Should there be a seperate Forum just for CD/TV's/Clubkids

[ottorocket]

Whatdya think?

[Night Rider]

If we can't talk about sports in general, then I think TV/club-kids should be made into a different section too. With the amount of fags here it would be the second most popular section, so it would make sense to weed out the TV stuff and throw it as far away from general as possible..

[TheOne1]

is it too hard to ignore the threads you don't wanna read or post in?

[Night Rider]

is it too hard to ignore the threads you don't wanna read or post in?

Yes it is when there's endless cock threads going at the same time as TV/club kids/CDs, when this is a forum to discuss transsexuals.

It gets out of hand sometimes, a seperate section would be successful imo.

[Jericho]

Need a fourth option, "No, get over your hang-ups".
[not aimed at anyone, just general]

I think they're marginalized enough already, why push them further?
I don't look at what i don't want to see.

[trannybanger]

Whatdya think?
_________________
Labels are for clothes...don't put yours on me.


I think it is an interesting poll considering your signature.

[Quinn]

is it too hard to ignore the threads you don't wanna read or post in?

I guess it depends upon the individual. I never even bother with the vast majority of threads out there. From my perspective, it's very easy to ignore them.

-Quinn

[d]

we should also have subforums for cut and uncut... as well as for bottoms...and for different races of trannies..

[NYCe]

we should also have subforums for cut and uncut... as well as for bottoms...and for different races of trannies..

LOL. :idea:

[Night Rider]

Whatdya think?
_________________
Labels are for clothes...don't put yours on me.


I think it is an interesting poll considering your signature.

So you're saying there's no difference between a TV/CD/CLUB KID (men) and a transsexual (woman) :?:

[TheOne1]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

[Night Rider]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker

[Jericho]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

I've seen that, it's an awful idea.

WTF, where did that quote come from?

[TheOne1]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker

but..lurkers still have to read through your posts or other people that turn threads into bitter fights between two people...

[TheOne1]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

I've seen that, it's an awful idea.

WTF, where did that quote come from?


works perfect in chat

[ottorocket]

Whatdya think?
_________________
Labels are for clothes...don't put yours on me.


I think it is an interesting poll considering your signature.

The poll doesn't presuppose anything in my beliefs. Its a balanced poll question.

[Night Rider]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker

but..lurkers still have to read through your posts or other people that turn threads into bitter fights between two people...

Make up you mind. You said at the start that it's not hard just to ignore something, but now you're saying that you can't skip by someones posts.

Some of the same people that said TVs and TS are just the same, are probably the same ones that were bitching about my poll from my thread yesterday. Talk about being a hypocrites and having their heads up their asses.

[Legend]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker


Not really,you ignore people whom you think are annoying and dislike and you interact with people who you like and can get along with.Lurkers only look at at pics.

[Night Rider]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker


Not really,you ignore people whom you think are annoying and dislike and you interact with people who you like and can get along with.Lurkers only look at at pics.

I wasn't talking to you and it went completely over your head anyway. Don't worry there's little chance your "club kid" thread will get taken out of general, so you can continue to admire the smooth bois.

[Dave32111]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker


Not really,you ignore people whom you think are annoying and dislike and you interact with people who you like and can get along with.Lurkers only look at at pics.

Not true - lurkers post when they see a thread with something worth posting about - oh wait, are we stereotyping again? hmmmm

[TheOne1]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker

but..lurkers still have to read through your posts or other people that turn threads into bitter fights between two people...

Make up you mind. You said at the start that it's not hard just to ignore something, but now you're saying that you can't skip by someones posts.

Some of the same people that said TVs and TS are just the same, are probably the same ones that were bitching about my poll from my thread yesterday. Talk about being a hypocrites and having their heads up their asses.
I said that its not hard to ignore threads (because they have titles..) but when people turn a thread into a personal battle and fill up 3040 posts with it...

[Jericho]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

I've seen that, it's an awful idea.

WTF, where did that quote come from?


works perfect in chat


Yeah, but, this aint chat, is it.

[Night Rider]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

then you might as well just be a lurker

but..lurkers still have to read through your posts or other people that turn threads into bitter fights between two people...

Make up you mind. You said at the start that it's not hard just to ignore something, but now you're saying that you can't skip by someones posts.

Some of the same people that said TVs and TS are just the same, are probably the same ones that were bitching about my poll from my thread yesterday. Talk about being a hypocrites and having their heads up their asses.
I said that its not hard to ignore threads (because they have titles..) but when people turn a thread into a personal battle and fill up 3040 posts with it...

Well for someone that wants to ignore my posts you seem to know alot about me. Why are you even talking to me, you're not doing a very good job of ignoring me.

[Jericho]

Some of the same people that said TVs and TS are just the same, are probably the same ones that were bitching about my poll from my thread yesterday. Talk about being a hypocrites and having their heads up their asses.

I'm glad you said some.
I was bitching [as you put it] about that, but i've never said TS/TV are the same thing.

[Night Rider]

Some of the same people that said TVs and TS are just the same, are probably the same ones that were bitching about my poll from my thread yesterday. Talk about being a hypocrites and having their heads up their asses.

I'm glad you said some.
I was bitching [as you put it] about that, but i've never said TS/TV are the same thing.

I meant the ones in the poll were probably the same ones bitching

I've no issues with you.

[Jericho]

I meant the ones in the poll were probably the same ones bitching

I've no issues with you.

Ah, my wrong end of the stick! :lol:
Nor i with you.

[Night Rider]

Ah, my wrong end of the stick! :lol:
Nor i with you.

I didn't explain it right so I can understand why you thought that. :)

[trish]

I’m not quite sure how to vote on this one. I like to see the cute pretty bois. But to vote that way I have to agree there’s no difference between TG’s and TV’s. However, there’s quite definitely a big difference between the three groups, TGs, TVs and CKs (club kids). Yet all three seem to belong to the general discussion forum. Difference is not the proper criteria for separation. After all there’s a difference between TGs and Favorite Movies, yet both belong to the general forum. If there were dozens of different threads on CD’s so that they were indeed difficult to avoid, then yeah, separate them. But there’s only two such threads. Given how few such threads there actually are, one has to wonder…are they really so offensive that they need to be kept out of sight?

[yodajazz]

we should also have subforums for cut and uncut... as well as for bottoms...and for different races of trannies..

Best laugh I've had so far today.


I’m not quite sure how to vote on this one. I like to see the cute pretty bois. But to vote that way I have to agree there’s no difference between TG’s and TV’s. However, there’s quite definitely a big difference between the three groups, TGs, TVs and CKs (club kids). Yet all three seem to belong to the general discussion forum. Difference is not the proper criteria for separation. After all there’s a difference between TGs and Favorite Movies, yet both belong to the general forum. If there were dozens of different threads on CD’s so that they were indeed difficult to avoid, then yeah, separate them. But there’s only two such threads. Given how few such threads there actually are, one has to wonder…are they really so offensive that they need to be kept out of sight?

I agree with this quote. And rather than say theres no difference, as the poll says, I would say I see what they have in common.

[Night Rider]

If there were dozens of different threads on CD’s so that they were indeed difficult to avoid, then yeah, separate them. But there’s only two such threads.

That's actually a valid point. For some reason I thought there were alot more..

[trish]

errata:

i recounted and got three active threads

Amateur sissy stuff...ts/tv/cd`s

This "club kid" would make a perfect t-girl...

Webqueens


The first two are updated about once a week, the third not so much.

[SmashysmashY]

i think if you are looking at this website at all you are probably as gay as a handbag full of rainbows so it couldn't possibly make a difference.

[62des]

Get the CD's and club kids the fuck outta this section. I came here for trannies and nothing else.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Get the CD's and club kids the fuck outta this section. I came here for trannies and nothing else.



Then why are you drooling over that person with no breasts in another thread?

If a girl doesn't have any breasts, doesn't that make her a CD, in your opinion?


Hmmmm.....

.

[trish]

Get the CD's and club kids the fuck outta this section. I came here for trannies and nothing else.

i came here for the assholes. thank god we've got plenty of 'em.

[Night Rider]

i came here for the assholes. thank god we've got plenty of 'em.

me too 8)

[62des]

Get the CD's and club kids the fuck outta this section. I came here for trannies and nothing else.



Then why are you drooling over that person with no breasts in another thread?

If a girl doesn't have any breasts, doesn't that make her a CD, in your opinion?


Hmmmm.....

.

Pretty please drop a link where I liked a tgirl with no breasts. I'm dying to see it. I've never liked a girl with absolutely no breasts. There must've been some natural growth there for me to like and I seriously doubt that she looked anything like a dude. Now drop the link.

[Night Rider]

Liking women with small breasts doesn't mean you're gay LOL

Some GGs have no breasts.

[trish]

Look 62des. I don't mind if you're gay or not. It's really okay with me. What gets my goat is that you're selfish. Yeah, okay...you're here for trannies...but there ARE other people at HA besides you and your blindered brethern.

[62des]

I think that he was referring to TS Dream which I clearly said that from the neck up she's alright but from the neck down she has a man body and I never ever was drooling over her.

[Night Rider]

oh right....you mean she.

[flabbybody]

there were other girls besides Dream who you've raved about, but I don't have the energy to search for the post.
just try not to be so obsessed with the idea of being gay cause of your attraction to t's. it's no big deal

[lust4ts]

Good question Otto, if I gave my real opinion I would probably just be accused of being Homophobic :roll:

[TrueBeauty TS]

Pretty please drop a link where I liked a tgirl with no breasts. I'm dying to see it. I've never liked a girl with absolutely no breasts. There must've been some natural growth there for me to like and I seriously doubt that she looked anything like a dude. Now drop the link.


http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=28054


So..... a tranny is only a tranny when you find her attractive? I've seen CD's that look as good as her.

[TrueBeauty TS]

I think that he was referring to TS Dream which I clearly said that from the neck up she's alright but from the neck down she has a man body and I never ever was drooling over her.


Oh goodie. You called me "he". Can't let that old double standard apply so I guess now I have to call you a faggot.


.

[Felicia Katt]

Pretty please drop a link where I liked a tgirl with no breasts. I'm dying to see it. I've never liked a girl with absolutely no breasts. There must've been some natural growth there for me to like and I seriously doubt that she looked anything like a dude. Now drop the link.


http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=28054


So..... a tranny is only a tranny when you find her attractive? I've seen CD's that look as good as her.

hand over the pink slip (or put it on) because you were just owned. LOL

FK

[TJ347]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

Best idea I've ever heard in any thread I've ever read since joining! :D

[Felicia Katt]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

Best idea I've ever heard in any thread I've ever read since joining! :D

I'm sorry, did you say something?? (just kidding!!!!!) LOL

meow

FK

[TJ347]

.........

[Silcc69]

Pretty please drop a link where I liked a tgirl with no breasts. I'm dying to see it. I've never liked a girl with absolutely no breasts. There must've been some natural growth there for me to like and I seriously doubt that she looked anything like a dude. Now drop the link.


http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=28054


So..... a tranny is only a tranny when you find her attractive? I've seen CD's that look as good as her.

hand over the pink slip (or put it on) because you were just owned. LOL

FK

She looks pretty good.

[qeuqheeg222]

ah jesus...dont we have the poop eating threads to worry bout!!!!!!!!!!!!

[62des]

I think that he was referring to TS Dream which I clearly said that from the neck up she's alright but from the neck down she has a man body and I never ever was drooling over her.


Oh goodie. You called me "he". Can't let that old double standard apply so I guess now I have to call you a faggot.


.

Oh I'm very offended, like I like it in the ass. I'm going to cry. :cry: Bottom line is, that she is clearly SLOUCHED BACK which takes away some of the visibility of her natural tits. Duh Its not hard to put 2 and 2 together. Plus she has an ass which I can tell from that angle and CDs have MAN BODIES. She's on hormones so technically she's a TS. Fake breasts don't make you a TS, hormones do. There's a little natural hormonal tits on her. Since when have you seen dudes with nipples like that. And true beauty when did I call her a man..I said man body but I guess it went over your head to comprehend correctly.

[flabbybody]

62des:
she's not on hormones yet. so just admit you'd love to have her and I promise I'll never break your balls ever again.

[TrueBeauty TS]

I think that he was referring to TS Dream which I clearly said that from the neck up she's alright but from the neck down she has a man body and I never ever was drooling over her.


Oh goodie. You called me "he". Can't let that old double standard apply so I guess now I have to call you a faggot.


.

Oh I'm very offended, like I like it in the ass. I'm going to cry. :cry: Bottom line is, that she is clearly SLOUCHED BACK which takes away some of the visibility of her natural tits. Duh Its not hard to put 2 and 2 together. Plus she has an ass which I can tell from that angle and CDs have MAN BODIES. She's on hormones so technically she's a TS. Fake breasts don't make you a TS, hormones do. There's a little natural hormonal tits on her. Since when have you seen dudes with nipples like that. And true beauty when did I call her a man..I said man body but I guess it went over your head to comprehend correctly.

Uh-huh..... :roll:






Pretty please drop a link where I liked a tgirl with no breasts. I'm dying to see it. I've never liked a girl with absolutely no breasts. There must've been some natural growth there for me to like and I seriously doubt that she looked anything like a dude. Now drop the link.


http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=28054


So..... a tranny is only a tranny when you find her attractive? I've seen CD's that look as good as her.


I called you out. No big deal, just man up to it.


:wink:


.

[youcancallmeclaire]

Liking women with small breasts doesn't mean you're gay LOL

Some GGs have no breasts.

GGs without breasts are MEN!

Did you skip anatomy class or something? :shock:

[MacShreach]

if anything should be changed..it should be an ignore option next to a members name, so their posts do not show up... and they'll slowly be ignored and go away into another forum

Just to remind y'all I posted instructions on how to do exactly that using Mondo Pita only a week or so back....do a search....

[Kirsty Scott TG]

So who would decide which category/board a girl ends up in?

and what exactly are the qualifting criteria? - Purley Breast Size?

Kirsty
xxx xxx

[MacShreach]

i came here for the assholes. thank god we've got plenty of 'em.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rock2 :rock2

Now see here's Trish...Razor-sharp wit, mistress of repartee-- and I have never once seen her be personally nasty to anyone. Not once.

And she's gorgeous too. IMO.

:rock2 :rock2

Now get back to fighting about cocks-in-frocks.

Personally I don't really care if there are a few threads here for CD/TV, it's pretty easy to figure what's what, and you get to know the culprits quickly.

There's a lot more than 3 threads though-- you have to count in all the threads that get CD/TV input, and ones like that godawful TGirlPassion site thread that keeps climbing out of the grave.

I think men who suggest that there's no difference between the cocks-in-frocks and TS women are being downright offensive to TS women, but we all know where they're coming from.

Anyway even if there was a separate forum, they'd just come back.......If you see no difference between a CD and a TS, then you see no need to be somewhere else.....

[MacShreach]

62des:
she's not on hormones yet. so just admit you'd love to have her and I promise I'll never break your balls ever again.
Can't speak for 62des, but no thanks for me. Yes the face is cute, but the rest.....just a boy striking a girly pose for the camera.

[MacShreach]

Liking women with small breasts doesn't mean you're gay LOL

Some GGs have no breasts.

