Will TG's ever be accepted...

[JamesHunt]

.. in society??? I just love pre-op tg's, they are more natural than gg's in my opinion. But there is a barrier between us... the tg's have probs with this, and we, as guys have probs with this, is there a solution???

[Nowhere]

I know this might get some people angry, but not as long as they let themselves be exploited as 'freaks on parade' on shows like Springer and Maury they will never be accepted.

And, yes, girls, it's quite clear that you might get more dates as a result of doing such a thing, but have you ever put thought into the fact that you likely wouldn't have to do that, at all, had your rights been protected?

So, now this ENDA bill is coming about, and you're completely excluded, since the perception of TGs in society is predominantly known through those shows, where you're exploited as something to be seen as far less than human.

I know i'm only stating my opinion, but I believe you're not just harming yourself every time you do that. You're harming the future for EVERY TG woman born in this country, because they will remain unprotected, and subject to the horrors of losing everything and having really only one sure fire way to support themselves.

Please reconsider doing this in the future.

It's not right, for you, your sisters and especially all of those TG women whose parents will throw them out of their home with just the clothes on her back when she admits to them what she truly is, on the inside.

You are ruining their chance for survival by what you do.

I don't judge people by much.

I don't think inherently prostitution is bad. I don't think inherently drug use (within reason) is bad. I don't think gambling or promiscuity (outside of a relationship) is bad.

Hell, I don't really think anything is wrong provided that no one is harmed as a consequence of their actions.

But, people are harmed as a consequence of this, severely, and I feel this just needs to be said.

[Jericho]

I know this might get some people angry, but not as long as they let themselves be exploited as 'freaks on parade' on shows like Springer and Maury they will never be accepted.

It's a two edged sword, init.
While there is the "Freak Show" aspect of it, it can also do some good.
It gets in peoples faces, making people more aware of TS' and, some kid, out in the boonies somewhere finds out that they're not alone. There are other people like them out there, who went through just the same things they're going through. That's gotta be a good thing, surely?

[Legend]

Who cares about society and the judgemental people that inhabit it,as long as they accept themselve,self acceptance is what truly matters.

[lust4ts]

It's more likely to happen in the Countries and Continents that have a larger TS community, after all familiarity breeds understanding and something or in this case a particular type of person that you don't often see or have be confronted with will often to lead to that type of person being feared or pushed into obscurity.

Much like the fact that many places that have the worst racism problems and prejudice people, the actual minority population they are acting out against is either low or non existent.

It will only start to happen as more and more people encounter Transgender persons face to face in ever day life. Then they will not see them as a stereo type or freak but as a human being, just the same as anyone else.

[SexyMagdi]

Hmm I dont think so. I believe more and more each day TG's are becoming part of our society that without them a big piece of life is missing.

[El Nino]

Not in Bush's America...

[lust4ts]

Hmm I dont think so. I believe more and more each day TG's are becoming part of our society that without them a big piece of life is missing.

That is my point, I am from the UK and I know for a fact it will take a long time for them to be accepted here because people never come across them so they only see them as a stereo type "A girl with a cock" or "a Bitch that used to be a dude" without interacting with them face to face and on a personal level they will never have the chance to gage them as simple human beings.

Where I live we have no TS community and I guarantee if I was to mention Transsexuals to many of the people, even in my street I would be met with something similar to one of the above quotes, it is a shame but I am being honest. As I said a lack of knowledge or understanding of something or someone just causes fear, it’s a natural human reaction. Many peoples closed minds can not deal with the issue of what a Transgender person is, and how they trully view them so they respond with ridicule because it is easier than challenging their imbedded prejudices that society has hammered into them for years.

So yes in some parts of America I am sure that people are seeing for themselves that Transsexuals are just normal everyday people more and more with each day that passes, we unfortanetely have a lot further to go before our minds can be opened to such enlightenment.

[orbea847]

This is kind of on this topic. I think where society have more pro dominate gender roles they will never really accept transgendered or intersex.

I find it interesting the closer you get to the equator gender roles seem to be more interchangeable and acceptable by society.

For example in more northern counties where gender roles are more establish the less you see of transgendered members but closer you get to the equator ie Brazil, Mexico, India etc you see more of blur of gender.

