Hybrid Information.

[ef9hatchman]

If any members have one I recommend you Sell it. Before you get selfowned.
I only say this because, The batterie(S) on hybrid vehicles may cost up to 6-10 grand just to replace. Remember these motors are gas/electric So it uses alot of Battery power.:) I know its random Just dont like the little whistling cars.

[SarahG]

If any members have one I recommend you Sell it. Before you get selfowned.
I only say this because, The batterie(S) on hybrid vehicles may cost up to 6-10 grand just to replace. Remember these motors are gas/electric So it uses alot of Battery power.:) I know its random Just dont like the little whistling cars.

There are lots of problems with hybrids beyond that...

1- It is very hard to get insurance for them, I know a few car insurance companies will not insure a hybrid due to the fear over the high current electrical system for the electric motors.

2- Related to above, as of two years ago (I have no idea if this has changed since) you cannot use the jaws of life on a hybrid without endangering firefighters.

3- The mpg's aren't in real life anything like the way they're marketed. To actually see a significant benefit from the hybrid technology, you have to totally change your driving habits. On Jay Leno's Garage website, he test drove one of the hybrid SUV prototypes, you could tell from the video he wasn't abusing it, racing it, or driving it hard... yet he couldn't get anywhere near the mpg's they were bragging about. The tech from ford or GM or whoever made the suv (forget, its been a while since I saw the video) kept saying "someone earlier today was able to get this really great mpg rate out of this vehicle" but was very careful not to explain how they drove to get it.

4- When not caring about the MPG's and just driving it, the mpg advantage of the hybrid is negligible. Last season top gear put a hybrid on their track to see how it compared to a BMW in real life mpg's, and found no significant difference between the two. See Season 11, Episode #1 (http://www.hessmo.com/Hessmo/TG_Season_11.html). The BMW in their "test" probably would have gotten a couple mpgs less, just because the Prius was breaking the wind resistance for it, but it wasn't a dramatic difference in mpgs between the two when simply maintaining a meager speed (like highway driving).

5- Top Gear also pointed out in the same video that the long term environmental cost of the prius is actually worse than the Land Rover discovery. Given the environmental cost of making & trying to recycle the batteries, I am not surprised. You also can't assume everyone will dispose of their batteries correctly. How many people do we know who throw their dead car batteries or AA's out in the trash when they're dead? People simply don't care about how toxic materials are disposed of. Sure, when repaired in a shop, a shop will follow (in theory) the legal regulations on battery disposal, but what's going to happen when these hybrids are 15-25 years old and being repaired by treeshade mechanics or mechanically inclined owners? Even when the batteries are disposed of correctly, recycling only goes so far in reusing material (this is true for everything from plastics to metals). If your goal is to help the environment, then the key to helping the environment is lowering your resource consumption broadly... and that means more than gas MPG's. If you go out and buy a new car every year, because "this one gets better mpg's" you're basically overtaxing the environment in ways that simply don't occur for someone who is properly maintaining their older vehicle. It takes a hell of a lot of energy and natural resources (not to mention produces a fair amount of pollution) to simply manufacture a car. This is why electric cars are seen as RGP's (remote gross polluters). The car isn't making the pollution, but the factory that made it & its parts does, and the coal burning power plant that supplied the bulk of the electricity to the grid where it charged up was actively polluting as well. Since electric motors are also less efficient than internal combustion engines, the air pollution & global warming dangers are actually worse from electric cars. If you're really concerned about the environment, then you have to actually change your habits; and that means not using a car at all when you can avoid it (like walking, carpooling etc). Simply going out and buying a car because "well that's a hybrid so its better than the environment" is a myth used by suburbanites to pretend to show they care when really they just want a fashion statement since green is "the current fad".

6- The mpg ratings bragged about for hybrids (ignoring whether or not you can obtain them in reality) are actually less than what you can get with a first generation Geo Metro. If all you want to do is have a cheap eco car that can get good mpgs, go out and buy an older economy car... they get more mpgs, you'd be recycling (keeping a vehicle on the road), and wouldn't be introducing unnecessary environmental hazards from nickle mining or specialized battery disposals.

7- Let's think about the math a bit. If you're buying a hybrid to save money in fuel costs, you're sadly misguided. If you purchase a 2009 Prius today, the MSRP is $24,270. To keep it simple, let's round down to 24,000. If you're paying with a car loan, the real cost is going to be much higher than that because of all the various expenses and interest costs.

If you're buying a Prius to "save money" because of the amount of gasoline you're paying for, then the savings in gas would have to amount to $24,000 in order to "pay for the Prius..." and then to actually see an advantage, you'd have to save even more in fuel costs. To save $1,000 you'd effectively need the Prius to cost you $25,000 less in fuel than what you already pay.

The Prius's mpg ratings are 48 mpg city / 45 mpg hwy. To keep it simple, let's pretend you drive like a lil old lady and say you'll be getting 50 mpg's.

A typical American car owner puts 12,000 miles a year on their vehicle. That's why the price guide books will define less than that as "low mileage" and anything higher than that as "excessive mileage." Using that 50 mpg figure, that would be 240 gallons of fuel for the Prius. If gas was still at $4 a gallon, using the Prius this would work out to $960 a year in gas.

This is nothing without a comparison, so let's say the consumer is going from a blatant gas hog, like a Chevrolet Colorado (which gets 17 mpg city / 23 mpg hwy- let's round that to 20 mpgs combined driving) to a Prius, the math works out like this; 600 gallons of fuel per year, at $4/gal that's $2,400 a year in gasoline. This is a difference of $1,440.

Since you'd be paying $1,440 less a year in gasoline, at $4/gal you'd need to use the Prius for 17 and a half years just to see a $1,000 savings in long term fuel costs, and that length of time is going to be LONGER the cheaper gas is (right now its $1.65 near me).

[SenatorSin]

I have a Civic Hybrid. Have had it for two years now.The batteries are warrantied for 10 years or 150k miles in MA and some other states, the rest are 8 year/80k.

I drive about 33 miles to work, mostly highway and typically get 45 MPG. I don't drive slow, usually about 75 MPH. And this is on poorly maintained MA highways. For city driving, I seem to get between 37 and 40 MPG. I don't drive slow there either but I also don't do the very common and foolish things that many do, such as accelerating towards a line of cars stopped at a red light only to abruptly hit the brakes to come full stop or alternative between gas and brake until traffic comes up to full speed.

Didn't have a problem with insurance and never heard of anyone else having a problem.

As far as buying a hybrid for the sole purpose of saving money, I agree that that is stupid. You should only buy a hybrid if you are already in the market for a new car and like everything the car has. I'm not a big car person but I love my car. I'd still love it even if it weren't a hybrid because it's a good car.

There are used hybrids on autotrader for less than $15k that are only 4 or 5 years old so that is also an option for someone looking for a fuel efficient car.

