What IS a transsexual? Give us your opinion...

[justatransgirl]

This is an expansion of an off topic discussion on another thread that I feel is worthy of it's own thread and public comment. Here's the original if you want the full background.

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=26865&start=40

What IS a transsexual?

In other words what is the transgender "condition?" Is it one of a transitional nature - the clinical explaination. Or is it a state of mind and body? Is it simply a medical / mental health condition to be "corrected." Or is it (as I believe) an evolution of mankind through the use of modern plastic medicine and melding of technology?

In the clinical sense of binary society the condition of being transsexual is one of transition from one gender to another. That's it. You are a boy or a girl or temporarily in-between, nothing else..

But what about the "permenant" transsexual - someone who transcends gender - someone who lives, who is part boy, part girl, part both and part neither? The "top," the professional sex worker or porn star - at what point is transsexuality a decision of personal choice rather than genetic deformity? Who is to say someone should or should not take hormones and transition fully into their perceived - or chosen - gender?

At what point is sexuality allowed to dictate gender? At what point is gender allowed to dictate "who" or what a person is? We all know the clinical description that sexuality and gender are two different things - but most of us here are sexually active and open about it - and we know the separation of gender and sexuality is mostly BS, developed by people who don't get any sex (IMHO - giggle). I believe the two are intregal to each other.

At what point does society get to choose who can transition and why? Should it be only those who "pass" as genetic women? Only those who transition at a very early age?

Should society ONLY be binary? Are you either a boy or a girl, or in transition from one to the other on a temporary basis. Or can you be both?

What about the future?

Some of the younger people on this site may see the advent of cybertronic implants - a ruidmentary borg body so to speak. What about the very probable fact that in our lifetimes it will be possible to transplant a uterus and female reproductive organs into a genetic male body.

Will THAT make a boy into a girl? Just wait until that happens if you want to see a firestorm of religious extremism and gender intolerance. What happens when a "boy" can have a baby? What happens when the day comes that a TS can have their OWN baby - by freezing sperm before transition and either using donor eggs, or perhaps someday transition will include the ability for a TS to produce and fertalize her own eggs - that could REALLY be interesting.

The term "go fuck yourself" could take on a whole new meaning... giggle. :-)

What about a boy (TS) who feels the need, or simply chooses to live and "be" a girl, but doesn't want SRS and a Uterine transplant. Where will they be? Will they be forced to choose between a binary gender set? What about the TS who enjoys sex in a male sex role (top) with a genetic female?

Will humanity evolve into the ability to choose between multiple genders? Male, Female, MtF, FtM, Eunuch, whatever. Or will intolerance and religious superstitions and non-accpetance issues within our own community dictate the course of existance?

Some rather deep questions to ponder - let's hear your opinions.
Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[SexyMagdi]

Well I have read alot of the technical stuff to why a men become TS's or CD's. But in my opinion its becuase a man feels better more alive as a woman. Being a man all the time is dull so pretending to be a woman is an extreme change and something new. (Own reasons) I feel very sexy in womens clothes. I feel free, and nasty, and wrong. Oh Its fantastic. I get an erection all the time when Im in my female form. Oh I feel better as a girl than I do as a boy.

[Nowhere]

Ok, i've thought about this for a long while and i'm pretty sure this is how it works:

Kinsey defined sexual orientation on a scale of 1 to 5 in terms of straight to gay.

Now, while I think that's overly simplistic, and that there are shades of gray, I believe the same thing exists for gender orientation.

So, I believe people have both sexual orientations and both gender orientations inside themselves. ALL of us. It's simply a question of which one you lean more towards, and that is 'wired' in us, from birth.

Regardless of the truth, society forces people in terms of their sexual orientation to 'pick' whichever side they want to be on, gay or straight, and I think that's a biproduct of fear and politics. I've had some of the gayest acting people say, in confidence that they do like women to a definite degree. But, in their culture it's just as looked down upon to be not hardlined gay as it is in the more conservative community in the Bible belt to not be straight, so people pick their sides.

People are as true to themselves, as society allows. And, the black and white paradigm is all that's allowed, so that's all people allow themselves. They put up mental blocks and don't address the gray side of themselves, their other orientation, in their mind.