Just my thoughts

[lust4ts]

This is kind of on this topic. I think where society have more pro dominate gender roles they will never really accept transgendered or intersex.

I find it interesting the closer you get to the equator gender roles seem to be more interchangeable and acceptable by society.

For example in more northern counties where gender roles are more establish the less you see of transgendered members but closer you get to the equator ie Brazil, Mexico, India etc you see more of blur of gender.

Just my thoughts

I'm not sure about that, in India the Intersexed community is much maligned and often in fear of their life's. Mexico is very macho as a country and society and Brazil comes back to what I was saying about familiarity, much like Thailand. The more people meet Transgender people on a personal level they realise they are no different to anyone else on the inside.

No different to a town or village that only has say a few black people, it is likely those black people will be targeted simply for being different. As I said a lack of familiarity causes prejudice all over the world, the cases and people involved vary but the reasons often route from this very same problem.

[DJ_Asia]

It depends on from what country one is seeking acceptance.Thais are very accepting of their ladyboys.It isnt uncommon at all to see a ladyboy hanging out with GG's at social gatherings,working in mainstream jobs etc,etc..Really the only time I've ever seen or heard any negativity directed towards a girl here was from some homophobic soccer goon from Europe,who called one of my models "Katoey"

Its worth noting,and it doesnt stray far from what another already posted earlier about girls making a sideshow of themselves in the States,the Thai girls for the most part do not try to stand out or look,act or portray themselves differently then your standard Thai GG.

In fact the way that I can spot the ladyboys here is quite ironic.I simply look for the prettiest girls with the largest tits and it works everytime.

[DJ_Asia]

TS have no more responsibility to uphold some standard than GG's do. That we can now even compete in the worlds of porn and escorting is actually a good thing if it breaks the ice for us and people fear us less. Those talk shows make HUMAN BEINGS look silly, so you can't blame TS for doing them and making a buck any more than you can blame anyone else. Our status is determined by our struggle to feel comfortable in our own skin, and not by who we want to have sex with. And in some ways, there's not a lot of love lost between us and the gay community anyway. So many gay people harshly reject us and/or look down upon us that I personally have no desire to included in their superficial little rainbow pride culture anyway. Drag is only a small part of gay culture and is very marginalized, if not barely tolerated, by most gay men. We really have no true sense of community, and maybe we don't need it. I'm not really sure. Personally, I feel that educating people about what we are is better for us in the long run. Because we really are everywhere, and the world will simply have to get used to us sooner or later just the same.

You raise some valid points.However I have witnessed first hand thousands of times in the general population,and quite frankly here on this board as well,men who display severe "cockphopia".
Straight men oohing and drooling over some hot girl,until you reveal the fact that said woman is sporting a penis...and then wow...the tables turn.
Simply put most men feel threatened by a penis and as long as that attitude persists acceptance in general will not come anytime soon.

[BrendaQG]

TV shows have almost nothing to do with weather or not we will be accepted. People just need to learn to accept others. Without wanting to change or control them.

[dan_drade]

I know this might get some people angry, but not as long as they let themselves be exploited as 'freaks on parade' on shows like Springer and Maury they will never be accepted.


Come on now. The thought that TG's on shows like Jerry Springer and Maury has nothing at all to do with TG's being accepted in society. After all there are many other people that are on those shows as well, and they dont have that problem.

Only time and education will bring acceptance to the TG community. Hopefully the enda bill will be passed and although the TG community was unfortunately written out of this bill, at least it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully the TG community will get a bill on the next go round. But eventually all GLBT people will have the rights that they should have always had.

Who knows, maybe some of our wonderful toe tapping, money paying, drug buying, cock sucking, asshole sucking, religion preaching, right wing polititians that have been outed in the last few years for their outrageous homosexual behaviors will stand up and preach what they practice. They porbably won't, but if any of them are truly willing to stand up for what their true feelings are. That would be a great help to that LGBT community.

Anyway, eventually there will be equal rights for everyone, it will just take time. IMHO anyway.

[Bee]

:arrow: self acceptance!

[dan_drade]

:arrow: self acceptance!

