Do T-Girls who don't do porn give us all a bad name ?????

[Kirsty Scott TG]

I finally think I have found a place I can express my frustration and perhaps vent a little anger on this issue .......

All too often on other sites I come across posts where Transsexuals, or should I say girls who convince themselves they are transsexuals because the elite say you have to be such to be taken seriously, keep insisting that those of us who are involved with adult entertainment give the scene a bad name.

Don't get me wrong, girls who are brave enough to to follow their hearts completely and take on society by undergoing the full sex change all need to be applauded and wherever possible supported.

However, all too often it is little thought through as to how they can sustain a living when they do so ........ ta dah! enter the sex industry!

The niche market ....... The Tranny scene ...... escort or porn ........ It's undeniable and the internet has made it a large possibility .... opened many a backdoor you could say :wink:

Anyway .... the point I suppose I am trying to get to is embracing what we have, ie the very aspect that has driven close to insanity as we go through youth and adolescence .... being transgendered..... can provide an opportunity to those who don't necessarily believe the sex industry is evil.

..... and it doesn't mean we can't be serious ..... or that we don't have any intelligence ...... or feelings ...... or live any form of other life once the stockings come off ........ and it should not mean we can't be taken in anyway as serious as our


........... "I am a straight T-Girl" .... proclaimed sisters ......

We have all undergone the same torments, we have all battled the same issues inside our own heads, some with more and some with less support than others, and we have all arrived at different places dependent on circumstance and opportunity .........

so we should all support each other .....

We should forgoe all bitching (except in fun that is) .... and accept our differences as much as celebrate what we have in common ......

and that should incude whether or not we like to have sex and show the world .........

Kirsty
xxx xxx
(can someone help me off the horse I think it's too high for my short legs?)

[cp3rb25]

:popcorn :popcorn :popcorn This could get interesting :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn

[slinky]

I believe you can not do sex work for any serious amount of time and come through it unscathed. That has nothing to do with being transgender, male or female.

[Ecstatic]

Interesting twist and inversion of the usual argument, Kirsty, and every bit as valid imho. What it really comes to is each not putting the other down for the choices made.

Danny, you too have a good point, though the degree of scathing varies tremendously. Some fare far better than others, even I daresay there are those who emerge unscathed (though not unchanged, if you can differentiate between the two).

[whatsupwithat]

I believe you can not do sex work for any serious amount of time and come through it unscathed.

no matter what you do, everything somehow leaves its mark, it's energy on you. you can see it in people on the street. a job, a career kills off parts of your heart and soul without you even knowing.

[TrueBeauty TS]

To be honest, I have no idea what you were trying to say.

Escorts/porn = Good

Straight job = Bad


Is that it?


:?

[Wicked Mira]

Bravo, Kirsty!

For myself (a post-op transsexual woman) I transitioned in the vanilla world as a professional and for about ten years did as I was told I should--blend in, be normal and live like a "normal" woman. I was told that "now that I was a woman, I should live and behave as a woman is supposed to." I tried but realized I didn't do or go through all that I did just to live like everyone else!

I'm now an escort and adult video performer because I love it! This isn't obligatory on all TS's, of course, and anyone who has the guts to be themselves in this world of hypocrisy has the right to be whomever they wish to be! I think the greatest contribution that we TG's make is to show the world that you don't have to hide who you are inside. We live in a world of frauds and fakes. Enough.

(You're right, Kirsty, this horse is high!)

I love sex and I became a woman completely so that I could enjoy sex through the wonderful female body. I became professional so that I could merge what I do for a living with that I love the most. The world I came from hypocritically proclaimed itself based upon honesty and integrity. I find the sex business, with all its flakes and bs, to be the most honest thing I've ever done. I'm happier now than I ever have been in my entire life.

http://www.wickedmira.com/Video/Non-MemberVidStills/WantonWoman/Overlay/Image42w-overlay.jpg

[whatsupwithat]

We have all undergone the same torments, we have all battled the same issues inside our own heads, some with more and some with less support than others, and we have all arrived at different places dependent on circumstance and opportunity .........

so we should all support each other .....

We should forgoe all bitching (except in fun that is) .... and accept our differences as much as celebrate what we have in common ......

and that should incude whether or not we like to have sex and show the world .........

Kirsty
xxx xxx
(can someone help me off the horse I think it's too high for my short legs?)

Great points.

My takes is both sides are at fault in different ways and no one shares all the blame for the divide.

But you're right. Come together. Accept the diversity. Embrace it. Look at the LGB population. There's an argument to be made that their success in this world is largely based on their willingness to openly embrace the sex and the politics at the same time.

[whatsupwithat]

To be honest, I have no idea what you were trying to say.

Escorts/porn = Good

Straight job = Bad


Is that it?


:?

I think she was saying that a lot of judgement is handed out against those who do sex work by those who don't.

[Legend]

I think those girls who don't work in the industry and/or escort buisness have to work extra hard to make a living then those who work in the industry.Those in the porn and who escort don't have put as much effort into it because the buisness doesn't require that much interaction with everyday people who might not even know anything about trans.I just think it's much easier for a girl to get a photo shoot or a desperate chaser then a high entry job.I'm not saying they are any smarter but they have to work extra hard and should be giving their proper respect.

[TsVanessa69]

funny
I find working in the escort and movie business actually harder and more challenging than a so called real job.

[Shining Star]

Think what some people feel is that to a casual observer it seems most if not all trans they meet/see are "working"; and that brings the group down as a whole, especially when fighting for equal rights/non-discrimination.

However the flip side to this argument, and my favourite response is, you tend to find what you are looking for when you look in places where those things are. If you are looking for TS girls in the back of the Village Voice, on CL, Eros.com or other escort sites, or at some of the parties/in the scene; well then yes, you probably may find and come away with the conclusion "all" TS girls are working.

However there are many TS girls who are NOT part of the scene, and go about their lives like the rest of the world. You don't often "find" them because they pretty much live the lives they wish, that is blending in just like everyone else.

OTHO the topic of transgender girls working has been addressed on several fronts, including those active in the community; all of whom point out that if you don't like the idea of girls working, they must be given the same equal chances in society as everyone else.

If one can pass easily, and wrap one's mind into the accepted behaviour for a "GG", then finding and holding employment may be easy; but even then it takes a huge toll mentally (been there and done that). Those same girls, having worked in some cases for years at one place often find themselves fired once their "T" is exposed. Happily today this is changing as more and more companies embrace diversity in the workplace. Companies like Verizon (which left me totally gobsmacked) have quite a few transexuals working for them, and they are who they are. They don't run around in revealing clothing screaming "hey girl!", or what not; they just get on.

Cannot see how working TS girls can bring down an entire class, after all there have been GG skanks and hoes for ages, yet no one is arguing EVERY woman is one.

IMHO the trans community would do much better taking a page from the gay and lesbian book, and work together on a united front. By putting labels on different categories and dividing the group into those deemed worthy versus those who are dammed, will only keep the entire group down. Just my two pence.

[SXFX]

God I wish some one would pay me to have sex with a hot girl. I mean girls the guys on these flicks aren't too ugly are they? Sure they are no Brad Pit...but hay, it's not like theiy are super fuzzy?
Ah what ever each to their own.

[whatsupwithat]

Companies like Verizon (which left me totally gobsmacked) have quite a few transexuals working for them, and they are who they are.

Agree with what you wrote. It's getting to be an everyday occurence.

But, please, for the lay person...gobsmacked?

[Shining Star]

"Gob"

Old English word for mouth, as in "shut your gob".

Gobsmacked, British slang term to mean stunned or flabbergasted; as if smacked in the mouth/standing with one's mouth wide open.

