Are TG's by nature Anti-Feminists?

[Stoked]

yesterday, Allanah accused me of supporting an "Anti-feminist" candidate for President... calling me a hypocrite.

Well, that got me thinking about TG's, ... since most it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls". I looked up feminism and prostitution I found out there are 5 major types of feminism, most of which, except for Liberal Feminism, believe prostitution "perpetuates and reinforces the objectification, subordination and exploitation of women. "
http://www.feministissues.com/index.html

Speaking of objectification,

"Feminist scholars say that the objectification of women involves disregarding personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities, and women's reduction to instruments of sexual pleasure for men Examples of phenomena seen by some feminists as objectifying women include depictions of women in advertising and media, images of women in pornography, as well as images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, men evaluating women sexually in public spaces, and cosmetic surgery, particularly breast enlargement."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification

.... I think all of us are attracted by some degree to the girls here because of their hyper-femininity. In most cases they act more feminine than most GG's we know. They work very hard and spend a lot of money to look the way they do(thank god). But because they do, they become the embodiment of objectification.

So... Allanah, I do not know wether you are a "working girl", but I have heard you speak about your addiction to cosmetic surgery... to make yourself as beautiful as possible(paraphrase). Doesnt that, and your exploitation of TG's through your website and TG parties, and the desire to become as feminine as possible make you and many of the women here anti-feminist by default?

So I submit, Allanah is the hypocrite she has accused me of being, by going against the most basic tenets of feminism.

[SarahG]

Well, that got me thinking about TG's, ... since most it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls". I looked up feminism and prostitution I found out there are 5 major types of feminism, most of which, except for Liberal Feminism, believe prostitution "perpetuates and reinforces the objectification, subordination and exploitation of women. "
http://www.feministissues.com/index.html
.

Like with GGs it really depends on what crowd you're talking to/with. Here I'd say most girls don't see anything wrong with prostitution or adult entertainment however I would HARDLY say that is true all across the trans community.

My observation- which can be entirely wrong for all I know, is that the field is not seen in a good light within most of the trans support groups.

The issue is further muddied by the fact that certain flavors of feminism, like some of the older feminists, hate trans girls with a big passion because their philosophies don't know how to contend with transsexuality if "there are no biological differences between a man and a women.".... er, that didn't come out right because I seriously doubt anyone believes dna, reproductive systems, and brain structures are cross-gender consistent. Its more like for the most part there are no differences, and the ones that do exist don't translate into lifestyle, ideological, or otherwise notable differences from a societal perspective.

See the (er, one of) big issues here is that trans people (talking mtf obviously) say they're born mentally female, and that BECAUSE of that they need to transition in order to have a decent quality of life because these differences DO translate into tangible, real characteristics specific to either females. It would not be hard at all to find trans girls who have stories from their early childhood showing that even at their earliest memorable times, they "had the wrong mannerisms" for a guy, talked the "wrong way" stuff like that.... and claim biological (nature, not nurture) as the cause. I can't speak for anyone else but I know in my childhood I certainly had a lot of problems in k-12 from that, I'd have classmates, sometimes even teachers interrupt class to point out how I was sitting at times (yes, girls and guys sometimes sit differently), getting in/out of cars differently, stuff like that. And the whole transitioning thing, to some feminists, makes them think that we're basically saying that these differences cause having a "lifestyle" they say is totally sociologically inflicted (like wearing female specific clothes as a single example- yes I know there is more to transitioning than clothes but its the easiest example to draw upon, I am sure somewhere, out there- there is an old school feminist who flinches everytime they realize there are tgirls that wear skirts more than pants on a day to day basis).

My view, not that it really matters in this thread, is that there are real notable differences between guys and girls. It isn't hard to show brain use varies in performing tasks based on gender. But at the end of the day for most issues this is an irrelevant sidetrack, it really doesn't matter which side of the brain someone is using to do a given task, the bigger issue is that they can do the given task. The real issue, from a ts perspective, has nothing to do with those types of differences, it is about body dysphoria. Body dysphoria manifests itself in many, many ways. A lot of trans critics will try to see it as the same as ggs who think "they're tits are too small" but that is an oversimplification. Although I freely and regularly admit that with trans girls, we have all the insecurities that GGs have about their body PLUS all the ones that come from ts and a good chunk of that probably is (to a point) societal caused (like when it manifests itself in eating disorders- in either direction). But not all body dysphoria is like that, I can't say if my experience in this is unique, but until I had been on hrt for a couple years or so I couldn't recognize myself in mirrors or photographs :shrug

Then TVs come off as "unpleasant" to some because they're (not saying this is my view) seen as objectifying women and perpetuating gender stereotypes. I guess they see tvs as trying to stick to stereotypically female portrayals with their fetish, like (again not saying this is my view)* using fetish maid costumes, whatever. It would not be hard to find feminist essays finding these tv stereotypes offensive, and I've read at least one essay in the past from a feminist who IIRC was married to a tv and all upset that they would go overboard with the feminine stereotypes like, when (and only when) cding going and finding "cute things to gawk at" (as in stuff like puppies, not talking about sexual gawking).

