Has this ever happened to you?

[Beagle]

You're with a very nice, very passable girl and things are really going well. You have a lot in common... She's very attractive and you're attracted to her... Time passes... Things progress... You both get hotter and excited... Juices start to flow... Heart rate increases...

Then, in a moment of passion it happens.

It could be just a glance, a casual brush against razor stubble, maybe her voice cracked down an octave or two, perhaps it's just the feel of her hands... at any rate, at that moment, in your mind you tell yourself, OMG, I'm with a guy. At this point it's too late and from then on, everytime you look at this once hot attractive babe you see a guy.

It's easy to understand the effort and time that tgirls put into their looks and personna. It must be very difficult worrying about all those details required to be female.

[JamesHunt]

You're with a very nice, very passable girl and things are really going well. You have a lot in common... She's very attractive and you're attracted to her... Time passes... Things progress... You both get hotter and excited... Juices start to flow... Heart rate increases...

Then, in a moment of passion it happens.

It could be just a glance, a casual brush against razor stubble, maybe her voice cracked down an octave or two, perhaps it's just the feel of her hands... at any rate, at that moment, in your mind you tell yourself, OMG, I'm with a guy. At this point it's too late and from then on, everytime you look at this once hot attractive babe you see a guy.

It's easy to understand the effort and time that tgirls put into their looks and personna. It must be very difficult worrying about all those details required to be female.

LMFAO!!! No explanation required :wink:

[EyeCumInPiece]

You're with a very nice, very passable girl and things are really going well. You have a lot in common... She's very attractive and you're attracted to her... Time passes... Things progress... You both get hotter and excited... Juices start to flow... Heart rate increases...

Then, in a moment of passion it happens.

It could be just a glance, a casual brush against razor stubble, maybe her voice cracked down an octave or two, perhaps it's just the feel of her hands... at any rate, at that moment, in your mind you tell yourself, OMG, I'm with a guy. At this point it's too late and from then on, everytime you look at this once hot attractive babe you see a guy.

It's easy to understand the effort and time that tgirls put into their looks and personna. It must be very difficult worrying about all those details required to be female.

I can see you gettin ripped apart for this topic . I, to an extent, can relate and understand what you mean. If a girl is truly "passable," i cant imagine myself feeling the way you described above. But if shes passable....from a block away, yea, id probably feel the same way you described above. If shes hot enough that every guy she walks past on the street is checkin her out, im gonna treat her and feel as if shes a real woman.....

[Beagle]

It wasn't my intent to be mean spirited, nor would I ever be rude to someone in person. And I wasn't posting this to be a trouble maker.

Here's the thing... I don't consider myself gay or bisexual. At the very least, I guess I'd consider myself bi below the waist, but only if it's with the girl's OK.

If anything, thinking about this, just makes me more understanding of the many issues that confront tgirls.

[tgirlzoe]

I had the reverse happen to me.

I found myself dating another tgirl. Both of us had been on hormones less than a year (she about six months more than I). Because I'm not sexually attracted to women, when we had sex, I had to picture her as a guy to be able to get off. We stayed together for over two years, both involved with relationships on the side. Towards the end, she just looked too much like a girl for me to pretend and she wanted me to play the dominant sexual role even to the point of topping her anally, which I wasn't really into. I highly doubt I will ever date another tgirl again, although I'm still open for fun ;)

I was interested in the guy in her, shadows of her former life and masculine personality aspects. It was sort of reminiscent of when I was dating a pre-T FTM, trying to ignore the female and embrace the male. I could definitely see how it could turn you off.

I remember earlier in my transtion, going to bed with a man and waking up with him brushing my cheek and the stubbly roughness was like fingernails on a chalkboard, horrifying but didn't seem to phase him (he was probably far more interested in where to stick his morning wood ^_^). Feeling gross, unsexy and unfeminine turns me off too. But hopefully those things aren't permanent.

[goliath_91710]

I don't thing this is such a big deal. This has happened to me with genetic girls. Like I'd be kissing my girlfriend (genetic girlfriend) and she had the tiniest hairs on her upper-lip, but when I felt them, I'd just get grossed out. And sometimes I don't like to meet a genetic girl's parents, 'cause some of them look a lot like their father, and once I can see the "man" in them, I just can't get turned on anymore. We're all made from male/female combos, it's really not such a big deal, at least in my opinion. And we're all attracted to and averse to different things in any gender. But, yeah, I know what you're saying, I just realize that my issues are mine, not my partner's.

