eros & arrests

[ts-lover.com]

just wondering, but on average, how often do girls who advert on Eros get arrested? Im assuming its purely luck and some or most hardly ever get nailed, no pun intended.

[hwbs]

i think it depends on the city....girls do network..please believe

[slinky]

once every 3.76 days.

[ts-lover.com]

thats about the same as the real Danny Partridge

[tsluva]

i think it depends on the city....girls do network..please believe

why does it depend on the city ? please explain.
what's the difference in law enforcement pinches on eros vs craigslist ?

[ARMANIXXX]

i think it depends on the city....girls do network..please believe

why does it depend on the city ? please explain.
what's the difference in law enforcement pinches on eros vs craigslist ?


Well,

Obviously you have some cities that are gonna be like Mayberry, to where Andy isn't gonna stand for hookers on his turf.

Then you have cities like San Fran....no.....take that back cause no city is like S.F., considering they are seriously getting ready to vote on legalized prostitution......but you get the idea.


http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/20/prostitution-to-be-legalized-in-san-francisco/

[Shining Star]

We've been down this path before, many times.

Most if not all large urban and even middle sized to small vice squads and or plain LE are very much aware of all manner and sorts of indoor prossing advertisements. CL, Eros,Exotics, private home page/website, newspapers, and so forth, it doesn't matter. Specific dedicated rooms are set up with computers, telephones, latest editions of papers and or magazines that feature prossing adverts, and LE works the telephones.

How or when a pross will get busted depends upon several factors, and while it may seem that certain advertiser venues attract more LE activity (Village Voice and Craigslist), it also could be because advertisers in such places are so blatant and or not careful enough to make LE's work so easy it is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Unlike streetwalking, which can be observed easily, indoor prossing requires more investigative work on the part of LE. Depending upon the location, setting up a sting operation requires lots of man hours and is not always successful.

Have known girls who advertised on Eros and got busted, known girls who advertised in the Village Voice and got busted, known girls who didn't advertise at all and got busted. Also know girls who advertise in several places and never got busted (yet). It is not so much where one advertises but how one handles one's business that really determines if one is going to met up with the Po-Po.

Eros.com knows fully well what it's advertisers are up to, hence the long and rather invasive model release and request for photo ID. Eros.com also make it very clear if they are served with legal papers to turn over any information about an account, not only will they comply, but will charge the advertiser a fee for doing so.

Just as an online advertisement for prossing serves to attract customers, it also informs LE. Despite what ad copy says,including those silly disclaimers about fees being only "for my time and nothing else.....", LE knows Hoes, hoe activity and hoe tendencies (to quote Ludacris). Again referring to the "phone and computer room", a simple phone call or email to an "advertiser" will reveal if not the truth, enough to establish doubt that the activities are legal. That is enough to keep LE interested, and the rest is simply a matter of time.

Craigslist and other free sites are getting so much LE interest and busts at the moment, mainly (IMHO) because so many amateur and or just plain dumb hoes advertise there and do everything to make LE's job so easy.

What many don't understand, is despite it being called "escorting" and considered a way of earning a living by many, to LE and everyone else it is criminal activity, and LE has vast powers (more so since 9/11/01) to monitor and track anyone suspected of engaging in criminal activity.

[slinky]

While I agree in general with what Shining Star wrote, it's not entirely true. There are some locales that have specifically targeted CL recently. One of the reasons is both the publicity and it being seen as a very fast growing "threat".

[Shining Star]

You basically have two sorts of prossies on CL: total newbies and or low level street walkers looking for a cheap way to advertise on the Internet, and pros tired of or no longer wish to pay Eros.com and other sites, and or perhaps looking to supplement their paid advertising. The later is true for some prossies that cannot pay for their Eros.com advert on time and must allow it to lapse even for a weekend. At least the CL advert could bring in some money.

Could also be that unlike Eros and Exotics CL is basically in almost every US city and or area.

Will grant you CL prossie arrests seem to get more media attention, but then again LE often does not release information on how they located other prossies who have been arrested. Well they might say, "in response to complaints by other area residents", or something like that.

