Marriage v. Living Together

[canihavu]

You've heard of the seven-year-itch. Researchers now suggest that spouses get restless around the three-year mark.

With such high divorce rates in the US, do you think that living together without getting married is a good alternative?

[Vala_TS]

I never understood why people bother getting married if living together is the same thing? In the past it used to be an incentive to stay together but with these divorce rates these days, it's just expensive.

Vala,

[Ecstatic]

My wife and I have been married for 26 years, and we lived together for 7 years prior to that. Marriage is right for some, not for others, but I highly recommend living together for at least 3 or 4 years before tying the knot. Then most of the issues that will arise will already have been dealt with.

Before we were married, for several years we shared everything equally: bank accounts, rent, cars, etc. We never had kids (other than our cats), so offspring didn't factor into our equation.

[Vala_TS]

Sharing bank accounts and house deeds is a mistake. I know a lot of guys who lost their houses because of this through divorces, to the guys, NEVER share your bank accounts or house deeds with anyone.

Vala,

[Ecstatic]

Vala, again I think it depends upon the people, but while that's not my situation, I actually agree with you. My situation (as many folks here know) is quite unusual, and I'm blessed to have married the woman I did. These things have worked out just fine for us, and after 32 years, I have no worries about the future. But I think I'm the exception here, and I would advise most couples to keep things as separate as they can.

[Vala_TS]

Well, congratulations to you. I wish you many more years of happyness together. But I think I will be on the cautious side about those sort of things. Even my own grandpa lost his house when he got divorced last year from his 2nd wife. Personally, I don't think I will be getting married for both personal and legal reasons but I most certainly won't be having any join ownership of anything with anyone.

Vala,

[crayons]

Sharing bank accounts and house deeds is a mistake. I know a lot of guys who lost their houses because of this through divorces, to the guys, NEVER share your bank accounts or house deeds with anyone.

Vala,

ditto. I'd take it all and run. :shock:

[melissacarter]

They would be better off getting married and not living together.

[castabyss]

Yeah, I think both options pretty much suck unfortunately. I have this theory that serious couples should spend a total of 3 months per year apart, whether all at the same time, or split up throughout the 12 months. Mystery keeps relationships alive and routine kills them for me.

CA

[rick_932]

I never understood why people bother getting married if living together is the same thing? In the past it used to be an incentive to stay together but with these divorce rates these days, it's just expensive.

Vala,

cosign. besides the financial benetifs, i dont really see the difference between being married and just living together. marriage is just a piece of paper to prove that you love each other. why do i need this paper to prove to my girl that i love her? she should know by my actions and how i treat her.

marriage? no thanks, just my opinion

[werwt22]

I had a girl I was thinking of marrying but ended up living with her for a couple years and realized she had a lot of things to work on before that ever happens. I'm not saying marriage is a bad idea, I just think you need to get an idea of how things are going to be by living with your significant other first.

[peggygee]

I never understood why people bother getting married if living together is the same thing? In the past it used to be an incentive to stay together but with these divorce rates these days, it's just expensive.

Vala,

cosign. besides the financial benetifs, i dont really see the difference between being married and just living together. marriage is just a piece of paper to prove that you love each other. why do i need this paper to prove to my girl that i love her? she should know by my actions and how i treat her.

marriage? no thanks, just my opinion

We live in a 'disposable society'.

If your television breaks, you throw it away and buy another one.
Microwave breaks, thow it away. The heels of your shoes run over,
throw them away.

Car breaks down alot, leave it in a bad neighborhood, and.... :roll:

I get the sense with the difference in the way that men and women view
relationships, that men are more apt to walk away from the relationship,
or at a minimum, men tend to be less sexually monogamous in a
marriage. We need look no further than the faceless profiles of this forum
to verify the accuracy of that last statement.

Yes there are finanancial benifits to marriage, but I strongly believe there
is a difference in the value that the genders place on marriage. Men are
loath to be 'caught' and women often dream and fantasize of the day that
they will wed.