GGs without breasts are MEN!

Did you skip anatomy class or something? :shock:

LOL good riposte but um, not actually true. There are some GG's out there who are so flat-chested they have no visible tits. They still have the appropriate glands, just none of the fatty deposition.

I know this because

a) I used to shag one such and I can assure you, having carried out numerous detailed and close examinations and probes, there was nowt wrong with her fud even if she had no tits. Very nice nipples she had though, made up for it.


and b) 4 years of anatomy classes.........

[MacShreach]

So who would decide which category/board a girl ends up in?

and what exactly are the qualifting criteria? - Purley Breast Size?

Kirsty
xxx xxx

Uhuh.

Tell us, do you live full-time as a woman?
Do you consider yourself to be a woman at all times, and not merely for sexual gratification?
Are you taking any feminising hormones?
Do you intend to?
Have you had or do you intend to have surgical body modification in order to make your body more feminine?--Anything from depilation through implants to FFS and SRS?
Is it your intention to remain as a woman and live your life as a woman both in private and in public?

I may be wrong and I am prepared to give the benefit of the doubt, such as it exists, but you look like a CD to me.

It doesn't matter if ,with a bit of make-up, a man can make himself look like a beautiful woman facially. Nor does it matter what your lingerie wardrobe is like. The chips are down and the truth is told when the clothes and all the other artefacts come OFF.

I do not mean to attack CD's and TV's but the fact is that they are men who enjoy for various reasons, dressing up as women. Many are sub gay men. The men who want to have sex with them are looking for other men to have sex with. Therefore it is part of the gay scene. That simple.

Transsexual women ARE WOMEN.

[youcancallmeclaire]

LOL good riposte but um, not actually true. There are some GG's out there who are so flat-chested they have no visible tits. They still have the appropriate glands, just none of the fatty deposition.

I know this because

a) I used to shag one such and I can assure you, having carried out numerous detailed and close examinations and probes, there was nowt wrong with her fud even if she had no tits. Very nice nipples she had though, made up for it.


and b) 4 years of anatomy classes.........

It's okay. You can admit that you "bagged a bloke", we won't think any differently of you. :p

[MacShreach]

LOL good riposte but um, not actually true. There are some GG's out there who are so flat-chested they have no visible tits. They still have the appropriate glands, just none of the fatty deposition.

I know this because

a) I used to shag one such and I can assure you, having carried out numerous detailed and close examinations and probes, there was nowt wrong with her fud even if she had no tits. Very nice nipples she had though, made up for it.


and b) 4 years of anatomy classes.........

It's okay. You can admit that you "bagged a bloke", we won't think any differently of you. :p

If you mean that you are incapable of comprehending simple English, tough. And if you are a CD who is bitter at the spin life threw you, tough too.

Tell you what--go check Cunningham before you wind yourself up.

[youcancallmeclaire]

If you mean that you are incapable of comprehending simple English, tough. And if you are a CD who is bitter at the spin life threw you, tough too.

Tell you what--go check Cunningham before you wind yourself up.

*facepalm*

I was being sarcastic. :?

[MacShreach]

A example of small natural breasts. Well within a normal range for GG women.

[MacShreach]

If you mean that you are incapable of comprehending simple English, tough. And if you are a CD who is bitter at the spin life threw you, tough too.

Tell you what--go check Cunningham before you wind yourself up.

*facepalm*

I was being sarcastic. :?

Okay. :D

[MacShreach]

Yes...This question has been aired a few times here though not in quite this way and we always end up with the "who qualifies and who decides" issue.

Frankly the name of the board itself is confusing, not that I want to change it-- We can pretty much agree who is Hung but who is an Angel?

And then, we have threads celebrating post-op TS women (though not nearly enough IMO) threads for GG's and even threads of guys (for the girls. I think.)

The CD/TV's get miffed if they think genuine TS's are being treated as superior, and what the real TS girls think of being compared to a man in a wig I really don't want to imagine. And then there are the ones no-one's really sure about-- they act like they're TS, they live as women, but man can they curse a boy out......

Guys who like women get annoyed with the prats who constantly diss girls who get SRS, cause really that's where we want them all to get to, underneath, if we're honest......

The closet gays get all handbaggy when it's pointed out that their obsessive fetishisation of penises is hardly stereotypically straight male behaviour, because all they really really want is a cock they can pretend ain't male they can suck or sit on.....or just fantasise about.

Any time a girl gets all hormonal and feminine the gay lobby treat her like a guy that should know better, and any time a girl starts cursing like a trooper at somebody her gender miraculously changes to "he."

Some people think this is a kind of dating site where everybody is supposed to post their pictures and state their names, occupations and where they live, and others think that about the last place they'd everpost a likeness would be here.....Including the mods.....(and me.)

With the result that we are left in total confusion as to WTF is going on and the mods, very, very wisely IMO, pretty much hand the keys of Bedlam to the inmates.......So no, separate forum for CD threads?....It would just never work.

It works on some sites, Taiaka being a good example, but not here.

ANARKY ROOLZ!!

And BY THE WAY-- all of us should just occasionally reflect on the fact that HA is fun because NYCe is such a tolerant guy.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

So who would decide which category/board a girl ends up in?

and what exactly are the qualifting criteria? - Purley Breast Size?

Kirsty
xxx xxx

Uhuh.

Tell us, do you live full-time as a woman?
Do you consider yourself to be a woman at all times, and not merely for sexual gratification?
Are you taking any feminising hormones?
Do you intend to?
Have you had or do you intend to have surgical body modification in order to make your body more feminine?--Anything from depilation through implants to FFS and SRS?
Is it your intention to remain as a woman and live your life as a woman both in private and in public?

I may be wrong and I am prepared to give the benefit of the doubt, such as it exists, but you look like a CD to me.

It doesn't matter if ,with a bit of make-up, a man can make himself look like a beautiful woman facially. Nor does it matter what your lingerie wardrobe is like. The chips are down and the truth is told when the clothes and all the other artefacts come OFF.

I do not mean to attack CD's and TV's but the fact is that they are men who enjoy for various reasons, dressing up as women. Many are sub gay men. The men who want to have sex with them are looking for other men to have sex with. Therefore it is part of the gay scene. That simple.

Transsexual women ARE WOMEN.

My question was generic, not a personal application to gain your affections. I cannot deny a personal interest in the responses but the question stands who is qualified to decide which girl features where.

Assuming your u-huh response to be a tongue and cheek reply do we adopt your questionnaire as the qualifying criteria to be promoted from the lower leagues to the premier division?

How many boxes need to be ticked?

Does it suffice to be able to tick the boxes that relate to future intentions?

How long is a girl afforded to comply with those intentions before being relegated back to the lower divisions for non-compliance?

My personal situation aside I know many transsexual women who have undergone re-assignment surgery and live full time as women. I wonder how many of them you would like to see on the boards.

What criteria is next to split the board? How pretty a girl is? How slim? How big her ass? Her nationality perhaps?

Now since you have been so kind to afford me your “benefit of doubt” I will generally address the questions you put to me assuming they were not intended to be rhetoric.

(based on the assumption that whilst we are talking labels there is a large difference between the terms TV and CD and that they mean the opposite on different sides of the Atlantic)

That said I class myself as either TG or T-Girl, despite the constant need for labels to be allocated I cannot claim physically to be Transsexual, however, inside I feel far stronger than the majority of descriptions relating to TV/CD. Therefore I feel Transgendered is a more appropriate description. You may disagree.

Like probably all the girls on the site I have battled with feelings of being transgenderd all my life and without boring everyone with details circumstances such as family, work and harsh reality to the current place I am today. I make no apologies for being the person I am today, which is a change from how I used to feel, and I do not believe that this is where the story ends.

There are certain circumstances in my life that should they change would form the catalyst for going further ….. that would include hormones and surgery. For now I cannot claim to have had either, and hence physically I hold my hands up to the label you have given me and have to admit that I do not live full time as a woman.

However, I need to make one thing clear dressing, for want of a better description, is not a sexually driven activity. Yes I want to relate as the girl sexually but that extends into a social life too. I don’t take any offence at your basic and clumsy descriptions other than the implication that being a girl is some fetish orientated hobby to satisfy a sexual desire.

So the crux is until such times as I can be more selfish/brave in my personal life or circumstances change in my life you can call me what you want.

What I despise about this poll and debate is that it seeks to drive a further wedge between this already too fragmented community of girls. Fighting against society’s perception of the transgendered community is hard enough without having to divide ourselves over admirer’s sexual preferences ………

But hey that’s just my opinion …………..

Kirsty
xxx xxx

[MacShreach]

I don’t take any offence at your basic and clumsy descriptions other than the implication that being a girl is some fetish orientated hobby to satisfy a sexual desire.

I didn't say that. What I said was that being a CD/TV can be. Being a girl is something much deeper. Which is the point, really.




What I despise about this poll and debate is that it seeks to drive a further wedge between this already too fragmented community of girls. Fighting against society’s perception of the transgendered community

I've already said I am NOT seeking to have CD/TV's put elsewhere. But don't think that a CD/TV is the same as a TS, only not quite as much. You said it yourself: you are not prepared to put yourself through what being TS would mean you would have to go through. So you live as a man and only indulge in private. You may have transgendered feelings, but you remain a man with transgendered feelings-- A TS woman IS A WOMAN. She does not have any choice in this matter.

As a matter of historical record, I have had flaming catfights with a certain Ms Dupree of these airts, and very hard words were said on either side. But over the last two years Nicole has gone ahead with her transformation, put herself through all the things that you would not, which I am sure have caused great physical pain and no little anguish, not to mention draining her cash and forcing her to do things to earn money that she perhaps would not otherwise, and as far as I am concerned, old enmities notwithstanding, she gets my respect as a woman for that.

I've said elsewhere that, insofar as it is permissible for me, as a man, to express an opinion on this, I do not believe for one moment that the association of TS women with the broader gay movement, within which I would include CD/TV, has served TS women well at all. That is another issue, but if my thinking this amounts to "driving a wedge," then guilty as charged, guv.

[MacShreach]

Interesting out of 68 votes, 39 people are attracted to men in dresses or see no difference between tgirls and cds. Of course, it's far from a scientific poll and some people maybe have chosen B in jest, but still, quite interesting.

Could explain why certain threads "explode."

I was quite surprised by this stat, myself. Maybe some guys are just being nice, or at least suggesting they didn't want a split? As usual with these polls(and I'm as guilty as anyone) the q's are wack.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

I don’t take any offence at your basic and clumsy descriptions other than the implication that being a girl is some fetish orientated hobby to satisfy a sexual desire.

I didn't say that. What I said was that being a CD/TV can be. Being a girl is something much deeper. Which is the point, really.




What I despise about this poll and debate is that it seeks to drive a further wedge between this already too fragmented community of girls. Fighting against society’s perception of the transgendered community

I've already said I am NOT seeking to have CD/TV's put elsewhere. But don't think that a CD/TV is the same as a TS, only not quite as much. You said it yourself: you are not prepared to put yourself through what being TS would mean you would have to go through. So you live as a man and only indulge in private. You may have transgendered feelings, but you remain a man with transgendered feelings-- A TS woman IS A WOMAN. She does not have any choice in this matter.

As a matter of historical record, I have had flaming catfights with a certain Ms Dupree of these airts, and very hard words were said on either side. But over the last two years Nicole has gone ahead with her transformation, put herself through all the things that you would not, which I am sure have caused great physical pain and no little anguish, not to mention draining her cash and forcing her to do things to earn money that she perhaps would not otherwise, and as far as I am concerned, old enmities notwithstanding, she gets my respect as a woman for that.

I've said elsewhere that, insofar as it is permissible for me, as a man, to express an opinion on this, I do not believe for one moment that the association of TS women with the broader gay movement, within which I would include CD/TV, has served TS women well at all. That is another issue, but if my thinking this amounts to "driving a wedge," then guilty as charged, guv.

Ok. Then lets go back a step. If you are not seeking to have CD/TV’s put elsewhere then perhaps you were not the person that should have answered my initial question. My question still stands ……. What would the criteria be for which board and who would make that decision ……..

Now that aside, and as you have stated, I fully admit I do not attempt to present as a girl full time. I have personal reasons for trying to find a balance in between two worlds and fear of the future has stopped me going further. In that respect I have huge admiration and respect for the girls in this site, and those who are just out there getting on with life as a woman, that have gone further and transitioned.

I reiterate that I do not solely indulge in private, I try and present as I feel and as much as possible on a social level and in public as “a girl”. Please allow me that description for that is what I am trying to convey …… I am not trying to be read as a TV, I am not trying to stage a drag act.

I do accept though that when it suites me I can present in my male form and I acknowledge the problems girls who transition have in not being able to escape the way the present. I am not in anyway disagreeing with these statements.

A large part of creating my paysite and the activities therein was questioning myself whether I would be prepared to undertake acts that would, probably although not obligatory, have to be done to help me transition should I go down that route. That situation has not arisen yet.

As far as Nicole is concerned she should not be afforded your respect as a woman …….. for that she deserves much more. A woman does not have to endure any of these things Nicole has put herself through. She should gain your respect as a person who has undergone traumatic experiences to follow her dreams.

I never said that anything you have written drives any wedge between the community either. I said that polls like this one drive that wedge.

Now my question still stands unanswered ………… as in fact do my questions I asked in my subsequent posts which were directed towards you. I note you have chosen instead to pick up on select phrases to reply to.

[gamma aries]

Interesting out of 68 votes, 39 people are attracted to men in dresses or see no difference between tgirls and cds. Of course, it's far from a scientific poll and some people maybe have chosen B in jest, but still, quite interesting.

Could explain why certain threads "explode."
Like MacShreach said, the poll questions are quite wack. I think there are lot of people in this forum (especially after the new picture-login-policy) who aren't really interested much about the ts/cd/tv/etc. difference. I.e. they look for pictures of hot looking people and cook whatever fantasy to go along with it. For porn consumer, the fact that someone identifies as a ts or a cd or whatever is irrelevant because that decision (if any) takes place in the wanker's head. I, for one, don't go hunting for fact files when I'm looking for porn. If you use this forum primarily as source for porn, which I believe lot of users do, then this whole ts/cd/... issue is a moot point IMO and thus the poll meaningless.

[Rogers]

Liking women with small breasts doesn't mean you're gay LOL

Some GGs have no breasts.

GGs without breasts are MEN!

Did you skip anatomy class or something? :shock:
Being picky is not my intention, but ALL humans have breasts or mammary glands. An organism simply cannot be a mammal without them, irrespective of gender.

MILLA JOVOVICH: :hitit , MOST DEFINITELY!!!

[MacShreach]

Now my question still stands unanswered ………… as in fact do my questions I asked in my subsequent posts which were directed towards you. I note you have chosen instead to pick up on select phrases to reply to.

If the question you mean is the one I referred to already though not in reply to you, is that hoary old chestnut "who decides," well okay.

In the end the CD/TVs answer it for themselves; they accept that they are not women, as you have. They are men. TS women are WOMEN.

HOWEVER, there are useful indicators for the rest of us. I asked you a range of specific questions and you have said nothing that would contradict braveman's assessment that my conclusion, that you are a CG/TV, is correct.

