Name and Gender Change

[juliana_dominguez]

hey all! it's been a while since i posted. so well, this friday i will be having my court order date for my name and gender change, this is my first time to be in front of a judge, I am excited that i am getting my new name and my gender changed to a Female, so that i can have a new name and gender on legal documents such as drivers license, ID, passport, etc. I am happy that i am here in American wherein being a transsexual I have rights to change my name and my gender legally unlike from where i was born and grew up, Philippines, wherein we dont have rights like that. I am a bit worried of the questions that the judge might ask me. I heard some cases that they have been rejected because of lack of proof that they had sexual reassignment surgery, Any input from the other girls here? Wish me luck.

mwahs
Juliana :D

[AmyDaly]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

[juliana_dominguez]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

[melissacarter]

hey all! it's been a while since i posted. so well, this friday i will be having my court order date for my name and gender change, this is my first time to be in front of a judge, I am excited that i am getting my new name and my gender changed to a Female, so that i can have a new name and gender on legal documents such as drivers license, ID, passport, etc. I am happy that i am here in American wherein being a transsexual I have rights to change my name and my gender legally unlike from where i was born and grew up, Philippines, wherein we dont have rights like that. I am a bit worried of the questions that the judge might ask me. I heard some cases that they have been rejected because of lack of proof that they had sexual reassignment surgery, Any input from the other girls here? Wish me luck.

mwahs
Juliana :D

Juliana:

Not sure what state you're in but in NJ I was not required to appear in court for my name change. The real work happens after the judgment. Lots of paperwork. Gender change is not addressed in court but on an indivuidual basis with separate agencies, whether state or federal. A letter from your surgeon certifying GRS, the place and date to which the surgery occured is the key to gender change. If you have a well-crafted letter, stating "feminization surgery" AKA FFS but no GRS, you can in some cases get the gender change.

I like your signature, the songs are good.

[juliana_dominguez]

hey all! it's been a while since i posted. so well, this friday i will be having my court order date for my name and gender change, this is my first time to be in front of a judge, I am excited that i am getting my new name and my gender changed to a Female, so that i can have a new name and gender on legal documents such as drivers license, ID, passport, etc. I am happy that i am here in American wherein being a transsexual I have rights to change my name and my gender legally unlike from where i was born and grew up, Philippines, wherein we dont have rights like that. I am a bit worried of the questions that the judge might ask me. I heard some cases that they have been rejected because of lack of proof that they had sexual reassignment surgery, Any input from the other girls here? Wish me luck.

mwahs
Juliana :D

Juliana:

Not sure what state you're in but in NJ I was not required to appear in court for my name change. The real work happens after the judgment. Lots of paperwork. Gender change is not addressed in court but on an indivuidual basis with separate agencies, whether state or federal. A letter from your surgeon certifying GRS, the place and date to which the surgery occured is the key to gender change. If you have a well-crafted letter, stating "feminization surgery" AKA FFS but no GRS, you can in some cases get the gender change.

I like your signature, the songs are good.

well on my letter it says "changes her sex characteristics from male to female", yea i know it varies per state, i have researched how it happens here in California. They said that being passable when appearing in front of the judge helps too...

[AmyDaly]

In CA, you will have to goto in front of the judge for name and gender change.

And it sounds like you should be fine for the gender change.

I am not sure on the court location that you have to use, I thought it could be any california court.

I do know that you can goto any DMV and SS Office though. I just went to the Hollywood one to avoid any questions or confusion. I was in and out in like 10 minutes with my new paper ID.

[MrsKellyPierce]

GOOD LUCK!!

[Justawannabe]

Indeed, good luck.

Both my ex's sailed through the court part... DMV was more of a stickler in one case. Wanted a letter, but you have one that covers it, as far as I can tell.

Sean

[Aurora]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

I had my name changed in Orange County while pre-op in 2005.

I didn't really have to appear in front of a judge the way you are thinking; basically I went to court and sat in a room with about 50 other people who were getting name changes done. There were 3 women at the front of the room who I do not believe they were judges, but I could be wrong. I think they were just clerks.

They just called names out and handed out the approved name change paper work, then I got to leave. I did not have to say anything.

[juliana_dominguez]

In CA, you will have to goto in front of the judge for name and gender change.

And it sounds like you should be fine for the gender change.

I am not sure on the court location that you have to use, I thought it could be any california court.

I do know that you can goto any DMV and SS Office though. I just went to the Hollywood one to avoid any questions or confusion. I was in and out in like 10 minutes with my new paper ID.

yea i know that's something new, that you have to be in front of a judge on a name and gender change. im sure it'll be fine! im excited. finally.

[juliana_dominguez]

GOOD LUCK!!

thanks kelly

[juliana_dominguez]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

I had my name changed in Orange County while pre-op in 2005.

