Cut the bull... educated people talking here..

[ironx]

Found this on the net and i think it should be shared...

The phenomenon of males being attracted sexually to shemales is known
in the scientific literature as "gynandromorphophilia", literally
meaning "love of males in the shape of females". This term was coined
by my friend and colleague Dr. Ray Blanchard. If you or the original
poster wish to find out the truth (so far as it is known by science)
you should consider using gynandromorphophilia as a search term,
either on the Internet or at any of a number of portal sites for
searching the medical or psychological literature, for example Pubmed
at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi.

A brief exploration of the subject will turn up any number of
respectable references, none of which agrees with the sentiment
expressed in your comment. Here is a partial summary:

(1) Gynandromorphophilia is a distinct erotic interest, not
necessarily associated with homosexual or transgender behaviours. See
Blanchard, R. and Collins, P.I. J.Nerv.Ment.Dis. 181:570-575, 1993. I
happened to be present when Dr. Blanchard presented this paper at the
Harry Bejamin International Symposium on Gender Dysphoria in New York.

(2) Men who are interested in shemales identify overwhelmingly as
heterosexual. Even men who are erotically aroused by themselves in a
female presentation, known as "autogynephilia", do not identify as
homosexual. As Dr. Blanchard reports in the Journal of Abnormal
Psychology. Vol 101(2) May 1992, 271-276, "This finding supports the
hypothesis that autogynephilia is a misdirected type of heterosexual
impulse, which arises in association with normal heterosexuality but
also competes with it."

(3) Fetishistic arousal (as with shemale pornography) is strongly
associated with non-homosexual types of cross-gender behaviour. See
Blanchard, Ray:Archives of Sexual Behavior. Vol 14(3) Jun 1985,
247-261.

These references and many others support the following tenets of male
sexuality, which are empirically observed by those in the field:

(1) Homosexual men are not generally attracted to any form of female
sexual presentation.

(2) Sexual fantasies and the use of pornography do not necessarily
have any bearing upon personal behaviour or real world sexual
preferences.

(3) An overwhelming majority of men who express an interest in, or
sexual arousal by, shemale erotica would identify unequivocally as
heterosexual.

For further reference, you may wish to begin at the excellent web page
maintained by J. Michael Bailey, Professor and Chair of the Department
of Psychology at Northwestern University. Here's the link to his page
of Blanchard abstracts:

http://www.psych.nwu.edu/psych/people/faculty/bailey/blanchard.htm

And here is the link to the page about Dr. Bailey's book, "The Man Who
Would Be Queen: The Science and Psychology of Gender Bending and
Transsexualism". You can read the book on-line, or buy it from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0309084180/qid=1052595095/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-7346763-9168937?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Another excellent reference is at http://www.autogynephilia.org/ where
you will find links to much of the work that has contributed to the
field.

I admit that there has perhaps been more high profile research into
female sexuality, fantasy and the use of pornography in recent years,
and rightly so. The enormous social problem of violence aginst women
has prompted many researchers to examine female fantasies and the role
they play in sexual assault. Enlightened by these studies, it would
never occur to a thinking person to assume that a female unwanted_term fantasy
would translate into a real world behaviour. Even so undistinguished a
source as The Discovery Channel has got this message:

"Having a fantasy about a particular sexual practice or activity does
not mean that a person actually wishes to engage in that behavior or
that he/she would enjoy the behavior. "

Taken from: http://health.discovery.com/centers/sex/sexpedia/fantasy.html

That research into female use of fantasy is perhaps more prominent and
accessible, however, does not excuse your comment in any way
pinkfreud. To suggest that gynandromorphophilia is indicative of male
homosexuality is an outrage equal to suggesting that female unwanted_term
fantasy is indicative of a woman's actual desire to be raped. Both are
contradicted by reliable information that is readily available to you
as a Google Researcher.

[blckhaze]

good read.

[ottorocket]

Am I gynandromorphophilia???

[Luna555]

Wait sooo im a male in the form of a female...hmm okay so then as long as guy looks like a girl(even if its just for one day or even one hour)....they are transsexuals...okay...wow. Im tired of all these Harry Benjamin Bullshit. These people are not even transsexuals themselves and the people that are transsexuals that are involved are probably just brainwashed by all of this non transsexual people making this shit up.


(I know I am not acting like my usual self but I feel like speaking what I think today about everything!)

[ironx]

Wait sooo im a male in the form of a female...hmm okay so then as long as guy looks like a girl(even if its just for one day or even one hour)....they are transsexuals...okay...wow. Im tired of all these Harry Benjamin Bullshit. These people are not even transsexuals themselves and the people that are transsexuals that are involved are probably just brainwashed by all of this non transsexual people making this shit up.


(I know I am not acting like my usual self but I feel like speaking what I think today about everything!)

This is all about being called Gay if you're in to TS.. which is BULLLLLLLL

[Night Rider]

(I know I am not acting like my usual self but I feel like speaking what I think today about everything!)

We like your firey side :mrgreen:

[Luna555]

Wait do you belive this?

The phenomenon of males being attracted sexually to shemales is known
in the scientific literature as "gynandromorphophilia", literally
meaning "love of males in the shape of females".

Because if you do then by that definition everyone here (EVERYONE) are gay guys and thats including myself. A guy who looks like a girl is still a guyand mostlikely no matter how they look still act like a guy and live like a guy.

I am not a guy, I am a girl that looks like a girl with a special something :).

[lust4ts]

I knew I wasn't gay, now I can sleep at night, thank's :lol:

[Luna555]

(I know I am not acting like my usual self but I feel like speaking what I think today about everything!)

We like your firey side :mrgreen:

;) Ill be back to my old self tomorrow most likely. :)

[Night Rider]

We like that side too Luna :mrgreen:

To the OP, I think you're right in saying that men who are attracted to transsexuals are not gay. But if we're not gay, then that means transsexuals are women.

[ottorocket]

Wait do you belive this?

