Question about escorts & time...

[Str8ninterested]

I have a question for any of the girls here who do escort work...

If a guy (first time you've seen him) chooses to $pend 2 hours with you, and he cums quickly...what do you do? Do you have him leave? Do you let him stay until you cum (if you cum with clients)? Do you give him a refund on hour 2?

Lets say he wants to stay and use the full 2 hours, and (hopefully) have the two of you cum multiple times; would you do that or would it cost him an hour's donation per orgasm regardless of time?


I've been contemplating seeing a girl, but if I cum quickly, I want to know if it's one and done. Guys, please feel free to talk about your experiences if you've spent time with a lady.

If you've got a specific suggestion for a girl in the NYC area who'll top/bottom, give/get head in a session, lemme know!

[Str8ninterested]

Thanks Cherliyn! :D I was thinking specifically about Jasmine Thai :oops:

http://jasminvip.com/home.html

I think her rates are $250/hr

has anyone seen her before?

[tsntx]

rotflmao at you even asking if they offer a refund on hour 2

lmao

oh my gahd!!

youre hillarious!

great post!

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

YMMV

Your
Mileage
May
VARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Str8ninterested]

yeah, that line was like 98% joke :D



I was moreso asking about multiple pops...do any of you girls personally go for that, or is that a no-go?

[TsJennifer]

I have a question for any of the girls here who do escort work...

If a guy (first time you've seen him) chooses to $pend 2 hours with you, and he cums quickly...what do you do? Do you have him leave? Do you let him stay until you cum (if you cum with clients)? Do you give him a refund on hour 2?

Lets say he wants to stay and use the full 2 hours, and (hopefully) have the two of you cum multiple times; would you do that or would it cost him an hour's donation per orgasm regardless of time?


I've been contemplating seeing a girl, but if I cum quickly, I want to know if it's one and done. Guys, please feel free to talk about your experiences if you've spent time with a lady.

If you've got a specific suggestion for a girl in the NYC area who'll top/bottom, give/get head in a session, lemme know!

Different girls have different policies in that regard. My advice is if you cum quick just go see her for an hour and save the $$$ and if you like her offer her more for a second hour or go back and see her again another time.

Another idea, JRK OFF b4 u go see her...

[Bing147]

Ask. There are plenty of girls who will offer MSOG. (Many shots on goal) but some don't. Just ask ahead of time. Personally, I was with a girl once (a gg) and I had been having a competition with my friend to see how long we could go without doing it. We'd bet 200, I won and I was rewarding myself, lol. I probably went... 3 times in an hour. And I could still get it back up no problems. Luckily I made sure that was okay with her, lol.

[justatransgirl]

Note, after reading the comments I re-edited this to revise my point and continue this post on a later page.

I try to fit everyone's needs as much as possible. I really don't like to be a clock watcher. But I was running into problems where 1 hour dates were running 1.5-2 hours, on me and that's not fair.

I find that probably 90% of the guys I date are one shotters, so it's really never been an issue.

As for a refund, ask my pimp... ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha... :-)

And of course nothing is etched in stone. I'm always open to special requests and I'm happy to adjust things to meet my guests needs. I'm here to please you, so tell me what pleases you!

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[slinky]

No! Wait! Better yet! Would you ask a restaurant to refund your money if you couldn't finish your food? :roll:

And how many people here would ever go back to a restaurant which didn't let them take home what they didn't finish at the restaurant??

[slinky]

"An hour" has long been a euphemism in this business for one pop. It's really only recently that many guys think an hour should be an hour (hey, you don't even get an hour for your hour at your shrink!). As has already been mentioned, you can ask but what you aren't being told is many girls won't tell you because they won't discuss anything regarding sex on the phone. In my experience the vast amount of TS escorts mean "as soon as I can get you to cum" as the definition of an hour. However, things change when you say two hours. While the lack of clarity about what one hour means, there's certainly no getting away with trying to say a two hour appointment is done if you pop in 10 minutes. And while everyone is having a good laugh at the concept of a "refund", you don't have to ask for a refund for money you haven't paid, and for the same reason a lot of girls won't talk about stuff on the phone, they also don't take payment up front. In fact, while not universal, there's a fairly high correlation between the type of girls you're being warned off of and those who demand payment up front.