I didn't really have to appear in front of a judge the way you are thinking; basically I went to court and sat in a room with about 50 other people who were getting name changes done. There were 3 women at the front of the room who I do not believe they were judges, but I could be wrong. I think they were just clerks.

They just called names out and handed out the approved name change paper work, then I got to leave. I did not have to say anything.

that was in 2005 tho. i know they have a new procedure for a name and gender change. but anyhow, thanks, i'm excited on getting my new legal name and gender

[Ts CinthyaNY]

Congratulations on that ...! Just be yourself your truth will prevail girl. you'll see it.

[xact]

Nice to hear from you, Juliana!
You're absolutely radiant! Good luck and best wishes!

[SarahG]

California is really easy for it from everything I've read.

They might be the only state that will change your legal sex status (as far as the state is concerned) for preops.

Like texas will let preops have a female DL, but as far as Texas law goes (see littleton case) your blood determines your legal sex status, so your BC & marriage rights will all be defined based on your chromosomes.

melissacarter is correct about federal agencies being different. A preop that CA has said to be female legally, won't be in the eyes of the feds (as far as SSA and passports go) until after SRS.

The reason why the courts handle legal sex status changes in CA, is because CA has a fairly vague definition of legal sex status, and so if you lay out enough evidence to support your claim, you can get a judge to sign off on you being legally female (in the eyes of CA) while preop. Other states only care about the SRS surgeon's documentation- which is what allows other states to handle it without court hearings (all you have to do is show them whatever documentation they ask for).

As far as giving a reason for your name change request, you don't even have to bring up trans stuff if you don't want to. In most (all?) states, simply saying "this is the name I want to have" is as good a justification as any. Almost every time I have heard of a judge thinking otherwise, his objections ended up being overturned on appeal. But, if you've had SRS, then it should be a real no brainer for the court (and an even easier one if you're unmarried and without children).

[juliana_dominguez]

thanks cinthya, xact, leora (how are you girl?) and sarah

yea, also over here in california, i get to have a new birth certificate which i think is really cool.

[melissacarter]

melissacarter is correct about federal agencies being different. A preop that CA has said to be female legally, won't be in the eyes of the feds (as far as SSA and passports go) until after SRS.

With respect Sarah you keep saying this but I beg to differ. I just had my social security ammended to female gender on a federal level. This was accomplished with one of those "deceptive" doctor's letter stating I had "feminization" surgery. Of course presenting well, being well mannered and passing (dare I say) help.

They did not ask me to drop my drawers.

[SarahG]

melissacarter is correct about federal agencies being different. A preop that CA has said to be female legally, won't be in the eyes of the feds (as far as SSA and passports go) until after SRS.

With respect Sarah you keep saying this but I beg to differ. I just had my social security ammended to female gender on a federal level. This was accomplished with one of those "deceptive" doctor's letter stating I had "feminization" surgery. Of course presenting well, being well mannered and passing (dare I say) help.

They did not ask me to drop my drawers.

LOL, it's not like they're the TSA, they won't actually make you show it to check. (that's sarcasm, I am not implying the TSA makes girls undress to the point of being nude, but with their new scanning systems they don't need to (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMMXO_GmWw0)).

[marissaazts]

congrats
in arizona the judge just asked why i wanted to change my name and if i was doing it to avoid any debts ......... i said i'm transgender and nope and he said "congrats marissa and aproved"

[marissaazts]

double post
seems like this site is messing up a lot lately

[Shining Star]

Federal government by and large will go with what gender is listed on one's BC. Problems can arise if one was already issued a passport or SS# say, under a male name and gender and are asking to have it changed, or cannot provide a certified BC listing "female" as gender. Then you have to provide certified copies of the surgical record, etc (for a passport), and what ever other documents various agencies request.

While having a passport that states "female" even when pre-op can be seen as the holy grail, remember things have changed in this post 9/11 world, especially regarding things such as air travel.

The TSA is moving more towards "X-ray" body scanners that basically can see one "nude", and in such detail private parts (or absence thereof) can be made out. Now am not saying all TSA agents will make a stink if they think a "man" has a passport that says female, but legally they do have the right to make certian the passport matches the person.

[melissacarter]

The TSA is moving more towards "X-ray" body scanners that basically can see one "nude", and in such detail private parts (or absence thereof) can be made out.

good then they can see my tits ass and hips along with my dick

[blckhaze]

Good luck Jules.



And we still hate your hubby.

[SarahG]

melissacarter is correct about federal agencies being different. A preop that CA has said to be female legally, won't be in the eyes of the feds (as far as SSA and passports go) until after SRS.

