Towards an improved understanding of what a woman is...

[tollroad]

I know how it feels to be a woman because I am a woman. And I won't be classified as just a man. -- Pete Townshend (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/petetownsh386461.html)

For all those who believe women are defined by their assertion of whatever they feel in their minds, I'm sure you'll agree that Pete makes a fine woman.

Among the more rational here, most probably understand that being female person (a woman) is a more objective status than simply how a person feels. A person may feel like a woman but still be a man. Changing your sex ultimately requires a physical change, with removal of masculine physical characteristics; not simply the assertion of a different frame of mind and the purchase of a new wardrobe. For example, if you say "sex change" or "sex reassignment" to most anyone, both the connotation (and the denotation in most cases) is not only the assumption of a feminine appearance, but the surgical removal of male organs and construction of female organs. To have either a feminine appearance and male sex organs, or female external genitalia and masculine characteristics, will not be enough to be considered a woman.

This is true no matter how much the activists scream that a non-op transgenderist is a woman. A man might try to present himself in the female gender role, but even if he does so successfully, he will not be a woman as long as his sex remains unchanged. When determining what constitutes the female sex, we should look to what exists in the natural world. A female person with XY chromosomes (as in Swyer's Syndrome) or lack of internal female sex organs (mullerian agenesis) is a female not only socially but medically as well. A woman with ovarian cancer may have all her internal genital organs removed but she is still a woman. Similarly, if we seek to be women, we may never be able to change our chromosomal status or carry a baby, we can still become a female sexually. This necessitates changing our physical appearance, including that of our sex organs, as completely as possible. Therefore, simply assuming a feminine gender role, while retaining a penis, will never equate to being a female person (woman). If a person with a penis wants to be considered a woman, most people will not consider that person to be a woman, even if a judge decrees that person to be a female person under the law. Polite social interaction may require using feminine pronouns, but to most people, the shemale or preoperative transsexual is not female.

Similarly, transsexual (in the cases of male-to-females) implies someone who has at least begun the process of changing sex from male to female. If a person has no intention of undergoing sex reassignment surgery, i.e., he wants to keep his penis, that person should not consider himself to be transsexual. Such people ("non-op") may be transgender or committed transvestites, but they are not transsexual nor are they women.

A woman looks like a woman even when she is not wearing clothes. Women cannot have penises, and people should not deceive themselves by believing otherwise.

.[/url]

[JamesHunt]

what about hermaphrodites?

[Rod la Rod]

A woman looks like a woman even when she is not wearing clothes. Women cannot have penises, and people should not deceive themselves by believing otherwise.

.[/url]

I Absolutely Agree,

Night Rider has made the decision and carried out the deed.

"She" is a real girl now. Tell him Miss Night. Tell it girl.

[tollroad]

what about hermaphrodites?

A true hermaphrodite is a very rare bird. Usually, when someone says hermaphrodite, they mean pseudohermaphrodite, i.e., a person said to be intersex because the true sex is not immediately apparent. Medical and surgical care can resolve these questions.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/popcorn.jpg

[tollroad]

She" is a real girl now. Tell him Miss Night. Tell it girl.

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/nightriderav_184_500.jpeg


This is repulsive.

[tollroad]

By that logic, "women" must also have child-bearing hips and a uterus. Post-ops get have their cake and eat it too?

No, not every women has a uterus or child-bearing hips. Read the post again.

Most every woman has a vulva, and no woman has a dick.

[elo]

Here´s a thread about a pretty similar topic.

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=25324&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=women

[Night Rider]

A woman looks like a woman even when she is not wearing clothes. Women cannot have penises, and people should not deceive themselves by believing otherwise.

.[/url]

I Absolutely Agree,

Night Rider has made the decision and carried out the deed.

"She" is a real girl now. Tell him Miss Night. Tell it girl.

Missed this - looks like I've got myself another bald delusional stalker

....and the gayest avatar 2007 goes to *drum roll*

rod la bald

:claps

http://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/11/21/11/62/genebl10.jpg

[Rod la Rod]

Look little buddy I told you I am not bald and I am not into gay boys. Obviously you have some kind of Daddy fixation with bald men. I wish you well and I hope that you can find your Gay bald Father figure to fill that void in your life.

I am not offended. I think it is just a little sad.

As far as me stalking you. I don't think stalking is necessary for anybody to find you. Everyone knows where you are, right here everyday 7 days a week.
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Total posts: 4329
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As for me having the most Gay avatar. Well I think not.

