[Off Topic] Death from being not well off...

[peggygee]

:popcorn

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/tea14x3.jpg

[peggygee]

Thanx 4 the input Peggy :roll:

That was me bookmarking my place, so that I can get back to this
topic, as well as to observe the responses.

Indeed I do have a number of opinions on the matter, but as the hour
is late, I am unable to give an appropriate response.

Also lately, I really have been eating a lot of popcorn, and drinking a
lot of tea. :wink:

[lincspoacher]

I'm not a Socialist .. never have been .. never will be ...

But in UK we have a stupid Post Code (Zip Code) "lottery" where some Regional Health Authorities will provide life-saving drugs such as Sutent and others won't .. the whole concept being based purely on money !

I believe that if we have a National Health Service then that's precisely what it should mean .. "National" .. not allowing various Area Authorities to do their own thing.

I've never paid for private health care either .. not because of my political beliefs but because I've paid my Taxes & National Insurance Contributions since I left school at 16 .. I served my time in HM Forces and am still paying Income Tax on my Pension ..

What angers me is that "registered" drug addicts can actually register as being "Disabled" and so claim Disability Benefit .. (they chose to become junkies) .. so why should the rest of us subsidise their "habit" from the Taxes we pay ?

Absolutely ludicrous,when my 80 year old Mother,who suffers from chronic Arthritis & acute Angina is unable to get a "Home Help" or any financial assistance because she is £2.00 (approx $4.00) per month above what the Govt says she needs to live on,because she receives a Widow's pension from my late Father's job.

This is one seriously screwed up Country ... :evil:

Bye for now,

Poacher.

[DJ_Asia]

About a year ago i developed a rash on my neck that looked like a massive hicky...bluish black...just gross...not to mention it itched like hell.

I went to the emergency room in a very modern hospital here in Thailand.I was able to see the doctor within 5 minutes of walking thru the front door.He diagnosed me,treated me, and I bought medication all for under 20 usd.

Now there are many reasons as to why a 20 dollar hospital visit in Thailand would cost well over 500.00 in america...if not more.But thats another topic....sorta.

Fact is like so many things about the world today..it shouldnt be like that,but it aint gonna change.

[arnie666]

Part of the problem is local Health authorities only have limited budgets and the Government is quite happy to let health care tourists in to the UK to access our health care. The NHS gives first class treatment the vast majority of the time and I for one am quite happy for my taxes to go toward helping others who are having a hard time because one day I will need it.

The being said I want my taxes to go the right people not bloody free loaders . We need much stricter immigration policies to stop that kind of thing happening.The last time I was in casualty when one of my muckers was having his head stitched after falling on someones fist there were loads of people there who couldn't speak a word of English.

Also the NHS has funding priorities wrong and would rather spend money on needless plastic surgery such as breast implants and also stomach stapling for fat people who can't lose weight by themselvess. Make the bastards run over sand dunes on point of bayonet.

I believe doctors need to have much more input on decisions over the NHS than politicians or civil servants as they are in the front line. We certainly don't need any more money for the nhs we just need to sort out how it is spent.

But before we get on our high horses we need to remember this ins't the first case where drugs that may have helped have been denied and to play devils advocate if the drugs were experimental then the LHA can say they would be failing in a duty of care if they gave out experimental drugs. Personaly though if I knew I was going to die I would take a risk.. I don't know if this was the case here though. If there is only a certain percentage chance of success of using said drugs the LHA need to weigh the costs/ benefits.Rember the NHS is universal health care and tough decisons need to be made.

Personally though i would concentrate on freeloaders and wastes of oxygen not good citizens such as Wilson.

[lostinasia]

Gee, let's just give everyone anything the like for free just because they have no money :!: :!:

[lincspoacher]

I would totally agree with the statement that the NHS provides excellent service for the majority of the time .. I've certainly no complaints .. having had more than my share of treatment over the years (but that's another story) ... & I'd agree about tightening our immigration policies ..