[muhmuh]

On Jay Leno's Garage website, he test drove one of the hybrid SUV prototypes, you could tell from the video he wasn't abusing it, racing it, or driving it hard... yet he couldn't get anywhere near the mpg's they were bragging about.

its not like a suv will ever be economical, and a suv hybrid is little more than an insult to the intelligence of your customers

also since you already cited jeremy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnerrgmv16s
also note that jay was one of the judges on that one


Given the environmental cost of making & trying to recycle the batteries, I am not surprised.

thats mostly a problem of the prius' ancient nimh batteries which are obviously built from nickle ie a heavy and toxic metal
comapre that to something properly modern like lithium titanate batteries and you get none of the problems


Since electric motors are also less efficient than internal combustion engines, the air pollution & global warming dangers are actually worse from electric cars.

no idea where you got that from but youre way off there
a ic engine will have an efficiency of under 30% at best and thats for an unthrottled diesel (or one of the modern unthrottled petrol engines that arent in production yet); take a normal petrol engine and youre at the lower end of the 20% range up to maybe 25%
an electric motor on the other hand will easily do 90+% with the speed control being somewhere at around that range as well you will get 81% and thats before you factor in regenerative braking


I drive about 33 miles to work, mostly highway and typically get 45 MPG.

big whoop on episode 4 of season 12 top gear did a economy race and jeremy managed to do 53 mpg (imperal so thats about the same as your 45) with a v6 twin turbo diesel jag
http://www.hessmo.com/Hessmo/TG_Season_12.html

[hwbs]

hybrids have some of the worst resale values on the market ...so unless u don't care u should be planing on owning it for awhile...u typically pay about 5k extra for the hybrid technology than with the standard engine...so u are not really saving that much money...

[SarahG]

its not like a suv will ever be economical, and a suv hybrid is little more than an insult to the intelligence of your customers

Agreed, but the reason why I brought it up is because the auto makers have a habit of hyping hybrid efficiency beyond how it really delivers in practice. The industry has had a long tradition of that, the big three back in the 40s-50s would blatantly rig the fuel efficiency tests. They'd take a car, strip it of virtually everything, and then take all the time in the world going between two points- get an absurdly unrealistic fuel use figure for the trip, and then in marketting say "and this new yorker got 73 miles per gallon/went 1,000 miles on one tank!" etc. It was like pushing a car off a cliff to crash-test it, looks impressive.. but is meaningless in the real world.




I drive about 33 miles to work, mostly highway and typically get 45 MPG.

big whoop on episode 4 of season 12 top gear did a economy race and jeremy managed to do 53 mpg (imperal so thats about the same as your 45) with a v6 twin turbo diesel jag
http://www.hessmo.com/Hessmo/TG_Season_12.html

Lots of cars without hybrid technology get more than 45 mpg's. I want to say the two stroke saab's were getting 50-60 but I could be wrong. I know the first gen geo metros were getting way over 50 even on a bad day (friend of mine had one, it would get over 55mpgs while doing 80 on the highway) and that was a carb'd, low tech eco box without any significant amount of engineering focusing on fuel performance. If they had actually tried to make the metro more fuel efficient, MPI, DIS etc- it would have easily gotten more. But, the 2nd gen's weren't anywhere as efficient because Americans simply weren't buying them, hated the idea of a cheap shit car, so GM basically had to start throwing stuff on it to make it more appealing (better upholstery, sound deadening etc) and all that added enough weight to drag it down, and then the EFI they did decide to use wasn't as good as it could have been- the carb was actually better.

All those tougher crash test ratings are going to impact fuel efficiency too. It's hard to make a car stronger without making it weigh more. When the prius came out I was actually surprised it could get the same mpg's as a nonhybrid equivalent model because of the extra weight from the hybrid technology. Electric motors and batteries are not light weight at all.

[SarahG]

its not like a suv will ever be economical, and a suv hybrid is little more than an insult to the intelligence of your customers

Agreed, but the reason why I brought it up is because the auto makers have a habit of hyping hybrid efficiency beyond how it really delivers in practice. The industry has had a long tradition of that, the big three back in the 40s-50s would blatantly rig the fuel efficiency tests. They'd take a car, strip it of virtually everything, and then take all the time in the world going between two points- get an absurdly unrealistic fuel use figure for the trip, and then in marketting say "and this new yorker got 73 miles per gallon/went 1,000 miles on one tank!" etc. It was like pushing a car off a cliff to crash-test it, looks impressive.. but is meaningless in the real world.




I drive about 33 miles to work, mostly highway and typically get 45 MPG.

big whoop on episode 4 of season 12 top gear did a economy race and jeremy managed to do 53 mpg (imperal so thats about the same as your 45) with a v6 twin turbo diesel jag
http://www.hessmo.com/Hessmo/TG_Season_12.html

Lots of cars without hybrid technology get more than 45 mpg's. I want to say the two stroke saab's were getting 50-60 but I could be wrong. I know the first gen geo metros were getting way over 50 even on a bad day (friend of mine had one, it would get over 55mpgs while doing 80 on the highway) and that was a carb'd, low tech eco box without any significant amount of engineering focusing on fuel performance. If they had actually tried to make the metro more fuel efficient, MPI, DIS etc- it would have easily gotten more. But, the 2nd gen's weren't anywhere as efficient because Americans simply weren't buying them, hated the idea of a cheap shit car, so GM basically had to start throwing stuff on it to make it more appealing (better upholstery, sound deadening etc) and all that added enough weight to drag it down, and then the EFI they did decide to use wasn't as good as it could have been- the carb was actually better.

All those tougher crash test ratings are going to impact fuel efficiency too. It's hard to make a car stronger without making it weigh more. When the prius came out I was actually surprised it could get the same mpg's as a nonhybrid equivalent model because of the extra weight from the hybrid technology. Electric motors and batteries are not light weight at all.

[SarahG]

its not like a suv will ever be economical, and a suv hybrid is little more than an insult to the intelligence of your customers

Agreed, but the reason why I brought it up is because the auto makers have a habit of hyping hybrid efficiency beyond how it really delivers in practice. The industry has had a long tradition of that, the big three back in the 40s-50s would blatantly rig the fuel efficiency tests. They'd take a car, strip it of virtually everything, and then take all the time in the world going between two points- get an absurdly unrealistic fuel use figure for the trip, and then in marketting say "and this new yorker got 73 miles per gallon/went 1,000 miles on one tank!" etc. It was like pushing a car off a cliff to crash-test it, looks impressive.. but is meaningless in the real world.




I drive about 33 miles to work, mostly highway and typically get 45 MPG.

big whoop on episode 4 of season 12 top gear did a economy race and jeremy managed to do 53 mpg (imperal so thats about the same as your 45) with a v6 twin turbo diesel jag
http://www.hessmo.com/Hessmo/TG_Season_12.html

Lots of cars without hybrid technology get more than 45 mpg's. I want to say the two stroke saab's were getting 50-60 but I could be wrong. I know the first gen geo metros were getting way over 50 even on a bad day (friend of mine had one, it would get over 55mpgs while doing 80 on the highway) and that was a carb'd, low tech eco box without any significant amount of engineering focusing on fuel performance. If they had actually tried to make the metro more fuel efficient, MPI, DIS etc- it would have easily gotten more. But, the 2nd gen's weren't anywhere as efficient because Americans simply weren't buying them, hated the idea of a cheap shit car, so GM basically had to start throwing stuff on it to make it more appealing (better upholstery, sound deadening etc) and all that added enough weight to drag it down, and then the EFI they did decide to use wasn't as good as it could have been- the carb was actually better.

All those tougher crash test ratings are going to impact fuel efficiency too. It's hard to make a car stronger without making it weigh more. When the prius came out I was actually surprised it could get the same mpg's as a nonhybrid equivalent model because of the extra weight from the hybrid technology. Electric motors and batteries are not light weight at all.

[uktlover]

Get a diesel :p

[OEMEnemyNum1]

Get a diesel :p

Diesels Rock, I have 2 myself right now. Fuel for them is a Joke though. It used to be before ULSD became standard that the fuel was always cheaper, well not anymore.