Not Good Enough

[Bee]

Not Good Enough[/quote]

uhmm..Okay... :(

[dan_drade]

Not Good Enough

uhmm..Okay... :([/quote]

J/K bro

[Nowhere]

TS have no more responsibility to uphold some standard than GG's do. That we can now even compete in the worlds of porn and escorting is actually a good thing if it breaks the ice for us and people fear us less. Those talk shows make HUMAN BEINGS look silly, so you can't blame TS for doing them and making a buck any more than you can blame anyone else. Our status is determined by our struggle to feel comfortable in our own skin, and not by who we want to have sex with. And in some ways, there's not a lot of love lost between us and the gay community anyway. So many gay people harshly reject us and/or look down upon us that I personally have no desire to included in their superficial little rainbow pride culture anyway. Drag is only a small part of gay culture and is very marginalized, if not barely tolerated, by most gay men. We really have no true sense of community, and maybe we don't need it. I'm not really sure. Personally, I feel that educating people about what we are is better for us in the long run. Because we really are everywhere, and the world will simply have to get used to us sooner or later just the same.

1. I believe it is ignorant to believe you have no more responsibility to uphold a public perception than GG's. A 'circus freak' image has been cast, which has, in turn, not only fundamentally allowing discrimination to be deemed acceptable, across the board, but now it's being set into law. Things must be made better, and GG's have the rights that you do not. So, you are responsible to work for those rights (or at least, not work against them)

2. If ANYONE needs rights from ENDA, it's you girls. And, as I said, it seems that a quick buck and some immediate validation seems more important to a number of you on that. And, I think that's severely damaging, not only to yourselves, but girls in the future who will be thrown on the street by their families, only to find out that no one will hire them for even the most basic job.

3. You are correct that educating people about what you are is better for you in the long run. The OPPOSITE of that is done through circus rings of Springer and Maury. You educate them on what you are not about, not about your struggle. Not how you are human beings like the rest of everyone. It shows how you are different, how you love being the 'freak on display' and are ASKING to be treated like that by voluntarily showing up there.

It is only recently where shows like 'Transgeneration' and more balanced mini-documentaries have come about on 20/20 and the like showing you girls in the truth of what you have to go through.

But, 100x, hell, maybe 1000x more media exposure in the public eye has and is continued to be done in the 'freak show' angle as i'm mentioning here. And, it's still happening because people are looking too much in the short-term and all for the quick buck.

Don't you think that if hundreds of stories of girls being tossed out on their own, not being able to be hired by anyone, and being forced to do whatever to survive, or worse, dying would make things a million times better than what's being done on those shows, right now?

They don't know any struggle. They don't know the hell most of you go through. They just know their mind sees female and 'oops' they were wrong (which, btw, makes them look as you as less than a woman, making it even worse). There's nothing postive, and it consistantly makes you be seen as not only less than woman, but less than human.

Everyone's got their own life to live, and it's your own choice, but I think this is a fundamental reason why things are still so bad now, and I just have to say it.

P.S. I am only saying this out of concern, not judgment. I just see a negative situation and wish it was better, for all of you. :)

[Shining Star]

" You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time".

In my mis-spent youth, ran around insisting everyone acknowledge I was a "woman" and wanted things my way. Looking back can see why so many say youth is wasted on the young, and how much energy was mis-directed. Now aside from my passport, drivers license and other things or situations where it is insisted upon a sex be declared, I simply do not care what people think. Long as they don't get in my way/interfere with me or mine, you can call me anything you want and stare all you like. If I truly cared what people thought about and or felt about my lifestyle, would have crawled into my grave around high school, and pulled the lid shut.

Just as there are people who are never going to like or accept blacks, gays, asians, or whatever person is different from them, people aren't going to ever totally accept transgendered persons. Many just think it is "crazy" or "sick" for anyone to wish to change their gender. As with many, have had to sit some men down for "the talk", only to have a person who just minutes before looked at you as the most beautiful creature on earth, now regard you as a cross between the Bog Monster and a rabid dog. Either way, repugnance now best describes how they now feel and they cannot get away fast enough. Happily for Moi, that feeling has never exteneded to physical violence, but it does happen elsewhere in the community.

Even in parts of the country labeled "gay friendly" such as New York, California and elsewhere you will find people who don't like gays or transgendered persons.

