Look out Democrats

[InHouston]

Democrats have lost the election now. This is the real America.

You're probably looking at the first female president of the United States in the near future.



She's intelligent, articulate, and just a plain old ass-kickin red-blooded American. Unlike the weenies across the aisle in this campaign.

[trish]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

[InHouston]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

They wanted control of Alaskan territory, gun rights, and limited intrusion of the government into their lives. Another gripe she had was that Alaska entered the union for it's vast stores of energy, and congress has allowed the environmentalist to prevent those stores from being tapped. She promises to begin drilling the Northern slopes should she be able to.

All that is well within the scope of the American spirit.

[InHouston]

Sounds like someone's got major wood for Sarsar. You are too funny. Thanks for the laugh.


Democrats have lost the election now. This is the real America.

You're probably looking at the first female president of the United States in the near future.



She's intelligent, articulate, and just a plain old ass-kickin red-blooded American. Unlike the weenies across the isle in this campaign.

Sarsar? You're about as clear as mud.

[InHouston]

Trish,

Stop confusing InHouston with facts. He wants Sarsar to be America's Mother.


Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Here's a fact. The Democrats have made the same mistake with Obama and Biden just as they did with John Kerry and John Edwards. They assumed the American people were too simple to not see through their empty rhetoric and 'feel good' speeches. McCain and Palin are real people and genuine Americans. I wouldn't be surprised either that the American people step up and yank many of the seats back from the Democrats in the House and Senate as well.

[trish]

Spin it however you like, the (Alaskan) Independence Party IS UNAMERICAN, THEY WANT TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION. Palin's husband was a member of the party and Gov. Palin herself spoke at their convention! Palin is a real and genuine traitor, just like McCain when he confessed to war crimes. McCain is so genuine he doesn't know how many houses he and his wife own!

[InHouston]

Spin it however you like, the (Alaskan) Independence Party IS UNAMERICAN, THEY WANT TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION. Palin's husband was a member of the party and Gov. Palin herself spoke at their convention! Palin is a real and genuine traitor, just like McCain when he confessed to war crimes. McCain is so genuine he doesn't know how many houses he and his wife own!

I never would have expected something so 'thin' from you Trish. That's pretty weak.

[InHouston]

McCain and Palin are real people and genuine Americans.

"Genuine Americans?" Wha? Uh? Where? Are you saying that Obama and Biden are not "genuine Americans?"

WTF is a genuine American? Please explain.

Definition of "Genuine"

1. real: having the qualities or value claimed
a genuine Cézanne


2. sincerely felt: not affected or pretended
a look of genuine surprise


3. candid: honest and open in relationships with others
a very genuine person

Being that they are Americans, then by the above criteria Obama and Biden are not genuine Americans.

[trish]

1. Palin claims to be a patriotic American and yet her husband was a secessionist. That's just not genuine.

2. McCain says he understands and feels for the ordinary American trying to make ends meet. But McCain never had to worry about making ends meet. He grew up upper middle class and married into real wealth. How many houses does he live in? No one knows for sure. His sympathy for the average American is neither sincere nor genuine.

3. McCain took bribes from Keating to unregulate the Savings and Loan industry. That's not being candid.



1. Obama grew up in a single parent family, was taught the values of family, community and education. He worked hard, got into Harvard, became president of the National Review and graduated in the top of his class. He just paid off his student loans with the money he recently made from the book he wrote more than twenty years ago.

2. Top graduates of Harvard Law, especially presidents of the Havard Law Review can write their own ticket to any number of top paying firms. When plants were shutting down all over Chicago, Obama decided to help out of work laborers and become a community organizer. No one can say his sympathies were not genuine.

3. Obama is the most openly honest candidate running. His life is an open book (you should read it) and everyone he meets admires his amiable and honest demeanor.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

God- another reason why I don't go to Texas anymore.
After 8 years of a hick in office, this is all we need.

Glad to know she's never left the US either, only on Kuwait visit
and just got her passport LAST YEAR.

PINOCHIO PALIN

Her speech was FULL OF LIES.

THANK GOODNESS FOR THE AP.


Check out Pinocchio Palin's claims and the truth:

PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending … and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.

PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."

THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.

Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.

He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.

The AP report also showed how Palin's champions have exaggerated the Alaskan governor's 'acheivements':

MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply … She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.

THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state — by population.

MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. … She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.

THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.

FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."

THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."

THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.

[SarahG]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

I wonder how long that "Civil War" would last...

[Stoked]

[quote="AllanahStarrNYC"]God- another reason why I don't go to Texas anymore.
After 8 years of a hick in office, this is all we need.

Glad to know she's never left the US either, only on Kuwait visit
and just got her passport LAST YEAR.

PINOCHIO PALIN

Her speech was FULL OF LIES.

THANK GOODNESS FOR THE AP.


Check out Pinocchio Palin's claims and the truth:

AND NOW... THE REST OF THE STORY....


Check out Pinocchio Palin's claims and the truth:

Shame on you Allanah, what part on you is growing?

By the way, do you believe everything you read?



PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending … and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation.

THE REST OF THE STORY...
In the system we have now, earmark money is available, why shouldn't she take advantage of it? It benefits her constituents...
Alaska requested $750 million in special funding... first of all, i havent been able to verify that fact, except from the AP story, and if true, do any of you know what that money was for? Does it include the $400 million for the bridge? The numbers make this seem like a huge deal, but the details are conspicuously missing. "By far the largest per capita request", but the SMALLEST per acre request I would imagine. I can imagine the largest state with the smallest amount of people might have special needs in funding the infrastructure of the state... cant you?


While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

THE REST OF THE STORY.
While Palin was for the bridge, it as when the cost was estimated at $233 million and was to open up the area for exploration also, not just to connect the airport. The cost ballooned to nearly $400 million and administration officials told her the project looked less likely. That is when she turned against it, favoring less costly alternatives. Seems like she had enough sense not to spend another $170 million.


PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.

THE REST OF THE STORY...
He authored not a single major law or reform.



PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."

THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.

THE REST OF THE STORY
the 5% / $2200 increase in tax for the middle class increase by Obama is true, and so is the 3% increase by McCain... BUT you will notice no $ amount was stated. In reality, the actual number is only a $1400 tax increase on the middle class from McCains plan. Yes, I actually read this report on the" tax policy centers" website.



The AP report also showed how Palin's champions have exaggerated the Alaskan governor's 'acheivements':

THE REST OF THE STORY...
The same can be said for Obama, and in the end the issue is irrelevant. Neither are particularly experienced no matter which way you want to spin it.



FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."

THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.

THE REST OF THE STORY...
There are 50 states in the Union, not just 23 plus the district of columbia, .... sooooooo 76,175 / 51 = 1493.627 votes per state. That IS less than 1525 if your math is bad. Yup not quite the whopper you want us to believe


FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."

THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.

THE REST OF THE STORY...
George Bush is anything but a conservative... that is exactly why he has no support among his base, and because his base doesnt like him, he has low approval #s. they see him as a tax and spend liberal, which he basically is. The rebublican congress was no better than he.


You see Allanah... in your world, nothing is as it really seems. Interesting no?

[Stoked]

Democrats have lost the election now. This is the real America.

You're probably looking at the first female president of the United States in the near future.



She's intelligent, articulate, and just a plain old ass-kickin red-blooded American. Unlike the weenies across the aisle in this campaign.

I had the same thought of her being the first female president, wouldnt that be a hoot. Still a long way off, it is hers to lose though.

And did you see McCain introduce his 97 year old mother who appears more able minded than many on this board? He aint dyin any time soon. What a smooth kick in the ass to the deathmongers.

[Buzz]

That's right Americans, be very very afraid! What's that? No fear?? Then we have a video to show you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw1vEzqld0I

Pleasant nightmares! Remember, only *we* can protect you from nightmares. Vote for us, vote for us.

Sincerely, your Republican party

ps. Yes, we have no shame. So what!

[yodajazz]

McCain and Palin are real people and genuine Americans.

"Genuine Americans?" Wha? Uh? Where? Are you saying that Obama and Biden are not "genuine Americans?"

WTF is a genuine American? Please explain.

Definition of "Genuine"

1. real: having the qualities or value claimed
a genuine Cézanne


2. sincerely felt: not affected or pretended
a look of genuine surprise


3. candid: honest and open in relationships with others
a very genuine person

Being that they are Americans, then by the above criteria Obama and Biden are not genuine Americans.
Thank you for your explanation. This is scary to me. This shows signs of brainwashing, where people are not connected to reality. So rational arguments are mostly ineffective.

Who are you to judge who is genuine, when all politicians read from prepared speeches? I could go into the biographies of Joe Biden and Barrack Obama and their years of combined service, but I know that facts are not important to people like you. McCain’s campaign manager said; ‘This election is not about the issues”. Issues are based on facts, like how many people are unemployed, is one example.

I do not have the words to express how sad and pathetic it is that such viewpoints exist. You are saying that people, who don’t agree with your viewpoint are not “genuine Amercans”. The United States of America was founded on principles, as outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. One of corollaries from those principles was that free speech and debate were healthy for our nation. But in recent years the respect of public discourse, has been replaced by arguments like InHouston’s. The “they are not one of us” reasoning is very tribal, and goes against the basic foundation of our nation. So who is a “genuine American” again? I don’t believe that you knew that much about Sarah Palin two weeks ago, so how can you testify as to how genuine she is?

I do commend you, InHouston for openly expressing your thoughts. But I am very saddened by them. People beware that this is classic "brainwashed" reasoning, devoid of logic, as other have noted.

[trish]

"I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending … and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere." ...Palin.

Palin SUPPORTED the Bridge to Nowhere before national attention revealed as the pork barrel joke that it was. After all the finger pointing and laughing was over, she was against it...but she wasn't beyond asking for and obtaining the funds that would've built the bridge. Did anyone ever ask was Alaska finally decided to do with all that moola?

[PapaGrande]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Although not specifically authorized in the Constitution, it was understood at the time, and up until the time of the Civil War, that the States voluntarily entered the Union and could also voluntarily remove themselves. There is absolutely nothing immoral or unethical about secession. Even Lincoln at one time supported it.

[SarahG]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Although not specifically authorized in the Constitution, it was understood at the time, and up until the time of the Civil War, that the States voluntarily entered the Union and could also voluntarily remove themselves. There is absolutely nothing immoral or unethical about secession. Even Lincoln at one time supported it.

Right but we've had closure on this one since the 60s.... the 1860s.

Succession as a VP candidate in 2008? You have to be fucking kidding me....

[hippifried]

Is'uns we all gittin' ready fowa anuthuh "wah buttwin the staietes"?

