The New " REAL ID CARD "

[xxxsexyd]

Just watching the news and heard about this " REAL ID " the government is issuing, does anyone have any info on it? And how will that affect Transsexuals who have FEMALE as gender on their current DL?

UGHHHHHHH

It sucked going through the first process...

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

REAL ID Act
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The REAL ID Act of 2005 requires people entering federal buildings, boarding airplanes or opening bank accounts to present identification that has met certain security and authentification standards. The Act is Division B of an act of the United States Congress titled Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005. It implements the following:

* Establishing national standards for state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver's identification cards;
* Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders;
* Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity;
* Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds but for aliens who have been released pending hearings);
* Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security; and
* Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australian citizens.

the most important thing you need to know

On January 11, 2008, it was announced that the deadline has been extended again, until 2011, in hopes of gaining more support from states.

in other words: nope not yet

[KiraHarden]

Just watching the news and heard about this " REAL ID " the government is issuing, does anyone have any info on it? And how will that affect Transsexuals who have FEMALE as gender on their current DL?

UGHHHHHHH

It sucked going through the first process...
I heard/read somewhere that it would have all TS listed as their birth gender, regardless even if they had SRS :angry

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/realid.jpg


The REAL ID Act of 2005 is Division B of an act of the United States Congress entitled Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005, Pub. L. No. 109-13, 119 Stat. 231 (May 11, 2005)[1]. This controversial legislation is intended to deter terrorism by:

Establishing the national standards for state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver's identification cards;
Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders;

Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity;
Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds, but for aliens that have been released pending hearings);

Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security; and
Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australians.

In the United States, driver's licenses are issued by the states, not by the federal government. States also issue voluntary identification cards for non-drivers. States set the rules for what data is on the card and what documents must be provided in order to obtain one. States also maintain databases of licensed drivers and ID-card holders.

After May 11, 2008, "a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a state to any person unless the state is meeting the requirements" specified in the Real ID Act. States remain free to also issue non-complying licenses and ID's, so long as these have a unique design and a clear statement that they cannot be accepted for any Federal identification purpose. The federal Transportation Security Administration is responsible for security check-in at airports, so bearers of non-compliant documents would no longer be able to travel on common carrier aircraft.

The national license/ID standards cover:

What data must be included on the card;
What documentation must be presented before a card can be issued; and
How the states must share their databases.

Strictly speaking, many of these requirements are not new. They replace similar language in Section 7212 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-458), which had not yet gone into effect before being repealed by the Real ID Act.

Data that must be included on the license or ID card
Each card must include, at a minimum:

The person's full legal name.
The person's date of birth.
The person's sex.
The person's driver's license or identification card number.
A photograph of the person's face.
The person's address of principal residence.
The person's signature.

Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate).

Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card
Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation:

A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.

Documentation of birthdate.

Documentation showing name and principal residence address

[KiraHarden]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/realid.jpg


The REAL ID Act of 2005 is Division B of an act of the United States Congress entitled Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005, Pub. L. No. 109-13, 119 Stat. 231 (May 11, 2005)[1]. This controversial legislation is intended to deter terrorism by:

Establishing the national standards for state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver's identification cards;
Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders;

Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity;
Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds, but for aliens that have been released pending hearings);

Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security; and
Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australians.

In the United States, driver's licenses are issued by the states, not by the federal government. States also issue voluntary identification cards for non-drivers. States set the rules for what data is on the card and what documents must be provided in order to obtain one. States also maintain databases of licensed drivers and ID-card holders.

After May 11, 2008, "a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a state to any person unless the state is meeting the requirements" specified in the Real ID Act. States remain free to also issue non-complying licenses and ID's, so long as these have a unique design and a clear statement that they cannot be accepted for any Federal identification purpose. The federal Transportation Security Administration is responsible for security check-in at airports, so bearers of non-compliant documents would no longer be able to travel on common carrier aircraft.

The national license/ID standards cover:

What data must be included on the card;
What documentation must be presented before a card can be issued; and
How the states must share their databases.

Strictly speaking, many of these requirements are not new. They replace similar language in Section 7212 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-458), which had not yet gone into effect before being repealed by the Real ID Act.

Data that must be included on the license or ID card
Each card must include, at a minimum:

The person's full legal name.
The person's date of birth.
The person's sex.
The person's driver's license or identification card number.
A photograph of the person's face.
The person's address of principal residence.
The person's signature.

Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate).

Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card
Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation:

A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.

Documentation of birthdate.

Documentation showing name and principal residence address
Geez I didnt know he was 5-3 270... Damn Cheese

[peggygee]

Just watching the news and heard about this " REAL ID " the government is issuing, does anyone have any info on it? And how will that affect Transsexuals who have FEMALE as gender on their current DL?

UGHHHHHHH

It sucked going through the first process...
I heard/read somewhere that it would have all TS listed as their birth gender, regardless even if they had SRS :angry

Trans advocacy groups are working on the logistics for non / pre ops
as regards this issue.

As a legal female post SRS, you are all set.

Interested parties may find this thread helpful.

F on your DL (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=11147&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

So you're out driving with friends or on a date. Or you are cashing
a check, and you are asked for identification.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/statepopo-1.jpg

Are your papers in order?

:roll:

[Trogdor]

They make a fucking ID card like this, we might as well all get tattooed with a bar code, and my idea on the war of terror outta be on these cards.

~Plops on a helmet and assumes a Nazi voice~ Your papers, please.

[El Nino]

No "theories" here... Chefmike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qb5RT1My1k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH2WGhwoFFY

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321925,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/11/real.id.ap/index.html

[SarahG]

Its too bad they tabled their plan to use RFid chips in these DLs. At least that would have been a nice tool for convincing people how stupid and wrong RealID is.

[xxxsexyd]

Kira are you serious about the birth gender thing having to be on there? where did you read that? Some states give us that right so that we don't get discriminated against... That's really going to suck.

[Trogdor]

Kira are you serious about the birth gender thing having to be on there? where did you read that? Some states give us that right so that we don't get discriminated against... That's really going to suck.

Or the idea of such a concept of these cards is wrong to begin with?

Wonder when the enforced vacinations will be next.... :P :roll:

[SarahG]

Kira are you serious about the birth gender thing having to be on there? where did you read that? Some states give us that right so that we don't get discriminated against... That's really going to suck.

As I understand it, if you're in a state that allows you to have your DL say F while preop (Texas does this), this ability will end once RealID is adopted (not all states have adopted RealID, there are about a dozen hold outs).

If your preop and have a DL that says F now, you'll basically end up having to go back to having it say M once your state adopts realid- unless you get srs.

RealID uses the same sex-status identification requirements as a passport, the only way you'd be stuck with putting birth sex status down is if you're preop or nonop.

[BrendaQG]

I don't know peggy. From what I hear as part of the "real ID" act if you send for a Social security card these days they print your birth gender on it. For non transpeople that is a non issue For transsexuals that is something to worry about. To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed. The gender on the ID must match the social security record or there will be problems.
(Many supposedly stealth women who thiought they had it togetehr have been outed by the social security administration. Social security has been know to send "gender mismatch" letters to employers....alerting them to fraud).

Then there is a moral objection I personally have to any sort of national ID card. That is just too much Nazi Germany for me. Having jackbooted thugs stop you and ask for your papers....then probably being able to take them from you and such if they don't belive your papers.

[El Nino]

The truth about where all of this is headed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo

[dun kingggg]

fuck THAT, im moving back to paris...

[hippifried]

This idea has been kicking around for decades. It's just reactionary nonsense. The problem with that is that reactionary nonsense seems to be what drives most aspects of governance these days.