I think hybrid is not the answer, at least in this form. I think different more efficient ignition of fuel is the answer (HCCI, and Direct Injection are good starts).



Here is a funny side note, the Ford F-150 was the number one selling vehicle this last year. So it seems like people still need a truck for a few things. I know I'd be in some trouble most of the time if I didn't have my truck.

[Odelay]

Why all the hate for the hybrids?

I own a Prius and have basically the same results as SenatorSin. No, you don't get 60 mpg, but you do get 45, and that's going 70 or 75 mph whenever you like. Insurance? Really. I had no problem. Resale value? I am hearing and reading stories that say the opposite... resale is staying high. And when oil prices inevitably inch back up, resale prices on high mileage vehicles will stay relatively high. The $24,000 of gas savings argument is ridiculous. That's saying someone will give you a new car for free with shitty mileage for ROI comparison. You might want to take a basic class on financial calculations to get that straight.

I got my Prius in the summer of 2007. I follow my old man's rule... never buy the 1st or 2nd year of a new model car. By 2007 Toyota had almost all the kinks worked out. The blind spot on the right looking back is a design flaw that has to be lived with. Other than that... they added some nice new features to the more recent models and my car is running great.

If you don't like hybrids... that's cool. But don't make shit up to rationalize your opinion.

[muhmuh]

To answer all 3 of your posts :P


Agreed, but the reason why I brought it up is because the auto makers have a habit of hyping hybrid efficiency beyond how it really delivers in practice.

Funny you never hear a word about hybrids in Germany; it's all diesels round here and for more than obvious reasons.
No wonder the hype works on americans, not long ago I looked at the Ford website and every one of the trucks had their milage written in letters as large as the picture of the car, as if 15MPG was anything to be proud of. If you were to put that on sale in Europe you'd sell exactly none.


I know the first gen geo metros were getting way over 50 even on a bad day (friend of mine had one, it would get over 55mpgs while doing 80 on the highway) and that was a carb'd, low tech eco box without any significant amount of engineering focusing on fuel performance.

Well yes but the Metro is also a pile of garbage with wheels on it. Take two of the cars in that TopGear episode to comapre against. The Jag does 53MPG with a V6 Twinturbo engine that's powerful enough to get itself round the Nordschleife in under 10 Minutes. It also has heated seats load of space and anything else a proper luxury car needs.
A more appropriate comparison would be the Polo which is about the same size as a Metro but unlike the Metro is a nice place to be in, nowhere near as embarassing to be seen in and it wont kill you if you happen to crash into something. So what you get is a proper modern car that also does 80MPG.


All those tougher crash test ratings are going to impact fuel efficiency too. It's hard to make a car stronger without making it weigh more.

Well obviously yes the thing is though you can get all of that from a modern diesel which will do more MPG than a Prius on cheaper fuel.
Granted both the hybrid and the diesel will make you suicidal in ways that a S2000 or even an MX-5 (particularly if your will to live is influenced by your ability to dress your own hair) wouldn't but with the diesel your kids would at least inherit some money.

[SarahG]

The $24,000 of gas savings argument is ridiculous. That's saying someone will give you a new car for free with shitty mileage for ROI comparison.

No it's fairly logical if you think about it. If you already own a car, don't need to replace it, and decide to spend the $24k for a new one -just- to get a mpg increase, then the math doesn't add up.

The example is moot if you need a new car anyway though.

[SarahG]

Well yes but the Metro is also a pile of garbage with wheels on it. Take two of the cars in that TopGear episode to comapre against. The Jag does 53MPG with a V6 Twinturbo engine that's powerful enough to get itself round the Nordschleife in under 10 Minutes. It also has heated seats load of space and anything else a proper luxury car needs.
A more appropriate comparison would be the Polo which is about the same size as a Metro but unlike the Metro is a nice place to be in, nowhere near as embarassing to be seen in and it wont kill you if you happen to crash into something. So what you get is a proper modern car that also does 80MPG.

So on that at least, we seem to agree I think. Its pretty easy to show you don't need to go to a hybrid to get decent mpgs, and the mpgs of the common hybrids on the market are clearly nothing to write home about.

I mean if a "pile of garbage with wheels on it" can get more mpgs, then you really have to wonder why the hype & cult following. :D

[Odelay]

The $24,000 of gas savings argument is ridiculous. That's saying someone will give you a new car for free with shitty mileage for ROI comparison.

No it's fairly logical if you think about it. If you already own a car, don't need to replace it, and decide to spend the $24k for a new one -just- to get a mpg increase, then the math doesn't add up.

The example is moot if you need a new car anyway though.

If you're going to use your existing car as the alternative in the calculations, you have to add in higher repair costs of your current vehicle vs. having minimal repairs handled under warranty. You also have to consider that if you use say a 5 year timespan, your current junker will have a resale value close to zero, while a 5 year old Prius will garner a salvage value of $8, $12, $16k, or whatever it is you might assume. Even if you peg it at a super low resale of say $5k, you don't have to make $24k of gas savings to show it's the better deal.

Sorry about the snippy rejoinder, earlier. :oops:

[SarahG]

If you're going to use your existing car as the alternative in the calculations, you have to add in higher repair costs of your current vehicle vs. having minimal repairs handled under warranty.

Unless you're driving a real rusty, beaten POS, repairs to keep a well maintained/cared for vehicle on the road are negligible in comparison of having to cover car payments on a new car.

I know lots of people with 5-15 year old cars, and its rare for me to hear someone I know with a car that old dumping much more than 2 grand a year on repairs to keep it road worthy. That works out to a lot less than $200 a month, plus on an older car you can get away with just having liability as far as insurance goes (which is cheaper). If you have carpayments and have to pay off a car loan, it is usually protocol to have to have full insurance so that the lender has something to repo in the event of you defaulting on it. They don't want people buying a car on time, crashing it into a tree w/out insurance and then going "the hell if i am paying for that car payment every month, i don't even have the car anymore!"

My car is almost 20 years old, the most I've ever paid in repairs in one year is 3 grand, but most years I don't pay a quarter of that in repairs (incl normal maintenance like brakes, tires etc). Ignoring fuel usage altogether, I don't pay shit to have a car when compared to a $24k car loan. And if something does break and I decide money is tight then I can just take the bus one month and it won't cost me a thing to leave it parked. If you have a car loan and lose your job, you still have to make those payments no matter what your financial situation.

[Odelay]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You're no longer arguing hybrid vs current car, you're arguing new vs old. I bought a 15 year old Toyota and drove it for 10 years, then bought a 15 year old Subaru and drove it for 10 years, so I'm pretty familiar with all the tradeoffs btwn new and used. It's great plunking down $800 cash (Toyota) or $2,200 cash (Subaru) and driving away with a car. But as you note, repairs can range up to $2,000 in one year, easily. My extra insurance costs of collision on the Prius are $300/yr more, but then I have collision insurance, which has it's own value. You can't value collision insurance at "0" in any comprehensive financial calculation.

I enjoyed the low up front costs of owning used vehicles, during years when my employment was less than optimal.

I enjoy the relative worry free aspects of driving a new vehicle, during years when my employment situation is much better.

They're really 2 different experiences.

[SarahG]

They're really 2 different experiences.

All I am saying is that to buy a hybrid -strictly- for the mpg benefit, doesn't seem to be logical. There are ways in which buying a hybrid appeals on more than one level, but that would not be what I was talking about earlier.