The phenomenon of males being attracted sexually to shemales is known
in the scientific literature as "gynandromorphophilia", literally
meaning "love of males in the shape of females".

Because if you do then by that definition everyone here (EVERYONE) are gay guys and thats including myself. A guy who looks like a girl is still a guyand mostlikely no matter how they look still act like a guy and live like a guy.

I am not a guy, I am a girl that looks like a girl with a special something :).

Your personality right? :P

[Luna555]

Yep thats exactly it! What else could it be? ;)

[Luna555]

I dont mind being considered the third sex. But to say that I am a male in the form of a female thats just wrong.

[Fox]

Thanks for sharing that, but... *yawn*

I'll kindly go back to not caring what "science" thinks. :p

[catpower]

This is very interesting and it make a lot of sense.

Cheers for the post.

[Nowhere]

Ok, so they formalized academically what we all know here.

The point is? :?:

[Nowhere]

Ok, so they formalized academically what we all know here.

The point is? :?:Actually "we" don't all know that, or there would be no "am I gay" threads.

Sorry, keep on forgetting that! Valid point!

[Tobe]

Gynandromorphophiliac: whew, that's a mouthful. Great, so someone put together a few latin roots to get a word describing someone who likes transsexuals.

The way I see it is as such: MTF transsexuals have feminine secondary sexual characteristics. Attraction in a man's mind is based on these characteristics. So, based on this, they are viewed as female forms with an alternative set of genitalia.

I'd be interested to learn at what time someone's attraction to transsexuals or to "shemale" pornography develops. Has anyone been attracted to MTF transsexuals from the start or has it developed over time?

What I propose may happen is the following: Either through porn or real world experiences, the normal vanilla attractive female form may get boring. To spice things up, certain men may look towards different types of women: different body shapes, different ages, different races, and eventually transsexuals... Is it a variety thing? Or, on the contrary, are some people attracted exclusively to transsexuals?

[bezane]

Pursuit of that elusive definitions. Me, I like girls. Whether or not they have a cock or not doesn't matter. I guess if I had to choose, I prefer them with a cock. I like Nicole's transwoman thing. But I'm adaptable. Call me gay. Call me straight. Just hope the hot TSgirls keep calling.

I'm ranking them as follows:

Pre-op TS girls
Genetic girls
Post-op girls

But if I like someone for "who they are" instead of "what they are" then watch out. I'm loyal, passionate and ready and willing.

And in regards to the scholarly mish mash. It's mental masturbation. They pay people to study that stuff?

[echimandu]

Wait do you belive this?

The phenomenon of males being attracted sexually to shemales is known
in the scientific literature as "gynandromorphophilia", literally
meaning "love of males in the shape of females".

Because if you do then by that definition everyone here (EVERYONE) are gay guys and thats including myself. A guy who looks like a girl is still a guyand mostlikely no matter how they look still act like a guy and live like a guy.

I am not a guy, I am a girl that looks like a girl with a special something :).Doesn't seem like you read the whole thing. Please read it again before you make moronic statements. That clearly is not what the article says. That is you're interpretation.

[Colorado Dan]

I think I sort of agree with it! As for myself! I like T-grls, the same as regular girls, big boobs, small waists and curvy asses, but then why do I want to suck a cock on a shemale, when the thought of doing it to a guy repulses me? So I KNOW Im not gay! But what exactly am I ???? later

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Personally I consider myself to be the 3rd gender; a transwoman.

In the PI, everyone that belongs to the GLBT community are labeled the 3rd gender. It fascinates me how everyone could be lump into the same category! :roll: When clearly there is evident distinction of species. :evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

[JustMeHere]

Whew! Now I don't have to worry about catching "the gay" from this forum.

Seriously though, I like words. I'm an aspiring writer, it's obligatory that I enjoy the occasional rant. That, however, was entirely useless. Interesting to read what "professionals" think about all this, but that's the extent of my fascination with it. But I don't particularly see how it can be grounded in anything. People may enjoy TGirls for millions of reasons, and as far as fetishes go, well, they can be as simple as just needing to have the lights on while you're having "the sex". ... Ok, so they pigeon-holed a few people, made some generalizations, and put it to big words. Huzzah for them! And while there are scientific studies on everything from seedless watermelons to inter-dimensional Fed Ex shipping, I don't entirely see what this particular one is trying to accomplish.

So, in summary. For me, I like ot know what people think about us, but I woulnd't read into it at all.

I don't know, maybe I'm just naive or maybe the gynandromorphophilia has just gotten to my head.

[MacShreach]

Ray Blanchard has been widely discredited. The importance of his work which depends on an absurdly small, self-selected sample, has been blown out of all proportion simply by the very small amount of work that has been done in this field.

Blanchard's work was largely unknown until it was promoted by Dr Anne Lawrence.

The jury, in effect is out on Blanchard but in my opinion, having read the work, Blanchard made some good observations but is clearly guilty of attempting to find proof for a pre-conceived theory. Although his supporters present his work as fundamental, this is not established to be the case outside that group.

Here is a critique of his work.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ray-blanchard.html

[ironx]

... quite a stir-up this little bit of text is causing ...

I for one think there is something right about it...

Most "normal" heterosexual men if they see a beautiful woman starting from the top, face, tits, nice figure, they freak out when they see a cock hanging down below... but the heterosexual that get's a turn on from that is not gay (can be but it's not a must be) but there is definitely something different about him...

Unfortunately for the man that likes the idea of the third sex is that most TS want to loose the "thing"... as they want to be all woman... I think that most post-op TS wouldn't give another glance at the kind of guy that's on this board after her surgery... as we in their eyes ain't normal either.. :roll:

[bilko]

who gives a fuck?
do what you enjoy doing,and fuck labels.