All that said, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to even try to book a 2 hour appointment with a totally unknown quantity to begin with: what if any number of things make you not want to be with her for 2 hours? The YMMV stuff is bad enough, but when a girl is known to have certain traits.........

Anyway, here's where the "reviews are worthless" comments are way off: if you know you need to spend 2 hours with a girl to have a good time, you need some way of researching her other than reading her advertising hype.

[slinky]

I really don't like to be a clock watcher. But I was running into problems where 1 hour dates were running 1.5-2 hours, on me and that's not fair.

I know you like TER, but the single biggest downside to the review sites (from the girl's perspective) is that now you've got "celebrity reviewers" (and a lot who think they are). Girls are so afraid of being labeled as "clock watchers" (which guys always interpret as shorting them time) that they let guys get away with some BS.

I did an informal survey of "internet touring" GG working girls about a year ago: The first question was "When a guy books an hour with you, how long does he usually expect to stay?". The overwhelming answer was "an hour" (duh). But the follow up question was "When a big board poster' books an hour with you, how long does he expect to stay?", you'd be shocked at how many girls said "An hour and a half to two hours".

[kaientai]

got to agree with what sweet cherri said. She is exactly what i look for in a paid date. unfortunatly she is probably 1 out of 10 in that respect.

[BeardedOne]

Good posts from both sides of the field.

I'm one of those management types that wants the time promised for the fee paid. If I pay for two hours (And I typically do, because I like to get to know the gurl a bit), I expect two hours. Within reason of course, as I understand she may have another appointment afterwards and would be considerate of her needing a bit of a buffer period between guests.

On the other hand, I have a tendency to 'pop' quickly if I am with someone new and, as I date so rarely these daze, everyone is 'new' to me. If I got the bada-bing-bada-bang-seeya-wouldn't-wanna-beya treatment right after the fireworks, and had an hour and a half of time left on the clock, you can bet I'd be a bit torqued about it.

I've been fortunate that the gurls I've been with were both nice and professional, with 'professional' not only representing what they do for money but that they do it =well=. In each case they were patient, unhurried, polite, and didn't give me the bum's rush after the pop. In fact, one was actually surprised that I wasn't halfway dressed and out of the room already, as that is the experience she has had with many of her clients. "They pop a nut and suddenly don't want to talk anymore" she said with a shrug. She seemed puzzled that I wanted to hang out with her.

As was said above, your mileage may vary. If a gurl likes you and has an open slate, she may let you slip into overtime a bit. If she's booked solid, you can expect a little toe-tapping and fidgeting when Mickey's big hand gets closer to the twelve.

As for the gurl you are planning to see, discuss what you can beforehand and clarify it at the door. She needn't worry about discussing sex for money if all you're trying to do is ascertain that if you're paying for two hours, you expect to be with her for two hours. If it's anything like my times, you're not going to be getting to much heavy sport in the first hour anyway.

Good luck and report back. :)

[BiancaStJames]

I offer mulitiiple pops but my rate does go up for that..

Not all girls offer that tho... different policy's for everyone

[sucka4chix]

2points:
1st- no matter what any girl here might think EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT! (seems I say this over and over in every thread). There is no single thought process for every t-girl. Not every girl uses the same code. I have a friend in O-town who gave a guy a refund because she just wasn't feeling him. I know girls in the ATL who want $$ if you go to their apartment and don't want to follow thru because it's a pig sty.
I had a fave from the ATL who I used to pay for an hour and stay til whenever! They're all different. Ask what you want to know--- even if you don't get the question answered, you gain insight from how they handle it!

2nd- as mentioned DONT PAY FOR TWO HOURS! Good grief, an hour is usually way too long! But if you happen into an extra hour, pay for it then. I think paying for 2 hrs up front for someone you've never met is foolish.

[BeardedOne]

2nd- as mentioned DONT PAY FOR TWO HOURS! Good grief, an hour is usually way too long! But if you happen into an extra hour, pay for it then. I think paying for 2 hrs up front for someone you've never met is foolish.