[tollroad]

"Women" aren't born with penises, jackass. Transsexuals go through a relatively slow process, that a jerkoff like you should mind their own business about.
Bitchy reply edited. I hope you find happiness in the new year.

[whatsupwithat]

By that logic, "women" must also have child-bearing hips and a uterus. Post-ops get have their cake and eat it too?

No, not every women has a uterus or child-bearing hips. Read the post again.

Most every woman has a vulva, and no woman has a dick.

really now...sorry, but this is far from an "improved" understanding. if anything, it's a "step backwards" understanding.

[DJ_Asia]

This thread officially signals the end of the Christmas season!

Proceed.....

[andyuk]

By that logic, "women" must also have child-bearing hips and a uterus. Post-ops get have their cake and eat it too?

No, not every women has a uterus or child-bearing hips. Read the post again.

Most every woman has a vulva, and no woman has a dick.

what a load of old bullshit.
sorry but your 100% wrong.
people are born not perfect sometimes.
i for example was born with a lazy eye,
with a ts something went wrong as the sex was being formed in the womb.
i mean why would anyone want to go through the shit these girls have to put up with?
jeez,stop trying to judge people whose shoes you have never been in.
the one girl i know is 100% FEMALE.
and im so proud of the drive she has to achieve her goals.

[Nowhere]

This topic is getting old.

Non-ops can be legally defined as 'female' in Spain.

The problem with this thread is that it's not about a honest debate. It's about either attacking the girls here for some particular personal agenda or simply the OP liking being a troll.

Pretend it to be intellectual all you want, we've seen it all before and it's the furthest thing from it...

[yodajazz]

As for myself, the longer I been here I see that ts women have the same thought processes of other women. It's difficult to describe exactly. Female thought process leads to feminine presentation. But of course each person is slightly different, it's more like a spectrum. If your a man and your genital were mutilated while fighting a war, would you still be a man? Of course you would. A person is much more than there reproductive organs.

I also tend to agree with Nowhere's assessment of this thread.


This topic is getting old.

Non-ops can be legally defined as 'female' in Spain.

The problem with this thread is that it's not about a honest debate. It's about either attacking the girls here for some particular personal agenda or simply the OP liking being a troll.

Pretend it to be intellectual all you want, we've seen it all before and it's the furthest thing from it...

[CaliGuy]

In order,

male - a guy
tv - a guy dressing as a woman but still a guy
ts - somewhere between a tv and female
female - a woman

[yodajazz]

male - a guy
tv - a guy dressing as a woman but still a guy
ts - somewhere between a tv and female
female - a woman
caliguy - a queer who just joined today

:lol: lol! Nichole I think I understand where you're coming from. I knew there was a reason why I like you so much.

[Night Rider]

Look little buddy I told you I am not bald and I am not into gay boys. Obviously you have some kind of Daddy fixation with bald men. I wish you well and I hope that you can find your Gay bald Father figure to fill that void in your life.

I am not offended. I think it is just a little sad.

As far as me stalking you. I don't think stalking is necessary for anybody to find you. Everyone knows where you are, right here everyday 7 days a week.
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Total posts: 4329
[1.14% of total / 54.11 posts per day]
Find all posts by Night Rider
Personal Gallery of Night Rider

As for me having the most Gay avatar. Well I think not.

The difference is I didn't choose my avatar, that was a personal favourite of yours. And yes it is stalking no matter how long I spend here, even though it's a lot less than people think. I'm not an active lurker, what I need to say I say without taking all day about it. So congrats for stumbling across my post ratio when you were in looking for cockshots in my gallery.

Ladies the results have just came in for the biggest catch of HA 2007 *drum roll*

Yes, you guessed it...

rod la bald

:claps


OK I am 49. Are you happy now?

Pushing that half century ^^^


I have been taking Propecia since it was available. Over 5-6 years anyway. IT WORKS! I take 2mg per day, twice the normal dose. I have had no bad side effects.

I get it t from my MD. It is expensive. It cost about $150 per month for the dose I am taking. Rogaine for me was not practical. I can't put a liquid on my hair 2X a day every day. Too much trouble.

If you shave and let your hair fall out you will never get it back. If you can afford it, I recommend Propecia. Depending on your Testosterone levels, 1-3 mgs per day to preserve what you have, at least until there is a better treatment. It will save most of what you have except the front of the hairline.