[PghTGrlLvr]

Tobe wrote:
Gynandromorphophiliac: whew, that's a mouthful. Great, so someone put together a few latin roots to get a word describing someone who likes transsexuals.
The way I see it is as such: MTF transsexuals have feminine secondary sexual characteristics. Attraction in a man's mind is based on these characteristics. So, based on this, they are viewed as female forms with an alternative set of genitalia.
I'd be interested to learn at what time someone's attraction to transsexuals or to "shemale" pornography develops. Has anyone been attracted to MTF transsexuals from the start or has it developed over time?
What I propose may happen is the following: Either through porn or real world experiences, the normal vanilla attractive female form may get boring. To spice things up, certain men may look towards different types of women: different body shapes, different ages, different races, and eventually transsexuals... Is it a variety thing? Or, on the contrary, are some people attracted exclusively to transsexuals?
and bezane proposed:
Pursuit of that elusive definitions. Me, I like girls. Whether or not they have a cock or not doesn't matter. I guess if I had to choose, I prefer them with a cock. I like Nicole's transwoman thing. But I'm adaptable. Call me gay. Call me straight. Just hope the hot TSgirls keep calling.

I'd say we're getting some VERY smart, well adjusted and don't give a shit what "they" say people in here!! :) :) :)
I concur............ I became physically attracted to TS's from the first time I saw Sulka in Hustler magazine in the '70s. Then again, I've always been attracted (physically & sexually) to women, and I've always loved looking at, touching and sucking cock.
As far as "love of males in the shape of females" I ain't buyin' it.
Yeah, do guys generally like hangin' out with guys more than girls, sure. Most guys would rather shoot pool with the guys than bake cookies with the wife, that doesn't mean your attracted to guys. I mean lets face it, most guys (me included) at times are arrogant assholes, and macho morons.
as bezane said: But if I like someone for "who they are" instead of "what they are" then watch out. I'm loyal, passionate and ready and willing.
I'm not attracted to anyone who is an asshole, but if somebody is fun to be around, has a good personality, and in the case of women are at least physically attractive, I'll go for it. And yeah, I see TS's as women not guys in drag. I guess I just like making peeps happy, and sex in all it's various forms does make most people happy :)
So yeah, I'll suck a guy's dick, not because I'm "physically" atrtracted to him, I'll do it because I like to suck dick. I also love to go down on women. So call me what you will....some scientific term, bi, gay, straight, Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
But now I think I'm starting to ramble so I'm outta here............... :shrug

[peggygee]

..they are transsexuals...okay...wow. Im tired of all these Harry Benjamin Bullshit. These people are not even transsexuals themselves and the people that are transsexuals that are involved are probably just brainwashed by all of this non transsexual people making this shit up.


(I know I am not acting like my usual self but I feel like speaking what I think today about everything!)


The material quoted is not that of the Harry S. Benjamin theorists.


Ray Blanchard has been widely discredited. The importance of his work which depends on an absurdly small, self-selected sample, has been blown out of all proportion simply by the very small amount of work that has been done in this field.

Blanchard's work was largely unknown until it was promoted by Dr Anne Lawrence.

The jury, in effect is out on Blanchard but in my opinion, having read the work, Blanchard made some good observations but is clearly guilty of attempting to find proof for a pre-conceived theory. Although his supporters present his work as fundamental, this is not established to be the case outside that group.

Here is a critique of his work.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ray-blanchard.html


At this site you will find Lynn Conway, et al provide intensive, and exhaustive
insight and discussion on Blanchard and Bailey, replete with cites and
supporting material. (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/LynnsReviewOfBaileysBook.html#How)

Here is the Benjamin website:

http://www.wpath.org/

Here is the Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale, which I
highly recommend for anyone truly interested in the study of
transgenderism:

http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

Here is the Kinsey scale:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

[MacShreach]

<snip>


At this site you will find Lynn Conway, et al provide intensive, and exhaustive
insight and discussion on Blanchard and Bailey, replete with cites and
supporting material. (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/LynnsReviewOfBaileysBook.html#How)

<snip>

Speaking as a writer, I am very much impressed by Lynn Conway's work, the more so because it is not her major academic discipline.

The one thing that is most striking about the issue of transsexualism, to me professionally anyway, is the incredible paucity of adequately funded, widescale research.

If you accept Lynn Conway's statistical analysis, and I do, the incidence of known post operative transsexualism in the US is AT LEAST 1:2500. Frankly if this was a recognised genetic disorder, a disease or psychological disorder affecting that number of people, we would be awash with scientific literature about it, and we really are not.

You have to ask why. (Well, maybe I have to ask why, because it's one of the things I do.) The fact that there seems no option for pharmaceutical companies to make megabucks out of it would only partially explain it. There must be another reason. It's a genuinely fascinating subject, so why are there not doctoral theses by the ream on it?

BTW Peggy I don't mean to slight what you say by snipping, it's just a habit from Usenet days.

[BrendaQG]

I am leaving Autogynephilia aside for a moment and sticking to the original purpose of this thread. Dr. Blanchards ideas explain how a male could be specifically attracted to women and mtf transsexuals but not to men. Thus the admiers here are not gay.

What I personally know about his ideas regarding transsexuals is that he was wrong to try and prove that "autogynephilia" causes "non-homosexual transsexualism". I did some research in the field of mathematical psychology in which I applied the rules of quantum theory to the human mind. I showed that a trait like autogynephilia could only be an emergent property of being a transsexual who is into women. It can be said that I have mathematically proven his main idea partially wrong. (the status of the paper I wrote and sent to a journal on this is and has been "with editor" sicne september.)

Just my $0.02

[echimandu]

Please read it again before you make moronic statements.Please stop being a confrontational prick.YOU FUCKING CIRCUS FREAK! SHUT THE FUCK UP. Did I say anything to you? No. Mind you're fucking business. And give up escorting and join the circus. Thats you're calling. Anyone that dates something like you should be held for observation. I've always found you to look and act repulsive, but I've been nice not to say anything to you. This is not an attack. You picked my quote to start something so you get what you deserve. Finally, I'm not a fag, therefore, I will not respond to any further ignorant retorts from you. No argument back and forth like you do with others here. I don't get down like that. Btw, the bearded lady wanted to know if you're available for a tour. Fucking carnival act!