I see no reason to have you and your admirers, and we already know how popular CD/TVs are with some gays, shunted off to a pen somewhere else, if only because there is no chance of you staying there.

Purely personally, since you requested my straightforward reply, I dislike that men should put on girly clothes and then comport themselves on sites like this as if they actually were girls. You're NOT. You're men who dress up as girls. Normally I am too polite to make this point clear, but frankly, personally, I find that whole thing a REALLY BIG TURNOFF.

Furthermore I think that the association of CD/TV with TS women as it occurs here serves only to afford the CD/TVs some of the credibility they so desperately want (and need.) There is no payoff for TS women; instead their association with CD/TV simply allows the tabloid Media and society at large to group them together, to write off TS women as a bunch of crossdressing men. Which is something that they are not.

It follows that if transsexual women are to do well in society they need to be seen as not being part of a group of clothes fetishists, but as women.

Now usually I'm quite happy just to ignore threads about this subject, and to avoid conversation with you. But you did insist that I deal with it.

[MacShreach]

If you use this forum primarily as source for porn, which I believe lot of users do, then this whole ts/cd/... issue is a moot point IMO and thus the poll meaningless.

Probably the most astute statement yet.

[tsntx]

trying to claim mila jovovich is equal to you guys finding cd/tv attractive the same way u do TS's is an incrdible insult to real ts women... its fags like you that make a lot of ts's bitter and easily repulsed by men trying to be nice to them... way to set your kind back

[Night Rider]

^^^ finally a TS that knows the score ^^^

[trish]

Interesting out of 68 votes, 39 people are attracted to men in dresses or see no difference between tgirls and cds.

The surprise originates with an (accidental or deliberate) equivocation in the survey question. There are of course important distinctions one can enumerate between CD’s and TG’s. But given the context of the questionnaire, one assumes the questioner means “I see no difference relevant to issue of ostracizing CD’s to a separate forum.”

This is related to what I already spoke to on page 3, namely



I’m not quite sure how to vote on this one. I like to see the cute pretty bois. But to vote that way I have to agree there’s no difference between TG’s and TV’s. However, there’s quite definitely a big difference between the three groups, TGs, TVs and CKs (club kids). Yet all three seem to belong to the general discussion forum. Difference is not the proper criteria for separation. After all there’s a difference between TGs and Favorite Movies, yet both belong to the general forum. If there were dozens of different threads on CD’s so that they were indeed difficult to avoid, then yeah, separate them. But there’s only two such threads. Given how few such threads there actually are, one has to wonder…are they really so offensive that they need to be kept out of sight?

[suckseed]

Strange, I haven't voted but there's no option to. I vote for a separate section. I think it's demeaning to the Ts here, and unless you want to change the index to
HungAngels ,Trannys, Tgirls, Shemales, Transsexuals and Ladyboys, Transvestites, Drag Queens, Crossdressers, Gender Queers, and Guy Who Use Too Much Chapstick, there should be a line drawn. My one thread on GG's seems to be quite popular too, but if half the threads were devoted to them, I think it would be a problem.

[Rogers]

trying to claim mila jovovich is equal to you guys finding cd/tv attractive the same way u do TS's is an incrdible insult to real ts women... its fags like you that make a lot of ts's bitter and easily repulsed by men trying to be nice to them... way to set your kind back
I didn't do anything of the sort. And for the record, I don't find cd's attractive. The point I was trying to make was that a women doesn't need to have big breasts to be either a woman, or sexy. Please check my post above again, tsntx. Some of us actually see women as more than just appendages, whether those appendages be breasts or penises.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

Now my question still stands unanswered ………… as in fact do my questions I asked in my subsequent posts which were directed towards you. I note you have chosen instead to pick up on select phrases to reply to.

If the question you mean is the one I referred to already though not in reply to you, is that hoary old chestnut "who decides," well okay.

In the end the CD/TVs answer it for themselves; they accept that they are not women, as you have. They are men. TS women are WOMEN.

HOWEVER, there are useful indicators for the rest of us. I asked you a range of specific questions and you have said nothing that would contradict braveman's assessment that my conclusion, that you are a CG/TV, is correct.

I see no reason to have you and your admirers, and we already know how popular CD/TVs are with some gays, shunted off to a pen somewhere else, if only because there is no chance of you staying there.

Purely personally, since you requested my straightforward reply, I dislike that men should put on girly clothes and then comport themselves on sites like this as if they actually were girls. You're NOT. You're men who dress up as girls. Normally I am too polite to make this point clear, but frankly, personally, I find that whole thing a REALLY BIG TURNOFF.

Furthermore I think that the association of CD/TV with TS women as it occurs here serves only to afford the CD/TVs some of the credibility they so desperately want (and need.) There is no payoff for TS women; instead their association with CD/TV simply allows the tabloid Media and society at large to group them together, to write off TS women as a bunch of crossdressing men. Which is something that they are not.

It follows that if transsexual women are to do well in society they need to be seen as not being part of a group of clothes fetishists, but as women.

Now usually I'm quite happy just to ignore threads about this subject, and to avoid conversation with you. But you did insist that I deal with it.

Lets make one thing clear, as far as the general public are concerned with sites like these, the association of TS women with CD/TV's is not what would sway the publics opinion. Rather the fact that this site is predominantly porn based ......... If transitioning women are to be successful in society it is the association with the sex industry that is likely to be stumbling block to true acceptance.

The public's perception of transsexual women however is constantly changing thankfully as Big Brother was testament. When given a chance general society is starting to see the person not the label. Never, will everyone accept it but over time it will improve as with race and sexuality minorities.

It's a pity that some more close to the transgendered scene cannot find the same acceptance. I can understand when in society why Transsexual women, by in large, try and break away from the scene and hopefully with supportive friends and family that can be acheivable. I would love to know how many are truly happy.

I would also love to know how many end up going down a route they may not have followed believeing that transitioning was the way to true acceptance.

I would hate to find out where many transitioned girls end up .....

I would also hate to find out where many undecided girls end up after encountering insensitive people such as yourself who already feel intense pressure over feelings they are battling to control .......

Whilst I can understand a Transsexuals feelings towards being drawn back into a "scene" what I cannot fathom out is why you are so full of protestation, and so ready to condemn an entire label.

I fear you do protest too much .......

I don't believe that society thinks that TS women are gay, unless they are in a relationship with another women, as they do identify as women.

I would imagine their perception of you as a Tranny Chaser would be entirely different. Had you met a TS women and struck up a chat and made your move unaware that she was pre-op that would be different. However, as someone who has actively sought out this site devoted to TS women, the bulk of whom are pre-op they would class you as gay, but afraid to admit it to yourself.

Perhaps that is a label you fear, and are unwilling to accept and therefore you have accepted to an extent your attraction so long as you can justify in your own head that object of desire is a real girl.

Or perhaps I have that entirely wrong. Perhaps you are here because you feel TS women are more vulnerable and will more appreciative of your attention where you fail with real girls. The macho man who is willing to accept the fact that they were once men, the saintly protector.

Tell me how far because you avoid this a girl has to go to gain your blessing? one op? two? how long does she need to be taking hormones? How many weeks, months living as a girl full time before she can finally be seen a acceptable in your eyes?

Or perhaps she should just jump in a phone box and change in an instant .....

There is a huge spectrum in between fetish clothing wearers (which I trust you have used to try and gain a reaction) to post-op transitioned women.

Perhaps your attitude says far more about you than those you direct insult at in your oh so tolerant and restrained manner. I pity any TS girl who would end up with you, for if that is the reward for transitioning I fear it could be the deciding factor against any girl going down that route in the future.


Kirsty
xxx xxx
Now retreating back to my pen to be with my kind .........

[62des]

Flabbybody she looks nice, but I can't decide based on that angle because all I see is ass and face. I can't tell what she'd look like when in a regular pose standing up. But the face is ok though.

[suckseed]

Obviously some cd's are transitioning someday and some are just tourists. Is it throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Well on the one hand if we men say segregate them, then we risk being insensitive to the genuine CD/TG's. If we don't then we risk offending the TS women here who see cd's as some combination of demeaning to them and a threat. A classic case of damned if you do....Whatever we say, we're going to piss someone off. And you wonder why there aren't more photos of the guys here.

[62des]

Well to all those that replied to me, there are women with really small breasts. I've seen TS without breasts that I'd jump on in a second, only because they had everything else, the ass, not masculine, but most importantly, the curves of a woman.

[MacShreach]

Now retreating back to my pen to be with my kind .........

And frankly, my boy, I don't give a shit what you think. At the end of the day you're just a strange man with an unusual hobby. Kinda like stamp collecting. You come to places like this in the hopes that people will play along with your fantasy. But at the end of the day all you are is a man who dresses up as a girl....when it suits your fetish.

Cool. Glad we got that cleared up.

Bye bye now.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Well to all those that replied to me, there are women with really small breasts. I've seen TS without breasts that I'd jump on in a second, only because they had everything else, the ass, not masculine, but most importantly, the curves of a woman.


Apology accepted.


:wink:


.

[TrueBeauty TS]

At the end of the day you're just a strange man with an unusual hobby.



... says the strange man with the unusual hobby of hanging out on transsexual porn boards.




:wink:


.

[MacShreach]

At the end of the day you're just a strange man with an unusual hobby.



... says the strange man with the unusual hobby of hanging out on transsexual porn boards.




:wink:


.

Fair enough.

[Felicia Katt]

Uhuh.

Tell us, do you live full-time as a woman?
Do you consider yourself to be a woman at all times, and not merely for sexual gratification?
Are you taking any feminising hormones?
Do you intend to?
Have you had or do you intend to have surgical body modification in order to make your body more feminine?--Anything from depilation through implants to FFS and SRS?
Is it your intention to remain as a woman and live your life as a woman both in private and in public?

I may be wrong and I am prepared to give the benefit of the doubt, such as it exists, but you look like a CD to me.

It doesn't matter if ,with a bit of make-up, a man can make himself look like a beautiful woman facially. Nor does it matter what your lingerie wardrobe is like. The chips are down and the truth is told when the clothes and all the other artefacts come OFF.

I do not mean to attack CD's and TV's but the fact is that they are men who enjoy for various reasons, dressing up as women. Many are sub gay men. The men who want to have sex with them are looking for other men to have sex with. Therefore it is part of the gay scene. That simple.

Transsexual women ARE WOMEN.
uh huh

tell us. have you sucked a cock.
have you been fucked in the ass by a cock.
have you had your cock sucked by someone with a cock.
Have you fucked someone with a cock in the ass.
Have you played with a cock other than your own?
Has someone with a cock played with yours?

I may be wrong, and I am certainly able to be respectful of your self labelling, but all of those things are homosexual acts.

It doesn't matter if the person with a penis has, through surgery and hormones managed to otherwise become a beautiful woman. Nor does it matter how deep the closet you are in may be. When the chips and pants are down if you have a penis and so does your partner, the truth that is told is that you are not entirely heterosexual.

Do you see how the other shoe fits now? You are tyring to define yourself by how you feel, not what you do, and to enable your self definition by defining transsexuals by what they do, not how they feel. The actual clinical or dictionary definitions don't really support your efforts.

I think its great that you respect, and even revere beautiful transsexual women. I just wish you could do so without marginalizing, or minimizing or demonizing others who for whatever their reasons, can't or won't or didn't yet transition fully. Or those who, for whatever their reasons, can, would or do also embrace others for their inner or percieved beauty. It is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

FK

[6hungry]

What does "seperate" mean?

[Coroner]

I don´t if someone already mentioned it but I know a German TS forum where they have a seperate CD/TV section. So, give the fags what they want. :lol:

:lol:

[youcancallmeclaire]

Being picky is not my intention, but ALL humans have breasts or mammary glands. An organism simply cannot be a mammal without them, irrespective of gender.

MILLA JOVOVICH: :hitit , MOST DEFINITELY!!!

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/milla_jovovich_10_176.jpg



Ew. Stop posting pictures of men.

[MacShreach]

tell us. have you sucked a cock.
have you been fucked in the ass by a cock.
have you had your cock sucked by someone with a cock.
Have you fucked someone with a cock in the ass.
Have you played with a cock other than your own?
Has someone with a cock played with yours?

<snip>

I may be wrong, and I am certainly able to be respectful of your self labelling, but all of those things are homosexual acts.

FK

So as far as you are concerned, transsexual women are just other men? Hmm? Because that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

And that is very offensive and disrespectful to TS women.

Frankly, I've had enough of this cock-in-frock bullshit. You hide behind people are actually WOMEN but who were born with male genitals to give yourselves some completely spurious credibility. You can flounce around as much as you like. You are MEN IN FROCKS, and that's it.

You can come the bullshit "respect this, respect that," crap as much as you like, but you have NO respect for women otherwise you would not caricature them, and even less for TS women-- some of whom are amongst the funniest, most charming women I have ever met. You're a GUY. Try to remember this.

And I for one am not taken in by your semantical game-playing. Deal with the core issue: you are a MAN WHO PRETENDS TO BE A WOMAN, and the men here who fancy you are GAY. I have nothing more to say to you.

Other than maybe, "Nice frock, Chuck."


End of conversation.

[MacShreach]

Ew. Stop posting pictures of men.

Okay. Now that was funny.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MacShreach]

I don´t if someone already mentioned it but I know a German TS forum where they have a seperate CD/TV section. So, give the fags what they want. :lol:

:lol:

After the last couple of exchanges I am beginning to agree.

How many ways can they think of to deny what is obvious to everyone else?

[Felicia Katt]

So as far as you are concerned, transsexual women are just other men? Hmm? Because that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

And that is very offensive and disrespectful to TS women.

Frankly, I've had enough of this cock-in-frock bullshit. You hide behind people are actually WOMEN but who were born with male genitals to give yourselves some completely spurious credibility. You can flounce around as much as you like. You are MEN IN FROCKS, and that's it.

You can come the bullshit "respect this, respect that," crap as much as you like, but you have NO respect for women otherwise you would not caricature them, and even less for TS women-- some of whom are amongst the funniest, most charming women I have ever met. You're a GUY. Try to remember this.

And I for one am not taken in by your semantical game-playing. Deal with the core issue: you are a MAN WHO PRETENDS TO BE A WOMAN, and the men here who fancy you are GAY. I have nothing more to say to you.

Other than maybe, "Nice frock, Chuck."


End of conversation.
no, sweetie, because I have the utmost of respect for, and I like to think of, transsexuals, and almost everyone in this community, I was very careful not to say that. I said if you have a penis and so does your sexual partner, that is, by definition, a homosexual act. Because for human beings, the primary sexual characteristic is the genitals. Everything else, breasts, hair, shape and size, are all secondary sexual characteristics and do not define, or exclude a person as one sex or the other. The semantical game playing is being done by you. I never said you were gay, I never siad they were not women. But in your zeal to carve out an exception for yourself, you somehow ignore that homo=same and penis and penis is the same that counts at the core of things. No matter how you may feel.

Being transsexual is not about action. Every definition includes those who do, and those who would desire to do. All those bright charming women you exalt were every bit as much of a woman, inside, before they transitiioned. No amount of surgery or hormones can change the inner person, and thats where gender is truly found and defined. My gender is mine, and not defined or restricted by you.