[mbf]

We live in a 'disposable society'.

If your television breaks, you throw it away and buy another one.
Microwave breaks, thow it away. The heels of your shoes run over,
throw them away.

Car breaks down alot, leave it in a bad neighborhood, and.... :roll:


that holds true with marriage as well. i ve seen so many people getting divorced i really start thinking why they really bothered to get married in the first place.



I get the sense with the difference in the way that men and women view
relationships, that men are more apt to walk away from the relationship,
or at a minimum, men tend to be less sexually monogamous in a
marriage. We need look no further than the faceless profiles of this forum
to verify the accuracy of that last statement.

i dont think those myriads of faceless profiles mean much at all. first, many of those are phantasy-jockeys that most likely will never go that far and actually meet a TS. and, are those guys really married, or in a relationship? i doubt it for the most part.

maybe there is a generation gap in here. i am in my late 20ies and college educated (yes, even folx like me can get thru college with a degree, what more do u need to realize how low standards are these days? lol) and EVERY female student i met has her own career. so, they dont need a husband for financial benefits. which later leads to those high numbers of divorce, not exclusively, but its likely one of the main reasons.

[tgirlzoe]

At least as we discussed in my Sociology of the Family class, the numbers are about the same for the length of time people have been living together ~ i.e. the "seven year itch" will occur at 4 years into marriage if you were living together for 3 years before that. This is why it appears as though couples who live together prior to marriage get divorced earlier.

Personally, I don't believe in divorce. I've known too many kids coming out of it and even if it didn't really screw them up, it destabilizes them. My two housemates who I mentioned in the other thread are both products of divorced parents but they say that it just means they will work that much harder not to end up like their parents.

Obviously, there are cases when divorce is healthier than staying together ~ sometimes the best thing you can do with an abusive relationship is to walk away. I've been in an abusive relationship for over two years and I knew it was abusive from the beginning but I stuck with it out of confused feelings of obligation to help them until I finally gave up. I was in another two year relationship that had shades of disrespect but he only raised his hand to me a few times. The same goes with my mother. The emotional impact hurts worse and lasts longer than the physical impact. Sometimes leaving is the best thing you can do.

I voted for "No, living together without getting married is wrong." I don't think it's necessarily wrong, I just think that people expect things to be different whether they're married or not. People date to "test the waters", people move in together to "test" the relationship again, many people never move beyond the "testing" phase and become fully committed to the relationship. I'm fine with no-fault divorce being in the legal system but it doesn't really work in the culture.

A marriage certificate isn't a piece of paper that says "I love this person". A marriage is as much for the community as it is for the individuals. As my mother's note in the laundry room said, "Love is not a feeling to be felt, but an action to be learned." In the abusive relationship I was in, "I love you" was said a lot, especially in the aftermath of a fight but despite the profession of feeling, the respect and commitment wasn't there and that's the definition of love and the basis for a marriage or any relationship.

[Ecstatic]

I get the sense with the difference in the way that men and women view
relationships, that men are more apt to walk away from the relationship,
or at a minimum, men tend to be less sexually monogamous in a
marriage. We need look no further than the faceless profiles of this forum
to verify the accuracy of that last statement.

A lot has been made, by sociologists, anthropologists, biologists, and just plain folk, of men being more apt to roam and women more apt to home. And surely there is something to the biological imperative that men have to spread their seed as far as possible, versus women needing to nurture the young, who are wholly dependent upon them for the first several years of life (never mind the nine months in utero). But many women are far from sexually monogamous, and many men are, so as usual it's pretty complex.

But to me, the point of marriage is the nature of the commitment between two people: that may involve a civil marriage (which is a matter of public record and is accorded specific rights and obligations pending the government under which the two are married), a religious marriage (wherein the proclamation of the couple's commitment also incorporates the laws and principles of whatever religion they adhere to), or simply living together (which could run from convenience and passing desire to a lifelong commitment as deep as either of the first two).