I agree with this to a point. In my case I already have a handle on who I'm meeting in advance. I tend to 'meet' them online through forums and chat and work my way up to the date. Because I travel, as do they, a lot is subject to schedule and geography. For each one I've had the pleasure to meet in person, there's a number that just didn't click on those counts.

I've done the one-hour thing and it just doesn't work for me. In fact, the gurl with whom I only spent that single hour wound up being a day-long adventure the next time I got to see her. :D Perhaps the single hour is good for a test-drive. ;)

[tstv_lover]

Thanks for the interesting and informative posts here. Let me add my $0.02 worth.

I've only paid for 3 girls.

1st time was all rather rushed, not sure I was doing the right thing, not particularly comfortable - pop and go time.

2nd was with a wonderful girl who took time (didn't check the clock but certainly over 90 mins). I met her again a few times and we talked about her family, politics, etc, etc and had amazing sex. Always only charged for 1 hour but usually spent 2-3. Sadly she disappeared from the scene.

3rd time was with 2 girls on business trip. Didn't feel right from the start and found a credit card stolen when they left the hotel. I pulled on clothes, rushed out and demanded the card back - which they reluctantly provided.

Moral of the story? Find someone who you get on well with and stick with her.

[tstv_lover]

I should add that having a LTR with tgirl is 100 times better than paying for it, but recognise that not possible for all and is a completely different topic!

[slinky]

it is the TIME that he is paying for NOT sex. If you are charging him for sex YOU ARE A WHORE plain and simple and I hope you are proud of that. Personally I do not nor have I ever negotiated sex for money, sex is a bonus during a session with an exotic entertainer and if you are clearly looking to just buy sex than go to a prostitute and grab that shit for like $20...

GMAFB.

[2754tim]

Try and see the same girl,"become a regular".Less bullshit,tension,you'll
get to know each other. Physically and emotionally,you want to feel comfortable with her and vice versa. You get what you pay for. Go cheap
and for the most part you'll get cheap. Check The Erotic Review and Shemale
Escort Review. Go in the Chat Room and ask. Two hours? I wouldn't,but hey
knock yourself out. Give the girl a tip,buy her a gift once and awhile.
What goes around comes around.Refunds? You aren't serious. Like JWB said
YMMV.Some guys love certain women who other guys won't go near.
Be a gentleman,be safe and have some fun

[BeardedOne]

GMAFB

I've missed this one. "Great Minds Afford Finer Booty"? :?:

[2754tim]

Sweet Cheri Wrote:


SweetCheri wrote:
it is the TIME that he is paying for NOT sex. If you are charging him for sex YOU ARE A WHORE plain and simple and I hope you are proud of that. Personally I do not nor have I ever negotiated sex for money, sex is a bonus during a session with an exotic entertainer and if you are clearly looking to just buy sex than go to a prostitute and grab that shit for like $20...

Cheri,I Gotta Go With Danny On This One,GMAFB

Look,We're All Adults,If I Go To An Escort And She Wants To Call Me A Client,Trick,Date,John Or Whatever....I'm A Big Boy.I Know The Drill.It Is
What It Is.No Big Deal To Me.And,This Isn't Personal.Please Don't Take It
As Such.Like I Said,We're All Adults Here (Hopefully) And We All Know What
We're Getting Into. So,Let's Be A Little Real Here.

[justatransgirl]

Ok - an updated response.

Cheri makes some good points as do others.

First re Danny's comment about review sites. Yes, they are a two edged sword. They do help guys looking into higher end girls decide who they want to see and help out with their hard earned money.

And BO and others have good points in that they maybe don't want to spend a lot of money on someone they may not click with. But that's more of a budget planning issue. I personally have never ever had a guy offer to pay me extra because they decided to stay longer. Though sometimes tips could be considered coverage for extra time. But a tip's a tip, time is time.

The problem with time vs pops in the USA anyway, I think is a result of the Internet and how higher end "call girls" work vs street action.

If you go to TJ, you find a bar girl and get 30 minutes and the bouncer tosses your ass out unless you feed the meter. There are also higher end girls online that work similar to in the US at US prices.

If you go to Thailand (as I understand it) you can get girls to spend the night or longer for very small amounts, because of a huge level of competition and lower local costs of living.

If you cruise the "boulevard" in many US cities you might get car sex from a crackhead for $20.

