BREAKING: 'Transgender' excluded from ENDA

[Ashley]

http://www.bilerico.com/2007/09/guest_post_on_enda_from_congressman_fran.php

Maybe you think this doesn't effect you, but if you're trans you should be absolutely pissed right now.

Basically...

Due to a lack of votes, representative Barney Frank decided to split the once comprehensive equal rights bill into two distinct parts.

The ENDA bill (Employment NonDiscrimination Act) without trans-inclusion will be marked up by the chamber’s Education and Labor Committee next Tuesday so that it can be sent it to the House floor for a vote.

The other one, GENDA if you will, will move on a separate track and will be most certainly killed.

...

This is terrible.

It would be 2-5 years before the Congress would be able to pass a trans-inclusive ENDA, but it will be decades before a transgender-only bill will pass.

Even in San Francisco, only 25% of transgender people have full-time jobs. Our GLB "allies" have betrayed us.

[Ashley]

...Oh and even after taking out trans protection it will still be called the "Employment Non-Discrimination Act". Cause, ya know, trans people aren't real people, so when you fire them for being a tranny it's not real discrimination.

[Ashley]

CymruInstinct:

Yeah. It sells out our friends so a select few can reap the rewards.

The fact still remains:

Transgender people are the ones in MOST need of protection. Many, if not most, Fortune 500 companies already cover sexual orientation in their employment policies.

This person said it best:

The gay rights movement was founded by the transgender community - the "impersonators" from Compton's and the "drag queens" from Stonewall - not the cissexual gay men and women who will reap benefit from the revised ENDA. Make no mistake, the transgender community wants these men and women to receive these benefits. They are our family, our brothers and our sisters. We have fought for their concerns and their rights as fiercely as we have fought for our own. We don't, however, want to be excluded from these benefits at the same time they receive them. After all, what are we? Subhuman? Less deserving of employment or self respect? What have we been fighting for if not basic human rights? What do we want that is more elaborate than the right to exist with common dignity?

:(

[Shining Star]

Never really liked Barney Frank, and not that this is all his idea, it is yet another example of how the gay agenda, especially the upper classes of white gay Americans are intent on getting theirs even if they have to let others go by the wayside.


Here is my personal take on this "movement":

Since this country was founded, white males, in particular WASP males have be top dogs. However once they come out as homosexual, they drop down in the rankings and join the rest of us working in the fields, always longing to get back into the big house where they "belong".

If you are the average minority gay person, you have more problems than worrying about weather or not you and your partner can legally marry and all that entails (children, legal transfer of property, tax, immigration benefits and the whole other bag of tricks). However the white gay male who goes to Yale or Harvard, and wants to be a partner at a white shoe law firm may run into some problems. They cannot put him off because of his education,background or any of the other "things", because he is "one of them", except he is gay. So slowly we have all these laws turning sexual preference into a protected class because gays claim it is just like when blacks fought for civil rights as they cannot "help" what they are. Never mind homosexuality was removed from being a mental disease over 30 or so years ago now, and is called a "preference".

Anywho, this sort of thing has played out in many states where gay rights bills passed, including New York State. Gays fought there for over 20 years to get a bill passed into law, and when it came down to getting something passed into law that did NOT include transgender, the gay power brokers stated the same thing: "oh it's no problem, we can add transgender at a later date". Well it has been several years and somehow that has not happened. I suspect if this Federal bill ever passes, the results will be the same.

It is no secret many gays, especially those in certian areas of that society do not like nor really care for anything remotely transgender. This was true back in the 1980's and has not changed that much.

Suspect the gays will get their law, if not now then when the next president comes in 2009. The rest of us will be left out in the cold, once again.

[BrendaQG]

:x

Gay's like Frank are almost as bad of an enemy as the religious right.

Looks like to get a fair shake I may have to go to a foreighn country. The USA is at it's base still in the stone age when it comes to transsexuality.

But gays and religious people are not the only ones to blame.

I BLAME THE TRANSGENDERED ACTIVIST! THEY HAVE MADE A WORSE IMPRESSION ON THE PUBLIC MIND THAN ALL THE STREET WALKERS AND EROS HUSTLERS COMBINED! I mean they have gone out of their way to protray a positive media image. They have done their best to make all media visible transsexuals are doctors and lawyers, and race car drivers, whith fat tax exempt 401k's and nice houses. While at the same time being presentationally inept! What has it got us? A country that resents transsexuals so much that we are the most maligned minority. People who's image is one of power privilage and self determined choice. A image that makes the question of transsexual employment one of keeping suits from getting fired instead of young people scratching to survive.

To the activist I will say bravo and thanks. If I get beat to death by a john, because I cannot get a good job due to discrimination, I know he will get 3 consecutive life sentences instead of two. :roll:

[SarahG]

I would think that the general public associates GID with the fetishist components alleged by certain figures, proliferated by certain fringe individuals within the community, and stereotypical images of late nonpassing transistioners vastly more than a notion of us all being rich, accomplished professionals with extensive nest eggs...

But otherwise, I agree it appears that much has been spent in the wrong direction, ignoring bigger issues.

Granted, the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. The only thing we have in common with the lgb groups are those that would do us harm... alliances are based on self interest, not sacrifice in the name of other groups.