[tsmandy]

It is illegal for me and my partner to get married. Even if it was legal, I don't see much legitimacy in terms of the state sanctioning my love life. I also think monogamy is stifling and marriage seems less important for us poly people.

[peggygee]

I get the sense with the difference in the way that men and women view
relationships, that men are more apt to walk away from the relationship,
or at a minimum, men tend to be less sexually monogamous in a
marriage. We need look no further than the faceless profiles of this forum
to verify the accuracy of that last statement.

i dont think those myriads of faceless profiles mean much at all. first, many of those are phantasy-jockeys that most likely will never go that far and actually meet a TS. and, are those guys really married, or in a relationship? i doubt it for the most part.

maybe there is a generation gap in here. i am in my late 20ies and college educated (yes, even folx like me can get thru college with a degree, what more do u need to realize how low standards are these days? lol) and EVERY female student i met has her own career. so, they dont need a husband for financial benefits. which later leads to those high numbers of divorce, not exclusively, but its likely one of the main reasons.

I'm inclined to agree. the jury may indeed by out as to whether the
faceless profiles belong to men in marriages, committed relationships,
or fantasy seekers, or a combination of all of the above.

I do however maintain my position that a man is more apt to stray
sexually from the confines of a marriage than a woman.

To your latter point about the career woman;

I believe that women have moved away from their previous historical
dependance on men for financial security. More and more women are
educated, have careers and are quite capable of fending for themselves.
And as you state if there are no financial reasons for a women to stay in
a bad marriage, then indeed she is 'herstory'.

As an aside, to the women reading this post, I often hear them mention
that they would be receptive to a man that would be able to assist them
in leaving the sex industry, and that if he wasn't willing to do that, then
he was attempting to get 'free' sex under the guise of a committed
relationship.

I'm reluctant to be the one to shatter the Richard Gere / Julia Roberts
'Pretty Woman' hopes of anyone. But the harsh reality is that if anything,
a man will be looking for a financial partner, not another dependant on
their W-2 form.

In today's economy it often requires two incomes to secure a decent
standard of living. Thus the husband will amost assuredly be looking for
his wife to have an income and to contribute to the betterment of them
as a couple, as opposed to her being a kept woman.

[mbf]

addendum: i have written my comments from the point of view of a white middle class male.

the whole situation is probably totally different for other races and/or class (yes, i think a lot of bs in "our" society is also class-based. just because the official propaganda has abandoned "working class" from its vocabulary doesnt mean it doesnt exist or it doesnt have a big influence on people)

[peggygee]

I get the sense with the difference in the way that men and women view
relationships, that men are more apt to walk away from the relationship,
or at a minimum, men tend to be less sexually monogamous in a
marriage. We need look no further than the faceless profiles of this forum
to verify the accuracy of that last statement.

A lot has been made, by sociologists, anthropologists, biologists, and just plain folk, of men being more apt to roam and women more apt to home. And surely there is something to the biological imperative that men have to spread their seed as far as possible, versus women needing to nurture the young, who are wholly dependent upon them for the first several years of life (never mind the nine months in utero). But many women are far from sexually monogamous, and many men are, so as usual it's pretty complex.

But to me, the point of marriage is the nature of the commitment between two people: that may involve a civil marriage (which is a matter of public record and is accorded specific rights and obligations pending the government under which the two are married), a religious marriage (wherein the proclamation of the couple's commitment also incorporates the laws and principles of whatever religion they adhere to), or simply living together (which could run from convenience and passing desire to a lifelong commitment as deep as either of the first two).


I'm a firm believer in biological imperative being the causal factor
for men needing to have sex with as many different individuals as they
do.

Indeed we see this behavior in other species in nature. If a male is
able to disseminate his seed to as many fertile females as possible, this
will aid in the propagation and survivabilty of the species.

Of course we are talking about primal urges here. Thankfully due to
societal constraints, individuals are for the most part able to limit their
carnal desires, or at least strike a healthy balance between sex for
procreation and sex for pleasure.

