spend my time watching Letterman. But most importantly you were talking about the Serbian vs Bosnian conflict, and I wasn't. US and NATO did not begin any airstrikes on Yugoslavia (mainly Belgrade) until the Serbia vs KLA conflict was well under way. If you are bored and want to learn where you might be misled in some areas look up KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army). Try to find out what the US had to say about them before the airstrikes on Yugoslavia began in Mar. '99.

Also check this out, some interesting articles in there ...
http://emperors-clothes.com/mac/list-m.htm

You quoted history lessons from a radical right wing site? No wonder you are misinformed. Who is getting the one side of the story? Do not spin the facts like a DJ spins records and accuse me of misinformation, when it is you that are supplying the misinformation.

How many people were killed in the .ca Lewinsky case? Once again, you are trying to take my words out of context. Are you running for a political office?

[NickTheQuick]

...

[tsluver247]

LOL I feel you on the bad breath issue Mega. Now tsluver, I must say I was not familiar with that website's existence or possible agenda prior to last night. All I know that some of the articles that I read from there regarding this conflict were loaded with facts. In one article alone there are quotes from the NY Times, London Times, LA Times, a Russian, Italian, and Irish newspapers... are they all right wing/conservative sources?(another rhetorical ?) Please. Don't be so stubborn, it is clear that you are liberal but I don't accuse you (or throw it in your face) of being a hard line leftist...just misinformed on this subject. Maybe you can read or at least scan over this...or is Wikipedia another right wing source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

I didn't need any of these articles to know what has happened in the Balkan region over the centuries, and in this case in the past 10 years. Not gonna try to proclaim the Serbs' innocence in all this. Just to point out that there is another side that was equally problematic but received far less negative attention than the Serbs. And unfortunatelly the US (and NATO) sided with one and bombed the other, killing many innocent civilians. I have spent many years there and still have many family members who are not right wing or left wing agenda spewing idiots. I have heard many of their stories over the years filling in the gaps where media might be missing info or facts completely.

And I will say this again...I have never voted for Bush. But I argued against the innocence of your seemingly personal favorite Clinton and you assumed the worst of me. Now I've said all I wanted on this subject, if you feel the need to have the last word feel free but don't take a non-response from me as a victory sign... because you cannot win this arguement. Lots of people died on Clinton's watch!!!

Oh yeah, and don't forget to vote for me....DJ Funkmaster Flex for President in '08!!!!!

There is always two-sides to a story, look at a traffic accident and think about how our history was formed. How do you have that what you are reading were facts?

Are you assuming that I did not use Wikipedia? Where you think I checked my facts on?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Genocide

And you are claiming that my facts are not straight or one sided? Is Wikipedia a left wing side? I did not quote some radical right wing nut site that is trying to murk the waters with one-sided misinformation.

Lots of people died on Clinton's watch? :lol: Lots of people die on any presidents' watch since death is a part of life, but Clinton did not send people to die for a lie.

Who said that I ever voted for Clinton or did not vote for Bush first term? Who said I am liberal? FYI, I was a Republican until the neo-con movement and I do not like the direction they are planning to take us. I am just looking at the results based on their decisions that they have made in office.

What happened to the fiscally responsible Republicans?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve-the-beast

Can not win this argument? Who attacked who?

[NickTheQuick]

...

[Quinn]

What happened to the fiscally responsible Republicans?


I'm a lifelong Independent who has found things he loathes and things he likes about each party – though I'll never become a shill for either of them. This question, however, is a very important one. One of the things I used to like about the Republicans is that they used to be the party that called for balanced budgets. Now, the Republicans have lost their mind when it comes to fiscal discipline – thereby joining the Democrats.

Why is this important? The deficits Washington is running pose a far greater threat to the future of this nation than terrorists or natural disasters ever could. Unfortunately, because the budget process is extremely complicated, most American’s (including many very smart ones) don’t understand the significance of what’s actually happening.

-Quinn

[geekmeat]

You have all heard stories about F.E.M.A's supposed imcompetance but it is something much more and sinister.
We all heard and read about and seen on the TV about all kinds of people trying to help.
Doctors,people with supplys,canadians,50 different countrys offering all kinds of help.
And yet they are NOT ALLOWED IN.
This is an OUTRAGE you say.
Yes.
But it is something even more sinister can you could ever imagine.
Why is aid not allowed in from other countries?
Why are supplies turned back by F.E.M.A?
Why?
Because the government doesnt want to let them in so THEY can award CONTRACTS later on to corporations for the cleanup.
Thats why.
And THAT is how this regime in Washington operates and it is a fact.
There are rumours now,certain firefighters are now saying that THEY set those fires to oil rigs in KUWAIT and I beleive them.
That is the evil called the bush administration.
The neo-con controlled bush administration.
Its ALL ABOUT MONEY get it!

[tsluver247]

You'll have to try having another last word on this subject because there's a couple things in your last post that I could not ignore.

"How do you have that what you are reading were facts? ...And you are claiming that my facts are not straight or one sided?"

Read my previous post and you'll see that I lived there for many years, and my thoughts on the subject are formed from either my, my family's or friends' (the ones are still living there) personal experiences. Reading newspapers and watching news is a distant second. Rather than trying to explain it all to you in here I thought posting a couple links with some meaningful info would be beneficial. But apparently not. You discredited one, for it's author's alleged agenda. Fine. Then you ignored the other. You can even say that I'm full of shit and I don't know what I'm talking about. Fine.

