Judges slam ladies-room door on drag queens

[popperluv]

Got this from an article in todays paper


"What a drag! Men who dress as women don't have the right to use ladies bathrooms, an appeals court has ruled.

The decision by the Appellate Division came in the case of a Queens AIDS group, Hispanic AIDS Forum, that sued after its Jackson Heights landlord refused to renew its lease.

The landlord wanted the group to agree in writing that its transgender clients - men who identify psychologically with women and dress in female clothing - would not use the ladies room in the building.

The group sued, charging the landlord was violating state and city human rights laws.

But in a 4-to-1 decision, the appellate court found the forum's clients were merely prohibited from using the rest rooms based on their biology, like all tenants.

In a scathing dissent, Justice David Saxe said the majority had missed the point of the lawsuit and were guilty of misstating its claims.

A lawyer for the group, Edward Hernstadt, said it's considering whether to appeal the decision or amend and refile the suit.

"I think [the decision] does a terrible disservice to transgendered people and denies the reality of transgendered people in New York," Hernstadt said.


Helen Peterson

Originally published on March 31, 2005"
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/295116p-252687c.html

[Ecstatic]

Well of course there's a huge difference between a CD and an m-t-f TS. The only real solution is what is done in the UK and CA and other relatively enlightened places, where a TS can change their gender on their driver's license. If the issue arises, produce your driver's license which will indicate M or F. Gender ID transcends sexual organ ID in my book.

[Vicki Richter]

That would be funny if bathroom attendents started checking ID. haha

[Ecstatic]

The whole thing is funny and laughable, except for how absurdly real it is. You'd think that how a person looks is what counts (assuming that girls sit in stalls and don't stand, with their feet facing the wrong way, lol).

[popperluv]

I think its great more chance for me to meet a hot TS in the mens room.
:P

[WendyWilliams]

Once I was in a hick airport I walked in the bathroom went in the stall (sp) and my phone rang so I started talking well since it was family I spoke with my normal southern voice (which is deep no shame) and I hear a lady say "do you hear a guy". I hang up the phone and walk out and Im washing my hands next thing two female cops walk in and are looking in all the stalls and they look at me and say "have you see a guy in here" and I laughed and said "not at all".

LOL
Funny story

[Ecstatic]

That's just too funny, Wendy! LOL!

[Felicia Katt]

. If the issue arises, produce your driver's license which will indicate M or F. Gender ID transcends sexual organ ID in my book.

If you have to show ID to prove you are a woman, how much of one are you, really? Being a lady is much more than having an F on your license.

Felicia

[Ecstatic]

Oh, absolutely. But why would someone who appears to be a woman--I mean not someone who is obviously a man in drag--be challenged upon entering the F restroom at all? It goes to show how absurd it really is, I think.

[thanos]

The ruling makes no distiction between TGs and CDs. While this may seem funny, it's really not. As far as most everyday (read: persons who never come in contact with transsexuals other than on maury and jerry) people go, there is no difference between a TG and a CD.

[Caleigh]

i'm shocked to hear that decision for two reasons

a) if i remember the whole situation correctly, the drag queens were
using the womens washroom yes, but the building had been rented
out to them for a special event and the building (and it's washroom)
were not open to the public.

b) the city of new york passed an initiative stating (to paraphrase)
that anyone presenting themselves as female should be treated as
female. http://www.nyagra.tripod.com/IntNo24.html

the above bill does not mention restroom facilities specifically so i
guess that there is the argument that no one was being denied use
of facilities, just the womens, they were free to use the mens.

the original story makes it clear that this party the drag group was having
went on all night into the morning and then families came in for a swim meet or something and they were scandalized by the scene.

[Ecstatic]

The ruling makes no distiction between TGs and CDs. While this may seem funny, it's really not. As far as most everyday (read: persons who never come in contact with transsexuals other than on maury and jerry) people go, there is no difference between a TG and a CD.
Yes, but how would they know? Are they running genital scans when you enter the restroom? Or was it in this case because all attendees who appeared to be women were known to be men in drag? There seems to me to be a big difference between an "everyday" situation (a TS in a restaurant goes to use the women's room) and a singular event where participants are known to be CDs or TSs. Yes, most people wouldn't know or care to know the difference between a TG and a CD, but without prior knowledge, would they?


the original story makes it clear that this party the drag group was having went on all night into the morning and then families came in for a swim meet or something and they were scandalized by the scene.
That makes sense. Whenever there's overlap between such disparate groups using common facilities, problems can arise. Perhaps the event exceeded its contracted time limit?