[tgirlzoe]

It is illegal for me and my partner to get married. Even if it was legal, I don't see much legitimacy in terms of the state sanctioning my love life. I also think monogamy is stifling and marriage seems less important for us poly people.

It's not illegal, it's just unrecognized because they idiotically consider it a same-sex marriage and idiotically don't recognize same-sex marriages. It's still a marriage, even if the State doesn't grant you the same rights as other married couples.

As for polyamory, I was engaged to my primary a couple years back. I have other poly friends who have been married to one person or in a triad. If there's a serious, ceremonial, commitment, then it's still a marriage no matter what it looks like. Again, the biggest issue is the legal problem of bigamy because you can only gain marriage benefits with one opposite-sex partner. So I guess if you want to be all equal (not just one primary relationship), you should probably not bring legal marriage into it at all or that could definitely be cause for jealousy.

Whether or not multiple-partner relationships will become accepted to any degree in society remains to be seen. As for me, I think I'm done with it.

[peggygee]

At least as we discussed in my Sociology of the Family class, the numbers are about the same for the length of time people have been living together ~ i.e. the "seven year itch" will occur at 4 years into marriage if you were living together for 3 years before that. This is why it appears as though couples who live together prior to marriage get divorced earlier.

Personally, I don't believe in divorce. I've known too many kids coming out of it and even if it didn't really screw them up, it destabilizes them. My two housemates who I mentioned in the other thread are both products of divorced parents but they say that it just means they will work that much harder not to end up like their parents.

Obviously, there are cases when divorce is healthier than staying together ~ sometimes the best thing you can do with an abusive relationship is to walk away. I've been in an abusive relationship for over two years and I knew it was abusive from the beginning but I stuck with it out of confused feelings of obligation to help .........

A marriage certificate isn't a piece of paper that says "I love this person". A marriage is as much for the community as it is for the individuals. As my mother's note in the laundry room said, "Love is not a feeling to be felt, but an action to be learned." In the abusive relationship I was in, "I love you" was said a lot, especially in the aftermath of a fight but despite the profession of feeling, the respect and commitment wasn't there and that's the definition of love and the basis for a marriage or any relationship.

I'm pretty much with you verbatim on your sentiments.

As a matter of fact it appears as if we are the only two that voted for
living together without being married is wrong, with the caveats that you
put forth.

8)

[Vala_TS]

My parents are divorced, my so called "dad" is a worthless, lying cheating bastard who tried to leave us with nothing. I haven't seen him in over 5 years and I'm glad. Just giving an example of a case where divorce is good.

Vala,

[peggygee]

Whether or not multiple-partner relationships will become accepted to any degree in society remains to be seen. As for me, I think I'm done with it.

I can barely deal with one partner, I doubt that I could deal with multiple
partners.

:lol:

[tgirlzoe]

Whether or not multiple-partner relationships will become accepted to any degree in society remains to be seen. As for me, I think I'm done with it.

I can barely deal with one partner, I doubt that I could deal with multiple
partners.

:lol:

I dunno, in my last relationship, it was a lifesaver. My girlfriend's other partner and I could talk behind her back. I considered him part of the relationship, part of the family, especially when the three of us were living together. Since they had been together for years, we both knew firsthand what it was like to have a relationship with her. We weren't a triad but he and I made pretty good friends and it was good to hang out without her as well. She was such a burden, I couldn't have dealt with her by myself.

Like I said though, after being involved in polyamorous relationships throughout the past five years, I'm ready to settle down. I don't think I'm the kind of person who can settle into a poly marriage or forsake marriage altogether, it's just not me. Hell, I had a hard enough time figuring out my place in society as a femme gay boy (and I didn't, I was a teenage punk rebel), I'm not saying that's why I transitioned, of course, but I rather like just being (somewhat) normal for the first time in my life.

[peggygee]

My parents are divorced, my so called "dad" is a worthless, lying cheating bastard who tried to leave us with nothing. I haven't seen him in over 5 years and I'm glad. Just giving an example of a case where divorce is good.