I ain't gettin' one. I already have my driver's licence that's good for another 10 years. I already have my passport that was a giant pain in the ass to get & cost me 4 times what they said it would.

I've never had to show ID at all to walk into a federal building. If that's going to be a requirement, then they must not need to see me. I don't give out my social security number to anyone that doesn't need it for tax purposes. It's not on my driver's licence. I've had cops ask for it, but I just stick out my hand & say: "Where's my check?" I'm an American adult, damnit! I go where I please, when I please, associate with whomever I please, & I don't answer to anyone.

I don't see this going anywhere. There's too much opposition from all over the political spectrum. One of the biggest problems Americans had with the apartheid government of South Africa was their use of internal passports to control & track people's movements. That's what this is. there's always some fear mongering asshole shrieking about the dangers of some group of those them. So what? the powers of the federal government shouldn't be used to assuage the fears of the neurotic, no matter who the bogeyman is this week.

[BrendaQG]

@hippiefriend

Tell me about it. I remember when I was a little kid they would talk about how controlling the gov't. was in the Soviet Union.... Since then I have seen us become more and more like them every passing year.

[dun kingggg]

One of the biggest problems Americans had with the apartheid government of South Africa was their use of internal passports to control & track people's movements. That's what this is.

WERD.

also, its your right as an american citizen to not carry i.d. with you.

thats why when a police officer stops me and asks for i.d. i refuse, tell them my name and social, and ask them to run me for warrants and priors so i can just be on my way.

[SarahG]

To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed.

That must be new, they used to change the sex status in their databases if you were postop.

[peggygee]

I don't know peggy. From what I hear as part of the "real ID" act if you send for a Social security card these days they print your birth gender on it. For non transpeople that is a non issue For transsexuals that is something to worry about. To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed. The gender on the ID must match the social security record or there will be problems.
(Many supposedly stealth women who thiought they had it togetehr have been outed by the social security administration. Social security has been know to send "gender mismatch" letters to employers....alerting them to fraud).

Then there is a moral objection I personally have to any sort of national ID card. That is just too much Nazi Germany for me. Having jackbooted thugs stop you and ask for your papers....then probably being able to take them from you and such if they don't belive your papers.




To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed.

That must be new, they used to change the sex status in their databases if you were postop.

To contact the Social Security Administration http://www.socialsecurity.gov/reach.htm

Social Security has a toll-free number that operates from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., Monday through Friday: 1-800-772-1213. If you have a touch-tone phone, recorded information and services are available 24 hours a day, including weekends and holidays. People who are deaf or hard of hearing may call our toll-free TTY number, 1-800-325-0778, between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. on Monday through Friday. Please have your Social Security number handy when you call us.


The url to have your SS card corrected is http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ss5doc/

The documents and procedures are:

Corrected Card for a U.S. -Born Adult

If you legally change your name because of marriage, divorce, court order or any other reason, you need to tell Social Security so that you can get a corrected card. If you are working, also tell your employer. If you do not tell us when your name changes, it may:

Delay your tax refund; and
Prevent your wages from being posted correctly to your Social Security record, which may lower the amount of your future Social Security benefits.
To change your name on your Social Security card:

Complete an Application For A Social Security Card (Form SS-5);
Show us proof of your:
U.S. citizenship (if you have not previously established your citizenship with us);
Legal name change; and
Identity.
Take your completed application and original documents to your local Social Security office.
We may use one document for two purposes. For example, we may use your U.S. passport as proof of both citizenship and identity.

All documents must be either originals or copies certified by the issuing agency. We cannot accept photocopies or notarized copies of documents. We also cannot accept a receipt showing you applied for the document.

Citizenship

If you have not already established your U.S. citizenship with us, we need to see proof of U.S. citizenship. We can accept only certain documents as proof of U.S. citizenship. These include:

U.S. birth certificate; or
U.S. passport.
Name change

If you need to change your name on your Social Security card, you must show us a recently issued document as proof of your legal name change. Documents Social Security may accept to prove a legal name change include:

Marriage document;
Divorce decree; or
Court order for a name change.
If the document you provide as evidence of a legal name change does not give us enough information to identify you in our records or if you legally changed your name more than two years ago, you must provide Social Security with additional documentation of your identity.

Marriage, divorce or annulment: In addition to showing us a legal document proving your marriage, divorce or annulment, you must provide an identity document. That document must show your old name, as well as other identifying information or a recent photograph. (We can accept an expired document as evidence of your old name.)

Other name change: In addition to showing us a legal document citing your new name, such as a court order, you must provide us with two identity documents, including:

One identity document in your old name (which can be expired); and
One identity document in your new legal name, which must be current (unexpired).
Both of these documents must show identifying information or a recent photograph.

Identity

We can accept only certain documents as proof of identity. For example, as proof of identity Social Security must see:

U.S. driver’s license;
State-issued nondriver identification card; or
U.S. passport.
If you do not have one of these specific documents or you cannot get a replacement for one of them within 10 days, we will ask to see other documents, including:

Employee ID card;
School ID card;
Health insurance card (not a Medicare card);
U.S. military ID card; or
Adoption decree.
Your new card will have the same number as your previous card, but will show your new name. We will mail your card as soon as we have all of your information and have verified your documents.

Keep your Social Security card in a safe place. It is an important document. Do not carry it with you.

[peggygee]

I don't know peggy. From what I hear as part of the "real ID" act if you send for a Social security card these days they print your birth gender on it. For non transpeople that is a non issue For transsexuals that is something to worry about. To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed. The gender on the ID must match the social security record or there will be problems.
(Many supposedly stealth women who thiought they had it togetehr have been outed by the social security administration. Social security has been know to send "gender mismatch" letters to employers....alerting them to fraud).

Then there is a moral objection I personally have to any sort of national ID card. That is just too much Nazi Germany for me. Having jackbooted thugs stop you and ask for your papers....then probably being able to take them from you and such if they don't belive your papers.

Eric posted this earlier, it's very relevant to the topic:

a long read, but worthwhile info!

Social Security Gender No-Match Letters and Transgender Employees

The National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE) receives calls regularly from transgender people across the country who have been “outed” to their employers by the Social Security Administration’s (SSA’s) unfair gender “no-match” employment letter policy. We continue to work with individuals to mitigate the impact these letters are having on people’s medical privacy and employment security.


Social Security Gender No-Match Letters and Transgender Employees
Information for Transgender Employees

Transgender workers sometimes have different gender markers in employer records than what the Social Security Administration (SSA) has in their database. When this occurs, those transgender employees can be the focus of no-match letters from SSA. This information sheet explains what no-match letters are and what to do if your employer receives a gender no-match letter about you.


What are No-Match Letters?

The SSA keeps information on everyone who has a social security number, including name, date of birth, and gender, among other data. Employers submit employee information to SSA, at hiring and at other times, which SSA verifies against the information in their database. This is done to ensure that workers are using valid Social Security numbers and that people receive the Social Security benefits to which they are entitled.

When employer-submitted information does not match the SSA database, notification is sent to the employer specifying which particular data does not match. While the notification may be either a paper letter or electronic notification, both types are commonly referred to as “no-match letters.” When employers have a gender marker listed in employee records which differs from the SSA database, a no-match letter indicating the gender mismatch may be sent to the employer, or sometimes directly to the employee.


What to do if you receive a No-Match Letter

There is no one single, right answer for what to do if you are the focus of a gender no-match letter. Your individual circumstances will guide you to choose what is best for you.