Not that this measure would have done much at the end of the day anyway. Employers have always had great liberty to fire or refuse to hire those whom they dislike, its easy enough... all bills such as these accomplish is a polite false facade in which superiors find unrelated justifications for getting rid of undesirables without just being up front and expressing their predispositions. The threat of wrongful termination suits may, vaguely help those already in positions prior to transitioning from being discarded, but its not going to do a thing for someone having transitioned prior to entering the workforce with mixed identification papers and other red flags.

[dan_drade]

I heard about that the other day and that really sucks. Apparently, even those on the left were scared to support a nondiscrimination act that supports Transsexuals. The problem is that they are all scared of the religious right, The fear is that they will protest and say that Trans people perverts (as if no one in the religious right is a pervert. What a fucking joke that is). They think those religious freaks will say that if trans pepole are included that male teachers will go to school in miniskirts and bras and molest all the little boys and girls and not be able to be fired from their jobs. Hmmmm, isnt that what a lot of perverts that belong to the religios right already do? I guess it's ok for them since they do it behind closed doors. Now I say that in jest a little bit, but the bottom line is that is the fear.

Transgendered pepole need this protection more than gays and lesbians in my opinion and it really sucks that they have been excluded. I know too many girls who's legitimate working livelyhood has been destroyed just because they have decided to transition.

Frank figures that if the act only pertains to gays and lesbians it will be far less threatening to those on the right and will more likely be passed. The reality of it is that it is a joke. Everyone knows that the religious right has just as many closet faggots and perverted crossdressers and any other group of so called straight people. Maybe someday everyone will see that and not give a shit what the far right thinks.

[Nowhere]

Ok, this post might be controversial, but I believe it is in the TS Community's best interest to quit being associated with the gay community and, especially to stop relying on them for protection of rights.

It's fairly clear by now that they've really had no interest in the betterment of the TS Community at all. There may have been some coincidental alliances back in the days of stonewall, but that is long in the past.

People clearly know that most gays consider the girls "gay men in denial" and most lesbians consider the girls as "men with a fetish" which neither hold an iota of respect for, or even belief in them being women, as they are.

Oh, they may act politically correct and pretend otherwise, and there may be limited support due to everyone being traditionally under the same umbrella, but I think, at best, they don't really care.

What I also believe is that, intentionally or not, they've made a point to promote their negative beliefs of the girls in many not-so-obvious ways. For example, their support (and involvement) of the drag community consistantly makes girls be not seen as true women, but as parodies of themselves - spectacles of femininity, yes - but always exaggerated and with a touch of "man", forever keeping the reminder that they are "amazing, but not women at the end of the day."

They have teams of people to bring hate crimes to the front of media, at their beacon call, but they somehow never do it for the girls, who have a far, far higher frequency of it, than others. The only ones that have made it through the media (like Gwen Araujo) have done so by the efforts of the TS Community itself, not them. Miriam, who had a TV show, for God's sake - didn't get her crime covered, at all.

So, I think this is just expected and should be yet another example of why the TS Community should stop associating themselves with the gay community and realize that they must fend for themselves.

The best and only way acceptance will come about is by showing how they are simply women, the same as everyone else. And, that means having girls that are extremely passable, in the media as much as possible, not remotely associated with the gay community at all. As long as they are associated with anything that is reinforcing the idea that they are "not women" they will not make progress, at all.

The earlier people in the TS Community learn this and accept this fact, the better.

[Shining Star]

What this in fact all boils down to is quite simple:

The gay agenda has been for some time now to show the world how "normal" they are and represent no threat to the established order. We own homes, have/are raising children, and now marry, etc, etc, so goes the argument. There are many qays who avoid "Pride" marches, and "circut" parties because there is no need to show their lifestyle from the roof-tops.

Apparently a man sleeping with a man is normal, while a man wishing to change to the opposite sex is "wrong" and "weird", thus why rock the boat. If they can get the win by selling "those men in dresses" down the river, so be it.

Slowly over the years in many areas there has been a breaking off of the gay/lesbian movement from transgender, especially, IMHO as gays move into the main stream of acceptance. Choose any Sunday New York Times wedding section and you will see happy gay couples happily annoucing their "marriages" or "commitments". They are doctors, lawyers, hedge fund managers, stock brokers, graphic designers, owners of companies, and so forth. Meanwhile as often pointed out, transgendered persons can and are often fired from their jobs, denied employment, harassed, mocked, beaten, and generally regarded as freaks.

As Bille Holiday sings: Thems Dat Got Shall Get

[Nowhere]

What this in fact all boils down to is quite simple:

The gay agenda has been for some time now to show the world how "normal" they are and represent no threat to the established order. We own homes, have/are raising children, and now marry, etc, etc, so goes the argument. There are many qays who avoid "Pride" marches, and "circut" parties because there is no need to show their lifestyle from the roof-tops.

Apparently a man sleeping with a man is normal, while a man wishing to change to the opposite sex is "wrong" and "weird", thus why rock the boat. If they can get the win by selling "those men in dresses" down the river, so be it.

Slowly over the years in many areas there has been a breaking off of the gay/lesbian movement from transgender, especially, IMHO as gays move into the main stream of acceptance. Choose any Sunday New York Times wedding section and you will see happy gay couples happily annoucing their "marriages" or "commitments". They are doctors, lawyers, hedge fund managers, stock brokers, graphic designers, owners of companies, and so forth. Meanwhile as often pointed out, transgendered persons can and are often fired from their jobs, denied employment, harassed, mocked, beaten, and generally regarded as freaks.