[whatsupwithat]

"Gob"

Old English word for mouth, as in "shut your gob".

Gobsmacked, British slang term to mean stunned or flabbergasted; as if smacked in the mouth/standing with one's mouth wide open.

ahhh.

[SarahG]

I believe you can not do sex work for any serious amount of time and come through it unscathed.

no matter what you do, everything somehow leaves its mark, it's energy on you. you can see it in people on the street. a job, a career kills off parts of your heart and soul without you even knowing.

that was my thought exactly. How many times have you heard of someone, nontrans, working what some people think of as a mainstream job... "taking work home with them" or "having intense work related nightmares" or "filing a stress workers comp claim"

Employment can be quite draining on individuals, hence why- even when people enjoy their job, they get paid for it.

If the variable "strain" on girls in adult entertainment is an argument against that field, then isn't that an argument against any kind of employment by relation?

[Wicked Mira]

. . . However there are many TS girls who are NOT part of the scene, and go about their lives like the rest of the world. You don't often "find" them because they pretty much live the lives they wish, that is blending in just like everyone else.

. . .

If one can pass easily, and wrap one's mind into the accepted behaviour for a "GG", then finding and holding employment may be easy; but even then it takes a huge toll mentally (been there and done that). Those same girls, having worked in some cases for years at one place often find themselves fired once their "T" is exposed. Happily today this is changing as more and more companies embrace diversity in the workplace.

. . .

Cannot see how working TS girls can bring down an entire class, after all there have been GG skanks and hoes for ages, yet no one is arguing EVERY woman is one.



This post is really fabulous and thank you all for your replies! I am so happy to see this kind of reason and intelligence on this site. Thank you, Kirsty, for starting it.

Shining, well said. I couldn't agree more.

In my opinion (here she goes again!), it's all about being oneself in the world and walking whatever path you find yourself on. We all choose who we are and what we do, some just do it more out of desire, some out of necessity. It's the pressure to conform that is the disease, and one of the most insidious things about our society that easily sneaks by us. It's ingrained in us on so many levels.

How about we all just do what our souls and our hearts tell us is right for us and trust that others are doing the same? Frankly, I have all I need to manage my life than to possibly have any energy left to think about someone elses choices. The entire world needs to get laid a whole lot more often and just calm down. It's a service that we in the sex industry are happy to provide.

[slinky]

no matter what you do, everything somehow leaves its mark, it's energy on you. you can see it in people on the street. a job, a career kills off parts of your heart and soul without you even knowing.

Not like sexwork. Yes, every job has it's aggravations, etc. , but there aren't many that leave the mark that sexwork does.

[DJ_Asia]

working in the adult industry in reality,regardless of your gender assignment has its pros and cons.However most people that arent involved in it are very quick to pass judgement and whip out all the cliches and stereotypes before they even know you.

On a casual level I find nothing wrong with working in the adult industry however having a good relationship from within the biz is near impossible.

[justatransgirl]

Sorry I'm late... :-) Hi Mira. Nice to see you here! HOT picture! I still want to double wiith you dear. Guys are you listening? Giggle...

And Kirsty, welcome to the anarchy :-) - you can tether your horse now, I brought my soapbox... :-)

And Danny - I agree that working in the sex industry can negatively affect girls. Look at our suicide rate. I have lost ALL respect for the police and government since entering the sex industry. Hookers often develop problems with intimacy.

I agree with Kirsty that EVERYONE needs to support each other. But sadly it's easier said that done.

I was once asked not to attend a support group because I did not meet the leaders "moral standards" because I was a whore. In San Diego where we live the community is so faractured as to be non-existant.

A couple of years ago we almost got a program set up. I was on the non-profit planning board - until some new members learned I was a prostitute - something I never hide - and suddenly I wasn't good enough to serve. At the same time - the leader of the young adult support group was outted as a whore - given an "award" and booted out of a volunteer job she loved.

THAT is how transsexual sex workers are treated by the trans community.

I do not feel professional escorts and porn stars bring down all trans people. To the contrary, I belive some pros are the biggest promoters of TS civil rights. Why? Because we've been there. Lead from the front.

Our local community is largely held together by one lady - a former prostitute. She tries so hard. She put together a "town meeting" a few months ago to try to bring the sides together - probably 60 people showed up, many of us spoke - maybe it's a beginning.

But the thing is - few of us have anything in common with the others. The Engineers and computer programmers and college teachers don't want to associate with whores. They didn't do it as boys, why do it as girls. They have their college degrees, their homes, families and careers.

Then we have the young girls who got thrown out by their parents at 17 and ended up on the street with no money, no education, no job. And then some other girl says, "Hey, I know how you can make $1,000 a day..." and next thing you know they are on the fast track of tricks, drugs, jail, rehab, death in the gutter.

The good girls and bad girls lives are so far apart.

As for the business vs a job. And I'm talking here about professional internet escorts not streetwalkers.

This escort business is just as much work as any other business. There is marketing, bills, customer contact, appointments to make and meet, computers to service, etc. The visible part that you see when an escort comes to your hotel room is like 5% of the whole.

And the porn business is no different. As adult performers and producers, we have to track income and expenses, we have to recruit "employees" (actors) we receive and issue 1099's and we have to pay taxes. We have web sites to maintain, distributors to supply, production and delivery schedules to meet, equipment to mantain and upgrade, on and on.

And yes it pays better than working at Taco Bell, but we also put in 60 hour weeks sometimes.

OK it's late I gotta go to bed.

Hugs,
Jamie :-)

PS - Here's my f**k shot Mira... giggle :-)

[Kirsty Scott TG]

Wow ..... I am truly gobsmacked !!!!! :wink:

I never imagined that my little partially tongue and cheek, rhetorical blurb would inspire such a thoughtful and articulate discussion ...... so thank you everyone for contributing ....... (Soap box/High Horse or otherwise .....)

Understandably not everuone followed my ramblings so I feel first off I need to set some aspects straight about what I was NOT trying to say ......

* I was NOT trying to say that porn/sex industry was a better way to earn a living in comparison to a professional job or a regular 9-5;

* I am most certainly NOT wishing to to create a further divide in an already too fragmented community;

* In NO way am I suggesting that those who do not participate in the sex Industry should do so if they are not inclined;

* I am NOT promoting the benefits of long lasting stains for high level timbers on your house in certain climatical conditions;

* I was not even playing a violin for those who are caught in the Industry and have no other means of earning a living;

* and I do NOT ever wish to play down the acheivements that many TS girls accomplish in undergoing the change, and fitting into society and I would love to know if anyone in that position is truly happy with their lives. Except it is unlikely for those who are have acheived their goal and have broken away from the "scene".


I think she was saying that a lot of judgement is handed out against those who do sex work by those who don't.

In it's simplest form that is what I was initially stating, and would further add against those who indulge in overtly sexual behaviour regardless of whether it is a vocation or for pleasure.

So again thank you all for replying especially Mira and Jamie because it is through actual experiences that lessons can belearnt and if no-one is willing to discuss them i.e on "sites for nice girls" then no-one will learn form them ......

Kirsty
xxx xxx






[/quote]

[Kirsty Scott TG]

Hi Legend, If I may I'd like to take what you said earlier:


I think those girls who don't work in the industry and/or escort buisness have to work extra hard to make a living then those who work in the industry.Those in the porn and who escort don't have put as much effort into it because the buisness doesn't require that much interaction with everyday people who might not even know anything about trans.I just think it's much easier for a girl to get a photo shoot or a desperate chaser then a high entry job.I'm not saying they are any smarter but they have to work extra hard and should be giving their proper respect.

and add to that ........ because I was sort of alluding to this in my opening gambit.