If your employer receives a gender no-match letter regarding you, SSA instructs them to first check to make sure they submitted correct data without typographical errors. If that does not fix the mismatch, the employer should notify you about the mismatch and the responsibility to resolve the issue becomes yours. You can address the mismatch in a few ways:

* If you can, change your gender marker with SSA. This requires providing proof of “sex reassignment surgery” to SSA. If you update your gender marker with SSA, there is no need to reveal your transgender status to your employer. Once your SSA gender marker is updated, tell your employer that the discrepancy has been resolved. (See our webpage on updating Social Security records for more information on SSA policy for changing gender markers.)

* If you cannot change your gender marker with SSA, consider your options.

o If you are unable to update your gender marker with SSA, then a coming-out conversation with your employer may be unavoidable (if you are not already out to them). If it becomes apparent you must out yourself, first request assurances that the health information you are about to share will be kept confidential and restricted to the fewest necessary people, and kept within the Human Resources department, if possible.

o When you talk with your employer or HR department, you can ask your employer to resubmit your data without gender. Gender is optional data for SSA number verification. Employers are not obligated to honor your request, but it is worth talking to them about it. Since gender data is optional, you can also suggest to your employer that they stop submitting gender data for all employees. This will not address your immediate situation, but will help you, your employer, and other employees avoid future gender no-match hassles. See our Information for Employers Social Security Administration No-Match Letters. [Publication expected January 2008.]

o One option that may be undesirable for many transgender people but a viable alternative for some—is to change your employee records so they match the SSA database, even if it’s not the gender you live by. Be careful—this option may affect your gender marker with company-provided medical insurance or in other ways that you do not want; it may also disclose your transgender status to a large number of your co-workers. Discuss with your employer what possible additional effects may result and find ways to minimize or eliminate any harm.

In some circumstances, notification is sent to the employer only after a failed attempt to mail the worker directly. By making sure that your employer and SSA have your current address, you can lessen the chances that your employer will receive a no-match letter about you.

Talking with employers regarding your gender no-match letter
Employers are frequently uncertain about how to respond to a gender no-match letter. Your demeanor can set the tone for the conversation. Be polite and matter-of-fact.

Keep in mind that much about your transgender status is a private medical matter. Except for very few jobs, you are under no obligation to provide your employer with information about your surgery status or hormone use (or lack thereof). If your employer asks you to change your gender marker with SSA and you have not had surgery, simply say that SSA has specific medical requirements that you are unable to meet. If you are pressed for your personal medical history, you can respond by saying that your medical care is private information, between you and your doctor.


How the Department of Homeland Security Affects No-Match Letters

In August 2007, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) issued new enforcement rules that would have required employers to resolve SSA no-matches within 90 days. If the employer could not resolve the no-match within that time, the rules specified that the employer would have to fire the employee or face substantial fines. Those rules have now been withdrawn and a new version is expected in early 2008. DHS hopes to substantially increase the number of employers participating in Social Security verification programs within the next few years.

SSA policies on their own are vague about any repercussions of data no-matches. Future DHS enforcement rules may significantly affect the necessity of resolving mismatches within a given time period.


Name Changes and No-Match Letters

No-match letters can also be issued if the name your employer has on file for you does not match SSA records. If you receive a name no-match, you must resolve the discrepancy.

* If you have legally changed your name, update your SSA or employer records (whichever record does not have your current information).
* If you go by a different name at work than your legal name, you can:

o Obtain a court-ordered legal name change. How to do this, and the length of time to do it, varies state by state. In some states it can be done as quickly as a day or two, in other states it can take up to six months. Once you have your court-ordered name change, make sure that both SSA and your employer have your new name.(See our webpage on updating Social Security records.) Note: Common-law name changes (legally changing your name through demonstrated long-term use) used to be a viable way to legally change one’s name. But since common-law name changes can take years to establish and are not accepted by a growing number of government agencies, common-law name changes are often not the most practical method for legally changing names.

o Continue using your preferred name for everyday workplace conversations, but make sure your employer uses your legal name for wage-reporting and other government communications. This option may affect your name with company-provided medical insurance or in other ways that you do not want. It may also disclose your transgender status to a large number of your co-workers. Discuss with your employer what possible additional effects may result and find ways to minimize or eliminate any harm.


Immigration Issues and No-Match Letters

If you receive a no-match letter connected to your work authorization status, NCTE recommends you contact Immigration Equality, National Center for Lesbian Rights or National Immigration Law Center for assistance.


Help NCTE Track No-Match Letters

If you receive a gender no-match letter, please contact NCTE and let us know what happened in your circumstances. If you can, send us a copy of the no-match letter. We are tracking no-match letter occurrences and outcomes so we can better affect public policy. Note: if you send us a no-match letter, we will ensure that personal information is removed.


link:

http://nctequality.org/issues/nomatch.html
_________________
e

http://www.beingT.com

[BrendaQG]

I dont see where that says anything about them erasing your old gender from their database. I also know for a fact people who have been outed by social security.

What i heard from a TG social worker here was that social sec.keeps a record of the gender change and never erases that fact.

With the real ID act this will only get harder....if not impossible.

Choose not to believe me if you will.

[peggygee]

I dont see where that says anything about them erasing your old gender from their database. I also know for a fact people who have been outed by social security.

What i heard from a TG social worker here was that social sec.keeps a record of the gender change and never erases that fact.

With the real ID act this will only get harder....if not impossible.

Choose not to believe me if you will.

Depending on when you entered the SS system you may or may not
have a female designation.

And while it may remain in the SS database that the record has been
amended, the key thing is that the employer will not be aware of your
birth gender, and potentially use this to discriminate against you.

Her's How To Perform A Gender Change:

To change your name in the Social Security Administration (SSA) records, provide the following at your local SSA office. All documents need to be originals or certified copies by the issuing agency. You can find the nearest SSA office at the Social Security website.

A completed Form SS-5 “Application For A Social Security Card.”
Proof of identity. One or more identity documents in your new legal name, such as, a driver license, passport, state-issued ID, etc. These documents must show your current legal name.

A letter from the surgeon or attending physician verifying sex change surgery has been completed. This letter must clearly identify you as the person changing their gender marker.

If you are a U.S. citizen and have not previously established citizenship with SSA, you will need to present a birth certificate, U.S. passport, or other proof of citizenship. Note: your birth certificate or other document establishing citizenship does not need to show your current name or gender. However, you will need to show proof that you are the same person, such as with a court order for legal name change.
If you are a non-citizen, you will need to show documents proving your immigration status and work eligibility, such as, Form I-551, I-94 with unexpired foreign passport, and/or work permit card (I-766 or I-688B). Because there are many types and combinations of qualifying documents for non-citizens, you should call SSA to confirm that your documents qualify.

[El Nino]

Congressmen Dr. Ron Paul is against the REAL ID Act, as it is a violation of our civil liberties and is very UNCONSTITUTIONAL. www.ronpaullibrary.org

[SarahG]

Congressmen Dr. Ron Paul is against the REAL ID Act, as it is a violation of our civil liberties and is very UNCONSTITUTIONAL. www.ronpaullibrary.org

But he's for alot of other stupid things like... the fair tax.

There's also the issue of him saying that only 5% of blacks have a sensible political opinin and that something like 95% of the blacks in DC are either partially criminal, or entirely criminal. :roll:

Sounds like a conservative version of nader and just as crazy.

[El Nino]

Nope... ehhhh wrongggg. He did not say anything of the sort. If you are you referring to the MSM spin and recent propaganda, trying to pin him down as a racist... please watch this and re-educate yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzsiESqVss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjZi7NEI5M

And just for shits and giggles, watch Fixed News try to embarrass Dr. Paul. They're scared http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ_Z_XG0L2c

[Trogdor]

1984 is back, it seems.