[Chica]

i heard of a similar (it may be the same story) but it was from UK and there was 2 crossdressers and 1 transsexual, whereas the transsexual had all the necessary operations, and the 2 crossdressers were not allowed in the womens loo, whereas the transsexual was, i see that as fair, as i dont see crossdressers as women, just as men who want to live oppositely for a certain period and have no desire to change

[Vicki Richter]

Most cross dressers are hetero too. Sorry this is a fact. There may be a number who would experiment, but there are a much larger contingent who have no interest in men.

What is to prevent a pervert from putting on a dress and going into the ladies rooms? I think there needs to be some balance in the force. You have to have moved to some point up the food chain.

I wasn't a big fan of Wendy's story either. It's not funny to get clocked like that and freak women out in the restroom and get reported to the police. It's up to all of us to do our best to represent transsexuals. If your voice is deep or whatever, work on it. This isn't a slam on you Wendy... It's just something I feel strongly about. I think that is why being TS is such a WIP (work in progress).

By the way Thanos... A CD is a TG... Just like a TS is a TG. TG is the larger distinction for the "family". Just like law enforcement officer could include local PD, highway patrol, border patrol, and ATF.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Most cross dressers are hetero too. Sorry this is a fact. There may be a number who would experiment, but there are a much larger contingent who have no interest in men.

What is to prevent a pervert from putting on a dress and going into the ladies rooms? I think there needs to be some balance in the force. You have to have moved to some point up the food chain.

I wasn't a big fan of Wendy's story either. It's not funny to get clocked like that and freak women out in the restroom and get reported to the police. It's up to all of us to do our best to represent transsexuals. If your voice is deep or whatever, work on it. This isn't a slam on you Wendy... It's just something I feel strongly about. I think that is why being TS is such a WIP (work in progress).

By the way Thanos... A CD is a TG... Just like a TS is a TG. TG is the larger distinction for the "family". Just like law enforcement officer could include local PD, highway patrol, border patrol, and ATF.


This is a VERY slippery topic to deal with. I have no idea what the answer is. But I have seen Post-Ops that are total, wacked out perverts and have NO idea how to act in a womens restroom, and also, some hetero CD's that act more "proper & ladylike" than a lot of GG's.


So much of this comes down to how we, as individuals, act and/or look when we are in the restroom.


As a side note.... I also know that several years ago, in CA, two bodybuilding GG's were told they could not use the womens restrooms at some public event. They even showed the police their drivers license's that had "F" marked on them, and the police didn't take that to be enough. They were escorted to the security tent where they were made to DROP their pants to prove they were female.

I belive the city & police depatrment later got their asses sued off.

[Felicia Katt]

If the concern is about inappropriate behavior in the ladies room, regulate behavior. In other words, ban perversion not a whole group, just become of some small subset of its members may be perverse. I have met some post ops who would fit into that category. They should have no more rights nor be accorded more respect automatically than someone who may be "lower on the food chain", but presents themselves with higher class.

Felicia

[Vicki Richter]

I am not arguing that, but men as a gender are more likely to be fucked up. Men are more likely to rape or be involved in violent crime. Men typically are responsible for causing wars and genocide. Men get caught taking web cam pics up women's skirts to later publish on the Internet or to private pervert groups. Men are more likely to become holy men as a conduit to molesting kids. Men are more likely to be mass murders. Men are more likely to cheat (although that gap is closing). Men are more likely to design instruments of death and destruction such as the AK-47, A-Bomb, and the Colt 45. Do women do these things? Yeah well sometimes, but we all know that statistically guys are more wired that way. (No not all guys obviously).

So what does any of that have to do with the restroom. The volume of guys doing "bad or irresponsible" things has lead women to have an inherent distrust for men in any setting where they might be taking their clothes off. My mom, for example, thinks that there are cameras or two way mirrors in dressing rooms.

Like you were saying, does that make a TS better than a CD? Well no. But what is the likelihood of a guy simply dressing up as a woman so he can put a mirror under the stall of a restroom and wank off, vs getting implants, taking hormones, and living as a woman to do the same thing? It's very unlikely that someone will become TS just for reasons of perversity vs putting on a wig and saying, "I identify as a woman" to get a cheap thrill. How far can that go? Rest room? Changing room at a gym? Dressing rooms at department stores? It's really just a matter of time once laws open the flood gates and then all TG's pay the price for the acts of a few.