For a Transsexual, regardless of legal rights and claims, holding down a real life job for want of a better description is extremely difficult.

Ok there are going to be exceptions to every rule and perhaps a 9-5 checkout job or a clerical assistants job backed up with political will are distinct possibilities .... but do they offer the financial rewards that could be attained, especially for the younger girls in the sex Industry?

Take your average professional worker with transgendered issues. Gone through college/University and qualified as an Architect or Lawyer ........ sure the law states you can't sack someone for being transgendered but in reality ....... ?

A girl doesn't just transform over night, we all know the rules, live as a girl for a period of time to adjust .... so there is protracted period of change which is a essentially a public metomorphisis .......

Society unfortunately does not live up to it's title ........ clients generally don't want to use that firm anymore, perhaps they'll use another where they can deal with genetically born men and women ......

Not All of course but perhaps a significant number to effect company finance ...... so perhaps the financial aspects that the person was used to are no longer available .... coupled with lets face it expensive surgical procedures, probably relationship turmoil and family troubles ......

and it's then the choice of the less paid but more likely source of steady and acceptable income or the alternative .........

The sex industry is not all fun and games either and I'll leave others to post their own experiences to back this up ..... and Jamie has started to expand on this already ...... but it can be a harsh reality and necessity for many who want to or have gone through the transitioning ......

In neither case should anyone expect to be ostracized from this community (who should no better than any other about a requirement for tolerance ..... ) for the choices they make.

If we can't accept each others differences than how the bloody hell can we expect the rest of society to accept us with open arms ..... or legs if that be the case?

Kirsty
xxx xxx

[biguy4tvtscd]

do they offer the financial rewards that could be attained, especially for the younger girls in the sex Industry?

Of course, the reason the financial rewards are higher is because it is an illegal/taboo/blackmarket/yada, yada, yada, industry.

The more accepted the industry becomes, the lower the rewards will go.


Back to your original point, I couldn't agree more. If tg's wish to become more accepted by "straight" society, step one has to be to stop cutting each other down internally.

Just like the old song...United we stand, divided we fall.

[Wicked Mira]

Kirsty, I love you! Bless you, girl. I can't tell which I'd rather do, hug you or fuck you. How about both?

Jamie, you're a treasure also.

Ok, here I go again. First, the above two women are evidence of just how frequently you find that TG women are intelligent. I think there has to be a greater per capita ratio of intelligent women among the TG population than elsewhere. TG women are so incredible and extraordinary. We draw upon the totality of ourselves, with considerable socialization and education in the ways of men but with a need to so fully express our femininity, and who we are within. I'm so proud to be TG, with all it's immense challenges and difficulties. The climb up the mountain is ardous as hell but the view is stunning. Few get to experience what we do. And unless you've made that journey you can't possibly know.

This isn't to say there aren't dysfunctional, mentally challenged individuals among us for the complexities of gender (whatever that is!) doesn't limit itself to race or intelligence. But I have known so many truly astonishing TG women in all walks of life--the street, lawyers, doctors and surgeons, artists.

The important thing is that everyone one of us makes a choice as to who we will be in this world--whether by charting our own course or following one laid out for us by others. And the fact that we as TG women choose to be who we are despite the discrimination and ignorance that we must confront makes us very strong and powerful people.

Lastly, and since we on the subject of being powerful in our lives, all that ever matters is that every one of us defines ourselves. If we don't others will. There are many people alive who must face greater challenges to living their lives as whole human beings than we do and its all about courage and going out there and doing it despite it all.

I once had a professional life that depended upon clients to keep it alive. I was terrified at what would happen when I finally came out to the world that I was undergoing a sex change. I thought they would bolt, disgusted by my choice and not wanting to be associated with me. But they didn't. In fact, one of them, who was as manly a man as you will ever find said that it didn't matter because he knew me to be a good person and he had no doubt that my choice would make me an even better one. I hope he was right; I believe he was. My choice now to follow my passion and be an escort and performer is born out of desire, not necessity.

It's all in who we are, not our gender.

Again, thank you, Kirsty. What a wonderful surprise this has been.

[BrendaQG]

funny
I find working in the escort and movie business actually harder and more challenging than a so called real job.

True.

But.

Any profession is that way. My father a MD. had some of the same basic problems in private practice that a escort does. No show's, deadbeats, legal issues, advertising... All things that every professional has to worry about.

@ Kristy

There is no real alternative for a young TS. Unless they have parental moral and financial support to pay for everything. Even then eventually they are on their own, and reality smacks them in the face. Getting a job as a TS now that anyone can find your birthname etc. via the internet is much harder. Stealth ha forget about it. For many TS's of all ages the answer is to be a professional and run your own business.

If your young and uneducated adult work is all you can do that will make the kind of money it takes to live comfortably or at all.

The elitist would say that school is always the answer. That's a idealizeation. College is not for everyone. It does not make you any less transsexual or any less of a target. I would tell a youg TS if their is a subject they love and want to immerse themselves in go to school. If not and they want to make money and be independant...escort, hustle, protect yourself. It's possible to do both at the same time but their will always be compromises.

[justatransgirl]

That is a very good comment Vanessa - that not everyone is college material.

This is one reason so many t-girls do end up in sex work. It's difficult for someone who dropped out of the 9th grade to run the street to return to school and get a degree in Computer Programming.

But there are many skilled trades ts women can do, but they have to have access to the programs and some kind of income while training - and a job that pays decently when they graduate.

To take home $5,000 a month - $60,000 a year after taxes (the average median wage in SoCal) you need to earn roughly $40 an hour on a f/t job. Off hand how many t-girls do any of you know who earn that who aren't in the sex industry.

Sigh,
TS Jamie :-)

[justatransgirl]

And Kirsty, thanks for your kind comments.

"Gobsmacked" - little doubt that you are from the UK. :-)

I haven't heard that term since a conversation in SF amongst a bunch of sailors at the marina.

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

[Shining Star]

Would never advocate escorting as a long term viable career option for anyone, much less young trannies. Working as a means to an end is one thing, and indeed has been done by many both men and women; however long term criminal activity in the long run never comes without costs.

To justify the logic of just because a TS in educationally and socially disadvantaged, is an excuse to run wild carries as little weight,IMHO as when the same agruments are used to justify behaviour of other minorites. Just as with those same minorities it is rather mean to expect nothing more of someone merely because of what or who they are.

Today there are huge advances legally for sexual orientation and gender expression. If one wishes to live one's life passing as a "woman", then many of those benefits go out the window. Duke University of all places has a pre-op transexual living on campus. True, there was the usual ruckus about her living in an all female dorm, but the fact that one of the bastions of education for the Old South accomodated the girl speaks volumes.

Yes, finding work as transexual can be difficult, but it certianly is much eaiser than 20 or even 10 years ago. I've met and or seen transgirls working as everything from nurses to lawyers. Indeed the Sunday New York Times Magazine recently did an entire feature on diversity in the work-place, highlighting the many Amercian companies that work hard to be inclusive in their employees. Microsoft, Verizon, Amercian Airlines, and many others do hire transexuals.

What matters is one is presentable, and able to do a job while getting on with others. You cannot hold any job with a nasty attitude/expecting the world owes you a living because you are a "minority". If you want to be a "woman" and accepted as such, you must also learn to behave like a lady.

As for earning potential of escorts, it is very misleading to only "count the coins" as it were. All escorts generally earn their most money within the first year or so of being "fresh". After that unless they are highly "rated" things taper off and it becomes "work" in the true sense. Certianly after several years, especially with younger and younger girls coming on the scene daily, earning potential goes down. So girls find themselves working harder to make equal or in some cases less money.