JUBILATION T. CORNPONE
Lil' Abner : The Musical (1956)
(Gene De Paul / Johnny Mercer)
Stubby Kaye - 1956

When we fought the Yankees and annihilation was near,
Who was there to lead the charge that took us safe to the rear?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Old "Toot your own horn - pone."
Jubilation T. Cornpone, a man who knew no fear!

When we almost had 'em but the issue still was in doubt,
Who suggested the retreat that turned it into a rout?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Old "Tattered and torn - pone."
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he kept us hidin' out!

With our ammunition gone and faced with utter defeat,
Who was it that burned the crops and left us nothing to eat?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Old "September Morn - pone."
Jubilation T. Cornpone, the pants blown off his seat!

HURRAY!

When it seemed like our brave boys would keep on fighting for months,
Who took pity on them and ca-pit-u-lated at once?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Unshaven and shorn - pone.
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he weren't nobody's dunce!

Who went re-con-noiter-ing to flank the enemy's rear,
Circled through the piney woods, and disappeared for a year?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Old "Treat 'em with scorn - pone."
Jubilation T. Cornpone, the missing mountaineer!

Who became so famous with a reputation so great,
That he ran for president and didn't carry a state?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Old "Wouldn't be sworn - pone."
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he made the country wait!

Stonewall Jackson got his name by standing firm in the fray.
Who was known to all his men as good ol' "Paper Mache?"
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;


*****


Jubilation T. Cornpone, he really saved the day!

REPRISE ( FINALE ):

Though he's gone to his reward, his mighty torch is still lit.
First in war. First in peace. First to holler, "I quit!"
Jubilation T. Cornpone;


*****


Jubilation T. Cornpone, he really saved the day!


MOVIE VERSES:

History says that General Grant was pretty good with a jug,
Who went drink for drink with him and wound up under the rug?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Passed out until morn - pone.
Jubilation T. Cornpone, his whiskers in his mug!

Hearing that a Northern spy had come to town for the night,
Who gained entrance to her room and lost the glorious fight?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;
Old "Weary and worn - pone."
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he fought all through the night!

There at Appomatox Lee and Grant were present, of course.
As Lee swept a tear away, who swept the back of his horse?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone;


*****


Jubilation T. Cornpone, a picture of remorse!
Dogpatch here we come.

[Stoked]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Although not specifically authorized in the Constitution, it was understood at the time, and up until the time of the Civil War, that the States voluntarily entered the Union and could also voluntarily remove themselves. There is absolutely nothing immoral or unethical about secession. Even Lincoln at one time supported it.

Right but we've had closure on this one since the 60s.... the 1860s.

Succession as a VP candidate in 2008? You have to be fucking kidding me....

Actually Sarah G... you are kind of wrong twice.

Palin's husband is not running for VP.

And secession really isnt as closed as one might think. The door seems to still be open for a single state to secede by mutual agreement with the government. Read for yourself.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

[Stoked]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Although not specifically authorized in the Constitution, it was understood at the time, and up until the time of the Civil War, that the States voluntarily entered the Union and could also voluntarily remove themselves. There is absolutely nothing immoral or unethical about secession. Even Lincoln at one time supported it.

Right but we've had closure on this one since the 60s.... the 1860s.

Succession as a VP candidate in 2008? You have to be fucking kidding me....


Actually Sarah G...

Secession really isnt as closed as one might think. The door seems to still be open for a single state to secede by mutual agreement with the government. Read for yourselfs.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

[SarahG]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Although not specifically authorized in the Constitution, it was understood at the time, and up until the time of the Civil War, that the States voluntarily entered the Union and could also voluntarily remove themselves. There is absolutely nothing immoral or unethical about secession. Even Lincoln at one time supported it.

Right but we've had closure on this one since the 60s.... the 1860s.

Succession as a VP candidate in 2008? You have to be fucking kidding me....


Actually Sarah G...

Secession really isnt as closed as one might think. The door seems to still be open for a single state to secede by mutual agreement with the government. Read for yourselfs.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

That was an interesting article, but the author does agree that a state cannot unilaterally Secede


Texas v. White is settled law. It stands for the proposition that the Constitution prohibits unilateral secession

Which means that Palin, or her husband rather, can't get Alaska to leave the Union unless, possibly, it is done "With Permission"

Do you expect permission to be granted for Alaska to secede? Even if the theory supports that it is possible, there is a clear difference between law theory & reality... and this is one of those times. Even if this Alaska interest group had support from the majority of the Alaskan population, it still wouldn't be able to actually secede.

The reason why I said Palin, and not Palin's husband, in my last post was because Palin herself has a history with this group even if it is not formal affiliation (like in her Husband's case).

[PapaGrande]

Her All-American husband was a member of the secessionist Independence Party, which wants Alaska to secede from the Union. As governor, she gave the welcoming address to the Independence Party Convention. Now that doesn't sound anti-American does it?

Although not specifically authorized in the Constitution, it was understood at the time, and up until the time of the Civil War, that the States voluntarily entered the Union and could also voluntarily remove themselves. There is absolutely nothing immoral or unethical about secession. Even Lincoln at one time supported it.

Right but we've had closure on this one since the 60s.... the 1860s.

Succession as a VP candidate in 2008? You have to be fucking kidding me....

Ahhh, so might make right?

[trish]

Regardless of whether it by permission or not, you have to admit that seceding from the United States is UnAmerican.

[El Nino]

Not if the United States distorts into something that it was never set up to be... Then it would be "American"

[SarahG]

Not if the United States distorts into something that it was never set up to be... Then it would be "American"

You mean to a state of existence beyond the civil liberty violations of the civil war or reconstruction eras?

Or the disbandment of the freedom of speech & freedom of the press in WW1?

If a state tolerates an overbearing government time and time again, it really does a number on any logic based on the gov "going too far this time" especially when "this time" is no different from the past in terms of severity.

Think of it this way, with intellectual property rights- you can protect your intellectual property if and only if you consistently and aggressively oppose all instances of that property being used illegally/unethically. This is why Disney still cares about who uses Disney cartoons from the 20s-30s, if they let people freely use & distribute those cartoons (that aren't even on the market anymore) then they have a hard time claiming that someone has "gone too far" as soon as it happens with slightly newer material.... this is why the court ruled improperly (IMHO) with that Metallica-Napster case, Metalica freely encouraged people to pirate their stuff for a great many years, they can't suddenly change their minds when a new technology makes the methodology different.

Now before you say it sure, Alaska was not a state until 1959 IIRC, wasn't even part of the US until 1867.... BUT you'd be totally wrong if you feel overbearing gov activity was absent between WW2 and 2001... and a great deal of these civil liberty violations... you know, the justifications for seceding from the union- are exactly the policies Palin is advocating for. She wants a strong, overbearing centralized government at any & every time it suits her agenda, and her history with this group (in addition to her husband's formal affiliations) just go to show how hypocritical and un-American her view of the matter truly is.

[chefmike]

Boy howdy!!

[yodajazz]

Here's a fact. The Democrats have made the same mistake with Obama and Biden just as they did with John Kerry and John Edwards. They assumed the American people were too simple to not see through their empty rhetoric and 'feel good' speeches. McCain and Palin are real people and genuine Americans. I wouldn't be surprised either that the American people step up and yank many of the seats back from the Democrats in the House and Senate as well.

The use of that term "genuine Amercans" really upset me. The more I think about, I see a term coded with racist intentions. That and the term "real Americans" used in his first post.

Part of this country's greatness is that is let in a variety of people from around the world, who then contributed to the Amercian fabric. But now, according to InHouston, certain people are "genuine Americans, or real Amercians". That is a very dangerous slope to place a flag. And who is not genuine, Barrack Obama, according to him. I suppose Joe Biden would be genuine American, if he supported John McCain rather than Obama. According to the press releases, Joe Biden is supposed to be a champion of the working class. So that could not be why he is not a "genuine American". The old over racist's would call someone a "nigger lover" if they showed the slightess decency towards a person of color.
These coded terms help to perpetuate racist ideals without using the offensive terminology.

And another thing; that "real people" is almost up there too. Is that why the media cannot acknowledge the death of non-combatant 'people' who happen to be citizens of Iraq? We are not allowed to see them as real people. The media has allowed the government to call accidental bombing damage as "collateral damage", rarely acknowledging that the 'damage' often includes human beings. John McCain and Sarah Palin are real people. But what about all the other ethinicities of world?

[hangman]

Spin it however you like, the (Alaskan) Independence Party IS UNAMERICAN, THEY WANT TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION. Palin's husband was a member of the party and Gov. Palin herself spoke at their convention! Palin is a real and genuine traitor, just like McCain when he confessed to war crimes. McCain is so genuine he doesn't know how many houses he and his wife own!

You jump to some pretty good conclusions. Has Gov Palin's husband ever made a statement as to whether he supports Alaska's secession? Has Gov. Palin?

As far as McCain confessing to war crimes. That is not going to fly. I'm sure you would have held up pretty good to hours upon hours of repeated torture. I thank Sen McCain for his service in our armed services, and I thank you too, Trish, for your service in the armed services!!

McCain never said that he didn't know how many house he and his wife had, but why allow facts to get in the way of your argument. Go back and listen to the tape recording of his statement. Rather than getting drawn into a ridiculous discussion he said that he would have his aides get back to the reporter.

Finally, why don't you read up on your God's (read "Obama") support for legislation that might establish a basis for Hawaii to secede?

[trish]

If you confess to war crimes you can say, "Yes, of course, I was tortured." But you can't say I left that hell hole with "honor".

[El Nino]

Let’s talk about Obama and Bidden. Did he or did he not run on an anti-war platform, did he not attack Clinton for her vote on the war, did he not say that if he were “President” he would get the troops out at once, did he not say that the surge was, quote “more bad policy on top of bad policy” ? Well, as it turns out he did say those things.

. He lied to the Liberal Wing of the Democratic Party and all Americans about he’s stance on the war.

. But that’s not all, he picks as his VP, none other than Joe (the warmonger) Bidden, who just recently told Israel (in an obvious display of shameless pandering) that they should attack Iran, Bidden voted for the war and also helped draft the resolution for it. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction here?

. Obama’s now saying that we’ll have to keep troops in Iraq on a permanent basis. Another contradiction.

. First he called for the immediate withdrawals of troops, now he says “well, let’s listen to the Generals and go with a phased withdrawal instead” Yeah, Obongo, more BS.

. He has repeatedly stated that he will remove the troops from Iraq (what ever that means in his mind) an invade Pakistan, so now we know what he means by CHANGE!!! LOL.