As Bille Holiday sings: Thems Dat Got Shall Get

I think that attitude is further proof on how i'm right with this.

If the gay community cared about the TS community, they would have made efforts to make their lives be perceived as "normal" to the rest of the world, in spite of prejudices, just the same as themselves.

They'd care that they're making strides while the TS Community is left in the dark ages.

They'd not leave them behind.

Simple as that.

[justatransgirl]

Thank you everyone for posting.

I am so pissed off I'm not even going to comment. But everyone needs to get on the phone Monday and make your voice known to our House Representative. Remember most cell calls are free long distance, so use them.

And we have to stand together ladies (and admirers) or continue to fall alone.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-(

[meghanchavalier]

I don't like any politicians, gay or straight. They all annoy the hell out of me.

[peggygee]

Ashley, thank you so much for bringing this to the attention of the forum. :wink:

Alot of good points were made by many people, and I trust that everyone
had the opportunity to read Congressman Frank's statement, this part in
particular:


Detracting from the sense of celebration many of us feel about that is regret that under the current political situation, we do not have sufficient support in the House to include in that bill explicit protection for people who are transgender. The question facing us – the LGBT community and the tens of millions of others who are active supporters of our fight against prejudice – is whether we should pass up the chance to adopt a very good bill because it has one major gap. I believe that it would be a grave error to let this opportunity to pass a sexual orientation nondiscrimination bill go forward, not simply because it is one of the most important advances we’ll have made in securing civil rights for Americans in decades, but because moving forward on this bill now will also better serve the ultimate goal of including people who are transgender than simply accepting total defeat today.

I would strongly encourage people to read the entire statement, and while
it reeks of pol speak, it has significant importance to the the transcommunity.

Yet one must ask why bills that protect those in the LGB community pass,
and those that impact the transcommunity do not.

The usual answer is that the time isn't right politically, that such a bill
would be blocked from passage, or that the public lacks understanding
around those issues.

And while there may be some merits to those sentiments, the harsher
truth and reality is that money and votes talk, and that idle rhetoric is
meaningless to those in political office.

If you are not voting for or against a candidate or issue, your voice will
not be heard. If you do not utilize money and influence to lobby for your
cause, then you will not be heard.

To those on Capitol Hill, or the State houses of your individual states, you
are a non entity, you do not exist.

As has been stated the the transcommunity, should not rely on those in
LGB movement, or the liberal left to promote our rights. We, the
transgendered, whether it be the young transitioner or the old transitioner,
the post op or the pre op, the transwomen who escorts or the women who
works 9-5, we, must all come together and stop the divisiveness that harms us all.


This link is to transfriendly employers (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16294&highlight=employment)

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/needajob.jpg

[SarahG]

-deleted-

[tonkatoy]

When I stop and think of all the friends I have had whom have fallen off the face of the planet, I am reminded just how unrealistic a "TS only political community" is. With so many people disappearing into stealth, leaving those behind who either do not want stealth or couldn't pull it off... I can't help but wondering why anyone would think such a situation could work. What has ts activism, without external support from any side, been able to accomplish in this country? We can't even make a uniform position regarding Bailey or Blanchard (the later of which having done the most harm to our community).


I think this is part of the problem making and organizing transrights. Many girls want to get as far from identifying ts as possible and live stealth, so it makes being politically active problematic. Its like being a silent movement, hoping that another group of people will take up your (or our) cause. While I do not go to any LGBT events, I do on a very local level stick up for ts rights. My gf is ts, but is stealth around here, so I wouldn't do anything to de-cloak her. But I do try to stick up for ts in conversations, when it comes up, which it does surprisingly often among people outside the community. I really wonder what the outside world's view of transsexuals is. When I first became interested in transsexuals I was somewhat naive and was surprised at how many ts women were escorts and in the adult industry, but that is a function of where you look. There are other online groups of ts people who have more mainstream jobs, but they are not about to call attention to themselves and risk the life they have made. So it falls to the people who are honestly in the least tenable position politically, at least the people who are easiest to disregard to make the case for equal rights. I will say this, as a small business owner I would hire and have had transgender employees, so the biggest help there is is for those of us who can employee transgender people to do so.

[BrendaQG]

@Sara

since you want to bring up anchient history....


The assimilationist, normal (per the general public's perception), passable transsexuals of the world are, in the realm of everyone considered to be transgendered- in the vast minority. And this segment, that the general public would have a chance at maybe hearing out- has so many not in the community anymore due to going into stealth, fear of being associated with the fringe tg individuals, the inner community rifts...

Sara I hope you remember the above statement latter this month.

Last thursday I met a woman from England who had transitioned young, had all her work done all at once with Dr Suporn, and joined the Royal Air Force and has served in Iraq. It would be nice to see people like her tell their stories. For people like that are proof that we can function normally if given a chance.

I say I hope you remember what you said latter this month. When the media image of transsexuals will most certainly be brought up again. In numerous forums the portrayl of a transsexual who passes, likes men, and does not want surgery will be lambasted. Said to "Set us back ten years", like it did in england. {sarcasm}Set them back and created such a horrible climate that the house of Lords just had to pass civil rights legislation to undo it.{/sarcasm}

As for anchient history

You also said about activism...