When it comes to gender identity, it's the exact same thing. People are as true to themselves as society allows. Women have a huge range of expressing their identities, especially among the lesbian community, so they do just that. There are bull dykes that are virtually indistinguishable from FTMs. But, that exists less in the gay (male) community, so they'll be effeminate, but only so far. It's even more restrictive in straight society, so you see how men and women take to their molds.

But, just as people put up walls in their sexual orientation in their mind between what's acceptable in their community and what's not, the same goes for gender identity. I'm quite sure you'd see a lot more effeminate men out there if it was allowed, and you see quite a few more butch women out there, especially in straight society, if it was allowed.

My point is that, you've got people all over the spectrum, and that's what naturally occurs. Yes, there are large groups on both ends, but there's also plenty in the middle, for both sexual and gender orientation. Society (and the repercussions in society) force people to put up conscious or subconscious mental walls in addressing that, and you see what you see today.

As i've said before, the gay community and even the religious right don't dare want this known because it threatens both of them. If everyone saw how they have both orientations of both types of orientations in themselves (no matter how small one of them is), people would stop being identified by their groups, and just be, well, people. There would be no point in so many separate 'gay' groups, events, organizations, etc. People would just be into what they are, and who they are and that's it. So, don't expect them to be supporting this concept, any time soon.

To answer your question, in 2007, a transsexual is a person categorized, segregated and discriminated against due to them being true to their gender identity, which does not fit the atypical mold of the gender they're born with. If those social issues did not exist and people really understood the truth, they would simply be human beings, with mismatched genitalia, corrected at youth, growing up just like anyone else.

[andyuk]

i will never know being a guy.
all i know is i admire these ladys,for being the people they was meant to be.
i cant imagine how hard it is to tell ones parents,or to dress out in public for the first time.
you all have my respect.
i only know one of you ts ladys off this board,and the girl i know is 100% female,and thats all i have ever thought she was.

[slinky]

I've heard this argument before : That "binary" thinking is wrong headed. But most of the time, those pointing the finger are putting words in the mouths of 'the accused". Right now, I have a problem with the popular concept that anyone who wants to be a transsexual is one, simply by calling themselves one. I do not believe that - i.e. you have to have some definition or the word is meaningless (not just that word, but any word).

One of my favorite all time articles by William Safire:

NY Times Magazine, 1/25/98

WANDERING WORDS

"When I use a word," said Humpty-Dumpty, " ...it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

That is the voice of the hard-edged prescriptivist, in the quotation most often cited by those of us in the usage dodge to all of you semantic drifters who let meanings go fuzzy.

And yet years later, Lewis Carroll, author of the book in which the Mother Goose character Humpty-Dumpty makes that linguistic assertion, wrote, "You know, words mean more than we mean to express when we use them".

That takes the opposite view; descriptivists, like most lexicographers, hold that words have "a range of meanings that change with the times, and can carry messages different from what the speakers choose them to mean".

I found that apparent conflict in Carroll's thinking about language in a recent article by Robert K. Merton, the great Columbia sociolo- gist, now 85 and the proud father of this year's winner of the Nobel Prize in economics.

"Here is Humpty-Dumpty speaking for the would-be exactitude of scientific denotation," writes Merton, "intent on abolishing overtones and undertones with all their interpreted ambiguities. And there is his reflective creator speaking, many years later, of the shades of meaning to be found in humanistic connotation, with its I often more evident variety of meanings we need not wittingly mean."

Barnacles attach themselves to words, as crustaceans to ships' hulls, freighting a term with meaning beyond the ship itself. Merton found a resonation of Carroll's ambiguity in the works of Henry Adams: "No one means all he says, and yet very few say all they mean," wrote the historian Adams, "for words are slippery and thought is viscous."

Pity about the choice of the last word in that quotation; Adams meant "adhesive, sticky," still the dictionary definition, but most people now associate viscous with viscosity, having to do with the flow of oil in a cold engine. Besides, viscous looks like vicious. Better to have written "words are slippery and thought is sticky."

Why sticky and not tacky, which also means "adhesive"? Because tacky has been barnacled by usage with another sense as "Low-class, Un-stylish, icky;" Not a word that means what I choose it to mean.