Continued escorting over the long term increases the odds that sooner or later one is going to come into contact with LE. If one things finding employment as a trannie is difficult, add being a TS with a criminal record and you then have problems doubled.

Over the long haul, I defy anyone to find any escort, especially trannie that retired from the business with enough wealth to live out their days comfortably, not including those who were working towards an end such as raising funds for college, start a business, or some other goal.

Finally long term escorting distorts one's view of relationships, especially in terms of finding a "partner" of whatever sex one is attracted. Working long term also causes some escorts to become bitter and shut down emotionally. There is a numbing that comes to dealing with men one is not always attracted to, out of economic necessity. There is also a the rejection which comes being rejected not as much for being a trannie, but because one is a worker, even a former worker. You hear it all the time even within the world of men who like/chase trannies; "where can I find a girl who is not an escort" .

Some very sucessful people came from minority backgrounds and over came the worst suffering to get ahead; there is no reason not to expect or hold TS girls to the same standards.

[Wicked Mira]

Some very sucessful people came from minority backgrounds and over came the worst suffering to get ahead; there is no reason not to expect or hold TS girls to the same standards.

Very true. It is, however, also very true that much depends upon the socio-economic background from which you were born into. If you're white and privileged, you are quite likely to have an easier time of it. You will likely have received better education and there will be greater opportunities. If you come from a socio-economic background that is less fortunate, you have probably encountered more brutality and far less understanding in your development. You might suffer from lower self-esteem and received less education and, therefore, have fewer options readily available.

But, it remains true that water tends to seek its own level and who we are inside (our character, intelligence and personalities) determines the liklihood of happiness and success in this world, irrespective of gender and race. Some just have to make the journey with more baggage.

In the final analysis, it's all about judging others for who they are and the choices they make. None of us really have any right to do that, unless our goal is to make ourselves feel better by viewing other's choices with disdain. Whenever I find myself succumbing to judgment of others, I ask myself why I need to make myself feel better at someone else's expense?

I choose escorting now, at this point in my life, because I enjoy it immensely. When I stop enjoying it, I will go off and do something else, just as I have all my life. But then, I am one of the fortunate ones who have more options in life. My father never buried a high heel in my skull because he found me cross-dressing as a child. He told me that he loved me.

[BrendaQG]

As for earning potential of escorts, it is very misleading to only "count the coins" as it were. All escorts generally earn their most money within the first year or so of being "fresh". After that unless they are highly "rated" things taper off and it becomes "work" in the true sense. Certianly after several years, especially with younger and younger girls coming on the scene daily, earning potential goes down. So girls find themselves working harder to make equal or in some cases less money.

Suppose things are as you say and young TS's turn just one trick a day, on eros. $250/day * 7 days a week * 50 weeks a year =$87,500/year and probably no debt.

As compared to the most senior physics professor I know ~$78,000/year... with a car note, and mortgage to pay. Forget about it. (I choose that example because it is very personal to me. Sadly in the real world the true value of what one does for society does not equal what one is paid for it. As a matter of fact the more esstential the job the lower the pay!)

A barely legal young TS ought to make those big bucks while they can and buy real estate with it. By 21-25 they would not need to worry about money ever again.

Oh and Shining star. Don't tell anyone here about how to be a woman. Odds are we have been doing it longer and better than you IRL.

[DJ_Asia]

As for earning potential of escorts, it is very misleading to only "count the coins" as it were. All escorts generally earn their most money within the first year or so of being "fresh". After that unless they are highly "rated" things taper off and it becomes "work" in the true sense. Certianly after several years, especially with younger and younger girls coming on the scene daily, earning potential goes down. So girls find themselves working harder to make equal or in some cases less money.

Suppose things are as you say and young TS's turn just one trick a day, on eros. $250/day * 7 days a week * 50 weeks a year =$87,500/year and probably no debt.

As compared to the most senior physics professor I know ~$78,000/year... with a car note, and mortgage to pay. Forget about it.

A barely legal young TS ought to make those big bucks while they can and buy real estate with it. By 21-25 they would not need to worry about money ever again.

Oh and Shining star. Don't tell anyone here about how to be a woman. Odds are we have been doing it longer and better than you IRL.

Yeah in a perfect world those numbers work real well,however I can count on one hand(with a few fingers to spare) how many hookers,porn stars,strippers I know...and i know more than any 10 men should know...have actually worked hard,saved their money,made wise investments and got out....the sad reality is the girls get caught up in the fast $ easy drugs and designer clothes and before you know it that 21 year old charging 250.00 per trick is now 45,toothless and sucking cock for a rock...thats the real reality.

[Tail Gunner]

Yeah DJ, would have to say those numbers are a bit off the scale in the real world with maybe a few exceptions.

[Shining Star]

Suppose things are as you say and young TS's turn just one trick a day, on eros. $250/day * 7 days a week * 50 weeks a year =$87,500/year and probably no debt. As compared to the most senior physics professor I know ~$78,000/year... with a car note, and mortgage to pay. Forget about it. A barely legal young TS ought to make those big bucks while they can and buy real estate with it. By 21-25 they would not need to worry about money ever again. Oh and Shining star. Don't tell anyone here about how to be a woman. Odds are we have been doing it longer and better than you IRL..

One: I shouldn't put too much money on your bet about "being a "woman" longer than I". Am in my thirties and have been living as a "woman" since one was about twenty, even went to college as a "woman". So keep your snide remarks to yourself unless you are forty or older and can go toe to toe.

Your logic regarding earning potential and earnings is flawed on several fronts. First of all there is a word for what you are suggesting, and it is called money laundering. You cannot show up with a bag full of money and simply buy real estate, or any other major asset. First of all all cash transactions over $10,000 are reported to the government. In this post 9/11/01 world, even transactions below that amount which have a whiff about them are often reported. Now if your question was can it be done, of course otherwise there wouldn't be a category under the penal code for money laundering; however I wouldn't want to plan my future living in a home that one forever looking over one's shoulder for the IRS or some other government/LE agency might sieze. That senior physics professor may not earn as much as a hooker, (and who does), but at least if he is paying his taxes he knows what is his is his, and can sell, or pass on his estate without worrying about it being seized by the government.


Yes, strippers, porn stars, escorts and others engaged in criminal or illicit activity purchase real estate or big ticket items, but absent some very expensive and complicated legal representation, most simply just pay taxes on their earnings (or portion of), thus they are free to invest or use said earnings as they see fit. Even if you could/did purchase real estate, just how are you going to pay the taxes and upkeep? Don't tell me you intend to use your new "home" to turn dates, because that makes the property also subject to LE seizure as it is being used in the process of committing a crime. Even if you did your hooking elsewhere, unless you are paying income taxes, sooner or later the government is going ask you to come downtown and explain why and how a person with no visable means of support happens to own real estate. When non-payment of taxes and or criminal activity is suspected, the government has broad powers to take or at least place a lien against said property. To clear the matter up you are going to have to prove where your money comes from, something you cannot do without admitting committing serial criminal activity can you?

Every major hooker/madam bust to date be it local or the FBI, always has the charge of tax evasion and usually money laundering added to the mix. The charges are pretty easy for the government to win, unless the person charged can show a vaild paper trail of where their money came from and all proper taxes were paid when do. Al Capone beat, murdered, extorted, prositutied and other "fun" things his way through Chicago; what did he go to jail for? Tax evasion.

Your attitude suggest you are just like many other young trannie who think they have invented the game. Well little miss am here to tell you I've known and sadly buried more transexuals than you, so don't get on your high horse.