But otherwise, I agree it appears that much has been spent in the wrong direction, ignoring bigger issues.


We can't even make a uniform position regarding Bailey or Blanchard (the later of which having done the most harm to our community).

Leaving aside the notion that everyone must agree on that for the time being. I just have to ask what you think that has to do with anything? The people we are talking about would not need to and probably did not ever read of Blanchard, Bailey or his book. Or of autogynephilia. Perhaps now they will and they will see how a community almost universally obsessed with their identites ignore much more practical things to focus on a rather obsure book. :roll:

[SarahG]

I say I hope you remember what you said latter this month. When the media image of transsexuals will most certainly be brought up again. In numerous forums the portrayl of a transsexual who passes, likes men, and does not want surgery will be lambasted. Said to "Set us back ten years", like it did in england. {sarcasm}Set them back and created such a horrible climate that the house of Lords just had to pass civil rights legislation to undo it.{/sarcasm}

I am not sure I understand the England reference. Could you expand on that?



I just have to ask what you think that has to do with anything? The people we are talking about would not need to and probably did not ever read of Blanchard, Bailey or his book.


It has to do with everything. A focal point in this thread, unless I am severely mistaken, is that we'd be best served to act individually and to ditch the lgb allies at once in terms of political activism.

That notion lends a concern over how the trans specific community acts in terms of activism, separate from the things that are (attempted to be) conglomerated in with lgb issues & policy. The trans specific side of activism, of which lgb groups play no part of significance, is problematic at best, inefficient, plagued by inconsistency, inter rifts, over inflated egos as well as a lost sense of reality.

Issues such as the Bailey or Blanchard debates don't reflect lgb activism or lgb & tg alliances. It does, however, strongly reflect upon tg activities separate and beyond all else; independent (perhaps isolated?) from other groups.



a community almost universally obsessed with their identites ignore much more practical things to focus on a rather obsure book. :roll:

There is more to that issue than some "obscure book." I personally strongly believe that our fixation on causation theory debate has done nothing but harm, expending focus, resources and other things on something that has no bearing on real world matters while handling the power of dialogs over tg issues to those who would do us harm by giving them control of the debates' contents & directions. A reactive, not proactive activism on our part.

That is not to say that all such figures of which trans activism bashes heads against are separated from real world matters. The effects of Blanchard on every day, real world trans people has been drastic and costly. Blanchard is exactly the reason why medical treatment for GID is not covered in the US, and made as hard to reach, abrasive in process, and disenchanting as possible in Canada and the U.K.

Tell me, what could possibly be of more "real world" relevance than access to medical treatments such as therapy, hrt, ffs and srs? Anti-discrimination legislation forcing employers to ditch trans employees silently in place of current practices of just going on out and saying to the employee that they're being kicked to the curb because the company "doesn't want anyone who is trans in it"?

These medical protocol practices have many drastic consequences both here and abroad. Remember that thread from a couple months back about a GID patient under NHS in the UK whom had been formerly in the infantry? Such stories of, as this board has pointed out in clear detail, "the wrong way of transitioning" create a mainstream perception that we are "just guys who wake up one day, go FT and then later on the road think about doing stuff to alter our bodies." There is no real way to work outside the NHS system in the UK, so in NHS, because of Blanchard specifically- these fucked up protocols are institutionalized and, even worse; put on display for the world.

[Felicia Katt]

It seems to me that the gay community decided that half a loaf was better than none, so they took what they could get, leaving the transgender community with nothing but crumbs. My take on it all is that you can only get anti-discrimination laws passed when you can show the majority that the group facing prejudice and intolerance doesn't deserve it. Since mich of the homosexual community is not fully supportive of the Tg one, its easy for the straight one to justify their own biases and prejudices. There but for the grace of god only works when people can project themselves into that situation. So the public perception of being gay has been molded and changed from flamboyance, feather boas and leather to the mainstream of the mundane, minivans, monogamy and McDonalds. But even as the public face of gayness has so evolved, the community kept its solidarity. There is no real solidarity in the T community. Transsexuals denigrate crossdressers, Young transsexuals would throw older ones from the train if not under it. I have cringed reading some of the posts here about older transitioners. The beautiful would abandon the homely. And the admirers feel free to heap abuse on any girl who doesn't meet their ideals, and to cower behind their anonymous "straightness", even aganist other fellow admirers. Well, wake up everyone. We can't expect the rest of society to treat us better than we do ourselves. Right now, they look at us, and see how fractured and divisive and dysfunctional our community is and its easy for them to say, they deserve what they get, and they aren't like us.