As far as my request for simple respect, I guess I should have known better. But I have this foolish, largely unsupported belief that if you treat others with respect, it will be reciprocated. Not only did that not happen, but you escalated it, and you tried to make what was only about what you have said into something somehow against other transsexuals. Talk about hiding behind others to gain spurious credibility!! And if that were not bad enough, you went out of your way to make it personaly insultingl and offensive. So all I can say now is

Frock you.

and now this conversation is over.

FK

[MrsKellyPierce]

This thread is disgusting the peoples thoughts and actions in it.

Felicia is a regular of this board.

A nice lady.

A voice of reason.

A funny girl.

And has been here BEFORE A LOT OF YOU.

UGH

[Night Rider]

I said if you have a penis and so does your sexual partner, that is, by definition, a homosexual act. and now this conversation is over.

You're right and by definition cross dressers are men.

[MacShreach]

I said if you have a penis and so does your sexual partner, that is, by definition, a homosexual act.

Yes dearie, you did. Since the word "homosexual" means "sex between persons of the same sex," you are by inference saying that, since you regard sex between pre-op TS women (who still have a penis) and men as homosexual, then the two partners are, according to you, OF THE SAME GENDER. So you are INDEED saying that pre-op TS women are just men.

Q.E.D. and out of your own mouth too. So much for all those ideas of gender being psychological, to you TS women are just better looking crossdressers.

So guys, let's just remember, as far as Felicia is concerned, all pre-op TS women are men, and anyone who has sex with them is a poof.

Thank you for establishing your point of view, Chuck.

[Night Rider]

Rule No. 1 of HA - Never argue with a Tgirl (they're apparently always right)

Rule No. 2 of HA - Never call a cross dresser a man (even though they are)

Rule No. 3 of HA - Never speak your mind unless you think everyone is going to agree

Rule No. 4 of HA - Never take a Tgirls name in vain

Rule No. 5 of HA - Tread on egg shells around Tgirls

Rule No. 6 of HA - Do NOT disagree with a Tgirl

[MacShreach]

Rule No. 6 of HA - Do NOT disagree with a Tgirl

Sure but cross-dressers don't count 'cos they're men........

[Night Rider]

Rule No. 6 of HA - Do NOT disagree with a Tgirl

Sure but cross-dressers don't count 'cos they're men........

exactly.

They're the rules that exist in the minds of the girls. One minute they want you to treat them as women, then the next they're calling you a homo for engaging in sex with them.

It amuses me how much they contradict themselves.

[TrueBeauty TS]

I said if you have a penis and so does your sexual partner, that is, by definition, a homosexual act.

Yes dearie, you did. Since the word "homosexual" means "sex between persons of the same sex," you are by inference saying that, since you regard sex between pre-op TS women (who still have a penis) and men as homosexual, then the two partners are, according to you, OF THE SAME GENDER. So you are INDEED saying that pre-op TS women are just men.

Q.E.D. and out of your own mouth too. So much for all those ideas of gender being psychological, to you TS women are just better looking crossdressers.

So guys, let's just remember, as far as Felicia is concerned, all pre-op TS women are men, and anyone who has sex with them is a poof.

Thank you for establishing your point of view, Chuck.


You know what? You're an asshole for attacking HER personally.

Can't you argue using facts instead of personal insults?



.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Rule No. 1 of HA - Never argue with a Tgirl (they're apparently always right)

Rule No. 2 of HA - Never call a cross dresser a man (even though they are)

Rule No. 3 of HA - Never speak your mind unless you think everyone is going to agree

Rule No. 4 of HA - Never take a Tgirls name in vain

Rule No. 5 of HA - Tread on egg shells around Tgirls

Rule No. 6 of HA - Do NOT disagree with a Tgirl



And fuck you too.


Oh, boo-hoo!!!! You big, strong man!!! All those Tgirls are ganging up on you!!!



Grow up, idiot.


.

[Coroner]

I don´t if someone already mentioned it but I know a German TS forum where they have a seperate CD/TV section. So, give the fags what they want. :lol:

:lol:

After the last couple of exchanges I am beginning to agree.

How many ways can they think of to deny what is obvious to everyone else?

I don´t understand it myself. A CD is a man dammit. Just because he puts a dress on and uses some lipstick, it doesn´t change him into a full-time woman. A CD doesn´t want to be a woman. I think it´s the same with a TV unless it´s a TS that can´t pay the transformation and is, because the circumstances, forced to look like a TV.
And a Club Kid is just a feminine looking boy. It´s a boy, hello! If some guys here are attracted to CD´s and Club Kids, they´re simply bisexual or even gay. So, why the conversations? This is a thread of self-denial.

[trish]

The poll questions are obviously designed to filter out the voices of those who think there’s room in this vast general forum for a handful of threads featuring transvestites, cross-dress, club kids etc. I think it’s rather amusing at how the poll has resoundingly backfired. As of my writing this there are 42 out of 72 in favor of keeping those threads just where they are…in the general forum.

Make no mistake. This ugly little thread is not about finding a better way to organize HA. It’s about homophobia pure and simple. I’m not calling anyone gay, or latently gay or any other name. I’m just saying this thread reeks with loathing for gays and fear of gays. People who aren’t gay are called fags. People who are gay are derided and marginalized. And nobody who is gay dare admit it. There are so many men here who are so fearful of appearing gay that they desperately stumble over each other clamoring to clarify over and over again that they think fags are shit and that they personally certainly aren’t fags.

Some would be segregationists are outright homophobes and know it; e.g.
… give the fags what they want.

Some suspect they might be homophobes;
Good question Otto, if I gave my real opinion I would probably just be accused of being Homophobic

Some just have no clue;
I see Transsexuals advanced in their transition as women. Most of them live as women 24/7. People who can't see the difference or think that there is much commonality, are probably just obsessed with penises.

You don’t see many of the girls here joining you in this little exercise. We know, as Kelly intimated, that gender is between the ears. We’ve experienced the doubts and stages of transition. Some of you seem to subscribe to “inhabiting spirit” model of sexuality. Somehow, the gods just put the wrong spirit into the wrong body. That true transsexuals were girls with little tiny penises the moment they were born. And of course you love the spirit, not the body. In some cases it may be like that. But for most of us, finding our sexuality was a struggle of discovery and creation. Psychologically speaking there is a broad continuum of genders and I do not wish to leave out or segregate any of them here at Hung Angels. It would be stupid to leave out the extremes (men and women). It seems to me even more idiotic to leave out the middle.

[Night Rider]

Rule No. 1 of HA - Never argue with a Tgirl (they're apparently always right)

Rule No. 2 of HA - Never call a cross dresser a man (even though they are)

Rule No. 3 of HA - Never speak your mind unless you think everyone is going to agree

Rule No. 4 of HA - Never take a Tgirls name in vain

Rule No. 5 of HA - Tread on egg shells around Tgirls

Rule No. 6 of HA - Do NOT disagree with a Tgirl



And fuck you too.


Oh, boo-hoo!!!! You big, strong man!!! All those Tgirls are ganging up on you!!!



Grow up, idiot.


.

Fuck me too? When did I say fuck you?

You're amking it out like I'm hating on Tgirls in general, when all I'm pointing out is that there are a lot of hypocrites here. Did you ever say anything to the girls here that call Tgirls men, never mind cross dressers? No I don't think you do. Don't think that I'm worried about Tgirls "ganging up on me" because to be honest, I couldn't give a fuck. There are that many brown noses here that worship you that you now think that you can treat us how you like as if you're superior. And when someone like me doesn't let you away with it, then it's a big shock to your overly inflated ego. I'm sorry, but we all know that's the truth.

If you're going to cry about us calling cross dressers men, when they clearly are, then you better stick to your beliefs (and not only when it suits you)

So you grow up and get a firm fucking grip of reality.

[Night Rider]

double post

[Coroner]

The poll questions are obviously designed to filter out the voices of those who think there’s room in this vast general forum for a handful of threads featuring transvestites, cross-dress, club kids etc. I think it’s rather amusing at how the poll has resoundingly backfired. As of my writing this there are 42 out of 72 in favor of keeping those threads just where they are…in the general forum.

Make no mistake. This ugly little thread is not about finding a better way to organize HA. It’s about homophobia pure and simple. I’m not calling anyone gay, or latently gay or any other name. I’m just saying this thread reeks with loathing for gays and fear of gays. People who aren’t gay are called fags. People who are gay are derided and marginalized. And nobody who is gay dare admit it. There are so many of the men here so fearful of appearing gay that they desperately stumble over each other clamoring to clarify over and over again that they think fags are shit and that they personally certainly aren’t fags.

Some would be segregationists are outright homophobes and know it; e.g.
… give the fags what they want.

Some suspect they might be homophobes;
Good question Otto, if I gave my real opinion I would probably just be accused of being Homophobic

Some just have no clue;
I see Transsexuals advanced in their transition as women. Most of them live as women 24/7. People who can't see the difference or think that there is much commonality, are probably just obsessed with penises.

You don’t see many of the girls here joining you in this little exercise. We know, as Kelly intimated, that gender is between the ears. We’ve experienced the doubts and stages of transition. Some of you seem to subscribed to “inhabiting spirit” model of sexuality. Somehow, the gods just put the wrong spirit into the wrong body. That true transsexuals were girls with little tiny penises the moment they were born. And of course you love the spirit, not the body. In some cases it may be like that. But for most of us, finding our sexuality was a struggle of discovery and creation. Psychologically speaking there is a broad continuum of genders and I do not wish to leave out or segregate any of them here at Hung Angels. It would be stupid to leave out the extremes (men and women). It seems to me even more idiotic to leave out the middle.

You can´t call me homophobic for saying a fact. The best idea is to get out of this ridiculous thread.

[MacShreach]

.

Can't you argue using facts



.

I did.

So you're another TV/CD masquerading as a TS, or you're a TS who doesn't mind being called a man by men who dress in girly clothes. Either way you are deeply confused.

The real world is over here. Feel free to join any time you like, till then STFU.

[MacShreach]

I don´t understand it myself. A CD is a man dammit. Just because he puts a dress on and uses some lipstick, it doesn´t change him into a full-time woman. A CD doesn´t want to be a woman. I think it´s the same with a TV unless it´s a TS that can´t pay the transformation and is, because the circumstances, forced to look like a TV.
And a Club Kid is just a feminine looking boy. It´s a boy, hello! If some guys here are attracted to CD´s and Club Kids, they´re simply bisexual or even gay. So, why the conversations? This is a thread of self-denial.

All absolutely true except the thread has now turned into one of blatant self-promotion by a bunch of guys kitted out in girly clothes.

CD/TV's are not transsexual. They are MEN. They are not on some voyage of transition or self-discovery, they're quite happy dressing up in girly clothes. Fine. I have no issue with that whatever, and apart from one joke I have consistently argued that they stay here-- it's easy enough to ignore them. I even voted that way.

But they are NOT TRANSSEXUAL, and that's that. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just a fact. There is a world of difference between someone who goes through the anguish and self-examination that any TS must, with all the implications that will have for her life, and a guy who puts on frocks for thrills, for fuxake, which is what CD/TVs ARE.

I'm not saying they're not human, and I'm not saying I don't want them here. I AM saying I find it offensive that they can throw on their glad-rags and a bit of makeup and then demand to be treated as if they were the same as transsexual women. They're not.

[Night Rider]

I said if you have a penis and so does your sexual partner, that is, by definition, a homosexual act. and now this conversation is over.

You're right and by definition cross dressers are men.

By the way, I'm not homophobic and cross dressers can dress up like Santa for all I care, but they're men. That's were the term cross dressing comes from..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

[trish]

By the way, I'm not homophobic and cross dressers can dress up like Santa for all I care, but they're men. That's were the term cross dressing comes from..

that's just plain wrong. there's nothing in even the literal interpretation of cross-dresser that allows one to conclude the gender of every cross dresser is male.

[Night Rider]

By the way, I'm not homophobic and cross dressers can dress up like Santa for all I care, but they're men. That's were the term cross dressing comes from..

that's just plain wrong. there's nothing in even the literal interpretation of cross-dresser that allows one to conclude the gender of every cross dresser is male.

Of course they're men. That's a fact whether you or I like it or not. If a man "cross" dresses, he'll be wearing womens cloths, and CDs wear womens cloths. I don't want to get in an argument with you trish, because you're one of the grounded (head not up your own ass) Tgirls.

[MacShreach]

Of course they're men. That's a fact whether you or I like it or not. If a man "cross" dresses, he'll be wearing womens cloths, and CDs wear womens cloths. I don't want to get in an argument with you trish, because you're one of the grounded (head not up your own ass) Tgirls.

No, Trish has you there, you do get cross-dressing women...The French author Georges Sand was one such and I guess there are legions of bull dykes out there doing it......

I wonder if they try to let on that they're really FTM transsexuals but don't quite have the balls....? :lol: :lol:

[trish]

and if a woman dresses in a man's clothes she's a cross-dresser too. you guy's are sooo blinded by your fear of fags that you can't even see the consequences of the literal interpretation you wish to push onto the rest of us. the fact that half the population would include transsexuals among cross-dressers just illustrates how elastic it's use really is.

[Night Rider]

No, Trish has you there, you do get cross-dressing women...

I know there are cross dressing women, but I thought trish was arguing that cross dressers in female clothes aren't male, which would contradict the term cross dresser.

[trish]

thanks MacShreach

[MacShreach]

thanks MacShreach

Well, thank you for at least feeding a line I could use to get some humour into an otherwise really quite unpleasant thread...I said pages back this topic always ends up with those yelling "How dare you presume to decide" (usually followed by "you faggot") on one side and those, and I have been one before, who say "TS women deserve the credit for the commitment they have made and the hardship they have suffered," on the other. It has nothing to do with how I perceive my own sexuality.

In one of your earlier statements you observed




the fact that half the population would include transsexuals among cross-dressers just illustrates how elastic it's use really is

and to go back to a point I made before, I agree, but I don't think that helps TS women at all. In fact I think it is a real problem that affects TS women badly, if only because people who might accept an individual TS as a woman, find it much more difficult to deal with CD/TVs who, frankly, are too easily identified as male fetishists. Therefore the association is at best of more benefit to the CD/TVs than the TS women. (IMO, and I tread carefully here because I am not a TS woman and don't wish to be presumptuous.) You have to fight your own fights, I can only sympathise.

[trish]

i appreciate your post MacShreach. if it's at all true that by mere association i can use my "status" as a transsexual to help raise that of cross-dressers, i'm happy to pay the small price of having my own "status" lowered a bit. i'm not at all sure it works that way...and of course i can only speak for myself, not the other women of this board. i'm quite sure that there is no rational sense in which either class (TGs, TVs, CDs etc) should be regarded as superior to another and i feel that you are a reasonable enough person to agree with that. all of us here are experimenting in various ways with the issues of gender. just by coming here and appreciating pics of us you too are experimenting with your perceptions of gender. i think just being here indicates some willingness to stretch the boundaries. so you see, with me, keeping these threads in the general forum is a matter of solidarity. we're all sisters here, except those of you who are brothers. let's keep our hearts open. (by the way, if this sounds out of character for me...i had a little too much wine at lunch).

[TrueBeauty TS]

Fuck me too? When did I say fuck you?