. He constantly criticized the Surge, now, under pressure he praises it. So much for having the character to make your own choices and stand by them. Come on, this guy could not even stand up to Bill Orally. He’s a Liberal Elite Pussy Lawyer.

. Let’s talk about his “former” Pastor, the one who said that all Whites are evil, and that God will dam America. He also said that we got what we deserved on 9/11. And that the AIDS virus is punishment from God. This is the same guy that Obama called in his book, quote “my Mentor” So much for not been divisive. Hmm?

. He’s a ferocious pro-gun control advocate, but as a Chicago Lawyer, he put a lot of violent Gang members back on the streets, many of them, guilty of gun related crimes. Let’s not forget that Obama called gun owners, “bitter, angry people who cling to their guns and God“.

. He’s involvement with Tony Fresno, the convicted Felon who helped him buy his 4 million dollar mansion. And made millions himself as a result of real state and mortgage fraud

. The derogatory remarks his loud mouth of a Wife, Michele, has made about Whites, Americans, and America. So who’s the real racist?

. His involvement with those insane Marxist hippies who were responsible for the bombings in the 1960’s, and the 49 million dollar trust fund that he managed for them.

. He claims to be pro-labor while in secrecy his campaign people meet with dignitaries of the Mexican and Canadian Governments, and tell them, quote “don’t worry is just campaign talk, Barrack and Joe Bidden will support NAFTA and expand on it” end quote.

. He did say that it was not necessary for Immigrants to learn English, but rather that it is the obligation of American parents to make sure that their kids learn Spanish. What the hell is wrong with this idiot?

. His lap dog, Bidden helped Israel write the Legislation known as The Palestinian Terror Act. Which gives Israel a free pass to kill Arab Palestinians without any evidence or conviction of crimes. So much for peace and humanity, right?

. He has ties to LA RAZA, and the Black Muslims, and takes their money while preaching about securing the borders.

. Talks about unity and one America, while taking donations from the anti-Christian anti-American group, ADL.

. Spends countless hours wagging his tongue about especial interests groups been so very bad. But he and Bidden have no problem taking Campaign donations from the likes of the oil companies, and the rest of Corporate America.

. He tells people how racism is wrong (which it is) but fails to mentioned that Bidden in one occasion said “you have to be Hindu or Pakistani to work at a Seven Eleven”

So, what can anyone tell us to defend this repugnant deceiver now? Its time that people see him for the what he is, smoke and mirrors, an illusion, a smooth talker, a big presentation with no content, a hair piece that feels and looks real but you know its fake. In conclusion, Obama and Bidden are perhaps more pro-war and pro Zionism than Bush and McCain combined.

[trish]

Let’s talk about Obama and Bidden. Did he or did he not run on an anti-war platform, did he not attack Clinton for her vote on the war, did he not say that if he were “President” he would get the troops out at once, did he not say that the surge was, quote “more bad policy on top of bad policy” ? Well, as it turns out he did say those things.

He (Obama) said he would get the troops out quickly but responsibly. Both Obama and Biden still say the surge is “bad policy”. Today on “Meet the Press” Biden said in effect that even if we sent in ten times the troops and successfully stopped the violence, it wouldn’t last unless there was a real political solution. If we withdraw without a political solution in place Iraq would blow up again. For a long time Obama has proposed timelines for withdraw. It seems that Bush now agrees. McCain, well he’s all for staying a hundred years if that’s what it takes.

[Stoked]

Let’s talk about Obama and Bidden. Did he or did he not run on an anti-war platform, did he not attack Clinton for her vote on the war, did he not say that if he were “President” he would get the troops out at once, did he not say that the surge was, quote “more bad policy on top of bad policy” ? Well, as it turns out he did say those things.

. He lied to the Liberal Wing of the Democratic Party and all Americans about he’s stance on the war.

. But that’s not all, he picks as his VP, none other than Joe (the warmonger) Bidden, who just recently told Israel (in an obvious display of shameless pandering) that they should attack Iran, Bidden voted for the war and also helped draft the resolution for it. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction here?

. Obama’s now saying that we’ll have to keep troops in Iraq on a permanent basis. Another contradiction.

. First he called for the immediate withdrawals of troops, now he says “well, let’s listen to the Generals and go with a phased withdrawal instead” Yeah, Obongo, more BS.

. He has repeatedly stated that he will remove the troops from Iraq (what ever that means in his mind) an invade Pakistan, so now we know what he means by CHANGE!!! LOL.

. He constantly criticized the Surge, now, under pressure he praises it. So much for having the character to make your own choices and stand by them. Come on, this guy could not even stand up to Bill Orally. He’s a Liberal Elite Pussy Lawyer.

. Let’s talk about his “former” Pastor, the one who said that all Whites are evil, and that God will dam America. He also said that we got what we deserved on 9/11. And that the AIDS virus is punishment from God. This is the same guy that Obama called in his book, quote “my Mentor” So much for not been divisive. Hmm?

. He’s a ferocious pro-gun control advocate, but as a Chicago Lawyer, he put a lot of violent Gang members back on the streets, many of them, guilty of gun related crimes. Let’s not forget that Obama called gun owners, “bitter, angry people who cling to their guns and God“.

. He’s involvement with Tony Fresno, the convicted Felon who helped him buy his 4 million dollar mansion. And made millions himself as a result of real state and mortgage fraud

. The derogatory remarks his loud mouth of a Wife, Michele, has made about Whites, Americans, and America. So who’s the real racist?

. His involvement with those insane Marxist hippies who were responsible for the bombings in the 1960’s, and the 49 million dollar trust fund that he managed for them.

. He claims to be pro-labor while in secrecy his campaign people meet with dignitaries of the Mexican and Canadian Governments, and tell them, quote “don’t worry is just campaign talk, Barrack and Joe Bidden will support NAFTA and expand on it” end quote.

. He did say that it was not necessary for Immigrants to learn English, but rather that it is the obligation of American parents to make sure that their kids learn Spanish. What the hell is wrong with this idiot?

. His lap dog, Bidden helped Israel write the Legislation known as The Palestinian Terror Act. Which gives Israel a free pass to kill Arab Palestinians without any evidence or conviction of crimes. So much for peace and humanity, right?

. He has ties to LA RAZA, and the Black Muslims, and takes their money while preaching about securing the borders.

. Talks about unity and one America, while taking donations from the anti-Christian anti-American group, ADL.

. Spends countless hours wagging his tongue about especial interests groups been so very bad. But he and Bidden have no problem taking Campaign donations from the likes of the oil companies, and the rest of Corporate America.

. He tells people how racism is wrong (which it is) but fails to mentioned that Bidden in one occasion said “you have to be Hindu or Pakistani to work at a Seven Eleven”

So, what can anyone tell us to defend this repugnant deceiver now? Its time that people see him for the what he is, smoke and mirrors, an illusion, a smooth talker, a big presentation with no content, a hair piece that feels and looks real but you know its fake. In conclusion, Obama and Bidden are perhaps more pro-war and pro Zionism than Bush and McCain combined.

And another glaring contradiction. Obama's ethnicity.

He claims he is black, yet the one's who raised him, his mother and her father(obama's grandfather) are white.

To portray him self as a "black" american, with the black experience is somewhat disingenuous. he as lived anything but the common black experience.

Besides that, and what I find disheartening, is that by characterizing himself as "black", he shows total disrespect for his "white" mother and "grandfather"

That is shameful.

And that leaves us with this question... If he is willing to "dis" his own mother... who else will he "dis" to further himself?

[trish]

Obama is quite open about who he is. He wrote a book detailing his upbringing. He's expressed in that book and elsewhere nothing but love and respect for his parents. You're the one being shamefully disrespectful of the truth and engaging in distortion.

[Stoked]

Obama is quite open about who he is. He wrote a book detailing his upbringing. He's expressed in that book and elsewhere nothing but love and respect for his parents. You're the one being shamefully disrespectful of the truth and engaging in distortion.

Still, what i say is true. He does nothing to correct anyone who portrays him as black.

[trish]

Still, what i say is true. He does nothing to correct anyone who portrays him as black.

Wrong. What you say is a lie and a distortion. His job on the campaign trail is to discuss policies and issues, not refute every idiot and liar who tries to represent him as something he isn't.

[Stoked]

Still, what i say is true. He does nothing to correct anyone who portrays him as black.

Wrong. What you say is a lie and a distortion. His job on the campaign trail is to discuss policies and issues, not refute every idiot and liar who tries to represent him as something he isn't.

His mother is white. His father is black. That makes him mulatto. Or if that is too harsh a term, bi racial. Raised by white people.

He does nothing, and it wouldnt take much... to remind the world that he is such, yet, this election is seen as one to have the first black man as president...

LMAO... what would the black voters do if he characterized himself as white?

[trish]

He wrote a fucking book about it! And btw you seem to have a rather constricted notion of "black". I'm wondering if YOU could find a black man in the whole of Chicago.

[El Nino]

It's all smoke and mirrors Trish. Biden is a prominent CFR member, as well as are the Obama's, and Bush's and Cheney's etc etc etc....

http://www.breakthematrix.com/content/CFR-The-Socialist-New-World-Order-Think-Tank-and-Policy-Writing-Group-Behind-Bush-Clinton-Ob

There's really no "theory" behind this conspiracy. As the information contained in the above link, incontrovertibly exhibits.

Citing source data is the "scientific method," but does not seem to apply to "Conspiracy Theories." A thousand sources may be quoted, yet will not convince the "skeptics," the "realists." It seems to me the "symptoms of mental illness" are on their side, if they refuse to look at evidence ("There are none so blind as those who WILL not see"); or perhaps something more sinister is at work, such as a knowledge of the truth, that does not want YOU to know.

Wrap your washed out brains around this. Straight from the source...

"We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."

Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee


"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault."

CFR member Richard Gardner, writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.


"The most powerful clique in these (CFR) groups have one objective in common: they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty and the national independence of the U.S. They want to end national boundaries and racial and ethnic loyalties supposedly to increase business and ensure world peace. What they strive for would inevitably lead to dictatorship and loss of freedoms by the people. The CFR was founded for "the purpose of promoting disarmament and submergence of U.S. sovereignty and national independence into an all-powerful one-world government."

Harpers, July l958

Proof is in the pudding

[El Nino]

Still, what i say is true. He does nothing to correct anyone who portrays him as black.

Wrong. What you say is a lie and a distortion. His job on the campaign trail is to discuss policies and issues, not refute every idiot and liar who tries to represent him as something he isn't.

His mother is white. His father is black. That makes him mulatto. Or if that is too harsh a term, bi racial. Raised by white people.