If you're buying a new car anyway (say you want the warranty to cover repairs as you brought up and your current car's warranty was expiring soon), and wanted to get a car that had both better mpgs and a warranty you liked, then that's better logic than simply going "I want to spend 24 grand to have a car that gets more mpgs than my current car."

[muhmuh]

So on that at least, we seem to agree I think. Its pretty easy to show you don't need to go to a hybrid to get decent mpgs, and the mpgs of the common hybrids on the market are clearly nothing to write home about.

Oh absolutely, that doesnt mean the hybrid concept is to blame. Put a electric motor on any unthrottled modern IC engine and you just might see 3 digit MPG figures.


I mean if a "pile of garbage with wheels on it" can get more mpgs, then you really have to wonder why the hype & cult following. :D

Ever watched the South Park episode on the Prius?
After reading your post i had to watch it again; ironically one of the commercials in it was for some KIA (ugh) SUV.

[ef9hatchman]

I have a Civic Hybrid. Have had it for two years now.The batteries are warrantied for 10 years or 150k miles in MA and some other states, the rest are 8 year/80k.

I drive about 33 miles to work, mostly highway and typically get 45 MPG. I don't drive slow, usually about 75 MPH. And this is on poorly maintained MA highways. For city driving, I seem to get between 37 and 40 MPG. I don't drive slow there either but I also don't do the very common and foolish things that many do, such as accelerating towards a line of cars stopped at a red light only to abruptly hit the brakes to come full stop or alternative between gas and brake until traffic comes up to full speed.

Didn't have a problem with insurance and never heard of anyone else having a problem

As far as buying a hybrid for the sole purpose of saving money, I agree that that is stupid. You should only buy a hybrid if you are already in the market for a new car and like everything the car has. I'm not a big car person but I love my car. I'd still love it even if it weren't a hybrid because it's a good car.

There are used hybrids on autotrader for less than $15k that are only 4 or 5 years old so that is also an option for someone looking for a fuel efficient car.

Warranty on a Battery.Dude thats like saying Here let me throw my cell phone as hard as I can in front of a for example at&t Sales Rep and demanding he/she replaces it free of charge.
Batteries are designed to be used(Parasitic Drain) No such thing as warranty well not from GM I can assure you that.
I have a almost 19 year old car 91 CRX(Teggy Swapped), Not my daily. but it runs nice as hell,when I do drive it. Usually use my gsxr
Then I have a Hibernating GSX eclipse Just waiting on New internals.
Besides that it barely takes me 20 to fill up.From empty

[CORVETTEDUDE]

I'm in the car business(New Cars). Rather than blatantly call anyone that purchased a Hybrid (Gas/Electric) vehicle a moron, I will just say you've made an uninformed and poorly structured decision.

For those of you that purchased strictly because it produces less "greenhouse emmisions"....Go hug a fuckin' tree!

For those that thought you were doing the right thing....YOU'VE BEEN SCREWED!

A. There IS NOT a cost savings( even if you include a tax credit). You will have to(as SarahG related) own the vehicle for an extremely long time to recoup your investment, even if NOTHING goes wrong in the meantime. Here's a hint, the battery technology we presently enjoy, does NOT allow for an 8 PLUS year battery life. Oh yes, they gave you an 8-10 year warranty, that they(the manufacturuer) fully doesn't expect to have to pay on. READ and SCRUTINIZE, EXTENSIVELY, THE WAARANTY AS IT APPLIES TO THE BATTERIES IN THE hYBRID SYSTEM. There is plenty of room for you, the OWNER (and I use that term in a finite manner) to screw up, so as to breech the terms of the warranty(as it pertains to the batteries, and their replacement).

B. As SarahG said, you need to own the vehicle for, in her words 17.5yrs, to recoup your investment. Let's also say you have a 10 year battery replacement warranty, as long as you did everything according to the policies governing said warranty. 3-6 months after your warranty has expired, what do you think will happen....the batteries will shit themselves (it's by design---PEOPLE!!!). Your battery replacement, including parts and labor, will be $9347.85(est,) Mr/Ms Customer, shall we go ahead with the repair? Just exactly what do you think that car/SUV is "WORTH", at that 8.5 to 10.5 year mark. Lets say you drove that 'average' of 12,000 miles each year, that means your vehicle, which requires $9500 in repairs to get it "On the Road", has approximately 102,000 - 126,000 miles on it. Don't take my word for it....go get your own value estimate. But, I'd tell you to sell it on your own, because I don't want it on my lot, I don't give a fuck if it is one of thise Japanese pieces of shit you people are so blindly hooked on!

Trust me people, there is not a viable HYBRID option presently offered by ANY of the manufacturers at present, nor is there one in our near future. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THERE!!! They weigh too much, take up too much space and the biggest issue, they don't last long enough.

You want to reduce "Greenhouse Emmisions", do you part the save the environment and the world....leave a better place for your offspring... RIDE A FRICKIN' BYCICLE...YOU FAT FUCKS!!!

[CORVETTEDUDE]

I'm in the car business(New Cars). Rather than blatantly call anyone that purchased a Hybrid (Gas/Electric) vehicle a moron, I will just say you've made an uninformed and poorly structured decision.

For those of you that purchased strictly because it produces less "greenhouse emmisions"....Go hug a fuckin' tree!

For those that thought you were doing the right thing....YOU'VE BEEN SCREWED!

A. There IS NOT a cost savings( even if you include a tax credit). You will have to(as SarahG related) own the vehicle for an extremely long time to recoup your investment, even if NOTHING goes wrong in the meantime. Here's a hint, the battery technology we presently enjoy, does NOT allow for an 8 PLUS year battery life. Oh yes, they gave you an 8-10 year warranty, that they(the manufacturuer) fully doesn't expect to have to pay on. READ and SCRUTINIZE, EXTENSIVELY, THE WAARANTY AS IT APPLIES TO THE BATTERIES IN THE hYBRID SYSTEM. There is plenty of room for you, the OWNER (and I use that term in a finite manner) to screw up, so as to breech the terms of the warranty(as it pertains to the batteries, and their replacement).

B. As SarahG said, you need to own the vehicle for, in her words 17.5yrs, to recoup your investment. Let's also say you have a 10 year battery replacement warranty, as long as you did everything according to the policies governing said warranty. 3-6 months after your warranty has expired, what do you think will happen....the batteries will shit themselves (it's by design---PEOPLE!!!). Your battery replacement, including parts and labor, will be $9347.85(est,) Mr/Ms Customer, shall we go ahead with the repair? Just exactly what do you think that car/SUV is "WORTH", at that 8.5 to 10.5 year mark. Lets say you drove that 'average' of 12,000 miles each year, that means your vehicle, which requires $9500 in repairs to get it "On the Road", has approximately 102,000 - 126,000 miles on it. Don't take my word for it....go get your own value estimate. But, I'd tell you to sell it on your own, because I don't want it on my lot, I don't give a fuck if it is one of thise Japanese pieces of shit you people are so blindly hooked on!

Trust me people, there is not a viable HYBRID option presently offered by ANY of the manufacturers at present, nor is there one in our near future. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THERE!!! They weigh too much, take up too much space and the biggest issue, they don't last long enough.

You want to reduce "Greenhouse Emmisions", do you part the save the environment and the world....leave a better place for your offspring... RIDE A FRICKIN' BYCICLE...YOU FAT FUCKS!!!