[Dino Velvet]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/realid.jpg
Geez I didnt know he was 5-3 270... Damn Cheese

If that guy has a decent 40 time, somebody in the NFL should sign him up. With such a low center of gravity, he'd be like a human bowling ball and make a great fullback that would instill fear in any defense. At 63, he would already be in the twilight of his career in his rookie season and might have to settle for the league minimum salary no matter what kind of wheeling and dealing his agent could pull off. If he stays of the crack and doesn't have too many "Babies Mommas" stashed away he might be able to get some endorsements.

On the ID his eyes are described as "glassy". Possibly intoxicated when the picture was taken perhaps?

[SarahG]

Nope... ehhhh wrongggg. He did not say anything of the sort. If you are you referring to the MSM spin and recent propaganda, trying to pin him down as a racist... please watch this and re-educate yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzsiESqVss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjZi7NEI5M

And just for shits and giggles, watch Fixed News try to embarrass Dr. Paul. They're scared http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ_Z_XG0L2c

Who said anything about MSN?

This wasn't spin, it was a direct quote, it was from the mid 90s, and it was first in the media in the Houston Chronicle.

If it was such a bad taken out of context quote, why has Paul ignored it until NOW, a decade after the press picked up on it?

[El Nino]

I meant to type MSM (Main-Stream-Media) Typo... oops.

Step into the revolution and jam it down the tyrants throats. Ron Paul and his Constitutional message is real, wake up.

[El Nino]

Trogdor, the answer to 1984, is 1776! Support the Constitution, Support Ron Paul. If he wins, we all win

[Dino Velvet]

I like the sound of President Mackey. I vote for whoever scares the terrorists the most.
The Strike Team would catch Bin Laden.

http://www.dga.org/news/v27_2/images/featuresjuly02/shield4_full.jpg
VIC MACKEY FOR PRESIDENT

[El Nino]

Wow, your brainwashed... no offense. You've bought into the terrorism BS too, huh? Thats how they get ya.

Nazi 101

[irishgirl]

A few things on ID"s:


In DC and NY you can change your gender marker with no surgery. NY requires a letter from a DR or Psychologist stating your "primary gender". DC has a handy dandy form that can be signed by basicly anyone with a professional license (social worker, counselor, dr. etc.)

Me and some other folks pressured the DC DMV on giving us the most liberal "gender change" rules in the country, and we won. But the Director of the DMV warned us that all bets were off if/when the REAL ID stuff is implemented. So, yeh, it's scary.

Here's a link for the DC Form: http://dmv.washingtondc.gov/info/forms/gcp-app_pdf.shtm

The DC thing is great cause a lot of the girls who work the streets just get the outreach people to sign it, and it's valid.

[Shining Star]

Gender matters for Social Security and many other things, including many types of insurance for statistical reasons. From life insurance, to health, to automobile and perhaps everything but home owners, there are statistical differences between men and women. That difference is reflected in rates.

When it comes to Social Security, certian calculations are made with adjustments for gender because women tend to live, on average longer then men. A widow, or even in some cases divourced woman can file claim a portion of their deceased/ex husband's benefits. For all these reasons and more, the SSA needs to know a person's gender. As far as the SSA and most insurance companies are concerened post operative trannies are still considered "male" since their genetic and physical make up (for the most part) are still male, which will influence certian factors in that person's life, including health ane life expectancy.

As far as the Real ID act, this is probably going to harm many younger trannies who either were stealth, and or have only a drivers license . Those who have been living as a "woman" for many years, and aquired a history as such (college transcripts, drivers license, passport, etc), probably will continue to go on as they are. For most they will have no choice as it is impossible to undo what has been done without a major upheaval of their lives.

Personally wouldn't advise telling one's employer anything unless one's back is against the wall. Trannies have been fired for "lying" on job applications saying they were "F" instead of "M". Not to mention the employer's health insurance company may balk at covering a "man" (sorry) living as a woman. This could mean the end of getting meds such as hormones, as health plan may question why a "male" is getting female hormones.

For awhile after 9/11/01 there were stories of trannies being stopped and given extra careful searches/scrutiny at airports. But given the amount of girls "touring" internationally, don't know if things have settled down, or the girls simply travel as boys.

The big thing to watch out for, and this applies to girls who are "working" is the effects of past or future arrests and or convictions. Most all LE departments, and state correction departments use all or part of a person's SSN as an identifer. Criminal court records often use SSN numbers as well. So if one has been living life as one,but has a past as another, it can come out. The FBI is building a huge biometric database which will cross link criminal convictions, with fingerprints and biometric markers (face pictures, iris scans) and DNA (possibly). The reason given is to better protect against terrorists and criminals. If and when this all comes together it is possible that being asked for a fingerprint scan to board a plane may trigger a response if one has outstanding warrants. Another part of the aforementioned FBI plan will not only let employer's perform criminal background checks, but for a fee the FBI will alert a business/company if an employee previously checked has been arrested. Think the idea is to cover persons employed in security sensitive areas,and or who care for the elderly, children or other areas where criminal background checks are already mandated by state, and federal law.

Whatever way one looks at it, a majority of the Amercian population as told Congress it is fine with loosing some civil rights and or privicay, if it means stopping another terrorist attack. From their point of view, they have nothing to hide, and anyone else in that boat shouldn't mind. Those who are not will have to make their way the best they know how.

[Trogdor]

I like the sound of President Mackey. I vote for whoever scares the terrorists the most.
The Strike Team would catch Bin Laden.

http://www.dga.org/news/v27_2/images/featuresjuly02/shield4_full.jpg
VIC MACKEY FOR PRESIDENT

Pfft, I can more likely see that nut going after the unpaid parking tickets, jaywalkers and the nighbor who's dog takes a shit in his front yard instead

I'm more weary of our government than some findamentalist arabs.

[Cuchulain]

vote for whoever scares the terrorists the most.
Personally, I'd prefer whoever scares DICK CHENEY the most.

As for Ron Paul, he's for a flat (regressive) tax, would privatize (hand a fat percentage to the investment bankers) Social Security and abolish the Dept. of Education (allow red state pinheads to teach creationism in schools). Being the best of the worst doesn't make him GOOD.

REAL ID is a scam, and just as unconstitutional as Dubya's warrantless wiretapping. Call your elected representatives and JUST SAY NO.

[Trogdor]

vote for whoever scares the terrorists the most.
Personally, I'd prefer whoever scares DICK CHENEY the most.

As for Ron Paul, he's for a flat (regressive) tax, would privatize (hand a fat percentage to the investment bankers) Social Security and abolish the Dept. of Education (allow red state pinheads to teach creationism in schools). Being the best of the worst doesn't make him GOOD.

REAL ID is a scam, and just as unconstitutional as Dubya's warrantless wiretapping. Call your elected representatives and JUST SAY NO.

I'd say get someone who scares the entire government most. :idea:

[peggygee]

When it comes to Social Security, certian calculations are made with adjustments for gender because women tend to live, on average longer then men.

A widow, or even in some cases divourced woman can file claim a portion of their deceased/ex husband's benefits. For all these reasons and more, the SSA needs to know a person's gender.

As far as the SSA and most insurance companies are concerened post operative trannies are still considered "male" since their genetic and physical make up (for the most part) are still male, which will influence certian factors in that person's life, including health ane life expectancy.



SS, always good to hear from you, and I appreciate you weighing in on
this topic.

On your point above I must beg to differ with you somewhat.

Legally a post operative transwoman is adjudicated female, with all the
rights inherent to that gender (marriage, alimony, on her birth certificate
D/L, passport, etc.)