This tension is re-enforced by the older feminists (older in philosophy, not talking about the person's age) who are almost (if not) as vocal in their distaste for us as the christian fundamentalists. When the trans bashing starts in lgbt circles, especially if its something publicly visible- it's almost always a "lumberjack lesbian" as other threads here have also observed. There is a reason why not all LGB groups have added the T to become LGBT groups. Even to this day philosophies that can't coupe with transgender issues deal with it by exclusion.

It does seem that trans activists are more likely to be feminists (often with the newer "wave" ideologies), to the point where its rare I see one who doesn't claim such a view. There's even tension in the community between those in adult entertainment and those that claim to be fulltime trans activists (try searching about this on the forum, it wouldn't be hard to find girls here stereotyping the activist, support group crowd as whiners who can't ever get laid and are always three emo steps from hurting themselves- again not my view).

In any case, I would almost even say there are as many self proclaimed trans feminists out there as there are trans sex workers. But like GGs, if you went looking I am sure you could find someone who is trans who meets any given ideology (and like GGs, some would be harder to find than others).



* For the record, I usually do not use disclaimers in my casual or formal writing EXCEPT when dealing to trans issues. But for some strange reason, whenever I talk about trans politics, theory or anything along those lines- if I don't use disclaimers there will always be a trans girl (this tends to be worse in the support groups) who will try to argue I'm saying something I'm not. It could be "I like potato chips" randomly in a post and someone will take offense to it and try to argue that I am ideologically wrong and need to be corrected before it does damage to the community :roll: . The closer I get to issues involving TVs, older transitioners, or feminism the more likely someone will take what I am saying the wrong way (maybe even intentionally).

[BlackMath]

The majority of the women on this board, from what I can gather through how they portray themselves, are post-feminists.

If you don't know what that is, a noobies example is Madonna. In that she used her sexuality as power over men. Rather than cutting all her hair off and wearing big hiking boots and shit like a 70's feminist, she used her embrace her femininity and sexuality and used it to her advantage.

[tsmandy]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

yesterday, Allanah accused me of supporting an "Anti-feminist" candidate for President... calling me a hypocrite.

Well, that got me thinking about TG's, ... since most it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls". I looked up feminism and prostitution I found out there are 5 major types of feminism, most of which, except for Liberal Feminism, believe prostitution "perpetuates and reinforces the objectification, subordination and exploitation of women. "
http://www.feministissues.com/index.html

Speaking of objectification,

"Feminist scholars say that the objectification of women involves disregarding personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities, and women's reduction to instruments of sexual pleasure for men Examples of phenomena seen by some feminists as objectifying women include depictions of women in advertising and media, images of women in pornography, as well as images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, men evaluating women sexually in public spaces, and cosmetic surgery, particularly breast enlargement."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification

.... I think all of us are attracted by some degree to the girls here because of their hyper-femininity. In most cases they act more feminine than most GG's we know. They work very hard and spend a lot of money to look the way they do(thank god). But because they do, they become the embodiment of objectification.

So... Allanah, I do not know wether you are a "working girl", but I have heard you speak about your addiction to cosmetic surgery... to make yourself as beautiful as possible(paraphrase). Doesnt that, and your exploitation of TG's through your website and TG parties, and the desire to become as feminine as possible make you and many of the women here anti-feminist by default?

So I submit, Allanah is the hypocrite she has accused me of being, by going against the most basic tenets of feminism.

Let me explain something to you- I am a feminist because I believe in equal rights for women, equal pay for women, the ERA, and I am pro choice.

I have exploited my body, my looks, my career on MY terms. My desire for plastic surgery or my appearance HAS NOTHING TO DO with being more attractive to men. If you really read or knew anythign about me, you would know that I have modeled my looks after my symbols of beauty and my beauty icons. The way I look is a matter of my personal expression. I have never conformed to any beauty ideal.