This new and rather sad trend of young ts girls, in fact ts girls of any age finding "escorting" as viable career, certianly a long term career is one of the reasons the transgender community is pretty much where it was 10 or even 20 years ago. Gay men and lesbians have moved on and up; they're getting legally married, rasing familes, holding down powerful jobs/professions and in general making their way into the mainstream of society. The best it seems most trannies can do is throw up their hands and sigh "oh,I'm a minority and discriminated against. I can't find work and or be accepted by society so I'll become a prosititue". There are gay, straight and transgendered persons putting themselves on the line to pass laws in our favor, and the best it seems our young generation can do is lie on their backs for bucks. Is it any wonder even some gay groups simply give up on transgenders/see them as holding back the cause.

You seem to have all the answers little Miss, look around to find "older" transexuals who spent their lives "escorting". Where are they now, all these girls who made thousands per week in their prime? I shall tell you, they are mostly in their graves, or living off welfare/Medicaid because they are "disabled" due to suffering from Aids. Where else are they? In jail, or traveling the world working VERY hard to make in a month what they used to make in a day, if that. Just like "old" porn stars, old broken down hookers do not usually live long or very happy retirements. Now if you plan on checking out of this world before you reach thirty,then have at it; but by no means should you nor anyother person mess up some young person's life by preaching prositution is a viable long term career.

SS

[BeardedOne]

Ladies! Please!

Just a brief observation here, in an attemt to avert some inevitable pie-throwing.

I see Brenda's post as just a basic view, not cut-stone-advice. It's true, at the gross-receipts level, that a sex worker rakes in a lot more than a teacher, cop, or health worker. Shame that (Not for the sex worker, but for the others).

I've never quite understood why, but my version of 'pillow talk' invariably involves business and finances. :shrug

One gurl I talked with said that a working day for her could be as many as seven or eight clients @ $300. Assuming a 24/7/365 work week, that's over three quarters of a million samollions in a good year (Though, for her own sanity, I would assume she takes a significant amount of downtime). Another said she averaged $5k a week. Still nothing small. Either way, it puts a hurtin' on Minimum Wage.

However, the fantasy formula doesn't account for the cost of doing business: Travel and hotel expenses, advertising costs, wardrobe, meals (One gurl told me that she realized she was dropping $50 a pop on room-service meals that would have been a fraction of the cost had she just strolled downstairs to eat in the restaurant), legal costs, fines, and life-maintenance (Rent, utilities, etc.) should she find herslef in a non-earning capacity, cooling her heals at the Tombs for a while.

To Shing Star's post:

Not a bit of bad advice/comment there (I seem to recall that you have some LE raltion in your past as well). Ever since the time of Scarface Al Capone, the feds have kept Tax Evasion in their vest pocket as a backup to any other charges they may file against a group or individual. If RICO fails, the Tax Code can usually slap a lid on them for a while as a substitute or a brake (LE loves to slow someone down that they are investigating, sitting still in a cell lets a lot of shit catch up and rain down upon you at your next hearing).

One of the gurls I spoke to knows the game very well. She is incorporated, accepts credit cards, files taxes, etc. No slouch, she will be well set in her future. Does she claim all of her income? Don't ask, don't tell.

A note on taxes: I see the IRS as not unlike a protection racket. Nice little life you got here, shame if something were to happen to it. Do I pay my taxes? Yes, I do. In return, among other things, they pave my streets, throw water on my burning house, and keep the crackheads across the street from invading my space. Overall, these services are realtively effective, though certainly far from perfect.

I've seen gurls post here about difficulties they've had with seeking employment, getting apartments/homes, credit grief, etc. Advice: Get on the radar in whatever way you can and to whatever extent you feel comfortable with. SS wasn't flinging shit, if you aren't in the system, or the numbers don't jive, Treasury is not an enemy you want to have.

Remember: The wages of sin are death, but after taxes and other deductions it's just a tired feeling.

[Shining Star]

Ladies! Please!

Just a brief observation here, in an attemt to avert some inevitable pie-throwing.


BB:

Thank you, and yes, am not trying to throw shade or cast judgments about; just trying to dispel some very bad or at very least naive ideas about how the world really works.

Have known many people, gay males, trannies, and straight girls who "worked" at one time or another. Most all did it as a means to an end and moved on. Also know many girls who have been working since one met them 10 or so years ago, and they are working still today with little to show for all their efforts.

Sure you can take money from escorting, pay taxes on that income then invest and save. But that requires expert professional advice to set up and carry out. Lots of young gay men who work the "circut" of male hookers to the rich and powerful get such "assistance" and end up very well in the end. By and large the IRS is only interested in seeing tax laws are followed. That means paying proper taxes on income as per the law. It does not care if you call yourself a "catering company" or "housemaid", long as you report the wages. However if your income/spending habits do not match up with that their databases say, you could be audited. Again, the worst will be you owe more money, but the IRS is not there to find out weather you are indeed a housemaid or whatever.

However, when anyone tries to move large sums of money, that is when the Feds and local government put you on their radar. For instance post 9/11/01 many girls who "travel" out of the country are finding it harder if not impossible to bring those earnings back into the states without declaring. It never was easy, but some girls just stashed the money on their person/in their bags or bought a bunch of travelers checks; but now that one is almost stripped searched at the airport, you better have that money declared,otherwise kiss it good-bye. Or, on the flip side, if you are running a major operation and or working "big league" owning assests and having cash all with no visable means of support or out of line with what one is claming to be (ie saying you are a massage therapist), and are busted, that is when the government can bring out all the tricks in it's bag of goodies. Being busted as a prossie means at worst less than a year in jail. Being busted on money laundering, RICO, failure to file/pay taxes etc, means several years as a guest of the Federal government.

[VictoriaJaye]

I think those girls who don't work in the industry and/or escort buisness have to work extra hard to make a living then those who work in the industry.Those in the porn and who escort don't have put as much effort into it because the buisness doesn't require that much interaction with everyday people who might not even know anything about trans.I just think it's much easier for a girl to get a photo shoot or a desperate chaser then a high entry job.I'm not saying they are any smarter but they have to work extra hard and should be giving their proper respect.

I dunno about that Legend..I KNOW I work "extra hard" whether its finding sex work or straight work...for sex work I have to exercise nearly every day, advertising, marketing and so on. for a straight job i had to go to college build skill sets, network create demo reels andso on.

my point is each field has a different set of circumstances and what is easy to some could be extra ordinarily difficult for others.

[BrendaQG]

OK so you all say sex work is universally bad. Since you have not specified the alternative... then I assume you have in mind college. If you think college is a panacea then think again. Please Consider the following.

College was the path I took. I even sacrificed 4.5 years of living as a girl to it. Here is how I financed it.

Due to my parents being middle class I could not get any needs based grants. Due to my grades in high school being low, due in no small part to hostile teachers and my gender non conformity, scholarships were out of the question. The last option was Student loans. I have now over $100,000.00 in student loan debt. Which is low... even hetero-gender normative people have much much more than that (like 275,000 or 300,000 !) . I would have to turn 400 tricks at $250 per pop to pay off the principal balance. That does not include the interest.

Granted that debt also includes graduate school tution. Just for the B.S. degree the number is $30,000.00 That works out to 120. Or three per week for 40 weeks to pay off the principal.

@ Shining Star

That is reality missy. You sound from your attitude like you think I was born yesterday. That I have nothing of value to teach. Or that I have lived a sheltered life like a bubble boy, hermetically sealed and reading books. :roll: :-/

Honey you and I probably know as many transsexuals, and age wise if you are in your "early thirties" you are only 5 years older than I.

While the girls I know who took the educated path are not dead what they are is really broke and some have turned to sex work. I don't blame them. You should not blame them. Like me we all looked for work, apply for jobs, and get turned down if we even get interviewed. What little faith I had in the straight world is basically gone. Here is why.