It goes withot saying that the GRS will not change her chromosomal
makeup from XY to XX. She will not have a uterus, fallopian tubes, or
other of the internal reproductive organs of the natal female.

And I can see your point about SSA and life insurance companies being
concerned about the actuarial issues relating to statistical calculation
especially of life expectancy.

However as I have pointed out upthread SSA is cognizant of the
ramifications of GRS, and has policies in place for that.

My comments are in red, beneath that is the procedure to change your
gender with SSA:

Depending on when you entered the SS system you may or may not
have a female designation.

And while it may remain in the SS database that the record has been
amended, the key thing is that the employer will not be aware of your
birth gender, and potentially use this to discriminate against you.

Here's How To Perform A Gender Change:

To change your name in the Social Security Administration (SSA) records,
provide the following at your local SSA office. All documents need to be
originals or certified copies by the issuing agency. You can find the
nearest SSA office at the Social Security website.

A completed Form SS-5 “Application For A Social Security Card.”
Proof of identity. One or more identity documents in your new legal
name, such as, a driver license, passport, state-issued ID, etc. These
documents must show your current legal name.

A letter from the surgeon or attending physician verifying sex change
surgery has been completed. This letter must clearly identify you as the
person changing their gender marker.

If you are a U.S. citizen and have not previously established citizenship
with SSA, you will need to present a birth certificate, U.S. passport, or
other proof of citizenship. Note: your birth certificate or other document
establishing citizenship does not need to show your current name or
gender. However, you will need to show proof that you are the same
person, such as with a court order for legal name change.

If you are a non-citizen, you will need to show documents proving your
immigration status and work eligibility, such as, Form I-551, I-94 with
unexpired foreign passport, and/or work permit card (I-766 or I-688B).

Because there are many types and combinations of qualifying documents
for non-citizens, you should call SSA to confirm that your documents
qualify.

[SarahG]

Gender matters for Social Security and many other things, including many types of insurance for statistical reasons. From life insurance, to health, to automobile and perhaps everything but home owners, there are statistical differences between men and women. That difference is reflected in rates.

That difference is sometimes reflected in rates. In some states it is flat out illegal for insurance companies to discriminate based on sex status when dealing with stuff like car insurance where traditionally guys (especially young guys) are charged more than girls.

Race is a major factor in life expectancy but you don't see that stamped on SS cards, you don't see it being used to determine rates for customers either. Our society has merely decided its ok to discriminate and segregate based on sex status even when doing the same for any & every other demographic definer is seen as unethical or even illegal.



which will influence certian factors in that person's life, including health ane life expectancy.

Life expectancy is the same as nontrans guys? You know this? In the grand scheme of things postops are an extremely small segment of the population; small enough that their existance won't cause fatal flaws in SSI's budgeting equations.

On top of this there is no way they can know any hint at what life expectancy is for postops, let alone how it compares to GB or GG demographics. SRS has NOT been around that long, and has only been widely practiced since what, the 1950s? I said widely because there have been cases before going back (atleast) to the 30s but these were unusual, rare cases- in the statistical world: Flukes!

The bulk of the early srs patients to go postop were the ones going through the now defunct gender clinics (they were baby boomers); a generation that hasn't died off yet, making it hard to see how srs impacts life expectancy, especially when trans people (pre OR postop) are generally not major areas of study within the medical community. Studies and stats involving trans people are not easy to come by.

This brings up another question.... how many postops HAVE died from old age? If I were to guess it isn't a large number. Certainly not large enough to make judgments on what life expectancy is. It would be further hard to determine how life expectancy is impacted by being postop, given all the stuff that may artificially deflate these numbers- SEC, discrimination, health care access restrictions. I bet alot of GGs would have lower life expectancies if they had the same problems getting health care, jobs, etc.

[brickcitybrother]

There are going to be problems with this is New Jersey. Changing gender is a HUGE ISSUE and I have not seen a successful Social Security Change within the State. Unlike 'Name Change Orders', any order regarding Gender is not given the Full Faith and Credit of other state adjudications by the federal goverment (especially in NJ).

The good news is that there are groups working on the issue. The bad news is that the new law in NJ banning discrimination based on 'transgenderism' will probably make it HARDER for MTF and FTM TGs to have changes made on their legal documents.

I'll stop here as it could take pages to have a full discussion.

[peggygee]

Gender matters for Social Security and many other things, including many types of insurance for statistical reasons. From life insurance, to health, to automobile and perhaps everything but home owners, there are statistical differences between men and women. That difference is reflected in rates.

That difference is sometimes reflected in rates. In some states it is flat out illegal for insurance companies to discriminate based on sex status when dealing with stuff like car insurance where traditionally guys (especially young guys) are charged more than girls.

Race is a major factor in life expectancy but you don't see that stamped on SS cards, you don't see it being used to determine rates for customers either. Our society has merely decided its ok to discriminate and segregate based on sex status even when doing the same for any & every other demographic definer is seen as unethical or even illegal.



which will influence certian factors in that person's life, including health ane life expectancy.

Life expectancy is the same as nontrans guys? You know this? In the grand scheme of things postops are an extremely small segment of the population; small enough that their existance won't cause fatal flaws in SSI's budgeting equations.

On top of this there is no way they can know any hint at what life expectancy is for postops, let alone how it compares to GB or GG demographics. SRS has NOT been around that long, and has only been widely practiced since what, the 1950s? I said widely because there have been cases before going back (atleast) to the 30s but these were unusual, rare cases- in the statistical world: Flukes!

The bulk of the early srs patients to go postop were the ones going through the now defunct gender clinics (they were baby boomers); a generation that hasn't died off yet, making it hard to see how srs impacts life expectancy, especially when trans people (pre OR postop) are generally not major areas of study within the medical community. Studies and stats involving trans people are not easy to come by.

This brings up another question.... how many postops HAVE died from old age? If I were to guess it isn't a large number. Certainly not large enough to make judgments on what life expectancy is. It would be further hard to determine how life expectancy is impacted by being postop, given all the stuff that may artificially deflate these numbers- SEC, discrimination, health care access restrictions. I bet alot of GGs would have lower life expectancies if they had the same problems getting health care, jobs, etc.

A very thought provoking response to SS's post, you've made a lot
of really great points that I hadn't thought of.

Though I wonder if from a benefit viewpoint if all this is moot, as SS
is anticipated to be bankrupt and phased out or privatized by the time
many people are eligible to collect it.

But in terms of identification Social Security and DOB have been the
cheif means of identifying people.

Now with so much identity theft, many companies and agences are
getting away from that practice, so we may have to go to bio-metrics
as SS has stated.

[peggygee]

There are going to be problems with this is New Jersey. Changing gender is a HUGE ISSUE and I have not seen a successful Social Security Change within the State. Unlike 'Name Change Orders', any order regarding Gender is not given the Full Faith and Credit of other state adjudications by the federal goverment (especially in NJ).

The good news is that there are groups working on the issue. The bad news is that the new law in NJ banning discrimination based on 'transgenderism' will probably make it HARDER for MTF and FTM TGs to have changes made on their legal documents.

I'll stop here as it could take pages to have a full discussion.

To change gender on a birth certificate in 'Joisey':

New Jersey

New Jersey will change both name and sex, and will issue a new birth certificate rather than amend the old one.

Updated New Jersey information as of June 2005:

Changes such as we require are handled by the Modification Unit and are accepted ONLY by mail. YOU CAN NOT DO THIS IN PERSON AS BEFORE.