[CORVETTEDUDE]

I'm in the car business(New Cars). Rather than blatantly call anyone that purchased a Hybrid (Gas/Electric) vehicle a moron, I will just say you've made an uninformed and poorly structured decision.

For those of you that purchased strictly because it produces less "greenhouse emmisions"....Go hug a fuckin' tree!

For those that thought you were doing the right thing....YOU'VE BEEN SCREWED!

A. There IS NOT a cost savings( even if you include a tax credit). You will have to(as SarahG related) own the vehicle for an extremely long time to recoup your investment, even if NOTHING goes wrong in the meantime. Here's a hint, the battery technology we presently enjoy, does NOT allow for an 8 PLUS year battery life. Oh yes, they gave you an 8-10 year warranty, that they(the manufacturuer) fully doesn't expect to have to pay on. READ and SCRUTINIZE, EXTENSIVELY, THE WAARANTY AS IT APPLIES TO THE BATTERIES IN THE hYBRID SYSTEM. There is plenty of room for you, the OWNER (and I use that term in a finite manner) to screw up, so as to breech the terms of the warranty(as it pertains to the batteries, and their replacement).

B. As SarahG said, you need to own the vehicle for, in her words 17.5yrs, to recoup your investment. Let's also say you have a 10 year battery replacement warranty, as long as you did everything according to the policies governing said warranty. 3-6 months after your warranty has expired, what do you think will happen....the batteries will shit themselves (it's by design---PEOPLE!!!). Your battery replacement, including parts and labor, will be $9347.85(est,) Mr/Ms Customer, shall we go ahead with the repair? Just exactly what do you think that car/SUV is "WORTH", at that 8.5 to 10.5 year mark. Lets say you drove that 'average' of 12,000 miles each year, that means your vehicle, which requires $9500 in repairs to get it "On the Road", has approximately 102,000 - 126,000 miles on it. Don't take my word for it....go get your own value estimate. But, I'd tell you to sell it on your own, because I don't want it on my lot, I don't give a fuck if it is one of thise Japanese pieces of shit you people are so blindly hooked on!

Trust me people, there is not a viable HYBRID option presently offered by ANY of the manufacturers at present, nor is there one in our near future. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THERE!!! They weigh too much, take up too much space and the biggest issue, they don't last long enough.

You want to reduce "Greenhouse Emmisions", do you part the save the environment and the world....leave a better place for your offspring... RIDE A FRICKIN' BYCICLE...YOU FAT FUCKS!!!

[hondarobot]

I've said it before: Bring back the Zeppelin. According to those old science fiction stories from the 1950's, we're all suppose to flying around in those already.

[ef9hatchman]

I've said it before: Bring back the Zeppelin. According to those old science fiction stories from the 1950's, we're all suppose to flying around in those already. I pick a Delorean lol.

[Willie Escalade]

I drive a Toyota Corolla, and I'm averaging between 29 and 32 miles per gallon, mainly driving from the South Bay to the San Fernando Valley. It uses 87 octane, and has a conventional automatic transmission. Who needs a hybrid??

[muhmuh]

It uses 87 octane, and has a conventional automatic transmission.

oh that reminds me shifting yourself will save you a lot of money
also even though its unintuitive buying the higher octane fuel (usually 98 in europe) can also help save money if the ecu is mdoern enough to make proper use of it

[OEMEnemyNum1]

It uses 87 octane, and has a conventional automatic transmission.

oh that reminds me shifting yourself will save you a lot of money
also even though its unintuitive buying the higher octane fuel (usually 98 in europe) can also help save money if the ecu is mdoern enough to make proper use of it

Those ECM's have limits though. Most wont turn the timing up past a certain position. So even if your fuel is stable enough it wont get the full benefit from 98 octane. 93 is probably about as much as you will see benefit from. I only know this because I've looked at the internals of most ecm's. The closed loop knock sensors work great, but do have limits in the program. Now I'm not saying that cant be worked around.

[OEMEnemyNum1]

I drive a Toyota Corolla, and I'm averaging between 29 and 32 miles per gallon, mainly driving from the South Bay to the San Fernando Valley. It uses 87 octane, and has a conventional automatic transmission. Who needs a hybrid??

my 97 Toyota gets 38 MPG, has no repair costs, and is a wonderful car.

I'll give my beef right now, it's not big oil that causes bad mileage in cars. They were getting killer mileage before the hybrids. CARB and the EPA are the ones causing the problem. They care too much about Nox emmissions to care about mileage. If you would handle large Nox emissions then everything else would go down. COx, Particulate, and Fuel Consumption would dramatically be reduced. The EPA is the main problem here, Cats have taken care of the bad stuff for years and people were still getting bad ass mileage.

[muhmuh]

So even if your fuel is stable enough it wont get the full benefit from 98 octane.

maybe not the full but fifth gear did a test with an impreza sti once (yes i know its not exactly a hypermilers car of choice and the rolling road they used isnt great for doing exact measurments with) and the power kept increasing all the way up to 100 octane fuel


93 is probably about as much as you will see benefit from.

hm here you cant even buy anything lower than 95 anymore

[Odelay]

I'm in the car business(New Cars). Rather than blatantly call anyone that purchased a Hybrid (Gas/Electric) vehicle a moron, I will just say you've made an uninformed and poorly structured decision.

For those of you that purchased strictly because it produces less "greenhouse emmisions"....Go hug a fuckin' tree!

For those that thought you were doing the right thing....YOU'VE BEEN SCREWED!

A. There IS NOT a cost savings( even if you include a tax credit). You will have to(as SarahG related) own the vehicle for an extremely long time to recoup your investment, even if NOTHING goes wrong in the meantime. Here's a hint, the battery technology we presently enjoy, does NOT allow for an 8 PLUS year battery life. Oh yes, they gave you an 8-10 year warranty, that they(the manufacturuer) fully doesn't expect to have to pay on. READ and SCRUTINIZE, EXTENSIVELY, THE WAARANTY AS IT APPLIES TO THE BATTERIES IN THE hYBRID SYSTEM. There is plenty of room for you, the OWNER (and I use that term in a finite manner) to screw up, so as to breech the terms of the warranty(as it pertains to the batteries, and their replacement).

B. As SarahG said, you need to own the vehicle for, in her words 17.5yrs, to recoup your investment. Let's also say you have a 10 year battery replacement warranty, as long as you did everything according to the policies governing said warranty. 3-6 months after your warranty has expired, what do you think will happen....the batteries will shit themselves (it's by design---PEOPLE!!!). Your battery replacement, including parts and labor, will be $9347.85(est,) Mr/Ms Customer, shall we go ahead with the repair? Just exactly what do you think that car/SUV is "WORTH", at that 8.5 to 10.5 year mark. Lets say you drove that 'average' of 12,000 miles each year, that means your vehicle, which requires $9500 in repairs to get it "On the Road", has approximately 102,000 - 126,000 miles on it. Don't take my word for it....go get your own value estimate. But, I'd tell you to sell it on your own, because I don't want it on my lot, I don't give a fuck if it is one of thise Japanese pieces of shit you people are so blindly hooked on!

Trust me people, there is not a viable HYBRID option presently offered by ANY of the manufacturers at present, nor is there one in our near future. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THERE!!! They weigh too much, take up too much space and the biggest issue, they don't last long enough.

You want to reduce "Greenhouse Emmisions", do you part the save the environment and the world....leave a better place for your offspring... RIDE A FRICKIN' BYCICLE...YOU FAT FUCKS!!!