Not far from me,in North Yorkshire .. they're closing a small local Hospital,with a very busy Casualty Unit (in a a popular Seaside resort) & the only Maternity Unit for 40 miles around.. with the loss of over 200 jobs ... and at the same time taking on TWO Managers to "oversee" the process ... is it just me,or are the lunatics finally running the asylum ?

As for "experimental" or "not proven" drugs .. that's just a convenient excuse for NICE (National Institute for Clinical Excellence) to hide behind .. their real agenda is money ...

Sure,the NHS has a limited budget,sure it has to go a long way .. the answer is to shed a load of over-paid & under-employed Managers .. not Dr's & Nurses at the "sharp end" ... Grrrr

But as has already been said .. it ain't gonna change .. and I ain't holding my breath ...

Bye for now,Poacher.

[turlough]

Sorry about what happened but thats what happens when the government runs things -anything.They would rather spend the $ on managers who dont do anything real or positive than where its needed.My wife works for city gov't.and thats how it is but when its life or death is when it really matters and might get noticed.I hope the people here in the U.S. realize this and dont fall for "free health care" because we will be paying(a lot more)in taxes and lives.

[lincspoacher]

The root of the problem is that successive,spineless Governments (of every political stripe) have allowed the service provided by the NHS & paid for by the British Taxpayer to be abused .. in the interests of garnering a few more grubby little votes ..

We have a reciprocal agreement with our European neighbours to provide free,emergency care at point of need .. the costs bing sorted out by respective Govts later (via Form E111) .. so they're not the problem ..

The problem is Illegal Immigrants & so-called "Health Tourists" .. many from oil-rich Countries .. who come here,knowing they are ill,specifically to receive free treatment for themselves or their "extended" families ..

In order to receive free NHS treatment (other than in a life-or-death situation) one should have to produce valid proof of paying into the UK system .. in the case of Foreigners who receive emergency treatment .. a bill should be rendered on completion of that treatment .. most sensible,responsible people take out Holiday Insurance these days anyway ...

Those UK residents who are too idle & feckless to work & therefore do not contribute to the system should also be denied treatment .. including those who's "vicious" habits (like drug abuse) have contributed to their medical condition ...

Perhaps then there would be sufficient money in the coffers to treat those who have contracted illnesses (through no fault of their own) such as Cancer etc to be treated ...

Bye for now,

Poacher.

[peggygee]

Part of the problem is local Health authorities only have limited budgets and the Government is quite happy to let health care tourists in to the UK to access our health care. The NHS gives first class treatment the vast majority of the time and I for one am quite happy for my taxes to go toward helping others who are having a hard time because one day I will need it.

The being said I want my taxes to go the right people not bloody free loaders . We need much stricter immigration policies to stop that kind of thing happening.The last time I was in casualty when one of my muckers was having his head stitched after falling on someones fist there were loads of people there who couldn't speak a word of English.

.....





The problem is Illegal Immigrants & so-called "Health Tourists" .. many from oil-rich Countries .. who come here,knowing they are ill,specifically to receive free treatment for themselves or their "extended" families ..

In order to receive free NHS treatment (other than in a life-or-death situation) one should have to produce valid proof of paying into the UK system .. in the case of Foreigners who receive emergency treatment .. a bill should be rendered on completion of that treatment .. most sensible,responsible people take out Holiday Insurance these days anyway ...



As promised I have returned to the thread, and I have perused the posts,
as well as the BBC articles on Mr. Anthony Wilson. There are a lot of
interesting responses.

On the OP's original question I do have a number of thoughts, but the two
quotes above have piqued my interest, and generated an additional
question.

Lincspoacher, and arnie666 tend to feel that one of the major problems
with NHS, is it's allocation of funding and providing of services to
immigrants.

In many instances these immigrants will be from former colonies of the
UK, or to countries with commonwealth status.