Along with the letter requesting the change you must submit the following:

Application fee of $27.00 US in the form of Personal Check or MO made out to New Jersey State Treasurer.
A seal copy of the court order of the name change.
A NOTARIZED Copy of the Surgeon's Letter.
Your original birth information. It can be hand written including Date, Place (Municipality), Parents. ( Or it may be a copy of a Birth Certificate.)
Return Address and Phone number.
Mail to:
New Jersey Department of Vital Statistics
P.O. Box 370
Trenton,N.J. 08625
Attn: Modifications Unit

Updated New Jersey information as of November 2002:

The filing fee for the name change was 175.00, and I had to post an ad in the local paper, once prior to the judgement being rendered, and once after. I paid I believe about 45 dollars for the both ads to run. There is a fee of 5.00 for each copy of the rendered judgment to be sealed, and the seal is essential for it to be used to change other documents. The document also has to be registered with the State, and that is an additional 50.00 fee. As far as the gender change, one contacts the State dept. of health to petition the gender change, and you can include the court order only after it's validated by the state. A simple letter however from the surgeon doesn't suffice, what they required in my case was a notarized copy of the actual surgical report. Changing the driver's license also requires proof of SRS having been performed.

Contact information:

State of New Jersey
Department of Health
P.O. Box 370
Trenton, NJ 08625

Attention: Corrections Unit

Mr. Don Lipira
State Registrar
Vital Statistics and Registration
dll@doh.state.nj.us

For Social Security gender changes see upthread

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=29811&start=30

[Shining Star]

Did not say transgender persons live longer nor shorter lives than "normal" men or women, because there simply aren't any reliable figures and or studies on that matter in great numbers. What I did SAY was life expectance influences certain insurance rates, notably life insurance for men and women.

Far as actuaries are concerned there are two genders, male and female. You are either one or the other, you don't see life insurance rates listed for "men", "women", "transgender", do you? No, of course not because the number of such persons is so statistically small, and many live (or try to) under the gender they identify with you would be hard pressed to tease out the data, though if someone were pouring over medical health records from insurance companies (all insurance companies have the right to access and review information on persons they cover), could spot certain things that would lead one to assume "something" is going on. If you were born a male, and on your parent's health insurance, then worked for a company which provided health insurance, (again as a male), then suddenly several years later are working for another company either as a "female", and or still as a male but now are receiving dosages of female hormones (for which there are few if any medically necessary reasons to administer to men), that alone would tell something. There is a wealth of information sitting in various data banks out there to be mined, if one knows where to look.

As for life expectancy of trannies, no one has an accurate clue for several reasons: mainly because so many girls remain "stealth" and either merge into the sex they identify with, and more still live out side the system that upon their deaths autopsies are not done. Regarding life expectancy for "men" versus transgender MTF, there are diseases which affect men that some trans ignore because they think they cannot get such diseases. Also taking hormones without medical supervision can lead to many diseases (liver damage and or cancer, abnormal blood clotting, etc), which might not otherwise affect a "man" had they not started taking hormones.

Post op girls who die without friends or family to fill in the blanks, likely will have "female" listed as gender on their death certificates, which means any cause of death either obvious (such as murder by say being shot), or due to some underlying disease, will be recorded under the statistical records under "female". The medical examiner or attending physician at death may make notes somewhere if the person was transgender into another sex, but by and large whatever sex is presented is what is going down on the death certificate. Post ops for obvious reasons will be listed as "male" on their death certificates, regardless of any identification stating otherwise, because that is what is it is.

If you want to test this theory, take yourself down to any death record office, and search a period you know a trannie died. You will need their legal name, or whatever name was used at the time of their death, and search for their death certificate. Once located you will see what gender is listed, cause of death and if any special notations were make regarding their trans-gender.

As for life expectancy of tyrannies, both pre and post ops, again you are going to be hard pressed to find actual data, though someone like Dr. Futterweit may have some figures. It is hard to put all transgender both pre and post op into one group because their lifestyles vary greatly. On one had you have what some call "men in dresses"and or those girls living under stealth, who had access to health care all their lives( either via employer or private health insurance, or paid out of their own pockets), both before and after the operation. Access to good health care means routine medical exams, paid prescription plans and other benefits which for the most part give on average a full life expectancy.

OTOH, trans persons who are not receiving or have access to proper medical care, getting their hormones on the black market, and so forth, will have on average a shorter life expectancy, just as with the general population.

Another factor to consider is lifestyle. Persons engaging in prostitution and or other criminal activity have on average a shorter expectancy than the general population. From serial killers to dates gone bad, prossies are found dead in the United States alone in ditches, shallow graves, back alleys and their own homes. A good area to start researching would be in the area of known or suspected prossies found dead, what was their gender. Drug and or alcohol abuse also shorten life expectancy and sadly are found in great numbers within the transgender community. Finally a promiscuous trannie, and or those working in the sex trade have a greater risk of being exposed to sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, which if not treated will shorten life expectancy.

Perhaps greatest evidence of shorten life expectancy for certain classes of trannies is simply by looking around. Of the many girls I've known or heard of since the 1980's only a handful are still here. If one were to pick up a vintage issue of Screw magazine and look over the adverts for working trannies, you'd find quite a large number are no longer with us. AIDS claimed a great many, as did "bad" dates, others died from complications resulting from diseases if not of the diseases themselves, which in many cases could have been managed with proper health care, and finally suicide.

[peggygee]

Did not say transgender persons live longer nor shorter lives than "normal" men or women, because there simply aren't any reliable figures and or studies on that matter in great numbers. What I did SAY was life expectance influences certain insurance rates, notably life insurance for men and women.

Far as actuaries are concerned there are two genders, male and female. You are either one or the other, you don't see life insurance rates listed for "men", "women", "transgender", do you? No, of course not because the number of such persons is so statistically small, and many live (or try to) under the gender they identify with you would be hard pressed to tease out the data, though if someone were pouring over medical health records from insurance companies (all insurance companies have the right to access and review information on persons they cover), could spot certain things that would lead one to assume "something" is going on. If you were born a male, and on your parent's health insurance, then worked for a company which provided health insurance, (again as a male), then suddenly several years later are working for another company either as a "female", and or still as a male but now are receiving dosages of female hormones (for which there are few if any medically necessary reasons to administer to men), that alone would tell something. There is a wealth of information sitting in various data banks out there to be mined, if one knows where to look.

As for life expectancy of trannies, no one has an accurate clue for several reasons: mainly because so many girls remain "stealth" and either merge into the sex they identify with, and more still live out side the system that upon their deaths autopsies are not done. Regarding life expectancy for "men" versus transgender MTF, there are diseases which affect men that some trans ignore because they think they cannot get such diseases. Also taking hormones without medical supervision can lead to many diseases (liver damage and or cancer, abnormal blood clotting, etc), which might not otherwise affect a "man" had they not started taking hormones.

Post op girls who die without friends or family to fill in the blanks, likely will have "female" listed as gender on their death certificates, which means any cause of death either obvious (such as murder by say being shot), or due to some underlying disease, will be recorded under the statistical records under "female". The medical examiner or attending physician at death may make notes somewhere if the person was transgender into another sex, but by and large whatever sex is presented is what is going down on the death certificate. Post ops for obvious reasons will be listed as "male" on their death certificates, regardless of any identification stating otherwise, because that is what is it is.

If you want to test this theory, take yourself down to any death record office, and search a period you know a trannie died. You will need their legal name, or whatever name was used at the time of their death, and search for their death certificate. Once located you will see what gender is listed, cause of death and if any special notations were make regarding their trans-gender.

As for life expectancy of tyrannies, both pre and post ops, again you are going to be hard pressed to find actual data, though someone like Dr. Futterweit may have some figures. It is hard to put all transgender both pre and post op into one group because their lifestyles vary greatly. On one had you have what some call "men in dresses"and or those girls living under stealth, who had access to health care all their lives( either via employer or private health insurance, or paid out of their own pockets), both before and after the operation. Access to good health care means routine medical exams, paid prescription plans and other benefits which for the most part give on average a full life expectancy.