Ha ha ha ha! Whatever, dude! You sure take this shit seriously. But then i guess it's your life so it makes sense.

[Nowhere]

What people don't comprehend is that the best way to reduce foreign oil dependency and protect the environment is to live close to where you work, buy things, run errands, etc.

Driving an 8mpg Lamborghini Murcielago 5 miles a day has a radically lower net carbon emissions and less fuel spent than a 46mpg Prius going the average commuted 33 miles a day.

How people NEVER ADDRESS this simple concept blows my mind.

[Willie Escalade]

What people don't comprehend is that the best way to reduce foreign oil dependency and protect the environment is to live close to where you work, buy things, run errands, etc.
I've tried that. I had to deal with too many assholes with my job, so I go somewhere else where there are less of them.

Plus, with the longer distance I drive, my fuel economy actually increased.

As for errands and such, I do stay local...but when I'm near my job and have to buy something, I do that as well.

[ef9hatchman]

What people don't comprehend is that the best way to reduce foreign oil dependency and protect the environment is to live close to where you work, buy things, run errands, etc.
I've tried that. I had to deal with too many assholes with my job, so I go somewhere else where there are less of them.

Plus, with the longer distance I drive, my fuel economy actually increased.

As for errands and such, I do stay local...but when I'm near my job and have to buy something, I do that as well.
Get your M1 and buy a bike wont worry about gas.
Im not really worried about being cold out. Got a really goood thermal and jacket so I still ride my gsxr everywhere will not in rain.
Buy a bike you will be so glad,no waits on traffic/carpool whenever you want :D at least in california I know you can.I think if I were to drive my car(s) i would waste 3-5 times the amount I use now.Id say once a week I drive my cars.Fuel Economy Bah eff a hybrid.

[partlycloudy]

what do you guys think about the honda clarity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ohorNelr4


:?:

[ef9hatchman]

Very nice design but wouldnt trust it.

[SarahG]

I've said it before: Bring back the Zeppelin. According to those old science fiction stories from the 1950's, we're all suppose to flying around in those already.

Zeppelins would be cool. I seem to recall hearing somewhere that they were originally going to use the roof of the Empire State Building as a Zeppelin dock. It would be really cool to use that building to get on & off zeppelins, definitely would be unforgettable.



also even though its unintuitive buying the higher octane fuel (usually 98 in europe) can also help save money if the ecu is mdoern enough to make proper use of it

Agreed, that's the shitty thing about CA's emission law, you can't replace the ignition system on a car with a newer high tech one (like an MSD DIS) because "since its adjustable, the owner could misadjust it and increase the pollution emissions on the car."

But misadjusted in that sense is no different from having a car that needs a tune up. A carb car is adjustable, I could rich the shit out of a carb car and that's legal... yet a car in CA can't switch to a good ignition system that would 1- increase fuel efficiency, and 2- decrease emissions output.



So even if your fuel is stable enough it wont get the full benefit from 98 octane.

maybe not the full but fifth gear did a test with an impreza sti once (yes i know its not exactly a hypermilers car of choice and the rolling road they used isnt great for doing exact measurments with) and the power kept increasing all the way up to 100 octane fuel


93 is probably about as much as you will see benefit from.

hm here you cant even buy anything lower than 95 anymore

If you live near a race track, the gas stations around here will carry higher than 95, but its usually more expensive by such leaps and bounds that its worth it to just go with the 93 instead.

Switching to LPG is an alternative, LPG fuel is something like 130 octane IIRC.

[muhmuh]

Get your M1 and buy a bike wont worry about gas.

best of all you wont have to worry about retirement either


what do you guys think about the honda clarity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ohorNelr4

unfortunately producing hydrofen is anything but efficient (still mroe efficient than an ic engine but not by much) and the stuff has a tendency to be... spectacular
highly amusing to watch two hydrogen cars crash into each other less amusing if youre in either one


Agreed, that's the shitty thing about CA's emission law, you can't replace the ignition system on a car with a newer high tech one (like an MSD DIS) because "since its adjustable, the owner could misadjust it and increase the pollution emissions on the car."

hm rally for a proper mot test then
here you can change your ecu/injection system do an emissions test and pay less taxes if the result is good enough


If you live near a race track, the gas stations around here will carry higher than 95, but its usually more expensive by such leaps and bounds that its worth it to just go with the 93 instead.

ive read on wiki that us octane numbers a lower by a system that doesnt make sense so the 95 might actually be equivalent or better than the 100 octane you can get from just about any pump here

also do you guys do everything differently just to be annoying? you got the worst traits from the brits (doing everything differently) and us germans (starting world wars all the time)
wed like to think that weve moved past that in the old world so to be annoying all we do nowerdays is make fun of the english inability to score penalties


Switching to LPG is an alternative, LPG fuel is something like 130 octane IIRC.

but its gas which requires a heavy tank has the issue of mixing with oxygen much more easily than any liquid and you cant buy it everywhere
also the conversion is expensive and it has all the same problems pertol and diesel have
its a band aid at best not a solution

[ef9hatchman]

Get your M1 and buy a bike wont worry about gas.

best of all you wont have to worry about retirement either


what do you guys think about the honda clarity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ohorNelr4

unfortunately producing hydrofen is anything but efficient (still mroe efficient than an ic engine but not by much) and the stuff has a tendency to be... spectacular
highly amusing to watch two hydrogen cars crash into each other less amusing if youre in either one


Agreed, that's the shitty thing about CA's emission law, you can't replace the ignition system on a car with a newer high tech one (like an MSD DIS) because "since its adjustable, the owner could misadjust it and increase the pollution emissions on the car."

hm rally for a proper mot test then
here you can change your ecu/injection system do an emissions test and pay less taxes if the result is good enough


If you live near a race track, the gas stations around here will carry higher than 95, but its usually more expensive by such leaps and bounds that its worth it to just go with the 93 instead.

ive read on wiki that us octane numbers a lower by a system that doesnt make sense so the 95 might actually be equivalent or better than the 100 octane you can get from just about any pump here

also do you guys do everything differently just to be annoying? you got the worst traits from the brits (doing everything differently) and us germans (starting world wars all the time)
wed like to think that weve moved past that in the old world so to be annoying all we do nowerdays is make fun of the english inability to score penalties


Switching to LPG is an alternative, LPG fuel is something like 130 octane IIRC.

but its gas which requires a heavy tank has the issue of mixing with oxygen much more easily than any liquid and you cant buy it everywhere
also the conversion is expensive and it has all the same problems pertol and diesel have
its a band aid at best not a solution

So many nubs act like they know what they are talking about.

SarahG EO stickers=MSD is ok.But it must be creat/designed for that specific motor/car. EO sticker slaps a CHP in the face FYI.

Changing a PCM.aka.ECU.aka.ECM will not help you pass smog it will get you a nice Fuck you and have a nice day we use machines that make sure your computer is talking correctly to machine. And no smog tech will put there license up for a friend just a dumbass move.
your El Experto Mickey.
I drive a crx GSRblock/b16 head turbod.Not illegal since my buddy the REF signed it off. :D a street one.I have Greddys Turbo Yes they are EO. I only do Legit legal parts I know turbo isnt biggest they make but Its legal compared to a hks which failed too many times for EO recognition.
I mean the turbos are beast but. FAILAGE

And the guy who talks about octane if your car is designed to run 87 use 87 or 89 not going to help you one fucking bit if you use a higher octane unless your turboed which most turbo vehicles run 91 already.
Your just wasting your money. Trust me.
Sorry if im being a Jackass but seriously some of you guys dont know a bit of smog/fuel/Executive Orders. etc....