However, we both seem to agree that Wikipidea is a useful source of information. You however seem to be stuck on a wrong topic in there. You keep bringing up the Bosnian Genocide topic into the equation with your links and comments. Wrong conflict, wrong parties involved, wrong year, and wrong country. If you wanted to recap the past that is full of instability due to ethnic based conflicts in the area you'll have to go back centuries in the history books. What I keep trying to remind you with my link in previous post and some words in the post before that, is that I am not talking about what happened in '95 in Bosnia but rather what the US got involved in by the way of airstrikes in '99. If we cannot agree on the basic fact that these are two different conflicts, I might as well be talking to my dog.

"Lots of people died on Clinton's watch? :lol: Lots of people die on any presidents' watch since death is a part of life, but Clinton did not send people to die for a lie. "

I am missing the significance of the smiley face when you talk about death but that is besides the point. Well, at least we finally agree that all presidents have deaths on their watch. But then you say death is part of life. If you mean natural death then we agree. If you mean death by the way of murder, I am not as blase on that one. If you are why then did you make the big deal about the loss of life due to Katrina and the war in Iraq, if it's part of life? I felt your compassion for those victims but where is that same compassion for those that Clinton was killing? Was it because you were in favor of those airstrikes on Yugoslavia but not the ones on Iraq? Or is it because in one war US suffered minimal losses while in other they mount higher each day? All loss of life (civilian or otherwise) is tragic when it could and should have been avoided.

Just like you say Bush lied I say Clinton's lie and the impeachement process that followed caused unnecessary deaths but you disagreed. You are entitled to your opinion but I am hardly alone on mine. If you read the info in my last link you'll see what surrounding countries as well as some others, thought about the Kosovo War. If you knew much of the history of that area, at least what has happened there since '91 you too would be surprised by the timing (or motive) of Clinton's actions.

I apologize if I offended you by assuming that you are liberal. Your anti Bush statements as well as the attack on one of my sources, led me to believe you aren't Republican. Whatever you might be or who you choose to vote for is really no business of mine. Like I said most of the politicians are assholes.

PS I found this link on the bottom of the Wikipedia page I already gave you. It has many interesting articles written by a former Canadian Ambassador to Yugoslavia. You can either take the info he eloquently and passionately provides or discredit him also.

http://www.deltax.net/bissett/a-200years-1.htm

Did I win the argument since you reply to my comment when you said you were not going to? :wink: :lol: People are going to believe what they want to believe because of their positions. People usually retrofit information to support your way of thinking. Frankly, I do not like all the things that Clinton did as president (I did not like him in the beginning), but our nation prospered under his watch. As far as Bush, I can not say the same thing.

Did you know that under Reagan, GH Bush, and GHW Bush accured over 60% of our nation's total debt? GHW Bush's tax cuts should be called tax deferments, since we will be paying more taxes in the future because of his fiscal nonresponsibility.

You seem to disapprove the Kosovo War, which I can understand how some people can see that. Do you approve the Iraq War? Do you approve the Afghanistan War?

[tsluver247]

What happened to the fiscally responsible Republicans?


I'm a lifelong Independent who has found things he loathes and things he likes about each party – though I'll never become a shill for either of them. This question, however, is a very important one. One of the things I used to like about the Republicans is that they used to be the party that called for balanced budgets. Now, the Republicans have lost their mind when it comes to fiscal discipline – thereby joining the Democrats.

Why is this important? The deficits Washington is running pose a far greater threat to the future of this nation than terrorists or natural disasters ever could. Unfortunately, because the budget process is extremely complicated, most American’s (including many very smart ones) don’t understand the significance of what’s actually happening.

-Quinn

I totally agree. This is one of the main reasons why I vote more Democratic than Republican now. It took a Democratic president to get it done. The Republicans now will not reinstitute paygo (you can not raise spending on one program without cut spending taxes elsewhere or increasing taxes to make up the difference).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve-the-beast

[NickTheQuick]

...

[tsluver247]

Sure you won the debate, good for you. You did not provide one single point relating to the subject other than saying there is two sides to the story. Which is what I originally tried to get you to understand btw. I've done more than enough to try to educate you on the correct subject yet you ignore all of that and just keep bringing up right wing nuts, and now Reagan, and Bush's fiscal responsibility.

I tried to give you opinions on that war of some educated and informed people and all you seem to able to admit is that people retrofit their facts. Well in that case I've done all I can, I am gonna go talk to Sparky now (my dog in case you can't guess), he seems to be able pick up new information at least. Today I am gonna try to teach him how to appear retarded, something you have already mastered.

Congratulations again. No more political debates on a tranny board from me, too many brainiacs have their little head stealing the blood supply from their thinking head.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Believe what you want. Nice personal shot, politician. What did you say about politicians?

It was also nice to see you avoid the Iraq War question. While you say I ignorred some facts about the Kosovo War, I bet you are a hypocrite about the Iraq War. :lol:

[chefmike]

HOW BUSH BLEW IT!! If this newsweek article doesn't convince you that THE EMPEROR shrub HAS NO CLOTHES...you can't make this shit up!!! if this link doesn't work, i'm new to posting links, go to newsweek's web site...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434/