It may be available on the internet at a better price. I don't know. I recommend the licensed Merck product as it is still under patent and not available as a generic.

For someone who claims to have a full, youthful head of hair you certainly don't mind spending $1800 each year. I'm sure there's a logical reason behind all this madness that I've overlooked. :wink:

[vegasboy]

I think you're right nightrider. There's no evidence that the propecia isn't working, except of course for the front of his hairline, which he seemed to state as an exception. So he has a nice head of hair with a fifteen inch forehead and a severe tanline on his scalp.

I'm sure it looks great. :roll:

[Night Rider]

I think you're right nightrider. There's no evidence that the propecia isn't working, except of course for the front of his hairline, which he seemed to state as an exception. So he has a nice head of hair with a fifteen inch forehead and a severe tanline on his scalp.

I'm sure it looks great. :roll:

Yeah, I'm sure it's worth every cent :lol:

[62des]

I know how it feels to be a woman because I am a woman. And I won't be classified as just a man. -- Pete Townshend (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/petetownsh386461.html)

For all those who believe women are defined by their assertion of whatever they feel in their minds, I'm sure you'll agree that Pete makes a fine woman.

Among the more rational here, most probably understand that being female person (a woman) is a more objective status than simply how a person feels. A person may feel like a woman but still be a man. Changing your sex ultimately requires a physical change, with removal of masculine physical characteristics; not simply the assertion of a different frame of mind and the purchase of a new wardrobe. For example, if you say "sex change" or "sex reassignment" to most anyone, both the connotation (and the denotation in most cases) is not only the assumption of a feminine appearance, but the surgical removal of male organs and construction of female organs. To have either a feminine appearance and male sex organs, or female external genitalia and masculine characteristics, will not be enough to be considered a woman.

This is true no matter how much the activists scream that a non-op transgenderist is a woman. A man might try to present himself in the female gender role, but even if he does so successfully, he will not be a woman as long as his sex remains unchanged. When determining what constitutes the female sex, we should look to what exists in the natural world. A female person with XY chromosomes (as in Swyer's Syndrome) or lack of internal female sex organs (mullerian agenesis) is a female not only socially but medically as well. A woman with ovarian cancer may have all her internal genital organs removed but she is still a woman. Similarly, if we seek to be women, we may never be able to change our chromosomal status or carry a baby, we can still become a female sexually. This necessitates changing our physical appearance, including that of our sex organs, as completely as possible. Therefore, simply assuming a feminine gender role, while retaining a penis, will never equate to being a female person (woman). If a person with a penis wants to be considered a woman, most people will not consider that person to be a woman, even if a judge decrees that person to be a female person under the law. Polite social interaction may require using feminine pronouns, but to most people, the shemale or preoperative transsexual is not female.

Similarly, transsexual (in the cases of male-to-females) implies someone who has at least begun the process of changing sex from male to female. If a person has no intention of undergoing sex reassignment surgery, i.e., he wants to keep his penis, that person should not consider himself to be transsexual. Such people ("non-op") may be transgender or committed transvestites, but they are not transsexual nor are they women.

A woman looks like a woman even when she is not wearing clothes. Women cannot have penises, and people should not deceive themselves by believing otherwise.

.[/url]By that logic, "women" must also have child-bearing hips and a uterus. Post-ops get have their cake and eat it too?

This is so true. And all women DO have a uterus. If not, then there's a birth defect, in which that wouldn't count in this conversation.

[Rod la Rod]

I think you're right nightrider. There's no evidence that the propecia isn't working, except of course for the front of his hairline, which he seemed to state as an exception. So he has a nice head of hair with a fifteen inch forehead and a severe tanline on his scalp.

I'm sure it looks great. :roll:

Hello vegas "gay" boy .

So you are into bald men also. You guys are really obsessed with my appearance. I am flattered but like I said I am not into dudes. So I don't really care If you find me cute
I guess you and your little bitch are probably the prettiest little gay fem bitches on the board. Congratulations bitches. You are prettier than me.

Night Rider has already "come out" to mom that he is into Dick. You 2 should hook up.

Since I am a man and not a boy. I won't be able to spend all day with you girls today. Daddy has grown up business to take care of.

Night Rider will have to spend all day in cat fights with the girls like he does all day every day.

Here is something for you and your little boy friend "night rider" to jack off to.

Bye ladies, I will be back later to check on you 2.

[Night Rider]

You guys are really obsessed with my appearance.