[muhmuh]

So many nubs act like they know what they are talking about.

SarahG EO stickers=MSD is ok.But it must be creat/designed for that specific motor/car. EO sticker slaps a CHP in the face FYI.

Changing a PCM.aka.ECU.aka.ECM will not help you pass smog it will get you a nice Fuck you and have a nice day we use machines that make sure your computer is talking correctly to machine. And no smog tech will put there license up for a friend just a dumbass move.
your El Experto Mickey.
I drive a crx GSRblock/b16 head turbod.Not illegal since my buddy the REF signed it off. :D a street one.I have Greddys Turbo Yes they are EO. I only do Legit legal parts I know turbo isnt biggest they make but Its legal compared to a hks which failed too many times for EO recognition.
I mean the turbos are beast but. FAILAGE

And the guy who talks about octane if your car is designed to run 87 use 87 or 89 not going to help you one fucking bit if you use a higher octane unless your turboed which most turbo vehicles run 91 already.
Your just wasting your money. Trust me.
Sorry if im being a Jackass but seriously some of you guys dont know a bit of smog/fuel/Executive Orders. etc....

thats just gibberish mixed with nonsense mixed with lack of knowledge on modern ecus with knock sensors

[ef9hatchman]

So many nubs act like they know what they are talking about.

SarahG EO stickers=MSD is ok.But it must be creat/designed for that specific motor/car. EO sticker slaps a CHP in the face FYI.

Changing a PCM.aka.ECU.aka.ECM will not help you pass smog it will get you a nice Fuck you and have a nice day we use machines that make sure your computer is talking correctly to machine. And no smog tech will put there license up for a friend just a dumbass move.
your El Experto Mickey.
I drive a crx GSRblock/b16 head turbod.Not illegal since my buddy the REF signed it off. :D a street one.I have Greddys Turbo Yes they are EO. I only do Legit legal parts I know turbo isnt biggest they make but Its legal compared to a hks which failed too many times for EO recognition.
I mean the turbos are beast but. FAILAGE

And the guy who talks about octane if your car is designed to run 87 use 87 or 89 not going to help you one fucking bit if you use a higher octane unless your turboed which most turbo vehicles run 91 already.
Your just wasting your money. Trust me.
Sorry if im being a Jackass but seriously some of you guys dont know a bit of smog/fuel/Executive Orders. etc....

thats just gibberish mixed with nonsense mixed with lack of knowledge on modern ecus with knock sensors
Slap yourself..that was a horrible comeback.

Anything to modify it from stock.Either get a marking. Modified,missing,not applicable,or Disconnected.Emissions controls.
Chipping a ecu is illegal all in its own. Especially if you get rid of knock sensor. Designed due to laws and regulations.

[SarahG]

hm rally for a proper mot test then
here you can change your ecu/injection system do an emissions test and pay less taxes if the result is good enough

I would love for a day when all it goes by the #'s. Having an "anything goes as long as its under __ppm of these chemicals" policy would be awesome.


also do you guys do everything differently just to be annoying? you got the worst traits from the brits (doing everything differently) and us germans (starting world wars all the time)

You think that's bad, you should see the measurement systems we use in the military. As if English was bad enough (compared to metric), in the military they will often use a randomly picked hybrid of English AND metric depending on the situation. I.e. range in meters, altitude in feet.

A lot of the cars the Big Three have made are similar, I've seen a lot of cars where bolts are randomly metric or english, without any apparent reason as to why.

[SarahG]

hm rally for a proper mot test then
here you can change your ecu/injection system do an emissions test and pay less taxes if the result is good enough

I would love for a day when all it goes by the #'s. Having an "anything goes as long as its under __ppm of these chemicals" policy would be awesome.


also do you guys do everything differently just to be annoying? you got the worst traits from the brits (doing everything differently) and us germans (starting world wars all the time)

You think that's bad, you should see the measurement systems we use in the military. As if English was bad enough (compared to metric), in the military they will often use a randomly picked hybrid of English AND metric depending on the situation. I.e. range in meters, altitude in feet.

A lot of the cars the Big Three have made are similar, I've seen a lot of cars where bolts are randomly metric or english, without any apparent reason as to why.

[SarahG]

Get your M1 and buy a bike wont worry about gas.

best of all you wont have to worry about retirement either


what do you guys think about the honda clarity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ohorNelr4

unfortunately producing hydrofen is anything but efficient (still mroe efficient than an ic engine but not by much) and the stuff has a tendency to be... spectacular
highly amusing to watch two hydrogen cars crash into each other less amusing if youre in either one


Agreed, that's the shitty thing about CA's emission law, you can't replace the ignition system on a car with a newer high tech one (like an MSD DIS) because "since its adjustable, the owner could misadjust it and increase the pollution emissions on the car."

hm rally for a proper mot test then
here you can change your ecu/injection system do an emissions test and pay less taxes if the result is good enough


If you live near a race track, the gas stations around here will carry higher than 95, but its usually more expensive by such leaps and bounds that its worth it to just go with the 93 instead.

ive read on wiki that us octane numbers a lower by a system that doesnt make sense so the 95 might actually be equivalent or better than the 100 octane you can get from just about any pump here

also do you guys do everything differently just to be annoying? you got the worst traits from the brits (doing everything differently) and us germans (starting world wars all the time)
wed like to think that weve moved past that in the old world so to be annoying all we do nowerdays is make fun of the english inability to score penalties


Switching to LPG is an alternative, LPG fuel is something like 130 octane IIRC.

but its gas which requires a heavy tank has the issue of mixing with oxygen much more easily than any liquid and you cant buy it everywhere
also the conversion is expensive and it has all the same problems pertol and diesel have
its a band aid at best not a solution

So many nubs act like they know what they are talking about.

SarahG EO stickers=MSD is ok.But it must be creat/designed for that specific motor/car. EO sticker slaps a CHP in the face FYI.

Changing a PCM.aka.ECU.aka.ECM will not help you pass smog it will get you a nice Fuck you and have a nice day we use machines that make sure your computer is talking correctly to machine. And no smog tech will put there license up for a friend just a dumbass move.
your El Experto Mickey.
I drive a crx GSRblock/b16 head turbod.Not illegal since my buddy the REF signed it off. :D a street one.I have Greddys Turbo Yes they are EO. I only do Legit legal parts I know turbo isnt biggest they make but Its legal compared to a hks which failed too many times for EO recognition.
I mean the turbos are beast but. FAILAGE

And the guy who talks about octane if your car is designed to run 87 use 87 or 89 not going to help you one fucking bit if you use a higher octane unless your turboed which most turbo vehicles run 91 already.
Your just wasting your money. Trust me.
Sorry if im being a Jackass but seriously some of you guys dont know a bit of smog/fuel/Executive Orders. etc....

lols, muhmuh you can't read that? Makes sense to me.

I'll start at the top: SarahG EO stickers=MSD is ok.But it must be creat/designed for that specific motor/car. EO sticker slaps a CHP in the face FYI.

He's saying that to use an adjustable EFI/DIS system on a car, to be street legal it has to be something created or designed for that particular engine of that particular model & model year. Again it comes down to this fear it could be "misadjusted." If it is made for the car, anyone should be able to get it to work right without too much effort.