Vala,

Yeah, you definitely gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them. :wink:

You've gotta know when to get out of a bad or dysfunctional relationship,
and you gotta know if working on some rough patches can fix it.

The real trick is knowing which is which.

[brickcitybrother]

I'm of mixed emotion about this. I think it is crucial to know the person you're planning on making your spouse. I've been married before and did so with my ex-wife. Of course, that did not stop us from becoming divorce. I acknowledge that I wasn't ready to see her for who she really was - I was much more interested in trying to paint a white picket fence reality.

I'm married again, this time we did not 'live' together - though we pretty much stayed at each other's places. But the level of sharing was much deeper than I've done before and I am loving the results.


Generally, do whatever necessary to know yourself and then the person you are considering to be a spouse.



P.S. I'm a huge believer in counseling (individual and marriage) and in having faith in God. We are too complex a species to think you can walk around and not pick up problems and issues that are bigge than you can fix by yourself.


P.P.S. LOL I'm never surprised by the divorce rate. In our society, it makes total sense - as it feeds a person's innate desire to be self-obsessed. The minute anything in our life fails to meet our expectations - society (really the media and the retail corporations that feed them billions) tells us to dump it. House, Car, Clothes, Job, Religion, Town ... is it any wonder we dump each other at the first sign of trouble. Hell, what about parents and the trend of dumping their kids to other relatives and even to the state (boarding schools, treatment programs, etc.) and the reserve trend of kids trying to 'divorce' their parents.

We all should be in awe of the stay-together rate. Think about it.






Returning to the darkness from which he came.

[peggygee]

Generally, do whatever necessary to know yourself and then the person you are considering to be a spouse.



P.S. I'm a huge believer in counseling (individual and marriage) and in having faith in God. We are too complex a species to think you can walk around and not pick up problems and issues that are bigge than you can fix by yourself.




Co-sign.

I get the sense that many people haven't finished doing the introspection
and work on themselves that they need to, to prepare themselves to be
happy with themselves, let alone to be a healthy mate to someone else.

Prior to getting married again, I would do pastoral counselling, or at a
minimum, couples counselling.

While married I would want us to seek marital counselling should we run
into any dfficulties.

Bottom line with an LTR, or marriage, I am committed to putting in all
the work I can to make it succeed. I don't believe a relationship should
be thrown away at the first sign of trouble.

That is with the exception of domestic violence, substance abuse, or
infidelity.

Then all bets are off - as is the relationship.

[tsmandy]

[quote="mbf"][quote=peggygee]

I'm reluctant to be the one to shatter the Richard Gere / Julia Roberts
'Pretty Woman' hopes of anyone. But the harsh reality is that if anything,
a man will be looking for a financial partner, not another dependant on
their W-2 form.
.

Ah but Peggy you underestimate the power of a sweet smile and a killer blow job.

My experience is that it is a rare occurrence for some wealthy client to take care of a working girl and support her out of the business, but its not unheard of. Many providers like the independence it gives them from having a husband who can take care of them. Lots of us are seductive, sweet, and enterprising ladies and if finding a man to take care of us permanently was what we wanted, then we would find it. Finding that sugar daddy, boyfriend, financial slave, etc... is really just as much work as escorting on a semi-regular basis; and that I believe is commonly understood amongst providers.

[tsmandy]

It is illegal for me and my partner to get married. Even if it was legal, I don't see much legitimacy in terms of the state sanctioning my love life. I also think monogamy is stifling and marriage seems less important for us poly people.

It's not illegal, it's just unrecognized because they idiotically consider it a same-sex marriage and idiotically don't recognize same-sex marriages. It's still a marriage, even if the State doesn't grant you the same rights as other married couples.