With respect Sarah you keep saying this but I beg to differ. I just had my social security ammended to female gender on a federal level. This was accomplished with one of those "deceptive" doctor's letter stating I had "feminization" surgery. Of course presenting well, being well mannered and passing (dare I say) help.

They did not ask me to drop my drawers.

To add some clarity to the subject, I did some googling today and the policies of the SSA & Homeland Security, when dealing with trans people- are not on either of their websites.

However, I did find a 2007 page from the NCFTE (http://www.nctequality.org/Issues/Federal_Documents.html) that states the following:

For Social Security:



Gender Change

To change your name in the Social Security Administration (SSA) records, provide the following at your local SSA office. All documents need to be originals or certified copies by the issuing agency. You can find the nearest SSA office at the Social Security website.

1. A completed Form SS-5 “Application For A Social Security Card.”
2. Proof of identity. One or more identity documents in your new legal name, such as, a driver license, passport, state-issued ID, etc. These documents must show your current legal name.
3. A letter from the surgeon or attending physician verifying sex change surgery has been completed. This letter must clearly identify you as the person changing their gender marker.
4. If you are a U.S. citizen and have not previously established citizenship with SSA, you will need to present a birth certificate, U.S. passport, or other proof of citizenship. Note: your birth certificate or other document establishing citizenship does not need to show your current name or gender. However, you will need to show proof that you are the same person, such as with a court order for legal name change.
5. If you are a non-citizen, you will need to show documents proving your immigration status and work eligibility, such as, Form I-551, I-94 with unexpired foreign passport, and/or work permit card (I-766 or I-688B). Because there are many types and combinations of qualifying documents for non-citizens, you should call SSA to confirm that your documents qualify.


For Passports:



Gender Change

You must submit:

1. Evidence of citizenship and proof of identity (for example, a driver's license or birth certificate).
2. A photo that is a good likeness of current appearance.
3. A fee of $85 to have a new passport issued.
4. Medical documentation stating that you have had or are planning on having surgery.

For Post Op transpeople, this documentation consists of a letter from a surgeon or hospital that performed surgery, a detailed statement from a medical surgeon regarding the surgery and name change evidence, if applicable (for example, a certified copy of a court document).

For Pre Op transpeople, this documentation consists of a detailed statement from a surgeon with whom you have plans to undergo surgery. This statement must outline the plans for your surgery. If you are traveling to undergo it, the passport agency will issue a temporary passport valid for one year.

All of this information should be mailed to the following address:
Charleston Passport Center
Attention: Amendments
1269 Holland Street
Charleston, SC 29405

There is a tendency for the State Department to “endorse” or simply “stamp over” the previous gender marker on a passport. The stamp states that a change of sex has taken place on a particular date. NCTE has been told that this happens if the passport is valid for a few more years. The Agency does not like to reissue passports so they simply use the stamp. The National Passport Information Center suggests that to get around this, you should start over completely by requesting a new passport.


That said basically:

For SSA you need to be postop for them to change the sex status on file. This is usually not a problem for most people however, since social security cards do not and have not listed sex status on them. Both my original SSN (issued in the 80s) and my current one (after I changed my name) do not list anything other than my legal name, and my SSN. That's it. So you could show a SS card to an employer and not out yourself. BUT, there is always the risk that the SSA will out you (the Bush Admin did this for a couple years- basically the SSA computers put on a filter so any form the employer sends in listing you as female, when the SSA lists you as male, will automatically send your employer a letter saying "please correct your letters, this person is really male"). I don't consider this to be a likely concern (especially with a democrat in the office), and even when Bush did it- it was done intermittently (not everyone got outted, but a lot did).

For a passport you can get a female passport when preop -BUT- it requires telling the feds that you have a specific surgeon who will be performing SRS, and roughly when that will happen. The passport they issue you is only good for a year, because it is TEMPORARY. If you're not planning on SRS anytime soon, you do not qualify... and the letter you send the feds to show "you intend to get srs" must be written by the surgeon you have in mind- simply saying "I plan to get SRS" isn't enough, it's not even enough if your shrink/therapist writes you a letter. I suppose if you could find a surgeon to write you a letter every year, you'll have no problems using temp passports indefinitely... assuming they never get wise to it.

I do have to wonder about the SSA however. The policy is not online, at least not on their website or any other federal gov website. If it is as hard for their employees to find the policy as it is for people googling for it online, my guess is that it would be common for SSA employees to guestimate on what is needed for a SSA gender change. When I got my new DL (after my name change), the clerk at the DMV thought you have to be postop to get a DL with a female name :roll: I had to wait for a half an hour as she called the national office, and then the judge who approved my name change petition (thankfully he was at the court at the time to explain yes, i really can have a DL under my legal name ). :roll: I would imagine it would be common for bureaucrats at the SSA, especially if they haven't been explicitly told otherwise, to ask for full surgery notes when a simple letter will do. In any case, it is pretty clear both agencies are asking for you to be POSTOP if you want perniment (not temporary) documentation.