[bezane]

Can I ask if everything was going well and you went further reached in her pants and got a handful of cock would you gasp and think it was a............GUY!!!!!!???????

It goes with the territory. Why are we here? Might have something to do with liking transsexuals. They all originated as genetic men. And this "passable" business is a joke. You get away with throwing that term around because the girls here really want to be passable. But most aren't. The famous ones aren't. There's a few. But there's always something and so what?

There's something sexy about a transsexual. And while I don't believe you're trying to be insulting here it is. There are so few "passable" girls, often because of them surging themselves to the point of obviousness and other times it just isn't in the cards. Maybe if we all were accepting of what WE are, guys seeking transsexuals, and less unaccepting of what THEY are, we can proceed with a common dialogue.

Many girls are very tall. Many girls have voice issues. many girls have trouble achieving natural hair. Etc. Etc....

But guess what? Many men are very short. Many men come off like fags or are out of shape. Many men are balding. Etc. Etc.

These girls are sexy. The passable issue only comes into play because of a guy's cowardness. No offense. If a guy was cool being seen with them it would be easier.

Not jumping on you here. But I believe so many of the problems I've had and many other's have had when it comes to transsexual women have to do with the struggle they've had to endure to fit in a world that is cruel and unaccepting.

Did I just say transsexuals are moody? Difficult?

[peggygee]

They all originated as genetic men. And this "passable" business is a joke. You get away with throwing that term around because the girls here really want to be passable. But most aren't. The famous ones aren't. There's a few. But there's always something and so what?

There's something sexy about a transsexual. And while I don't believe you're trying to be insulting here it is. There are so few "passable" girls, often because of them surging themselves to the point of obviousness and other times it just isn't in the cards.

Maybe if we all were accepting of what WE are, guys seeking transsexuals, and less unaccepting of what THEY are, we can proceed with a common dialogue.

Many girls are very tall. Many girls have voice issues. many girls have trouble achieving natural hair. Etc. Etc....

But guess what? Many men are very short. Many men come off like fags or are out of shape. Many men are balding. Etc. Etc.

These girls are sexy. The passable issue only comes into play because of a guy's cowardness. No offense. If a guy was cool being seen with them it would be easier.

Not jumping on you here. But I believe so many of the problems I've had and many other's have had when it comes to transsexual women have to do with the struggle they've had to endure to fit in a world that is cruel and unaccepting.


Gee Bezane I'm not quite sure which way you're going with this.

Part of your response states that passing is a joke, a non-reality for
many of the women here.

You state that many of the women have taken surgery to extremes, and
this hurts their passability.

There's a few, but that there is always something that will get them
clocked, you say voice, too tall, bald as an eagle.

Then you say.....




And while I don't believe you're trying to be insulting here it is. There are so few "passable" girls, often because of them surging themselves to the point of obviousness and other times it just isn't in the cards.



Now Bezane you've said you've been in 'the life'for decades, have known
some of the superstar T-girls.

My question to you is:

What is passing?

This is my definition from the Stealth thread. (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16681&start=0)

In the context of male-to-female transsexual women,
"passing" means that when you meet someone, they
accept you without any reservations as a women.

Admittedly in parts of your post you have made some redeeming points,
but to me they come across as a back-handed compliment.

So if you would be so kind as to clarify what you meant, I truly would
appreciate it.

I've always taken you for one of the good guys, so I'm sure it's me who
is missing the point some how.

[SarahG]

Can I ask if everything was going well and you went further reached in her pants and got a handful of cock would you gasp and think it was a............GUY!!!!!!???????

It goes with the territory. Why are we here? Might have something to do with liking transsexuals. They all originated as genetic men. And this "passable" business is a joke. You get away with throwing that term around because the girls here really want to be passable. But most aren't. The famous ones aren't. There's a few. But there's always something and so what?

There's something sexy about a transsexual. And while I don't believe you're trying to be insulting here it is. There are so few "passable" girls, often because of them surging themselves to the point of obviousness and other times it just isn't in the cards. Maybe if we all were accepting of what WE are, guys seeking transsexuals, and less unaccepting of what THEY are, we can proceed with a common dialogue.