Sorry to let you down Rodney but we don't really give a fuck what you look like, it's you that has the insecurities going by your previous posts.


I don't really care If you think I am bald.

For someone that doesn't care you seem to spend all of your time on HA debating whether you have 5 or 6 strands of hair left.


I guess you and your little bitch are probably the prettiest little gay fem bitches on the board. Congratulations bitches. You are prettier than me.

Is that what you've been running through your head at night? How pretty me and vegasboy are? This baldness has took it's toll on your mental health.


Night Rider has already "come out" to mom that he is into Dick. You 2 should hook up.

No, most of my family know I'm into tgirls, they know I'm not a cockbandit.


Since I am a man and not a boy. I won't be able to spend all day with you girls today. Daddy has grown up business to take care of.

I take it that means you're going out to fill a trolly full of Propecia in the post-xmas sales?


Night Rider will have to spend all day in cat fights with the girls like he does all day every day.

I've only argued with one or two girls but there's no girls I've problems with at the minute.


Bye ladies, I will be back later to check on you 2.

Why, where are you going? The hairdressers.........oh shit, sorry

By that stage you could well be down to 4 hairs.....try and keep the stress levels to a minimum.

[Rod la Rod]

For someone who claims to have a full, youthful head of hair you certainly don't mind spending $1800 each year. I'm sure there's a logical reason behind all this madness that I've overlooked. :wink:

Right I guess for you $1800 is more than your annual salary. Here is an idea why don't you get out of that filthy shack that you sit in all day. Maybe go outside and blow the stink off.

Wouldn't it be nice to take a break from sitting in your own feces?

[Night Rider]

For someone who claims to have a full, youthful head of hair you certainly don't mind spending $1800 each year. I'm sure there's a logical reason behind all this madness that I've overlooked. :wink:

Right I guess for you $1800 is more than your annual salary. Here is an idea why don't you get out of that filthy shack that you sit in all day. Maybe go outside and blow the stink off.

Wouldn't it be nice to take a break from sitting in your own feces?

I'm not exactly rich but I'm earning an above average salary. $1800 could get you a holiday package rather than waste it on hair loss tablets, especially if you're not bald like you claim :lol:

[vegasboy]

Hello vegas "gay" boy .

So you are into bald men also. You guys are really obsessed with my appearance. I am flattered but like I said I am not into dudes. So I don't really care If you find me cute
I guess you and your little bitch are probably the prettiest little gay fem bitches on the board. Congratulations bitches. You are prettier than me.

Night Rider has already "come out" to mom that he is into Dick. You 2 should hook up.

Since I am a man and not a boy. I won't be able to spend all day with you girls today. Daddy has grown up business to take care of.

Night Rider will have to spend all day in cat fights with the girls like he does all day every day.

Here is something for you and your little boy friend "night rider" to jack off to.

Bye ladies, I will be back later to check on you 2.
Granted, this is an unfortunate handle, but I chose it once to browse, and can change it since I have only 60 odd posts. Every day you sign on here you're choosing not to remove that gay avatar, featuring some crooning faggot with a pompadour that you said is a sex symbol in the London gay scene. Think about it. Didn't you dare somebody to badmouth that guy in San Francisco :D ?

I wouldn't have joined the little debate except I saw in the other thread you said something about wanting to pound some guy's new vagina. I know you thought this was funny but some of us are here for the girls...we don't see other guys as potential post-ops to make passes at.

Another thing. It is kind of funny that he found that post of yours. You're 49, which is nearly three decades my senior you're fucking bald or knocking on the door of being bald. It's a matter of time. Every day you're gonna wake up and see more hair on the pillow :lol: ..and think maybe I should use the rogaine AND the propecia..maybe I should get a rug...maybe I should spraypaint my 49 year old scalp. No big deal, just go bald with dignity...you are afterall nearly a senior citizen.

[vegasboy]

Hey Rod,
don't take it to heart. What did you think of that Kevin Spacey that was linked? I don't mean do you think he'd look good as a woman. I mean, would you say you have more or less hair than that? Serious question. Anyhow live long and prosper.

http://www.britannien.de/Beruehmt/Grafik/Patrick_Stewart.jpg

[Night Rider]

Every day you're gonna wake up and see more hair on the pillow :lol: ..and think maybe I should use the rogaine AND the propecia..maybe I should get a rug...maybe I should spraypaint my 49 year old scalp. No big deal, just go bald with dignity...you are afterall nearly a senior citizen.