Being as all this may, the best and only way transgendered persons are going to make strides in acceptance, is to take the same page gays took from the civil rights movement. Blacks not only moved into formerly all white domains and demanded their rights, they started an education campaign to show "white" America, they were the same as everyone else. In other words, they worked, paid their taxes, raised their children, and were just the same productive members of society as anyone else. This is the same tack gays have used with "gay marriage". Just as the only thing "different" about blacks was mainly the colour of their skin, gays put out the message "hey, we work/are professionals, raise our children, etc.... and are just like you in most areas of our lives. By and large this is working, slowly but it is working.

Problem with the transgender community is that it is all over the place, with different segments having different needs. A white educated TS of the professional class, probably has different needs that a minority TS, bounced from foster home to foster home until she finally maxes out of the system, and is turned out into the world live the best way she knows now.

One problem is that there are transgendered persons who are passing happily in society, have good or at least decent employment, etc and don't want to rock the boat. They look out and see what they consider the sorrid world of "the trannie scene" with it's focus on sex and escorting and want to be as far away as possible. Guilt by associaton? Perhaps, but just as there were and are gays who are happy being gay, don't believe in having it shouted from the house-tops and certianly do not get involved with the circut party, crystal meth, free sex side of the gay scene. These people see the best way for advancement is to work with the "system" for change. Gay Republicans comes to mind.

IMHO another thing holding back trannies is the lack of a large parental support network, like we see with gays and lesbians. Many parents of gays and lesbians, fight just as hard for their children's "rights", as they fought for them to, say get into the right school, or a place on the football team. The ante has been upped in that sphere now that gays and lesbians are having children, giving their parents something that only a decade ago was not really considered, grandchildren. Think about it: the vice president of the United States, posed in an official announcement picture for his lesbian daughter's child. That speaks volumes about where gays and lesbians have gone and arrived over the past decade or so.

Am not saying there are not parents of transgendered persons who are not proud of them and supportive, but have not seen it rise to the level of gays.

Sex work plays a role in everything about the transgendered community. Sad but most see the TS world and one of escorts and "freaks", which leaves those trying to fight for equal rights very little wiggle room. Amercians by and large simply do not like prostitutes. You can stand on your head and talk till you are blue about how "society" and or situations forced you into the life, but it won't make that much difference with the majority.

Candis Cayne's recent break through in some ways is a double edged sword for the TS community. On the one hand it shows a TS girl in a positive light, and what can be done if one works hard, it also shows that TS girls can get on in life without being involved with the "life"

Personally think the future is going to go something like this: one culture of transgendered persons who pass and or at least function in main society, that will continue going on about their lives; and the other side of the "tracks", with girls who work and or lack the social skills, etc to get on in the former category.

[TsVanessa69]

its like with anything, the more they see us and interact with us, then eventually it will happen. We live normal lives and in most cases it doesn't even matter. I have seen a difference from when I was a teen to now, much difference. It will take some time, and there will always be ignorant people, but its coming!

[foolish99]

I hope that Nicole and Vanessa are right but I fear that they are not.

There is increased visibility of transsexuals these days, but I dont know that this translates to increased acceptance.

And I do NOT think that transsexuals and homosexuals/lesbians/bisexuals are natural allies --- I havent really thought the differences all the way through --- but I think that there are enough tensions/disagreements/issues/prejudices among the groups to make it very difficult to pursue a common agenda. And I think that transsexuals do not really benefit from direct association with homosexuals in terms of pursuing political rights --- I think that there is a risk that the public will perceive transsexuals as just one 'flavor' of homosexual, and a particularly depraved and alien one at that.

I think that transsexuals need and deserve and are entiteld to much greater respect and acceptance in society --- but I am pessimistic that there is any real progress in that direction and I have no great ideas about how to generate that progress.

[justatransgirl]

Some amazingly well thought out comments. Thank you all.

There is currently a double standard in TG "society." There is the (usually older) TS who transitions on the job in a career, often has (sometimes loses) a family, home, etc. Some have successful transitions, some do not. But most have satisfactory incomes, own homes, have retirement, etc.

Then there is the other 50%, mostly younger TS's who by choice or circumstance end up in sex work, often have little education and no job skills to enable them to earn a living wage. Often they turn to drugs to ease their pain and enter into a downward spiral of sex, drugs, jail until they die in the gutter and we all forget them a day later. Another sad life lost to indifference.