He does nothing, and it wouldnt take much... to remind the world that he is such, yet, this election is seen as one to have the first black man as president...

LMAO... what would the black voters do if he characterized himself as white? GOOD POINT STOKED

[trish]

:roll:

[El Nino]

Nice educated response Trish. Emancipate yourself from herd of sheep already. Just exactly what did I post that has you rolling your eyes? Are you calling me a liar or are you just experiencing a little cognitive dissonance?

[Stoked]

Nice educated response Trish. Emancipate yourself from herd of sheep already. Just exactly what did I post that has you rolling your eyes? Are you calling me a liar or are you just experiencing a little cognitive dissonance?

too funny

[yodajazz]

And another glaring contradiction. Obama's ethnicity.

He claims he is black, yet the one's who raised him, his mother and her father(obama's grandfather) are white.

To portray him self as a "black" american, with the black experience is somewhat disingenuous. he as lived anything but the common black experience.

Besides that, and what I find disheartening, is that by characterizing himself as "black", he shows total disrespect for his "white" mother and "grandfather"

That is shameful.

And that leaves us with this question... If he is willing to "dis" his own mother... who else will he "dis" to further himself?

Brother Stoked, maybe you are as not racist as I thought, maybe you are just ignorant of the Black experience in America. Obama is in fact bi-racial. However the most common definition is that if you have one drop of Black blood you are considered Black. At the time of his birth, they called people “colored people”. And there were separate drinking fountains for colored people until the were outlawed in 1966. While some organizations recognize being bi-racial as distinct category most do not. Obama may not have had a typical ‘Black’ experience, but I’m sure he has experienced it. You just know these things. Despite being raised by White grandparents he has been treated as Black in social interactions.

Where do you get the idea that he is ‘dissing’ his mother? Early in his acceptance speech he praised the sacrifices of his grandmother, (who is White), and said that this was her day as well. And he also mentioned his grandfather's experience as a WWII veteren in the speech also.

But Obama being bi-racial and raised by White grandparents makes the scare tactic that he is a Black racist, seem to be ridiculous, to sensible people.

Obama is legally defined as Black, do you want him to deny the law?

[trish]

I believe Yodajazz already knows that I’m an African-Korean-American. Most people regard me simply as black and that characterization is fine enough with me. Could I identify myself as “white” or "Asian"? I doubt it. Neither I nor anyone else would believe it. My experience of people and their reactions to me are the experiences of a “black” American.

[trish]

btw "breakthematrix" deserves only an eyeroll and nothing more.

[yodajazz]

Let’s talk about Obama and Bidden. Did he or did he not run on an anti-war platform, did he not attack Clinton for her vote on the war, did he not say that if he were “President” he would get the troops out at once, did he not say that the surge was, quote “more bad policy on top of bad policy” ? Well, as it turns out he did say those things.

. He lied to the Liberal Wing of the Democratic Party and all Americans about he’s stance on the war.

. But that’s not all, he picks as his VP, none other than Joe (the warmonger) Bidden, who just recently told Israel (in an obvious display of shameless pandering) that they should attack Iran, Bidden voted for the war and also helped draft the resolution for it. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction here?

. Obama’s now saying that we’ll have to keep troops in Iraq on a permanent basis. Another contradiction.

. First he called for the immediate withdrawals of troops, now he says “well, let’s listen to the Generals and go with a phased withdrawal instead” Yeah, Obongo, more BS.

. He has repeatedly stated that he will remove the troops from Iraq (what ever that means in his mind) an invade Pakistan, so now we know what he means by CHANGE!!! LOL.

. He constantly criticized the Surge, now, under pressure he praises it. So much for having the character to make your own choices and stand by them. Come on, this guy could not even stand up to Bill Orally. He’s a Liberal Elite Pussy Lawyer.

. Let’s talk about his “former” Pastor, the one who said that all Whites are evil, and that God will dam America. He also said that we got what we deserved on 9/11. And that the AIDS virus is punishment from God. This is the same guy that Obama called in his book, quote “my Mentor” So much for not been divisive. Hmm?

. He’s a ferocious pro-gun control advocate, but as a Chicago Lawyer, he put a lot of violent Gang members back on the streets, many of them, guilty of gun related crimes. Let’s not forget that Obama called gun owners, “bitter, angry people who cling to their guns and God“.

. He’s involvement with Tony Fresno, the convicted Felon who helped him buy his 4 million dollar mansion. And made millions himself as a result of real state and mortgage fraud

. The derogatory remarks his loud mouth of a Wife, Michele, has made about Whites, Americans, and America. So who’s the real racist?

. His involvement with those insane Marxist hippies who were responsible for the bombings in the 1960’s, and the 49 million dollar trust fund that he managed for them.

. He claims to be pro-labor while in secrecy his campaign people meet with dignitaries of the Mexican and Canadian Governments, and tell them, quote “don’t worry is just campaign talk, Barrack and Joe Bidden will support NAFTA and expand on it” end quote.

. He did say that it was not necessary for Immigrants to learn English, but rather that it is the obligation of American parents to make sure that their kids learn Spanish. What the hell is wrong with this idiot?

. His lap dog, Bidden helped Israel write the Legislation known as The Palestinian Terror Act. Which gives Israel a free pass to kill Arab Palestinians without any evidence or conviction of crimes. So much for peace and humanity, right?

. He has ties to LA RAZA, and the Black Muslims, and takes their money while preaching about securing the borders.

. Talks about unity and one America, while taking donations from the anti-Christian anti-American group, ADL.

. Spends countless hours wagging his tongue about especial interests groups been so very bad. But he and Bidden have no problem taking Campaign donations from the likes of the oil companies, and the rest of Corporate America.

. He tells people how racism is wrong (which it is) but fails to mentioned that Bidden in one occasion said “you have to be Hindu or Pakistani to work at a Seven Eleven”

So, what can anyone tell us to defend this repugnant deceiver now? Its time that people see him for the what he is, smoke and mirrors, an illusion, a smooth talker, a big presentation with no content, a hair piece that feels and looks real but you know its fake. In conclusion, Obama and Bidden are perhaps more pro-war and pro Zionism than Bush and McCain combined.

Let's be real, being pro Israel is a requirement for being president. The Israeli lobby is more powerful than the labor lobby, according to some experts. Think of all the workers in big labor, but their lobby input is less powerfull that that of Israel. Both McCain and Obama had to go for approval from them.

[Stoked]

And another glaring contradiction. Obama's ethnicity.

He claims he is black, yet the one's who raised him, his mother and her father(obama's grandfather) are white.

To portray him self as a "black" american, with the black experience is somewhat disingenuous. he as lived anything but the common black experience.

Besides that, and what I find disheartening, is that by characterizing himself as "black", he shows total disrespect for his "white" mother and "grandfather"

That is shameful.

And that leaves us with this question... If he is willing to "dis" his own mother... who else will he "dis" to further himself?

Brother Stoked, maybe you are as not racist as I thought, maybe you are just ignorant of the Black experience in America. Obama is in fact bi-racial. However the most common definition is that if you have one drop of Black blood you are considered Black. At the time of his birth, they called people “colored people”. And there were separate drinking fountains for colored people until the were outlawed in 1966. While some organizations recognize being bi-racial as distinct category most do not. Obama may not have had a typical ‘Black’ experience, but I’m sure he has experienced it. You just know these things. Despite being raised by White grandparents he has been treated as Black in social interactions.

Where do you get the idea that he is ‘dissing’ his mother? Early in his acceptance speech he praised the sacrifices of his grandmother, (who is White), and said that this was her day as well.

But Obama being bi-racial and raised by White grandparents makes the scare tactic that he is a Black racist, seem to be ridiculous, to sensible people.

Obama is legally defined as Black, do you want him to deny the law?

Obama is in fact bi-racial. However the most common definition is that if you have one drop of Black blood you are considered Black.

Why is that yodajazz? I want to claim him as white, as he has just as much white blood.. or do you have some kind of exclusivity? By your prejudiced thinking he has a drop of white blood too, thusly, he is white. So now what?

[Stoked]

Let's be real, being pro Israel is a requirement for being president. The Israeli lobby is more powerful than the labor lobby, according to some experts. Think of all the workers in big labor, but their lobby input is less powerfull that that of Israel. Both McCain and Obama had to go for approval from them.[/quote]

Why is that yodajazz?... why is America so reliant on Israel that the Israeli lobby is so powerful? And who exactly is the Israeli lobby and what do they want?

[El Nino]

Dearest Trish,
That info can be found in multiple locations. Disregard the website name if you want, it doesn't matter. But do however, regard the factual content and quotations and then debate that if you want to sustain any shred of rationality and credibility. Crafty way of dodging the real issues and everything, but it doesn't hold any water. And I mean ANY! Oh yeah, I almost forgot to advise you to WAKE UP!!!

[yodajazz]

Obama is in fact bi-racial. However the most common definition is that if you have one drop of Black blood you are considered Black.

Why is that yodajazz? I want to claim him as white, as he has just as much white blood.. or do you have some kind of exclusivity? By your prejudiced thinking he has a drop of white blood too, thusly, he is white. So now what?

Brother Stoked, I didn't make the rules. These laws were made by people way before me. And they were defined by law, according to my understanding. I have about 1/4 Native American. The laws were made by White people, who decided who they wanted to let into thier club.
I have relatives whose birth certificate listed them as Mulato.

[Stoked]

Obama is in fact bi-racial. However the most common definition is that if you have one drop of Black blood you are considered Black.

Why is that yodajazz? I want to claim him as white, as he has just as much white blood.. or do you have some kind of exclusivity? By your prejudiced thinking he has a drop of white blood too, thusly, he is white. So now what?

Brother Stoked, I didn't make the rules. These laws were made by people way before me. And they were defined by law, according to my understanding. I have about 1/4 Native American. The laws were made by White people, who decided who they wanted to let into thier club.
I have relatives whose birth certificate listed them as Mulato.

So you consensually carry on the racist practices of yesteryear... and you post as the enlightened one.

As I have been saying, it is you who are the racist.

[trish]

Stoked, you're the one trying to turn people against Obama based on perceptions of his race. If it's not working, perhaps it's because your audience is not racist.

El Nino. You already think I've no credibility. I know you have none. I'll let others decide for themselves. In the meantime, when making political points, you might try referencing works of non-fiction.

[El Nino]

HAHAHA, nice fabrications Trish. What did I post that was fiction? Man, you are programmed.

[El Nino]

Still you have not engaged the hardcore issues...