You didn't. I'm saying that to YOU. Please keep up. If this is going too fast for you, then move aside.




Don't think that I'm worried about Tgirls "ganging up on me" because to be honest, I couldn't give a fuck.


It's obvious you do.





If you're going to cry about us calling cross dressers men, when they clearly are, then you better stick to your beliefs (and not only when it suits you)

When did I change my beliefs? Please quote me where I said that.




So you grow up and get a firm fucking grip of reality.


Wow..... now that was a real grown up response. And please, you should know what reality is before you preach it to others.



.

[Night Rider]

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:




You didn't. I'm saying that to YOU. Please keep up. If this is going too fast for you, then move aside.

You said fuck you too, as if I was talking to you personally...I didn't even quote you



It's obvious you do.


Maybe it's all just in your mind, the way you believe cross dressers are female. Trust me, if I cared, I'd be another ass kiss statistic. God forbid a male disagree with a TS.



When did I change my beliefs? Please quote me where I said that.

That's the problem, there are no quotes. When do you bitch at another Tgirl when they call a TS/CD a man? Please provide the quotes.



Wow..... now that was a real grown up response. And please, you should know what reality is before you preach it to others.

Well I'm only trying to help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality



.[/quote]

[MacShreach]

i appreciate your post MacShreach. if it's at all true that by mere association i can use my "status" as a transsexual to help raise that of cross-dressers, i'm happy to pay the small price of having my own "status" lowered a bit. i'm not at all sure it works that way...and of course i can only speak for myself, not the other women of this board. i'm quite sure that there is no rational sense in which either class (TGs, TVs, CDs etc) should be regarded as superior to another and i feel that you are a reasonable enough person to agree with that. all of us here are experimenting in various ways with the issues of gender. just by coming here and appreciating pics of us you too are experimenting with your perceptions of gender. i think just being here indicates some willingness to stretch the boundaries. so you see, with me, keeping these threads in the general forum is a matter of solidarity. we're all sisters here, except those of you who are brothers. let's keep our hearts open. (by the way, if this sounds out of character for me...i had a little too much wine at lunch).

Out of character? No, I don't really think so. You want to see peace and make sure everyone in the house is treated fairly, because women are like that. And as to whether I am reasonable or not...I don't know. I can be pretty curmudgeonly. (There is a word for it in Scots, "thrawn," and I could tell you a very funny story about that...I will, some time.) I do know that I have absolutely no desire or intention to fall out with you, though, so I am going to let this particular dog lie. You take care, and I hope the lunch was good!

[TrueBeauty TS]

.

Can't you argue using facts



.

I did.





No, you didn't. You are confusing fact with opinion. Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it a fact.




So you're another TV/CD masquerading as a TS, or you're a TS who doesn't mind being called a man by men who dress in girly clothes. Either way you are deeply confused.




Unfortunately for you, my gender identity is not based on your internet psychoanalysis of me. But thanks for trying anyway.


YOU on the other hand are easy to read: a dim-witted, self-loathing, homophobic bully who's only contribution you make to the transgender world is the money you pay TS escorts to fulfill your fantasy of being intimate with a another penis that is not your own.


So now, pretty please, with pink powdered sugar on top..... STFU.


.

[TrueBeauty TS]

When did I change my beliefs? Please quote me where I said that.

That's the problem, there are no quotes. When do you bitch at another Tgirl when they call a TS/CD a man? Please provide the quotes.


Uh.... no. It doesn't work like that. When you make a claim about a certain statement I made, and I ask for proof, YOU are supposed to provide the quoted statement, not me.


:roll:



.

[Night Rider]

When did I change my beliefs? Please quote me where I said that.

That's the problem, there are no quotes. When do you bitch at another Tgirl when they call a TS/CD a man? Please provide the quotes.


Uh.... no. It doesn't work like that. When you make a claim about a certain statement I made, and I ask for proof, YOU are supposed to provide the quoted statement, not me.


:roll:



.

Uh.....no. It does work like that, because all I said was if you're going to bitch at the men, then you'd better stick to your beliefs. I didn't say you've been quoted as changing them, I said stick to them. Do you need an HA personal assistant?

But are you going to dodge the question again, can you provide us with quotes of you whinning to the other girls, or is this another case of double standards?

Go ahead think of another excuse.

[Night Rider]

This is what the argument started over, can you not see I was just having a bit of a joke with MacShreach? Then you come in with this post. Get a grip TB, I think you're alright, but it's clear the slightest thing I do pisses you off. If you don't like me then why the fuck quote me? Do you need anger management?



Rule No. 1 of HA - Never argue with a Tgirl (they're apparently always right)

Rule No. 2 of HA - Never call a cross dresser a man (even though they are)

Rule No. 3 of HA - Never speak your mind unless you think everyone is going to agree

Rule No. 4 of HA - Never take a Tgirls name in vain

Rule No. 5 of HA - Tread on egg shells around Tgirls

Rule No. 6 of HA - Do NOT disagree with a Tgirl



And fuck you too.


Oh, boo-hoo!!!! You big, strong man!!! All those Tgirls are ganging up on you!!!



Grow up, idiot.


.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Uh.....no. It does work like that, because all I said was if you're going to bitch at the men, then you'd better stick to your beliefs. I didn't say you've been quoted as changing them, I said stick to them. Do you need an HA personal assistant?



Wtf? So...? You're whole arguement is to tell me to stick to my beliefs and not change them..... even though I've been sticking to my beliefs and not changing them. But just in case I don't, at some point, somewhere, you're going to call me on it ahead of time... in case that ever happens, sometime, in the future. In case I change them. Um.... yeah.... ok.... :?





But are you going to dodge the question again, can you provide us with quotes of you whinning to the other girls, or is this another case of double standards?


You misunderstand something. Just because I, or anyone else, disagrees with you, that doesn't make it a double standard.

It just means I disagree with you, not with everyone.


.

[MrsKellyPierce]

What about genetic females that perform as Drag Queens? What do you consider them?

[Night Rider]

How's that my whole argument? That was just one sentence I wrote and you keep bringing it up. What I'm saying is (again), how come you don't comment when "one of several" tgirls calls a TS/CD a man? And don't give me that "it's just like a black person calling another black person N" bullshit.

If I disagree with someone, I don't care what gender they are, I'll say what needs to be said. I'll not critisise a TS for something and then ignore several males doing the same thing. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[MrsKellyPierce]

This whole thread is to prove whose the straightest on the board. GET THE FUCK OVER IT BITCH, AND GET ON YOUR KNEES ALREADY!

[Night Rider]

This whole thread is to prove whose the straightest on the board. GET THE FUCK OVER IT BITCH, AND GET ON YOUR KNEES ALREADY!

lol, speak when you're spoken to, BITCH

[MrsKellyPierce]

I hope you all get tricked by a crossdresser and she fucks you in the ass.

[Night Rider]

Hairy arms and stubble can't fool me.....also when they've got a voice like Darth Vador it's usually a give away..

[MrsKellyPierce]

Hairy arms and stubble can't fool me.....also when they've got a voice like Darth Vador it's usually a give away.. Not all transsexuals look like that dear :) and what do you call a woman that performs as a drag queen?

[Night Rider]

Hairy arms and stubble can't fool me.....also when they've got a voice like Darth Vador it's usually a give away.. Not all transsexuals look like that dear :) and what do you call a woman that performs as a drag queen?

You said CD not transsexual, and don't call me dear, you're not my mother lol

[TrueBeauty TS]

Now my question for the ladies. And, please note, that many of us really do want to read your responses. I predict they will be varied.



I predict they will be varied as well. If you asked the guys, "are you 100% straight, and if not, what percentage are you?" I'm sure you would get many varied answers as well. After all, we are all individuals with differences of opinion and experiences.




1) Do you equate mtf crossdressers/tvs with transgendered women?

That is a difficult question. IMO, just the term "transgender" means an umbrella term that includes all gender variations. I do think both CDs and TSs deserve respect for who they are.



2) Why?


See above



3) Trish wrote that all the cds/tvs and tgs are sisters. Do other tgs feel that way? Why?

I don't know about other TGs, but I feel that way. Although we may have different issues on certain things, I feel we are linked by issues of gender, acceptance, respect and understanding among other things.


(And I hope I got all the quote thingys correct!!!)


.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Hairy arms and stubble can't fool me.....also when they've got a voice like Darth Vador it's usually a give away.. Not all transsexuals look like that dear :) and what do you call a woman that performs as a drag queen?

You said CD not transsexual, and don't call me dear, you're not my mother lol Oh I am sorry I always feel like I'm talking to child when I speak to you. Oh and here is a crossdresser for you? Angelique is beautiful and more so in person.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Not all crossdressers look like that dear Smile and what do you call a woman that performs as a drag queen?

:::::Slaps Kelly on the rear::::::: CDs are men baby, understand? 8)

[Night Rider]

Oh I am sorry I always feel like I'm talking to child when I speak to you.

That made me LOL

What's your point with the cross dressers? I'm not attracted to men, end of story. I'm attracted to beauty and femininity (bla bla bla) and that's more than skin deep. They're men [b]dear.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Oh I am sorry I always feel like I'm talking to child when I speak to you.

That made me LOL

What's your point with the cross dressers? I'm not attracted to men, end of story. I'm attracted to beauty and femininity (bla bla bla) and that's more than skin deep. They're men [b]dear. I was just correcting you that not all crossdressers are big hairy men in wigs.

[trish]

i've already said enough for now, so i'll let others reply to your questions, braveman. but you would've done better to quote me, rather than paraphrase me. some cd's are my sisters and some are my brothers. i'm pretty much happy to let each of them characterize their own gender.

[Night Rider]

I was just correcting you that not all crossdressers are big hairy men in wigs.

When did I say all of them were? I could spot a cross dresser a mile off, and I'm not lying. I'm only attracted to women (TS & GG)

[Night Rider]

I edited my last post, I meant spot, not stop

[Night Rider]

I edited my last post, I meant spot, not stop

I'll bet you couldn't spot this one....

We all know that's a GG, M77 :roll:

[MrsKellyPierce]

I was just correcting you that not all crossdressers are big hairy men in wigs.

When did I say all of them were? I could spot a cross dresser a mile off, and I'm not lying. I'm only attracted to women (TS & GG) Oh could you? So Angelique looks like a crossdresser to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZVA9jcPvHY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv7ukfUPuUs

[Night Rider]

I was just correcting you that not all crossdressers are big hairy men in wigs.

When did I say all of them were? I could spot a cross dresser a mile off, and I'm not lying. I'm only attracted to women (TS & GG) Oh could you? So Angelique looks like a crossdresser to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZVA9jcPvHY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv7ukfUPuUs

I didn't say the looked like CDs, I said I could tell.

Next question please.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I was just correcting you that not all crossdressers are big hairy men in wigs.

When did I say all of them were? I could spot a cross dresser a mile off, and I'm not lying. I'm only attracted to women (TS & GG) Oh could you? So Angelique looks like a crossdresser to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZVA9jcPvHY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv7ukfUPuUs

I didn't say the looked like CDs, I said I could tell.

Next question please. But Angelique just dresses for shows and pageants? Angelique lives as a man, dates as a man, etc.

[Night Rider]

But Angelique just dresses for shows and pageants? Angelique lives as a man, dates as a man, etc.

And I can tell, there are some men that look like women that don't cross dress.

[Legend]

Where is the fourth option that states i don't give a crap,seriously its not that big of a deal.

[MrsKellyPierce]

But Angelique just dresses for shows and pageants? Angelique lives as a man, dates as a man, etc.

And I can tell, there are some men that look like women that don't cross dress. yawn

[Night Rider]

But Angelique just dresses for shows and pageants? Angelique lives as a man, dates as a man, etc.

And I can tell, there are some men that look like women that don't cross dress. yawn

Yeah, yawn when you're wrong. :P

[MrsKellyPierce]

But Angelique just dresses for shows and pageants? Angelique lives as a man, dates as a man, etc.

And I can tell, there are some men that look like women that don't cross dress. yawn

Yeah, yawn when you're wrong. :P NO you lie you could not tell the difference with Angelique Ali

[Night Rider]

NO you lie you could not tell the difference with Angelique Ali

You make me laugh Miss Shore, of course I could tell

...I've never told a lie in me life :mrgreen:

[trish]

i propose a test. we get a man dressed as a woman, and a transsexual. each get to fuck Night Rider in the ass while he's blindfolded. That should be sufficient contact for his spidey senses to be able to kick in and distinguish which was which :)

[MrsKellyPierce]

lol Trish

[trish]

to get reliable statistics we should do the test several times.

[Night Rider]

i propose a test. we get a man dressed as a woman, and a transsexual. each get to fuck Night Rider in the ass while he's blindfolded. That should be sufficient contact for his spidey senses to be able to kick in and distinguish which was which :)

Nothing ever goes into my ass, apart from the odd bit of boxer fluff lol

I'm telling you, I know the difference Trish, why is that so hard to believe?

[MrsKellyPierce]

OK, the man who performs as Angelique looks and sounds like a woman. I'll admit I could not tell. So what is the point you are trying to make? Not all mtf crossdressers are going to look like linebackers in dresses, I think most of us understand that.




I was just correcting you that not all crossdressers are big hairy men in wigs.

When did I say all of them were? I could spot a cross dresser a mile off, and I'm not lying. I'm only attracted to women (TS & GG) Oh could you? So Angelique looks like a crossdresser to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZVA9jcPvHY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv7ukfUPuUs My point is the generalization and discrimination.

[Night Rider]

to get reliable statistics we should do the test several times.

..and I suppose you want to be the TS :king

[Night Rider]

My point is the generalization and discrimination.

How is it discrimination? I told you not to post and drink at the same time.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Did you not read the thread topic?

Or the generalization made about Felicia?

[Night Rider]

Did you not read the thread topic?

But you were talking to me about cross dressers, apparentely looking like women..

[bilko]

we should all be one happy family
come on group hug :).

[MrsKellyPierce]

Did you not read the thread topic?

But you were talking to me about cross dressers, apparentely looking like women.. No you fool, I was saying you are generalizing. You said that you could tell the difference because they will be hairy and all that jazz. So I was trying to prove your generalization wrong.

[Night Rider]

Did you not read the thread topic?

But you were talking to me about cross dressers, apparentely looking like women.. No you fool, I was saying you are generalizing. You said that you could tell the difference because they will be hairy and all that jazz. So I was trying to prove your generalization wrong.

I never denied generalizing.

You said discrimination too, but I'll let you off. Don't call me a fool, bitch :!:

[MrsKellyPierce]

Thats not that point of the poll the poll was to make a seperate forum for them. And then a REGULAR was discriminated and disrespected in the process of this stupid thread.


You don't like being called gay?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Did you not read the thread topic?

But you were talking to me about cross dressers, apparentely looking like women.. No you fool, I was saying you are generalizing. You said that you could tell the difference because they will be hairy and all that jazz. So I was trying to prove your generalization wrong.

I never denied generalizing.

You said discrimination too, but I'll let you off. Don't call me a fool, bitch :!: What way did you vote on the poll?