[the_corner]

The TSA is moving more towards "X-ray" body scanners that basically can see one "nude", and in such detail private parts (or absence thereof) can be made out. Now am not saying all TSA agents will make a stink if they think a "man" has a passport that says female, but legally they do have the right to make certian the passport matches the person.

You have the right to refuse the 3d X-ray. If you refuse the X-ray, an agent will search through your body using the standard method, with the hands. The X-ray is supposedly faster.... and no, you will not be sent to a private room for a cavity search.

[melissacarter]

melissacarter is correct about federal agencies being different. A preop that CA has said to be female legally, won't be in the eyes of the feds (as far as SSA and passports go) until after SRS.

With respect Sarah you keep saying this but I beg to differ. I just had my social security ammended to female gender on a federal level. This was accomplished with one of those "deceptive" doctor's letter stating I had "feminization" surgery. Of course presenting well, being well mannered and passing (dare I say) help.

They did not ask me to drop my drawers.

To add some clarity to the subject, I did some googling today and the policies of the SSA & Homeland Security, when dealing with trans people- are not on either of their websites.

However, I did find a 2007 page from the NCFTE (http://www.nctequality.org/Issues/Federal_Documents.html) that states the following:

For Social Security:



Gender Change

To change your name in the Social Security Administration (SSA) records, provide the following at your local SSA office. All documents need to be originals or certified copies by the issuing agency. You can find the nearest SSA office at the Social Security website.

1. A completed Form SS-5 “Application For A Social Security Card.”
2. Proof of identity. One or more identity documents in your new legal name, such as, a driver license, passport, state-issued ID, etc. These documents must show your current legal name.
3. A letter from the surgeon or attending physician verifying sex change surgery has been completed. This letter must clearly identify you as the person changing their gender marker.
4. If you are a U.S. citizen and have not previously established citizenship with SSA, you will need to present a birth certificate, U.S. passport, or other proof of citizenship. Note: your birth certificate or other document establishing citizenship does not need to show your current name or gender. However, you will need to show proof that you are the same person, such as with a court order for legal name change.
5. If you are a non-citizen, you will need to show documents proving your immigration status and work eligibility, such as, Form I-551, I-94 with unexpired foreign passport, and/or work permit card (I-766 or I-688B). Because there are many types and combinations of qualifying documents for non-citizens, you should call SSA to confirm that your documents qualify.


For Passports:



Gender Change

You must submit:

1. Evidence of citizenship and proof of identity (for example, a driver's license or birth certificate).
2. A photo that is a good likeness of current appearance.
3. A fee of $85 to have a new passport issued.
4. Medical documentation stating that you have had or are planning on having surgery.

For Post Op transpeople, this documentation consists of a letter from a surgeon or hospital that performed surgery, a detailed statement from a medical surgeon regarding the surgery and name change evidence, if applicable (for example, a certified copy of a court document).

For Pre Op transpeople, this documentation consists of a detailed statement from a surgeon with whom you have plans to undergo surgery. This statement must outline the plans for your surgery. If you are traveling to undergo it, the passport agency will issue a temporary passport valid for one year.

All of this information should be mailed to the following address:
Charleston Passport Center
Attention: Amendments
1269 Holland Street
Charleston, SC 29405

There is a tendency for the State Department to “endorse” or simply “stamp over” the previous gender marker on a passport. The stamp states that a change of sex has taken place on a particular date. NCTE has been told that this happens if the passport is valid for a few more years. The Agency does not like to reissue passports so they simply use the stamp. The National Passport Information Center suggests that to get around this, you should start over completely by requesting a new passport.


That said basically:

For SSA you need to be postop for them to change the sex status on file. This is usually not a problem for most people however, since social security cards do not and have not listed sex status on them. Both my original SSN (issued in the 80s) and my current one (after I changed my name) do not list anything other than my legal name, and my SSN. That's it. So you could show a SS card to an employer and not out yourself. BUT, there is always the risk that the SSA will out you (the Bush Admin did this for a couple years- basically the SSA computers put on a filter so any form the employer sends in listing you as female, when the SSA lists you as male, will automatically send your employer a letter saying "please correct your letters, this person is really male"). I don't consider this to be a likely concern (especially with a democrat in the office), and even when Bush did it- it was done intermittently (not everyone got outted, but a lot did).