[chefmike]

It's all smoke and mirrors Trish. Biden is a prominent CFR member, as well as are the Obama's, and Bush's and Cheney's etc etc etc....

http://www.breakthematrix.com/content/CFR-The-Socialist-New-World-Order-Think-Tank-and-Policy-Writing-Group-Behind-Bush-Clinton-Ob

There's really no "theory" behind this conspiracy. As the information contained in the above link, incontrovertibly exhibits.

Citing source data is the "scientific method," but does not seem to apply to "Conspiracy Theories." A thousand sources may be quoted, yet will not convince the "skeptics," the "realists." It seems to me the "symptoms of mental illness" are on their side, if they refuse to look at evidence ("There are none so blind as those who WILL not see"); or perhaps something more sinister is at work, such as a knowledge of the truth, that does not want YOU to know.

Wrap your washed out brains around this. Straight from the source...

"We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."

Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee


"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault."

CFR member Richard Gardner, writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.


"The most powerful clique in these (CFR) groups have one objective in common: they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty and the national independence of the U.S. They want to end national boundaries and racial and ethnic loyalties supposedly to increase business and ensure world peace. What they strive for would inevitably lead to dictatorship and loss of freedoms by the people. The CFR was founded for "the purpose of promoting disarmament and submergence of U.S. sovereignty and national independence into an all-powerful one-world government."

Harpers, July l958

Proof is in the pudding

Is Nino off his meds again, trish?

[El Nino]

Great Chef, but why don't you tackle the content?

[Stoked]

Stoked, you're the one trying to turn people against Obama based on perceptions of his race. If it's not working, perhaps it's because your audience is not racist.

El Nino. You already think I've no credibility. I know you have none. I'll let others decide for themselves. In the meantime, when making political points, you might try referencing works of non-fiction.

You havent answered the question Trish... how would black voters perceive Obama if he stated he was white instead of black?

[Stoked]

His mother is white. His father is black. That makes him mulatto. Or if that is too harsh a term, bi racial. Raised by white people.

"Mulatto?" Very ignorant of you. Why am I not surprised. Thank you for finally showing your true colors.

Why yes Bravefart, (damn, my spelling problem again), he is mulatto.

Mulatto

mu·lat·to (mʊ-lăt'ō, -lä'tō, myʊ-)
n., pl. -tos or -toes.
A person having one white and one Black parent. See Usage Note at octoroon.
A person of mixed white and Black ancestry.

[Stoked]

What a ridiculous question. Barack Obama identifies himself as black, that is a choice he obviously made years ago. What, you don't respect his right to choose?

How would black voters view Obama if he called himself white? You are asking us to speculate on something that has not happened. Ridiculous.

Why do you even care? You were never going to vote for, in your words, the "Mulatto" :roll:




Stoked, you're the one trying to turn people against Obama based on perceptions of his race. If it's not working, perhaps it's because your audience is not racist.

El Nino. You already think I've no credibility. I know you have none. I'll let others decide for themselves. In the meantime, when making political points, you might try referencing works of non-fiction.

You havent answered the question Trish... how would black voters perceive Obama if he stated he was white instead of black?

Barack Obama identifies himself as black, that is a choice he obviously made years ago. What, you don't respect his right to choose?

I do respect his right to choose but I dont respect his choice to identify as black, I think its disrespectful to his white mother and grandfather who raised him. Just as if he identified himself white, it would be disrespectful to his black father who didnt raise him.

Oh but wait, I expect to hear from yodajazz about how that last sentence is somehow "code' for a swipe at black fathers. Save yourself a post, please.

Now, back to you Bravefart (sp), neither you nor trish have answered the question. How would black voters perceive Obama if he identified as white?

[El Nino]

Stoked is correct on the Obama issue. It doesn't matter whatever the hell he chooses to call himself (black or white). The facts remain that he is 50/50 and to call himself either black or white, disregards 1/2 of what he actually is. So sorry folks, if he was elected, he wouldn't be the first black president at all. Like it or not, thats just the deal, and even though the mainstream media likes to call him black... he's no more black than white. Now this guy fits the black bill!

[Stoked]

Oh Stoked, you sweet, sweet, imbecile:

You think his choice is disrespectful? Oh really? You the hell cares what a bigot like you thinks? Funny, you never addressed the origins of the word mulatto, but that is what I expect from scum such as you.


How would black voters perceive Obama if he identified as white?

You know nothing about the U.S. Congress, and you clearly can not read. I answered your stupid question shit for brains.

Now please, get back to what you do best: fucking one of your relatives. Leave serious political discussions to those who have completed elementary school.

:lol:




I do respect his right to choose but I dont respect his choice to identify as black, I think its disrespectful to his white mother and grandfather who raised him. Just as if he identified himself white, it would be disrespectful to his black father who didnt raise him.

Oh but wait, I expect to hear from yodajazz about how that last sentence is somehow "code' for a swipe at black fathers. Save yourself a post, please.

Now, back to you Bravefart (sp), neither you nor trish have answered the question. How would black voters perceive Obama if he identified as white?

Blackheart(for calling my mother a cunt)... you stroking out over there?

Still, you havn't answered the question... How would black voters perceive Obama if he identified as white?

Its just one question...

[trish]

Stoked wants to know:
You havent answered the question Trish... how would black voters perceive Obama if he stated he was white instead of black?

How would I know? According to you I’m not black.

But the “blacks” I do know don’t give a damn what you call him. They aren’t planning to smoke pot with him, and they know sure as hell McCain’s not going to be their drinking buddy. They aren’t voting on cultural identity like O’Reilly et al. They like Obama on the issues: health care for all, sound energy policy, getting us out of Iraq quickly and responsibly, no more tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%.

I know, I know…I haven’t answered the question:


…how would black voters perceive Obama if he stated he was white instead of black?

It’s a stupid question. Why would he say he’s white when he’s black? He’s not black as the ace of spades according to you. So what? Should I worry that he’s not going to represent my Asian half because he characterizes himself as a black man? There are a thousand shades of black.
When he wins, will he be the first black president of the United States of America? You bet my black ass he will. Historically we’re an inclusive group. There are myriad shades of "black" and the term includes them all. All you need is just a little sprinkle of color in you soul.

[PapaGrande]

Let’s talk about Obama and Bidden. Did he or did he not run on an anti-war platform, did he not attack Clinton for her vote on the war, did he not say that if he were “President” he would get the troops out at once, did he not say that the surge was, quote “more bad policy on top of bad policy” ? Well, as it turns out he did say those things.

. He lied to the Liberal Wing of the Democratic Party and all Americans about he’s stance on the war.

. But that’s not all, he picks as his VP, none other than Joe (the warmonger) Bidden, who just recently told Israel (in an obvious display of shameless pandering) that they should attack Iran, Bidden voted for the war and also helped draft the resolution for it. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction here?

. Obama’s now saying that we’ll have to keep troops in Iraq on a permanent basis. Another contradiction.

. First he called for the immediate withdrawals of troops, now he says “well, let’s listen to the Generals and go with a phased withdrawal instead” Yeah, Obongo, more BS.

. He has repeatedly stated that he will remove the troops from Iraq (what ever that means in his mind) an invade Pakistan, so now we know what he means by CHANGE!!! LOL.

. He constantly criticized the Surge, now, under pressure he praises it. So much for having the character to make your own choices and stand by them. Come on, this guy could not even stand up to Bill Orally. He’s a Liberal Elite Pussy Lawyer.

. Let’s talk about his “former” Pastor, the one who said that all Whites are evil, and that God will dam America. He also said that we got what we deserved on 9/11. And that the AIDS virus is punishment from God. This is the same guy that Obama called in his book, quote “my Mentor” So much for not been divisive. Hmm?

. He’s a ferocious pro-gun control advocate, but as a Chicago Lawyer, he put a lot of violent Gang members back on the streets, many of them, guilty of gun related crimes. Let’s not forget that Obama called gun owners, “bitter, angry people who cling to their guns and God“.

. He’s involvement with Tony Fresno, the convicted Felon who helped him buy his 4 million dollar mansion. And made millions himself as a result of real state and mortgage fraud

. The derogatory remarks his loud mouth of a Wife, Michele, has made about Whites, Americans, and America. So who’s the real racist?

. His involvement with those insane Marxist hippies who were responsible for the bombings in the 1960’s, and the 49 million dollar trust fund that he managed for them.

. He claims to be pro-labor while in secrecy his campaign people meet with dignitaries of the Mexican and Canadian Governments, and tell them, quote “don’t worry is just campaign talk, Barrack and Joe Bidden will support NAFTA and expand on it” end quote.

. He did say that it was not necessary for Immigrants to learn English, but rather that it is the obligation of American parents to make sure that their kids learn Spanish. What the hell is wrong with this idiot?

. His lap dog, Bidden helped Israel write the Legislation known as The Palestinian Terror Act. Which gives Israel a free pass to kill Arab Palestinians without any evidence or conviction of crimes. So much for peace and humanity, right?

. He has ties to LA RAZA, and the Black Muslims, and takes their money while preaching about securing the borders.

. Talks about unity and one America, while taking donations from the anti-Christian anti-American group, ADL.

. Spends countless hours wagging his tongue about especial interests groups been so very bad. But he and Bidden have no problem taking Campaign donations from the likes of the oil companies, and the rest of Corporate America.

. He tells people how racism is wrong (which it is) but fails to mentioned that Bidden in one occasion said “you have to be Hindu or Pakistani to work at a Seven Eleven”

So, what can anyone tell us to defend this repugnant deceiver now? Its time that people see him for the what he is, smoke and mirrors, an illusion, a smooth talker, a big presentation with no content, a hair piece that feels and looks real but you know its fake. In conclusion, Obama and Bidden are perhaps more pro-war and pro Zionism than Bush and McCain combined.

Obama also said that Iran cannot, under any circumstances, be allowed to have nuclear weapons. So how does that rule out military action? What he is saying now is not a whole lot different from Republicans, how the hell he can be the "peace" candidate is beyond me.

Lets consider the "100 years in Iraq", I don't recall Obama saying he would pull our troop from Korea, Japan, Germany, or any place we have had troops for decades, so why is having some troops in Iraq long term that much different? Oh ya its unpopular with voters, most of whom apparently don't give a rats ass about the rest of our foreign empire.

[trish]

Japan and Germany are happy to have us there. But why would anyone want yet another Korean situation? Obama, unlike his predecessor and his opponent said, that on the world stage he would seek diplomatic and political solutions first and use the military as a last resort. One might think that's just common sense as well as moral sense. However, the Bush administration made the mistake of assuming that regime change in Iraq could be accomplished neatly by a surgical military strike. The military solution was preferred to letting the UN inspectors do their job. To many of us, including Obama, it was an obviously immoral and politically stupid act of aggression. Even Bush is backing out now...but not McCain. But you're right. I don't give a rats ass about our foreign empire, but I do have concerns for neighbors and allies around the world.