Many girls are very tall. Many girls have voice issues. many girls have trouble achieving natural hair. Etc. Etc....

But guess what? Many men are very short. Many men come off like fags or are out of shape. Many men are balding. Etc. Etc.

These girls are sexy. The passable issue only comes into play because of a guy's cowardness. No offense. If a guy was cool being seen with them it would be easier.

Not jumping on you here. But I believe so many of the problems I've had and many other's have had when it comes to transsexual women have to do with the struggle they've had to endure to fit in a world that is cruel and unaccepting.

Did I just say transsexuals are moody? Difficult?

If you think passing is a joke that very rarely happens... what do you think about "tricking"?

Do you think every "tricking" incident involved guys who knew that they were with a tgirl, or do you think it can actually happen?

The two go hand in hand. Tricking can't occur in a world without passing.

[tgirlzoe]

Day-to-day passing isn't very hard. It happens every time you are "ma'am"'ed. It happens every time you walk into the ladies' room and strike up a conversation at the sink and nobody freaks out. It happens nearly every time a guy hits on you (unless you're at a trans club or the random chance that the guy realized you were ts and he's into that). It happens for every girl who's lived in university dorms (including me). It is an accepted fact of life for most TS (those who seriously don't pass, even with surgical help, either get weeded out through detransition or suicide or become activists...).

Now, if you're saying that no girl is flawless, that's different. Even when just comparing a TS to an average GG, there's usually something that's a "tell" but you usually have to be looking for it. This isn't a problem unless you're standing in a row on the Maury show... (and the audience still doesn't do better than 50-50 on those things).

Passing is a whole self thing -- your looks, your movements, your voice, your personality, the way you relate to people. If you can really truly look in the mirror and see a girl, if you believe it yourself, so will other people (pending seriously flaws, of course).

[muhmuh]

What is passing?

This is my definition from the Stealth thread. (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16681&start=0)

In the context of male-to-female transsexual women,
"passing" means that when you meet someone, they
accept you without any reservations as a women.

the "accept" in there is either wishywashy or not in canon with the (i believe more common) definition of passing which goes something like "others _cannot_ tell youre not genetic"

to me accepting is more along the lines of just letting her be if she wants to be a woman regardless of whether its blindingly obvious that she wasnt born one or not

[peggygee]

the "accept" in there is either wishywashy or not in canon with the (i believe more common) definition of passing which goes something like "others _cannot_ tell youre not genetic"

to me accepting is more along the lines of just letting her be if she wants to be a woman regardless of whether its blindingly obvious that she wasnt born one or not

I would agree more with your distinction, than my previously
stated one.

Thank you for pointing that out. :wink:

[trish]

for one thing, i know genetic women that barely pass. there's a lot of natural variation in the human species.

where i live (not the big city by any means) the likelihood of bumping into a transgendered woman in the street is so remote as to be out of the realm of possibility. no body would believe there's a transgendered woman sitting on the bus next to them. here we only exist on jerry springer as rare oddities. it's quite easy to pass in an environment where everyone just assumes a man is a man and a woman a woman; and after all they're right. i'm not puttin' myself down mind you, nobody clocks me anywhere. i'm just saying expectations have a lot to do with passing. even though there's a greater awareness these days of transgendered persons, we're still low enough on the radar that we pass on the basic assumption that there's a lot a variation from one person to the next and people are generally what they appear to be.

i think the reason we place such focus on passing is we've all gone through that uncomfortable period when we didn't or at least worried that we didn't.

[tsmandy]

i think the reason we place such focus on passing is we've all gone through that uncomfortable period when we didn't or at least worried that we didn't.

For me, it is so hard to leave that time behind. I still worry when I'm in public bathrooms because of things that happened 4 years ago. I still look in the mirror and sometimes hate who I see, because I can see remnants of what I looked like before I transitioned.

As far as passing goes... Just about everywhere I go, men and women both stop to tell me how beautiful I am, as in "are you a model? You are so beautiful...." Granted many women would kill someone to be as tall and thin as I am (got to remember to thank the genetic lottery for that one). Like Trish I live in a small town, tranny just isn't on the radar. And it certainly isn't when I visit my people in middle Tennessee.