[ottorocket]

Could it just be that human sexuality and its physical manifestations is broader than the narrow social/moral constructs we're taught to live by? Ignorant is the person that doesn't look out of the window, but is happy with looking at just 4 walls.

[MacShreach]

Could it just be that human sexuality and its physical manifestations is broader than the narrow social/moral constructs we're taught to live by?

Yes. You might want to compare the dualistic approach of many Western cultures to this with a pluralistic one, eg (but not restricted to) Buddhist-based Thai culture, on this.

[peggygee]

<snip>


At this site you will find Lynn Conway, et al provide intensive, and exhaustive
insight and discussion on Blanchard and Bailey, replete with cites and
supporting material. (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/LynnsReviewOfBaileysBook.html#How)

<snip>

Speaking as a writer, I am very much impressed by Lynn Conway's work, the more so because it is not her major academic discipline.

The one this that is most striking about the issue of transsexualism, to me professionally anyway, is the incredible paucity of adequately funded, widescale research.

If you accept Lynn Conway's statistical analysis, and I do, the incidence of known post operative transsexualism in the US is AT LEAST 1:2500. Frankly if this was a recognised genetic disorder, a disease or psychological disorder affecting that number of people, we would be awash with scientific literature about it, and we really are not.

You have to ask why. (Well, maybe I have to ask why, because it's one of the things I do.) The fact that there seems no option for pharmaceutical companies to make megabucks out of it would only partially explain it. There must be another reason. It's a genuinely fascinating subject, so why are there not doctoral theses by the ream on it?

BTW Peggy I don't mean to slight what you say by snipping, it's just a habit from Usenet days.

No umbrage taken at your snipping my posts. I realize they are often
lengthy, and to quote them in their totality would take up much needed space.

On to your other point; Sadly too often people learn everything they know
about transgenderism from porn sites.

Equally sad is that there is much misinformation strewn in with the sexual
content, thus men as well as women don't always learn the basics about
a subject that impacts them so profoundly.

There have been studies, scores of them, and there is copious amounts
of material written on the topic. One has but to peruse http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
and enter the search term 'transgender' or 'transsexual', and hundreds of studies will come up.

There is even the International Journal Of Transgenderism (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/index.htm) to which one may subscibe to.

Admittedly some of these publications aren't intended for the layperson to
read, but many, many of them are comprehensible to the average
person.

When all else fails :google , but please people try not to learn everything
you know about transsexuals from porn sites, you do them and yourselves
a great disservice.

[Urian]

Blanchard is nothing more than a transphobic and Bailey was a monster that made a surgery in a small kid ruining his life until the point that the victim suicided.

[yodajazz]

Gynandromorphophiliac: whew, that's a mouthful. Great, so someone put together a few latin roots to get a word describing someone who likes transsexuals...


I think that it is ironic that the word “Gynandromorphophiliac” contains 8 sylables and the phrase “someone who likes transsexuals”, also has eight syllables.

Some one will always try to make scientific explanations to understand human behavior. Blanchard’s theories have been roundly criticized as falling short. And I agree with a lot of the critiques, however the explanation here has valid points. And most people here understand and agree with the statements about not being gay.

I think an important point is raised by this quote:
“(2) Sexual fantasies and the use of pornography do not necessarily
have any bearing upon personal behavior or real world sexual
preferences.”

This is important to understand that men can choose to be faithful in ltr’s. Other women that a man is attracted to can remain a fantasy, and not be acted on. Too many women, gg’s and ts think that a man cannot be faithful. Like many women would write off any man who comes to this forum. But that’s not the true case, even though some men do cheat.

As for the word Gynandromorphophiliac meaning "love of males in the shape of females", it could be put in many different forms rather than that. For example I would say: Men who love the female form, but include those with male elements.

[ottorocket]

Gynandromorphophiliac: whew, that's a mouthful. Great, so someone put together a few latin roots to get a word describing someone who likes transsexuals...


I think that it is ironic that the word “Gynandromorphophiliac” contains 8 sylables and the phrase “someone who likes transsexuals”, also has eight syllables.

Some one will always try to make scientific explanations to understand human behavior. Blanchard’s theories have been roundly criticized as falling short. And I agree with a lot of the critiques, however the explanation here has valid points. And most people here understand and agree with the statements about not being gay.

I think an important point is raised by this quote:
“(2) Sexual fantasies and the use of pornography do not necessarily
have any bearing upon personal behavior or real world sexual
preferences.”

This is important to understand that men can choose to be faithful in ltr’s. Other women that a man is attracted to can remain a fantasy, and not be acted on. Too many women, gg’s and ts think that a man cannot be faithful. Like many women would write off any man who comes to this forum. But that’s not the true case, even though some men do cheat.

As for the word Gynandromorphophiliac meaning "love of males in the shape of females", it could be put in many different forms rather than that. For example I would say: Men who love the female form, but include those with male elements.

^^Well said.

[MacShreach]

<snip>

There have been studies, scores of them, and there is copious amounts
of material written on the topic. One has but to peruse http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
and enter the search term 'transgender' or 'transsexual', and hundreds of studies will come up.

<snip>

Admittedly some of these publications aren't intended for the layperson to
read, but many, many of them are comprehensible to the average
person.

<snip>


I was aware of PubMed, but thanks for pointing it out anyway....I maybe was not making myself clear; there is a clear dislocation between the number quoted for the incidence of transsexualism, which is normally quited at 1:30,000 and attributed to the psychiatric profession, and the numbers of post-op TS women we know to exist, which gives a rate of in the area of 1:2500, and Ms Conway provides satisfying extrapolatory evidence that when we include pre-op TS the incidence must be of the order of 1:1000 or higher.