For change to happen, it has to start from within. If you can't get a job, look in yourself for the reason, don't blame others in the community. If you face other unfair discrimations or see social injustices, speak out against them, not against those less fortunate than you. If your company would fire you for loving a TG girl, well they say you can tell a lot about someone by the company you keep. Find a new one. Fix the problem, not the blame. You might be right that society is taking its cue from segments of our community that don't best represent it, but trashiing them as well doesn't change that, it only reinforces it. In every past struggle for civil rights, there have been those who could get by themselves, without the need for society and the laws to be changed. But passing for white, staying in the closet, and now going stealth don't affect social change, they bypass it. Ignoring the problem, or being fortunate or privleged enough that it may ignore you won't ever solve it. In one of the earliest civil rights movements, this country's battle for independence from British rule, there were those who would ally with England, or against segments of the colonists. Benjamin Franklin said it best: We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately" In that instance being hung was considered a negative LOL But you get the point. ;) A social movement takes mass and momentum and is hurt when its members fight among themselves or are left behind

FK

[TrueBeauty TS]

I BLAME THE TRANSGENDERED ACTIVIST! THEY HAVE MADE A WORSE IMPRESSION ON THE PUBLIC MIND THAN ALL THE STREET WALKERS AND EROS HUSTLERS COMBINED! I mean they have gone out of their way to protray a positive media image.




Just a reminder.... Those TRANSGENDERED ACTIVISTS are the ones that fought for you to get a driver's licence that has an F on it instead of M. What have you done to make the world better for transsexuals??

And God forbid they should go " out of their way to protray a positive media image." You think showing the world that all trannys are whores and sex workers would put us in a better light?



.


.

[mbf]

It seems to me that the gay community decided that half a loaf was better than none, so they took what they could get, leaving the transgender community with nothing but crumbs. .... So the public perception of being gay has been molded and changed from flamboyance, feather boas and leather to the mainstream of the mundane, minivans, monogamy and McDonalds. But even as the public face of gayness has so evolved, the community kept its solidarity.
FK

here is my two - most likely - unwanted cents nevertheless Im gonna post away.

gays are integrated in the "mainstream" ONLY on a case-to-case base, in selected fields and at selcted places.

gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees

the "public perception" doesnt change that a bit. be openly gay in a job thats NOT the arts, fashion, entertainment - and you are at best ridiculed or more likel FIRED. sure, thats more than the "t-community" has achieved yet.

gays are excepted as the "interesting" sidekick, the "creative" fashion designer. and NOT your kids schoolteacher.

show me a high ranking openly gay decision maker. or a blue collar guy who says hes gay.

but maybe europe is really different in that respect, you have an openly gay mayor in Hamburg as well as in Berlin, the capitol of the most important european state. you have a (former prostitue btw) transgender-activist in the Italian parliament.

just dont kid yourselves - the "mainstream" onmly accepts outsiders or minorities if they can be exploited.

[mbf]

And God forbid they should go " out of their way to protray a positive media image." You think showing the world that all trannys are whores and sex workers would put us in a better light?
.

but, TrueBeautyTS, if there was NO single ts-hooker on this planet, do you think there would be MORE "mainstream"-acceptance?

I highly doubt that. in the western hemisphere everything has to be good/bad, black/white, man/woman

TS just transcend that fine and handy dichotomy. and thats enough for many to simply dont like TS.

I remember my biology teacher in highschool, who was so anti gay it was ridiculous. for him ANY gay guy was a child molester, and trans were the ultimate bottom-feeders for him. hopelessly ill in the head. and this was a catholic private school , ten years ago, and suffice to say he was a RESPECTED MEMBER of the community.

[peggygee]

It seems to me that the gay community decided that half a loaf was better than none, so they took what they could get, leaving the transgender community with nothing but crumbs. .... So the public perception of being gay has been molded and changed from flamboyance, feather boas and leather to the mainstream of the mundane, minivans, monogamy and McDonalds. But even as the public face of gayness has so evolved, the community kept its solidarity.
FK

here is my two - most likely - unwanted cents nevertheless Im gonna post away.

gays are integrated in the "mainstream" ONLY on a case-to-case base, in selected fields and at selcted places.

gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees

the "public perception" doesnt change that a bit. be openly gay in a job thats NOT the arts, fashion, entertainment - and you are at best ridiculed or more likel FIRED. sure, thats more than the "t-community" has achieved yet.

gays are excepted as the "interesting" sidekick, the "creative" fashion designer. and NOT your kids schoolteacher.

show me a high ranking openly gay decision maker. or a blue collar guy who says hes gay.

but maybe europe is really different in that respect, you have an openly gay mayor in Hamburg as well as in Berlin, the capitol of the most important european state. you have a (former prostitue btw) transgender-activist in the Italian parliament.

just dont kid yourselves - the "mainstream" onmly accepts outsiders or minorities if they can be exploited.

I am going to have to beg to differ with you, there are gays in all
walks of life, living quite openly. You may not know them, but I kow many
gay and lesbian people working in blue, grey, pink and while collar
occupations, not merely the stereotypical ones like the arts and fashion.

I will agree with this:




gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees



Gays because they are usually single and without children, tend to have
a great deal of disposable income, thus this makes them a very sought
after market demographic.

As voters, they are very organized and will mobilize to get the candidate
of their chosing in or out of office. They also will lobby very aggressively
for issues impacting them.

And finally not only are they employees, but they are often employers as
well, and their voice by virtue of being taxpayers is one that must be
heard.

[TrueBeauty TS]

but, TrueBeautyTS, if there was NO single ts-hooker on this planet, do you think there would be MORE "mainstream"-acceptance?



Yes, I do. If every TS was a beautiful, ellegant, educated, well-mannered young woman, I think there would be more mainstream exceptance. But I know that's not the reality and that was not what I was implying.