Sometimes I out myself (either out of necessity or for fun), like when my hairdresser was talking to the other hairdresser about AVN and doing makeup for porn. I said I was always looking for good stylists, she asked if I was in the sex industry, I said yes, she asked if I knew xyz.... I said no, I'm a tranny. She was shocked...This is how it is for me everywhere I go. I'm the only one I don't pass with. It's me that looks in the mirror and is unhappy, never anyone else. And that is the biggest challenge for anyone who is close to me, is not getting burned by those insecurities, because they are very powerful.

Fortunately for you guys, you don't have to see that side of me. You get to see me smile, and fuck, and laugh.

[GIA LOVES RON]

i think the reason we place such focus on passing is we've all gone through that uncomfortable period when we didn't or at least worried that we didn't.

For me, it is so hard to leave that time behind. I still worry when I'm in public bathrooms because of things that happened 4 years ago. I still look in the mirror and sometimes hate who I see, because I can see remnants of what I looked like before I transitioned.

As far as passing goes... Just about everywhere I go, men and women both stop to tell me how beautiful I am, as in "are you a model? You are so beautiful...." Granted many women would kill someone to be as tall and thin as I am (got to remember to thank the genetic lottery for that one). Like Trish I live in a small town, tranny just isn't on the radar. And it certainly isn't when I visit my people in middle Tennessee.

Sometimes I out myself (either out of necessity or for fun), like when my hairdresser was talking to the other hairdresser about AVN and doing makeup for porn. I said I was always looking for good stylists, she asked if I was in the sex industry, I said yes, she asked if I knew xyz.... I said no, I'm a tranny. She was shocked...This is how it is for me everywhere I go. I'm the only one I don't pass with. It's me that looks in the mirror and is unhappy, never anyone else. And that is the biggest challenge for anyone who is close to me, is not getting burned by those insecurities, because they are very powerful.

Fortunately for you guys, you don't have to see that side of me. You get to see me smile, and fuck, and laugh.

I agree so much with you tsmandy, all of the things you just said actually reflects to how I live too in a suburban area. People in these "family oriented" places don't know SHIT about what a transsexual is...if they see you and you look like a woman then that's that for them....I never had problems of passing or even being clocked here in Massachusetts unless i'm in a city where people are more aware about their surroundings and tgirls walking around in short skirts and breasts all over the place.

Even so, people have lots of things to worry about themselves they could not give a fuck if you we're born a girl or a boy. They are all consumed wth all their own issues. I really believed that people are not walking around trying to clock you just for the heck of it.

But of course as a transsexual woman, we are bound to think that everyone is clocking us when in the reality is they are not. But our minds our going "does she know, does he know" , sometimes I wish that I could turn that switch off when it comes to that part of my mind. I think my life would be a lot pleasant and carefree. I'm sure a lot of the girls here somewhat feels the same as I do! :D

[a994]

I'm the only one I don't pass with. It's me that looks in the mirror and is unhappy, never anyone else. And that is the biggest challenge for anyone who is close to me, is not getting burned by those insecurities, because they are very powerful.


Well, as they say, "wherever you go, there you are." And for each of us, that Person In The Mirror is always our toughest and most ruthless critic.

[tgirlzoe]

When I lived in the dorms, I had only been in transition a little over a year. I was going about my business fine before that too. You'd figure someone would have said something, people aren't that nice. After all, they weren't afraid to treat me like shit before transition for being androgynous or whatever they considered "faggoty" and worthy of violence and harassment. Things got a lot better for me once I transitioned. That's the result of passing.

Another story illustrates my point. It was Summer quarter 2005, so I wasn't very far into transition at all (I started hormones Dec 2004), I hadn't even officially changed my name yet. I was taking a lecture class on Human Sexuality. We had a guest speaker, a woman from town, who was a transsexual. Now, I mean no disrespect towards this woman but she didn't exactly break any stereotypes. She was older, like 50, large, deep voice, former crossdresser, had been in the military, married a woman, had her SRS and now lived an awkward sexless life.

The girl next to me turned to me after the woman's presentation ended and said that she felt sorry for people like that. We continued talking about her and transsexuality in abstract as we left the class and walked into the busy bathroom and didn't miss a beat.

Why? Because, to her, the woman on stage was a transsexual. The girl sitting next to her in class wasn't. There are two very different stereotypes - the frumpy crossdresser and the plastic porn star. What about your geeky roommate? What about the woman on the pew in front of you or across from you on the bus? What about your coworker or the cute bartender? We're everywhere ^_^

[Tepres]

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