Honestly there is really very little research when compared to other phenomena of similar incidence, if we take the above into account. Your suggested search, for example, produces some 600-odd papers, while a search for spina bifida, which has an incidence of 1 or 2:1000, or the same, yields over 7 thousand hits.

I'm just curious as to why that is, 'cause I'm a nosey old hack. It maybe is not that significant, but it is striking.

But as for the bit about not finding info through porn sites-- I could not agree with you more.

[peggygee]

<snip>

There have been studies, scores of them, and there is copious amounts
of material written on the topic. One has but to peruse http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
and enter the search term 'transgender' or 'transsexual', and hundreds of studies will come up.

<snip>

Admittedly some of these publications aren't intended for the layperson to
read, but many, many of them are comprehensible to the average
person.

<snip>


I was aware of PubMed, but thanks for pointing it out anyway....I maybe was not making myself clear; there is a clear dislocation between the number quoted for the incidence of transsexualism, which is normally quited at 1:30,000 and attributed to the psychiatric profession, and the numbers of post-op TS women we know to exist, which gives a rate of in the area of 1:2500, and Ms Conway provides satisfying extrapolatory evidence that when we include pre-op TS the incidence must be of the order of 1:1000 or higher.

Honestly there is really very little research when compared to other phenomena of similar incidence, if we take the above into account. Your suggested search, for example, produces some 600-odd papers, while a search for spina bifida, which has an incidence of 1 or 2:1000, or the same, yields over 7 thousand hits.

I'm just curious as to why that is, 'cause I'm a nosey old hack. It maybe is not that significant, but it is striking.

But as for the bit about not finding info through porn sites-- I could not agree with you more.

I'm seeing your point a little more clearly now.

I believe the transsexual census is skewed with people from the
transgendered community claiming to be transsexual, and then
compounded by transsexuals who go go stealth and get the hell
out of trannyville at their first chance.

On the second point, about the search results; I believe I recently
read where the formal study of transsexualism is about thirty years
old. I'm not sure how old spina bifida is, but I can see your point that
there should be a much larger volume of material on transgenderism.

As you alluded to in a previous post, there is a lot of money to be made
in the treatment of gender dysphoria: Mental health counselling, HRT,
cosmetic surgery, etc. So one would assume there would be more studies.

[Paladin]

Wait sooo im a male in the form of a female...hmm okay so then as long as guy looks like a girl(even if its just for one day or even one hour)....they are transsexuals...okay...wow. Im tired of all these Harry Benjamin Bullshit. These people are not even transsexuals themselves and the people that are transsexuals that are involved are probably just brainwashed by all of this non transsexual people making this shit up.


(I know I am not acting like my usual self but I feel like speaking what I think today about everything!)

This is all about being called Gay if you're in to TS.. which is BULLLLLLLL

Get it right, you're only gay if you are into TS bring "into" you - literally :P

[Paladin]

And in regards to the scholarly mish mash. It's mental masturbation. They pay people to study that stuff?

Yep and not only that, it's being paid for with your and my tax dollars!!! :x

[Paladin]

I think I sort of agree with it! As for myself! I like T-grls, the same as regular girls, big boobs, small waists and curvy asses, but then why do I want to suck a cock on a shemale, when the thought of doing it to a guy repulses me? So I KNOW Im not gay! But what exactly am I ???? later

don't worry, if you like sucking dick and getting fucked in the ass then you're gay. :wink:

[SarahG]

The problem with using a hack like Bailey to form an argument is just that; the guy has lost alot of his legitimacy through stuff like the book mentioned in the OP.

The guy essentially believes that all ts girls are either ultra fem gay guys OR fetishist AG's who get turned on by feminizing their bodies.

In his eyes ALL ts mtf's are guys- period.

What this paper in the OP does, is shows Blanchard taking this personal belief of Bailey (that all tgirls are guys) and tries to explain why so many people who are nontrans find them sexually interesting without being into guys normally. This is needed to these two figures because failing to explain why so many (otherwise straight) guys find tgirls attractive really puts a glitch in their "all tgirls are gay guys" theory. Its a calculated position to strengthen their transphobic belief system and nothing more.

It might not be the worst way of trying to answer the "are they gay?" questions BUT it is certainly not doing us (the girls) any favors, especially by proliferating the idea that all tgirls are just merely fetishist guys or ultra fem gay guys.



Personally I consider myself to be the 3rd gender; a transwoman.

In the PI, everyone that belongs to the GLBT community are labeled the 3rd gender. It fascinates me how everyone could be lump into the same category! :roll: When clearly there is evident distinction of species. :evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

Finally someone has mentioned that. Seriously, this 3rd gender system crap is illogical if it means defining ftm's and mtf's as being the same gender because they're both trans. It's clearly advocating a system with no less than 4 genders, and possibly as many as 6 or 7 depending how things are worded & classified. Gee, that makes TONS of sense right?


What I personally know about his ideas regarding transsexuals is that he was wrong to try and prove that "autogynephilia" causes "non-homosexual transsexualism". I did some research in the field of mathematical psychology in which I applied the rules of quantum theory to the human mind. I showed that a trait like autogynephilia could only be an emergent property of being a transsexual who is into women. It can be said that I have mathematically proven his main idea partially wrong. (the status of the paper I wrote and sent to a journal on this is and has been "with editor" sicne september.)

That makes alot of sense from a logical standpoint, I would think it would be unlikely for people attracted solely to guys to find a feminine version of themselves to be attractive (aka AG theory).

[peggygee]

Unfortunately for the man that likes the idea of the third sex is that most TS want to loose the "thing"... as they want to be all woman... I think that most post-op TS wouldn't give another glance at the kind of guy that's on this board after her surgery... as we in their eyes ain't normal either.. :roll:

Whoa, this got past my radar.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/RadarTest.jpg

But yeah it's true, I am very, very leery of being in a relationship with
a man with a cock-centric appetite.