That's good and easy if you're working with something every idiot owns like a Chevy 350, but MOST engines do not have that degree of an aftermarket following. You're not going to find an aftermarket EFI or DIS system for a specific motor/car if it is an uncommonly restored one. I highly doubt you'd be able to find an EFI system designed specifically for the Olds 350 that would ALSO be C.A.R.B. legal. To say nothing of some of the old inline 6 engines, 4 cylinders etc.

As to: Changing a PCM.aka.ECU.aka.ECM will not help you pass smog it will get you a nice Fuck you and have a nice day we use machines that make sure your computer is talking correctly to machine.

Ok muhmuh, what he's saying here is that in emissions controlled states like (but not just) california, part of the emissions test is hooking up to the STOCK computer to see what error codes it lists. Therego if you have a car that came from the factory with OBD2, you'll never be able to replace the EFI system with something better (because you NEED that stock system to pass the emissions test). Moral of the story, if you want a custom car never buy something made after 1994, or you'll be stuck with the crappy stock EFI system. Sure, you can re-chip them, but there comes a point where aftermarket is better and there is no way to go aftermarket and still be emissions-legal (like if your car's computer controls the DIS, you'll never be able to go removing it for a better one like a MSD DIS).

[DL_NL]

Back to hybrids.

Real-world experience with those cars suggests that the batteries last no more than 6 years. Cost of replacement will by that time be around half the residual value of the car.

Now how many owners will really replace the batteries and how many will continue to run the car on its underpowered petrol engine, because they bought it just for the outside world and/or the tax breaks in the first place?

Also, here in Holland most of the hybrids I see are followed by an exhaust gas trail, ergo not running on the batteries but on aforementioned underpowered engine hauling a too-heavy car. I guess they're fine if you do long-distance low speed runs but in European real-world traffic they're useless as hybrids.

Take a look at VW's current generation of Bluemotion cars. Those are really advanced and will actually work in traffic, not just in a controlled environment. Hell, even their previous-gen Lupo 3L did an amazing job in this respect.

[OEMEnemyNum1]

I've retuned every car that I've owned the last few years. I'm glad we don't get checked here where I live.

Even if we did, I would just retune the engine back to factory before I went in. No big deal. Plus you can make almost all the same changes to a stock ecm that you can with an aftermarket one.

I do this with diesels all the time.

[muhmuh]

I would love for a day when all it goes by the #'s. Having an "anything goes as long as its under __ppm of these chemicals" policy would be awesome.

unfortunately such a system comes at a cost and you wont be able to get a stamp on some of the more extreme mods anymore
getting approval for a caterham is rather hard and expensive from what ive heard (sigh) and trying to get a policeman to understand that the wing on the back of your 190e evo2 is factory standard isnt much fun either ive been told


I.e. range in meters, altitude in feet.

ah yes aviation units are great fun inch Hg being my favourite


A lot of the cars the Big Three have made are similar, I've seen a lot of cars where bolts are randomly metric or english, without any apparent reason as to why.

jesus last time ive seen a german car being taken apart the whole job could be done with a single nut
but then again its german and were boring that way


lols, muhmuh you can't read that? Makes sense to me.

in my defense i stopped trying when i read failage
also most seems to be a random collection of acronyms relating to us regulations which i dont really care about


I guess they're fine if you do long-distance low speed runs but in European real-world traffic they're useless as hybrids.

dont they have a range of 40odd km on battery power? the technology as such should be far better suited for the 50m between red lights european inner city driving one does every morning
in those kind of circumstances a well built electric car with an efficient regenrative braking system should use almost no energy at all

[ef9hatchman]

trying to get a policeman to understand that the wing on the back of your 190e evo2 is factory standard isnt much fun either ive been told


A cop cannot ref ticket Exterior.
Fix it ticket yes.Such as headlight(HIDS without halo's) I have but dont care. Cops friends.
Any exterior Major pieces such as headlight assembly,bumper(s),Hood,Door(s) trunk/hatch,windows(tint). for the safety of other drivers and ones own safety.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

I'm in the car business(New Cars). Rather than blatantly call anyone that purchased a Hybrid (Gas/Electric) vehicle a moron, I will just say you've made an uninformed and poorly structured decision.

For those of you that purchased strictly because it produces less "greenhouse emmisions"....Go hug a fuckin' tree!

For those that thought you were doing the right thing....YOU'VE BEEN SCREWED!

A. There IS NOT a cost savings( even if you include a tax credit). You will have to(as SarahG related) own the vehicle for an extremely long time to recoup your investment, even if NOTHING goes wrong in the meantime. Here's a hint, the battery technology we presently enjoy, does NOT allow for an 8 PLUS year battery life. Oh yes, they gave you an 8-10 year warranty, that they(the manufacturuer) fully doesn't expect to have to pay on. READ and SCRUTINIZE, EXTENSIVELY, THE WAARANTY AS IT APPLIES TO THE BATTERIES IN THE hYBRID SYSTEM. There is plenty of room for you, the OWNER (and I use that term in a finite manner) to screw up, so as to breech the terms of the warranty(as it pertains to the batteries, and their replacement).

B. As SarahG said, you need to own the vehicle for, in her words 17.5yrs, to recoup your investment. Let's also say you have a 10 year battery replacement warranty, as long as you did everything according to the policies governing said warranty. 3-6 months after your warranty has expired, what do you think will happen....the batteries will shit themselves (it's by design---PEOPLE!!!). Your battery replacement, including parts and labor, will be $9347.85(est,) Mr/Ms Customer, shall we go ahead with the repair? Just exactly what do you think that car/SUV is "WORTH", at that 8.5 to 10.5 year mark. Lets say you drove that 'average' of 12,000 miles each year, that means your vehicle, which requires $9500 in repairs to get it "On the Road", has approximately 102,000 - 126,000 miles on it. Don't take my word for it....go get your own value estimate. But, I'd tell you to sell it on your own, because I don't want it on my lot, I don't give a fuck if it is one of thise Japanese pieces of shit you people are so blindly hooked on!

Trust me people, there is not a viable HYBRID option presently offered by ANY of the manufacturers at present, nor is there one in our near future. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THERE!!! They weigh too much, take up too much space and the biggest issue, they don't last long enough.

You want to reduce "Greenhouse Emmisions", do you part the save the environment and the world....leave a better place for your offspring... RIDE A FRICKIN' BYCICLE...YOU FAT FUCKS!!!

Ha ha ha ha! Whatever, dude! You sure take this shit seriously. But then i guess it's your life so it makes sense.

Odelay, you haven't even offered a solution. You havin' trouble being a constructive contributor??? Let's hear your solution to the problem ... waiting...

[muhmuh]

A cop cannot ref ticket Exterior.
Fix it ticket yes.Such as headlight(HIDS without halo's) I have but dont care. Cops friends.
Any exterior Major pieces such as headlight assembly,bumper(s),Hood,Door(s) trunk/hatch,windows(tint). for the safety of other drivers and ones own safety.


could you at least try to write complete sentences? you know spo and all that

also yes where i live they can get you into a whole load of trouble starting with taking your car off the road permanently
eventually you might end up with a large fine and without a licence

[DL_NL]

dont they have a range of 40odd km on battery power? the technology as such should be far better suited for the 50m between red lights european inner city driving one does every morning
in those kind of circumstances a well built electric car with an efficient regenrative braking system should use almost no energy at all
When there's enough room between traffic lights to recharge the batteries, but there isn't. In fact, most Prii I see here in the city drive on the engine as well, it's especially noticeable now it's colder and you can see the vapour trail.