[trish]

Saying that CDs are different from TGs is differentiating not discriminating against or for oen group.

not all CDs are different from TGs. e.g. some are transitioning, or in the process of discovering and inventing their sexuality. some are just dressing for a lark. but to segregate them to another forum is a way of just getting them out of way so you don't have to think about them. that's discrimination. there are all different kind of topics on the general forum that don't cause anyone to blink an eye. why are you guys soooo disturbed by just this one?

[Night Rider]

Thats not that point of the poll the poll was to make a seperate forum for them. And then a REGULAR was discriminated and disrespected in the process of this stupid thread.


You don't like being called gay?

Not by me.

Get your facts right woman, I only generalized in a joking way. And if you'd read the whole thread, I admitted that I don't care if there are club kid/CD threads in general, as long as there are no more.

[peggygee]

I'd like to hear your thoughts....

1) Do you equate mtf crossdressers/tvs with transgendered women?

2) Why?

3) Trish wrote that all the cds/tvs and tgs are sisters. Do you agree or disagree??

4) Why?


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/Voting_Woman.gif

I can not cast my vote for full support of CDs and TVs as they have not
always been supportive of our interests, whether legally, politically, or
socially.

Too often groups like Virginia Prince's Beaumont Society, FPE, Tri-Sigma and the
like, treated transsexuals with great disdain, barring them from membership. (http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/2000/king20.htm)

While technically according to the APA, transsexuals, and cross
dressers, or transvestites fall under the transgender umbrella, the vast
majority of cross dressers are heterosexual males who dress for fetish
reasons (http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html)

There are transsexual women who are in the early stages of their
transition, who may have to cross dress for various reasons.

I would say that these women are our Sisters.

However I do not feel that threads pertainng to transvestites should be
ghettoized.

For those, and other threads of their ilk that hold no interest for me, I
vote with my feet, and keep it moving.

[bilko]

I'm not into c/d or t/v,so i dont click on the thread.
no need for a separate forum.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I'm not into c/d or t/v,so i dont click on the thread.
no need for a separate forum. common sense lol it's a virtue

[trish]

message deleted...here's a group hug instead

:grouphug

to see what i really wrote see

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=395356&highlight=#395356

[MacShreach]

Nice night for a walk. See the dog's up and about, so....

The Angelique thing is a complete red herring, he's a guy, who cares who he fools, he's still a guy. He's young, he's got good bones, any decent make-up artist could make him look like a girl, and any competent photographer could clinch the deal. But it's all smoke and mirrors. It's like a fake banknote--looks just like the real thing but is worth fuck all. However his introduction points to the core issues, which are:

"Do you believe that TS women are women and not just men in drag?"

and

"Do you believe CD/TVs are men who dress up in women's clothes?"

Personally I believe the answer is obviously, self-evidently "yes" to both, and that completely settles the argument-- they are not the same. And that's it. We have spent I don't know how many pages arguing about something that no-one has put up one convincing argument to counter--that CD/TVs are men, and transsexual women are women.

As far as I can see the only people who have a problem with that are the CD/TVs like TrueBeauty"TS" (who is about as transsexual as my left armpit) and the reason they have a problem with it is that they deeply, bitterly resent that genuinely TS women get higher status, so they think, than they do. It must be awful for them when they see a man they fancy and he takes one look at the wig, screams "AAAAARGH, you're a MAN!" and flees the building, so it's easy to see how some of them end up as twisted as they are.

I mean if it was as simple as one CD/TV had it, that everyone with a penis is a man, then there's no point, we might as well all pack up and go home, because--well I don't know about some of the guys but for many, including me, that's it, end of story, no further interest, don't call us, we'll call you (not.) I like women; I'll have no trouble spending the rest of my days in their company and never look at another TS, if all they are is just more gay men.

It's the fact that TS women ARE WOMEN that is interesting and intriguing, and anyone that is interesting, intriguing and physically beautiful is attractive. It's those feminine curves, those soft breasts, those soft feminine bodies with female subcutaneous fat, that lovely soft female skin that make women attractive, not the clothes or the make-up or the hair. That's like a good wax and polish--makes a great car look better, waste of time on a jalopy, 'cos who cares anyway?

CD/TVs are just men. It doesn't matter how convincing they are, sooner or later that wig will slip or the socks will fall out of his bra and that's it, forget it, and go buy your own drinks, Chuck.

Get used to it boys, you are not fooling anyone at all. You're men.

I've always said live and let live, have them here, call them "she" and "her" but I gotta tell you the histrionics of TruePoofterCD have gone a long way to changing my mind. Maybe it's time we started being honest, call a spade a spade and a man a man.

Which is what CD/TVs are.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Do you realize that Felicia is leaning towards transexualism? Do you realize Macshreach there is sometimes more to it than what you put in a pretty little box. I have always liked you, but you disgust me on this topic.

[Night Rider]

I'll refer back to my phrase of the week "double standards" :lol:

[MacShreach]

Virginia Prince's Beaumont Society, FPE, Tri-Sigma and the
like, treated transsexuals with great disdain, barring them from membership. (http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/2000/king20.htm)

While technically according to the APA, transsexuals, and cross
dressers, or transvestites fall under the transgender umbrella, the vast
majority of cross dressers are heterosexual males who dress for fetish
reasons (http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html)


A timeous and acute observation, Peggy. In my opinion as a man the association of transsexual women with CD/TV men can only damage the long-term political aims of TS women. It's high time these definitions were corrected and brought up to date, so that the public perception of TS women can be improved. Every time a tabloid journalist tells the lame old lie, that TS women are just more men in drag and so can be pilloried, slandered and vilified, TS women are knocked down. And journalists do this every day.

I'm not entirely convinced that a TS at the beginning of her transition is cross-dressing--was she not rather cross-dressing when she was dressed as a man? But you've been through it, I haven't and I can only imagine what it must be like, so I'll leave that to those who know better.

[MacShreach]

Do you realize that Felicia is leaning towards transexualism? Do you realize Macshreach there is sometimes more to it than what you put in a pretty little box. I have always liked you, but you disgust me on this topic.

So what, you like being called a man? Read her post. She said any man who has sex with you must by definition, her words, be homosexual. Since the word homosexual means "sex between two individuals of the same gender," and she defined one of the parties as a man, she was stating that in her view, all TS women are men, since her statement made it clear that both parties were of the same gender. In other words, SHE WAS CALLING YOU, YES YOU PERSONALLY, a man. Go read the post again. I did not set out to attack Felicia, she set out to attack me by calling me a poof, but arsed it up because she hadn't thought it through, and I called her out on it.

You're the TS, not me. If you're happy to be classed as a man, that's fine. Surprising, but fine.

[Night Rider]

If I'm being honest, I'd guess that the majority of transsexual women understand that cross dressers are not women. It's understandible that they'd want to protect their friends, but the truth of the matter is CDs are men.

[MacShreach]

If I'm being honest, I'd guess that the majority of transsexual women understand that cross dressers are not women.

Mmmm. And they have a curious way of appreciating men who stick up for them, But then, they are women....... :D :D

[Night Rider]

This is it Mac, they're a complicated species!

[Felicia Katt]

I posted this back in September but thought it warranted repeating again now

Everyone is so consumed by labels, by what makes a male a male, and a female, a female, and what it means to be attracted to one or the other or both. But ultimately, all of the things that we think of to divide male from female: hair and skin and body size and shape and breasts, are all secondary sexual characteristics, and as such, they differentiate but they don't define. For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

But Male is not man and female is not woman. Your anatomy is not your gender, which is much more of a psychological construct than a physical absolute. Genitals are not what makes a man a man, or woman, a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man, or exclude you from being a woman. Your gender is between your ears, not your legs.

Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes. Being gay or straight is more about who you are attracted to, and why, and how you interact with them, and how you interrelate to the rest of the world. Being "gay" is more of a social poltical identity than a sexual one, just as being straight is. If an open admitted gay guy becomes celibate, he is still gay. If he sleeps with women, I would argue he is still gay as well. A man who is attracted to a transgendered woman can be straight. but he can't technically claim to be wholly heterosexual.

The term transsexual is an unfortunate one, because unlike homo and heterosexual, being transsexual is not about sex, its about gender. If they would have started with the term transgendered at the outset, instead of it evolving slowly and fitfully into more common usage, there might be a lot less confusion and angst among the transgendered community.

Trans=cross though, so its not really accurate to label someone who is attracted to the transgendered a transsexual, because there is no cross sexual component. if you wanted to be painfully accurate, a trans-sexual would be someone who was attracted to someone of the opposite gender but who came accross as being of the same gender. A man and an FTM or a lesbian and MTF would be a trans-sexual relationships. But those are pretty few and far between, and we can never unring the bell as far as the terminology of transsexualism goes, so the term will continue to define gender and to confound how we deal with it.

I'm not sure what latin or scientific term would best define someone who is attracted to the transgendered. Nor am I sure there should be one. A case could be made for the term transphillic, but that may be too much like paraphillic, which is the clinical term for fetish and what is derogatorially referred to as perversions.

I think rather than trying to find a new label, or force a fit with the old ones, that you should love who you love, or lust for those who you lust for, and do so proudly, and openly and shrug off those who would try to define or confine you. Sexuality is nothing if not fluid, and too many people are swimming against its current instead of going with the flow

FK

[Nowhere]

Ok, while I understand what the point the OP had, it just can't work.

You see, there ARE girls who start off their transitioning in drag.

There are also girls who think they're just gay boys doing the drag thing who end up realizing they're really girls as time passes.

That's why you get a blur with some people.

Are Erica Andrews and Krystal Summers girls or are they just damn serious drag queens who decided to take it further into breasts and hormones?

That's a question only they can answer

Granted that it is a fact that there's a lot of GUYS who just get their rocks off in a pair of pantyhose, wannabe-ing that they are like these girls here, but instead of just segregating them, I feel their hairy asses should be roasted alive like they usually are, by the true girls here.

Any true girl wouldn't make such a poor effort at passing.

No way.

[peggygee]

Everyone is so consumed by labels, by what makes a male a male, and a female, a female, and what it means to be attracted to one or the other or both. But ultimately, all of the things that we think of to divide male from female: hair and skin and body size and shape and breasts, are all secondary sexual characteristics, and as such, they differentiate but they don't define. For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

But Male is not man and female is not woman. Your anatomy is not your gender, which is much more of a psychological construct than a physical absolute. Genitals are not what makes a man a man, or woman, a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man, or exclude you from being a woman. Your gender is between your ears, not your legs.......



FK

Well stated, it's not as simple as boys have an 'outie', and girls have
an 'innie'.

:shrug

[MrsKellyPierce]

Excuse me Erica Andrews sees herself as a woman. <<I know Erica

[Felicia Katt]

In Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll wrote

"When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less....The question is...which is to be master -- that's all."

That may be ok for Humpty Dumpty and Scottish Ogres, but the rest of us have actual dictionaries for more consistency and clarity.

Homosexual: A person sexually attracted to persons of the same sex. Homosexuals include males (gays) and females (lesbians).

Heterosexual: A person sexually attracted to persons of the opposite sex. Or a person who has sexual relations with the opposite sex

Notice it says sex, not gender. As I had set forth before, sex is betwen your legs, gender is between your ears. Others may conflate the terms but I don't. I was very careful to limit what I said to penis on penis actions and not to label anyone a homosexual. Re-read it if you doubt this, read my post above for my real context, but if anyone felt they were being called a poofter it was their thin skin not my sharp claw. I just pointed out that if you have a penis and so does your partner, you cannot claim your actions and attractions as entirely heterosexual. Nor should you claim that others similar actions or attractions are entirely homosexual.

Transsexualism: A consistently strong desire to change one's anatomical gender.
Transsexuals may dress and behave as individuals of the opposite sex, and may choose to use hormones or surgery to develop desired secondary sex characteristics.

Notice here that it is about desire. Not actions. It says may, not has or do or must. Being a transsexual is about how you feel, not what you do or cannot do in pursuit of those feelings.

To be sure, the definition does include this:

Transsexualism is distinct from transvestism (cross-dressing) and does not always indicate a change in the individual's sexual preference

If a person does not desire to change their gender, then their crossdressing may ultimately be, as was said, so cruelly, just a cock in a frock. But its a question of intention and is not defined, or excluded by the action itself. It can just be a kink or a fantasy. But it can also be a sincere expression of someone's inner gender. Its up to the individual to define it. They can do so by their words, or their actions. Not every person who crossdresses is a TS. But some certainly are. And unless they do or say something to you, personally to warrant its withdrawal, all should be afforded some modicum of respect.

Finally, on a less detached note.

I did NOTHING to warrant the kind of vicious personal attack that took place here. I turned someone's own harsh words against them, pointed out the self serving, inaccurate definitions they were trying to apply and made a request for respect for all not just a few. I have never engaged in personal attacks here and I never will. I come here to make points, not enemies, and to exchange ideas, not blows.

I'm sorry if someone took what I said in this thread as an attempt to belittle them. I don't think a fair reading of my post supports that. I'm not sorry for what I said, though I feel sorry for someone who could somehow be so threatened by it that they felt they had to go so negative and so personal. I can't fully understand all the anger and hatred that fuel such a message, but I can overlook it and I will try to forgive it.

I think it is great that there are guys who have that kind of passion for transsexual women. But to have that, and demonstrate no compassion for those who don't fit the narrow labels they they have self defined for their own purposes serves their interest in those girls very poorly.

You know the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

about 2 years.

Every girl you rave about here has been through that period of doubt and despair and discovery. Some found their path through the looking glass into this wonderland right away, some wandered around lost for a while, and some others took a wrong turn on a dead end road. As Carroll said "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” But its the jouney, not the destination that defines us and unites us and to demean anyone for their progress on that path is to do so retroactively to all those who passed that point before.

Peace

FK

[Nowhere]

Excuse me Erica Andrews sees herself as a woman. <<I know Erica

My choice of her was intentional, as she went through the same 'drag' thing people are being appalled with in this thread.

Obviously, she sees herself as a woman and IS a woman - as are some TV people who are actually TG beneath it all (I wouldn't even argue most) when they start.

And, because of that, you can't exclude / segregate them.

[trish]

OMG felicia...thankyou for that most wonderful post. i'm making a copy of that for my files...it's a keeper.

[TrueBeauty TS]

As far as I can see the only people who have a problem with that are the CD/TVs like TrueBeauty"TS" (who is about as transsexual as my left armpit) and the reason they have a problem with it is that they deeply, bitterly resent that genuinely TS women get higher status, so they think, than they do. It must be awful for them when they see a man they fancy and he takes one look at the wig, screams "AAAAARGH, you're a MAN!" and flees the building, so it's easy to see how some of them end up as twisted as they are.




LMFAO!! :lol: I'm thinking I may use that as my new sig....


Gosh MacPoofter, I guess I really hit close to home with this...



YOU on the other hand are easy to read: a dim-witted, self-loathing, homophobic bully who's only contribution you make to the transgender world is the money you pay TS escorts to fulfill your fantasy of being intimate with a another penis that is not your own.



Was I a little too accurate??

:wink:


.

[TrueBeauty TS]

"Your fantasy of being intimate with a another penis that is not your own"? I can't believe you would say such a thing, you kooky CD. ;)

Actually, why don't you show him a pic of yourself and blow his mind?


Believe me, I don't want to blow anything of his. lol

:lol:



.