In fact, a lot of men criticize me for my surgical choices and many say I have gone too far. I HAVE NEVER ONCE ASKED A MAN, OR CONSIDERED A MAN'S (OR ANYONE'S OPINIOn for that matter) on my surgical choices.
I do what I want with my body, because it is MY body. As Cher once said, "if I want to put tits on my back, it's no one's business but my own".

Your attack on me through this post is just a way of running from the REAL issues of your political ideals.

LET US SEE:

You again are supporting a woman/party that is anti -gay, anti transgender, anti equal rights, anti pornography, YET you are on this board.

YOU ARE PART OF THE REPUBLICAN HYPOCROSY. You are the Palin's who are agaisnt sex education in schools yet end up with preagnant teenage daughters. YOU ARE THE MARK FOLLEY'S THE TED HAGGARD'S
that are are anti gay, vote agaisnt gay and trans rights, PREACH SODDOM AND GAMORRAH YET ARE FAGS.

I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass.

SO when you want to address your hyprocrosy- then you come talk to me.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR FOR THIS COMMUNITY EXCEPT SUPPORT PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HURT US?

When I was denied entrance to a gay club in Manhattan, I sued with the help of the transgender legal defense fund along with another ts and gg plaintiff and WON. They changed their policies and donated a large contribution to an AIDS charity.

I have always stood up and fought for my rights as a trans woman and for ALL WOMEN.

But I guess an in the closet (WHITE?) male , who makes more on the dollar than a woman does, who has more rights and privelages than trans or gay people have, someone who does not have to face job nor housing discrimation because if their gender expression would know nothing about that.

Get out of your closet darling.

[chefmike]

McSame and Palin would like to end a women's right to choose, as well as abolish many other personal freedoms that progressives have fought so hard to achieve in the US. They epitomize everything that is dangerous about the GOP and the Religious Wrong.

[elvis_p]

"Are TG's by nature Anti-Feminists?"

No, many, most, of the TGs I know are feminists in that they fundamentally support the rights of women, transgender or otherwise.

Your assertion that "most [TGs] it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls" is strikingly out of touch. I wonder what your in-the-real-world experience is with TG women. Is it erotically oriented message boards and porn?

Most of the ladies I have met over the years are educated, some very deeply, and represent very diverse professions: lawyers (one friend is both a former Judge in NYC and Navy pilot), a bank vice president, high-level information technology consultants, computer scientists and business owners.

To even hedge on whether or not Allanah is a 'working girl', and to only focus on this one point, reeks of bias: she strikes me more as a business woman, entertainer, promoter, even activist. When you embrace only the idea of 'working girl', you end up telling us far about youself than you do about any of the women here.

"They work very hard and spend a lot of money to look the way they do(thank god). But because they do, they become the embodiment of objectification."

Ack, so objectification is the ONLY goal or the ONLY result? Again, what I think is your inexperience with TG women is coming through loud and clear here. For TGs, men or women, cosmetic surgery is absolutely required as a part of their transition. Certainly not in every single case, but lets be real. To believe that a lady who has had cosmetic surgery "become[s] the embodiment of objectification" is, again, strikingly out of touch and further illuminates your ignorance of someone who is undertaking a change of their gender.

[Stoked]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

[Stoked]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave" feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

OH please, take the butt plug out of your ass and wake up and smell the coffee. You are full of it.

You tried to sling the mud at me and read me- so in turn exposed you and read you for filth. Grovel all you like.

[sexyshana]

"I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass. "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
most men we come in contact with are conservative Republicans and most LOVE butt plugs!!! :lol:
(just an observation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAjDqZHc6s

[SarahG]

No, I think many TGs are feminists in that they fundamentally support the rights of women, transgender or otherwise.

A very smart and creative lady named Riftgirl runs a site here, http://beingt.blogspot.com/, that you may find illuminating.

That is probably because at the most fundamental level the two issues have a LOT of overlap.

Trans rights cannot be separated from reproductive rights. One of the most basic issues we face is this issue of sterilization (through hrt, srs, or orchis). If we are living in an ultra conservative world where sterilization is "evil and illegal" then there is no way to access these trans medical treatments for someone who is not sterile through natural means.... just as GGs have the issue of contraceptive to worry about when politics tries to address "morality."

A lot of people will go and say that prochoice means you can chose "no to abortion" and "that's what Palin did" but that's at best a fallacy. If we are in a society which cares about freedoms when it comes to people's bodies, and their medical treatments -then the patient and the patient alone dictate what can or cannot happen to them.* Thus in a world that cares about freedom someone, like Palin's pregnant daughter (who is 18 iirc), can chose whether or not to have an abortion.... but someone like Palin can't make that choice for her threw prohibitions, government intervention, and other such civil liberty violations.