:shrug

[NewYorker]

I am leaving Autogynephilia aside for a moment and sticking to the original purpose of this thread. Dr. Blanchards ideas explain how a male could be specifically attracted to women and mtf transsexuals but not to men. Thus the admiers here are not gay.

What I personally know about his ideas regarding transsexuals is that he was wrong to try and prove that "autogynephilia" causes "non-homosexual transsexualism". I did some research in the field of mathematical psychology in which I applied the rules of quantum theory to the human mind. I showed that a trait like autogynephilia could only be an emergent property of being a transsexual who is into women. It can be said that I have mathematically proven his main idea partially wrong. (the status of the paper I wrote and sent to a journal on this is and has been "with editor" sicne september.)

Just my $0.02

What the heck is mathematical psychology and just how do you apply quantum theory to the human mind?

[MacShreach]

The problem with using a hack like Bailey to form an argument is just that; the guy has lost alot of his legitimacy through stuff like the book mentioned in the OP.

The guy essentially believes that all ts girls are either ultra fem gay guys OR fetishist AG's who get turned on by feminizing their bodies. <snip>

Which leads me back to my curiosity about the research issue. I can't think of any other condition-- let's call it a phenomenon, to demedicalise it-- that affects such a large number of people-- as I said earlier, Lynn Conway's very well argued and documented approach fives us a reasonable estimate of 0.01 % of population or more-- where there is a) so little primary research and b) so much of what there is suffers from very clear flaws. Even amongst the papers that there are a very considerable number relate to the techniques of SRS reconstruction, hormonal or other therapies.....That's not primary research into the phenomenon.

IMHO Blanchard, Bailey and their supporters have managed to get away with peddling some really ill-researched and contrived theories simply because of the lack of other research refuting (or even supporting) their claims, and I am at an absolute loss as to why this is.

I am not a conspiracy theorist but if I were one, this issue would have my radar buzzing. Except I can't for the life of me see who gains from a lack of research, though it's clear enough who suffers.

:shrug :shrug :shrug :shrug

Maybe I'm just fick.

[MacShreach]

What the heck is mathematical psychology and just how do you apply quantum theory to the human mind?

I was wondering that myself.

[alphanumeric]

The problem with using a hack like Bailey to form an argument is just that; the guy has lost alot of his legitimacy through stuff like the book mentioned in the OP.

The guy essentially believes that all ts girls are either ultra fem gay guys OR fetishist AG's who get turned on by feminizing their bodies. <snip>

Which leads me back to my curiosity about the research issue. I can't think of any other condition-- let's call it a phenomenon, to demedicalise it-- that affects such a large number of people-- as I said earlier, Lynn Conway's very well argued and documented approach fives us a reasonable estimate of 0.01 % of population or more-- where there is a) so little primary research and b) so much of what there is suffers from very clear flaws. Even amongst the papers that there are a very considerable number relate to the techniques of SRS reconstruction, hormonal or other therapies.....That's not primary research into the phenomenon.

IMHO Blanchard, Bailey and their supporters have managed to get away with peddling some really ill-researched and contrived theories simply because of the lack of other research refuting (or even supporting) their claims, and I am at an absolute loss as to why this is.

I am not a conspiracy theorist but if I were one, this issue would have my radar buzzing. Except I can't for the life of me see who gains from a lack of research, though it's clear enough who suffers.

:shrug :shrug :shrug :shrug

Maybe I'm just fick.

whats to understand? the simple reason for such little reasearch is that in general nobody cares about transsexuals except for a select few who are then labeled "homosexual" by the uninformed masses. Just typical humanity at work I'm afraid...

[ironx]

Unfortunately for the man that likes the idea of the third sex is that most TS want to loose the "thing"... as they want to be all woman... I think that most post-op TS wouldn't give another glance at the kind of guy that's on this board after her surgery... as we in their eyes ain't normal either.. :roll:

Whoa, this got past my radar.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/RadarTest.jpg

But yeah it's true, I am very, very leery of being in a relationship with
a man with a cock-centric appetite.

:shrug

Well I had the feeling and apreciate your honesty... :!:

[BrendaQG]

What the heck is mathematical psychology and just how do you apply quantum theory to the human mind?

Basically mathematical psychology is an attempt to apply the techniques of mathematical sciences (usually physics) to the human brain/mind. The most familiar concept from this discipline would be psychometrics. The measurement of personality traits and intelligence.

For the long version see the wikipedia on Mathematical Psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_psychology).

The Journal of Mathematical Psychology (http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/622887/description#description) is the main journal in this field. There are many others one of which may publish what I wrote. Won't that be cool?

[peggygee]

The problem with using a hack like Bailey to form an argument is just that; the guy has lost alot of his legitimacy through stuff like the book mentioned in the OP.

The guy essentially believes that all ts girls are either ultra fem gay guys OR fetishist AG's who get turned on by feminizing their bodies. <snip>

Which leads me back to my curiosity about the research issue. I can't think of any other condition-- let's call it a phenomenon, to demedicalise it-- that affects such a large number of people-- as I said earlier, Lynn Conway's very well argued and documented approach fives us a reasonable estimate of 0.01 % of population or more-- where there is a) so little primary research and b) so much of what there is suffers from very clear flaws. Even amongst the papers that there are a very considerable number relate to the techniques of SRS reconstruction, hormonal or other therapies.....That's not primary research into the phenomenon.

IMHO Blanchard, Bailey and their supporters have managed to get away with peddling some really ill-researched and contrived theories simply because of the lack of other research refuting (or even supporting) their claims, and I am at an absolute loss as to why this is.

I am not a conspiracy theorist but if I were one, this issue would have my radar buzzing. Except I can't for the life of me see who gains from a lack of research, though it's clear enough who suffers.

:shrug :shrug :shrug :shrug

Maybe I'm just fick.

I can't say that I am a fan of Blanchard / Bailey, et al, but I will applaud
anyone who attempts to look at the causal reasons for transgenderism.

And you are right there is an an abundance of material on surgical
techniques, HRT, pre and post op quality of life data, etc, but there is
a dearth of material examining what causes transgenderism in the first
place.