I was simply saying to Brenda that ONLY portraying TS's as sex workers, street walkers and whores is not any better than bashing the TS activists she dislikes so much.

.

[mbf]

ooops hit the wrong button, sorry folx!!!

[TrueBeauty TS]

So, I think this is just expected and should be yet another example of why the TS Community should stop associating themselves with the gay community and realize that they must fend for themselves.



Agreed. Everyone that has an interest in the TS world needs to become an activist. Grandparents of TS's, Parents of TS's, brothers & sisters of TS's, lovers & admireres of TS's.


And how many TS's are registered to vote? Maybe next to the free AIDS testing booth, we need a free voter registration booth. Squeeky wheel gets the grease.


You don't have to wear a "I AM A TRANNY" T-shirt, but start making a small difference in everyday life. Speak out against someone making a snide remark about a TS, casually say that you've met a TS before and they seemed like "normal people" (even if that's a lie. LOL) Hire a tranny a work. Just start winning small battles. They will add up.


.

[Ashley]

gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees

Totally. It's all about power and we have little.

...unless we stop bitching and fix this:


There is no real solidarity in the T community. Transsexuals denigrate crossdressers, Young transsexuals would throw older ones from the train if not under it. I have cringed reading some of the posts here about older transitioners. The beautiful would abandon the homely. And the admirers feel free to heap abuse on any girl who doesn't meet their ideals, and to cower behind their anonymous "straightness", even aganist other fellow admirers. Well, wake up everyone. We can't expect the rest of society to treat us better than we do ourselves. Right now, they look at us, and see how fractured and divisive and dysfunctional our community is and its easy for them to say, they deserve what they get, and they aren't like us.

Which is was exactly what I was talking about in this post:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=25114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

Come on people!

[Nowhere]

It's fairly clear by now that they've really had no interest in the betterment of the TS Community at all. There may have been some coincidental alliances back in the days of stonewall, but that is long in the past.

Beyond that I agree with your notion of how we are ignored in terms of hate crime outcry, trivialized by those who see us as freaks, not defended by those in the community baring witness to the occasional "lumberjack lesbian hate speech against trans individuals" but really, what would you propose to replace the lgbt bedside alliance?

I propose doing what is necessary, which has been necessary, all along. The TS Community must take care of itself.

And, it should take MORE care of itself. It should be more vigilant on getting the proper perception of all girls in the media. For example, anyone with reasonable knowledge knows the "Springer" model - working girls use it for a laugh and as advertisement for future dates.

The TS community should completely condemn that. And, to top (this also might be controversial), but all girls who do that, I believe, should be completely ostracized from the community, too. There is nothing more destructive to acceptance than making girls look like circus freaks, no matter how passable they are.

The community should develop it's own legal teams to deal with all of the hate crimes that are so rampant. They should deal with the media when they're ignored or treated like freaks by it.

The overall perception of girls should be taken back into their hands and should be carefully managed so that they are ALWAYS seen as women, just as gays carefully manage the perception of them to be always seen as human.




We're such a tiny demographic size wise, we'd never be able to stand on our own. Fuck, no civil rights movement IN HISTORY has been able to get anywhere without widespread support from people in groups not related to the struggle personally. The black civil rights movement had the moderate jews, women's suffrage had male progressives, child labor laws had politically active adults (ok, that example is iffy since everyone was a child once).

Actually, I think that's a good example, since everyone knows women and half of the population are women, so reinforcing the fact that tgirls ARE women would work well, provided it was done carefully.



I am not going to claim that every tv is a fetishist, that every late transistioner can't pass, or anything of the short... but those situations are going to keep the general public's perception twisted for quite a long time to come. Look at how the media seems to have spent years latching onto trans stories where the person in question did an overnight transistion without extended hrt use first, looking no different from their "before" picture except in different clothes, maybe with makeup or a wig... it is as damning as the "tvs are 50+ year old men jerking off in hose" image.

And, hence the reason that image must be minimized / eliminated through careful management of the media's perception.


The assimilationist, normal (per the general public's perception), passable transsexuals of the world are, in the realm of everyone considered to be transgendered- in the vast minority.

It doesn't matter, as long as the passing image is the image that is known.


When I stop and think of all the friends I have had whom have fallen off the face of the planet, I am reminded just how unrealistic a "TS only political community" is. With so many people disappearing into stealth, leaving those behind who either do not want stealth or couldn't pull it off...

And, the only reason that is the case is because the acceptance doesn't exist. I'm quite sure most girls would not hide their past if no negative repercussions (and extreme ones at that) existed.


I can't help but wondering why anyone would think such a situation could work. What has ts activism, without external support from any side, been able to accomplish in this country? We can't even make a uniform position regarding Bailey or Blanchard (the later of which having done the most harm to our community).

Hence, the reason it needs to come together and take responsibility (in this case, condemning and renouncing all concepts of AG as heresy) of it's image and perception.

[BrendaQG]

@SarahG

In one paragraph you talk about how time and energy has been wasted arguing over causes of transsexuality. Then in the next you say this.


Blanchard is exactly the reason why medical treatment for GID is not covered in the US, and made as hard to reach, abrasive in process, and disenchanting as possible in Canada and the U.K.