OTOH, trans persons who are not receiving or have access to proper medical care, getting their hormones on the black market, and so forth, will have on average a shorter life expectancy, just as with the general population.

Another factor to consider is lifestyle. Persons engaging in prostitution and or other criminal activity have on average a shorter expectancy than the general population. From serial killers to dates gone bad, prossies are found dead in the United States alone in ditches, shallow graves, back alleys and their own homes. A good area to start researching would be in the area of known or suspected prossies found dead, what was their gender. Drug and or alcohol abuse also shorten life expectancy and sadly are found in great numbers within the transgender community. Finally a promiscuous trannie, and or those working in the sex trade have a greater risk of being exposed to sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, which if not treated will shorten life expectancy.

Perhaps greatest evidence of shorten life expectancy for certain classes of trannies is simply by looking around. Of the many girls I've known or heard of since the 1980's only a handful are still here. If one were to pick up a vintage issue of Screw magazine and look over the adverts for working trannies, you'd find quite a large number are no longer with us. AIDS claimed a great many, as did "bad" dates, others died from complications resulting from diseases if not of the diseases themselves, which in many cases could have been managed with proper health care, and finally suicide.

Post 2700

I too have buried enough girls, and been to enough funerals that I can
agree with the many points you've made.

Some girls get extremely poor health care, and thus their mortality
rates go up.

Other girls have excellent health care, and live long healthy lives.

Others are impacted by substance abuse, mental health issues,
interactions with LE, HIV / AIDS / STIs, suicide, homicide, and
assorted other tragedies.

Then we have have the stealth girls, who stay off the radar, LE or
otherwise. Society almost doesn't know they exist.

Bottom line there just isn't much information on the mortality and
morbidity rates of transwomen.

By the by Dr. Walter Futterweit was my first endo.

This from a PubMed search of mortality rates and transsexuals: (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez)

Items 1 - 8 of 8One page.

1: Related Articles, LinksGooren LJ, Giltay EJ, Bunck MC.

Long-term treatment of transsexuals with cross-sex hormones: extensive personal experience.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):19-25. Epub 2007 Nov 6.
PMID: 17986639 [PubMed - in process]2: Related Articles, LinksMueller A, Kiesewetter F, Binder H, Beckmann MW, Dittrich R.

Long-term administration of testosterone undecanoate every 3 months for testosterone supplementation in female-to-male transsexuals.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;92(9):3470-5. Epub 2007 Jun 19.
PMID: 17579193 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]3: Related Articles, LinksDittrich R, Binder H, Cupisti S, Hoffmann I, Beckmann MW, Mueller A.

Endocrine treatment of male-to-female transsexuals using gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist.
Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2005 Dec;113(10):586-92.
PMID: 16320157 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]4: Related Articles, LinksKruijver FP, Fernández-Guasti A, Fodor M, Kraan EM, Swaab DF.

Sex differences in androgen receptors of the human mamillary bodies are related to endocrine status rather than to sexual orientation or transsexuality.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;86(2):818-27.
PMID: 11158052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]5: Related Articles, LinksAltun G, Yilmaz A, Azmak D.

Deaths among homeless people in Istanbul.
Forensic Sci Int. 1999 Jan 11;99(2):143-7.
PMID: 10077858 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]6: Related Articles, Linksvan Kesteren PJ, Asscheman H, Megens JA, Gooren LJ.

Mortality and morbidity in transsexual subjects treated with cross-sex hormones.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1997 Sep;47(3):337-42.
PMID: 9373456 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]7: Related Articles, LinksAsscheman H, Gooren LJ, Eklund PL.

Mortality and morbidity in transsexual patients with cross-gender hormone treatment.
Metabolism. 1989 Sep;38(9):869-73.
PMID: 2528051 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]8: Related Articles, LinksMinyard F.

Wrapped to death. Unusual autoerotic death.
Am J Forensic Med Pathol. 1985 Jun;6(2):151-2.
PMID: 4025267 [PubMed

[Shining Star]

According to my GP, trannies who are under good medical care in *should* have an average life expectancy longer than the average male for their group, since female hormones do offer some protection against certian cardiovascular diseases that tend to affect men in greater numbers. Again, the key is proper medical care and healthy lifestyle. All the hormones in the world cannot reverse nor prevent the damage to one's health from smoking, excess drinking and a lifestyle of poor eating and health habits.

Futterweit is probably one of the last and best of the doctors out there doing real serious study on transgendered persons. Mind you his office visit rates are off the roof, since in a way the trannies who pay for his care are also paying for his research.

Back to "Real ID" for a moment:

While it may seem a laudable goal to obtain all major ID in a new gender and or name, weather or not one has had a legal name change and gender reassignment, one should think very carefully on the matter, especially if one is very young.

We live more and more in an age of databases, and once something is input one way, it can be very difficult to ammend or delete such information. While one may be dead certian at 17 or 18 about one's transgender status, things do change and it is not uncommon for the most sucessful of trannies at a young age, to up and go back into "boys clothes" later in life. Years ago such things weren't that difficult when simple things such as getting an apartment or most types of employment did not entail extensive background checks and reams of documents. However after one has gone to college, held several jobs, maybe even have a passport, drivers license, credit, insurance and all the other papers that make up one's life these days as a female in perhaps a new or different name that what is on one's BC, it can be difficult to a nightmare to stop being "Miss X" and go back to "Mr. Y".

Many applications from employment to credit will ask for "any other names" used within the past time period (usually three or five years, but could be simply all names ever used in the past). While one could ignore the question and say "none", that can backfire. If one has been living as a woman for the past ten or so years, and all one's employment history, SSN information, college transcripts and so forth are under the other name, it is going to be hard to ignore the question. At worst it will look like one has no previous employment history (or one very large gap). Insurance, credit, banking and other such databases most always go by SSN and will cross reference any other names used by the same SSN. So even if one does not tell, pulling a credit report may often reveal the information.

[SarahG]

While it may seem a laudable goal to obtain all major ID in a new gender and or name, weather or not one has had a legal name change and gender reassignment, one should think very carefully on the matter, especially if one is very young.

We live more and more in an age of databases, and once something is input one way, it can be very difficult to ammend or delete such information. While one may be dead certian at 17 or 18 about one's transgender status, things do change and it is not uncommon for the most sucessful of trannies at a young age, to up and go back into "boys clothes" later in life.


That's the same argument they use to try to prevent giving trans related health care treatments to young patients. Alot of the old school gender clinic doctors are like that, believe it is unethical to give hrt to anyone under age 35.

It's a load of crap IMO, they're the patients that need the most help and often lack the resources (jobs, assets etc) of middle aged transitioners who are more likely to be able to throw a pile of surgeries at their bodies.

Its also unfair to us because, if treatment is put far enough out of reach on the basis of age, the odds of passing decrease and the more pain & discomfort is needed to obtain it.

I think the bigger (than databases) impact with purging like that is the people in the person's life won't take them seriously once they decide to transition after trying & putting it off. Family, friends will all be like "yea, here we go again..."

The database concerns have always been there. Nothing is dramatically changed here. Suppose a girl transitions at 18 all the way down to name changes, then purges back- changes the name, then changes it again later on. You think a judge is going to be cooperative with seeing someone who has changed their name once already? Or more? In some states the 1st name change has been hard enough to get ACLU like groups involved (I can think of one such case in NY where a conservative judge wouldn't let a FtM change their name because it wasn't "appropriate for their gender"- and that was hardly a long time ago).