In the past there were two options to get laid. You went to a bar or the street and found a girl, covered your wallet, and got one pop. Her "job" was to drain the lizard as fast as she could and if you wanted another pop you paid again.

Or you went to a magazine or agency and hired an "escort" / "call girl" for a lot more money. This still often wasn't GFE - and again unless arrangements were made when you popped she left unless it was an actual "escort" companionship date, dinner, etc at very high end. But generally she wouldn't show up with needle marks or missing teeth.

Then along came the Internet and "escort" sites. In the old days it was high end tech savvy girls and geeks who connected online. The guys had plenty of spendable income and the girls charged a premium and were worth it. they charged by the hour and the hour was yours.

Then over the past few years every street whore found she could go to the library and post on CL. So now we have this confusion in services - and price has little to do with what you get.

At the extremes some guys just want to blow and go. It may be a budget issue or simply they have one hour for lunch and they can go to Burger King or take 30 minutes and get laid.

Other guys are in town on business, all alone with nothing to do all evening and a higher budget. They want to connect with someone beyond just having sex. They can afford an evening dinner date or even an overnight date with a girl who is willing to get totally into her role as a surrogate girlfriend. A true GFE experience. For that they expect to pay more and are entitled to receive more.

And then you have the incall outcall issue. Outcalls I've noticed are usually more 'businesslike" than incalls at home. Outcall dates rarely run overtime and as Cheri said often run under. They still tend to follow the one shot and your done rule.

Incalls I think tend to run over because they are more relaxing. I know when I travel I try to get a 2 room suite to provide an extra level of comfort to the scene. When I invite someone into my home and are we are having a nice time together it's very easy to forget the time.

Like anyone I've had dates where a one hour turned into 3 hours, and I've had dates where I counted the minutes till he took his teeny weeny and stinky body and smokers breath elsewhere and I could take a bath.

I had a celebrity fly me to Vegas on a private jet for a weekend, I would have done anything he wanted (and did) and time was definitely not a factor and I was handsomely rewarded. Jessica and I have gone on trips with couples under similar circumstances where cost or time simply wasn't a factor.

And I've had guys spend 10 minutes. So I think it's all relative, and circumstances change according to the parties involved.

So now I'm tired - let's just go have sex...

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

[justatransgirl]

PS - Does dating an escort make me gay???





/

[blacktgirls]

Different girls have different policies in that regard. My advice is if you cum quick just go see her for an hour and save the $$$ and if you like her offer her more for a second hour or go back and see her again another time.

Another idea, JRK OFF b4 u go see her... some very important questions have not been raised about this topic. i personally can hold out even with a girl as beautiful as jennifer paris for 50 mins and then finish within 5 mins get dressed and leave. if a client (me) is not out the door until 50 or 55 mins do you girls get mad and maybe won't take another appointment with this client (me)? i always ask the girls to tell me when they are going to cum because i don't want them to cum in my mouth. so the next question that has to be asked is, what happens if you girls cum to quickly where does that leave the client (me) - do you leave him hanging or engage in foreplay until you get warmed up again or what? since you girls will not discuss sexual acts over the phone do you just expect when the client (me) shows up (incall) to tell you what acts he is interested in before handing you the money for the hour? :?: :?: :?:

[BeardedOne]

An interesting point has come up that lends a tweak to it all: Incall vs. Outcall.

I've yet to be to a gurl's digs for a genuine 'Incall'. Not sure I'd want to, unless we already had some numbers on the odometer and clicked as friends at some level. It does add a level of intimacy that is uncomfortable to me, not because of our commercial relationship, but because I have been so used and abused in my LTRs. Not sure I'm ready (Or ever will be again) for the 'next level'.

With one exception (My day-date with the first gurl I'd been with), all of my experiences have been, technically, outcall though they were to the gurl's hotel room/suite (Hence, by definition, incall). That typically puts them in a comfort zone of 'home turf', as it were, while giving me some level of comfort in that the territory is essentially neutral.

Oddly enough, I became the clock-watcher in every scenario. One even noticed that I was staring at the clock and I told her that it was due in part (And this was true) to my ADD and the blinking digits fascinated me. "It's beeyootiful!" I said in my best Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, voice. She was fully understanding and turned me to face away from the clock and the evening proceeded wonderfully (You can read the review, the only one I've written to date - at her request - here on HA).