Look at those numbers. Should I work and slave to pay off that debt while others my age don't even have such a burden. While those who are wise save money, I should beg for work? While others build nest eggs...I should pay interest for 10, 20, or 30 years? :-?

Words cannot express how much I resent your condescension towards me I don't know what to say to you. I have done that other thing that you naively think is so great and know it is not.

Nothing is ideal. Not even college. Which, I have noticed, that people who use words like "shade" can have an almost mythic status. Like "If only I went to college everything would be perfect". As if educated people can't be biggots. Then they see my 27 year old college graduated ass doing what they are doing and... I guess some bitches like you cannot understand that.

@ Bearded one.

This is my stone cut advice to young transsexuals just starting out:

After graduating from highschool think about what you want to spend your life doing. What do you love to do? If the answer is you would love to be a CPA, or a PhD, or something then go to school. If the answer is to be a model, or actress, or artist, school really does not help with those. So don't waste your time or money. Make money how you can and save it. Open a bank account and keep it open. Pay taxes. etc. etc. etc. Never let anyone who did go to college put you down because I did and I still had to return to the stroll.

I really mean that and I wish that someone had the nerve to tell me that many years ago. I still would have went to university. I just would have had my eyes wide open instead of a rude awakening.

[Ecstatic]

Nothing is ideal. Not even college. Which, I have noticed, that people who use words like "shade" can have an almost mythic status. Like "If only I went to college everything would be perfect".
This is very true. I earned my BA summa cum laude in English 1981 (fortunately, college--especially a state university--was not so expensive back then), with a 3.88 GPA and a summer quarter at Trinity College, Oxford. I then went on to earn my MA in English in 1985 with a 4.0 GPA and a fellowship. Following that, I spent five years as an administrative assistant (because I could type) before landing a position as adjunct faculty at a junior college in 1991 where I was paid all of $1200 per course and had to hold another part-time office work job to, as my wife puts it, "support my teaching habit." I love teaching--it's the most rewarding, satisfying, and challenging work I've ever done--but I could not survive on the wages.

In 1995 I picked up a book, "Teach Yourself HTML in 14 Days" and in 1997 began working as a web designer. Being self-taught in HTML, CSS, PHP, SQL, and other languages/technologies, I am making many times today what I made thanks to my degrees, thus proving the old joke:

An engineering student asks, "how is that done?" An MBA asks, "how do we finance that and develop a business plan for it?" A philosophy major asks, "why is that done?" But an English major asks, "Do you want fries with that?"

[Mr_Man]

...

[tsmandy]

Yawn, zzzzz......

Just think how much emotional damage we could all save ourselves by leaving hooking behind and getting a job for Halliburton and moving to Tikrit or Baghdad.

I once heard someone say something wise about stoners in glass houses, but I forget what that was. Point being, I hate this discussion everytime it happens, which I thought was Kristy's point in the first place.

There is a global economy with billions of losers and a few million winners, and gasp some of those people happen to be sex workers, and gasp, some win some lose.

I'd rather watch you suck my titties then work at Exxon Mobil, just a matter of being able to live with myself at the end of the day.

xoxo
Mandy
http://mandytgirl.com

[tonkatoy]

This is an interesting thread. I do not know much about the escorting business, but I do know girls that escort, and I have experience running my own excavating company. I think where some of the girls fail is to not have any sort of business plan or even a simple budget. Having some defined goals is important in any venture, but I think that a lot of the girls try to avoid thinking too far into the future. It seems that earning potential could drop off fairly quickly in an escort's career, and if she has no other skills or options to fall back on, then she is pretty well finished. I think that our society in general today stresses the wrong things, people place far too much importance on fairly worthless, highly depreciating consumer goods, ie clothing, electronics, cars, and not enough emphasis on saving. It may not be glamorous, but you might be able to pay for retirement also. IT is amazing what some people of fairly meager means have been able to do through fiscal discipline and sacrifice. I feel sorry for people who have to buy designer (insert item here), as a means of defining who they are. Especially people who really can't afford it.

AS far as the original point of the thread, I think that the problem that ts porn causes is that it is geared towards guys who like pre-ops, while many, certainly not all, but many, ts women have srs as a goal. So it creates a body of men looking for ts women who do not want srs, or it portrays ts women as being comfortable being pre-op while many are only doing it to make enough to go post op.

[slinky]

while many, certainly not all, but many, ts women have srs as a goal. So it creates a body of men looking for ts women who do not want srs, or it portrays ts women as being comfortable being pre-op while many are only doing it to make enough to go post op.


I think you might be surprised at the number of "non-ops" out there.

[justatransgirl]

Yawn, zzzzz......

Just think how much emotional damage we could all save ourselves by leaving hooking behind and getting a job for Halliburton and moving to Tikrit or Baghdad.

I once heard someone say something wise about stoners in glass houses, but I forget what that was. Point being, I hate this discussion everytime it happens, which I thought was Kristy's point in the first place.

There is a global economy with billions of losers and a few million winners, and gasp some of those people happen to be sex workers, and gasp, some win some lose.

I'd rather watch you suck my titties then work at Exxon Mobil, just a matter of being able to live with myself at the end of the day.

xoxo
Mandy
http://mandytgirl.com

Thank you Mandy. Says it all.

Does Haliburton hire transsexual hookers?

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

PS - Mandy you are sooo cute! :-)

[tsmandy]

Thank you Mandy. Says it all.

Does Haliburton hire transsexual hookers?

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

PS - Mandy you are sooo cute! :-)

Halliburton absolutely hires Transsexual hookers. Apply now and leave a life of shame, poverty, and moral decrepitude.

Mandy
http://mandytgirl.com

PS. thanks Jamie, I like your style.

[SarahG]

while many, certainly not all, but many, ts women have srs as a goal. So it creates a body of men looking for ts women who do not want srs, or it portrays ts women as being comfortable being pre-op while many are only doing it to make enough to go post op.


I think you might be surprised at the number of "non-ops" out there.

I think people would be surprised how many people would go for SRS if it were free, with good doctors in more regions, without any system of hoops to jump through to obtain it.

I am curious how many nonops have adopted a nonop status as a defense mechanicsm to situations in which srs is insanely out of reach due to fiscal or other realities.

But you are correct, statistics and assumptions on stuff like this have very little in terms of accuracy imo. Its a shame it could not be more fully understood.

[Caleigh]

How is this for an equivalency

Ts Escorts are to the rest of the Ts population

as

Steroid pumping atheletes are to the rest of the other players

in that while there may be arguments ethical, moral, esthetic
on both sides, the one side of the equation is clearly
participating in activity that is illegal. This is not to say that
NONE of the people on the right hand side of the equations
are doing anything illegal, but that because of the state of
the laws as they stand ALL the people on the left hand side
ARE (unless prostitution has actually been taken out of the
penal code while I wasn't looking and while the cops were
looking the other way).

I make no judgements myself, I think that both performance
enhancing drugs and prostitution should be legal, but they
aren't. And because they aren't much of the population at
large see those that participate in such activities as morally
or ethically wanting. Who cares what those mid-west house
wives think? They do and so do politicians and actually so
do the television programmers who have been portraying TS
women as victims, criminals, psychotics, pathological liars
and generally as damaged goods for decades. Before the
spectre of Candis Cayne and her role in "Dirty Sexy Money"
is mentioned, let's see what her role is like over the entire
course of it's run.

[Ecstatic]

Interesting, Caleigh. Of course, prostitution is legal in unincorporated Nevada, but I doubt there are many TS escorts (or any TS) there.