The concern and activism of members of this site is a perfect example of how the two worlds can meet. There are so many educated girls on this site who are bridging the gap between the extremes of sex work and mainstream and I believe in time we will find acceptence.

But there's a long way to go.

I know lots of guys, some who are rather wealthy, several who will fly me to meet them when they travel on business and pay a lot of money for my company. But none who will introduce me to their friends (mostly because they are married). Yet in our daily life we live mainstream, and seem of the surface anyway to be accepted. Yeah, there are some wispers at the yacht club (yes we belong to a yacht club) but they are getting used to the idea.

And Jessica and I are going to start racing our boat again next summer and - look out mainstream - the trannies are coming to the party. I think that's the kind of thing that will move us into the mainstream as an accepted community.

But I think there's a long way to go and there are many closed minded religious extreme sorts who will never open their minds and will continue to see it as their life's mission to deny us basic human rights. But they are losing ground.

ENDA is likely to destroy the trans and gay rights movement. It's been 40 YEARS since TS folk led the riots at Stonewall and began the GLBT civil rights movement - yet there has still never been a single piece of federal legislation passed to protect us. Even the Matt Shepard hate crimes bill will probably be killed as a result ofa single BACKSTABBING congressman.

That's just sad - and while on one hand it makes me want to fight harder, on the other I just want to say fuck it - make as much money as I can and get out, or sometimes it makes me just want to kill myself and solve the ache.

But then I look at someone like that FAT ASS Congresman Barney Frank (below) I think how dare that fat son of a bitch faggot destroy MY RIGHTS to live in work in a country I served as an airborne paratrooper. That's when I think we need to all stand together and raise hell until we are heard.

Sorry, sometimes I go "off..." I'm fine now... let's go have sex!

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

[Nowhere]

TS have no more responsibility to uphold some standard than GG's do. That we can now even compete in the worlds of porn and escorting is actually a good thing if it breaks the ice for us and people fear us less. Those talk shows make HUMAN BEINGS look silly, so you can't blame TS for doing them and making a buck any more than you can blame anyone else. Our status is determined by our struggle to feel comfortable in our own skin, and not by who we want to have sex with. And in some ways, there's not a lot of love lost between us and the gay community anyway. So many gay people harshly reject us and/or look down upon us that I personally have no desire to included in their superficial little rainbow pride culture anyway. Drag is only a small part of gay culture and is very marginalized, if not barely tolerated, by most gay men. We really have no true sense of community, and maybe we don't need it. I'm not really sure. Personally, I feel that educating people about what we are is better for us in the long run. Because we really are everywhere, and the world will simply have to get used to us sooner or later just the same.

1. I believe it is ignorant to believe you have no more responsibility to uphold a public perception than GG's. A 'circus freak' image has been cast, which has, in turn, not only fundamentally allowing discrimination to be deemed acceptable, across the board, but now it's being set into law. Things must be made better, and GG's have the rights that you do not. So, you are responsible to work for those rights (or at least, not work against them)

2. If ANYONE needs rights from ENDA, it's you girls. And, as I said, it seems that a quick buck and some immediate validation seems more important to a number of you on that. And, I think that's severely damaging, not only to yourselves, but girls in the future who will be thrown on the street by their families, only to find out that no one will hire them for even the most basic job.

3. You are correct that educating people about what you are is better for you in the long run. The OPPOSITE of that is done through circus rings of Springer and Maury. You educate them on what you are not about, not about your struggle. Not how you are human beings like the rest of everyone. It shows how you are different, how you love being the 'freak on display' and are ASKING to be treated like that by voluntarily showing up there.

It is only recently where shows like 'Transgeneration' and more balanced mini-documentaries have come about on 20/20 and the like showing you girls in the truth of what you have to go through.

But, 100x, hell, maybe 1000x more media exposure in the public eye has and is continued to be done in the 'freak show' angle as i'm mentioning here. And, it's still happening because people are looking too much in the short-term and all for the quick buck.

Don't you think that if hundreds of stories of girls being tossed out on their own, not being able to be hired by anyone, and being forced to do whatever to survive, or worse, dying would make things a million times better than what's being done on those shows, right now?

They don't know any struggle. They don't know the hell most of you go through. They just know their mind sees female and 'oops' they were wrong (which, btw, makes them look as you as less than a woman, making it even worse). There's nothing postive, and it consistantly makes you be seen as not only less than woman, but less than human.