My question is do either of you gentlemen feel that there is an obligation,
either ethically for the previous colonization of these countries. Or do
you feel that due to the current commonwealth status of many of the
immigrants from these countries that they are entitled to health care
under NHS.

And a follow up question the deceased Mr. Wilson, and the responders to
this thread have alluded to cosmetic and elective surgeries (breast
augmentation, liposuction, etc). Thus my question is what is your opinion
on using NHS resources for the treatment of the transgendered.

[lincspoacher]

Peggygee ...

Firstly ... "Ethics" is a County to the East of London .. Essex (but Ethics if pronounced with a lisp) .. :wink:

Moral obligations & Ethics are all very well provided you have the financial resources to play at being "Lord & Lady Bountiful" .. we don't .. hence the reason for this thread starting ..

All of our former Colonies & Commonwealth Countries couldn't wait to see the back of us .. they wanted their "Independence" ..

So,they got it .. but "Independence" means just that .. standing on your own two feet,not constantly whinging & holding out the begging-bowl .. as well as "Rights" Independence also carries certain "Responsibilities" .. like feeding & caring for one's own people .. the fact that almost all (except US,Canada,Australia,New Zealand & Hong Kong) have fallen into poverty is entirely the fault of their corrupt politicians,who'd far sooner finance a Civil War than shoulder their responsibilities to their own people ..

Incidentally,the right to free NHS treatment was never conferred on the former Colonies,Dominions & Protectorates in the first place .. and nor should it be now.

The citizens of those Countries are NOT UK citizens & are therefore NOT entitled to free treatment under the NHS.

As for the diagnosis & treatment of TG people under the NHS .. I have no problem with that whatsoever .. provided that during their working lives they contributed to the system by paying Tax & National Insurance Contributions ..in fact my former TS partner (who also happens to work for the NHS as an Operating Theatre Practitioner) is due to undergo GRS in October of this year .. in an NHS Hospital in London ...

Bye for now,

Poacher.

[peggygee]

Peggygee ...

Firstly ... "Ethics" is a County to the East of London .. Essex (but Ethics if pronounced with a lisp) .. :wink:

Moral obligations & Ethics are all very well provided you have the financial resources to play at being "Lord & Lady Bountiful" .. we don't .. hence the reason for this thread starting ..

All of our former Colonies & Commonwealth Countries couldn't wait to see the back of us .. they wanted their "Independence" ..

So,they got it .. but "Independence" means just that .. standing on your own two feet,not constantly whinging & holding out the begging-bowl .. as well as "Rights" Independence also carries certain "Responsibilities" .. like feeding & caring for one's own people .. the fact that almost all (except US,Canada,Australia,New Zealand & Hong Kong) have fallen into poverty is entirely the fault of their corrupt politicians,who'd far sooner finance a Civil War than shoulder their responsibilities to their own people ..

Incidentally,the right to free NHS treatment was never conferred on the former Colonies,Dominions & Protectorates in the first place .. and nor should it be now.

The citizens of those Countries are NOT UK citizens & are therefore NOT entitled to free treatment under the NHS.

As for the diagnosis & treatment of TG people under the NHS .. I have no problem with that whatsoever .. provided that during their working lives they contributed to the system by paying Tax & National Insurance Contributions ..in fact my former TS partner (who also happens to work for the NHS as an Operating Theatre Practitioner) is due to undergo GRS in October of this year .. in an NHS Hospital in London ...

Bye for now,

Poacher.

Whether colonization is the 'cause or the effect' for so many of the
problems of countries occupied under the Commonwealth is worthy
of a discussion unto itself. Another part of that discussion would be
should there be restitution for the resources taken out of the countries,
and the lives of the citizentry lost.

What is true is that these former colonies still have strong ties to the UK,
and that there is economic cooperation and trade between the two
entities.