[slinky]

I could say "I'm a vegetarian" because I feel like I'm a vegetarian.


But I still eat steaks because I like the taste.

So am I a vegetarian?

[slinky]

I think part of the problem is that in all it's various forms, "transsexual" has become this higher cast, and CD/TV etc. is a lessor being. So, no one wants to be a lesser being, and as a result everyone wants to stake their claim to the "transsexual" title, and as a result they don't want any hard definitions of it which they may not be able to fit. Well, I'm sorry that everyone can't be a transsexual, because if everyone is, then no one is, because the word becomes bereft of any true meaning. And you know who really loses? Everyone.

[slinky]

Since everyone wants to wear the "transsexual" badge, all the other appellations for transgendered people simply become epithets. Now, if the question was "who is transgendered?" rather than "what is transsexual?", I think we'd get a more honest evaluation of the rainbow of sexual, gender identity, gender dysphoria, etc. that make up this whole "thing" we're trying to talk about. But if we only stick to "transsexual", and everyone wants to be a member of that club, the discussion ends up in the
usual name calling and finger pointing.

What we need is a wider scope, more choices,etc of terminology, and one which doesn't have a hierarchy where one term is "better" than another so people feel the want to call themselves by a different group than whatever the definitions are.

Right now, there are all sorts of rigorous or semi-rigorous definitions of what a transsexual is, but I don't think most here would want to abide by them as the guideline for persons calling themselves transsexuals. For example, one definition is a transsexual is a person who has a consistently strong desire to change one's anatomical gender. But if that definition is strictly used, non-op transgendered persons do not fall within (because they do not have a consistenly strong desire to change their anatomical gender - the desire stops at SRS). But I think the populace here wants to come up with a definition which does include non-ops. So, what do you do? I submit that the solution is NOT to throw out defining the term, and let everyone fend for themselves and allow anyone who wants to be a transsexual be one.


and now you can all throw hissy fits and say that I've said all sorts of things which I have not, and tell me I can't know because I'm not a TS, and BLAH , BLAH , BLAH. Well, guess what? I am a transsexual, because I say I'm one, so I get to have the same voice as anyone else who is a TS merely by claimng they are. SO THERE GO AHEAD, FLAME AWAY MUTHAFUCKAHS

[MacShreach]

I think part of the problem is that in all it's various forms, "transsexual" has become this higher cast, and CD/TV etc. is a lessor being. So, no one wants to be a lesser being, and as a result everyone wants to stake their claim to the "transsexual" title, and as a result they don't want any hard definitions of it which they may not be able to fit.

Don't want to break into the little chat you're having with yourself there Danny, except to say 100% co-sign.

And

It's not just the girls though. There are men here who really don't like the idea of "transsexual" at all except in so far as it assists them to deny their own homosexuality. These are the guys who shriek in horror when a girl gets SRS and who lavish praise upon obvious men in drag.

These men are very keen to have the distinctions blurred so that they can call what they are interested in (people with penises) "transsexual," and thereby reinforce the pretence that they are not gay because the penis they are interested in is not attached to another man, but a transsexual (or what they call one.) Furthermore they are insistent that not only should the object of their fetish (and that is what it is) have a penis, but that it should be a "fully functional" penis which the person possessing it can use like a man-- ie bugger them with it.

IMO this probably accounts for why so few post-op TS women come here. (And all my praise to those who do and bring a touch of reality back.)

[slinky]

Abso-fucking-lutely. Do you see how berserk guys go here when they hear that one of their favorite is going to cut off their favorite appendage? At the parties, you hear guys talk about the beautiful post-op girls and all most of them say is "what a shame" or "she made a big mistake". What BS! If that's what she wanted to do, then it's right for her.

PS None of the above should be taken to mean I think there is anything wrong with non-op TG persons.

[xfiver]

Ok - I have consulted with my panels of prefessionals and come up with the following:

1. chick with dick
2. man with pussy

I couldn't believe how much he/she made me feel at ease after a lifetime of questing! The grail was within my grasp, right at my DOCTORS OFFICE!!!!!!

HOT SCISSOR!!!!

[MacShreach]

Ok - I have consulted with my panels of prefessionals and come up with the following:

1. chick with dick
2. man with pussy



And Post-Ops?