For a passport you can get a female passport when preop -BUT- it requires telling the feds that you have a specific surgeon who will be performing SRS, and roughly when that will happen. The passport they issue you is only good for a year, because it is TEMPORARY. If you're not planning on SRS anytime soon, you do not qualify... and the letter you send the feds to show "you intend to get srs" must be written by the surgeon you have in mind- simply saying "I plan to get SRS" isn't enough, it's not even enough if your shrink/therapist writes you a letter. I suppose if you could find a surgeon to write you a letter every year, you'll have no problems using temp passports indefinitely... assuming they never get wise to it.

I do have to wonder about the SSA however. The policy is not online, at least not on their website or any other federal gov website. If it is as hard for their employees to find the policy as it is for people googling for it online, my guess is that it would be common for SSA employees to guestimate on what is needed for a SSA gender change. When I got my new DL (after my name change), the clerk at the DMV thought you have to be postop to get a DL with a female name :roll: I had to wait for a half an hour as she called the national office, and then the judge who approved my name change petition (thankfully he was at the court at the time to explain yes, i really can have a DL under my legal name ). :roll: I would imagine it would be common for bureaucrats at the SSA, especially if they haven't been explicitly told otherwise, to ask for full surgery notes when a simple letter will do. In any case, it is pretty clear both agencies are asking for you to be POSTOP if you want perniment (not temporary) documentation.

Wow Sarah that is an awesome piece of research!

This information is so important I'm printing it out for my name/gender change file (all that is left for me now is passport and birth certificate). Thank you.

[bobjones17]

Good luck! Hope all goes well!!

[T Oracle]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

Obviously, I cannot say whether you have or have not had SRS. I can only report that you, personally, have reported as to telling 'a white lie' as to having SRS when you had not.

And, on the question of your marriage, I personally posted a thread in www.tgirltalk.com/forums , about your realtionship with a member of tgirltalk which was 100% supportive of you.

I hope what you are doing is finding a way to use the California court in a way that has been denied in Manila.

You will know about Rommel Silverio, Veronica Deposy. Both totally fucked up legal cases.

Please, please, please tell me what you are doing moves things forward?

[SarahG]

When I got my new DL (after my name change), the clerk at the DMV thought you have to be postop to get a DL with a female name :roll: I had to wait for a half an hour as she called the national office, and then the judge who approved my name change petition (thankfully he was at the court at the time to explain yes, i really can have a DL under my legal name ). :roll: I would imagine it would be common for bureaucrats at the SSA, especially if they haven't been explicitly told otherwise, to ask for full surgery notes when a simple letter will do. In any case, it is pretty clear both agencies are asking for you to be POSTOP if you want perniment (not temporary) documentation.

Oops, brain freeze-

I meant to say head STATE office, not national office, DMV's don't have a national office LOL.

The info is a year old, I cannot say if there have been any changes since then, or if there will be new changes once the new president admin (assuming Obama can prove he is a natural born citizen that is) takes charge. I would imagine any fees listed would be the most likely to change from year to year.

[ottorocket]

Best of luck J...hope you're doing well

[IanDante]

Good luck girl, it was great to see you. I'll be pulling for ya. Please let me know how it goes on Friday. God bless.

[SarahG]

This gets very complicated with the SSA if the trans citizen was, before SRS, legally married to a GG. The SSA, although doesn't have their trans change of name or gender policy on their website, does contain this which is worth noting:

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/1505005006!opendocument



PR 08-058 Entitlement to Widower's Lump Sum Death Payment Where Claimant Underwent Sex Reassignment Surgery After the Marriage - California - Leslie A. M~

DATE: February 4, 2008
1. SYLLABUS

This issue involved in this decision is martial relationship after sex reassignment surgery after the date of the marriage.
2. OPINION

You asked whether Leslie A. M~(the claimant), who was born a male and underwent sex reassignment surgery after marrying Janet L. G~ (the insured), could be considered the insured's spouse for purposes of a widower's lump sum death payment.

EVIDENCE

The claimant was born a male named Ronald L. G~ on September 16, 1946, in Bozeman, Montana.

The claimant married the insured in the State of California, on November 2, 1973.

On September 27, 2000, the claimant obtained a court order from the San Luis Obispo Superior Court changing his name to Leslie A. M~.

The claimant applied for a new Social Security card on September 29, 2000, and the Numident was changed to reflect the new name and a sex designation of female.

On June 12, 2001, the claimant underwent male to female gender reassignment surgery in Portland, Oregon.

The insured died on February 21, 2007 in Tulare, California.

The claimant applied for a lump sum death payment on March 19, 2007. She alleged that she and the insured were still married and lived together at the same address when the insured died. She stated that she had never applied to amend her birth certificate in the State of Montana or elsewhere to reflect her change of sex.

The Bureau of Vital Statistics, Helena, Montana, verified that there has been no request for amendment of birth certificate for Ronald L. G~, male, born September 16, 1946, in Bozeman, Montana.