* This assumes the patient can consent to such procedures, and there are things that can prohibit someone from being able to do that- like being in a coma, being legally insane, stuff like that. However even here generally speaking age is not so much of an issue, and I'd argue most sane people will agree that a 5 year old wanting to see a doctor for physicals should not be kept away from doctors strictly because their parents are of a certain christian sect that "objects to doctors" and would "rather the kid pray for his health instead"

Even a coma is not necessarily a consent problem if the patient leaves a living will documenting what they'd want to happen in the event of various contingencies (but as it currently stands not all states will hold these documents to mean anything in the courts). We usually think of this in terms of the "right to die" debate, but a version EVERYONE should be familiar with is the organ donation programs. I have been on the DMV's organ donner list since I first got my license in 2001... when I first got on it I was 16, it did not require parental permission to get on the list- it was my consensual choice (as a minor) to do so alone. This is a separate issue than right to die, however I will say that in some situations they will try to keep parts of an organ donner's body alive on life support so it does not decay while awaiting organ removal.... which makes the issues closer than they immediately appear.

I was making my medical decisions at 10- even for deciding what be done in terms of plastic surgery (that my insurance company deemed elective and would not pay for), so I don't buy that 15 year old kids can't consent to stuff like contraceptive use when their parents disagree with the idea.

[SarahG]

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have.

HOWEVER, there are some things that hold true cross-ideologically.

I've never heard of a feminist (of any flavor) that didn't care about reproductive rights, equal pay, etc....

THUS when you get a candidate that wants to go out and solidify gender roles, and attack reproductive rights, using the gov as the tool to do so- then yes, supporting that candidate would be (among other things) anti-feminist.



Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

But see here's the thing, the republicans stand for a lot of issues (without doubt) like their position on the separation of church & state (related but not specific to trans issues, again there is overlap), gun ownership, and a whole host of other things.... BUT the republican party has made LGBT issues (or rather... their attacks on lgbt rights) the cornerstone of their party for more than 6 years at this point.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THEM BIGGER THAN LGBT ISSUES IN 2004. That is why 11 states, including battleground states like Ohio, got gay marriage bans. They mobilzed the christians to come out and vote, and they did it by targeting US.

[Stoked]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

OH please, take the butt plug out of your ass and wake up and smell the coffee. You are full of it.

You tried to sling the mud at me and read me- so in turn exposed you and read you for filth. Grovel all you like.

My reply had nothing to do with groveling. I was writing it before I read your post.

You have accused me of mudslinging and reading you... but that is what you did to me. You called me an anti-feminist... so I thought about it. I even looked it up to educate myself, just what is a feminist. I posted what I found. TS Mandy and others thankfully took time to add educational value, info I had not seen. So I read more. I responded to TS Mandy in a fair, thoughtful response.

Too bad that isnt enough for you.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

OH please, take the butt plug out of your ass and wake up and smell the coffee. You are full of it.

You tried to sling the mud at me and read me- so in turn exposed you and read you for filth. Grovel all you like.

My reply had nothing to do with groveling. I was writing it before I read your post.

You have accused me of mudslinging and reading you... but that is what you did to me. You called me an anti-feminist... so I thought about it. I even looked it up to educate myself, just what is a feminist. I posted what I found. TS Mandy and others thankfully took time to add educational value, info I had not seen. So I read more. I responded to TS Mandy in a fair, thoughtful response.

Too bad that isnt enough for you.

I actually called you MUCH more than an anti-feminist, all points you hace chosen not to address- yet I addressed yours.

As part of your misinformation. my friend Shana did remind me of Verorina Fancro, whom I have over looked. She was a 16th century courtesan and poet was considered one of the first feminist.

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

[Stoked]

"I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass. "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
most men we come in contact with are conservative Republicans and most LOVE butt plugs!!! :lol:
(just an observation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAjDqZHc6s

Hey now... I, and my conservative brothers were just chastised for doing nothing to support the TG community... and here you are stating that most of your "contacts" are conservative republicans...

Geeze, which is it, are we supporting you or not? And dont tell me we're in the closet any more than your liberal "contacts" At least we support you with our cash rather than looking for freebies or lip service

[AllanahStarrNYC]

"I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass. "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
most men we come in contact with are conservative Republicans and most LOVE butt plugs!!! :lol:
(just an observation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAjDqZHc6s

Hey now... I, and my conservative brothers were just chastised for doing nothing to support the TG community... and here you are stating that most of your "contacts" are conservative republicans...