In all honesty since many girls advertise in multiple places, and or work streets and parties, it may be hard to say just how the Po-Po found them. Often LE will often say when calling "I saw your ad....", not mentioning which advert, and not all prossies track clients via adverts.

As for CL and escorts who advertise their being a threat, again it is not likely even if CL were to go away or at least stop taking certian types of posts, indoor prossing is going to go away. Maybe workers without means and ID to advertise on Eros or other major sites would be put off, but most would probably go back to where ever they were finding dates before CL.

[brett4u]

Eros.com knows fully well what it's advertisers are up to, hence the long and rather invasive model release and request for photo ID. Eros.com also make it very clear if they are served with legal papers to turn over any information about an account, not only will they comply, but will charge the advertiser a fee for doing so.



I remember reading in another forum that eros servers are located out of the USA and not subject to US court orders. Do you know of cases where eros has actually responded to a request from LE and charged the advertiser?

[Shining Star]

Eros.com knows fully well what it's advertisers are up to, hence the long and rather invasive model release and request for photo ID. Eros.com also make it very clear if they are served with legal papers to turn over any information about an account, not only will they comply, but will charge the advertiser a fee for doing so.



I remember reading in another forum that eros servers are located out of the USA and not subject to US court orders. Do you know of cases where eros has actually responded to a request from LE and charged the advertiser?While one does not "know" if Eros.com has ever been served with court papers regarding information on it's activities, or an advertiser, it stands to reason the threat is real enough for them to have revised their model release over the years. One could always to a court record database search to find out for sure.

Regardless of where Eros.com has it's servers located, (and not so sure they are located overseas), the company is based in the United States, and subject to federal and various local laws.

Most persons charged in prossie cases take a plea or plead guilty as charged. Even high profile ho's such as those involved with the recent Spitzer bust for the most part plead guilty (a fourth person,the booker just plead guilty today), though some choose to go to trial.

Though a district attorney could ask Eros.com to turn over information in regards to a criminal matter, trying to link a prossie to her/his advert, there are more serious matters Eros to worry about.

One is the recently expanded US law regarding model photographs and compliance that all models are of legal age if shown in "pornographic" material and or websites. In fact Eros modified their photograph policy awhile back saying they would no longer accept certain photographs.

Eros.com and the others are also concerned by copyright violation issues, such as photographs submitted of another person without their consent. Believe it or not, there was a time when prossies (mainly trannies), were submitted photographs taken from Victoria Secret (Photoshopped to change the face and or head), to Screw magazine, until certain models and the company itself took legal action.


What Eros, Exotics and other media forms that take escort adverts have to worry about is crossing the line into promoting prossing, which is a felony in most US states. Even prossie review sites such as TER, make it quite clear their "stories" are posted by "hobbyists" and so forth.

Prostitution is about behaviour, in most states agreeing to and or taking money in exchange for sexual services fits the definition of the crime. In terms of a bust and a DA requesting information from Eros, or any other advertiser, they may wish to know who paid for the advertisement and any other information on file linking the advertiser to the person arrested, such as perhaps the copy of a drivers license or other documents Eros requests from models. In the case of a person running a service, again a DA might want to know who is placing adverts. In all cases LE might wish to know where the funds come from to pay the advertiser (credit card, check, money order, wire transfer, etc), which can lead to other interesting paths.

[slinky]

Having your servers offshore doesn't mean shit if you have offices and records (and bank accounts) in the US.

[brett4u]

Having your servers offshore doesn't mean shit if you have offices and records (and bank accounts) in the US.

Of course records in the US are subject to subpoena, but having an office in CA does not give a California court access to data stored in the Netherlands.

Eros is hosted in Denmark. I have no idea what data is stored at the local offices, where the cc trans are done and where their money is, but those locations do matter.

[Shining Star]

No, you are wrong there.

It does not matter where information is stored, Eros is owned and operates within the United States. In case you haven't been paying attention recently, the attorney general of New York State, basically shook down several Internet service providers to remove "child porn" content from "ALL" of their servers, regardless of where they are located. If they were so sure any conent was or could be moved out of NYS and USA and thus out of reach of such laws, don't you think at least one would have brought up the arguement?