[SarahG]

At what point is sexuality allowed to dictate gender? ....We all know the clinical description that sexuality and gender are two different things - but most of us here are sexually active and open about it - and we know the separation of gender and sexuality is mostly BS, developed by people who don't get any sex (IMHO - giggle). I believe the two are intregal to each other.

Care to elaborate on this? I don't see how they aren't separate things. Someone who is trans can be into guys, or into girls, or bi- I don't see how any of those sexual orientations are part of the fact that they are trans. I would be willing to buy that most people are probably so focused on societal influences to the point of not being open minded with themselves when it comes to who they are sexually active with or attracted to. This goes in both directions... you have guys claiming to be straight or not even entertaining the notion of rather or not they like other guys just because being gay is such a "bad thing," but you also have lesbians who are so big on the whole "I only like girls and guys are evil" thing that they wouldn't admit to having liked sex with guys even if they were formerly married and had kids...

Someone may not be open minded enough to consider the reality that they find guys appealing, for instance before they transistion especially if they are homophobic to begin with. Did transitioning then "change their orientation"? Probably not.


Well I have read alot of the technical stuff to why a men become TS's or CD's. But in my opinion its becuase a man feels better more alive as a woman. Being a man all the time is dull so pretending to be a woman is an extreme change and something new.

You really think it is just about someone feeling the need for something new in their life? I really don't agree with that. Think about it, why would someone WANT to be trans given all the problems that come with it?


I think part of the problem is that in all it's various forms, "transsexual" has become this higher cast, and CD/TV etc. is a lessor being. So, no one wants to be a lesser being, and as a result everyone wants to stake their claim to the "transsexual" title, and as a result they don't want any hard definitions of it which they may not be able to fit. Well, I'm sorry that everyone can't be a transsexual, because if everyone is, then no one is, because the word becomes bereft of any true meaning. And you know who really loses? Everyone.

THANK YOU! It is so rare for me to see someone say that. I could hug you right now, like seriously.

If someone is saying there is no difference between a cd/tv and a ts or use the terms interchangeably they're just plain using the words wrong. I think alot of it stems from confusion over how to apply labels to people in the scope of trans stuff in addition to the mindset that being a TV is a bad thing which is a mindset common even in our community.

Someone doesn't just wake up one day with GID. If they have GID, they were born with GID. It really is that simple. So that time when they're not transitioned, or part time doesn't make them TVs (someone who wears the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual reasons, stress relief, whatever)- it just means they have GID but are not transitioned (or transitioning). So the whole "choosing to become a ts" line we see so much on this board? I think to be more accurate what's going on is that we're talking about someone who has GID who is choosing to treat it. How they chose to treat it, and when, is another issue altogether but it does not dissolve the fact that they have GID.

The reason why it can be a problem to use CD to describe anyone who is part time, is not everyone who is part time is a TV and the term CD is used so interchangeably with TV that you can't use CD as an accurate term for describing periodic change in the gender of one's clothing. This inaccuracy is made worse by the fact that most people don't like the term transvestite and opt to use the term cross dresser in its place, we see far more people claiming to be a cross dresser then we see people claiming to be a transvestite even when these people acknowledge that they are not TS in any way.


It's not just the girls though. There are men here who really don't like the idea of "transsexual" at all except in so far as it assists them to deny their own homosexuality. These are the guys who shriek in horror when a girl gets SRS and who lavish praise upon obvious men in drag.

EXACTLY. I have two examples- the one I use all the time about the select guys out there who would hit on ANYTHING that has:
1- cock
1- skirt, dress, or panties on

You're not gonna convince me you're a straight guy who likes ts girls if you're running over to the Scottish games to hit on anyone with a beard & a kilt. Yes this is an extreme example.

Less extreme... anyone remember the Club Kid thread? I get that some people who are club kids may have GID, I get that alot of the original "club kids" were trans.... but just because a guy might pass or look nice as a girl while dressed up does not make them TS. Anyone who isn't far into puberty can pass as either sex if they changed key things about their appearance, so does that mean that a 10 year old boy is really a girl or a tgirl if he dresses up as one for Halloween trick or treating (while managing to pass)? NO. The club kid thing is no different, if you have a fad in part of the gay community where young guys go out dressed as flashy club kids, that does not make them suddenly trans... they're guys, they are going to go home and at some point take off their make up and take a shower, go to sleep, and not have bodies like GID patients who are treating their condition.