Geeze, which is it, are we supporting you or not? And dont tell me we're in the closet any more than your liberal "contacts" At least we support you with our cash rather than looking for freebies or lip service

I ASK AGAIN
What have you done for this community, except support and be part of a political party that wants policies to harm us?

Stop avoidinf the issues. Own up to your hypocritical stance.

[Stoked]

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have.

HOWEVER, there are some things that hold true cross-ideologically.

I've never heard of a feminist (of any flavor) that didn't care about reproductive rights, equal pay, etc....

THUS when you get a candidate that wants to go out and solidify gender roles, and attack reproductive rights, using the gov as the tool to do so- then yes, supporting that candidate would be (among other things) anti-feminist.



Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

But see here's the thing, the republicans stand for a lot of issues (without doubt) like their position on the separation of church & state (related but not specific to trans issues, again there is overlap), gun ownership, and a whole host of other things.... BUT the republican party has made LGBT issues (or rather... their attacks on lgbt rights) the cornerstone of their party for more than 6 years at this point.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THEM BIGGER THAN LGBT ISSUES IN 2004. That is why 11 states, including battleground states like Ohio, got gay marriage bans. They mobilzed the christians to come out and vote, and they did it by targeting US.

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

[tsmandy]

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

As for TS not being feminist, well that is the argument that the old school lesbian separatists at the Michigan Wymmins Music Festival have used and they have been fought by a large coaliton of trans women outside the festival and lesbian GG supporters within. If the most radical element of the feminist movement (the man hating lesbian seperatist wing) is now largely comprised of trans allies, than it is safe to say than those seeking to criticize us are a dying breed.

Are there some TS that are misogynist and anti-feminist? Absolutely. Is the sex industry often in the same boat? Absolutely. Does that mean that TS sex workers as a group are not feminist? Not at all.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

As for TS not being feminist, well that is the argument that the old school lesbian separatists at the Michigan Wymmins Music Festival have used and they have been fought by a large coaliton of trans women outside the festival and lesbian GG supporters within. If the most radical element of the feminist movement (the man hating lesbian seperatist wing) is now largely comprised of trans allies, than it is safe to say than those seeking to criticize us are a dying breed.

Are there some TS that are misogynist and anti-feminist? Absolutely. Is the sex industry often in the same boat? Absolutely. Does that mean that TS sex workers as a group are not feminist? Not at all.

What I meant was that, you can be a feminist and be a sex worker-
opposing the argument that Stoked originally posed.

[Stoked]

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

As for TS not being feminist, well that is the argument that the old school lesbian separatists at the Michigan Wymmins Music Festival have used and they have been fought by a large coaliton of trans women outside the festival and lesbian GG supporters within. If the most radical element of the feminist movement (the man hating lesbian seperatist wing) is now largely comprised of trans allies, than it is safe to say than those seeking to criticize us are a dying breed.

Are there some TS that are misogynist and anti-feminist? Absolutely. Is the sex industry often in the same boat? Absolutely. Does that mean that TS sex workers as a group are not feminist? Not at all.

my point was never TG specific, but the debasing and exploitation of women (of any chromosomal mix), through prostitution and objectification and to that extent, that makes women who engage in those practices anti feminists, according the tenets of most feminist factions. It may not be your view, or Allanahs, and it may not be the most "current", (which does not mean the most accepted for of feminism) but it is nevertheless relevant.

[Stoked]

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?


I ASK AGAIN
What have you done for this community, except support and be part of a political party that wants policies to harm us?

Stop avoidinf the issues. Own up to your hypocritical stance.

Ahh, my old friend Bravefart... oops, yet another spelling mistake...

Still stalking me I see.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?


I ASK AGAIN
What have you done for this community, except support and be part of a political party that wants policies to harm us?

Stop avoidinf the issues. Own up to your hypocritical stance.

Ahh, my old friend Bravefart... oops, yet another spelling mistake...

Still stalking me I see.

Still avoiding the question.

[SarahG]

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

I never said that. I have always said that progress for any minority depends on moderate support.

But the republican party is not moderate support when they wave the flag of their revisionist "family values" to get votes. Picking Palin was directly a signal to show that these issues are major issues for the party still.