ANALYSIS

A lump sum death payment (LSDP) is payable to a surviving widow(er) of an individual who is fully or currently insured when (s)he dies, if the spouses were living in the same household at the time of the deceased's death. See Section 202(i) of the Social Security Act; 20 C.F.R. §§ 404.390-.391 (2006). "Living in the same household" is defined as customarily living together as husband and wife in the same residence. See 20 C.F.R. § 404.347; Program Operations Manual System (POMS) RS 00210.035(B)(1)(b). Here, the insured and the claimant lived together in the same residence at the time of the insured's death. The issue remaining is whether they were legally "husband and wife" at the time of the insured's death.

The Social Security Act (the Act) directs the Agency to look to state law in determining family status. See Section 216(h)(1)(A)(i). The Agency will determine whether an applicant is the spouse of an insured by determining "if the courts of the State in which such insured was domiciled at the time of death, . . . would find that such applicant and such insured individual were validly married" at the time of the insured's death. Id. see also 20 C.F.R. §§ 404.344-.346. If the highest court in a state has ruled on the validity of a marriage involving a party who has undergone a sex change, the Agency must follow the state court's holding when adjudicating a claim involving similar facts. The California Supreme Court, the highest court in the domicile state in this case, has not ruled on the validity of a marriage involving a party who has undergone a sex change after the marriage. Accordingly, we look to the relevant state statutes and case law to try and predict how the California courts would rule on this matter.

The claimant and the insured were domiciled in California at the time of the insured's death. In California, "[o]nly a marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized." Cal. Fam. Code § 308.5. When the claimant and the insured married each other in 1973, they were a male and female, respectively. Thus, their marriage was clearly a valid marriage recognized under California law at its inception. Id. See Vryonis v. Vryonis, 202 Cal. App.3d 712, 723 (2d Dist. 1988) (a lawful marriage is one which complies with statutory requirements; "lawful" and "valid" are nearly synonymous) (dicta). Once a marriage has been shown to exist, it is presumed to be a legal and valid marriage. See, e.g., Marsh v. Marsh, 79 Cal. App. 560, 569 (3rd Dist. 1926) ("This is a presumption of more than ordinary strength. It is one of the strongest known to law."). We must then consider whether the claimant's actions subsequent to the marriage invalidate or terminate a marriage that was valid at its inception. See POMS GN 00305.005(B)(4)(b).

The claimant's name change had no legal effect on the marriage. The only relevant inquiry is whether the reassignment surgery affects the validity of the marriage. With regard to the claimant's sex change, the Agency follows state law in determining the sex of an individual.

If a state recognizes an individual's ability to undergo a sex change, we must determine whether the individual has taken the appropriate action to obtain state recognition of the change. If the state does not recognize an individual's ability to undergo a sex change, or the individual has not followed the procedure set out by the state for it to recognize a sex change, we will find an individual to be the birth sex. Although both California and Montana have procedures to obtain state recognition of a sex change, the claimant did not avail herself of these procedures. The claimant took no steps after the sex reassignment surgery to obtain a court order to reflect a change of sex from male to female. See Cal. Health and Safety Code §§103425, 103430, 103435 (petition for a change of gender may be filed with the Superior Court). Without a court order reflecting a change of sex, the claimant could not request the birth state, Montana, to amend the birth certificate. The State of Montana recognizes a gender change certified by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction that an individual has undergone a sex change by surgical procedure. See Mont. Code. Ann. §§ 50-15-204(2), Mont. Admin. R. 37.8.106(6). Because the claimant did not follow the procedure set out by California or Montana for these states to recognize a change in sex, the claimant is found to be the sex the claimant was at birth, i.e., male.

Since there is no state recognition of claimant's sex change, the claimant is considered a male, and the marriage between the claimant and the insured would remain a valid marriage between a male and female at the insured's death. Therefore, the claimant has the status of "spouse" for purposes of the lump sum death payment.


This shows that the SSA contradicts itself numerous ways when dealing with trans citizens.

1- in this case they let someone who was preop have a female gender in the SSA files, before having had SRS (contrary to SSA policy). This case study does not show how that gender change, without having had SRS, happened.

2- Yet after that, the SSA says that they use the birth state's definition of sex to determine what sex an individual is. If a citizen transitions, gets SRS- and changes their BC, then SSA follows what that new BC says. BUT if you're born in a state where your legal sex status CAN NEVER BE CHANGED (Texas, Ohio, Tenn, etc) then as far as the SSA goes, you are male forever as far as SSA policy is concerned (like death benefits). They probably would still list you as female on file, if you can prove you've had SRS- you just wouldn't be able to take advantage of it under certain situations (like death benefits).