Someone who has GID (but does not know about the condition for various reasons) may go into the realm of club kid culture, CD/TV groups, etc while trying to find their way- but they still have GID, and once they realize what GID/TS is- they leave those communities and start addressing their GID/TS issues... because they know they are different and know these things "aren't the same"

[NeoXtrim]

i think it doesn't count how transexuals are categorized by others

the only thing that counts is to define your own identity

i know in reality exists a high discrimination by ignorance, fear and prejudices - but humanity had to pass so many many discriminations in history, from the greeks and the "barbarians" to the destruction of indigenous population in north and south america, paired with slavery of the "apes" (oh no sorry... at this time the pope declared they are humans... now they were missionable)
in my opinion the good effect of globalisation is the mixture of cultures and the reduction of prejudices

the first time i came in contact with queer theory was at a course of ethnology called "civilised bodies, perverted realities" (free translation ;))
we heared about the different categories of transgenderism, transsexuality and intersexuality (but homosexuality, Body Dysmorphic Disorder etc.)
we manifested that it was very hard to break through our bipolar gendersystem
it starts with how to speak to a transsexual or at the extreme situation to a intersexual person
he? she? (it?) - do we discriminate even by calling a person by a gender? we could avoid this with using the name of the person at first - so we would come back to the individual identity of the person

we even had a discussion if using "der Mensch" (german) = "the man", "the human" is a primary discrimination for non-male people
these theories partially are going back to foucault's theory of sexuality and power

i know, too, that it is very hard to negate the stereotyped thinking
the reality is much too complex to think simple

just one other matter: i was shocked a bit when i heared about the discrimination of the TS-scene by the lesbian and gay movement
they fought for their rights for decades but they succeed just because they disassociated from the TS-"freaks"
in my eyes they criticised something they did to others, too... how hypocritical

for me only the person counts. whether colour, religion, sex, gender, nationality or social class
assholes you can find in everywere, but do-gooder, too

[thx1138]

TS = someone exposed to a lot of nasty stuff whilst in Mother's womb.

[BrendaQG]

I would just say a transsexual is a person who is physically one sex but mentally has the gender expression of the other sex.

@Sara There does seem to be some correlation between a person sexual preference and their gender presentation. I would not say they are the same things. They are just statistically related. (i.e. every study that compares homosexual men's brains and heterosexual womens brains finds some deep structural and functional similarities).

[SarahG]

I would just say a transsexual is a person who is physically one sex but mentally has the gender expression of the other sex.

@Sara There does seem to be some correlation between a person sexual preference and their gender presentation. I would not say they are the same things. They are just statistically related. (i.e. every study that compares homosexual men's brains and heterosexual womens brains finds some deep structural and functional similarities).

Given the part I put in bold, I'd say we agree.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

Being the straight, gung-ho, testosterone overdosed, war mongering dude I am, I don't think I could honestly define "transexual' in a manner that would give the community due justice. I do, personally, appreciate the delimna an individual faces, when the realization surfaces that one isn't in the right body. There are so many issues that now must be dealt with once that occurs, mental and emotional confusion, parental and societal acceptance, unbelievable medical/surgical expense and, I'm sure, a myriad of other issues I haven't touched. I have no concept of the pain and anguish endured, which for far too many, leads to abusive drug use, which saddens me.

I appreciate all of you that have taken this hard, long and expensive road. I align with your 'difference' from the mainstream. You are, from the heart, some of my very favorite peeps.

God Bless Aou All,
Corvettedude

[andyuk]

Abso-fucking-lutely. Do you see how berserk guys go here when they hear that one of their favorite is going to cut off their favorite appendage? At the parties, you hear guys talk about the beautiful post-op girls and all most of them say is "what a shame" or "she made a big mistake". What BS! If that's what she wanted to do, then it's right for her.