[tsmandy]

How is this for an equivalency

Ts Escorts are to the rest of the Ts population

as

Steroid pumping atheletes are to the rest of the other players

in that while there may be arguments ethical, moral, esthetic
on both sides, the one side of the equation is clearly
participating in activity that is illegal. This is not to say that
NONE of the people on the right hand side of the equations
are doing anything illegal, but that because of the state of
the laws as they stand ALL the people on the left hand side
ARE (unless prostitution has actually been taken out of the
penal code while I wasn't looking and while the cops were
looking the other way).

I make no judgements myself, I think that both performance
enhancing drugs and prostitution should be legal, but they
aren't. And because they aren't much of the population at
large see those that participate in such activities as morally
or ethically wanting. Who cares what those mid-west house
wives think? They do and so do politicians and actually so
do the television programmers who have been portraying TS
women as victims, criminals, psychotics, pathological liars
and generally as damaged goods for decades. Before the
spectre of Candis Cayne and her role in "Dirty Sexy Money"
is mentioned, let's see what her role is like over the entire
course of it's run.

First of all, let us remember that there is an entire world out there beyond the borders of one of the most fanatical countries on the planet, i.e. the USA, and that in many of those countries the laws around sex work vary.

As for laws and morality. Well, in the US it was only a scant 5 years ago that laws banning gay sex were struck down by the Supreme court, and it wasn't that long ago in many southern towns that TS women were outlawed by transphobic penal codes. Not too mention the bevy of unjust and immoral laws that have existed since our wise genocidal slave-owning founding fathers created the constitution. Laws are instruments by which the powerful maintain the world they want to live in, which certainly does not include Transsexuals be they sex workers or nuns.

A true fight for the rights and economic well being of transsexuals will be one that incorporates sex workers rather than demonizes them.

I would rather remain a sexual deviant, a gender outlaw, and a sex worker, than try to mollify the Christian Facists. End of story.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

Isn't it wonderful when a post calling for support and a settlement of difference of opinion results in a seemingly trivial argument. :( SIGH!!!

Brenda and Shining Star you should be ashamed of yourselves and thank you Mandy for bringing the thread back round to where it should be .....

(ps ...... Kirsty not Kristy, just for future reference)

There is nothing wrong with a good debate interjected with some "suck on my titties" humour and even some light-hearted, to the face bitching. There is also nothing wrong with a thread diverging into different tangents.

However, all to often the written word can be taken in the wrong context, people can be offended where perhaps no real offence was ever intended .... and then a tiny indiscretion can escalate into a complete debacle ......

.... and well if that happens amongst a bunch of bloody trannies ..... well that might just be world war three :D

and the only plus side is that we all get to kiss and make up .......
:wink:

Just to bring things round again ..... this was not supposed to turn into an endorsement of the oldest profession but rather it is about whether those who do explore their "sex" either professionally (and that does not necessarily mean escort), or even for pleasure actually bring down how the trasngedered population are perceived ..... and whether those who do not openley convey their sexuality should turn their backs on ..... well us (largely).

Or whether, as imho, it should not really matter as this community is already so fragmented and very much a minority that we should be a little more tolerant and understanding of each other ...... even if one did work in Haliburton .....

Kali ...... I think that is a great analogy to use except according to some earlier posts one uses drugs to enhance their bodies and the other use their bodies to enhance their drug use ........ Doh!


AS far as the original point of the thread, I think that the problem that ts porn causes is that it is geared towards guys who like pre-ops, while many, certainly not all, but many, ts women have srs as a goal. So it creates a body of men looking for ts women who do not want srs, or it portrays ts women as being comfortable being pre-op while many are only doing it to make enough to go post op. Tonkatoy 2007

I think this, although not part of my thinking when I posted, is a very interesting point and could be a thread all of it's own ....... and could be extended to the whole attraction to a T-Girl versus a Girls own goals .....

Kirsty
xxx xxx

Make Love not Jam Doughnuts





Kirsty
xxx xxx

[Wicked Mira]

[quote="Caleigh"]How is this for an equivalency

Ts Escorts are to the rest of the Ts population

as

Steroid pumping atheletes are to the rest of the other players

Ouch!

Glad you're not making judgments.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

First of all, let us remember that there is an entire world out there beyond the borders of one of the most fanatical countries on the planet, i.e. the USA, and that in many of those countries the laws around sex work vary.

As for laws and morality. Well, in the US it was only a scant 5 years ago that laws banning gay sex were struck down by the Supreme court, and it wasn't that long ago in many southern towns that TS women were outlawed by transphobic penal codes. Not too mention the bevy of unjust and immoral laws that have existed since our wise genocidal slave-owning founding fathers created the constitution. Laws are instruments by which the powerful maintain the world they want to live in, which certainly does not include Transsexuals be they sex workers or nuns.

A true fight for the rights and economic well being of transsexuals will be one that incorporates sex workers rather than demonizes them.

I would rather remain a sexual deviant, a gender outlaw, and a sex worker, than try to mollify the Christian Facists. End of story.

Yes Mandy there is ...... There is Scotland :wink:

and our posts seemed to cross paths ....... ditto girl ...... Big Kiss!

Kirsty
xxx xxx

[slinky]

How is this for an equivalency

Ts Escorts are to the rest of the Ts population

as

Steroid pumping atheletes are to the rest of the other players




While I don't think that's the best analogy, I think it somewhat makes your point.



Kali ...... I think that is a great analogy to use except according to some earlier posts one uses drugs to enhance their bodies and the other use their bodies to enhance their drug use ........ Doh!


heeheehee

[Caleigh]

First of all, let us remember that there is an entire world out there beyond the borders of one of the most fanatical countries on the planet, i.e. the USA, and that in many of those countries the laws around sex work vary.

I will only restate my support for the total legalization of sex work. And
yes, my comments are U.S. centric but the largest portion of participants
on here seem to be from the U.S.


Not too mention the bevy of unjust and immoral laws that have existed since our wise genocidal slave-owning founding fathers created the constitution. Laws are instruments by which the powerful maintain the world they want to live in, which certainly does not include Transsexuals be they sex workers or nuns.

The laws against murder or theft aren't there just to protect the powerful,
they are there for everyone, unfortunately their APPLICATION isn't even.


A true fight for the rights and economic well being of transsexuals will be one that incorporates sex workers rather than demonizes them.

What I'm not understanding is how I am demonizing sex workers. I guess
that alot of people think that atheletes who use performance enhancing
drugs are really really bad people since that was my analogy.


I would rather remain a sexual deviant, a gender outlaw, and a sex worker, than try to mollify the Christian Facists. End of story.

Is this an either/or situation? Is automatically NOT being a sexual deviant,
a gender outlaw and a sex worker anti-revolutionary? I like to think of
myself as a 5th Column, but maybe I'm wrong and I have simply become
the enemy. That is for others to judge. And since this debate is on this
site, I'm sure I will be.

[BrendaQG]

@Kristy

No I am not ashamed of myself. Since when is heated discussion automatically bad?

You asked:

The niche market ....... The Tranny scene ...... escort or porn ........ It's undeniable and the internet has made it a large possibility .... opened many a backdoor you could say Wink

Anyway .... the point I suppose I am trying to get to is embracing what we have, ie the very aspect that has driven close to insanity as we go through youth and adolescence .... being transgendered..... can provide an opportunity to those who don't necessarily believe the sex industry is evil.

I answered in my frist post.


There is no real alternative for a young TS. Unless they have parental moral and financial support to pay for everything.

and


The elitist would say that school is always the answer. That's a idealizeation. College is not for everyone.

:-|
"escorting" was in the original post you wrote and so was the question I asked and answered. Then was told I was nieve about "real life". Like, why would a graduate know about the real life implications of higher education. Nor was I told these things in a nice way. By a few people. My mama raised an assertive bitch I am not going to take that kind of shit. [b]So point your shame fingers else where. [b]

[Azanti]

Nope....