Also something like 90% if not all the world's Interent traffic passes through the United States, and even if it didn't portions must for those in the USA to access data. If Eros was say allowing pictures of minors to be used in "pornographic" ways or for prossing, and the US DA or any state DA served them with papers, having their servers located in either Denmark or the moon isn't going to help them from not complying.

If Eros.com was based in Denmark, and did totally no business within the United States, even to the point those within the USA couldn't access the site, then things might be different.

Finally information does not simply leap onto servers. It has to be input some where and some how, especially with advertisements. There also must be a paper trail of said information somewhere, Eros just doesn't take advertisements then throw supporting documents away.

[brett4u]

I am not sure how this got on to child porn. Everyone, even the the strongest defenders of the XXX business are against child porn. Getting ISPs to block it was not a tough sell. The ISPs did agree to wipe their servers of child porn, servers they control located in the USA. Many of large ISPs also agreed to block usenet forums because that is where much of the trading goes on. Those agreements do not affect offshore hosters. The articles I read clearly stated these facts.

Let's get back on track. Craigslist regularly provides data to LE without a court order or subpoena. They have admitted this in several interviews.

Does anyone know of a case where eros provided data to LE (other than the pages publicly available of course)?

[slinky]

not only is Shining Star correct as usual, but she left out that the fucking credit card processors and banks are in the US, unless you think Eros is getting from Verotel, etc. and forcing girls to get such credit cards in order to advertise? please. or if they take cash, where does the transaction take place?

Look, this isn't like some internet transaction where we could try to pretend everyone isn't in the US. Eros has physical offices all over the US, takes credit cards, checks, cash, etc. in the US. Transacts their business in the US. And you'll notice that even companies that have a much better argument than Eros (like, everything, offices, etc. is outside the US) STILL COMPLY WITH US2257. Now, why do you think that is?

This is like the various spurious notions of putting "this is not a solicitation" in your ad, or asking "are you a cop?", etc. offer any real protection. These are all ideas cooked up by people who WANT things to be different. Do you know what these people are often referred to as?

"The defendant".

[brett4u]

Shining Star's characterization of the situation in NY was not accurate and did not show the US has juristicion overseas.

Offshore operations are not obligated to comply with 2257 and are not subject to any of it's penalties, but some sites do comply and here is the reason: Let's say an end user in the US downloads images from an offshore site that could possibly be considered child porn. US courts can not prosecute the offshore operation, but they could go after the end user who d/l'ed the image to their computer. The offshore site complies with 2257 in order to offer some defense (even if it's only a fig leaf) to the users in the US.

Everyone knows LE can get to to data (credit card trans, ...) that is physically located on US soil. No one has disputed that.

If a cop busts a working girl for solicitation they aren't going to put much effort into getting more details - they have what they need when the arrest was made. A credit card trans for an ad won't matter. If LE thinks this girl is working with at least one other person they may try to make a pandering case. This is where things get scary. LE will try to get as much data as possible (including e-mail correspondence & source IPs) and follow each trail looking for a larger organization. Even if they don't find enough for trial, the process is horrible and expensive for the target(s).

If the girl is working off craigs and using a yahoo e-mail, everything is available to LE. If at least some of the data LE needs is located in an offshore data center it DOES LIMIT WHAT LE HAS ACCESS TO.

[slinky]

You don't know what you're talking about: Girl visits NY Eros. Girl pays by credit card. Eros-NY enters info into computer. Info goes to offshore server. If any LE shows up at NY_Eros with a warrant, and NY -Eros tries to say "sorry, we processed everything here but all the information 'lives' offshore so we're not turning it over", a physical person at Eros-NY is going to sit in lockup until the information gets produced. And no NY Judge is going to let him off because he claims that the records for a transaction done in NY are shipped somewhere else.

And as far as 2257, if an offshore company wants to do business in the US, they comply with 2257. And if you think it's to protect their customers in the US, you've got an interesting view about the altruism of internet porn merchants*. They do it because no matter where their servers are, if the customer is in the US and the credit card company is in the US, the transaction is in the US. They don't comply with 2257 to give their customers a fig leaf, they do it because they don't want the US Gov't to seize their assets in the US and they don't want Visa/Mastercard to stop processing their transactions. So, as long as they are sitting in their home country, having the offshore servers might offer some protection against criminal prosecution. But that only works for people who aren't sitting in the US with offshore servers, which is the case here.