So, therein lies the question: How does incall (To your home or hotel room/suite) vs. outcall (To their home - like that is actually going to happen in 99% of the scenarios - or hotel room/suite) affect your time variances?

To those that may wonder: I don't invite gurls to my home because I live in a rodent infested shithole (The joys of buying an historic property) and wouldn't drag the gurls down to that level. But I do choose nice places to entertain when I travel.

[slinky]

With Incall vs Outcall, it really depends on what the girl wants to do 9and this can even vary from day to day with the same girl: you get a girl who always does outcall, but one day she rents a hotel room to do incall and for that day she doesn't want outcall appointments).

It is certainly easier to do high volume incall than outcall, but it's also easier to end the appointment doing outcall (i.e. it's easy to put on your clothes and walk, and not so easy to get a reticent trick to do the same thing). My general experience is that if you hit is off with a girl, and she's in a hotel room staying from out of town, it's easier to have her allow you to stay over time (just company, talking, etc.) if she hasn't booked back to back.

[slinky]

If you go to Thailand (as I understand it) you can get girls to spend the night or longer for very small amounts, because of a huge level of competition and lower local costs of living.

Not just in Thailand, but most 3rd world "sex trip" destinations, this is for "bar girls" take out"*. Where Spanish is spoken, it's often referred to as TLN (Todo la noche, or "the whole night). But it's a similar issue with this: in most cases TLN doesn't end up being such, and exactly how long it actually ends up being is the same push-pull negotiation.

* as opposed to brothels. There is usually a "bar fine" involved which is a fee paid to take the girl out of the bar.

[justatransgirl]

Good point "blacktgirls" - I really haven't had a good 50 minute pounding in awhile, so I'm not sure if I'd ask you back or run away in fright. Probably I'd beg you to come back! :-)

But I do know on the occasions that someone has done me that long, it starts out with me really riding the wave, after about 20 minutes settles into low moans, eventually ends up with me rolled onto my tummy to where I'm virtually unable to move anymore and can't even summon the strength to moan for my poor abused ass. I think that's known as getting the shit fucked out of you... :-)

As for her cumming to early - gosh why haven't I ever thought of that - OK new rules... you get an hour or until "I" cum - then you leave... that ought to cut the hour to 3 minutes... :-) NOT REALLY!

Have fun, play safe,
TS Jamie :-)

[justatransgirl]

Ah BO, I'm sorry your experiences haven't been all you'd hoped. If you find yourself in San Diego, look me up honey I'll cook you dinner and see if I can curl your toes.

As for incall vs outcall. Danny has a point that it's easier for a girl to end a bad date on outcall. I personally like doing outcalls. I get to go out, see different hotels, sometimes to peoples houses. (The only time it really sucked was the time a guys wife came home and caught us...) I've gotten to visit in the Presidential Suites at several local hotels and one of the 10G a night sky boxes at the Palms in Vegas. I'd never get to enjoy that sort of thing on my own. So it's fun for me too. And I've done my share of 6 Motels too... :-)

Only place I've never done it is in a dirty book theater - any takers? :-)

I'm no longer doing incalls at our home unless it's someone I already know. We were lucky in the past not to have any issues. I rented a party pad for awhile but it was too expensive, at over a grand a month. But to me it's a lot of fun to have a friend come over to the house and really get to entertain like a nice (but very naughty) girl should.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[Str8ninterested]

i personally can hold out even with a girl as beautiful as jennifer paris for 50 mins and then finish within 5 mins get dressed and leave.I'm extremely jealous...I know that if I $pent any time with Jennifer, there's no chance I'd last 50 minutes :oops: :oops:

Hey Jen, multiple pops an option? :wink: :lol:

I'm very glad that this thread (which initially got bombed as a joke) turned into something viable.

btw, yes I was most definitely joking about the "refund"...the main question (albeit poorly worded) was about multiple pops. I thank all of you for your responses/suggestions...1 hour it is, but go with a full wallet, in case I decide differently when there

[RMan1]

Maybe you should pay by the minute, that way if you cum in 2 minutes, it will only cost you $2.