[catpower]

This is a very interesting thread. Whereas I am not very familiar with the scientists/theorists mentioned in this work, I do know what I am attracted to and what I am not. And for this reason, their theory makes sense to me.

The question regarding how people got into/became attracted to transgender women was mentioned earlier in the thread. I first took real notice of transgender women while at the adult video store (I know it sounds cheesy). I only caught the face of one girl on the cover of a DVD and was struck by how beautiful she was. It was only after picking up the title that I noticed that she had something else. Strangely enough, her physical beauty (particulary her face and her incredibly feminine features) was so striking that I found "the rest" of her attractive as well, and very intriguing to say the least.

I do not consider myself gay, not because I am afraid of labels, but because I am not attracted to other men; I don't watch gay porn, nor do I get aroused at the sight of a naked man. Given, the penis is an amazing thing, beautiful and powerful, (I too have one and love it very much) yet attached to another man it is not something that I particulary find very appealing. It is the female form that is very luring to me--in all of its manifestations--and is the main reason why I find transgender women attractive.

Also, it might be important to note the advances in medical and other technology that has allowed transgender women to make such smooth transitions from male to female. I can't say that I would be that attracted to tgs fifty years ago (I'm not nearly that old), given the scientific and medical capabilities that they had at the time. The modern transgender woman, and--I would argue--the level of attraction felt toward her, is largely due to today's high level of medical sophistication.

[macfan]

(2) Men who are interested in shemales identify overwhelmingly as
heterosexual. Even men who are erotically aroused by themselves in a
female presentation, known as "autogynephilia", do not identify as
homosexual.

(1) Homosexual men are not generally attracted to any form of female
sexual presentation.

(3) An overwhelming majority of men who express an interest in, or
sexual arousal by, shemale erotica would identify unequivocally as
heterosexual.

.

Bingo, I have never been turned on by seeing a a male figure being shown as masculine and saying how I wish I could be with him. In my quest for TG porn I have come across a few many strictly gay content and never did a thing for me.

On the other hand its something about the display of the male body in a feminine form and to have someone who was born "male" represent reality physically and even more reality mentally that female form that arouses me as a male. The notion of the TG woman wanting to be feminine is very appealing.

[MacShreach]

<snip> I can't say that I would be that attracted to tgs fifty years ago (I'm not nearly that old), given the scientific and medical capabilities that they had at the time. The modern transgender woman, and--I would argue--the level of attraction felt toward her, is largely due to today's high level of medical sophistication.

It's true that surgery and endocrinology have made big advances, but April Ashley and the late Coccinelle both transitioned in the 60's into damn fine looking women.

Nowadays many girls start much younger, which is probably the single most obvious factor in the success of their transitions, although some girls who transition late are also very lovely. But I think they would agree they have to work a bit harder.

EDIT: Actually I just checked and it appears that Coccinelle had SRS in or around 1957. So there you go, fifty years ago.

[melissacarter]

I am enjoying the discussion so far. Thank you to the original poster. I agree with many of the theories. Like for example, most men who are into TS women are not homosexual and identify as heterosexuals. I think of it more like this: men into TS women are into women. Period. If we didn't look and act feminine, they would not be interested. Gay is about man-to-man sex. That is not what this website or our mutual interest is about. We all agree woman is the more beautiful gender.

I would say the same is true for TS women. I can only speak for myself and say I feel very much like a hetero woman. My interest in men feels exactly the opposite to my gender, regardless of whats between my legs. I have never for a moment felt anything "gay" in my female exploration. I think of my boyfriend as 100% hetero man with no interest in other men. He would not be with me if I didn't appear feminine. He tells me he thinks of me as a woman. Period. No "t"s or "bi"s involved.

I have an additional theory and am curious what you think:

I believe the dual role both TS women and the TS admirer play is a necessary circular process. In other words, their interest in us is essential to our existence. Just as our existence is essential to their interest. If there were no interest in TS women, we would be extinct within a few generations. Cultural tolerance (which could be higher) gives us the wiggle room to exist in society. We typically end up on the fringes but nonetheless we are tolerated. A great deal of that tolerance comes from men who get excited by tgirls. It's the "if you build it they will come" idea.

Just my two cents.

[macfan]

I think of it more like this: men into TS women are into women. Period. If we didn't look and act feminine, they would not be interested. Gay is about man-to-man sex. That is not what this website or our mutual interest is about. We all agree woman is the more beautiful gender.

I would say the same is true for TS women. I can only speak for myself and say I feel very much like a hetero woman. My interest in men feels exactly the opposite to my gender, regardless of whats between my legs. I have never for a moment felt anything "gay" in my female exploration. I think of my boyfriend as 100% hetero man with no interest in other men. He would not be with me if I didn't appear feminine. He tells me he thinks of me as a woman. Period. No "t"s or "bi"s involved.

I have an additional theory and am curious what you think:

I believe the dual role both TS women and the TS admirer play is a necessary circular process. In other words, their interest in us is essential to our existence. Just as our existence is essential to their interest. If there were no interest in TS women, we would be extinct within a few generations. Cultural tolerance (which could be higher) gives us the wiggle room to exist in society. We typically end up on the fringes but nonetheless we are tolerated. A great deal of that tolerance comes from men who get excited by tgirls. It's the "if you build it they will come" idea.

Just my two cents.

Amazingly stated indeed. It is ultimately the femininity aspect that I believe is critical. The commitment of a TG girl to her feminine self is the mind, body and soul all in one. Her dedication to being a woman is not to be taken lightly for it is the essence of her being. As a heterosexual male I try to realize her complexities, emotions and role in my interactions with her, to treat her like any woman would like to be and I will always give my best at that.

b.t.w Melissa you are very pretty, just the kind of woman I like. I bookmarked all three of your sites. Your bf is one lucky guy indeed.

[Ecstatic]

What the heck is mathematical psychology and just how do you apply quantum theory to the human mind?