The danger these arguments have is that they can and do become embodied in health care programs, the medical industry, and even the legal system with all kinds of bad conclusions. All that should matter is rather or not the patient is well enough to consent, and has nothing that would make consent impossible.

A sane adult can walk into a tattoo shop and have them put ink on their face, that might effect their employment even.

So should we start therapy programs to force people wanting to get inked to walk around with magic marker on them for a "RLE" for some random length of time before giving them the green light for the 'real thing'? Should the state pass a law requiring a full psyc eval to get inked? Should getting inked be flat out banned to protect people from regrettable decisions or job discrimination?

Not that far fetched of an example, I can think of two states that have had tattoo bans under exactly this argument.

[peggygee]

According to my GP, trannies who are under good medical care in *should* have an average life expectancy longer than the average male for their group, since female hormones do offer some protection against certian cardiovascular diseases that tend to affect men in greater numbers. Again, the key is proper medical care and healthy lifestyle. All the hormones in the world cannot reverse nor prevent the damage to one's health from smoking, excess drinking and a lifestyle of poor eating and health habits.



In addition to hormonal protection, I get a sense that occupational
differences and the tendency for men to engage in more hazardous
and or violent behavior are also causal factors for their shortened
life spans.

Now of course we have some rough talking, rough acting, rough
living trannies, that I wouldn't sell life insurance to. But my opinion
is that if we are able to assimilate into our adopted female roles,
our quality of life should improve.

And this can be with or without GRS, it's primarily contigent on having
a stable life.




Back to "Real ID" for a moment:

While it may seem a laudable goal to obtain all major ID in a new gender and or name, weather or not one has had a legal name change and gender reassignment, one should think very carefully on the matter, especially if one is very young.

We live more and more in an age of databases, and once something is input one way, it can be very difficult to ammend or delete such information. While one may be dead certian at 17 or 18 about one's transgender status, things do change and it is not uncommon for the most sucessful of trannies at a young age, to up and go back into "boys clothes" later in life. Years ago such things weren't that difficult when simple things such as getting an apartment or most types of employment did not entail extensive background checks and reams of documents. However after one has gone to college, held several jobs, maybe even have a passport, drivers license, credit, insurance and all the other papers that make up one's life these days as a female in perhaps a new or different name that what is on one's BC, it can be difficult to a nightmare to stop being "Miss X" and go back to "Mr. Y".

Many applications from employment to credit will ask for "any other names" used within the past time period (usually three or five years, but could be simply all names ever used in the past). While one could ignore the question and say "none", that can backfire. If one has been living as a woman for the past ten or so years, and all one's employment history, SSN information, college transcripts and so forth are under the other name, it is going to be hard to ignore the question. At worst it will look like one has no previous employment history (or one very large gap). Insurance, credit, banking and other such databases most always go by SSN and will cross reference any other names used by the same SSN. So even if one does not tell, pulling a credit report may often reveal the information.

We are definetely in a computerized world, where our purchases, medical
histories, criminal records, credit history, work and academic history are
but a mouse click and key stroke away for anyone that wants to access
them.

I think one of the problems for younger transwomen who are entering the
work force is that they don't have a 'herstory' as a female.

A year or so ago they were a male in high school,or college, and now they
are trying to transition and get a job, and databases are saying that this
person just fell from the sky. Or at worst they are perpetrating an identity
theft.

I'm fortunate that the lionshare of my work history, and academic history
has been as a female. I have been a female far longer than I was that
other gender, and the databases reflect that.

But a girl who transitions and works off the books for decades, and then
surfaces, and is asked for work experience, credit history, etc, will be
hard pressed to come up with a credible explanation for where she has
been the last 30-40-50 years.

[BrendaQG]

We live more and more in an age of databases, and once something is input one way, it can be very difficult to ammend or delete such information. While one may be dead certian at 17 or 18 about one's transgender status, things do change and it is not uncommon for the most sucessful of trannies at a young age, to up and go back into "boys clothes" later in life.

I have been in almost exactly that position. From experience I can say that's bull shit. No one who is dead sure at 17 18 and such ages changes their mind. They have their mind changed for them. Ironically by people who think they are doing them a favor. Saving them from the discriminations transsexuals face. :tsk:

What this country needs is two things.

1.) EVERYBODY TS, TG, GG GB whatever should have complete control over their identity. Perhaps mabey your assigned SSN should be the only unchangeable thing. But everything else should be totally up to an individual. With there being no record of past names or gender status or anything else. All records would be indexed by number not name or gender.

2.)More acceptance of other peoples life styles. It's ok to be conservative or liberal. Just don't try to foist your pov on other people.

If the above propositions were true then changing genders would be a snap.

But NO we cannot have that. That would mean to much liberty and freedom for all.

[Vicki Richter]

I don't know peggy. From what I hear as part of the "real ID" act if you send for a Social security card these days they print your birth gender on it. For non transpeople that is a non issue For transsexuals that is something to worry about. To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed. The gender on the ID must match the social security record or there will be problems.
(Many supposedly stealth women who thiought they had it togetehr have been outed by the social security administration. Social security has been know to send "gender mismatch" letters to employers....alerting them to fraud).

Then there is a moral objection I personally have to any sort of national ID card. That is just too much Nazi Germany for me. Having jackbooted thugs stop you and ask for your papers....then probably being able to take them from you and such if they don't belive your papers.

Let me clarify this for everyone. The real ID will match each individuals Social Security record. Post op transsexual women are able to change their SS status, pre-op are not. The SS administration will not change your status without a letter of SRS for their files.

Some girls have been able to get their SS gender changed with only orpedechtomy's being performed as it equates to "permanent alteration of the individuals genitals" in support of your new gender. However, it depends on how you get your surgeon writes the letter.

So yes, for pre-ops, we will all have to have M put on our Real ID cards unless we have submitted forged documentation to the SS administration. I will have SRS by then no matter what. I refuse to take 10 steps back in my life by being labeled M on my ID. I get carded way too much.

Anyway, for post-ops, you will have nothing to worry about. Post-ops are even able to get their birth certificates ammended.

It's not that big of a deal.

V

[BrendaQG]

I don't know peggy. From what I hear as part of the "real ID" act if you send for a Social security card these days they print your birth gender on it. For non transpeople that is a non issue For transsexuals that is something to worry about. To my knowledge social security records cannot be changed. The gender on the ID must match the social security record or there will be problems.
(Many supposedly stealth women who thiought they had it togetehr have been outed by the social security administration. Social security has been know to send "gender mismatch" letters to employers....alerting them to fraud).

Then there is a moral objection I personally have to any sort of national ID card. That is just too much Nazi Germany for me. Having jackbooted thugs stop you and ask for your papers....then probably being able to take them from you and such if they don't belive your papers.

Let me clarify this for everyone. The real ID will match each individuals Social Security record. Post op transsexual women are able to change their SS status, pre-op are not. The SS administration will not change your status without a letter of SRS for their files.

Some girls have been able to get their SS gender changed with only orpedechtomy's being performed as it equates to "permanent alteration of the individuals genitals" in support of your new gender. However, it depends on how you get your surgeon writes the letter.

So yes, for pre-ops, we will all have to have M put on our Real ID cards unless we have submitted forged documentation to the SS administration. I will have SRS by then no matter what. I refuse to take 10 steps back in my life by being labeled M on my ID. I get carded way too much.

Anyway, for post-ops, you will have nothing to worry about. Post-ops are even able to get their birth certificates ammended.

It's not that big of a deal.

V

I certainly hope you are correct and that the M that they keep on file and do not totally erase does not come back for anyone.