[Str8ninterested]

Why pay per minute when you can pay per stroke?



You silly goose :roll:

[slinky]

Maybe you should pay by the minute, that way if you cum in 2 minutes, it will only cost you $2.

And which girls are charging $60 per hour?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

props on the spider monkey avatar Dan

[mimiplastique]

props on the spider monkey avatar Dan


chat time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mimiis back !

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Maybe you should pay by the minute, that way if you cum in 2 minutes, it will only cost you $2.

Is that how much you charge?!? Damn..no wonder you business went down the drain so fast! lol

~HTG

[melissacarter]

I always offer quick cummers a game of chess to round out the session.

[Minutemouse9]

Maybe you should pay by the minute, that way if you cum in 2 minutes, it will only cost you $2.

And which girls are charging $60 per hour?

Not even the phone sex girls charge that little

[Alyssa87]

Maybe you should pay by the minute, that way if you cum in 2 minutes, it will only cost you $2.

And which girls are charging $60 per hour?

Not even the phone sex girls charge that little

...NOPE! LOL

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/mod1/arrow-down.GIF

[Dinand]

I don't get it, you pay the girl for 2 hours so she should give you the full 2 hours, I mean you didn't pay per pop so why should you leave if you paid for 2 hours but popped after like 15 minutes?

Of course this sounds like something you should discuss before so you don't get screwed, at least not the way you want!

[BeardedOne]

I'm glad this puppy floated back to the surface of the swamp. :D

From earlier posts:


Ah BO, I'm sorry your experiences haven't been all you'd hoped. If you find yourself in San Diego, look me up honey I'll cook you dinner and see if I can curl your toes.

Oh, my escort experiences have all been five stars, it's my 'relationships' that sucked big donkey dix and didn't swallow.

But if you still want to make nice for me, pasta or burgers are good and we can go out and ride the trams after my toes uncurl. ;)

On incall/outcall:

I've discovered that a rather nice hotel in the city seems to be 'Tranny Central' on occasion (I've had dates with two gurls there, on separate occasions, had one gurl point out a gurl on the street and say "There's XXX, she's staying here, too!", and got a PM from an out of state gurl once asking "Did I see you and XXX at the XXX hotel last week?"), so if it's an issue, I can tweak our date to a neutral ground. It helps to know the staff. :D

While I understand the simplicity of an incall to the gurl's living space, I can't begin to imagine the stress levels that can cause. It was, after all, the downfall of Sydney Biddle Barrows (The Mayflower Madame), when her neighbors complained of the *Click* *Clack* of heels in the hallway at all hours. Again, thanx so much for inviting me to your home, but do you really want =ME= in your home? :?:


props on the spider monkey avatar Dan

So, =THAT'S= the Spider Monkey!?! Love it!

As to the time, it all comes back to YMMV. One gurl was a bit antsy at the fifty-minnit mark while another asked if I wanted to take her out to dinner. If you're just out for a fantasy pop, stick with the hour and be thankful for what you get. If you're out for an evening of fun and adventure with a gurl that tweaks your senses, you shouldn't have to ask "How much?".

[ls1290]

I have a meeting setup with an escort here tomorrow. She is very hot and I am looking forward to seeing her. We have kept the phone contact short and brief. I do have one question that hopefully someone can help me out. Should I bring condoms along or she will have some? Here is a pic of her :)

http://www.eros-denver.com//file-images/natasha169-natasha1-4-46135.jpg

[BeardedOne]

I have a meeting setup with an escort here tomorrow. She is very hot and I am looking forward to seeing her. We have kept the phone contact short and brief. I do have one question that hopefully someone can help me out. Should I bring condoms along or she will have some? Here is a pic of her :)

http://www.eros-denver.com//file-images/natasha169-natasha1-4-46135.jpg

Bravo! :D

Though the gurls I've known always had protection at hand, it can't hurt to have back-up. Hell, a coupla bux versus gawd-knows-what, bring the spares. If she doesn't have 'em, and you don't have 'em, the smart gurl would send you packin' to Happy Harry's straight off.

[slinky]

So, =THAT'S= the Spider Monkey!?! Love it!

Nope. That was 2 avatars ago.

[slinky]

Some girls have been known not to have them on purpose.