Basically mathematical psychology is an attempt to apply the techniques of mathematical sciences (usually physics) to the human brain/mind. The most familiar concept from this discipline would be psychometrics. The measurement of personality traits and intelligence.

For the long version see the wikipedia on Mathematical Psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_psychology).

The Journal of Mathematical Psychology (http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/622887/description#description) is the main journal in this field. There are many others one of which may publish what I wrote. Won't that be cool?
Be sure to let us know when and where it is published, Brenda. I would love to read it. Reminds me a bit of Hari Sheldon and psychohistory (fans of Asimov's Foundation series will know the reference).

Lots of interesting ideas in this thread. As Mac and Peggy have been sidebarring (is that a word?), one fascinating and puzzling factor is how little substantial research there is for a subject directly affecting such a large percentage of the population, whether that percentage is 1:1000 or 1:300 or 1:30000 (estimates seem to vary widely).

[MacShreach]

<snip>

I believe the dual role both TS women and the TS admirer play is a necessary circular process. In other words, their interest in us is essential to our existence. Just as our existence is essential to their interest. If there were no interest in TS women, we would be extinct within a few generations. Cultural tolerance (which could be higher) gives us the wiggle room to exist in society. We typically end up on the fringes but nonetheless we are tolerated. A great deal of that tolerance comes from men who get excited by tgirls. It's the "if you build it they will come" idea.

Just my two cents.

My dear, it is charming to be appreciated. I think you are right about the cultural tolerance issue in that it could indeed be higher. I have said this elsewhere so I don't think I need to go over it again in detail, but I happen to believe, speaking as a sympathetic man looking in, that in order to be appreciated as women, TS women have to break the connection with the gay/fetish scene. Just MHO.

[melissacarter]

My dear, it is charming to be appreciated. I think you are right about the cultural tolerance issue in that it could indeed be higher. I have said this elsewhere so I don't think I need to go over it again in detail, but I happen to believe, speaking as a sympathetic man looking in, that in order to be appreciated as women, TS women have to break the connection with the gay/fetish scene. Just MHO.

Thank you, Mac. That is an excellent point that I agree with totally. I have been advocating that the transsexual community distance itself from the GLB scene for a while now. Ultimately our affiliation will hinder, not help us. Hitching our wagon to the GLB movement may help us achieve greater rights temporarily but it will create the perception that we are gay, or closely related. That ain't what we're about.

We need to be seen as distinct and separate from the GLB population. We are much closer to the hetero population than the gay scene, IMHO.

[echimandu]

I am enjoying the discussion so far. Thank you to the original poster. I agree with many of the theories. Like for example, most men who are into TS women are not homosexual and identify as heterosexuals. I think of it more like this: men into TS women are into women. Period. If we didn't look and act feminine, they would not be interested. Gay is about man-to-man sex. That is not what this website or our mutual interest is about. We all agree woman is the more beautiful gender.

I would say the same is true for TS women. I can only speak for myself and say I feel very much like a hetero woman. My interest in men feels exactly the opposite to my gender, regardless of whats between my legs. I have never for a moment felt anything "gay" in my female exploration. I think of my boyfriend as 100% hetero man with no interest in other men. He would not be with me if I didn't appear feminine. He tells me he thinks of me as a woman. Period. No "t"s or "bi"s involved.

I have an additional theory and am curious what you think:

I believe the dual role both TS women and the TS admirer play is a necessary circular process. In other words, their interest in us is essential to our existence. Just as our existence is essential to their interest. If there were no interest in TS women, we would be extinct within a few generations. Cultural tolerance (which could be higher) gives us the wiggle room to exist in society. We typically end up on the fringes but nonetheless we are tolerated. A great deal of that tolerance comes from men who get excited by tgirls. It's the "if you build it they will come" idea.

Just my two cents.Thank you Melissa and very well said. I'd almost given up hope that trans women like yourself actually exsist. Please continue to post more. We need more girls like you to give a balance to the forum. Sort of even out the ignorant t-girls and man hater/bashers. Thank you for appreciating the fact that men admire you, instead of taking it for granted and treating them like a doormat. There is no substitution for class. Girls either have it or they don't. You definately have it. Don't change anything about yourself. :)

[SmashysmashY]

this website is just a support group for people to tell each other they are not gay.

[Ecstatic]

And it's really only somewhat recently that people have finally started recognizing the undeniable differences between this...

and this...



I guess some folks are just slow, Nicole. ;)

[catpower]

<snip> I can't say that I would be that attracted to tgs fifty years ago (I'm not nearly that old), given the scientific and medical capabilities that they had at the time. The modern transgender woman, and--I would argue--the level of attraction felt toward her, is largely due to today's high level of medical sophistication.

It's true that surgery and endocrinology have made big advances, but April Ashley and the late Coccinelle both transitioned in the 60's into damn fine looking women.

Nowadays many girls start much younger, which is probably the single most obvious factor in the success of their transitions, although some girls who transition late are also very lovely. But I think they would agree they have to work a bit harder.

EDIT: Actually I just checked and it appears that Coccinelle had SRS in or around 1957. So there you go, fifty years ago.

Thanks for the info. I had no idea.

Cheers.

[melissacarter]

Thank you Melissa and very well said. I'd almost given up hope that trans women like yourself actually exsist. Please continue to post more. We need more girls like you to give a balance to the forum. Sort of even out the ignorant t-girls and man hater/bashers. Thank you for appreciating the fact that men admire you, instead of taking it for granted and treating them like a doormat. There is no substitution for class. Girls either have it or they don't. You definately have it. Don't change anything about yourself. :)

Wow, thanks Echimandu. Very nice of you. I believe all women, trans or natural, should behave with dignity and grace. That is part of what defines a woman.

I don't believe being TS gives me license to dis or mock anyone. Especially admirers. Most of you are good guys, open minded and decent. Doormat treatment is only for the occasional creep.