PS None of the above should be taken to mean I think there is anything wrong with non-op TG persons.

i agree,what differance should it make if the girl has a dick or a pussy?
jeez,if i was dating a ts,i would support her in any way i could.

[MacShreach]

You're not gonna convince me you're a straight guy who likes ts girls if you're running over to the Scottish games to hit on anyone with a beard & a kilt.


Sorry, I have a beard and I regularly wear a kilt. What exactly do you mean?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Transexualism is identifying as the opposite gender you were born. You don't question it, you just know. Just as any woman would know she is a woman or any man would know he is a man.

Being a transexual starts in the brain. They have done many studies on a transexual's brain compared to the sex they felt like. And saw many similarities not only in weight and size but the parts they used.

People see it at face value, that being a transexual is just about surgery. Yes many do get surgeries. To match our outsides with our insides, but not every transexual yearns for this and just does hormone treatments.

I think it's ridiculous on Danny's part to suggest that you are only a transexual if you eventually go through with the surgery. There are tons of transexuals that travel over seas every day, that have this same belief. HOWEVER their belief is that if they do the post op surgery it will fix everything. How society views them and how they feel about themselves. This hope they have, soon deteriates when they see that society doesn't treat them differently. They don't feel the way they thought they would about themselves. They eventually commit suicide. NOW PLEASE do not take that out of CONTEXT! I am not saying ever transexual that goes through with the surgery feels this way, but there are many that do not go through with the RIGHT STEPS that are set there for a reason and rush off and do it.

There is so much to being a transexual than just surgery. There is years of counseling, years of hormones, living and working as your desired gender and coping with how people treat you and the way your family acts towards you. I doubt highly that any of these woman or men believe otherwise that they aren't transexuals.

Again let me reliterate SURGERY is PART of being a transexual. Not the whole part. And until you walk a mile in one of our shoes, how dare you put prejudgement on transexualism just because you are ATTRACTED to one or have DATED one. THAT'S ONE CASE, there are many cases of transexualism. Different views, different thoughts. We are PEOPLE just like you. Not every man and woman agree on what makes a man and what makes a woman. So stop trying to package us in a neat little box that SUITS YOUR IDEAS.


P.S. It has even been said that transexualism is genetic. There are twins that are transexuals. They say it also happens when you are in your mothers womb either a rush of estrogen or a rush of testorone goes to the brain determining how you'll feel as you grow older. Also what about hermaphrodites, that are corrected, but yet they don't feel like the sex they were given?

Much love


Kelly

[Danielle Foxxx]

www.the3rdgender.com

The 3rd Gender, human evolution

You know in India Tandras are considered blessed by the gods?

[TrueBeauty TS]

I could say "I'm a vegetarian" because I feel like I'm a vegetarian.


But I still eat steaks because I like the taste.

So am I a vegetarian?



Son of a B*tch.... you stole my line. LOL


:wink:



.

[SarahG]

You're not gonna convince me you're a straight guy who likes ts girls if you're running over to the Scottish games to hit on anyone with a beard & a kilt.


Sorry, I have a beard and I regularly wear a kilt. What exactly do you mean?

What I mean is, there are people who are so (for lack of a better term) obsessed with the cock that they find virtually anything in a skirt or a dress with a cock to be attractive, even if the person is clearly not trans in anyway.

This isn't a rip on bearded people in kilts, its an extreme take on people who are so cock-happy that they don't know/care the difference between a bearded guy with a kilt and a TS girl.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I believe that being a transsexual is instinctual. My earliest memory is of a conflict with my mom about the things I wasn't going to be able to do in life because I was a "boy". But I remember seeing a TS on talkshow when I was 8, and thinking, "Oh, that's what I am..." I would agree on this, Instinctual, I like that

[MrsKellyPierce]

bump

[SexyMagdi]

Well I have read alot of the technical stuff to why a men become TS's or CD's. But in my opinion its becuase a man feels better more alive as a woman. Being a man all the time is dull so pretending to be a woman is an extreme change and something new.


You really think it is just about someone feeling the need for something new in their life? I really don't agree with that. Think about it, why would someone WANT to be trans given all the problems that come with it?

Well thats my opinion Im not entirely sure. But thats the way I feel and I guess when I man wants to become a TS thats all that matters that he is happy with his decision.