I decided this was not worth mentioning. In an earlier post I described a conversation with a Brit who was young post-op and in the RAF serving in Iraq for the last many years. I was curious to know if she was aware of the whole BBL ruckus over here.

I said to her: "have you hear of Chicago's Michale Bailey and his book."

She said "who?"

I said "Never mind."

And we moved on to other topics.
I really don't think that this persons life has been so effected by Bailey or Blanchard. She does not even have a clue they exist. Which I assure you is most people including the members of congress. Only within the USA/Canada is there any awareness of that issue even among transsexuals ourselves.

You really don't get the England reference? Having been here for a while. Even in context of a thread that has become about public perceptions and media matters? :-/ :-? There's something odd about that. :-\

@ True Beauty


What have you done to make the world better for transsexuals ?

I love it when people try to question my lifetime achievements or personal connections. It gives me a chance to brag.

I am a quietly out, passable and yes some people think I am pretty transsexual with a B.S. in physics and in graduate school. I am a role model and have blazed a little path that at least one other person has followed. For an undergrad came out as T after seeing me. I also un did the damage that Diedre McClosky had done on a local level (she was known as Dr. McKrazy for how she acted. Like a bull in a china shop wearing ill fitting ugly shoes.)



I was simply saying to Brenda that ONLY portraying TS's as sex workers, street walkers and whores is not any better than bashing the TS activists she dislikes so much.

I never said any such thing and anyone who takes the time to read the whole thread will know that. What I said was. Quoting myself.


I BLAME THE TRANSGENDERED ACTIVIST! THEY HAVE MADE A WORSE IMPRESSION ON THE PUBLIC MIND THAN ALL THE STREET WALKERS AND EROS HUSTLERS COMBINED! I mean they have gone out of their way to portray a positive media image. They have done their best to make all media visible transsexuals are doctors and lawyers, and race car drivers, with fat tax exempt 401k's and nice houses. While at the same time being presentationally inept! What has it got us? A country that resents transsexuals so much that we are the most maligned minority. People who's image is one of power privilege and self determined choice. A image that makes the question of transsexual employment one of keeping suits from getting fired instead of young people scratching to survive.

That is what I said the point of the paragraph being that the media image fostered by the activist is of someone who really dose not need employment discrimination protection. One of people who even if they loose their jobs they have enough savings and credit to survive for months or years to find a new job.

What I think the story of the much maligned street walker, or any one of the Eros providers who has a degree... would do is drive home the fact that good employable people find themselves with little real choice. other than sex work due directly to the kind of discrimination that ENDA was meant to reduce.

A second point is that people are shallow. One of the dichotomies that MBF mentioned earlier would be good looking ==> good person, bad looking ==> bad person. It's shallow and basic but people are shallow and basic. So portraying transsexuals who got their act together young, became aesthetically pleasing women, and moved on to make good in some mainstream sense. Would be a good and positive message.

One last thing. Please do not, do not put words in my mouth.

[SarahG]

@SarahG

In one paragraph you talk about how time and energy has been wasted arguing over causes of transsexuality. Then in the next you say this.


Blanchard is exactly the reason why medical treatment for GID is not covered in the US, and made as hard to reach, abrasive in process, and disenchanting as possible in Canada and the U.K.

I decided this was not worth mentioning. In an earlier post I described a conversation with a Brit who was young post-op and in the RAF serving in Iraq for the last many years. I was curious to know if she was aware of the whole BBL ruckus over here.

The reason why I mentioned it is because I am arguing there is a tangible difference between the Bailey issue and the Blanchard issue.

At the end of the day all Bailey does is act as a catylist in ways I've already described, Blanchard on the other hand, has single handedly formulated oppressive medical protocols that are in use in multiple countries.

Just because someone does not know who is to blame for something, does not necessarily mean a given injustice is blameless.

I am trying to draw a difference between the two to make the case that the later of the two may actually pave the way for real world changes. Blanchard's positions are slowly fallling out of medical science acceptance, and maybe, just maybe, reclassification of GID in the DSM would be able to finally break through the healthcare coverage exclusionary practices.



That is what I said the point of the paragraph being that the media image fostered by the activist is of someone who really dose not need employment discrimination protection. One of people who even if they loose their jobs they have enough savings and credit to survive for months or years to find a new job.

What I think the story of the much maligned street walker, or any one of the Eros providers who has a degree... would do is drive home the fact that good employable people find themselves with little real choice. other than sex work due directly to the kind of discrimination that ENDA was meant to reduce.

But that still dances around the reality that ENDA would not have actually accomplished anything in terms of making real world differences anyway.

Do you believe ENDA would have made a real world difference on a scale allowing for individuals whom feel they are forced into sex work due to discrimination, to go back into the "mainstream" workforce in a way different from prior?



A second point is that people are shallow. One of the dichotomies that MBF mentioned earlier would be good looking ==> good person, bad looking ==> bad person. It's shallow and basic but people are shallow and basic. So portraying transsexuals who got their act together young, became aesthetically pleasing women, and moved on to make good in some mainstream sense. Would be a good and positive message

On this point I very much agree. Bringing things into a closed circle somewhat... by reforming medical protocols in ways that allow for people to transistion at younger ages successfully, the issue of appearance will be aided, certainly of more potential than the current media addictions to older transistioners following blanchard like transitioning processes such as those already addressed in past threads like I have already eluded to.