[tsmandy]

Not too mention the bevy of unjust and immoral laws that have existed since our wise genocidal slave-owning founding fathers created the constitution. Laws are instruments by which the powerful maintain the world they want to live in, which certainly does not include Transsexuals be they sex workers or nuns.

The laws against murder or theft aren't there just to protect the powerful,
they are there for everyone, unfortunately their APPLICATION isn't even.

Actually I would argue that laws against murder and theft are primarily in place to protect the wealth and safety of the powerful. Especially if one takes into account the basis on which this countries wealth is founded, murder and theft played an essential role in the accumulation of wealth, and continue to do so on a massive scale. Penal codes have almost always been applied strictly against the rabble to keep them in line, and not at all against the wealthy. It's hardly even debatable. If by some chance laws designed to protect the wealth and safety of the countries elite, such as laws against (certain kinds of) theft and murder happen to protect everyone (debatable, especially in impoverished communities where the cops are just as scary as the "criminals") it is incidental, not integral to the administration of law enforcement. Perhaps this is a discussion best suited for the political forum though, wouldn't want to kill too many boners.


A true fight for the rights and economic well being of transsexuals will be one that incorporates sex workers rather than demonizes them.



What I'm not understanding is how I am demonizing sex workers. I guess
that alot of people think that atheletes who use performance enhancing
drugs are really really bad people since that was my analogy.

I'm not really familiar with the sports analogy since I tend to focus on other things. But the argument that sex work remains a drain on our communities because it is used as a political tool by middle America, is the one that I'm interested in challenging. I hardly said you were demonizing sex workers, read what I wrote.


I would rather remain a sexual deviant, a gender outlaw, and a sex worker, than try to mollify the Christian Facists. End of story.


Is this an either/or situation? Is automatically NOT being a sexual deviant,
a gender outlaw and a sex worker anti-revolutionary? I like to think of
myself as a 5th Column, but maybe I'm wrong and I have simply become
the enemy. That is for others to judge. And since this debate is on this
site, I'm sure I will be.

I think you are taking things way too personally. Of course this is not an either/ or situation. When in anything I have ever written have I been so black and white? I don't know you, and I certainly can't say whether or not you are a revolutionary, an anti-revolutionary, a facist or a pickle. You seem like a reasonable gal, and I was trying to tackle your analogy (which granted I found confusing) and argue that the fights for freedom of gender expression, freedom of sexual expression and sex workers rights are intricately intertwined.

I certainly would never accuse anyone of anything so banal as being anti-revolutionary.

My interest is in promoting a positive image for sex workers and an alternative to all the negative garbage that people say about us.

xoxo
mandy

[SarahG]

Actually I would argue that laws against murder and theft are primarily in place to protect the wealth and safety of the powerful.

In a sense you're correct. It seems that, in terms of global trends- that most, if not all societies have rules against theft. The specifics may vary from society to society, place to place, time to time but it takes alot of effort to think of an exception. Rape, on the other hand, is not a global trend in this sense. Theft is more universally bad and "against the rules" than consent violations.

As to the accumulation of wealth, I'm not convinced it is so condensely based on murder & theft. It can be, without question as seen in the pre-revolutionary period but the barons whom established unprecedented wealth during the 19th century industrial revolution were not amassing their income based on murder or theft in that same sense. Ok people died in coal mines, factories and other hazardous places of employment but that wasn't the intention, murder requires intending to cause someone's death. Collateral damage maybe negligent at times but that is a different thing entirely from murder. Theft requires consent violations in order to be theft, and as such the capitalistic form of buying & selling when- no other circumstances are involved can not constitute theft alone.

Legal systems are undoubtedly about only order, things like justice, revenge and redemption are secondary if present at all however ideological differences do come to play beyond that, for instance our system is setup so that we rather have 10 guilty parties go free than allow 1 innocent party be falsely convicted (hence why people get off on technicalities at times) whereas by comparison, China, is setup in the reverse manner and would rather execute 100 innocent citizens than let a guilty party remain free.

[Kirsty Scott TG]

Brenda hon,

The finger pointing was meant in a light hearted manner and intent to highlight the irony of a topic calling for support and tolerrance resulting in a bit of antagonism. I don't actually think you should be ashamed of yourself ....... again that is the last thing I want for any of us .....

Your mama taught you well, please do not stop being assertive. However ......


...... I guess some bitches like you cannot understand that.

..... sometimes assertiveness can all too easily be mistaken for aggression.

As for the rest of of your arguments and discussions girl I do not think there is anything bad, I feel we are on the same wavelength. As someone who spent 7 years at university (and no, that's not because I was kept back a few years ..... lol) I concur with your reasoned argument.

So just to reiterate, I do not think you are naive, I think you are an intelligent, articulate and beautiful girl ........ and I would love to learn alot more about Brenda an how she has arrived at this stage in her life.

It's just that when on-line, and in particular amidst a community where many are so fragile the written word can be a cutting tool. Please just be cautious and not impetuous.

Kirsty
xxx xxx

[Kirsty Scott TG]

I like to think of myself as a 5th Column, but maybe I'm wrong and I have simply become the enemy. That is for others to judge. And since this debate is on this site, I'm sure I will be.

Kali there is nothing wrong with being the fifth column ...... the first four are just there to open us up :D

As for being the enemy, I think not ..... you are a Divine Pandrogyne, and although my dictionary seems to be broken where that word should exist I assume it alludes to a deity. I think it is safe to say that, without knowing you or speaking to you, the quantity of posts you have submitted on "this site" without being removed would suggest you are friend rather than foe.

In light of that your contributions and (assumed) objective stand point are most welcome ......

Kirsty
xxx xxx

[Kirsty Scott TG]

My interest is in promoting a positive image for sex workers and an alternative to all the negative garbage that people say about us.

You know this Mandy ...... If the general public were open minded enough to sit back and listen to girls like you (and the others who have contributed here) ......... then perhaps your interest may be fulfilled .......

Kirsty
xxx xxx
You would of course have to stop showing your titties to be taken seriously :wink:

[jpheeled]

Pop goes the weasel... :wink:

[tsmandy]

As to the accumulation of wealth, I'm not convinced it is so condensely based on murder & theft. It can be, without question as seen in the pre-revolutionary period but the barons whom established unprecedented wealth during the 19th century industrial revolution were not amassing their income based on murder or theft in that same sense. Ok people died in coal mines, factories and other hazardous places of employment but that wasn't the intention, murder requires intending to cause someone's death. Collateral damage maybe negligent at times but that is a different thing entirely from murder. Theft requires consent violations in order to be theft, and as such the capitalistic form of buying & selling when- no other circumstances are involved can not constitute theft alone.
.

Like I said, maybe we should take this discussion over to the politics forum, before I kill everyone's boner by talking about things like slavery, the North American Indian Holocaust and resulting land expropriation which absolutely created the foundation of wealth that has persisted to this day. And those are just the large scale foundations of this countries wealth, not even looking at the repeated massacres of union organizers by company guards (which absolutely worked to instill a climate of fear and thus created conditions for obscene profits, in my book check one for murder check two for theft), pogroms against Chinese, Japanese, Phillipino, Mexican and indigenous workers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, on to the invasion of the phillipines, the destruction of Haiti and Cuba, the creation of fiefdoms in Latin America, and on and on. Massive wealth did not accrue through kind acts of hard work, rather it occurred through (as I said) theft and murder. Historical cases abound, and only ideological blindfolds can take those factors out of the equation.

If you wish to continue this discussion elsewhere, I would be happy (though my tolerance for long winded discussions is limited) to carry it on in the politics forum.

Hopefully that explains my position.

xoxo
mandy