I'll give you a concrete example of what happens in reality: on more than one occasion, foreign nationals have been arrested in US airports on layover for being involved in different aspects of internet gaming (like sports betting and online poker) even though their servers and basically entire companies were located in other countries. Happened to the Neteller guys, happened to Peter Dicks of Sportingbet and others.

And in adult, there's been a history in this country of guys getting arrested in Adult who produced things which were perfectly legal where they produced them, but someone bought one in some backwater Westbumblefuck place and they get their asses hauled in. Rob Black got really lucky, most of the attorneys I spoke to at the time thought he wasn't going to. And everyone knows the states you have to blacklist if you want to ship DVDs.

But to be clear, it's not that the US has jurisdiction overseas. They don't need it. As long as the transaction is going on over here, thinking that having your servers overseas with people and assets in the US is enough is leaving your ass hanging out. people always think of clever shit, like disclaimers in prostitution ads, or asking for "roses" offers certain protections. But Judges, prosecutors and juries aren't morons. You try to pull BS like saying "the records are offshore so we don't have to give them to you", they are going to smack you upside the head and it's going to hurt. They will do creative things like say since you're not producing the records, the IRS will do some 'lifestyle audit" and calculate how much US taxes you should have paid and then prosecute you on Tax Evasion (not a theory, it's already been done).

So, again to be clear, you are correct that the US won't be able to serve a subpoena on foreign soil and grab the servers, but it doesn't mean that you're protected.

* disclosure: I happen to be one.

[Shining Star]

It does not matter for Ho'ing purposes, and or the prosecution of same weather the data is on servers in Paris, Texas or Paris, France; there has to be hard copies of said data within the USA for a company like Eros (pictures, ID, forms, etc), all of which can easily be obtained by LE one way or another.

Also as I stated, for your average low level prossie bust, LE and the DA's office probably has everything they need to go to trial (if things ever went that far, 98% of the time prossies take a plea deal). OTHO if say the DA was prosecuting under laws some states have that allow repeat prossing and or other low level arrests to be bumped up to low level felony, then things might be different.

Again, as one also stated, if there is something bigger than just a single girl working, like the recent Spitzer and other high profile agency or high earning girl, and the DA wants to tack on money laundering charges, getting records from Eros or any other online advertising site would reveal information such as where money came from to pay ads.

In case anyone hasn't been keeping up, post 9/11/01 laws give LE and the FBI a wide berth to listen in on all manner and sorts of telecommunications merely because they "suspect", someone is up to something

Contrary to popular belief, LE just does not randomly show up and do indoor prossing busts. Because the suspected criminal behaviour is taking place behind closed doors, many steps have to be taken to be reasonably sure (both for civil rights protection, and protection of officers doing the raid), of what is going on inside. To that end you can be sure by the time LE sends the Dodge Caravan, Vice Squad is almost 100% certain of what is going on. You can see this by reading criminal complaint of prossing cases.

The only thing that will save a prossie once the PoPo arrives is if she or he has enough smarts to catch on and run game. Even then LE won't make the arrest at that time, but make no mistake that does not mean the prossie is off the hook. LE will keep monitoring and keep trying, and sooner or later the bust will happen.

Whether because of tough economic times, or simply stupidly, it seems of prossies on CL are total armatures or don't care about being busted. This may account for the high number of arrests for adverts on Craigslist. You've got everything from 15 year old teens to 60 year old grandmothers working CL, and by many accounts their adverts simply scream prossing. As Ludacris says if you doing ho activities and ho tendencies, you are going to attract the attention of LE.

I've said before and will say it again, it is not CL or even Eros that gets a prossie busted, but their own criminal behaviour. That is what the laws regarding prostitution are about, and what LE has to observe for there to be a case. PoPo can record all the conversations they want, subpoena all the records they want, and so forth, however unless LE can get a prossie to agree to take funds for sex, there isn't a case. Pandering, promoting and the rest are a different story, which is why of everyone involved in the Spitzer scandal, Mr. Spiter and the prossie are the only ones not going to prison at the moment.