The sympathetic, nonsexual, prepubicant child suffering from gender issues is certainly a model of outreach that has been barely touched and needs further exploration. The age old political "for the children line" has such a history because it works so well, regardless what the given issue is.

[SarahG]

And, hence the reason that image must be minimized / eliminated through careful management of the media's perception.

Agreed but one can not control the media as easily as one may think or say. The media is always a double edged sword for anyone who uses it, as the media is a business aimed for one thing and one thing only: ratings (aka profits). They'll take any side, make up any controversy, sensationalize any issue to obtain those ends.

Look at all the girls of the past who have gone into documentaries or other media coverage willingly hoping to optimistically "do good for the community by telling their experiences" only to have the media entity hold editorial control and thus, the ability to twist and spin to their delight.



And, the only reason that is the case is because the acceptance doesn't exist. I'm quite sure most girls would not hide their past if no negative repercussions (and extreme ones at that) existed.


Acceptance and tolerance are two separate things. Just because there maybe no negative consequences for coming out, doesn't mean the expierence of being out will be identical to being stealthed. That difference, as small as it is, can mean the world to people, perpetuating stealth in days when its alternatives do not have the same hostile, destructive elements.

[Felicia Katt]

Totally. It's all about power and we have little.

...unless we stop bitching and fix this:


There is no real solidarity in the T community. Transsexuals denigrate crossdressers, Young transsexuals would throw older ones from the train if not under it. I have cringed reading some of the posts here about older transitioners. The beautiful would abandon the homely. And the admirers feel free to heap abuse on any girl who doesn't meet their ideals, and to cower behind their anonymous "straightness", even aganist other fellow admirers. Well, wake up everyone. We can't expect the rest of society to treat us better than we do ourselves. Right now, they look at us, and see how fractured and divisive and dysfunctional our community is and its easy for them to say, they deserve what they get, and they aren't like us.

Which is was exactly what I was talking about in this post:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=25114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

Come on people!

Actually, I said that, not MBF. I'm glad you think it bears repeating but not re-attributing :)

FK

[mbf]

Totally. It's all about power and we have little.

...unless we stop bitching and fix this:


There is no real solidarity in the T community. Transsexuals denigrate crossdressers, Young transsexuals would throw older ones from the train if not under it. I have cringed reading some of the posts here about older transitioners. The beautiful would abandon the homely. And the admirers feel free to heap abuse on any girl who doesn't meet their ideals, and to cower behind their anonymous "straightness", even aganist other fellow admirers. Well, wake up everyone. We can't expect the rest of society to treat us better than we do ourselves. Right now, they look at us, and see how fractured and divisive and dysfunctional our community is and its easy for them to say, they deserve what they get, and they aren't like us.

Which is was exactly what I was talking about in this post:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=25114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

Come on people!

Actually, I said that, not MBF. I'm glad you think it bears repeating but not re-attributing :)

FK

true, things that make sense most likely DO NOT STEM from me :lol:

[Ashley]

Actually, I said that, not MBF. I'm glad you think it bears repeating but not re-attributing :)

FK

(whoops) thanks for clearing that up.

[TrueBeauty TS]

One last thing. Please do not, do not put words in my mouth.


Then please do not, do not belittle those older activists that have made the world a little bit better for all TS women. Even you.



.

[justatransgirl]

I'm finally able to post some thoughts on this.

I was so sad yesterday after receiving messages and reading about this that for the first time in ages I though about just giving up and killing myself and being done with all the BS once and for all. And I doubt I was/am the only t-girl who felt sad at this apparent betrayal by the gay community.

But the quesiton is what do we do about it? They'd like us to kill ourselves. It would solve the problem. Do we cut off our nose and tell the gays to fuck off? Or do we hope a continued alliance will someday bear fruit?

Here in San Diego the main GLBT magazine is called the GLT - "Gay and Lesbian Times."

Nothing about transsexuals. I had to raise hell and threaten a lawsuit just to get them to stop running an ad that depicted a t-girl peeing into a toilet standing up. They are NOT our friends.

I honestly don't know where I fit - I'm a transsexual in a same sex relationship

On one hand I'd like to write an editorial letter telling them to fuck off forever. On the other hand I'm gay - or lesbian or whatever you want to call two t-girls in love - so I am part of the gay community.

And then there is the situation where other than jail and dealing with LE - I don't face any real discrimination. I pass. I've never been refused lodging, or a meal, or a job. Of course I know nobody is going to hire me at a wage I need regardless of being trans or not. I HAVE to work for myself. I've worked for myself since I was 25. I wouldn't even know what to do at a job interview. I can run the damm company.

But like TB said - what have each of us done lately? I have to say I haven't done much. Partly because as a sex worker I've felt left outside of the usual GLBT "center- activist" community. And I know what happens to whores who speak out against injustice. So I say what I can on a "safe" site like this in hopes someone else can take my thoughts and do something worthwhile with them.

But I think perhaps it's time we start thinking about taking our conversations into the mainstream. A lot of what is discussed here ought to be posted on CNN and the NY Times.

And I think Jennifer has the right idea with her speaking at her school. I think our best hope is the education of a generation. We need to take Transgender 101 into the jr and sr high schools and teach the kids. Then we have a chance at legislation.

Sigh,
TS Jamie ;-(