I really don't believe she was picked for being a girl, I think she was picked simply because of her stance on reproductive rights, lgbt issues, gun ownership and others. Her having a teenage, in-high school daughter who not only kept the kid... but is getting married in response to having it, is to show all republicans in the country that Palin not only says these things- but truly believes them EVEN IN PRACTICE. It was the Mccain camp that leaked to the media that the one daughter was pregnate btw- why? Because it was a power political move. Nothing more, nothing less.

Can support come from republicans? Sure, but it requires them sending a clear & loud message to their party leaders that "hey, these attacks on lgbt issues are immoral, unethical and need to stop"- until that happens every vote for a republican is a vote for someone trying to erode what little rights we have.

The republican party does not fundamentally HAVE to be this anti-lgbt, anti-reproductive rights oriented organization. The republican party used to be the party of the progressives, the party of the north- the party of Theodore Roosevelt. They were able to reverse roles with the democrats at the start of the 19th century, it is theoretically possible for such a ideological shift to happen again (for the worse OR for the better).





Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

thank you for that paragraph I put in bold, I truly believe you are spot-on here.

Although I do have to point out that the age issue shouldn't prevent minors from impacting decisions on certain issues, at certain times/conditions outside of sexual contact. We tend to think about reproductive rights as a post-age of consent issue but it's not (if that were the case sterilizing procedures would be illegal for anyone not of the age of consent).

[foolish99]

well i am a conservative republican and I love buttplugs.
andi love shana even more.

I think that any good conservative republican would do well with getting his/her butt plugged and spend some time with allanah and shana ....

[the_corner]

Is it wrong... if... after reading all of this thread, I feel kind of attracted to Mandy?

Nothing more attractive than a beautiful intelligent girl.

[chefmike]

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have.

HOWEVER, there are some things that hold true cross-ideologically.

I've never heard of a feminist (of any flavor) that didn't care about reproductive rights, equal pay, etc....

THUS when you get a candidate that wants to go out and solidify gender roles, and attack reproductive rights, using the gov as the tool to do so- then yes, supporting that candidate would be (among other things) anti-feminist.



Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

But see here's the thing, the republicans stand for a lot of issues (without doubt) like their position on the separation of church & state (related but not specific to trans issues, again there is overlap), gun ownership, and a whole host of other things.... BUT the republican party has made LGBT issues (or rather... their attacks on lgbt rights) the cornerstone of their party for more than 6 years at this point.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THEM BIGGER THAN LGBT ISSUES IN 2004. That is why 11 states, including battleground states like Ohio, got gay marriage bans. They mobilzed the christians to come out and vote, and they did it by targeting US.

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?


Jeff Gannon, is that you?

As to your question, Jeff...why don't you ask your fellow hypocrite Larry Craig...or Tom Foley...or Ted "jesus camp" Haggard?

[chefmike]

well i am a conservative republican and I love buttplugs.

If you are a conservative republican then you are a buttplug.

[Shining Star]

Don't think being a trannie automatically means the end of any possibility of having children.

Yes, hormones and various operations will render a trannie "sterile", but the way around this for a MTF is to bank her/his soldiers before undergoing any sort of treatment. IIRC, this recommendation is standard practice in many parts of Europe, not sure how each doctor who deals with trannies in the States handles the matter.

OTHO, there are a few pre-op trannies who have sired children as they are, one posted to this board on that fact.

So the issue remaining for a trannie would be the one facing infertile women, how to pay for treatments and or in this case a surrogate and possibly egg donation.

As for feminism, as other posters stated already, yes the movement is all over the place, partially because of the powerful social and economic issues that have yet to resolve themselves.

Yes, girls are now able to get the same education as boys, and by various laws cannot be kept out of colleges and universities, thus are now well represented in professions formerly dominated by men. However one just does not end up at Harvard Law School or Yale. It takes tremendous work and resources, things not always distributed equally in this world.

Also where one sees a woman's place in the world is largely shaped by one's own environment growing up. If one is the son/daughter of a middle class and above parents, both college educated and perhaps professionals, you are going to see things differently than someone growing up in the hood seeing some (not all) women using what they have to get what they need/want.

A true feminist would tell that "welfare" mother getting slapped around and or staying with a man who cheats on her and so forth, to pack her bags and move away. To the aforementioned woman, that may sound like "stupid" advice and she may even tell the feminist woman to mind her own business ( and allot of other things besides).

You see this within the trannie community where certain segments of the group will have nothing to do with the others. Remember just as there are "women" who think any use of sex and or feminine wiles to earn a living is debasing, there are also trannies who think the same thing. OTHO there are women and trannies perfectly happy using what they have (or can purchase/be made into) to get where they need to be/want.