[MacShreach]

You know the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

about 2 years.



You would like to provide some statistics to prove this?

The people who are guilty of semantic manipulation in this are the CD/TV apologists, including yourself. If you don't want to get called out on it, don't make the statements.

You said:


those things are homosexual acts.

It doesn't matter if the person with a penis has, through surgery and hormones managed to otherwise become a beautiful woman. Nor does it matter how deep the closet you are in may be. When the chips and pants are down if you have a penis and so does your partner, the truth that is told is that you are not entirely heterosexual.

Don't try handbagging your way out of it, calling me names or any more glib, superficial nonsense, the above is what you said. Since for an act to be homosexual the individuals must be of the same gender, the above statement clearly implies that both parties in the relationship you refer to are of the same gender, so unless you are suggesting that I am a woman, YOU ARE SAYING THAT PRE-OP TS WOMEN ARE MEN.

Which is what I said you said. I attacked you for being grossly offensive to TS woman by calling them men, which, as we have just proved (for the third time) you did.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Oh and BTW, Chuck, racist insults we are very used to and your use of them comes as no surprise whatsoever.None.

[MacShreach]

Believe me, I don't want to blow anything of his. lol

:lol:



.

Sorry, dearie, I'm not into men, whether in drag or otherwise.

Now you just run along and play with your wee pals.

[MacShreach]

De doo de doo..

[MrsKellyPierce]

Was Candis a TS when she appeared in the Wigstock movie? To those seeing her, "no". In her head...? No Candis didn't realize till after that. Least the very first Wig Stock then the next one she got all transy and then better better and now she's the creature she is today lol

[Kirsty Scott TG]

(Firstly, If I have been personal in reply with any of my comments I apologise to that person ........... You'll know who you are - Olive branch?)

From the general discussions there seems to be two distinct, and in this post opposing thoughts on what defines a transsexual.

The first is that a transsexual is a person who believes that his or her body does not reflect his or her true 'inner' identification of physical sex or gender.

The second is that a transsexual is a person who has had or intends to have medical or surgical treatments to alter their body to better reflect what the individual believes is his or her true gender.

would these be close to how people feel?

The second defines the term based on actual or planned status and makes it more an external label than any term of self-definition.

Bearing that in mind the second would suggest that being born in the wrong body could never have been a concept until such time as an operation to change gender became feasible ........ A modern condition.

If we believe that throughout the ages that the feeling of being born in the wrong body was a very real "concept" (for want of a much better word) then the first description has to be the true meaning of being transsexual. Crossdressing at that time being the closest possible mode of expressing that desire, and certainly not an activity based on any fetish.

I can understand why many would feel that the physical stage of transition determines how transsexualism is defined. With post- and pre- then becoming the prefix to describe a girl's position in a queue.

The joke about 2 years between a transvestite (UK description) and transsexual aside and certainly from many a conversation I have had in the past with other girls of both status, as well as my own feelings, there does seem to be one determining factor in the (granted) self analysis .......

Is the person happy with their male self. If it was possible to step into a machine, to forget about any social, financial and personal complications would they miss the male side of themselves? Not the other factors in their lives but actually being male.

Is the person happy to switch in and out of roles as they want or is that something that through conditioning and external pressures they require to adhere to ........ until breaking point or opportunity permits that to change.

That seems to me to be why so many girls wait until much later in life to transition. When guilt no longer holds them back, when family have moved on, when Finance is there to support it ....... when there is far less to lose by following how they have always truly felt.

This is where girls who have transitioned can tell me if I am wrong .......

It is what has holds me back ...... the fear. The fear that what I may lose is more than what I will gain to be happy with my body. That's why I try and find a balance to get by. If only the physical transformation was as easy as some make it sound.

That is why I hold so much respect for those who have followed there hearts ....... and hopefully now the internet is here there are sites and information out there to help younger girls decide much earlier before they find themselves in postions they are effectively trapped in. (again for want of a much better description)

That is the self assessment, when a girl is truly honest with herself, is surley the determining factor on where they lie on the "spectrum" if we still need to apply for our labels along with our name badges.

Accepted our mental state doesn't make us physically appealing ..... but it surley means that those who base status on look shouldn't determine who fits in what box.

It's a shame that irrespective of what we are this thread has in parts forgotton we are all human. Even if the decision to split the board is a resounding yes there is no need to use the terms CD/TV as insults?


Kirsty
xxx xxx
No longer sure whether I am qualified to answer any questions here......

[Tomfurbs]

:arrow:
Everyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

This is what I'm picking up from the majority of the ladies in this conversation.

Gender is subjective. A person can choose to be a woman or a man, regardless of his/her appearance, manner of dress, or sexual orientation. So in other words, if a man grows a mustache, wears men's clothes- say 25 days out of the month-, has no plans to change his name, but says that he feels like a woman, he is, therefore, a woman.

Did I get that right? My gender is what I, and only I, decide, right?

So a mtf crossdresser can be either a man or a woman, depending on his/her choice.


Is Gender subjective? yes man...christ you've been on this board long enough to know that.

[Tomfurbs]

MacSchreach, I don't quite know why you are labouring away at this point dude (been hitting the 1664 before 12pm perchance? that was a j/k ok?). As someone who has had experience within the TS community one would have thought you would be aware of the fact that everyone has to start somewhere, and the cross-dresser of your nightmares (a man in a dress... perish the Mcfucking thought!), might well turn out to be (given the benefit and grace of some years of transition) the transwoman of your most contorted, bug-eyed wet dreams. Think on that eh...

Of course I agree with you that cross-dressers who do so only for sex-kicks are men, they would agree too!! trust me... But how do you think the trannies you jack-off over started... oh yeah, by putting on womens' clothes!

I hate to sound like an asskiss, but you have managed to insult a few well established transwomen on this board over the last five or so pages of this thread, so while I agree with you that Cross-dressers (who admit to themselves that they are only doing it for kicks, god bless 'em) are men, you are hoisted by your own petard by calling obvious transwomen CD's.

Just doesn't make any sense

[Nowhere]

Everyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

This is what I'm picking up from the majority of the ladies in this conversation.

Gender is subjective. A person can choose to be a woman or a man, regardless of his/her appearance, manner of dress, or sexual orientation. So in other words, if a man grows a mustache, wears men's clothes- say 25 days out of the month-, has no plans to change his name, but says that he feels like a woman, he is, therefore, a woman.

Did I get that right? My gender is what I, and only I, decide, right?

So a mtf crossdresser can be either a man or a woman, depending on his/her choice.

No, it depends on what they realize. It's either part of a self-actualization process of twomen or just guys getting their rocks off. It's up to them to figure that out.

I do believe gender is something you're wired with, and absolutely not chosen.

[mbf]

I just now worked my way through this unpleasant thread, and while I dont give a rats ass about the original question, bc I honestly dont care, you made an ass of yourself, Mac, by (trying to) insult Felicia Katt and TrueBeautyTS.

one can debate without personal insults, I never have (intentionally), and why you, a grown man past the age of 40 cant, is beyond me. even more it seems you cant let go.

[MacShreach]

re men, you are hoisted by your own petard by calling obvious transwomen CD's.

Just doesn't make any sense

I didn't, you complete idiot, Felicia did. If you can't read plain English, get to fuck.


i have consistently maintained that TS women are women from the start. CD/TVs are men in frocks.

Try reading next time, asskisser.

[Tomfurbs]

Felicia, Truebeauty, they are obvious transwomen. You called them CHUCK, knobhead.

Case closed

[MacShreach]

I just now worked my way through this unpleasant thread, and while I dont give a rats ass about the original question, bc I honestly dont care, you made an ass of yourself, Mac, by (trying to) insult Felicia Katt and TrueBeautyTS.

one can debate without personal insults, I never have (intentionally), and why you, a grown man past the age of 40 cant, is beyond me. even more it seems you cant let go.

Whatever.

[MacShreach]

Felicia, Truebeauty, they are obvious transwomen. You called them CHUCK, knobhead.

Case closed


Whatever. Asskisser.

[Tomfurbs]

There's no talking to you, you dopey scot. I'll leave you to your one escort jape a month.

[MacShreach]

There's no talking to you, you dopey scot. I'll leave you to your one escort jape a month.

Oh wow, another Englishman states his intrinsic racial superiority. What a surprise.

[Tomfurbs]

I am scottish, dipshit.

[MacShreach]

you're waaaaaaaaaaaay off here.

Okay, if she's a TS, why is she getting so het up about a bunch of men in drag? I mean I don't, you know, like you or anything, but I do respect you, if only because I know you're a fighter. She comes across like a typical cock in a frock, if you say she isn't, fine. I'll accept she isn't, and if she retracts her insults, I'll retract mine.

There's no more to say here, the matter is established; there is a difference between CD/TVs and Transsexuals.

[peggygee]

:arrow:
Everyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

This is what I'm picking up from the majority of the ladies in this conversation.

Gender is subjective. A person can choose to be a woman or a man, regardless of his/her appearance, manner of dress, or sexual orientation. So in other words, if a man grows a mustache, wears men's clothes- say 25 days out of the month-, has no plans to change his name, but says that he feels like a woman, he is, therefore, a woman.

Did I get that right? My gender is what I, and only I, decide, right?

So a mtf crossdresser can be either a man or a woman, depending on his/her choice.

I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/Rover.gif

If you declare that you are transsexual you must perform actions in
furtherance of that.

Yes the genesis or birth of your transsexuality is in your mind and your
soul, but you've got to 'put in the work' if you are truly to be deemed a
transsexual.

And though I am post op, by no means am I implying that if a woman's
ultimate goal isn't SRS that she isn't transsexual, there is still a level of
committment required.

I'm old school and somewhat rigid on this, if you don't fit the
Benjamin criteria and or APA guidelines, you are not a transsexual.

To the untrained and trained eye as well, it may be difficult to discern
the 'true' transsexual.

It can not ascertained merely by demeanor, manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps this will be helpful in making an accurate assessment:

Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/benjamin.jpg

Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick
out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing
and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly.
May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or
part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual.
Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce
libido. Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with
male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)
Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as
possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath
male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed.
Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May
purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful
emotionally Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as
to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman;
sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-
erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not
admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing
gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal
male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

[MacShreach]

I am scottish, dipshit.

Really?

[MacShreach]

I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.

<SNIP>

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html


Sorry to be an asskisser, but 100% co-sign.

[MacShreach]

I am scottish, dipshit.

You do realise it's not enough to look Scottish, you have to feel Scottish inside. I mean you have understood that, right? Plenty of people look Scottish but when you get down to it they're really English.

Are you one of those?

[Tomfurbs]

I am scottish, dipshit.

Really?

Yeeeees, man, reeeealy.

Nothing more needs to be said. You have dug yourself into a pretty messy hole over the last five pages or so. Cool...this is just internet guff.

But still, have you been hitting that cool, glossy, fridge-fresh 1664 just a little early these last few weeks?

bye

[peggygee]

I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.

<SNIP>

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html


Sorry to be an asskisser, but 100% co-sign.

Thanks Mac, I'n trying to remain subjective on this issue.

I realize that this is a sensitive subject for all involved. As a transwoman
it has implications for me as well.

I hold the viewpoints of yourself, Felicea, TrueBeauty, Nicole, braverman,
in very high regards, thus I would implore everyone to attempt to stick
to the topic at hand, and to not allow a very important thread to devolve
into ad hominem attacks.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

I am scottish, dipshit.

You do realise it's not enough to look Scottish, you have to feel Scottish inside. I mean you have understood that, right? Plenty of people look Scottish but when you get down to it they're really English.

Are you one of those?

Shit I hate to admit it .... but that was funny

Kirsty
xxx xxx

Two negatives make a positive but only in Scotland do two
positives make a negative - "Aye right."

[MacShreach]

Two negatives make a positive but only in Scotland do two
positives make a negative - "Aye right."

LOL

[MacShreach]

bye

That's the third time you've left in under three hours. Want to make it a keeper this time?

"I knew we had to say goodbye
When I felt that warmth against my thigh,
Hey! Is that you,
Pissin' on my leg?"

Nice to see yer back.

[MacShreach]

a very important thread to devolve
into ad hominem attacks.

No problem ref; if those who attempt, clumsily, to suggest that all TS women are in fact men, by stating that any man who has sex with a TS woman is homosexual, are prepared to retract that and accept that this is not the case, that it is indeed possible for a TS to be a woman and therefore for her to have non-homosexual sex with a man, and therefore vice versa, then I will happily extend the hand of reconciliation.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.

It's not a matter or anyone being better than anyone else- but the differences are major.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Was Candis a TS when she appeared in the Wigstock movie? To those seeing her, "no". In her head...?

funny- Candis and I started transitioning at the same time.
We both knew each other back in the day when we were both dqs.

a lot of my friends who were club kids and dqs with me back in the day did transition as well- some have had had srs, some not.

but for some- it is definately a road to start transitioning.

for me it certainly was.

becoming a transssexual for me was simply an evolvement of my femininity as a person. i was a drag queen/club kind since i was 18 until i started to transition at 20.

[MacShreach]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.


Yeah, me too.

I love that look, BTW. Suits you.

[TrueBeauty TS]

you're waaaaaaaaaaaay off here.

Okay, if she's a TS, why is she getting so het up about a bunch of men in drag? I mean I don't, you know, like you or anything, but I do respect you, if only because I know you're a fighter. She comes across like a typical cock in a frock, if you say she isn't, fine. I'll accept she isn't, and if she retracts her insults, I'll retract mine.

There's no more to say here, the matter is established; there is a difference between CD/TVs and Transsexuals.


First off, to all those that stuck up for me and had kind words about me - thank you! That is very kind of you and it genuinly warms my heart that people would do that for me. xoxo :oops:


Whether anyone here thinks I am a CD or TS or even a bamboo tree with internet access, makes no difference to me. I have more self esteem than that. I still have to go out, go to work, pay bills, and live my life. Enough people have met me in real life that I don't worry about it at all.

However, when I see something that I think is wrong, I will speak up about it. That's why I got so heated up. People can disagree without being insulting about it. When it's done out of ignorance, that's one thing. When it's done on purpose, then it makes my blood boil. I tend to fight fire with fire.


Here is what I think about the matter:

I think there are both differences and similarities with CD's and TS's. Some are minor and some are major. I don't think there is only black & white on the matter, either. I believe a lot of people fall in a grey area. IMO, gender expression has a wide spectrum.

I also don't think CD's automatically give TS's a bad name, as I think some have suggested. Some CD's are, and have been, great role models to the so-called community. While on the other hand, I've seen many TS's (and actions by TS's) that make me cringe to think that I may be associated with them.


.

[ottorocket]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.

It's not a matter or anyone being better than anyone else- but the differences are major.


One of those differences I understand is supporting a tgirl if she decides to go with SRS as her final transition, and sticking by her side to completion. Personally, i'm attracted to pre-op women as much as post-op and what makes her experience different from you're cd/tv is about 10,000x fold when she has in her mind completing that journey and becoming more than just the image of woman on the outside for the public to see...but also where the public doesn't. The purpose of the post wasn't to necassarily to enact a scarlet letter of distinction against any particular group, but perhaps maybe inevitabley so it just happens. And yes, there is no one is better than another, but since so many minority groups do fight for their own limelight, and territory, in real life...it surprises me also that the other group do not see it that way. I'm not unhappy as it is, as i can ignore what i want and do...but the poll seems to have brought up some lurking issues that need discussion.