Everyone's got their own life to live, and it's your own choice, but I think this is a fundamental reason why things are still so bad now, and I just have to say it.

P.S. I am only saying this out of concern, not judgment. I just see a negative situation and wish it was better, for all of you. :)Do black people have a bigger responsibility to prove anything because of OJ's behavior or because of the messages in gangsta rap? The way I see it, you think we need to be TS Uncle Toms. Yet you are here where TS porn is the rule and not the exception. So are YOU part of the problem too?

Whatever image you believe has been cast, most people look at the Springer Show for what it is; a joke.

While that still doesn't change the fact that it's a negative, you do have a point in terms of the burden of responsibility.

And, you are absolutely correct with my presence being here as being part of the problem, not the solution.

From that, I have no ground to stand on.

Fair enough.

I think this comes around full circle, really, in that the LGBT umbrella isn't good for you girls, since the LGB community really don't care much about you and does it more out of some form of queer political correctness.

Maybe the 'T' needs to dissasociate itself from the LGB?

Maybe there needs to be some sort of 'parental support network' as someone said above?

If your rights were being cared for, by someone (obviously the gay community is not), then perception wouldn't matter.

I've got to think about this more.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/tea14x3.jpg


:popcorn

[Shining Star]

Think it is important to address just what sort of "acceptance" the original poster means.

In terms of ordinary life, there are trannies, just as there are gays, lesbians, blacks, and other minorities happily going about their lives accepted by their local communities. These same persons can also have a good support network of family, friends or co-workers, and so forth which helps considerably. Even within the black and Latino community, places one hears that are supposedly down right hostile to gays, and trannies have and always had a gay,lesbian, and even trannie presence, while it may not have been welcome everywhere, they still are accepted enough to get on with their lives.

By and large, unless one is going to run for nationwide elected office, or perhaps run a Fortune 500 company, we all tend to live our lives on local basis, excluding vacations and such, so it is within that realm acceptance mostly comes into play. Trannies just as gays have been elected to local offices in some American communities, so one can make a pretty good assumption that a majority of persons within that community have no problems with TSs.

People by and large tend to see what they look for; to if one is engaged in the extreme ends of a particular community and or "other" things, it just gives the majority reason to dismiss you as "them". OTHO, as has been proven by countless civil rights struggles, proving one is not a threat to society order and conforming with the majority does have benefits. Like it or not, that is how most societies are run, people who do what society expects of them then to be included, versus those who do not, and are excluded.

Too many TSs these days seem to want their cake and eat it as well. Running around in broad daylight looking like a Playboy centrefold in search of a photo shoot, conducting their "business" in loud and obvious manner, and wonder why main stream society at large gives them a wide berth. People out there are working all hours god gives to make ends meet, and get REALLY annoyed when they see or hear of any sex worker living in their area/building pulling in several thousands per week, not paying a penny in taxes and sitting at home all day rubbing their noses in it.

If that is the lifestyle people want to lead, then it shouldn't come as a surprise main stream avoids them like the plague. However, as I've often stated, know of TSs both pre and post who range from nurses, to flight attendants, to lawyers to sanitation men (you've not lived until you've seen a "TS" sanitation person with an obvious beard line, and an equally obvious C cup busting out of her uniform). Still, my girl is out there doing her thing, and considering what she must have gone through and continues to go through, I give her major props.

As the song goes, you can't make people love you, but you can give them less reasons to dislike or even hate you. Yes I am a TS, but what else have they got? I work, pay my taxes, am polite and work hard at being a contributing member of society.

As for gays helping trannies, forget it, at least in the United States. That boat is leaving the dock and only a limited number of trannies, if any have been invited on board. Gays have clearly seen their best chances at winning over the majority is by dropping the "less desirable" elements of the culture. From the circuit party, roid enhanced, sex all night gay male, to trannies, are all going by the boards. The new image is the clean cut, average American male or woman, monogamously coupled (with or with out a few children), property owning, professional who poses no threats to the moral order. Just as gays stood at the ropes deciding which minorities (including trannies), would enter their hollowed clubs and discos, the same process is weeding out anyone in the community that could rock the boat and derail "progress".

[JamesHunt]

thanx 4 the posts people, your replies are appreciated.