IF you can change your BC, but fail to do so- then you're male in the eyes of the SSA (as far as policies other than sex designation go) until you update your BC.

IN THEORY, this would mean that the SSA would concede to any LEGAL birth certificate (meaning a BC that would stand up to legal scrutiny) for executing policy.

If you have had SRS and get a new BC, then that's all you need to do. But if you mislead your birth state (for instance, having a vague letter imply you've had a sex change surgery when really you've only had an orchi- in a state where only postops can get their BC changed) then you have a female BC, but not one that would stand up in the event of a legal challenge. Under this scenario, the SSA would never know the BC is an invalid document, and would concede to it until the event of (if this ever even happens) the BC being invalidated as incorrect. Even then, unless your birth state notifies the SSA that your birth certificate is kaput, they may never know and so you could easily have a female file with the SSA for life, while only having a female BC for a few years (yikes, confused yet?!?).

I am starting to wonder if the SSA has no fucking clue what to do in cases involving trans citizens, and just wings it based on the phases of the moon, weather conditions on Pluto, alignment of stars, political orientation of the president in office at the time, and the state of decomp of Ronald Reagan's corpse. Obviously as the NCFTE shows- they want you to be postop, but then their case study shown above shows that in at least one instance, they gave a preop a female designation.

But in a case like the OP, if you have proof of SRS, and have gotten your new female BC from California- it is really simple, just do what the NCFTE says for a passport & SSA change and you're done. No extra steps, headaches, or thinking :)

[juliana_dominguez]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

Obviously, I cannot say whether you have or have not had SRS. I can only report that you, personally, have reported as to telling 'a white lie' as to having SRS when you had not.

And, on the question of your marriage, I personally posted a thread in www.tgirltalk.com/forums , about your realtionship with a member of tgirltalk which was 100% supportive of you.

I hope what you are doing is finding a way to use the California court in a way that has been denied in Manila.

You will know about Rommel Silverio, Veronica Deposy. Both totally fucked up legal cases.

Please, please, please tell me what you are doing moves things forward?

i cant understand what you are asking me, yes i am getting my name change and gender change here in the USA, as well acquiring identification forms such as passport, drivers license, social security, etc. also moving forward with my immigration and citizenship.

[T Oracle]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

Obviously, I cannot say whether you have or have not had SRS. I can only report that you, personally, have reported as to telling 'a white lie' as to having SRS when you had not.

And, on the question of your marriage, I personally posted a thread in www.tgirltalk.com/forums , about your realtionship with a member of tgirltalk which was 100% supportive of you.

I hope what you are doing is finding a way to use the California court in a way that has been denied in Manila.

You will know about Rommel Silverio, Veronica Deposy. Both totally fucked up legal cases.

Please, please, please tell me what you are doing moves things forward?

i cant understand what you are asking me, yes i am getting my name change and gender change here in the USA, as well acquiring identification forms such as passport, drivers license, social security, etc. also moving forward with my immigration and citizenship.

What I am is totally confused.

As I understood it, and as you seem to have confirmed, you are not a citizen of the US, but of the Philippines.

Where the two cases I've mentioned (both of people who had SRS) had requests for change of gender rejected, at the highest level, in the Philippines legal system.

Can a US court rule on the gender of a non citizen?

[GIA LOVES RON]

Juliana, Kamusta ka na dhay? I have a question. Can you get your birth certificate and name change legally here in the US without becoming an immigration or citizen? PM me this info girl if you can.

By the way, You look gorgeous with your new breast...i'm HAPPY FOR YOU girl. I hope your doing well.

[juliana_dominguez]

Hi There : )

First of all, Congradulations!

And second, in the state of california, you will need some proof from a doctor saying that you had SRS in order to change your gender on your birth certificate with social security.

However, you can still get your name changed to whatever you like. ALSO, you can goto the DMV and request the DL328 Form to change your name and gender on your Drivers License/ID without proof of SRS from a doctor.

Good Luck : )

PS. I would recommend the Hollywood DMV and LA Superiour Court House. You will have no hastle getting this taken care of.

i have my surgeons affidavit or declaration that i had SRS already, and yes, after i get my new name and gender i will be getting my drivers license and social security with my new name and gender. i am not a resident of LA or Hollywood so my court is here in Orange County. What are the questions that the judge asks? so i can prepare and practice in front of the mirror. lol

Obviously, I cannot say whether you have or have not had SRS. I can only report that you, personally, have reported as to telling 'a white lie' as to having SRS when you had not.

And, on the question of your marriage, I personally posted a thread in www.tgirltalk.com/forums , about your realtionship with a member of tgirltalk which was 100% supportive of you.

I hope what you are doing is finding a way to use the California court in a way that has been denied in Manila.