As for polyamory, I was engaged to my primary a couple years back. I have other poly friends who have been married to one person or in a triad. If there's a serious, ceremonial, commitment, then it's still a marriage no matter what it looks like. Again, the biggest issue is the legal problem of bigamy because you can only gain marriage benefits with one opposite-sex partner. So I guess if you want to be all equal (not just one primary relationship), you should probably not bring legal marriage into it at all or that could definitely be cause for jealousy.

Whether or not multiple-partner relationships will become accepted to any degree in society remains to be seen. As for me, I think I'm done with it.

Well, my partner is a woman, and legally I am female. So, I cannot get married to my partner and receive health benefits, or receive certain tax benefits, etc...

I plan on loving and caring for my partner until one of us is dead or repatriated, at which point I will grieve. Still, I am an atheist (except for rare occasions when mind altering plants instill certain animist longings) and a refugee from a religion which I felt to be oppressive. Since I cannot enjoy the same legal status as hetero people do, and since I have not even the slightest religious inclination, I think the love I give is proof beyond any ceremony or ritual.

I'm in a committed non-monogamous relationship. And that means, that I am committed to open, honest relationships with all my lovers, and I am committed to supporting my lover in her romantic endeavors. I want her to be happy, and if someone else makes her happy, then I figure they deserve my support.

Non-monogamy has worked well for me for a long time, and I cannot imagine sacrificing the love and friendship it has provided.

[Ecstatic]

You could move to Massachusetts, Mandy. Better still, I believe that Oregon is one of a handful of states (such as Rhode Island and Vermont) which will honor a same-sex marriage performed in Massachusetts; in other words, by Massachusetts state law, a same-sex couple from Oregon can marry in Massachusetts without being Massachusetts residents or showing proof of intention to reside in Massachusetts. So it is possible.

[tgirlzoe]

Well, my partner is a woman, and legally I am female. So, I cannot get married to my partner and receive health benefits, or receive certain tax benefits, etc...

Like I said, it's idiotic that the government restricts same-sex marriages. Sorry for assuming your partner was male. I'm bisexual to some degree as well. My ex-fiance was trans as well (FTM) so getting legally married would have involved who had what genders on their licenses, it's so dumb. We were even going to get the certificate while I had an "M" and he had an "F" and then get married for real later.


I'm in a committed non-monogamous relationship. And that means, that I am committed to open, honest relationships with all my lovers, and I am committed to supporting my lover in her romantic endeavors. I want her to be happy, and if someone else makes her happy, then I figure they deserve my support.

Non-monogamy has worked well for me for a long time, and I cannot imagine sacrificing the love and friendship it has provided.

I definitely have seen the ups and downs of it in the past five years. I enjoy being able to be open and to deal with jealousy instead of accepting it. I don't think jealousy is healthy in any relationship. I think polyamory encourages openness and honesty, which are good. I also have a tendency to sleep with my friends, failing to draw a clear distinction between friends and lovers, and most poly people I know have similar relationships for better or worse.

I just don't think it's for me anymore. I had this discussion last month with a friend of mine who is also going through a lot of the same stuff I am ~ moving from polyamory back to monogamy. I spent five years involved with it and several relationships in addition to my two primaries in that time. I gave it a shot but it's just time for me to move on and settle down, most likely with one man.

[Tomfurbs]

If both people in a partnership are agnostic and financially independent enough, I cannot see why 'Marriage' should matter. In fact, you could argue that marriage would go against their principles.

[tsmandy]

You could move to Massachusetts, Mandy. Better still, I believe that Oregon is one of a handful of states (such as Rhode Island and Vermont) which will honor a same-sex marriage performed in Massachusetts; in other words, by Massachusetts state law, a same-sex couple from Oregon can marry in Massachusetts without being Massachusetts residents or showing proof of intention to reside in Massachusetts. So it is possible.

Well I used to live in Boston, but the winter was just a tad bit harsh for my warm blood. I live in Washington, not Oregon, so unfortunately the recent amendments which would allow for equality without marriage (a strange sort of Plessy Vs. Ferguson law, but better than nothing I suppose) don't apply.