[El Nino]

Japan and Germany are happy to have us there. But why would anyone want yet another Korean situation? Obama, unlike his predecessor and his opponent said, that on the world stage he would seek diplomatic and political solutions first and use the military as a last resort.


Um, and you believe this politician? Ha... like he has a say in anything anyways. He is a sock-puppet like the rest of them. Bought out, sold and controlled. If Obama is elected, the wars will not stop. Mark my words, Trish.
Especially now that they appointed Joe (war-monger) Biden to be the VP. What an insult

[chefmike]

Japan and Germany are happy to have us there. But why would anyone want yet another Korean situation? Obama, unlike his predecessor and his opponent said, that on the world stage he would seek diplomatic and political solutions first and use the military as a last resort.


... like he has a say in anything anyways. He is a sock-puppet like the rest of them. Bought out, sold and controlled. If Obama is elected, the wars will not stop. Mark my words, Trish

You did a very good job of describing McSame and the repugs. However, Obama is a progressive democrat. That much should be obvious, even to a Ron Pauloholic and truther like yourself. It should be obvious...but you just can't talk to some people. Some people prefer to think that the sky is falling.

[El Nino]

Chef, I admire your hope and positive outlook regarding the Obama campaign, and it is good that you want some kind of change or new direction for America; like most Obama supporters. Trouble is they are mislead by design and don't understand at all the real power and intent of the Obama machine. As you already know, talk is cheap and Obama wouldn't have gotten nearly this far in the game if it wasn't for his submission and consent to the will of the ruling class. You know, the power-brokers that back the puppets, and are the gears that move the machine. Obama and Biden are CFR 'till the end. Sorry stretch, that's just the facts. Do a google search. The progressive democrat thing is all fine and dandy, but is flawed. Moreover, those who believe in it can also be easily controlled and scared into submission by another inaugural terroristic event, when the new president takes office. No offense to you or your lack of understanding but I am just telling you what is going down. And remember, you are free to do as we tell you!

[yodajazz]

Chef, I admire your hope and positive outlook regarding the Obama campaign, and it is good that you want some kind of change or new direction for America; like most Obama supporters. Trouble is they are mislead by design and don't understand at all the real power and intent of the Obama machine. As you already know, talk is cheap and Obama wouldn't have gotten nearly this far in the game if it wasn't for his submission and consent to the will of the ruling class. You know, the power-brokers that back the puppets, and are the gears that move the machine. Obama and Biden are CFR 'till the end. Sorry stretch, that's just the facts. Do a google search. The progressive democrat thing is all fine and dandy, but is flawed. Moreover, those who believe in it can also be easily controlled and scared into submission by another inaugural terroristic event, when the new president takes office. No offense to you or your lack of understanding but I am just telling you what is going down. And remember, you are free to do as we tell you!

I share much of your cynicism. However you are missing an important point. The Repeublican party is responsible for lying to the American public, thereby taking us to war under false pretenses. While I do believe that this action is criminal, the only viable choice we have is to elect the Democrats into office. At least we can say to the Dems is that we held the Republican party responsible so you better be accountable too.

We should take care of the most important thing first. If John McCain gets into office so you think he will feel that he needs to be accountable knowing the public has let a trillion dollar false war slide by?

So basically you are supporting the Republican part by doing nothing about their crimes. So that makes you an accomplice. Taking the Repubs out gives a momemtum for the truth to come to light also. It would take hard work, but it would be much easier than allowing the Repubs a third term.

Many simple minded people out there think people like me support Obama, just because he’s Black. But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible vs. the Bush arrogance of refusing to talk with parties until after they gave in to our demands. Obama is far from perfect, but he represents, what he says and that is hope. Let’s attempt to use our real options, if they are real, then you can easier go on to fight for greater truth. I might be with you then.

[Stoked]

Chef, I admire your hope and positive outlook regarding the Obama campaign, and it is good that you want some kind of change or new direction for America; like most Obama supporters. Trouble is they are mislead by design and don't understand at all the real power and intent of the Obama machine. As you already know, talk is cheap and Obama wouldn't have gotten nearly this far in the game if it wasn't for his submission and consent to the will of the ruling class. You know, the power-brokers that back the puppets, and are the gears that move the machine. Obama and Biden are CFR 'till the end. Sorry stretch, that's just the facts. Do a google search. The progressive democrat thing is all fine and dandy, but is flawed. Moreover, those who believe in it can also be easily controlled and scared into submission by another inaugural terroristic event, when the new president takes office. No offense to you or your lack of understanding but I am just telling you what is going down. And remember, you are free to do as we tell you!

I share much of your cynicism. However you are missing an important point. The Repeublican party is responsible for lying to the American public, thereby taking us to war under false pretenses. While I do believe that this action is criminal, the only viable choice we have is to elect the Democrats into office. At least we can say to the Dems is that we held the Republican party responsible so you better be accountable too.

We should take care of the most important thing first. If John McCain gets into office so you think he will feel that he needs to be accountable knowing the public has let a trillion dollar false war slide by?

So basically you are supporting the Republican part by doing nothing about their crimes. So that makes you an accomplice. Taking the Repubs out gives a momemtum for the truth to come to light also. It would take hard work, but it would be much easier than allowing the Repubs a third term.

Many simple minded people out there think people like me support Obama, just because he’s Black. But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible vs. the Bush arrogance of refusing to talk with parties until after they gave in to our demands. Obama is far from perfect, but he represents, what he says and that is hope. Let’s attempt to use our real options, if they are real, then you can easier go on to fight for greater truth. I might be with you then.

For all the 'talking' you have done on this board, you have changed no-ones opinion. So tell me... you think it is any different in the political, religious world where real power and money are in play?

Diplomacy doesnt work unless there are "real world" pressures applied.

Next time some thug is robbing you at gunpoint, talk to him nicely, maybe he will apologize and walk away. Or maybe not.

And dont start the gun debate, if gun control worked, there would be no gun crimes in Chicago or Washington DC. Maybe you should go there and talk sensibilty to the gangs and criminals there. Oh, but wait... Obama is from Chicago, he MUST have "talked sensibly" to them already... so why is there still gun crime?

Its time to grow out of your utopian ideas... evil is as evil does. It doesnt play by any rules, it does what it wants.

[trish]

Real world pressures are not exclusively military. Neither are they exclusive negative. The threat of economic sanctions and the promise of economic incentives is just one example. Even military threat or the promise to remove a military threat and something that one can put on the discussion table. Diplomacy IS the application of real world pressures, tensions and incentives. To unilaterally sanction a State and not even discuss the possibility of that action prior to its application seems, if not counter-productive, at least woefully inefficient. What? Are we all cave men who can only grunt?

So did Obama have a "pow-wow" with gangs in Chicago. You must know something the rest of us don't. Of course if he didn't, your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.

[Stoked]

[quote your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.[/quote]

Why? The criminals and gangs STILL have and use guns despite the gun ban. There has been plenty of talking and pontificating about guns in Chicago, now they are banned... why didnt talking as yodajazz proclaims, work the criminals and gangs regarding guns, and for that matter, crime in general?

yodajazz says
" But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him(Obama) say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible "

Evil is as evil does...

[Realgirls4me]

Its time to grow out of your utopian ideas... evil is as evil does. It doesnt play by any rules, it does what it wants.

The most glaring example of practicing this is the current moron-in-charge in the White House with his illegal, immoral, unwarranted, costly attack and occupation of a sovereign nation that had did nothing to this one. Yep, pure evil at its best.

[evilernie]

It's because of religion that the world is so messed up. There is NO EVIL and in consequence, there is NO GOOD, either. Just humanity.

Greed ans intolerance are the root of all "evil". Treat your enemies as Jesus did. Maybe they'll realize that being neighborly is not too bad after all.

[tsafficianado]

Question for Trish, others who have real insight welcome to reply:

Is there any constitutional basis (valid or not) that precludes secession by any state from the United States?

[trish]

And why is that a question for me in particular? It's irrelevant to the rather trivial observation that constitutional or not, it's not very American to harbor a desire to secede from America. If Obama had spoken to a secessionist convention, I know you assholes would be all over him...so cut the hypocrisy.

[tsafficianado]

Why so defensive Trish?
Please note it was addressed to you, others.
You brought up the subject of secession on this thread.
I have always perceived you as pretty bright and knowledgeable in many areas including Constitutional matters and thought you might know the answer.
It was just a question, a matter of personal curiosity not particularly related to the current Presidential race or the particulars of this thread.
As far as your comment that advocating secession is not very 'American'....was the colonial effort to secede from Great Britain also not 'American'?
I have always held you in reasonably high regard, the asshole remark garners you a couple of demerits.

[PapaGrande]

And why is that a question for me in particular? It's irrelevant to the rather trivial observation that constitutional or not, it's not very American to harbor a desire to secede from America. If Obama had spoken to a secessionist convention, I know you assholes would be all over him...so cut the hypocrisy.

Why is it "unamerican", IMO rejection of an abusive government is very much part of our American tradition. It was understood by the States at the time of the ratification of the constitution that they could back out if they decided it was no longer in their interest. I believe 2-3 states had that spelled out specially when they agreed to join, I would have to go look up what ones again. Anyway, even if you believe that once the States joined the union they are bound by the Constitution to always be a part of it, there is nothing unethical about secession. I think some of you are stuck with the stereotype of a redneck with a confederate flag in the back window of his pick em up truck.

If you really want to educate yourself on secession on an ethical/philosophical level I can suggest this great book:
http://www.amazon.com/Secession-State-Liberty-David-Gordon/dp/1560003626

Another thing to put some of this in perspective is that in the 1700s a "State" meant a sovereign nation, not like we think of states today. This was intended to be a unions of 13 sovereign nations under a federal government that was small and had very limited power and function.

I would be far more interested in Obama if he wanted to secede from America, although given his ideas on wealth redistribution it probably wouldn't be a place I would want to live in.

[yodajazz]

your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.

Why? The criminals and gangs STILL have and use guns despite the gun ban. There has been plenty of talking and pontificating about guns in Chicago, now they are banned... why didnt talking as yodajazz proclaims, work the criminals and gangs regarding guns, and for that matter, crime in general?

yodajazz says
" But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him(Obama) say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible "

Evil is as evil does...

Talking is done before the guns are drawn. And speaking of gang violence, there is actually less today, because major gangs held a summit and called a truce. This was some years ago. There is still violence from smaller unaffiliated gangs, but it is less overall. It is my understanding violent crimes are down. Jail is only a partial answer, because gangs can just continue the war in jail and export the ideas to their brothers on the streets. Major gangs have even been run from jail. I think that you think I mean not to be people in jail, when I say things like this. This is not the case. I am saying jail is not the only way to lower the crime rate.