It is a big deal for Rodney because with his self estem and at his age, hair is the only thing he has to cling onto. He's only a couple more years of coming it over from the side until he's completely bald.

[vegasboy]

Yeah, but what's he do about the color. Premature balding is one thing, but for a vain sissy like Rod la Pompadour, I'm sure he needs to shoepolish the hair that he does have.

I'm an optimist...if thing's go well...he can just be like any other guy with a midlife crisis who thinks he's elvis.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/12/66/23126612.jpg

[Night Rider]

Shoepolish would do the job but someone of Rod's class would use some Just For Men - The Rejuvenator

It works on 1970s German Porno mustaches aswell, which I'm sure Rod has to distract people from his comb-over.

[vegasboy]

We're going off on a tangent here. Back to the balding...I mean if he has no hair then what's to worry about the color. I saw a stirring testimonial from this guy below talking about the emotional toll that losing your hair takes, particularly for older gay men. This guy below is testament to the fact that if you keep the faith there is hope for the follically challenged.

[Night Rider]

We're going off on a tangent here. Back to the balding...I mean if he has no hair then what's to worry about the color.

That's a good point...maybe he just wants to take a year or two off his looks.


I saw a stirring testimonial from this guy below talking about the emotional toll that losing your hair takes, particularly for older gay men. This guy below is testament to the fact that if you keep the faith there is hope for the follically challenged.

That's the thing, it's a constant battle because if he's stressing about the situation then he can kiss goodbye to his Homer Simpson hairstyle.

[bezane]

If the hair thing has you down, go to Hasson. They are experts, undetectable. They do transsexuals to perfection. My ex went there for some work. In Vancouver. Or go to Sharon Keene in Tucson. Both are great.

http://www.hassonandwong.com/

[Rod la Rod]

Hello vegas "gay" boy .

So you are into bald men also. You guys are really obsessed with my appearance. I am flattered but like I said I am not into dudes. So I don't really care If you find me cute
I guess you and your little bitch are probably the prettiest little gay fem bitches on the board. Congratulations bitches. You are prettier than me.

Night Rider has already "come out" to mom that he is into Dick. You 2 should hook up.

Since I am a man and not a boy. I won't be able to spend all day with you girls today. Daddy has grown up business to take care of.

Night Rider will have to spend all day in cat fights with the girls like he does all day every day.

Here is something for you and your little boy friend "night rider" to jack off to.

Bye ladies, I will be back later to check on you 2.
Granted, this is an unfortunate handle, but I chose it once to browse, and can change it since I have only 60 odd posts. Every day you sign on here you're choosing not to remove that gay avatar, featuring some crooning faggot with a pompadour that you said is a sex symbol in the London gay scene. Think about it. Didn't you dare somebody to badmouth that guy in San Francisco :D ?

I wouldn't have joined the little debate except I saw in the other thread you said something about wanting to pound some guy's new vagina. I know you thought this was funny but some of us are here for the girls...we don't see other guys as potential post-ops to make passes at.

Another thing. It is kind of funny that he found that post of yours. You're 49, which is nearly three decades my senior you're fucking bald or knocking on the door of being bald. It's a matter of time. Every day you're gonna wake up and see more hair on the pillow :lol: ..and think maybe I should use the rogaine AND the propecia..maybe I should get a rug...maybe I should spraypaint my 49 year old scalp. No big deal, just go bald with dignity...you are afterall nearly a senior citizen.

Why are you interested in my hairline and my age if you are here for the girls? Look fag stop judging my looks I am not interested in a gay vegas chorus boy. I am not here to impress you or your gay buddies.

You are on the wrong board. STOP CONCENTRATING ON ME. YOU ARE A FUCKING FAG. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN YOU. GET OFF MY DICK QUEER.

I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE OR YOUR HAIR OR YOUR DICK SIZE. LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE YOU PATHETIC FUCKING VEGAS CHORUS QUEEN.

THAT IS NOT BETTE MIDLER IN MY AVATAR. THAT IS GENE VINCENT YOU FUCKING FAG.