[MacShreach]

<snip> I tend to fight fire with fire.



Got that







Here is what I think about the matter:

I think there are both differences and similarities with CD's and TS's. Some are minor and some are major. I don't think there is only black & white on the matter, either. I believe a lot of people fall in a grey area. IMO, gender expression has a wide spectrum.

I also don't think CD's automatically give TS's a bad name, as I think some have suggested. Some CD's are, and have been, great role models to the so-called community. While on the other hand, I've seen many TS's (and actions by TS's) that make me cringe to think that I may be associated with them.


.

No problem with any of that. If that counts as a retraction of the various insults you flung at me, thank you, I accept and I retract mine in turn. I'm tough, and when you're being nice, you're very very nice. You obviously don't think TS women are men and you accept that there are differences between CD/TVs and TS women, which is all I have ever said, so I don't see that you and I disagree in principle, though we may in degree.

I did say some offensive things to you, and I apologise for that. Although you were definitely cruising for it, I would accept that you may have misunderstood that my intention was and remains, to support genuinely TS women. I do believe that the political association between CD/TVs and TS women is of very little benefit to TS women; you're going to have to plough your own furrow, and if I may say so being offensive to men who support your case is perhaps a little counterproductive.

My hand is extended, I hope yours is too.

[BBaggins06]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.

It's not a matter or anyone being better than anyone else- but the differences are major.


One of those differences I understand is supporting a tgirl if she decides to go with SRS as her final transition, and sticking by her side to completion. Personally, i'm attracted to pre-op women as much as post-op and what makes her experience different from you're cd/tv is about 10,000x fold when she has in her mind completing that journey and becoming more than just the image of woman on the outside for the public to see

Um, no. SRS does not "complete the journey" as you put it. The journey never ends and SRS is just another signpost on the road. Mahalo

Matt

[ottorocket]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.

It's not a matter or anyone being better than anyone else- but the differences are major.


One of those differences I understand is supporting a tgirl if she decides to go with SRS as her final transition, and sticking by her side to completion. Personally, i'm attracted to pre-op women as much as post-op and what makes her experience different from you're cd/tv is about 10,000x fold when she has in her mind completing that journey and becoming more than just the image of woman on the outside for the public to see

Um, no. SRS does not "complete the journey" as you put it. The journey never ends and SRS is just another signpost on the road. Mahalo

Matt

Really..gee thanks for the update.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

shut up

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Whether anyone here thinks I am a CD or TS or even a bamboo tree with internet access, makes no difference to me. I have more self esteem than that. I still have to go out, go to work, pay bills, and live my life. Enough people have met me in real life that I don't worry about it at all.

However, when I see something that I think is wrong, I will speak up about it. That's why I got so heated up. People can disagree without being insulting about it. When it's done out of ignorance, that's one thing. When it's done on purpose, then it makes my blood boil. I tend to fight fire with fire.


.

I agree with everything you've said girl and feels as IF I was looking at myself in the mirror! Hehe ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[peggygee]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.

It's not a matter or anyone being better than anyone else- but the differences are major.


One of those differences I understand is supporting a tgirl if she decides to go with SRS as her final transition, and sticking by her side to completion. Personally, i'm attracted to pre-op women as much as post-op and what makes her experience different from you're cd/tv is about 10,000x fold when she has in her mind completing that journey and becoming more than just the image of woman on the outside for the public to see

Um, no. SRS does not "complete the journey" as you put it. The journey never ends and SRS is just another signpost on the road. Mahalo

Matt

I think I must beg to differ with you.

It is true that life is filled with ever changing needs, wants, and goals.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/thepyramid1.gif

But in terms of 'transitioning', the SRS should be the culmination.

And when I make that statement I am referring to the woman who has
has all the other prerequisites surgeries, procedures, therapy,HRT, etc,
not someone who wakes up one day, flies off to Thailand, and returns
with a neo-vagina.

If a woman has performed all the correct steps, once she has SRS, she is
now legally a female and it is her choice as to whether she choses to
blend into the mainstream, remain in trannyville, or a variation of that theme.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I agree with Nicole people are putting so much precedence on the post op surgery! If you don't already feel like a woman before, then I don't see the point in getting the full surgery in the first place. I think you need to be happy within yourself, before you even decide to take that step.


And just because you have a vagina doesn't make you anymore or less a woman. :roll:


I know MANY post-op transexuals that look like don king in a wig, but have this self absorbed attitude just because they have a vagina now. However they'd still be clocked out in public, and they could scream "But I have a vagina, I'm a woman I'm a woman. Lets face it people look at you clothed when you walk down the street. And you will be labeled how you look.

[BBaggins06]

I am shocked that so many of you see no difference between cd/tv and a ts.

It's not a matter or anyone being better than anyone else- but the differences are major.


One of those differences I understand is supporting a tgirl if she decides to go with SRS as her final transition, and sticking by her side to completion. Personally, i'm attracted to pre-op women as much as post-op and what makes her experience different from you're cd/tv is about 10,000x fold when she has in her mind completing that journey and becoming more than just the image of woman on the outside for the public to see

Um, no. SRS does not "complete the journey" as you put it. The journey never ends and SRS is just another signpost on the road. Mahalo

Matt

I think I must beg to differ with you.

It is true that life is filled with ever changing needs, wants, and goals.

But in terms of 'transitioning', the SRS should be the culmination.

And when I make that statement I am referring to the woman who has
has all the other prerequisites surgeries, procedures, therapy,HRT, etc,
not someone who wakes up one day, flies off to Thailand, and returns
with a neo-vagina.

If a woman has performed all the correct steps, once she has SRS, she is
now legally a female and it is her choice as to whether she choses to
blend into the mainstream, remain in trannyville, or a variation of that theme.

Maybe I can clarify my statement a bit. I didn't mean to diminish the significance that SRS can have in one's life. I just have trouble thinking that it should be thought of as the finish line which was what Otto was implying. Life must go on afterwards and you should try to prepare yourself for what comes after the operation. That's all. Mahalo

Matt

[Felicia Katt]

I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.

sorry Peggy, but Katt's know a thing or two about dogs and not every one hunts. I don't think the Benjamin scale has a lot current clinical relevance or observation. More modern views on gender identity issues exclude sexual orientation as a criterion for diagnosing and distinguishing between transsexuality, transvestism and other forms of gender variant behavior or expression and also exclude fetishistic transvestism from this spectrum, as it is a distinct phenomenon, not related to gender identity but related to sexual arousal and fetishism.

but even under his outdated scale, you do not have to transition to be a transsexual. Indeed, his first criteria is gender feeling.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman sometimes alternating.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.

Under either of those categories, a person can be transsexual and not be full time. That would make them just a crossdresser to some on here. But not Dr Benjamin or his successors.

Under the Benjamin Scale, you are also apparently only a "True transsexual" if you want SRS and I think a lot of girls might take offense to the idea they are "false" or in anyway less of a transsexual because they choose not to undergo that surgery.

respectfully
FK

[peggygee]

If a woman has performed all the correct steps, once she has SRS, she is
now legally a female and it is her choice as to whether she choses to
blend into the mainstream, remain in trannyville, or a variation of that theme.

I disagree. There's no guarantee that a person like this will never get clocked, never get spooked, and function stress-free. I know post-ops who get clocked often, and it seems to fuck with their heads. I believe that in California, medically, you are always considered male. So on your medical records, where people's prejudices could actually affect your health, you still have a male history to deal with. So not everyone should assume that taking these steps means they will blend into the mainstream without a problem.




I agree with Nicole people are putting so much precedence on the post op surgery! If you don't already feel like a woman before, then I don't see the point in getting the full surgery in the first place. I think you need to be happy within yourself, before you even decide to take that step.


And just because you have a vagina doesn't make you anymore or less a woman. :roll:


I know MANY post-op transexuals that look like don king in a wig, but have this self absorbed attitude just because they have a vagina now. However they'd still be clocked out in public, and they could scream "But I have a vagina, I'm a woman I'm a woman. Lets face it people look at you clothed when you walk down the street. And you will be labeled how you look.



Maybe I can clarify my statement a bit. I didn't mean to diminish the significance that SRS can have in one's life. I just have trouble thinking that it should be thought of as the finish line which was what Otto was implying. Life must go on afterwards and you should try to prepare yourself for what comes after the operation. That's all. Mahalo



I agree with just about everything each one of you has said.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/fairy-wand.gifSRS doesn't magically solve all of your problems.

And it certainly isn't for everyone.

I would go a step further and say that it would be totally unappropriate
for some, and could be something that they could come to regret,
perhaps primarily because they haven't gone into it with realistic expectations.

For me it has been a good thing.

I have often expressed how unhappy I was with a penis.

Additionally, post operatively it has allowed me career opportunites that
I might not have had.

Yes my identification had 'F' on it prior to my SRS, and I was able to work
at a regular job, but the thought of a physical at work, or sharing a hotel
room with a co-worker, filled me with dread.

Now legally I am female with all the rights, privileges inherent to that. I
don't have to seek ENDA / GENDA protection or state protection afforded
to the transgendered.

Ladies, and gentleman, when I transitioned in the 'bad old days', my goal
decades ago was to assimilate, to be part of the mainstream.

I can humbly say that for the most part I have obtained that goal.

[KiraHarden]

I'll keep this simple. Should there be a separate thread? I could care less. But there is now way in hell a cd is the same as a TS. We may be cousins but we are not sisters. Its not about the boobs, hips, or any other surgery. It's about the brain...

[Felicia Katt]

No problem ref; if those who attempt, clumsily, to suggest that all TS women are in fact men, by stating that any man who has sex with a TS woman is homosexual, are prepared to retract that and accept that this is not the case, that it is indeed possible for a TS to be a woman and therefore for her to have non-homosexual sex with a man, and therefore vice versa, then I will happily extend the hand of reconciliation.
Can I see both hands, out in front of you, fingers spread? LOL Sweetie, I NEVER called anyone a homosexual, and I certainly never called any of my TS friends a man. Nor would I, ever. I have been lucky enough to meet most of the girls on here and consider them some of the most beautiful and talented women I have ever met, and I am blessed to have many of them as my friends. I have many more transsexual friends who wouldn't be caught dead on here but whose name and images come up on here all the time. Anyone who knows me know I have the nothing but the utmost respect for all my sisters. And I hope from them as well.

I also treat other members of the community with respect too. Even when they do things to me or to others that are disrepectful. I think with all I have written on this ugly subject of labels, my real position on all this is clear. If you want to consider yourself straight feel free to do so. And if you want to consider your actions and attractions as non-homsexual, do so. but don't claim they are strictly heterosexual either. Don't force labels that don't fit on your actions or on others actions. Live and let live, or Label and let label. If you want to show your respect and reverance for transsexuals, thre are better ways to do so than by dissing others or by trying to draw distinctions when the ink in that pen is so runny.

FK

[bilko]

No problem ref; if those who attempt, clumsily, to suggest that all TS women are in fact men, by stating that any man who has sex with a TS woman is homosexual, are prepared to retract that and accept that this is not the case, that it is indeed possible for a TS to be a woman and therefore for her to have non-homosexual sex with a man, and therefore vice versa, then I will happily extend the hand of reconciliation.
Can I see both hands, out in front of you, fingers spread? LOL Sweetie, I NEVER called anyone a homosexual, and I certainly never called any of my TS friends a man. Nor would I, ever. I have been lucky enough to meet most of the girls on here and consider them some of the most beautiful and talented women I have ever met, and I am blessed to have many of them as my friends. I have many more transsexual friends who wouldn't be caught dead on here but whose name and images come up on here all the time. Anyone who knows me know I have the nothing but the utmost respect for all my sisters. And I hope from them as well.

I also treat other members of the community with respect too. Even when they do things to me or to others that are disrepectful. I think with all I have written on this ugly subject of labels, my real position on all this is clear. If you want to consider yourself straight feel free to do so. And if you want to consider your actions and attractions as non-homsexual, do so. but don't claim they are strictly heterosexual either. Don't force labels that don't fit on your actions or on others actions. Live and let live, or Label and let label. If you want to show your respect and reverance for transsexuals, thre are better ways to do so than by dissing others or by trying to draw distinctions when the ink in that pen is so runny.

FK

i understand what you are saying.
and may i say before i start,you have some stunning looks.
ok here is the deal on how i feel.
if i was gay,i feel i would find guys attractive and want to do acts with them,seeing as im only attracted sexually to ts or gg i dont consider myself gay at all,but if someone wants to say im gay ,who gives a fuck,i know i dont .
:)

[peggygee]

I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.

A. Sorry Peggy, but Katt's know a thing or two about dogs and not every one hunts. I don't think the Benjamin scale has a lot current clinical relevance or observation.


B. More modern views on gender identity issues exclude sexual orientation as a criterion for diagnosing and distinguishing between transsexuality, transvestism and other forms of gender variant behavior or expression and also exclude fetishistic transvestism from this spectrum, as it is a distinct phenomenon, not related to gender identity but related to sexual arousal and fetishism.

C. but even under his outdated scale, you do not have to transition to be a transsexual. Indeed, his first criteria is gender feeling.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman sometimes alternating.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.

Under either of those categories, a person can be transsexual and not be full time. That would make them just a crossdresser to some on here. But not Dr Benjamin or his successors.

Under the Benjamin Scale, you are also apparently only a "True transsexual" if you want SRS and I think a lot of girls might take offense to the idea they are "false" or in anyway less of a transsexual because they choose not to undergo that surgery.

respectfully
FK

Yes our views on gender identity and sexual orientation have evolved.

A MTF transsexual does not have to have a libidinal interest in males, nor
does a FTM transsexual have an affinity for females to be deemed
transsexuals.

Sexual orientation for the most part has become a moot point as a
determining criteria for transsexualism.

I also agree with you that transvestic fetishism: a sexual attraction
towards the clothing of the opposite gender, is a paraphilia listed in the
DSM-IV-TR, and is not tied to gender identity.

On the point of 'True' transsexuals, no that might not be the most PC term
but there needs to be some system to delineate the intensity felt by the
individual.

And no that does not mean that the women who isn't desirous of GRS is
less of a woman than the one who does seek it out.

But rather this may guide the clinician in their course of treatment.

So yes the Benjamin gender disassociation scale needs to updated, I
would daresay that the Benjamin Standards Of Care need revision as
well, but I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

At least until we get something better to guide us, and the Blanchard /
Bailey paradigm ain't it.

[Felicia Katt]

i understand what you are saying.
and may i say before i start,you have some stunning looks.
ok here is the deal on how i feel.
if i was gay,i feel i would find guys attractive and want to do acts with them,seeing as im only attracted sexually to ts or gg i dont consider myself gay at all,but if someone wants to say im gay ,who gives a fuck,i know i dont .
:)

Thank you :) and thanks to everyone else who spoke up for me here or in the chatroom.

FK

[hondarobot]

shut up

No fucking doubt.

:?

[hondarobot]

That was directed at the topic, not any poster. This is a long dead subject.

Over and out.