Obama not talking about not using military action at all, he’s just saying that talking would be used more prominently. Funny now the Bush administration blasted Obama for saying that he would negotiate with Iran, then turned around and did it themselves. All wars end by talking, even if it is just to surrender. But sometimes they just agree to end the hostilities, like between Iran and Iraq. All the weapons of death including poison gas were used, but it ended with negotiation (talking).

Nobody is saying, that negotiation is going end all problems or violence, but it is an important tool that has been under used. It can help change the odds as some potential enemies are neutralized and also encourage allies to join you.

I remember hearing on the news the President of Iran had written Bush a 30 page letter. At the time they reported that the Bush Adminstration didn't think much of the letter. And I believe their position at the time meet our demands and then we'll talk. I don't know what he said, of course, but I think a smart course would have been to use his words as a point to negotiate. Use his words to find points of agreement, and also seek concessions.

[yodajazz]

It's because of religion that the world is so messed up. There is NO EVIL and in consequence, there is NO GOOD, either. Just humanity.

Greed ans intolerance are the root of all "evil". Treat your enemies as Jesus did. Maybe they'll realize that being neighborly is not too bad after all.

How come you call yourself "Evil Ernie"? Actually I don't believe much in 'evil' because the concept is often given too much power. I prefer to think of things mostly as errors in thinking. So the solutions are to adjust errors in a thought process.

When Bush called Iran one of the "Axis of evil", I think that was a mistake, unless he was building a case for war. I heard that the young people of Iran are not that crazy about the old religious heads. I would have tried to exploit thier differences culturally, like trying send Justin Timberlake to do a concert, etc. Instead, painting Iran as evil with a broad brush gives the Iranian leadership more power by exploiting fear from the threats of the US.

[PapaGrande]

I remember hearing on the news the President of Iran had written Bush a 30 page letter. At the time they reported that the Bush Adminstration didn't think much of the letter. And I believe their position at the time meet our demands and then we'll talk. I don't know what he said, of course, but I think a smart course would have been to use his words as a point to negotiate. Use his words to find points of agreement, and also seek concessions.

Possibly you saw that on Frontline's "Showdown With Iran". Basically when we rolled over Iraq with our Mission Accomplished banners the Iranians wanted to negotiate, but I guess the Bush Administration though we would have the whole Middle East under our control in a few years so told the Iranians to fuck off.

[Stoked]

your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.

Why? The criminals and gangs STILL have and use guns despite the gun ban. There has been plenty of talking and pontificating about guns in Chicago, now they are banned... why didnt talking as yodajazz proclaims, work the criminals and gangs regarding guns, and for that matter, crime in general?

yodajazz says
" But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him(Obama) say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible "

Evil is as evil does...

Talking is done before the guns are drawn. And speaking of gang violence, there is actually less today, because major gangs held a summit and called a truce. This was some years ago. There is still violence from smaller unaffiliated gangs, but it is less overall. It is my understanding violent crimes are down. Jail is only a partial answer, because gangs can just continue the war in jail and export the ideas to their brothers on the streets. Major gangs have even been run from jail. I think that you think I mean not to be people in jail, when I say things like this. This is not the case. I am saying jail is not the only way to lower the crime rate.

Obama not talking about not using military action at all, he’s just saying that talking would be used more prominently. Funny now the Bush administration blasted Obama for saying that he would negotiate with Iran, then turned around and did it themselves. All wars end by talking, even if it is just to surrender. But sometimes they just agree to end the hostilities, like between Iran and Iraq. All the weapons of death including poison gas were used, but it ended with negotiation (talking).

Nobody is saying, that negotiation is going end all problems or violence, but it is an important tool that has been under used. It can help change the odds as some potential enemies are neutralized and also encourage allies to join you.

I remember hearing on the news the President of Iran had written Bush a 30 page letter. At the time they reported that the Bush Adminstration didn't think much of the letter. And I believe their position at the time meet our demands and then we'll talk. I don't know what he said, of course, but I think a smart course would have been to use his words as a point to negotiate. Use his words to find points of agreement, and also seek concessions.

Gang violence lower because of handgun laws and talking, meetings and truces? OMG...truces? So wrong again Yodajazz. Its because of this program created by George W Bush coming in at the end of the gun crime ridden Clinton administration. Its called PSN. Project Safe Neighborhoods.


"Although U.S. violent crime rates have been declining steadily
and are now at a 30-year low,gun violence,particularly
homicide,continues to be a significant problem. Death by firearms
accounted for 67 percent of all homicides in 2002.1
To combat gun crime,in 2001 President George W. Bush created an
aggressive,comprehensive gun crime reduction strategy called Project
Safe Neighborhoods (PSN). By linking federal,state,and local law
enforcement,prosecutors,and community leaders,PSN provides a
multifaceted approach to deterring and punishing gun crime. It
represents a nationwide commitment to reduce gun crime by
providing locally based programs with the tools and resources they
need to succeed.


"In 2002 gun crime was a serious problem in Chicago. There were 648 homicides that year -- most of them resulting from guns. To address the problem, a multiagency task force turned to Project Safe Neighborhoods, a Department of Justice initiative targeting felons with firearms. The idea behind Project Safe Nieghborhoods was simple: send felons to serve long sentences in federal prisons far from home if they are caught with guns or ammunition. Our research evaluates this strategy along with two other PSN initiatives: (1) supply-side firearm policing activities, and (2) social marketing of deterrence and social norms messages through justice-style offender notification meetings."

and this

"Project Safe Neighborhoods Results in 37 Percent Drop in Homicide Rates
Chicago Program Uses Non-traditional Methods to Decrease Gun-related Homicide

Chicago – June 20, 2007 - Project Safe Neighborhoods, a Chicago program designed to bring law enforcement together with researchers and community agencies to reduce gun violence, is associated with a 37 percent drop in monthly homicide rates. According to a study in the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies, the largest effect comes from a unique collaborative program involving criminal justice and community actors focused on the re-entry of ex-offenders into the community.

The Project Safe Neighborhoods program includes four elements of intervention:

-An increase in federal prosecutions for convicted felons carrying or using guns
-An increase in sentence length associated with federal prosecution
-Supply-side firearm policing strategies
-A unique series of offender notification meetings that take place within troubled communities and emphasize views of legitimacy about the law.

“This study demonstrates the potential for new collaborative efforts to reduce gun violence in Chicago,” says study author Andrew Papachristos. “The strategies implemented in Chicago might be adapted or applied to other cities with similar gun problems.” Specifically, Papachristos notes that the offender notification meetings have led to the most significant decreases in homicide compared to traditional policing strategies.

This research highlights new possibilities for gun violence programs nation-wide. “The work provides a focal point for policy makers looking for interventions that might reduce lethal gun violence in urban areas,” says Papachristos. “Citizens, policy makers, criminal justice officials and community organizations should think seriously about such collaborative efforts when devising future crime prevention/intervention strategies.”

.

[trish]

tsafficianado quips:
...As far as your comment that advocating secession is not very 'American'....was the colonial effort to secede from Great Britain also not 'American'?

Now let's go back and see what my comment really was:

trish:


It's irrelevant to the rather trivial observation that constitutional or not, it's not very American to harbor a desire to secede from America.

So no, the colonial effort to secede from Great Britain wasn't unAmerican. It was rather "unBritainian" don't you think? Of course you don't.

[tsafficianado]

It was just a question Trish, one that occurred to me a few weeks ago when I was watching the Ken Burns series 'Civil War' on PBS and that came to mind as I was following the thread. I meant no offense.

[a994]

McCain and Palin are real people and genuine Americans.


Just like that Real Person and Genuine American whom we have been stuck with for the past eight years.

[evilernie]

I don't think secession is such a bad idea. Surely, our insurance rates and taxes will go down, since we don't have to fund catastrophes in the south and mid-west.

Oil is bought through the global market. There are plenty of natural gas that we can buy from Canada. Besides, we're along the coast, so travel of people and goods shouldn't be a problem.

However, we might lose out on cheap labor from illegal immigrants that the south is enjoying. On second thought, nobody says that we can't outsource mindless work to the south to benefit from cheap labor. I'm sure NAFTA will still be there after we secede.

And to keep the gravy train going we can fund a few religious leader down there to make sure that they'll pass "kind" laws our way. I'm sure their flock wouldn't mind, because God speaks through their leader.

----

ha ha.. sorry, I'm on a roll.. I should take it back. Believe me. I don't really feel that way.

[qeuqheeg222]

i hate to say it but i think the american populace is so stupid that they will buy into this repug shit and vote for mccccain/palin..the gop is really good at packagin...american markets respond to this..throw in the ol'fashion racist fears and there you have another 4yrs of fucked up governance..

[PapaGrande]

i hate to say it but i think the american populace is so stupid that they will buy into this repug shit and vote for mccccain/palin..the gop is really good at packagin...american markets respond to this..throw in the ol'fashion racist fears and there you have another 4yrs of fucked up governance..

And the Democrats will have blown a sure thing.

[yodajazz]

your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.

Why? The criminals and gangs STILL have and use guns despite the gun ban. There has been plenty of talking and pontificating about guns in Chicago, now they are banned... why didnt talking as yodajazz proclaims, work the criminals and gangs regarding guns, and for that matter, crime in general?

yodajazz says
" But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him(Obama) say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible "

Evil is as evil does...

Talking is done before the guns are drawn. And speaking of gang violence, there is actually less today, because major gangs held a summit and called a truce. This was some years ago. There is still violence from smaller unaffiliated gangs, but it is less overall. It is my understanding violent crimes are down. Jail is only a partial answer, because gangs can just continue the war in jail and export the ideas to their brothers on the streets. Major gangs have even been run from jail. I think that you think I mean not to be people in jail, when I say things like this. This is not the case. I am saying jail is not the only way to lower the crime rate.

Obama not talking about not using military action at all, he’s just saying that talking would be used more prominently. Funny now the Bush administration blasted Obama for saying that he would negotiate with Iran, then turned around and did it themselves. All wars end by talking, even if it is just to surrender. But sometimes they just agree to end the hostilities, like between Iran and Iraq. All the weapons of death including poison gas were used, but it ended with negotiation (talking).

Nobody is saying, that negotiation is going end all problems or violence, but it is an important tool that has been under used. It can help change the odds as some potential enemies are neutralized and also encourage allies to join you.