You will know about Rommel Silverio, Veronica Deposy. Both totally fucked up legal cases.

Please, please, please tell me what you are doing moves things forward?

i cant understand what you are asking me, yes i am getting my name change and gender change here in the USA, as well acquiring identification forms such as passport, drivers license, social security, etc. also moving forward with my immigration and citizenship.

What I am is totally confused.

As I understood it, and as you seem to have confirmed, you are not a citizen of the US, but of the Philippines.

Where the two cases I've mentioned (both of people who had SRS) had requests for change of gender rejected, at the highest level, in the Philippines legal system.

Can a US court rule on the gender of a non citizen?

yes i can acquire a court order name and gender change even i am not yet a citizen, also, i can acquire a new birth certificate. i know they got rejected in the Philippines, because by Philippine law, even if a transsexual had completed SRS they still are considered males, the Philippines see the XX and XY chromosomes to determine the sex of a person, also, they what matters is the birth sex, so if i am born a male, completed my sexual reassignment surgery, and went to court for a legal name and gender change, it won't be given to me. I am still a male even tho i have a vagina. that's just how it works in the Philippines, so what did i do? i flew across the pacific, i know here in the USA i am gunna have rights so there ya go, im getting my name and gender change and i love it

[juliana_dominguez]

Juliana, Kamusta ka na dhay? I have a question. Can you get your birth certificate and name change legally here in the US without becoming an immigration or citizen? PM me this info girl if you can.

By the way, You look gorgeous with your new breast...i'm HAPPY FOR YOU girl. I hope your doing well.

thanks girl! yes you can, here in california what requires is a court order name and gender change then you can legally change your birth ceritficate, check out the forms section of www.dhs.ca.gov hope to see you soon, call me

[meditation]

hey all! it's been a while since i posted. so well, this friday i will be having my court order date for my name and gender change, this is my first time to be in front of a judge, I am excited that i am getting my new name and my gender changed to a Female, so that i can have a new name and gender on legal documents such as drivers license, ID, passport, etc. I am happy that i am here in American wherein being a transsexual I have rights to change my name and my gender legally unlike from where i was born and grew up, Philippines, wherein we dont have rights like that. I am a bit worried of the questions that the judge might ask me. I heard some cases that they have been rejected because of lack of proof that they had sexual reassignment surgery, Any input from the other girls here? Wish me luck.

mwahs
Juliana :D

Good Luck! Wow, i am jealous of you. You are so far ahead. :)

[T Oracle]

yes i can acquire a court order name and gender change even i am not yet a citizen, also, i can acquire a new birth certificate. i know they got rejected in the Philippines, because by Philippine law, even if a transsexual had completed SRS they still are considered males, the Philippines see the XX and XY chromosomes to determine the sex of a person, also, they what matters is the birth sex, so if i am born a male, completed my sexual reassignment surgery, and went to court for a legal name and gender change, it won't be given to me. I am still a male even tho i have a vagina. that's just how it works in the Philippines, so what did i do? i flew across the pacific, i know here in the USA i am gunna have rights so there ya go, im getting my name and gender change and i love it

If that's how things work in California then go for it. Good luck at the court hearing.

[tsntx]

i didnt know you had srs

im shocked to learn u were married and had srs all w/o even having your name changed....

go to cobra on thursday!

[juliana_dominguez]

i didnt know you had srs

im shocked to learn u were married and had srs all w/o even having your name changed....

go to cobra on thursday!

i shouldve changed my name and gender legally first before i got married, i know... but it all works out great. i'll try to go to cobra this thursday

[Realgirls4me]

Good luck with everything, Juliana. I wish I could help, but I know nothing of this issue you are grappling with. When did you go post? Were you a post at the pageant?

... I didn't know. Congratulations, young lady.

[tsntx]

well i for sure would love to meet you!

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Congrats girl and goodluck. I hope the INS won't give you guys a hard time. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[DS-Kika]

Cool! you look stunning! ^_^

[Willie Escalade]

Congratulations, and good luck!

[juliana_dominguez]

thanks yall

[CuriousD]

Best of luck!

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Like I said Goodluck to you girl. Though T-Oracle has a point. Read this article involving a post op transexual who was granted citizenship 6 years after surgery but denied to acknowledge her marriage to a man.

http://www.filipinoexpress.com/18/49_news.html


The letter also cited that BCIS disallows recognition of change of sex in order for a marriage between two persons born of the same sex to be considered bonafide.

I hope your case don't get as scrutinized cos the consequences of perjury are HIGH.

Best Wishes!

~Kisses.

HTG

[JanetElise]

First of all may I say you are just scrumptious!

Secondly if you don't have documentation
of your gender change just drop trou :)

[Helvis2012]

Excellent!