[vegasboy]

I just got a nice pm from alopecia Rod telling me to back off with the personal commentary. Apparently that's Gene Vincent in his avatar, the gay rockabilly star...you can see him on the weekends rolling around in a barn somewhere with Peter North. I'm sorry, I don't know why you think his status as a redneck would do anything but enhance his credentials as a peterpuffer. :D

I've also started to notice some hostility from you towards the younger crowd here...like a type of reverse age-ism. This combined with the frequent sexual innuendo makes me think that you don't see transsexuals as women at all, but "boys" in drag. Kind of insulting don't ya think, and frightening if you're under the age of 25 and having some older man with a receding hairline trying to convince you you're really femme???? Get some help. Not interested in the sexual tension you keep trying to draw into this conversation.

Perhaps the propecia is converting to estrogen..I'm a quick study...I saw on line that the side-effects are apparently androgynous characters...and the production of thin, downlike hair. So you'll be producing feathers on your head before you get your actual hair back...so good luck.

[Rod la Rod]

Fuck you fag. Where is your avatar fag. couldn't find Bette Midler?

[vegasboy]

bump...

[elo]

I know how it feels to be a woman because I am a woman. And I won't be classified as just a man. -- Pete Townshend (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/petetownsh386461.html)

For all those who believe women are defined by their assertion of whatever they feel in their minds, I'm sure you'll agree that Pete makes a fine woman.

Among the more rational here, most probably understand that being female person (a woman) is a more objective status than simply how a person feels. A person may feel like a woman but still be a man. Changing your sex ultimately requires a physical change, with removal of masculine physical characteristics; not simply the assertion of a different frame of mind and the purchase of a new wardrobe. For example, if you say "sex change" or "sex reassignment" to most anyone, both the connotation (and the denotation in most cases) is not only the assumption of a feminine appearance, but the surgical removal of male organs and construction of female organs. To have either a feminine appearance and male sex organs, or female external genitalia and masculine characteristics, will not be enough to be considered a woman.

This is true no matter how much the activists scream that a non-op transgenderist is a woman. A man might try to present himself in the female gender role, but even if he does so successfully, he will not be a woman as long as his sex remains unchanged. When determining what constitutes the female sex, we should look to what exists in the natural world. A female person with XY chromosomes (as in Swyer's Syndrome) or lack of internal female sex organs (mullerian agenesis) is a female not only socially but medically as well. A woman with ovarian cancer may have all her internal genital organs removed but she is still a woman. Similarly, if we seek to be women, we may never be able to change our chromosomal status or carry a baby, we can still become a female sexually. This necessitates changing our physical appearance, including that of our sex organs, as completely as possible. Therefore, simply assuming a feminine gender role, while retaining a penis, will never equate to being a female person (woman). If a person with a penis wants to be considered a woman, most people will not consider that person to be a woman, even if a judge decrees that person to be a female person under the law. Polite social interaction may require using feminine pronouns, but to most people, the shemale or preoperative transsexual is not female.

Similarly, transsexual (in the cases of male-to-females) implies someone who has at least begun the process of changing sex from male to female. If a person has no intention of undergoing sex reassignment surgery, i.e., he wants to keep his penis, that person should not consider himself to be transsexual. Such people ("non-op") may be transgender or committed transvestites, but they are not transsexual nor are they women.

A woman looks like a woman even when she is not wearing clothes. Women cannot have penises, and people should not deceive themselves by believing otherwise.

.[/url]By that logic, "women" must also have child-bearing hips and a uterus. Post-ops get have their cake and eat it too?

This is so true. And all women DO have a uterus. If not, then there's a birth defect, in which that wouldn't count in this conversation.He's just worried that if he's attracted to pre-ops, it means he's gay. Well M2F transsexuals are women, but they're women who for some amount of time are "works in progress". SRS should be the final operation; not the one that proves anything. And that's if we ever get it at all. For most of us, it's painfully obvious by puberty that we are not GG's. We learn to accept that, hopefully, and do the next best thing which is transition. But that transition is not to get validation from a scumbag like him. I think I want srs eventually, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.You mean post-op.

[tollroad]

I know how it feels to be a woman because I am a woman. And I won't be classified as just a man. -- Pete Townshend (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/petetownsh386461.html)

For all those who believe women are defined by their assertion of whatever they feel in their minds, I'm sure you'll agree that Pete makes a fine woman.

Among the more rational here, most probably understand that being female person (a woman) is a more objective status than simply how a person feels. A person may feel like a woman but still be a man. Changing your sex ultimately requires a physical change, with removal of masculine physical characteristics; not simply the assertion of a different frame of mind and the purchase of a new wardrobe. For example, if you say "sex change" or "sex reassignment" to most anyone, both the connotation (and the denotation in most cases) is not only the assumption of a feminine appearance, but the surgical removal of male organs and construction of female organs. To have either a feminine appearance and male sex organs, or female external genitalia and masculine characteristics, will not be enough to be considered a woman.