I remember hearing on the news the President of Iran had written Bush a 30 page letter. At the time they reported that the Bush Adminstration didn't think much of the letter. And I believe their position at the time meet our demands and then we'll talk. I don't know what he said, of course, but I think a smart course would have been to use his words as a point to negotiate. Use his words to find points of agreement, and also seek concessions.

Gang violence lower because of handgun laws and talking, meetings and truces? OMG...truces? So wrong again Yodajazz. Its because of this program created by George W Bush coming in at the end of the gun crime ridden Clinton administration. Its called PSN. Project Safe Neighborhoods.


"Although U.S. violent crime rates have been declining steadily
and are now at a 30-year low,gun violence,particularly
homicide,continues to be a significant problem. Death by firearms
accounted for 67 percent of all homicides in 2002.1
To combat gun crime,in 2001 President George W. Bush created an
aggressive,comprehensive gun crime reduction strategy called Project
Safe Neighborhoods (PSN). By linking federal,state,and local law
enforcement,prosecutors,and community leaders,PSN provides a
multifaceted approach to deterring and punishing gun crime. It
represents a nationwide commitment to reduce gun crime by
providing locally based programs with the tools and resources they
need to succeed.


"In 2002 gun crime was a serious problem in Chicago. There were 648 homicides that year -- most of them resulting from guns. To address the problem, a multiagency task force turned to Project Safe Neighborhoods, a Department of Justice initiative targeting felons with firearms. The idea behind Project Safe Nieghborhoods was simple: send felons to serve long sentences in federal prisons far from home if they are caught with guns or ammunition. Our research evaluates this strategy along with two other PSN initiatives: (1) supply-side firearm policing activities, and (2) social marketing of deterrence and social norms messages through justice-style offender notification meetings."

and this

"Project Safe Neighborhoods Results in 37 Percent Drop in Homicide Rates
Chicago Program Uses Non-traditional Methods to Decrease Gun-related Homicide

Chicago – June 20, 2007 - Project Safe Neighborhoods, a Chicago program designed to bring law enforcement together with researchers and community agencies to reduce gun violence, is associated with a 37 percent drop in monthly homicide rates. According to a study in the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies, the largest effect comes from a unique collaborative program involving criminal justice and community actors focused on the re-entry of ex-offenders into the community.

The Project Safe Neighborhoods program includes four elements of intervention:

-An increase in federal prosecutions for convicted felons carrying or using guns
-An increase in sentence length associated with federal prosecution
-Supply-side firearm policing strategies
-A unique series of offender notification meetings that take place within troubled communities and emphasize views of legitimacy about the law.

“This study demonstrates the potential for new collaborative efforts to reduce gun violence in Chicago,” says study author Andrew Papachristos. “The strategies implemented in Chicago might be adapted or applied to other cities with similar gun problems.” Specifically, Papachristos notes that the offender notification meetings have led to the most significant decreases in homicide compared to traditional policing strategies.

This research highlights new possibilities for gun violence programs nation-wide. “The work provides a focal point for policy makers looking for interventions that might reduce lethal gun violence in urban areas,” says Papachristos. “Citizens, policy makers, criminal justice officials and community organizations should think seriously about such collaborative efforts when devising future crime prevention/intervention strategies.”

.

My brother, my brother Stoked. Are you unable to acknowledge the relationship, between a truce between national gangs, and gang violence? Instead, you can only to policies of some White man in Washington as being able to affect social change. Can’t you understand that people can make change from within their own communities?

There has been violence between men for thousands of years before the invention of the handgun. If gang members wanted to kill each other, the availability of guns is only one of many factors. I have lived in the community my whole life. I don’t recall hearing anything about the change in availability of hand guns, anyway. But I see great changes which have taken place due to the economy.

Your solution to restrict guns is a one dimensional approach to a complex issue. So you can take away guns, but leave people with little hope, resources, and substandard education to fend for themselves. As it is now, people are waiting for the houses to be abandoned then breaking in and taking the metal pipes for scrap. As I live next to the zip code with the highest foreclosure rate in the nations, pickings are plentiful. Now empty houses have big signs on them, saying; “we have no metal pipes”, to discourage break-ins. People have even stolen the guard rails off of highways, for the metal. I see that as a sign of the desperation of some people. There were no boarded up houses on this street and in my neighborhood, until the past three-four years. Now you can rarely even find a block without boarded up houses in this city.

And you are telling me about mf Bush gun policy.

You have the need to prove that you are superior, and can not acknowledge that someone else may have valid viewpoints also. Often people like that are often trying to over-compensate for other faults, like having a small dick. But that's just an example.

[DX4LIFE]

hes right Palin will eventually make hillary fade away

[DX4LIFE]

and sorry to all of those who believe the Liberal AP and MSNBC

and get things they claim are facts about Wasilla in Alaska

FYI I LIVE IN WASILLA,ALASKA

and all those negative statements are untrue

but then again most liberal dont vote on facts anyways no need to waste my breathe to teach people the truth

[DX4LIFE]

God- another reason why I don't go to Texas anymore.
After 8 years of a hick in office, this is all we need.

Glad to know she's never left the US either, only on Kuwait visit
and just got her passport LAST YEAR.

PINOCHIO PALIN

Her speech was FULL OF LIES.

THANK GOODNESS FOR THE AP.


Check out Pinocchio Palin's claims and the truth:

PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending … and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.

PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."

THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.

Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.

He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.

The AP report also showed how Palin's champions have exaggerated the Alaskan governor's 'acheivements':

MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply … She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.

THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state — by population.

MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. … She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.

THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.

FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."

THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."

THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.

Since 2006 and coincedentally the economy went to shit when the dems got control of the congress go figure

Palin is nothing like Bush but maybe if you personal knew and witnessed her views and things shes done you would realize this.

[DX4LIFE]

i hate to say it but i think the american populace is so stupid that they will buy into this repug shit and vote for mccccain/palin..the gop is really good at packagin...american markets respond to this..throw in the ol'fashion racist fears and there you have another 4yrs of fucked up governance..Excuse me

The Republican Party and Abe Lincoln set Black Men and Women Free

and were the first to set minorties in their delagation

The Liberals and the Democrats were the Confederates and kept u slaves
as well as many prominent Dems up till the early 90s were former KKK members

Liberal Americans and Dems prey on minorites for personal gain and exploit you dont be ignorant

[trish]

The Republican Party and Abe Lincoln

Sad to see how far the Republican party has fallen. You're the party of Strom Thurman. And don't forget McCain voted against the recognition of Martin Luther King.

[yodajazz]

Since 2006 and coincedentally the economy went to shit when the dems got control of the congress go figure

Palin is nothing like Bush but maybe if you personal knew and witnessed her views and things shes done you would realize this.

Let be realistic it takes a long time before any government economic policy has signicant effects on the economy. So blaming the 2006 six Congress is unfair. But to be fair, the bulk of the abuse from the Enron and Worldcom debacles, which happened on Bush's watch, took place mostly during the Clinton Administration.

By the way investors just won a 9 Billion dollar settlement, with other defendant cases still pending.

[chefmike]

i hate to say it but i think the american populace is so stupid that they will buy into this repug shit and vote for mccccain/palin..the gop is really good at packagin...american markets respond to this..throw in the ol'fashion racist fears and there you have another 4yrs of fucked up governance..Excuse me

The Republican Party and Abe Lincoln set Black Men and Women Free

and were the first to set minorties in their delagation


That was then, this is now. The GOP has grown increasingly more right wing and reactionary through the years, even to the point of selling it's political soul to the Religious Wrong. That's why Ridge or Lieberman wasn't given the nod, because the Religious Wrong forbade it. Under FDR, the Democratic Party became identified more closely with modern liberalism, which included the promotion of social welfare, labor unions, civil rights, and the regulation of business.


as well as many prominent Dems up till the early 90s were former KKK members

That's a total crock of shit.

"The only known former member of the Klan to hold a federal office currently in the United States is Democratic Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, who said he "deeply regrets" having joined the Klan over half a century ago, when he was about 24 years old. He joined as a young man in the 1940s, recruiting 150 friends and acquaintances from his small West Virginia town. In later life he said he stayed in the Klan only a short time about a year, but contemporary newspapers carried stories about a letter of his recommending a friend as Klaneagle in 1946. In 2005, when he published a memoir and was asked again about his life, Byrd said,"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times . . . and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."

Would you like to know what happened to the segregationist, racist members of the Democratic Party, pilgrim?

"In 1968, Alabama's Democratic former governor George C. Wallace ran for President on the American Independent Party ticket, and swept the electoral votes of the Deep South. The American Independent Party failed to keep its foothold in the South. Its 1972 candidate was John G. Schmitz, a John Bircher from California, whose strongest showing in the 1972 election was 10% in Idaho, but who did poorly in the South. Subsequent southern Dixiecrats running on the American Independent Party ticket included Lester Maddox and John Rarick, but these campaigns did not succeed either.

In the 1960s, the courting of white Southern Democratic voters was the basis of the "southern strategy" of the Republican Party's Presidential Campaigns. Republican Presidential Candidate Barry Goldwater carried the Deep South in 1964, despite losing in a landslide in the rest of the nation to President Lyndon B. Johnson of Texas. Johnson surmised that his advocacy behind passing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would lose the South for the Democratic party and it did. The only Democratic presidential candidate after 1956 to solidly carry the Deep South was President Jimmy Carter in the 1976 election.

Senator Strom Thurmond switched parties and became a Republican as a result of his support for the Barry Goldwater campaign in 1964. Jesse Helms also switched his party registration to Republican in 1970 and won a Senate seat in North Carolina in 1972.


Liberal Americans and Dems prey on minorites for personal gain and exploit you dont be ignorant
Take your own advice, pilgrim. Don't be ignorant.

[qeuqheeg222]

he seems to fergit it was up until the 80's that them suthrin folks realized that they wuz dixiecrats all those years when they should have been repugs for a good 80yrs.....an back to what someone else said bout the dems losin a sure thing-i dont know bout that but i know a lot of dumb americans like being told what to do and they vote republican like rush tells em to.......an sally palin is no threat to this patriarchy..hillary was because she was headstrong and came up with some controversial agendas that threaten the businessmans superiority complex....that clip of palin with the gun gives so many angry white guys hard ons in the backwoods because she comes across as "one of the boys"..not a threat to male ideology...or business models........trust me the fuckin repugs are gonna steal this one solely on this marketing swindle.....

[hippifried]

Oh ye of little faith...

[guyone]

The commies are going to lose again.

[trish]

I didn’t know Sam Webb’s party was running anyone this season. But yeah, sure, it’s a no-brainer that if they’re in race, they’ll lose.

[chefmike]

The commies are going to lose again.

Same old bushit fromp gumpone....