At the risk of being too verbose I have listed a number of instances
whereby a person is able to receive free care under NHS. Also for
ease of reading I have boldened the sections that enable immigrants
to receive free care under NHS.

Who is entitled to free NHS treatment?

NHS treatment that is always free
In the UK, medical treatment for emergencies is always free. Certain other parts of medical care in Britain are always free to everyone. Treatment from certain NHS walk-in centres (which offer fast and convenient medical advice and care, and are located at various places around the country) is free when they are treating an emergency. Treatment for certain infectious diseases is also free, but this does not include HIV and AIDS, for which only diagnosis and connected counselling sessions are free for everyone. Family planning services and compulsory psychiatric treatment are universally free.

Free NHS treatment from a GP

People who are ‘ordinarily resident’ in the UK are entitled to register with (and be seen by) a GP for free. An ‘ordinary resident’ is usually considered to be someone who has legally been in the UK (or is planning to be in UK) for six months or more, and can prove that they are here for a settled purpose – for instance, they may be studying or working in the UK.

The rules around who GPs should treat for free are fairly flexible. A GP can choose to register overseas visitors as temporary residents, or, if they are in the UK for longer than three months, accept them onto their lists. Technically this could apply to failed asylum seekers or immigrants, although this is left down to the decision of the individual GP. If a GP decides not register an overseas visitor or treat them as a temporary resident, they can still treat that individual on a private basis, but this means that they will be charged.

Nationals of countries that are part of the European Economic Area (EEA), and who are carrying a European Health Insurance Card, are entitled to the same level of GP care that UK resident get, for conditions that arise during their stay. This includes on-going medical treatment, such as blood tests or injections.

In addition, asylum seekers or refugees who have been given leave to remain in the UK, or are awaiting results of an application to remain in the country, are eligible for free GP treatment.

Free NHS treatment at hospitals

Even if you’re entitled to free GP treatment in the UK, medical treatment from hospitals will not necessarily be free, unless your condition is considered to be an emergency. You can receive NHS hospital treatment for free if:

You’ve been living legally in the UK for at least 12 months (temporary absences of up to 3 months are ignored).

You’ve come to work in the UK, either as an employee or self-employed person. This does not include people on short business trips, and it only relates to people who are actually working, not just looking for work.
You’ve come to permanently live in the UK, and have had an application for permanent residence approved.
You’re studying in the UK on a course that lasts 6 months or more, or which, if it lasts less than 6 months, is substantially funded by the UK government.
You’re a refugee or asylum seeker, or are waiting for your asylum request to be considered.
You’re a UK state pensioner that spends up to six months a year living in another European Economic Area (EEA) country, but are not a resident of that country.
You’re working in an EEA country but are paying compulsory UK national insurance contributions.
You’ve been working abroad for no longer than 5 years, but have lived legally in the UK for ten continuous years at some point.
You’re from an EEA country but are referred to the UK for specified treatment with an E112 or E123 form.
You’re an unpaid worker with a voluntary organisation that offers services similar to those of a Health Authority of Local Authority social services department.
You’re employed on a ship or vessel registered in the UK or working offshore on the UK sector of the Continental Shelf.
You’re a member of the UK armed forces, or a UK civil servant working abroad who was recruited in the UK and employed by Her Majesty’s government.
You were recruited in the UK but work abroad for the British Council or the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
You receive a UK war disablement pension or war widows pension.
You’re a diplomat, or diplomatic staff, working in embassies or Commonwealth High Commissions in the UK.
You’re working abroad in a job financed in part by the UK Government in agreement with the Government or a public body of some other country or territory.
You’re a prisoner, or detained by the immigration authorities, in the UK.
You’re serving NATO personnel, posted in the UK, and are not using your own or UK armed forces hospitals.
You’ve been referred by your home country for specified treatment in the UK under the terms of a bilateral healthcare agreement.
If you don’t fit into any of these categories, you will still be able to get NHS treatment for conditions that occurred after arrival in the UK only, if you fit into the following categories:

Anyone who normally lives in another EEA member state but is visiting the UK.
Anyone, or the spouse or child of anyone, receiving a UK state pension who has either lived legally in the UK for 10 continuous years at some point or has worked as a UK Civil Servant for at least 10 continuous years.
Anyone, or the spouse or child of anyone, who is a national of a country that has signed the European Social Charter but is not entitled to be provided with services under a bilateral agreements (currently Turkey and areas of Cyprus not covered under the EEA arrangements) and is genuinely without the means to pay for their treatment.
Anyone, or the spouse or child of anyone, who has lived legally in the UK for 10 continuous years at some point but who is now living in another EEA member state or in certain countries with which the UK has a bilateral healthcare agreement.
Anyone who is entitled to receive industrial injury benefit from Israel if the treatment is in connection with the industrial injury.
Anyone living in a country with which the UK has a bilateral healthcare agreement.

So, what happens if you don’t fit into any of the categories that we’ve listed? Well, technically, you should then be charged for any UK medical treatment that you receive. If a hospital thinks that you need to be charged for treatment, you will usually be interviewed by an administrator. They will probably ask for any evidence that you’re entitled to free NHS treatment.

If you think that you will be charged for medical treatment, but can’t afford to pay, then you should still talk to a hospital administrator as they may be able to help you. The NHS is supposed to treat its patients in confidence, so even if you’re not living in the UK legally, your details should not be passed on. You could also contact other organisations for help, such as Citizens Advice Bureau. Citizens advice Bureau provides free information and advice, both online, over the telephone, and in person at their many locations around the UK. In some places they even operate from within local surgeries and hospitals.

For more information about who has to pay for NHS hospital treatment in the UK, and for other information such as which countries have reciprocal/bilateral healthcare agreements with the UK, see the Department of Health Website.

Treatment for sexually transmitted infections and HIV
People who think that they may have a sexually transmitted infection (STI) should usually visit a GP or a genito-urinary medicine (GUM) clinic to be tested. To find out where your nearest family planning or GUM clinic is, visit the Family Planning Association website.

These clinics offer advice and information, and provide STI testing and treatment. Testing, advice and counselling from these clinics is free for everyone, and medical treatment for all STIs except HIV is also universally free.

After changes to the law in 2004, free HIV treatment is now only available to those living in the UK legally. This means that people living in the UK illegally, who have had their asylum or immigration claims rejected or have not applied for legal residence, officially have to pay to receive antiretroviral HIV treatment through the NHS. 2

However, under the rules that allow everyone to have free NHS treatment in the case of an emergency, doctors may still choose to provide an ineligible patient with free antiretroviral drugs, if their CD4 count or viral load level is beyond a certain point, and if they deem that their health is in immediate danger. 3

People who aren’t sure whether they’re eligible for NHS treatment can get support and from HIV support groups. On our website we have a list of HIV-related organisations in London and ones organisations outside London; these groups may be able to help. For refugees or immigrants who are staying in the UK but don’t have official permission to be in the country, the refugee council may be able to help with HIV treatment issues.

[peggygee]

..

We have a reciprocal agreement with our European neighbours to provide free,emergency care at point of need .. the costs bing sorted out by respective Govts later (via Form E111) .. so they're not the problem ..

.


Bilateral healthcare agreement countries
List of countries with which the UK has bilateral healthcare agreements and the categories of people covered.

Contents Next Previous European Economic Area countries (EEA):
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus (Southern), Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Ireland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, UK, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. Switzerland by special arrangement.

Nationals of, and UK nationals in, the following countries:

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia, Croatia, Georgia, Gibraltar, Yugoslavia i.e. Serbia & Montenegro, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, Macedonia, Moldova, New Zealand, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan.