This is true no matter how much the activists scream that a non-op transgenderist is a woman. A man might try to present himself in the female gender role, but even if he does so successfully, he will not be a woman as long as his sex remains unchanged. When determining what constitutes the female sex, we should look to what exists in the natural world. A female person with XY chromosomes (as in Swyer's Syndrome) or lack of internal female sex organs (mullerian agenesis) is a female not only socially but medically as well. A woman with ovarian cancer may have all her internal genital organs removed but she is still a woman. Similarly, if we seek to be women, we may never be able to change our chromosomal status or carry a baby, we can still become a female sexually. This necessitates changing our physical appearance, including that of our sex organs, as completely as possible. Therefore, simply assuming a feminine gender role, while retaining a penis, will never equate to being a female person (woman). If a person with a penis wants to be considered a woman, most people will not consider that person to be a woman, even if a judge decrees that person to be a female person under the law. Polite social interaction may require using feminine pronouns, but to most people, the shemale or preoperative transsexual is not female.

Similarly, transsexual (in the cases of male-to-females) implies someone who has at least begun the process of changing sex from male to female. If a person has no intention of undergoing sex reassignment surgery, i.e., he wants to keep his penis, that person should not consider himself to be transsexual. Such people ("non-op") may be transgender or committed transvestites, but they are not transsexual nor are they women.

A woman looks like a woman even when she is not wearing clothes. Women cannot have penises, and people should not deceive themselves by believing otherwise.

.[/url]By that logic, "women" must also have child-bearing hips and a uterus. Post-ops get have their cake and eat it too?

This is so true. And all women DO have a uterus. If not, then there's a birth defect, in which that wouldn't count in this conversation.

No, some women have a hysterectomy for a variety of reasons, and they are still women.

[tollroad]

Fuck you fag. Where is your avatar fag. couldn't find Bette Midler?

No straight man would ever call himself Rod la Rod.

You are gay.

[loSTdoLLbaBY]

i don't want to come off sounding too soft and cuddly on this (but i am so I don't really care). The object of your affection should be someone you're attracted to sure, but if you lost your sight then what-

It's equally important how someone treats you, how they take care of you (not just in bed) what they smell like and sound like- the problem with internet stuff is it's so often verry visually oriented. If you meet two girls and one of them is smoking hot and the other not so much, and you date them both (yes, for some guys on here this is just a pipe dream i realize- but go with me for this analogy) and let's say you wind up liking the less pretty one for the many intangables she brings into the equation- does that make you less of a man? No

Same could be said about an "outtie"girl as opposed to an "innie" girl (you know like belly buttons...outtie girls have a penis innie girls dont) some transsexual girls are way more loving and sensitive to men's needs wants and desires, they take greater care to present themselves as desirable for the most part and shouldn't have to feel less than if they still have a penis- some of us are keepin ours cause the operation has some drawbacks to it.

Regardless of your personal views on this subject the fact is that anatomy is not the measure of a person's worth, and that love does not care about anatomy- get over it.

[tgirlzoe]

All transsexuals were born male. All of us were born with penises and testicles. All of us went through male puberty, at least for some period of time. All of us took female hormones and blockers for our testosterone. All of us have made legal name and gender changes, where allowed. Many of us have had plastic surgery to look more like females. Some of us have had surgery on our genitals to make them appear more like female genitals.

We all know this. The only people who go around trolling, proclaiming their gospel that only those who have had plastic surgery on their genitals should be considered women, are those who would not be considered women by the general public. Instead of actually living as women, their only claim to womanhood is their ugly cunt.

My mom and I had a long discussion Christmas Eve about transsexualism (yes, I've been out for six years, we just don't really talk about it). She said that there seems to be a very broad range of "transgenders". I agreed - everyone from the teenage transitioner who you couldn't distinguish from a normal woman, in looks or personality, to the older, married type who I want to tell, "you have no idea what you are doing!". I told her there were theories about the different types but that I didn't want to get into it.

Do you think Ms. TollRoad is closer to the first type or the second? Would the first type be on here trolling?

[Jericho]

Regardless of your personal views on this subject the fact is that anatomy is not the measure of a person's worth, and that love does not care about anatomy- get over it.

:claps :claps :claps