[slinky]

If the girl is working off craigs and using a yahoo e-mail, everything is available to LE. If at least some of the data LE needs is located in an offshore data center it DOES LIMIT WHAT LE HAS ACCESS TO.

And to (as usual) echo Shining Star: LE doesn't go after any ho's Yahoo account. It's irrelevant. If they are going to use emails, they aren't the one's between the girl and her clients they are going to use. It will be emails where they were one of the parties. So no matter where the email server is, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN COPY.

You know, even if they grabbed some email from some ho to her client setting up a date, etc, and another one from the guy thanking her, etc., you know what that's going to get them? Fucking zero. Hell, they don't need to crack anyone's email to get all of that type of info anyone would ever want, it's publicly available on sites like one of mine and a hundred others. but 'admitting" to a past act of prostitution on the internet ain't getting nobody nothing. Hell, it's gotten to the point where I've got fucking streetwalkers cyber strolling guys and telling them what street they are going to be on and what they are going to be wearing that nite!!!!!!!!

[brett4u]

Yes, LE does not care about the targets data if they are busting an individual for solicitation. But as I said previously, LE will go after the targets data when they smell a larger case (ex: pimping & pandering).

Girls screen and sometime still get caught. Does that mean screening is useless and should not be done? Of course not. Screening reduces the chance of getting stung. The same applies to the intelligent use of your data.

Anyone involved in this hobby should understand where their data is stored, who has access to it, how it could be used against them. There are several powerful and easy to use encryption tools available for free that many on this board should be using. It is not accurate to dismiss this advice as silly folklore akin to using "roses" instead of money or "...this is for my time only..." Being careful with your data trail, like screening, is not a "get out of jail free card" but it could prevent a simple pros case from turning into something bigger. A few anecdotes describing people who have been stung does not negate these points.

[Shining Star]

Screening is all well and good, and no one is saying anyone shouldn't, but knowing what one is screening for is obviously a huge help. There are prossies that screen to the point of making men jump through hoops, and they still get busted.

Elliot Spitzer got busted because he failed to follow is own advice about not putting anything down in emails. Smart prossies and workers use pre-paid cell phones and do very little emailing.

There is one thing to remember, while data encryption software is good, there comes a point where having lots of screening tools and or devices can be used to prove a case that one must be engaging in some sort of illicit activity.

When it comes to big fish and or certian providers, it really almost comes down to a cat and mouse game with LE. LE knows that is going on, and the prossies/service know they know and always try to stay one step ahead. So LE builds a better mousetrap

Have heard it right from LE's mouth, most information either comes from a provider themself, either directly or indirectly, or someone who knows drops a quarter. Can't Tell you how many times one has been walking behind a trannie ho and hearing her scream into her cell phone "Huhney I told you it's $$$ an hour, my corner is .....".

[slinky]

Let me put this a different way: exactly what data would you put on your off-shore servers that would offer you vastly superior protection, and exactly what does it protect you from?

[vorga]

bump

[Yoite]

Go on. . .

[envivision]

[/quote]


Then you have cities like San Fran....no.....take that back cause no city is like S.F., considering they are seriously getting ready to vote on legalized prostitution......but you get the idea.


http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/20/prostitution-to-be-legalized-in-san-francisco/[/quote]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

How did that go? It got defeated, right?

Any plans for a new vote in 2010.?

If CA will be voting on legalizing weed next year, I don't see whay not vote on this issue too. Come on friggin Arnorld, do something good in your life once !!!!

[R. Himmeter]

In some parts of the country, these things - arrests of providers/prostitutes, and the like - always seem to happen more frequently around election time...

Years ago, when I lived in ATL, you could almost mark your calendar by it.

[Richctdude]

escorts should be legal it is a victimless crime

[zocco]

i don't want this to sound anti US but when are they going to wake up and make it legal
it has been legal here for years

[Yoite]

In some parts of the country, these things - arrests of providers/prostitutes, and the like - always seem to happen more frequently around election time...

Years ago, when I lived in ATL, you could almost mark your calendar by it.

. . . . *dies* Old picture of me for your avatar...