Residents irrespective of nationality of the following countries:

Anguilla, Australia, Barbados, British Virgin Islands, Channel Islands, Falkland Islands, Iceland, Isle of Man, Montserrat, St. Helena, Turks and Caicos Islands

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Policyandguidance/International/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074391

[mbf]

The problem is Illegal Immigrants & so-called "Health Tourists" .. many from oil-rich Countries .. who come here,knowing they are ill,specifically to receive free treatment for themselves or their "extended" families ..

In order to receive free NHS treatment (other than in a life-or-death situation) one should have to produce valid proof of paying into the UK system .. in the case of Foreigners who receive emergency treatment .. a bill should be rendered on completion of that treatment .. most sensible,responsible people take out Holiday Insurance these days anyway ...

Those UK residents who are too idle & feckless to work & therefore do not contribute to the system should also be denied treatment .. including those who's "vicious" habits (like drug abuse) have contributed to their medical condition ...

Perhaps then there would be sufficient money in the coffers to treat those who have contracted illnesses (through no fault of their own) such as Cancer etc to be treated ...

Bye for now,

Poacher.

i am simply apalled by this statement.

i pay taxes as well, and i dont mind that maybe 2 to 5 % of all people treated MAYBE exploit the system i pay for.

besides, many "illegal" immigrants in fact contribute to your economy, by working without insurance or other social security, working dirty or low payment jobs in restaurants, on farms etc.

i simply cant believe that in a western country like the uk you say people SHOULD NOT BE TREATED if they are ill . Is it funny to be sick????

another side note: u mentioned cancer in your post, so, lets say, you develop colon cancer, skin cancer or lung cancer - some wise ass money saver will stand up, and deny treatment to you because he found out u had a liking for pork, spend your summer holidays roasting on some beach or happened to smoke.

[lincspoacher]

Hi Peggygee,

I'm not quite sure what your point is precisely ..

I have no problem with "Legal" Immigrants ie those resident in UK lawfully,living their lives,paying Taxes etc and contributing to the system receiving NHS care ..

I do however object strongly to "Illegal Immigrants" being allowed to "milk" the system,paying nothing & taking everything they can grab .. if however,once all "Legal" UK Residents have been treated & if there is then money to spare .. consideration could be given to being "bountiful" .. I'm a firm believer in the old adage that "Charity begins at Home"

I would also point out that UK has a far more tolerant approach to "Illegals" than say USA does .. we don't employ armed Border Patrols for a start ..

That "Illegals" contribute to the economy of UK is a highly debatable point .. most send any money they earn (which they shouldn't be doing anyway) straight back home,so the UK as a whole gains nothing from their presence .. they are a drain on resources which we quite simply,cannot go on funding ..

I accept that we're coming from separate view points here & accept that like me,you're perfectly entitled to your own opinion .. and as Voltaire said "I would defend to the death your right to hold those opinions" ..

I don't however recall ever saying that being ill was "funny" ..

I did however say that people who have never contributed to the system should not benefit from it ... (I exclude those who are either physically or mentally unable to work & so cannot contribute) .. which I would have thought should have been fairly obvious ..

I used "Cancer" purely as an illustration .. in fact "some wise-ass money saver" did EXACTLY that to Mr Wilson & refused him life-saving drug treatment purely on monetary grounds ..

I'm a little confused by your references to having a "liking for Pork" .. "spending your summer holidays roasting on some beach" .. or "happened to smoke" .. ALL of which (however unwise) happen to be perfectly LEGAL activities (and from which the UK Govt derives some form of income via either Tax or Excise Duty)..

The use of prohibited drugs in UK is ILLEGAL ... therefore those who render themselves ill through participating in illegal activity should not expect to be treated in the same way as those who abide by the Law of the Land .. and most certainly should not be classed as being "Disabled" .. this is both a great insult & injustice to the genuinely disabled ..

One cannot expect to put oneself "outside" the Law when it suits .. but come scurrying back seeking the protection of the very same Law when things go wrong ...

Bye for now,

Poacher.