It should be noted that historically women from "outside" the normal bourgeois circle (prostitutes, kept women, mistresses, etc), not only sided with feminist movements, but let support in terms of financial and other aid. Unlike married women, the later had the economic freedom that comes from earning their own money to do with it as they wished. Also unlike married women they were not fenced in by laws and customs that made married women the exclusive property of their husbands (which often meant there was only one position in a household, the lord and master's).

For a woman to make the same free choices as a man, she must be either free of her biology or able to control it. You see many older woman (who came of age during the first wave of feminism), at seats of power, but many of those same women are now 50 years or older, and quite often unmarried and childless. Young women today, having been told they can have it all, are finding out that simply isn't true. Nor are many willing to forsake love,marriage and children for a career. So they remain conflicted and torn. Some feminist look down at "stay at home mothers" as a relic of the pre Betty Freidan days. Housewives and mothers say, and rather justly where are all the benefits promised by the "revolution"?

Trannies to some extent can play both ends to the middle. There are girls who continue working as men, accruing all the benefits of their positions, and transform later in life. Others for various reasons (some not entirely even understood), transform at a young age, but find with limited to no employment skills, they have few if any options besides "working". A GG could always try and catch herself a husband, but that was not an option for trannies and gays until very recently.

Problem for the transgender community, is that there is no common bond between the diverse groups. Women on the other hand, be they rich, poor, educated, or dumb have one thing in common; being women. That little bit of biology means every woman has to give some thought to other women (and their children), because unless she has income of her own sufficient to provide, both she and her children can be cast down from a comfortable lifestyle simply upon the removal of her husband (by death, desertion, or divorce).

[SarahG]

Don't think being a trannie automatically means the end of any possibility of having children.

True but that doesn't change that these treatments do make people sterile.


OTHO, there are a few pre-op trannies who have sired children as they are, one posted to this board on that fact.

Every once in a blue moon i'll hear of a preop who got a gg knocked up unexpectedly assuming hrt = sterile (but hrt does not always, and not immediately cause sterility).



So the issue remaining for a trannie would be the one facing infertile women...

Not from a political standpoint, what we're talking about are the christian crazies (I say crazies because not all Christians believe this) who want to make all sterilization medicines, treatments and surgeries illegal (contraceptive, hrt, srs, orchis, etc.). Kind of a catch-22 if you think about it since this is the same political group that wants to keep single parents, gays, or trans citizens from raising kids.

Sure, GGs have the whole biological clock to think about and all GGs will eventually "go sterile" from age but we're talking about people who want control over their reproductive system, either to change it (srs) or to prevent it from working (birth control) just to name a few (this is not a complete list).

Bringing adoption into the mix...

The issues also vary somewhat in that adoption for trans citizens is openly discriminated against in many states (but then again so is being single, gay, or in a low SEC). Adopting here isn't easy, and it tends to be easiest for those "wealthy straight married white couples." Do other people adopt besides rich white married straight couples? Sure, but that doesn't mean the system treats everyone the same.

A family that 1) is married & straight, 2) has the money for surrogate mothers & fertility clinics (which, btw, the religious right also wants to shut down)* is going to be the family that will have the least odds of adoption problems. This is an oversimplification, the adoption industry (and it is an industry) has a hell of a lot of problems and its not always going to be smooth sailing even for the couple that "everyone is sympathetic to"


Yes, girls are now able to get the same education as boys, and by various laws cannot be kept out of colleges and universities, thus are now well represented in professions formerly dominated by men. However one just does not end up at Harvard Law School or Yale. It takes tremendous work and resources, things not always distributed equally in this world.

Oddly I have been seeing stats in recent years showing more girls, than guys are finishing college in America of late. However at the same time I've seen at least one study in the last year showing that guys and girls are still being paid differently.

Maybe its a sign things are going to change? I really don't know.



* The fertility clinics get a lot of people upset, even when they're "creating life" because of a whole host of things. Some people think its unethical/immoral to "play god like that" and then there are the ethical dialogs created by parents who want to use these clinics to "weed out" embryos that have genetic defects (diseases etc), or to make "designer babies" of whatever eye color, hair color, or sex that the parents want. Eugenics gets a bad rep from all the forced/nonconsensual programs governments (including the US) have tried in the past. I know if my family was known to have a nearly-always fatal genetic disease/condition that causes a very slow, painful death I'd not want to bring someone into the world who has it if it is preventable. But now I'm drifting offtopic...

[Shining Star]

Sterile is not the same as being infertile or past childbearing years.