Is it fair for the good ones? No. But is it fair that priests who have dedicated their lives to God and aren't freaky perverts get jokes made about them? Is it fair that there is now a huge level of scrutiny over all of them because of the acts of a (relative) few? Pretty much the same with cub scout counselors, etc.

Vicki

ps - I've said it before, but I was at Henrietta Harris (or whatever that lezzie club is in NYC) and found their restroom to be the most disgusting peed on everywhere filth that I have ever experienced. Gross. My points have nothing to do with behavior and being lady like.

[Felicia Katt]

I'm not suggesting that everyone should greet every gender variation with open arms and open stall doors. But policies and laws should target behaviors, not individuals. And individual concerns are not a sound basis for more generalized objectives and restrictions. It should be equally illegal for anyone of any gender or gender status to use a rest room for a cheap thrill or for any immoral purpose. If you are there to take liberties, pictures, or phone numbers, rather than a dump, you should be taken to the exit.

Felicia

[WendyWilliams]

Vicki my dear I was in the bathroom stall and as I said I was on the phone with a family member who does NOT accept "wendy" so I wasnt trying to "freak" anyone out. Obviously as I said they didnt Single me out.

W.

[Vicki Richter]

Felicia,

Are you saying that we, as a society, don't take the behavior of the worst few and apply it to entire social groupings? Society, particularly ours, is fickle and using my example, I'm sure one can see how a negative social stigma could be applied. So if a few people were taking liberties and it got press, how jaded would that make society toward TG's?

Of course I also have a negative feeling about TV talk shows who play, "guess the man". I have friends who have done it and I am sure there are some positives in some respect. However, it's also a pretty degrading method to get free press in my opinion.

I would love to see a TS like a Vanity or Danielle in a regular starring role on a mainstream sitcom, likely a light comedy type show. Something like that would do worlds for TG's in general. I think Something About Miriam, despite it's "kooking the guys" atmosphere, was probably a good thing. People could see a TG in all her glory, looking great, and acting normal.

but I digress...

Wendy,

You essentially said you were talking in a manly voice and women said, "Is there a man in here?" or something to that effect. Seems like there might be a time and place for that and not in a busy woman's room.

V

[WendyWilliams]

No VIcki my dear go back and read my post AGAIN, I said the phone rang and it was a family member so I spoke in my natural voice (southern deep accent) and the ladies over heard me,,,,,,,,thats what I said please dont make it a bigger deal than it was. I never went in their in a "deep manly" voice I said I spoke in my natural voice because I was on the phone witha family member. That was all and thats all I meant to say.

Wendy

[WendyWilliams]

Oh yea I do agree with you Vicki that if someone was doing it to "cause an uproar" or bring attention it would be wrong, but that wasnt my intentions.

W.

[Felicia Katt]

Vicki, I think we are talking about two different but interrelated things here: rules and regulations vs societal acceptance and advancement for the transgender community. Rules are almost always about behavior not against those groups that most often commit it. Most hate crimes are perpetrated by racists, but we make lynching illegal, not membership in the Klan. The only exception I can think of is part of the post 9-11 response, which outlawed membership in groups that were alleged to sponsor terrorism. I don't think this will last, since you could make the argument that marching in a St Patricks day parade provides aid and comfort to the IRA. It just runs afoul of the right of free association guaranteed under the Constitution. (The whole so called Patriot act is largely unconstitutional in my opinion, and brings to mind what Benajmin Franklin said. Those who would exchange liberty for security deserve neither)

As far as the societal impact, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Its up to the individual, first and foremost, to behave properly. And its up to our community to try to keep those who misbehave better in line. Unfortunately, the thousand girls who don't act disruptively get no press and the one girl who misbehaves in a rest room shows up on Cops, or Howard Stern.

While I wish the Talk shows were less tabloid, I think overall they are positive, in that they help dispel the idea that all tgs are freaks or truck drivers in drag. When people see girls like Danielle or Allanah or Gia, their misconceptions die, and hopefully a new, more respectful understanding is born.


Felicia

[Vicki Richter]

Muahhaha. Felcia... My new arch-nemesis on H.A.!!!

:P

[Felicia Katt]

I'm not sure I can measure up as nemesis. The only iron I pump is a curling one :)

Felicia

[cruiser]

Goody...a Katt fight!!! :o) (I know it's a bad joke)

[Darkholme]

after a fight you can always kiss and make up

[Felicia Katt]

what did you want us to kiss? LOL

meow

Felicia