Once one is sterile, either physically or chemically induced, it is often permanent. Though some techniques like tube tying and vasectomies "can" be reversed, the success rate is very low. A woman still may be able to carry a fertilised egg, implanted into her uterus to a full term foetus; however for a man things are a bit tricky.

Female hormones taken in the proper dose long enough will cause sterility in a man. While there is a chance a low sperm count will remain during hormone therapy and perhaps after hormones are discontinued, again, odds are very long indeed. I'm not saying it cannot happen, just the chances are very low of producing the amounts of quality sperm for normal reproduction.

Basically female hormones given to males causes cells within the testis to shut down. Shut down long enough they begin to atrophy (shrink), to the point that even when normal testosterone levels return they cannot "awaken". This affect can vary, but keep in mind a young TS who starts hormones before puberty has completed runs the risk of more damage than say a fully grown man.

Adoption is a whole other can of worms and yes is becoming harder for all, including "white straight wealthy couples", and for good reasons; way to many horror stories about children being abused, even when adopted by so called "perfect" people. States are now doing everything they can to make sure those who get their hands on children are totally correct.

Also regarding adoption, there are far too many couples, singles, etc chasing a small prime pool, white healthy infants and small children. Due to abortion and birth control, there simply aren't scores of such children filling orphanages anymore. Private adoptions for such children can be an emotional landmine and very expensive. This has lead to the growth of various reproduction services, which fulfil a specific need.

Not all states ban gays and or singles from adopting. While some states may not allow gays to adopt as a married couple would, some do, others will allow any single person to adopt long as they meet the qualifications.

The opening up of adoption (if you will), is in response to the large pool of children/infants that are in state care, and not always wanted by "wealthy white couples". That is minority children, older children and children with disabilities. Ironically gays are some of the first to step up and adopt these children that "no one else wants".

Methinks what gets the Christian Right and others upset about in-vitro and other reproductive services, is that they are loosing control over who gets to have a child. States can pass all the laws they want to stop gays or others some people think shouldn't have children, but places like California have pretty liberal laws regarding "baby making". To the point couples (gay and straight), as well as singles (again, gay and straight), long as they can pass muster and have the finances to pay, can go through with the thing.

Think trannies would pose a problem for such services if the girl was non-op and or living as sort of in between. Could see how it might be seen as a person who has not sorted their own life out, thus perhaps not a best candidate for "motherhood" at this time. OTHO now that gays are marrying in droves there has been an up-tick in reproductive services in Mass. and probably soon California, so we could see this played out soon enough.

As for fertility clinics "playing god", picking what your future child may look like is something all men and women do when they choose partners for reproduction. It is part of nature's programming. Don't see anything wrong with sitting down looking though a book of pictures, versus going to a bar, beach or other public gathering and meeting someone whom you choose to marry and or reproduce with.

[SarahG]

Adoption is a whole other can of worms and yes is becoming harder for all, including "white straight wealthy couples", and for good reasons; way to many horror stories about children being abused, even when adopted by so called "perfect" people. States are now doing everything they can to make sure those who get their hands on children are totally correct.

I guess the million dollar question there is which is statistically worse, leaving kids in the hands of the state or tougher screening (knowing it will keep even a few good parents from adopting). There has been some particularly bad foster care stories in my area of late, nothing to get into national news afaik, but nothing inspiring.

[vietboy]

YOU ARE THE MARK FOLLEY'S THE TED HAGGARD'S
that are are anti gay, vote agaisnt gay and trans rights, PREACH SODDOM AND GAMORRAH YET ARE FAGS.

I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass.

SO when you want to address your hyprocrosy- then you come talk to me.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR FOR THIS COMMUNITY EXCEPT SUPPORT PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HURT US?

...

Get out of your closet darling.
It is funny how people on HA Forum will scream and hiss that they are not gay.
Transwomen are not gay. Neither are the admirers!
Doesn't everyone know this!?!
People who say otherwise have been banned.

But as soon as there is an opportunity to label a HA Forum member with unpopular political opinions as gay, well then of course he is gay!
Doesn't everyone know this!

Insane.

Ron Paul in 2008.

[tsmandy]

Is it wrong... if... after reading all of this thread, I feel kind of attracted to Mandy?

Nothing more attractive than a beautiful intelligent girl.

aww shucks....

[Dinand]

Personally as a Dutch guy I would feel very sorry if you all would get stuck with Palin. I think she's pretty hot in a MILF kind of way but that's it. I mean being pro-hunting and anti-pornography that doesn't go with everything I believe in!